7 Things You Need to Stop Thinking as a Marketer (WL&WDJ)

Summary

Brain Driven Brands: Episode Summary

Episode Title: 7 Things You Need to Stop Thinking as a Marketer (WL&WDJ)
Release Date: February 6, 2025
Host: Sarah Levinger
Guest: Nate Legos

---

In this enlightening episode of Brain Driven Brands, host Sarah Levinger teams up with Nate Legos to debunk seven prevalent misconceptions in the marketing world. Through candid conversations and real-world examples, they provide valuable insights aimed at helping marketers refine their strategies for greater efficiency and effectiveness.

---

1. We Control Demand

Key Discussion:
Marketers often believe that by running ads, they can directly generate and control consumer demand. However, Sarah and Nate argue that demand is inherently driven by consumers' intrinsic needs and desires, not by marketing efforts alone.

Notable Quote:
Nate emphasizes, “We don't control that [consumer needs].” (04:23)

Insight:
The hosts clarify that what marketers often refer to as "demand generation" is more accurately described as "top of funnel advertising." Instead of trying to create demand, marketers should focus on increasing visibility and awareness among audiences who already possess latent demand for their products.

---

2. More Budget Equals More Sales

Key Discussion:
A common belief is that increasing the advertising budget will proportionally boost sales. While Sarah acknowledges that, with strong foundational strategies, a higher budget can lead to more sales, Nate counters that indiscriminate spending often results in wasted resources.

Notable Quote:
Nate states, “More ad spend just burns cash faster.” (09:21)

Insight:
Effective budget allocation requires strategic investment in messaging, creative quality, and targeting. Simply pouring more money into ads without optimizing these elements can lead to diminishing returns.

---

3. If Our Ad Gets Engagement, It Must Be Working

Key Discussion:
High engagement metrics, such as likes and comments, are frequently misconstrued as indicators of ad success. Sarah and Nate highlight that engagement does not always translate to sales, questioning the reliability of these metrics.

Notable Quote:
Nate shares his skepticism, “There’s no way to prove if one ad that gets a lot of engagement is providing some sort of, like, lift for the other ads that are getting sales.” (12:16)

Insight:
Marketers should prioritize metrics that directly correlate with business goals, such as conversion rates and return on ad spend (ROAS), over superficial engagement figures.

---

4. Retargeting Will Fix Our Low Conversion Rates

Key Discussion:
Retargeting is often touted as a silver bullet for improving conversion rates. However, the hosts argue that in the current marketing landscape, retargeting alone is insufficient to address deeper issues affecting conversions.

Notable Quote:
Nate cautions, “Retargeting is not going to fix your low conversion rates on any ad.” (15:10)

Insight:
Effective conversion optimization requires a holistic approach, addressing factors such as user experience, product-market fit, and persuasive communication, rather than relying solely on retargeting tactics.

---

5. Our Best Customers Come from Our Paid Ads

Key Discussion:
There is a prevalent assumption that the most valuable customers are acquired through paid advertising channels. Sarah challenges this by sharing data showing that while best customers may originate from ads, their true value often materializes over an extended period.

Notable Quote:
Sarah reveals, “Our best customers technically do come from an ad, but it takes them 12 months to evolve into one.” (16:39)

Insight:
Marketers should consider the long-term value and referral potential of customers, recognizing that initial acquisition channels may not fully capture their ongoing contribution to the business.

---

6. More Creative Testing Equals Better Results

Key Discussion:
The mantra of incessant creative testing is prevalent in marketing circles. However, Sarah and Nate argue that quality trumps quantity, and excessive creative variation can dilute messaging effectiveness.

Notable Quote:
Nate asserts, “I disagree because in my experience volume based accounts do better when we put in precision based messaging over just drastic amounts of creative testing.” (20:11)

Insight:
Focusing on precise, resonant messaging tailored to target audiences is more effective than generating a high volume of creatives without strategic direction.

---

7. Facebook/Meta Will Optimize for Us

Key Discussion:
Many marketers rely on platforms like Facebook or Meta to autonomously optimize their ad campaigns for desired outcomes. The hosts contend that these platforms prioritize their own revenue over marketers' objectives, rendering automatic optimization unreliable.

Notable Quote:
Nate explains, “Meta is not here to help you. They’re here to make sure that you get at least a little bit of what you need so that they can get more of what they need.” (25:43)

Insight:
Marketers should adopt a proactive stance in campaign management, leveraging platform tools judiciously while maintaining control over strategy and execution to align with their specific business goals.

---

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Sarah and Nate advocate for a more nuanced and strategic approach to marketing. By challenging entrenched beliefs and encouraging marketers to focus on foundational elements—such as effective messaging, strategic budgeting, and understanding customer behavior—they provide a roadmap for achieving sustainable growth and meaningful engagement.

Final Thought:
As Nate aptly puts it, “We listen and we don't judge,” reinforcing the podcast's commitment to fostering a supportive and insightful community for marketers striving to elevate their brands.

---

Stay Connected:
For more insights and detailed discussions, follow Sarah Levinger on The Tactical and Practical Podcast and Nate Legos on Twitter.

Sponsored by:
Tether Insights – Understand your consumers better by delving into their emotional, identity-based, and behavioral drivers. Visit tetherinsights.io to learn more.

---

Brain Driven Brands is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast Network.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome back to Brain Driven Brands. Apologies in advance of this episode is a little nasally and a little sniffly, but you're sounding all right. Yeah, yeah, I'm getting over some stuff. I went to the doctor this week and had a fever and had a bunch of stuff going on. So he ran some tests and the doctor said he's like, man, it's just, you know, the way. The way that you write copy is.

[B]

So sick, it's making you physically ill.

[A]

It's just. That's how it's just contagious.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wow, man. That's probably because I listen to Brain Driven Brands and Tactical and Practical all the time.

[B]

Wow. Let me just say that joke, so good landed. Thanks so hard.

[A]

That joke, for the record, is the reason I showed up to the recording.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

The only.

[B]

I don't doubt it reason.

[A]

I was like, I really don't want to pod today. I didn't do my own podcast this week.

[B]

I have a joke that I need to. It needs to be out into the world. I mean, props. Props to you. You're so kind for coming on the show today. Actually. Sick. I don't have an excuse for looking the way I look. Podcasters, I know you can't see me. I'm literally in like the comfiest hat with a poof ball. I have my hair up in braids. Like, I didn't try this week. These flowers, not mine. My husband gave them to me. Everything is looking great behind me. Casey. Yeah. I can't tell you how intense this week has been. I've been pulling these, like 12, 13 hour days, working hard, getting ready for the client stuff. Like, I'm just. I'm like producer Scotty's like, I'm about to shred that mountain. Yes. I look like I'm going skiing. No, Sarah's like, loungewear is ski wear, apparently, because I live in Colorado. So let's be real. That's what we all wear over here. This is Colorado. Chicago is what it is. We're back. We're sick, we're overworked, underpaid. It's fine. We don't get paid for this podcast. That's really what it is.

[A]

Yeah. I have my agent about that.

[B]

You really should actually, you should. Yeah, you should fire agent. I have something we're gonna dive into today. We're doing segments. I've decided we're gonna start doing some interesting segments of things. Mostly because I get bored and Sarah just likes to do weird on my own.

[A]

So episode 55 is a good time to mix up the format of a successful show.

[B]

We're, like, four episodes into the year. Let's mix it up. What's going on? Okay, so have you seen those TikToks that are like, we listen and we don't judge. We listen and we don't judge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Where everybody's, like, confessing things to each other, and they're like, oh, my God, I can't believe you did that. But they can't judge. The day we had our first date, I actually had another date planned. Afterwards, case hours didn't go well. What do you mean? With who? We're just listening. Listening. Because that's the game. That's what we're gonna do. We're gonna listen and not judge, but secretly, we're probably gonna judge. Let's be real, because it's me and Nate. So today we're gonna do marketing confessions edition.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And at the end, I would like to hear one of your confessions, because I think it'd be fascinating.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

To hear. So think about it. I'll give you some time. This time, I'm not gonna spring it on you like I usually do. But today we're gonna dive into the biggest marketing blunders, misconceptions, things that we all just straight up believe in D2C that just aren't real. They're not a thing. Right? So I'm doing this specifically to help. I want. I want to help all the brands out there realize that, like, hey, guys, we've believed some things for a long time that just aren't a thing anymore. Starting with very first one. Lies that marketers tell themselves specifically about paid ads. First lie, we control demand. Yeah, we're listening. And we're not judging to this one, but I hear it almost every single day. This idea of, like, you, we control demand. We run ads, we get sales. That's how this works. And I know. I don't think this is a thing.

[A]

Someone asked me the other day. It's a friend of mine who, like a marketer I respect, was asking me, like, what are we doing to generate more demand this year?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

And I understand what he meant. I understand what he meant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He meant top of funnel awareness. What are we doing to get in front of more people?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's different than generating demand.

[B]

Than generating demand. There's a difference.

[A]

If it was up to me to generate demand, I'd be like, I don't know. Can we do anything to make men feel more insecure? Because they would buy themselves accessories that make them feel confident, more truth. Very true. We do not control the real needs of people. The needs that we talk about here all the time of esteem and acceptance and respect and nurturance and. Yep, nurturance.

[B]

Yeah, nurturance. Yeah, sure.

[A]

You know, exactly.

[B]

You're sick today. It's fine. We'll give you a hundred percent.

[A]

We're not controlling that.

[B]

No, you don't control demands.

[A]

I think when people say demand generation, what they mean and what they should be saying is top of funnel advertising.

[B]

Yes. Acquisition. There's basically two types of marketing in these days. Acquisition and retention. That's it. We don't have top of funnel, mid funnel, bottom of funnel anymore. The whole thing just got blended in Covid and specifically when we lost tracking on anybody. So, yeah, guys, I'm really sorry. We listen, we don't judge if you believe this currently. I'm sorry, you don't control demand. And that. That's okay. It's okay to think that. But that's not kind of how humans work. So in general, this is one of those ones I wish we would let go this year.

[A]

Yeah, and let me highlight the point of. It doesn't matter because, like, you're probably already selling something in a category that has enough demand for you guys to do very well.

[B]

A hundred percent. Yeah.

[A]

These categories are massive increased demand for watches this year. I just need to sell more of them. Those are different things.

[B]

Demand is already there. So oftentimes people will come in and do consulting calls with me and they'll always go straight towards like, well, we need to start generating more demand or they want to get in front of a specific demand. And I have to gently tell them it doesn't matter if, if people are searching for a product like yours, if they're not ready to buy or they can't afford it, it doesn't matter how much demand you're generating or getting in front of. You have to wait until the consumers are ready. Right. You have to just wait. Now this is interesting because if there's latent demand, then it's a little bit different, Right. Because your job is to get in front of them at the right month. Have we talked about latent demand? We should probably do an episode on that one.

[A]

No.

[B]

So I'm assuming you know what it is.

[A]

I know. Yeah, I. I know exactly what you mean. But for, for our listeners that might not know. Okay, maybe explain it.

[B]

Just to explain it. Latent, latent demand is the desire for a product or service that's like not currently available Right. So it's. It's demand for something that, like, the consumer can't afford. It's preemptive demand, basically. It's something that they measure in economics. Right? So say, like, a customer wants a product that's, like, not available in their area. That's kind of like a latent demand. Or a customer wants, like, a product that's something they can't afford. Latent demand. Something that doesn't exist. Latent demand. So there's a demand for it. They just can't get it.

[A]

Got it. Is it on a individual level, like, I want, you know, something that I can't afford personally, but it is available if you can afford it, or is it something that, like, doesn't exist yet, or is it available to anyone yet?

[B]

It can be both. It can be both. So it basically just means.

[A]

Yeah, I knew what that means.

[B]

Customers want it. Customers want it, but they just can't get it. So I tell people this. When you're crafting your marketing strategies, right, you should have ads that speak to all different. What would you call that? Like, purchasing behaviors. So we talked about this a long time ago. There's always triggering events, and you should run ads to those. And there's always some sort of expiration phase. You should run ads to those. You gotta run ads to the evaluation phase and then to the purchase phase. I have an episode on this if you guys want to go listen to that one. But running ads to all these different phases is basically marketing towards latent demand. So if you're marketing an exploration phase, you're marketing to people who are in this process where it's like, I can't afford it, or I can't find it, or I'm still trying to figure out how to get it type of a thing. That's what you're marketing towards.

[A]

All roads lead back to when, huh?

[B]

Yes. Hey, we got to do another episode on when. Go listen to the when episode. You should not be marketing to who. You should be listening. Marketing to when. Go listen to that episode, because that was a good one. Okay.

[A]

All right. That was number one. I think we gotta fly through these quicker.

[B]

Well, there's only three, because then I want to hear your confession.

[A]

Oh, I thought there was seven.

[B]

Well, there's supposed to be seven, but we might just stick with three. This is what I'm saying. I get on these episodes, and I make decisions as I go.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Producer Scotty says the when episode was November 5th. So if you're looking for that one, go listen to it. November 5th, there's supposed to be seven. You're right. All right, number two. Jeez. All right. So lots of people believe this, and I hear it deeply in their souls. More budget equals more sales. No, I'm trying real hard not to judge this one, but this technically not true in particular aspects. I think if you have, like, a good offer, good messaging, good, like, attention focused marketing, then maybe you might be able to make this true. But, like, more ad spend just burns cash faster. Right. Especially if it's not efficient spend. I don't know.

[A]

I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

[B]

Okay, I'm ready. Bring it at me.

[A]

I mean, like, assuming you have the foundations in place.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Then yes. More budget should equal more sales. Unless you've truly tapped out your market, which none of us have.

[B]

Yep, yep, yep.

[A]

But I think what you're getting at is, like, budget's not the only thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And is arguably the last piece of the puzzle you need.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think too many people think that we just need to dump cash into this, which is part of the volume game. I think if we just continuously upgrade everything, we just increase volume on everything, spend creative creators, all kinds of different things, then it will work. And oftentimes that's not.

[A]

Yeah, you got to be good at it. Which is something that never gets talked about in, like, any aspect of life, which pisses me off.

[B]

You kind of have to just be good at this.

[A]

Yeah. And, like, I get a lot of these questions sometimes, and I'm like, hey, I think the playbook to DTC is, like, pretty much out there at this point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no secret sauce.

[B]

We've already done this. Yeah.

[A]

No one's doing anything that revolutionary. If you've listened to technical and practical, I've laid it all out for you. And, like, if it's not working, you might just not be that good at it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, in. In my experience, I feel like the more budget you add to, more. More spend you add to these ad accounts, the more expensive it gets. Like, you're just spending, spending, spending, spending, spending. It just gets more and more and more and more expensive because you're just inflating everything. But I mean, to your point. Yeah. If you know what you're doing, there are ways to make it much more efficient. Most of the time, though, I find this to be incorrect. Depending on the size of the brand, you might be the size that it doesn't matter anymore. You also might just be in a really cool industry that makes it easy to spend.

[A]

We're also like. What I think we've seen is, like, we're getting better. We're getting better at executing our marketing tactics faster than we're increasing our budget.

[B]

Very true. Yeah. Well, that's half of it. You guys have stuff outside of the.

[A]

It works out that when we do increase budget, sales go way up.

[B]

But it's like.

[A]

Well, yeah, it's because we're doing all the foundational work beforehand. It's not just because the increase in budget.

[B]

I'm gonna listen and not judge you for your original stance on this. Okay, number three. Jeez. We're rolling right through. Here we go. If our ad gets engagement, it must be working. This is not something I've heard in a long time, but recently, last week, I had somebody come in and say, well, this one ad gets a lot of comments on it. They're always good. People are really involved in it, but it doesn't get a lot of sales. But we're not worried because it must be attributing to, like, they must be seeing other ads and coming in through those. I don't know how I feel about that.

[A]

Me neither.

[B]

I have a tough time when people ask me, is that true? I'm like, I don't. I don't know.

[A]

I mean, I'm on the fence on the whole theory of attribution.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As a general principle.

[B]

Yeah. I would agree.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I would agree with that. I. I have a tough time with this one because there's no way to prove it currently.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no way to prove if one ad that gets a lot of engagement is providing some sort of, like, lift for the other ads that are getting sales. I don't know. Now, I could say anecdotally, when I load in nine statics, which is what we usually do when we're doing research with these. With the brands that I work with. Usually.

[A]

Love that you do a batch of nine and not ten, by the way.

[B]

Is that weird for you? I love that I've had someone tell me their OCD gets, like, triggered when they get ads from us because they're like, nine.

[A]

Yeah. Nine is a ridiculous number of ads to launch at once.

[B]

Hey, that's on purpose. It's on purpose. We're doing three nuanced language tests per individual emotion that we find. There's a reason I do this. It's not just because they're a picked nine. Anyways. Regardless, I find it fascinating because anytime I load these ads into the ad account, if they start turning off Ones that are low performers for some reason. In some brand accounts, the top performers stop producing. I don't know what this is, but I've seen it in just a few ad accounts here and there throughout, like, couple months. Every couple months, I'll have one that's like, well, everything was doing good, and then we turned off the low performers, and now the. The top performers aren't working anymore. I'm not sure why this happens, but I've heard a lot of people talking about.

[A]

Yeah, a little bit.

[B]

It's weird. So I don't understand it.

[A]

You know, we track what we call real roas internally, which is.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

You explain ad spend by product or collection divided by revenue of that product or collection, and we'll see that, like, is not correlated with Facebook or triple whale metrics. So there will be times where, like, I'll kill an ad that Facebook says, performing terribly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'll turn it off. And then sales of that product go way down, even though the other ads promoting that product are. Have a higher or a lower gaac. Better return on ad spend.

[B]

So somebody tweet at us and tell us if you know anything from Meta about this phenomenon, Because I've seen it often. Like, you know, not often enough that it's concerning, but often enough that I'm like, this has got to be a thing.

[A]

Well, that's why I think attributions.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's like, you don't know. You don't know anything. Facebook, you know, like six things.

[B]

Poor Facebook. They're trying so hard to know things. We listen and we don't judge. I'm just gonna keep saying it because it's fun. We listen and we don't judge. Okay.

[A]

After six minutes of judging of exclusively.

[B]

I'm only judging because I'm trying to help. Okay. Number four, I feel triggered. Okay. Retargeting will fix our low conversion rates. This is interesting because I think what they mean by retargeting, because again, I had this pulled. I basically had Chat go and do, like, an analysis of some tweets that I was looking at, and this is retargeting. I think what they mean is, like, trying to, I don't know, go after sales in particular, because obviously we don't have retargeting anymore. So I think still. Yeah. Do people still do it? Maybe they do, and I just don't know that they're trying.

[A]

I think you're. You probably don't know. There's a community of media buyers that are still doing this stuff. Like, it's 2015 and so confident that, like, they're doing things the right way.

[B]

Oh, okay. Well, maybe that's why. Maybe that's why chat was, like, retargeting. I was like, chat, that's 20. Nobody retargets anymore. Apparently they do. Oh, my God. Well, this is why I'm concerned is because retargeting is not going to fix your low conversion rates on any ad. Like, it doesn't matter if you retarget anybody anyways. Wow. Okay. I didn't know that. Now I'm really listening and trying not to judge. It's fine if you can run your ads any way you want if it's working for you, great. I'd be surprised if anybody is actually seeing that work for them in 2025. Okay. Still trying to listen with empathy number five. Our best customers come from our paid ads. This I find an interesting concept. Do you see that your best customers came in from an ad. That'd be interesting to study.

[A]

Stronger correlation of what product they buy first.

[B]

Oh, whoa. Okay.

[A]

It turns them into a better customer in the future rather than they came in 12 months.

[B]

Whoa. Okay. You guys have the most data. I love it. I love that you're like, data heads, like I am. Okay, interesting. So your best customers technically do come from an ad, but it takes them 12 months to evolve into one.

[A]

Yeah, fascinating.

[B]

And. And is that. How can you speed up that efficiency? Because 12 months is a long time to wait for somebody to start purchasing more.

[A]

Yeah, we haven't much. I think it's hard for the category. But for us also, like, we're fine with waiting on that because a lot of the repeat customers who are buying today bought a year ago and bought 18 months ago. So, like, it's all happening at once now for us. But, yeah, our LTV takes a year to, like, have impactful growth.

[B]

That is nuts. Okay, well, and this goes back to something that we were talking about a couple episodes ago, which was, are your best customers really your best customers? Right. Is your best customer somebody who buys a lot? Or is your best customer the person who bought for her son who then brought in, like, 18 other customers? Yeah, I want to know now. I need. We. I need us to study this, like, for a reason.

[A]

I still don't know that answer.

[B]

I need to know. Like, I don't know why it's bugging me, but I'm like, I need to know.

[A]

Yeah. Or like, I actually talked to a customer, like, a month ago. Cause I'm trying to do that.

[B]

These Days, and you should probably do that these days.

[A]

His girlfriend or wife had bought him the first watch, and then he's bought, like, seven.

[B]

See, that's what I'm saying.

[A]

So on paper, it's like he's the best customer, but it's really like, no, she's the girl.

[B]

I need. Like, the best. Yeah, you need to market to her because she's the one that brings in all the cash by way. So that I'll get it. I think it'd be interesting to segment them out. So technically speaking, you have, like, two high LTV groups. One who brings in a lot of customers and one who brings in a lot of sales. That's probably what you'd want to study there. So. Yeah, I know tangent on this side, but tactically, because this is sometimes a tactical podcast. I would love to. It's not practical at all. I would love for somebody to go study in their own brand to see who's our high LTV customer and who brought that customer in. Because if it was a person, if it was word of mouth, I want to see if that person is, like, crushing it for them still. Because I don't think people are tracking this.

[A]

Do you know what I think about all the time with this? Another reason I think attribution is a myth.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Whenever I buy something from, like, for me, like, I bought a cowboy hat, I can't stop talking about it.

[B]

Cowboy, cowboy hat.

[A]

Asked my wife what she thought about it before I bought it. If she hated it, I wouldn't have bought it.

[B]

That's true. So true. She's really strong.

[A]

Yeah, but, like, that's not showing up on your attribution platform.

[B]

No, no. And that there's. It'd be difficult to get that information without running some sort of a survey or. Yeah, it'd be interesting to figure out how to get that information. But yes, that. I can't tell you how much influence spouses, partners, relationships have over the stuff that you buy. And if you change relationships at a specific time of the year, you're also going to drastically, like, change all of your behaviors as well. So fascinating stuff. Okay. Okay. Number six of, like, the lies that I really, really wish that we would stop believing. But I'm probably. I'm going to try really hard not to judge for it. This one is triggering. I can't judge. I can't. Okay, I'm gonna listen and not judge. More creative testing equals better results.

[A]

Yeah, this one sucks.

[B]

I'm gonna try really hard.

[A]

You know what? I'm judging on this One. I made it six of the way through. I'm judging on this one.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Creative volume I don't think should be your goal.

[B]

I don't think so either. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to everybody out there who does creative volume testing. For some people it's working. And I think it's probably more to do with your message and your offer and the fact that you're positioned incredibly well in your own market than it does with your volume. But that's obviously Sarah's take. Don't judge. This I find so interesting because I've noticed a lot of like key players in the industry right now are shifting their view towards this like rhetoric of, of like you should do volume. You should go for volume. This is what's coming up in 2025. Everybody should go for volume. I disagree mostly because a lot of these brands can't afford to. I also disagree because in my experience volume based accounts do better when we put in precision based messaging over just drastic amounts of creative testing. I don't believe that the algorithm is prioritizing the same style. I guess of, of like feed for ads that they are for organic. On the organic side, you kind of have to do volume. You really need to be posting a lot all day long.

[A]

Organic has to be volume strategy every day.

[B]

Yeah, volume for organic, but not for ads. And here's the reason why I truly believe this. This exists in the ad world. We get to put spend behind what we do. And we also are in this very strange spot where we're competing with just a very select group of other brands who also do the same thing that we do. So on the organic side, depending on what's inside that, that piece of creative, you're going to be competing with all sorts of different things and the feed is just going to start spitting it out to people who have similar identities. Right. They're aligned on content as much as that particular piece pieces for ads. It's just different. Like we're, it doesn't work exactly the same because we're all competing with industry and by spend.

[A]

So here's the two things in common with everyone I see promoting creative Volume. One, they either are the people that sell you creative, so oh, huge grain of salt. Two, or very, very true, which doesn't mean it's totally bad, but like it's.

[B]

A part of it. It's a part of what makes the system run that way.

[A]

It's a part of it. It's brands that are so big that spending half a million dollars on Creative production this year doesn't make a dent in the piano.

[B]

Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it's not going to be this, this giant lift for them. And that's why I said at the very beginning, like, yeah, so it's like a lot of brands can't afford.

[A]

That's great. But like we can't afford to, to do that. We have a budget for content this year. It's not half a million.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I, I think this, this one's so triggering because it just, ah. In my experience, it's so much better to start with efficiency and then scale out from there. If you really want to do volume. If you're just like, I really want to have a lot of ads in my account so we have a higher chance of figuring things out. I would a hundred percent encourage you to start with messaging first, then start with figuring out which message, which target our like audience, which avatar and which offer. Figure that out first and then go for volume. The guys that I've noticed that do really, really, really well with volume are usually people who are incredibly attuned to the messages they need to say. They just know what to say. So it works, it works for them, doesn't work for everybody. If you haven't figured out what to say and when. Yeah, we listen to them. We don't judge. Okay, number seven, last one on here. I think this will be really interesting. Want to get your take on that Facebook or meta or wherever you're you're marketing on these days that they will optimize for us. Right. Meaning they will go find the traffic we need. I don't think this is true, but I won't judge. You know, if that's what you believe, that's totally fine.

[A]

I've been on a big like creative does the targeting kind of kick for the last few years and like we, we see that personified is the right word. We see that like come to life in. We don't segment our campaigns by gender, but our campaigns that are written for women versus our campaigns that are written for men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The purchase splits on the back end are like 9010 to whoever we wrote it to. And it's like really fascinating to be like, yeah. And then like impressions follow that and yeah, so meta won't do that for you. You gotta know how to create visual and written content that's designed to capture the interest of the market. You're going after a hundred percent. But if you do that, then Facebook will find them for you.

[B]

Yes, well, and that's just it I've seen too many brands try and turn on, like, you know, ASC and expected all these different things to be magic. Like, that's the mechanical, like, I don't know, segmentation of it is going to help us. It's just going to be magic and work. And then all of a sudden it just started spinning wildly. Like, all of a sudden everything got more expensive. It tanked the row as the whole account went down. And it's like the technical stuff is slowly being taken away from the marketers anyways. Like, Meta's already putting all kinds of things in place. That's like, you don't control any of this anymore. So in general, I would say it's okay to believe this, but you gotta be careful because at the end of the day, they are optimizing for their, like, Meta's revenue. They're optimizing for their revenue benefit, not for our.

[A]

Yeah. See their latest earnings, like, yeah, exactly.

[B]

But it's doing all right on the cash side. They're. They're flowing over there. So. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. For anyone that didn't have a Q a good Q4 advertising on Meta, don't look at their earnings call from two days ago. Okay.

[B]

Don't do it. It'll just.

[A]

They came in like $2 billion over or something. It's like, oh, my God.

[B]

Okay, this is what I'm saying. Like, Meta's not here to help you. They're here to make sure that you get at least a little bit of what you need so that they can get more of what they need. And that's fine. Meta is a business. They're not like some evil conglomerate. They're a business, just like all the rest of us are in business. It's fine. The end of the day, though, if you felt called out in this episode, I apologize. But also maybe good, like, well, I'm going to need to fix some of these things.

[A]

I think the underlying thing here to all these. And then I do have something that I believe that I'm interested to get here.

[B]

Okay, I'm ready for your confession.

[A]

But I think, like, the underlying thing on all these is like, yeah, kind of if you're really good at what you do already.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, if you're good at creating messages that resonate with the right people at the right time to persuade them to buy your products, then, yeah, all these things are probably going to be fine for you.

[B]

Yep. Yep.

[A]

But those things alone are not what makes a great brand or not what's going to make revenue go up. You got to get really dialed in on who you're messaging to and when to.

[B]

You still need good humans. We still need good humans behind the screens. Like, we can't do it just on the technological side. You have to have a smart thinker, the background. Am I gonna get triggered by this confession?

[A]

I don't know. This is. This isn't something we've talked about. Okay.

[B]

Okay. I'm gonna get my best reaction face. Ready? Here we go.

[A]

All right. When someone comes to our website. Yeah, I believe that I. I have almost no control over whether or not they buy. Like, we can put the best content we possibly can. We can test messaging all day that does, you know, improve per performance. But at the end of the day, I think, like, it's on that person. But I think I have a lot of influence over what they buy. So if they're going to buy.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I think I can merchandise our site, get them to buy whatever I want.

[B]

That's a really strong belief. Like, why. Okay, I need to know why you think this. Why do you think this?

[A]

Because we've done it.

[B]

Okay, but have you? That's my question.

[A]

We've gotten to.

[B]

Do you just think you have the.

[A]

End of a quarter, the end of a sales period, and we see like, hey, this watch really under sold. We have 1500 extra of them.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

And we're like, oh, shoot, that's a lot. Like, we got to figure out what to do now. And just based on merchandising and changing the watches around that watch, we're not discounting it more, we're not doing anything, but we've been able to get way more people to buy it just by merchandising it differently and putting higher priced watches around it.

[B]

Yeah, I would tend to. I would tend to agree with you, honestly. And this sounds weird because Sarah is all about the fact that, like, we don't control almost anything. Like marketers are control behavior. We don't control demand, we don't control humans. We're just right time, right place. Half the time it's luck. Most of this right outside of that, like, core belief on the acquisition side, if you get someone into your ecosystem and you could pull them through specific, like traffic channels, there are ways that you can get somebody to buy something they wouldn't originally buy based upon how you frame it. So I would agree. I would agree with this confession. I think you are right. I think most marketers.

[A]

Sarah thinks Nate's right.

[B]

I think you are correct. You know, for once in my life, I. Well, I Think you're correct a lot of the times, but this, this, yeah, this is not really a phenomenon. Once you are in the ecosystem, whoever is presenting the options or presenting the actual product itself, you get to decide how that person experiences it. You are basically, you're a choice architect at that point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is where I don't think enough marketers spend enough time training themselves to be choice architects. If you really want to increase your sales and decrease your cost, don't focus on acquisition as much as you do. Like the ecosystem that they experience after they come in the door.

[A]

Yeah, smart.

[B]

We got to do a whole episode of that because that would be a really good one to go.

[A]

And like, it matters a lot for us at least. Like we have a. A piece you count and like at the end of every quarter there's guaranteed at least one item that's like, yeah, we were supposed to sell 3,000 of those and we sold 400. Like, shoot. But it's surprising how quickly we can get them to move, like once we realize it and make the changes.

[B]

Choice architecture. Okay, I'm going to write that down. We're going to do an entire episode on choice architecture. If you guys want to hear that in the next couple of weeks. Go review this podcast and subscribe and follow and do whatever you do. Where can people find you if they want to follow you when you're not sick?

[A]

The Tactical and Practical podcast.

[B]

There it is.

[A]

It's pretty good.

[B]

A good one. I love it.

[A]

I think so. And then at Nate Legos on Twitter.

[B]

Hey yo Nate Legos. If you want to follow anything that Sarah is doing at Sarah Levenger everywhere that you can consume content. I'm hoping to have more episodes up on YouTube eventually when I have time and I'm not working 13 hour days. Also, this episode is sponsored by Tether Insights. If you guys want to understand your consumers better, get inside their minds and understand the emotional, the identity based and the behavioral things that are happening before, during and after purchase. I study people over at tetherinsights IO come find us. Have a lovely day everyone.

[A]

The Brain Driven Brands podcast is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast Network.

[B]

Biasing Sit back Bio.