Did This Guy Really Invent a Psychology-Based Popup?? (Feat: Shaan Arora)

Summary

Brain Driven Brands: Did This Guy Really Invent a Psychology-Based Popup?? (Feat: Shaan Arora) Released on November 12, 2024

---

Introduction In this episode of Brain Driven Brands, host Sarah Levinger delves into the innovative world of neuromarketing with special guest Shaan Arora, the co-founder and CEO of Alia—a groundbreaking Shopify app designed to revolutionize how e-commerce brands engage with their customers through psychologically driven popups. The conversation explores the intersection of psychology and marketing, unveiling how Alia's unique approach not only boosts conversion rates but also fosters deeper emotional connections between brands and their audiences.

---

Guest Introduction and Backstory Sarah begins by warmly welcoming Shaan Arora, expressing her excitement about his unique application of popups in marketing. Shaan shares his inspiration for founding Alia, rooted in his personal experience helping his mother's Indian clothing business transition from a physical storefront in Boston to an online presence. Observing the stark difference in conversion rates between the in-store experience and the online store, Shaan identified a critical gap: the lack of emotional engagement in e-commerce.

Shaan Arora [05:32]: "I realized by going to her store and then looking at the online store, like, there was no personality, right? There was no emotional connections being drawn."

Shaan's journey from a college student and Shopify developer to launching Alia with the help of his friends underscores the app's authentic origins and practical effectiveness. Today, Alia serves over 400 brands, enhancing their customer engagement through sophisticated popup strategies.

---

The Psychology Behind Alia's Popup Strategy The core of Alia's innovation lies in transforming traditional popups into tools for storytelling and emotional engagement. Shaan explains that while most popups aim solely to capture email leads with offers like discounts, Alia integrates educational content that immerses visitors in the brand's story.

Sarah Levinger [04:24]: "I'm trying not to make this like a 40 minute long podcast. Let's go over."

By repositioning the opt-in to precede the educational content, Alia leverages psychological principles like confirmation bias and reciprocity. Initially, visitors are asked for their email and SMS in exchange for a discount. Once they agree, they are invited to upgrade their discount by engaging with the brand's story, thereby deepening their emotional investment.

Shaan Arora [09:21]: "So like signup used to be the end of the educational flow. Now signup is in the beginning."

This method contrasts with traditional popups, which often suffer from low conversion rates due to their intrusive nature and repetitive use without added value. Alia's approach not only captures leads more effectively but also enhances the average order value (AOV) and purchase conversion rates significantly.

---

Key Psychological Tactics Utilized by Alia

1. Confirmation Bias: By asking users to make an initial small commitment (providing their email and SMS), Alia leverages the human tendency to remain consistent with previous actions. This makes users more likely to continue engaging with the brand by upgrading their discount after the initial commitment.

   Sarah Levinger [10:12]: "You're using a serious amount of confirmation bias... most people have a really hard time not continuing the behavior that they started with."

2. Reciprocity: Offering educational content and increased discounts in return for deeper engagement creates a sense of indebtedness, motivating users to reciprocate by making purchases.

   Sarah Levinger [22:44]: "Reciprocity, right? So people are much more likely to give because you've given them an interesting experience."

3. Priming and Framing: Alia strategically frames questions and information to align with the user's identity and values. For instance, using identity-focused questions helps in self-qualification, ensuring that only genuinely interested customers proceed further.

   Sarah Levinger [20:00]: "You're asking people to self qualify... like do you identify with this product."

4. Emotional Engagement: Incorporating founder or customer stories within popups transforms transactional interactions into meaningful connections, enhancing brand loyalty and increasing the likelihood of repeat purchases.

   Shaan Arora [25:39]: "Put it in every part of your brand. Put it in every touch point."

---

Performance Metrics and Success Rates Alia's innovative popup strategies have yielded impressive results. Typically, the opt-in rates range between 10-16%, significantly higher than the industry standard of 3-6%. Furthermore, when users engage with the educational flow, the purchase conversion rate jumps to approximately 20%, and the AOV increases by about 20%.

Shaan Arora [13:51]: "Typically like we'll see an increase in AOV... AOV jumps about 20%."

These metrics demonstrate the effectiveness of integrating psychological principles into marketing tools, transforming mundane popups into powerful brand-building assets.

---

Strategic Implementation and Best Practices Shaan advises brands to integrate storytelling across all customer touchpoints, not just within popups. Whether through social media, packaging, or advertising, consistent narrative elements amplify the emotional connection and reinforce the brand's identity.

Shaan Arora [24:51]: "Put the founder story... Just have it in every part of your brand."

For brands without a compelling founder story, Shaan suggests leveraging customer stories that highlight how the brand has positively impacted their lives, further enhancing authenticity and relatability.

Sarah Levinger [25:46]: "If you don't have a founder story that feels big, you can use those [customer stories] as well."

---

Future Directions and Closing Thoughts As the conversation wraps up, Shaan emphasizes the importance of continuous testing and data analysis to refine popup strategies tailored to different industries and customer identities. He encourages brands to experiment with various storytelling elements and identity-focused questions to discover what resonates most with their audience.

Sarah concludes by expressing her admiration for Alia's approach, highlighting the seamless blend of psychology and technology as a model for effective e-commerce marketing.

Sarah Levinger [27:13]: "This is fascinating stuff. Like I said, super psychology focused, super psychology based. So I'm excited to like follow your guys' journey."

Shaan shares his contact information, inviting listeners to follow him on LinkedIn and Twitter to stay updated on Alia's latest developments.

---

Conclusion This episode of Brain Driven Brands offers invaluable insights into the potent combination of psychology and marketing. Shaan Arora’s Alia is pioneering a shift from traditional, often intrusive popups to emotionally intelligent engagement tools that not only capture leads but also build lasting customer relationships. By understanding and applying psychological principles such as confirmation bias, reciprocity, and emotional engagement, Alia demonstrates how brands can achieve higher conversion rates and foster deeper connections with their audience. For e-commerce brands seeking to enhance their marketing strategies, this episode serves as a compelling guide to leveraging neuromarketing for sustained growth and customer loyalty.

---

Follow Shaan Arora:

• LinkedIn: Shaan Arora
• Twitter: @ShaanArora
• Alia Learn: aialearn.com

---

Brain Driven Brands is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast Network. Stay tuned for more episodes that decode the secrets of successful brands through the lens of neuroscience and psychology.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the podcast. Today is going to be a really interesting day because we're chatting with somebody who does something that I honestly don't have, like, a lot of experience in there. For a while, I was doing, like, hardcore WordPress websites, and I have used this particular marketing element before, but you in particular, are using it in a very different way. So welcome to the show. Now, okay, I have a question for you. I've been pronouncing your name Sean. Is that correct? Okay, thank you. I have never seen, like, Sean spelled S H, A, A, N. Yeah, like S H A W, N, S H, A. Okay, thank you. Crap. I can't have you on my podcast and not know how to say your name. Sean.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

Welcome to the show, Sean.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Gosh, I'm excited to chat with you today. I'm excited every day because I just love podcasting and I love talking to cool people. But you're building something really interesting. And you and I connected, I think, on Twitter where we first met each other. But when you started showing me what you're building, my immediate thought, just like, full transparency, was like, I thought we did this before. I thought we've had these in the. In the system before for a very long time. So for anybody who doesn't know what you do, you do something very, very different with this particular tool. And I'm keeping it a secret for a reason, because I just like the suspense. But you do something very different that just kind of, like, I don't even know, like, captivated me. When we started talking about what you're building and how you're building it, I was like, oh, you have so much psychology in what you're building, and I can't get enough of it. So do you want to give people a rundown who you are, what you're building, and then we can kind of dive into the psychology of, like, why it's different.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. Well, thank you for the intro. Thanks for having me. Let it be here. So, yeah, I'm Sean Adora. I'm the co founder and CEO of Alia, and we're a Shopify app sell to Shopify brands as well as any other brand as well. So there's like, any. Anyone on the website can use it. And, you know, the concept is that folks who learn more about a brand, Right. Whether it be about us, Sustainability, mission, products, folks who know. Know more about a brand have a higher purchase conversion rate. Right. But the issue is that people generally don't take the time to learn more About a brand. Right?

[A]

Very true, very true.

[B]

About Us page typically will collect cobwebs, right? Nobody really goes there, but the folks that go there have a very high purchase conversion rate. So I thought how can we gamify this, right? How can we get more people to learn about a brand?

[A]

Gamification, My favorite. Okay, continue. I get excited. Go ahead.

[B]

And I thought that you know, putting it inside of the pop up as one of the users first interactions is, is a, is a great way for, for customers to engage with a brand and for brands to get that purchase conversion to not just happen when people go to the About Ups page but when people and engage with the popup.

[A]

Yes. You guys are literally building LTV level marketing in a pop up. I'm like losing my mind. Okay, so for anybody who didn't catch that this guy makes pop ups like pop ups. And I don't say that like derogatorily. Pop ups are still useful. But the toughest part about pop ups is when they came to the market, which was a long time ago, I mean over a decade ago we've seen popups in the market. People just grabbed like the marketers got so excited about the like the viability of this marketing channel that they put it on everything and it was everywhere. Every single page had a pop up and consumers started seeing them all over the place. And then I think after we got into kind of like primary social media era, the popup started to kind of not work anymore. I heard a lot of people talk about like our pop ups have like a 3% conversion rate. Which I'm like, that's so little. That's like 97% of the people on your site are like get this pop up off of my screen. But you guys, when we went through and actually did like a, I guess a demo of what you are producing, you had something very different for pop ups because again we've only seen them used for one capacity which is like sign up for our newsletter. So can you walk me through? Because it sounds like you guys had a really good backstory of like we're trying to help people understand brand. Like we're trying to help people get emotionally attached to something they just started interacting with. So talk to me more about that because that's, there's so much psychology in that. How did you even get to that like problem solution? I mean that's a very specific niche.

[B]

Yeah, no, I'm glad you asked because it's actually like, like I love telling this story. So I actually started the company while I was in college, so the problem. So I'm 23 right now, but I started the company when I was about 21, and it actually happened because of my mom. So my mom used to sell Indian clothes, right? Like, I'm from Massachusetts, so, like, in. In Boston, she would sell clothes and her. Her. Her in person store is doing well, but it was time to, like, shift online, right? Like, yeah, everyone shipped online, so she did the same. And when she did so, her store was not really performing well. So I kind of came in as her, like, Shopify dev, and I was like, all right, like, what's the difference between her store in person and her store online? And why is the. Essentially the main. The main issue is the conversion rate. Like, why is it so low? And I realized by going to her store and then looking at the online store, like, there was no personality, right? There was no emotional connections being drawn. A lot of times in the store, she would make a sale because of the person that she is, right? Her. Her ability to convince someone to talk about her story, the fabrics, the company, and people absolutely loved it, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, online, we had About Us page, and I tried really hard to make it really pretty and engaging, but nobody was there. And I was like, okay, nobody goes.

[A]

To the about page. I don't know how many times I have to tell D2C brands this. Like, you need to put your brand every. Somewhere else. Don't have a dedicated page. It needs to be. Your story needs to be everywhere. Because humans get so attached to the stories that they hear. So, yeah, okay, continue.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're good. So, yeah, that's kind of how it started, right? I was like, hey, people. Do people shop more often in person when she emotionally engages them online? Nobody's getting emotionally engaged on the website. How can I emotionally engage people but give them a reason to be emotionally engaged? Right? And I was like, let's. Let's give a reward for that. And I have a computer science background. I was in school, so me and my two friends started the company out of school. My mom was my first customer, which I'm super proud about. And since then you scaled and now. Yeah, and then. And then I was like, wow, this seems like. And then it worked. And I was like, wow, this seems like it could actually be a pretty cool use case for a lot of brands. And now We've built over 400 brands and are growing the team and a lot of exciting stuff. But, yeah, like that.

[A]

That's amazing. That's such a good backstory, though. Because again, you had a very specific use case because it was somebody that you obviously loved and wanted to. But it's also something that's interesting. Something I want to pull out specifically is that once people got kind of attached to your mom's story, her store kind of started to take off. It's not that she had any like deep marketing tactics. She wasn't doing CRO yet. She wasn't doing like product testing or like a whole bunch of ads. The only thing that she was like really focused on was as soon as people hear my story, then they buy like it. It's such an easy connect that I think a lot of people in the marketing space just forget that like people are drawn to stories and they also get so emotional attached to them that it's, it's easier for them to justify the purchase because they're like, this is just interesting and I want to support it. I love that style of marketing.

[B]

And so. Yes, yeah. And we've seen also that AOV will go up like while, while purchase can make purchase conversion rate goes up, which I think is the expected one, the unexpected one. And it even surprises me sometimes when I look at data like AOV really shoots up and I think it's like yeah, like tier point, right? Like okay, like yeah, I'm justifying because I'm buying this because I'm also supporting this individual supporting company. So I'm fine spending an extra $50 because like it's going towards a person who I now. Yeah.

[A]

People get so attached to things and they, they've done a lot of studies on the fact that increasing like the depth of your story on a brand drastically changes how people interact with it. Both from like conversion, aov, ltv, all kinds of different things. But in general I think the one that's most important is you actually get people to understand why they should even purchase. Right. You're tapping into a why that they already have, which for most humans is reciprocity. Right. If you give me something, I have a, like a desire to give something back to you that's really deep in the human subgroup, like in the brain. The interesting part is what your mom is giving them is, is just an emotional experience. So you're providing psychological value at the very beginning of the whole entire journey through a pop up that's basically giving a story. It's giving some sort of like a psychological emotional benefit them and in return they want to buy more. They want to, you know, increase the amount of support they're giving to any store that has this on their store. So I can't get enough this. So yeah, that psychological value up front is so massively important for any sort of brand growth and conversion rate. But talk to me, I guess how you're doing this because tactically I'm like it's a pop up. It comes up once, people usually just like click out of it. They just close it. So what are you guys doing that's a little different than that? Like hey, just sign up for our newsletter.

[B]

Yeah, that's a good question. Right, and so we are still a pop up like at the end of the day, like we're still looking to get opt ins. Right. So yes, for most brands what they'll do is they'll let's say offer a discount upfront for opt in. Right? So whether it be 10%, 15%. So a lot of brands do, hey, sign up for SMS and email and get 10% off and then it's hey, do you want to upgrade this discount for 15%?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And then once the site visitor says hey, yeah I do want to upgrade 15% off then we bring in the educational content and it lives inside of the pop up. Right. So like initially when we built the company the opt in rates were not drastically improving simply because we put it at the end of the educational flow. So yeah, sorry, yeah, so like signup used to be the end of the educational flow. Now signup is in the beginning.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So the users already given their email SMS and now it's hey, you already captured their attention, you've already given reward, let's give them customer education for the upgraded discount. And of course they're opting in to do that. Right?

[A]

So like okay, so let me get this straight. Your opt in is at the beginning, so you're asking for email and SMS information and then you're saying through like a nurturance flow, is that right?

[B]

Yeah, so like it's like hey, put in your email SMS for 10%. Great, I've done it. Now this brand asks through, through Alia, do you want to upgrade to 15% if you take one minute learn about this? Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so they can get more if they just like learn more about the brand. Okay, so you guys are using like a serious amount of confirmation bias. So confirmation bias comes in when people commit to one small thing and then you ask them to commit to a few more. Most people have a really hard time not continuing the behavior that they started with. Oh, so smart. Okay, because my initial reaction would be like that's really interesting. Why wouldn't you start the nurturance flow and then ask for something, but you're basically asking for two different things, right? Yeah, Getting asked for just hey, give us your email for discount and then ask you for a secondary like, hey, continue the behavior that you started.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want to go through the nurturance flow and then maybe get a bigger discount at the end? Oh, so much psychology. It's so smart. I can't get it. Okay, all right, continue.

[B]

All right, so yeah, like that, I mean, yeah. And most people as, as, as, as you talking about like the, the idea of like already kind of being bought into it. Right. Are already starting a flow and I'd be curious to hear more of your thoughts on that too. Like, and yeah, like most people actually click on the upgrade, right? It's like the data shows about 87% of people who see that. Do you want to upgrade to a larger discount? 87% of people choose to go for that. The other 13% disclaimer, initial reward. Yeah.

[A]

So 80% extent.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So like, yeah, yeah. Like most people choose to go for the larger reward. So most your site visitors. Yeah, so most your site visitors who will give email SMS will also go through the educational flow.

[A]

That's great. Do you have stats on how many people actually sign up the very first like box they put their email in, they're like, yeah, I want a discount.

[B]

Yeah, it's between, it's 10 to 15. But we've actually been increasing analysis more. 12 to 16.

[A]

Okay. Even that though I've, I have not seen a pop up that has more than 3 to 6% conversions. You guys are like 10 to 15, upwards of 20. I mean even that is massive. But then 80 of those people that come in, depending on how much traffic you have on your site, I mean that could be a lot of, could be a lot of people get to the end of the sequence. And now you've already generated some sort of an emotional connection with the brand just within the span of like, I don't know how long does it take someone to go through the nurturing sequence? It's a couple minutes.

[B]

Like a minute sometimes.

[A]

That is crazy. One minute of nurturing sequence and now we got like 8% of the people opting in for more. That's not, I can't get enough of. This is amazing. Okay, so, all right, so started the brand. Your mom was like good inspiration for it. She saw good results obviously through going through like nurturing sequence. You guys have already tested and figured out if we start with some Sort of like small ask. They will usually confirmation bias just continue their behavior and then they'll go ahead and opt in for the secondary discount. What, what's like the results that you're seeing from this? Because I mean like I said it's a, it's a pop up. That's something that's just kind of coming up and it's just such a small entity, like small but mighty. It just keep coming to mind. To me I'm like, this is crazy how easy this is. So what kind of results are people seeing from these type of nurturance pop ups?

[B]

Yeah, so typically like we'll see an increase in AOV typically like compared to like the normal AOV of a store versus when someone goes through the Alia educational flow, their AOV jumps about 20%. Like increased AOB and sometimes you can get even higher. So yeah, like I say, 20% is like we see on average and it can definitely get higher. So it's like the A Visa. And the second one is like purchase conversion rate. Right. Typically sits around 20% when someone signs up. So 20% of people who go through the nurture flow will convert in that session. So we're just measuring in that session. And of course usually the normal conversion rates like 3 or 4% or even less resource. But like if somebody goes through the flow that jumps to about 20%. So like creating really high intent customers is our goal and we know that customer education and I'm sure you've gone into this much as well. Like you know, the culture education piece really creates a high, high intent and high purchasing customer.

[A]

So. Oh my gosh, I have so many questions. Okay. But I'm trying not to make this like a 40 minute long. 40 minute long podcast. Let's go over. Okay, so you said that you guys were working on a whole bunch of different things and that you might want to chat more about the psychology about specific like elements of the pop up. Do you have anything that you want to focus on? Yeah, I could talk all day long about this stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I guess I have two questions for you. Right. One is like how do you think about the buy in from a customer? Right, like yeah, I guess, like which part of, in your opinion? Right, like what part of the edu. Which, which education do you think creates the highest buy in customers? Like do you think it's founder level story? Do you think it's product story? Do you think it's brand story? Like from your experience, what, which of those do you think would convert the highest for. Let's say a brand in general.

[A]

That's such a good question. I think it depends on industry, product and customer identity. And this is something that I'm currently trying to test a ton with. The brands that I'm working with is like some people depending on what type of product it is, if it's utilitarian or hedonic. Right. So hedonic is this like pleasure focused. So if they're selling candy, it's a very different purchasing mode in the brain. Right. Than it is for somebody who's purchasing like a T shirt or supplements or whatever it is. So it depends on the product. And I think this would be interesting to test because I honestly, I personally believe you can sell any product with emotional marketing. Right. Because I mean liquid death did it like they sell water. It's utilitarian. It only does one thing. Right. But all of their marketing is incredibly emotional. So I think it depends on the product and the industry. But more importantly, I think it. And this is the reason why liquids did it so well. I think it depends on the identity of the customer. Sorry, I'm dying. If you as a brand could make it a part of your research because you have so much data from all these 400 different brands across all kinds of different industries. If you could go through and pull data down on. Okay, everybody in beauty is currently using founder stories or most of them are using founder stories and AOV is higher then a. Then we can make the hypothesis that founder stories work best for beauty brands. Now you'd have to test. Right. You'd have to have the brands, hey, for 30 days, can you guys throw up a product focused one and see how that performs and test and test and test. You'd also have the test time of year. Maybe founder stories work really well closer to Christmas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because people are already kind of in an emotional mode. So that's a tough one to answer.

[B]

I didn't even give you an.

[A]

Yeah, Personally I think you guys probably have enough data that you could probably go through and pull it out now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just say all of the brands in this category are running this type of nurture sequence. So we're going to make a hypothesis to say that one works.

[B]

Okay, that's probably what I would do. Another question, actually. So like I'm not sure you've seen this like a lot of popups. And we do it as well. Have like micro opt in.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like just email and then submit.

[B]

Yeah. Like for example, like when I've been zero foxtrot. Right. Instead of Instead of like the first interaction of the popup being put in your email, the first interaction is do you want 15% off? Right. Then the site visitor has to then click yes, I want 15% off. Right. And that is this one tweak on Twitter. It's like been, it's been like yeah, really famously done by, by actually pretty big agency. And like that one tweak has changed opt in rates a lot. I'm curious like your thoughts on that and like why you think that just having like do you want 50% off? Yes, I do. Will significantly change the opt in versus when you're just like get 15% off and there's an email, text and like an email field. I'm just curious like why you think that's, that's the case.

[A]

I think what's happening in that particular moment? So you have a pop up that pops up on a screen and it just asks a question. You don't even have to put in any email or names or anything. It just says, do you want this? The nice part about doing that is you're basically asking people to self qualify. So anybody who doesn't care right now, meaning they're like probably a new customer, they've never seen you guys before, they're just browsing, they're going to close the pop up and like go away and do whatever else they're doing. Right. But somebody who's been interacting with the brand enough, their warm audience, they're going to see do you want 15% off? And that'll, that'll be enough for them to self qualify and just commit. And again, you guys are working heavily on commitment bias here where people just can't stop doing the behaviors that they're kind of rolling towards. As soon as you start rolling that ball down the hill, people are just going to keep doing it just because they don't want to deviate cognitively. It's very painful for the brain to just stop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People, this is, this is how habits get built, right? So I think it's a little bit of that cognitive bias and I think it's a little bit of self qualified. What do you already identify with? Are you the type of person that is, is, what's the word? Like, are you very sensitive to deals? Like you consider yourself a frugal person and if you do click yes, that's technically what you're asking.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So you guys could test all kinds of these. Instead of saying things like do you want 15% off? You could ask people specifically, do you Identify with this product. Meaning if you're selling, I don't know, like a phone case, then you can have a popup that comes up that says, right. Do you, art. Do you break your phone a lot? Yes or no?

[B]

Yeah. That's huge.

[A]

Yeah, I qualify. You're basically quizzing people to see which identity do you align with. And if you align with the one that is hiov customer for us, you'll keep going. If you don't identify with it, we don't technically need you in the system yet, so I'd be interested. Oh, do you guys have the ability to do quizzes?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we do. Yeah. Yeah, we do. Yeah. And to your point, to your other. The other thing you said, which is really interesting and brands love this. We've tested it extensively and it works. Sometimes it'll actually work. The best is a poll question in the beginning. So, like before they. Even before they. Before they enter their email, before they can even go into the email, like capture state. It's a poll question. For example, there's a brand that sells, like, stuff for baseball players. Right. And the question before they start the email to give their email is, what position do you play first? Baseball. I love this question.

[A]

Oh, my God. Self qualifying. You're doing identity focused marketing.

[B]

Yeah. And like, people, people answer that so often. Like, people are, Yes, I want to, like, I want, I want to tell you. Yeah.

[A]

Like, yeah, it's so strange. Like, yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You see this in just everyday interactions with humans as well. Like, if I asked you, are you an entrepreneur? Right. And you identified with that, you'd get real excited about it. Because I do. People are very much like, Sarah, who are you? And I'll be like, I'm a freaking researcher. That's what I am. Right. That's what I do. People get really deep into their identities and it goes everywhere. So everything they touch now kind of has this. I don't know, it kind of has this air of like, this is who Sarah is. So it kind of bleeds out into all different places of her life. So asking someone, what do you identify with? Naturally creates this open conversation where they're more likely to dive into reciprocity. Right. So the brain will start to just activate all these different heuristics is what we call them, like mental shortcuts. So by asking someone up front, what position do you play? Shortstop, first base, third base? Outfielder, who are you? Type of question. The next thing they see, you've basically primed them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To identify with whatever they're interacting with. And if you identify with something, you have such a higher chance of diving deep into that brand and just like making it a piece of yourself. I can't get enough of it. Okay, yeah, sorry.

[B]

And like for the, for that brand, like the question, right, so we asked that question, right? And then they ask for email, sms and then you say, hey, we want a bigger discount. Right? So folks who, folks who answer that question enter email, SMS and then go through an educational flow. Like I'm sure you can imagine they convert very well because they fund a lot and like they've, they've, they've like, they've, they've honestly just formed a connection, right? And like for that point they have a very cool story as well. So like, like imagine, like, imagine like somebody answers that self identity question, does the micro op, like does the opt in. So they're already like committed to that. And thirdly, they go, that emotional flow, like they're gonna absolutely crop, like they're just gonna convert like crazy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they can't, they can't help themselves. They can't help it. They're like, I have to buy something.

[B]

This one, it's like this one, I literally have to buy something, so I.

[A]

Have to buy something. This brand is me. Yes, this brand is me. That's all you want from customers nowadays is for them to say this brand is me. Okay. Oh my gosh, we could keep talking about this forever. I want to point out though, for your particular like marketing tool, this is really interesting. You're using confirmation bias, which is a huge, huge element within human behavior. You're using a whole lot of framing, which is interesting because you're, the way that you're presenting the information helps people kind of just continue forward without stopping. You're also using a whole lot of priming because you're asking people to make an identity decision up front before they start to interact with more of the brand elements. And then you're also using this, I don't know, this idea of reciprocity, right? So people are much more likely to give because you've given them an interesting experience. And oddly enough, it feels like a brand is finally interested in me. Like because the popup comes up and they asked me a question about me, not just a question about them, right? Which is like, do you want to buy from us? Can, can we have your email for literally no reason at all? Those type of things, right? So you guys are investing in the customer before asking for something. High, high chance they're going to buy from you. Is there Anything else you want to add that's like we're seeing this and it's really interesting part of like what we're studying right now or anything like that. Because I just, I love what you guys do. I can't get enough it.

[B]

Yeah, I'd say like, you know, obviously like we saw pop ups so I think putting in the popups is great. But I think like putting the founder story if you're comfortable, if you're comfortable with telling your founder story. Right. And if the founder story is, let's say emotionally engaging. Right. It's not just like, hey, I'm a dropshipper, but like most story. Like yeah, put it in every part of your brand. Put in every touch point. Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just have it, have it in your Facebook ads. Have it on site through the pop up. Put it in the nurture sequence, in the name.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Put it everywhere. Put it on your packaging, labeling. Just put it everywhere. Because like if you have a good family story and you're okay with telling it, it should be the north star of the brand and it should just live in every customer touch point that we have.

[A]

Yeah. This is something I'm not very good at, so this is good advice for Sarah. It's like tell people how you got here.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Humans connect so much more with humans and the story is really what makes you different.

[B]

Yeah. And like, you know, it's kind of. Some people are like, oh, I don't want to talk too much about myself and my, like as the founder, like, I wanna, I want people to love the product.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like I understand that and but I do think it's really important to talk about yourself as the founder because that's what, that's why people buy a lot of the times and that's why people will come back.

[A]

Yeah. Well. And for any of those founders out there that are like, I didn't have like a cool founder story. I literally just started a brand to start a brand. That's no problem with that either. Then go find a customer story. Some customer that their life was changed through. Whatever you do or however you do it for your products, through your brand, through the experience. Go find a customer story and ask them if you can use it as a part of like growing the brand. Because those customer stories are just as powerful as founder stories. Especially if you don't have a founder story that feels big, you can use those as well to kind of make the point of people. People are being changed right through the brand and through our story. So. Oh my gosh, I love what you're doing. I can't get enough. I love you guys. I think this is fantastic. It's really interesting. There's a lot of psychology behind what you're doing. Where could people follow you? They would like to learn more about what you're building, what you're doing.

[B]

Nice. Yeah. I'm biggest on LinkedIn. So just my LinkedIn is Sean Arora and on Twitter, I use Twitter as well, but I'm probably the biggest on LinkedIn. But I've been trying to get more tutorials Twitter. So on Twitter as well.

[A]

Hey, Twitter is where it's at. Aalialearn.com that's a L I a L E a R N. I had to sit there and think about that. Aaliyahlearn.com Go check it out. This is fascinating stuff. Like I said, super psychology focused, super psychology based. So I'm excited to like follow your guys journey, see where you go. Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.

[B]

Thank you. The Brain Driven Brands podcast is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast Network.

[A]

I need it now. Need a beat me for these.

[B]

Need a laugh Biasing sick back by a.