he Illusion of Data: Why Customers Don’t Behave the Way Numbers Predict

Summary

Brain Driven Brands: Episode Summary

Episode Title: The Illusion of Data: Why Customers Don’t Behave the Way Numbers Predict
Release Date: January 2, 2025
Host: Sarah Levinger
Guest: Nate Legos

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Introduction: Setting the Stage

In this insightful episode of Brain Driven Brands, host Sarah Levinger engages in a candid conversation with Nate Legos, delving deep into the complexities of customer behavior and the often misleading reliance on data in marketing strategies. The episode challenges conventional wisdom, urging marketers to transcend numerical data and tap into the nuanced psychological and cultural factors that drive consumer decisions.

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The Overreliance on Data in Modern Marketing

Sarah Levinger initiates the discussion by highlighting a critical issue in contemporary marketing: the illusion that data provides a complete picture of customer behavior. She states, “Data predicts what customers think will happen again, not necessarily what will happen again” (04:57). This sets the premise for exploring why data-driven strategies may fall short in accurately forecasting consumer actions.

Nate Legos concurs, remarking on the dependency that modern marketers have developed on dashboards and numbers, often at the expense of understanding the human element: “We've all gotten so lazy and so reliant on numbers and dashboards that we completely take out the human element” (05:09). This sentiment underscores the episode's central theme: the necessity of balancing quantitative data with qualitative insights.

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The Limitations of Traditional Data Analysis

The conversation delves into how traditional data analysis methods, such as tracking overall metrics and conversion rates, can be misleading. Sarah emphasizes that while data can indicate what is happening, it often fails to explain why: “They tell you something is happening, but they don't tell you why or what's going to happen next” (05:31). This limitation is critical for marketers striving to anticipate and influence customer behavior effectively.

Nate adds that without context, numbers are fragmented and can lead to misguided strategies: “We're just missing so much information... our spreadsheet has 18 rows on it that we're looking at all the information we have. That's a fraction of it” (06:22). This highlights the importance of comprehensive data interpretation beyond surface-level metrics.

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The Importance of SKU-Level and Behavioral Tracking

To counteract the shortcomings of traditional data reliance, Sarah suggests a more granular approach to data tracking, focusing on SKU-level behaviors and understanding customer purchase patterns in depth. She introduces the concept of "sister industries," advocating for tracking consumer behaviors outside one's immediate market to gain broader insights: “Track what people are doing emotionally, psychologically, and with their own identities outside of your industry and your product, your market” (07:56).

Nate shares his experience with tracking detailed purchase behaviors, noting that understanding what customers buy together or in subsequent purchases provides valuable context: “We look at what people are buying, what they're buying together, and what they're buying in second and third and fourth purchases” (08:35). This method allows for more targeted and effective marketing strategies.

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Adapting to Changing Consumer Behaviors

The discussion transitions to how consumer behaviors are influenced by broader cultural and economic factors, such as inflation and seasonal trends. Sarah points out that external events and cultural shifts can significantly impact purchasing decisions in ways that raw data cannot predict: “If you have one athlete who has decided to go off of alcohol and he no longer drinks whiskey, all of his followers are now going to stop drinking whiskey” (13:07).

Nate elaborates on the necessity of contextualizing data within specific timeframes and customer segments: “Our buyer behavior in quarters one and three is so different than quarters two and four, because two and four is Father's Day... But our AOV is higher in quarters one and three” (19:12). This segmentation allows businesses to tailor their strategies to different phases of the consumer journey effectively.

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Beyond the Funnel: Embracing Emotional and Identity Factors

A pivotal point in the episode is the critique of the traditional marketing funnel model. Sarah argues that consumers are not consciously navigating through a funnel, and their purchasing decisions are often driven by identity and emotional pressures rather than their position within a marketing strategy: “There's two things that are usually driving human behavior... identity... and emotional pressure” (14:07).

Nate agrees, emphasizing that metrics like conversion rates can be misleading without understanding the underlying emotional and identity-driven motivations: “Your conversion rate's the same, but you doubled the amount of people that came to your website. That's a huge win” (16:53). This perspective encourages marketers to focus on building genuine brand relationships rather than solely optimizing for numerical targets.

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Practical Takeaways: Strategies for Effective Marketing

Sarah offers actionable insights for marketers seeking to move beyond data dependency:

1. Segment Customer Data: Divide customers based on identities, high LTV, and price sensitivity to tailor strategies effectively.
2. Track Sister Industries: Monitor consumer behaviors in related markets to anticipate shifts and adapt strategies accordingly.
3. Focus on Emotional and Identity Drivers: Develop campaigns that resonate with the psychological and cultural contexts of the target audience.

Nate complements these strategies by advocating for continuous testing and adaptation, ensuring that marketing efforts remain aligned with evolving consumer behaviors.

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Conclusion: Embracing a Holistic Marketing Approach

The episode concludes with a mutual agreement on the necessity of integrating both data-driven insights and deep psychological understanding to create resilient and adaptive marketing strategies. Sarah emphasizes the importance of building a brand over just growing an ad account, encapsulating the episode’s core message: “Grow a brand, not an ad account” (17:58).

As a takeaway, marketers are encouraged to view data as a piece of the puzzle rather than the entirety of customer understanding, advocating for a balanced approach that honors both quantitative metrics and qualitative human insights.

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Notable Quotes

• Sarah Levinger: “Data predicts what customers think will happen again, not necessarily what will happen again.” (04:57)
• Nate Legos: “We've all gotten so lazy and so reliant on numbers and dashboards that we completely take out the human element.” (05:09)
• Sarah Levinger: “They tell you something is happening, but they don't tell you why or what's going to happen next.” (05:31)
• Nate Legos: “Our conversion rate's the same, but you doubled the amount of people that came to your website. That's a huge win.” (16:53)
• Sarah Levinger: “Grow a brand, not an ad account.” (17:58)

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Timestamps

• 04:57: Sarah discusses data predictions vs. actual customer behavior.
• 05:09: Nate comments on marketers' reliance on numbers.
• 05:31: Sarah on the limitations of data in explaining customer actions.
• 07:56: Sarah introduces the concept of sister industries.
• 08:35: Nate explains his approach to tracking purchase behaviors.
• 13:07: Sarah on cultural influences affecting consumer behavior.
• 14:07: Sarah critiques the traditional marketing funnel model.
• 16:53: Nate on the misinterpretation of conversion rates.
• 17:58: Sarah emphasizes building a brand over growing an ad account.

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For more insights and strategies on bridging the gap between data and consumer psychology, tune into Brain Driven Brands and join Sarah Levinger and Nate Legos in their mission to transform your marketing approach from the ground up.

Transcript

[Sarah Levinger]

Foreign.

[Nate Legos]

Welcome back to Brain Driven Brands, hosted by the powerful Sarah Levinger.

[Sarah Levinger]

The powerful. I have never once been called powerful. I'm five foot two. Let's go.

[Nate Legos]

There you go. Yeah, but it's about the brain. Isn't that what this podcast is about?

[Sarah Levinger]

It's about the brain, right? We should talk about the brain in an episode. One of these. I don't think I've ever done a full episode on the brain. Do you want to learn about the brain? It's fascinating. It is terrifying. You don't want to know what's happening up in there. We just keep it quiet.

[Nate Legos]

I got a D in human biology my sophomore year of college.

[Sarah Levinger]

How do you get a D in human biology? It's literally just like regurgitation.

[Nate Legos]

I didn't go to class.

[Sarah Levinger]

I worry about that. I worry about that sometimes.

[Nate Legos]

Fine. I graduated.

[Sarah Levinger]

Did you, though? That's.

[Nate Legos]

No one's ever asked. It doesn't matter.

[Sarah Levinger]

Let's. Let's pretend that Sarah graduated from college. I did not. So it's fine. I just taught myself is the problem. It only took me 10.

[Nate Legos]

You're smarter than me, though. You learned more than me. Really? Does.

[Sarah Levinger]

It all comes down to how you learn and how easily you can retain information. That's something my husband tells me all the time. He's like, you're really good at synthesizing. Like, you can suck information out of things. Keep it inside your head and recall it right when you need to cut me down. Yeah, I'm kidding. I never cut him down. He's lovable.

[Nate Legos]

Well, like, school only teaches you to memorize shit.

[Sarah Levinger]

I know.

[Nate Legos]

And we're good and like, that. We might cut out this whole thing, but I'm hot on it lately. I had shitty grades in college and, like, I'd like people that would give me about it, like friends. And I was like, hey, guys, why aren't you rich now? Because I'm rich.

[Sarah Levinger]

You can regurgitate, but you can't make money.

[Nate Legos]

You had a 4.0 and I had a 2.4. So, like, who's winning?

[Sarah Levinger]

Well, it depends on what juice you drank. Some. Some of their parents told them, you need to go to college, you got to get good grades, you need to get a care out of college. Like, that's the rhetoric that they were told. I was told the same thing. I just didn't believe it.

[Nate Legos]

Right. Yeah. Immediately was like, why don't you start working when I'm done with this no party.

[Sarah Levinger]

I was like, wait a minute. I could just go get money. I Don't have to, like, spend money to make money. Okay. I'm just gonna go get some money.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. Why don't I just party for four and a half years and then I'll get serious about it?

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, my God, you're so funny. I didn't even party. Sarah was not cool at all. I didn't have a lot of college friends. I literally just went to work. I had, like, four jobs and I was making money, but I didn't do anything with it. I just had.

[Nate Legos]

It should have.

[Sarah Levinger]

That's my life. Okay, on to today's episode, though. We'll just, like, we'll talk about.

[Nate Legos]

Is it not about me shitting on my college friends?

[Sarah Levinger]

I mean, it's not about Sarah and Nate history. It's actually about an illusion. We're going to talk about an illusion today. Are you ready? Because we just talked about this briefly on the last episode, which is a good one. Go listen to that one first because it's helpful. This one, though, we're going to be talking about the illusion of data, specifically why customers don't behave the way the numbers predict. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. We're going to come at this from a very interesting angle because I really do think that, like, marketers trust the data, but what happens when, like, your best performing whatever is just lying to you? Right? It should be working is what this comes down to. It should be working, but it's not. Our customers told us they wanted blue sweatshirts. We made them. They didn't buy them. Why did that happen? This happens all the time in every single area of marketing, in every single area of business. Our customers said xyz. We gave them xyz. Why the hell aren't they purchasing? That's what we're going to talk about today.

[Nate Legos]

Let's do it. I love it.

[Sarah Levinger]

Here's the setting, though, because I want to set this up mostly because I think the role of data has changed a lot. We used to just, like, track shit that it was like, okay, we just need to know basically kind of what's happening. Give us a general picture of it. And then we kind of know where to go specifically because we used to have retargeting. So as long as the top of funnel ad was working, we know that if we target that person with a retargeting ad, they should buy. And most of the time they did. Because of the way Facebook was set up, because of how many privacy laws they were breaking at the time and because of, like, exactly, allegedly. And because of how many ways, like, Customers were seeing our marketing efforts come into their worldview. Right. They were just coming across our screen at very specific times. Now, the toughest part about this is data obviously helps us make very informed decisions, but customer behavior kind of defies those a little bit. And I think. I think it's because data predicts what they think will happen again, not necessarily what will happen again. Right. So historically, if we look back at, like, what the data is, and I totally have my notes on this, like, I did prep work on this because I found this really interesting. So historically, I think we became data reliant because we have the rise of analytics, AI and predictive models. I don't think if that SaaS had come into the industry, I don't think we'd be so reliant on the data.

[Nate Legos]

Can I tell you, like, I think if we could take marketers from 1984 and just teleport them to today, they would have been so much better off missing the last 10 years.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Legos]

Because in the last 10 years, I think we've all gotten so lazy and so reliant on numbers and dashboards that we completely take out the human element. And that's kind of the whole point of this podcast.

[Sarah Levinger]

Exactly.

[Nate Legos]

Crazy how lost some marketers get without their numbers.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes. Well, and that's just. It is. I found that we have become almost like. It's like a pacifier.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

It feels good to look into the numbers because at least I'm doing something right now. Again, I'm not trying to, like, dig on all you marketers that are looking at your numbers. The numbers are important to a point, because they. Again, we talked about this before. They tell you something is happening, but they don't tell you why or what's going to happen next. And I think the only way that you're able to predict that is to figure out what people are doing emotionally, psychologically, and with their own identities outside side of your industry and your product, your market. Because the numbers can't really account for, like, subconscious motivators. They can't. They can't account at all for cultural shifts or for cultural movements or even emotional drivers. They can't tell you any of that.

[Nate Legos]

Well, and I think, like, the numbers are obviously important. I've spreadsheets that we track everything in that I look at every day. But those numbers are worthless if you don't have someone with a good brain interpreting them and then coming up with a game plan on them.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Legos]

Because I think, like, so many times people are looking at one or two Data points, not in context of the time of year, what the other numbers say, what their customers are saying, you know, whether it's a holiday or an evergreen period, whatever it is. Like, we're just missing so much information, but we think we have it all because our spreadsheet has 18 rows on it that we're. Look at all the information we have. That's a fraction of it.

[Sarah Levinger]

It's just a snapshot. It's just like a blip in the corner. Especially because for you guys, you're in the watch industry and you sell to a very specific type of customer and consumer. However, you're attached to jewelry, luxury, any sort of like, extracurricular or I don't know what you'd call it, like, treat me kind of a purchase. So golf clubs, you technically compete with those.

[Nate Legos]

Yep.

[Sarah Levinger]

Right? Yeah, yeah, we talk about all the.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. Like, my competitors are bottles of whiskey, wallets, dress shirts, golf clubs, grills. Because I. I compete in, like, the gifts for guys space most commonly.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, my gosh.

[Nate Legos]

And yeah, my spreadsheets can't tell me anything to do it. Yes.

[Sarah Levinger]

And this is for every single industry on the planet. Like, if you sell supplements, you don't compete with other supplement brands. You also compete with anybody that sells some sort of a pill that does the same thing that you do. It's a different form, it's a different medium, but it solves the same problem. You also compete with milk this month, with bread this month. You compete with, like, shoes for my kids this month because I could spend $30 on supplements or I can buy them shoes.

[Nate Legos]

Yep.

[Sarah Levinger]

Especially as a mom. Like, you compete with a lot of other things in the household that are attached to grocery or household items. That's what you compete with. So again, don't, don't rely on the data to tell you exactly what's going to happen, because you just can't know without studying what the consumers are doing. So interestingly enough, I think it'd be a fascinating segment to go and talk about for OG in particular. If we're not going to watch the data, what are you guys tracking behaviorally that you're going to use for, like, your 2025 marketing strategies, if. If anything at all. And then I have ideas if you don't track anything yet.

[Nate Legos]

Great. So what we look at pretty consistently is what people are buying, what they're buying together, and what they're buying in second and third and fourth purchases.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay, so you're tracking SKU level behavior.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay. Nothing Else, not really. It's okay if you don't. I have so many ideas. Okay, so this is something that I'm going to start tracking at Tether. So this is a new product, like plug that I probably shouldn't be telling you about, but I'm telling you about anyway.

[Nate Legos]

That's right.

[Sarah Levinger]

Mostly because it's not developed yet. Sarah needs to take a minute to, like, develop new products. So one of the things that I'm going to be starting to track over at Tether is I'm going to start doing consumer behavior reports based on industry. So for you guys, you would get a watch report, but you'd also get a jewelry report. And you'd get like, high influence extracurricular purchases report. So you'd get one that's like, here's everything that's happening in golf. Here's everything that's happening. Whiskey. Here's everything that's happening in 3D printers. Here's everything that's happening. You know, we basically just get a range. Here's all the products that are currently trending up in the extracurricular purchase category, mostly so that you can track and see what are people purchasing more of. And how can we kind of attach ourselves to these particular cultural movements to boost brand affinity within the entire category. Not just watches, because you don't keep just the watches.

[Nate Legos]

All right, so I don't track anything like crazy like that, but we are influenced by it. Like, started us on the whole, like, price testing journey a couple of years ago. Was this kind of concept of like, personal price anchors.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Legos]

So like, I looked at grocery prices two years ago, and like, me and my wife keep, like a detailed budget spreadsheets. Like, I can look back at years ago, we were spending 500amonth on groceries.

[Sarah Levinger]

Track it that closely.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, she does. Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

She was in finance, so if I remember correct.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, she makes sense.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah. Okay.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. And now she stays home and makes sure I don't spend all the money. But, like, we can say, like, oh, cool, like, our grocery bill doubled in two years.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

So now. And like, I mean, a lot more steak than I used to. So that's. But like, obviously grocery prices have been up a ton. And we looked at it, like, all right, if 500 bucks used to get someone a month of groceries, now it gets them two weeks of groceries. That means our $500 watch isn't as big a commitment as it used to be.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Because you're not blowing your monthly grocery budget. You're only blowing half of it.

[Sarah Levinger]

Like, two weeks you're only bought two of it.

[Nate Legos]

And like, I think the whole like personal price anchor thing matters a lot. And when we're in an inflationary period like we've been in, I think a lot of brands weren't factoring that in and CAC was going up and all of their costs were getting expensive. But they never raised or tested the prices of their own products to figure out where the market was at prices.

[Sarah Levinger]

Or in particular choice architecture. How you offer these, these products is going to change how people actually purchase them from you. What you say while you're in that like, purchasing, like role is going to directly affect how much they purchase from you and when they purchase. All kinds of crazy stuff, which we've talked about many, many times on this podcast. But I think it'd be fascinating to start tracking industries. Sister industries is what I call outside of your own. Just to see what's happening and how can we compete with those products that are already kind of like mulling over in their head.

[Nate Legos]

I bet we don't cover some stuff that's super unique because there are times now like we had a great year, we didn't struggle, but like there are weeks or months during a business where you're like performance just a little bit soft.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Not really sure why. Not really sure what's going on. And like for us those periods have not been so bad. It's like we just stick to our playbook and keep it going. But it'd be interesting to be like, yeah, all of whiskey's down this month.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Legos]

Or all of us.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Men's unnecessary purchasers are down. It's like, oh, well that's super interesting.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes. Well, I, I, it's tied to the culture. So again, if you have one athlete who has decided to go off of alcohol and he no longer drinks whiskey, all of his followers are now going to stop drinking whiskey. Right. Like they're going to decrease their consumption just based upon their affinity to him. Their decrease in whiskey consumption might decrease their consumption of whiskey based watches.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

As well. That's so tracking.

[Nate Legos]

Sending me those reports, huh?

[Sarah Levinger]

That's my goal. That's my goal is to track all of this and like figure out what's happening in the industries. So tracking sister industries I think is very important. That's like key number one. If you take anything from this particular like podcast that started on a different topic and is now on another one, data can't tell you the why or what's going to happen next. It can only tell you that something is happening. And if you're going to track any data, I think tracking SKU level data is fascinating. That is a good call out to try and track what people are doing behaviorally with your products, coupling them together or purchasing them apart. But most of all, I think it's going to be monumentally important to track what's happening outside of your own industry.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Levinger]

And what you're attached to.

[Nate Legos]

Well. And like, I think that's something that people get wrong in with. The concept of marketing funnels in general is like, hey, your customer does not know they are in your funnel right now. They don't know they're just a person.

[Sarah Levinger]

Good call. Doing life, Doing the life.

[Nate Legos]

And like, 18 brands think they're only in their funnel right now. And it's like, no, there's a lot of shit going on that you have no clue about. And you're like, why isn't the funnel working? The person's at level two and it's like, that person, they don't know they're wife this week. Like, they have no clue where they are.

[Sarah Levinger]

Like, they don't know they're in your funnel. Yeah, people, brands, marketers, they don't know they're in your funnel. They also don't know what step to go next. Like, they don't know where to go. Right. Which is just funny because, man, I think. I think we got so stuck on this idea of the funnel that we just figured, this is how it works. This is how behavior works. This is how people purchase things. And as I've said many, many times, no, most of the time they're purchasing because it's raining and it's a Tuesday. Like, they're not purchasing because you brought them to this specific place and now this is where they're going to purchase. It just, it's unfortunately very emotionally random. There's two things that are usually driving human behavior. Right. One is identity, which is focused on worldview, how you were parented, all those sorts of things that we talk a lot about in this podcast. The second is emotional pressure. Emotional pressure is almost always temporary and influenced by very strange things like yellow cans or like plants in the background or like blue buttons. You know, there's random things that emotional pressure does to consumption behavior, but that's what we. We're like, heavily relying on that to grow brands. And I'm like, please don't do that, don't do that. Please don't do that.

[Nate Legos]

Can we talk about why the data doesn't extrapolate how people think it will?

[Sarah Levinger]

Ooh, okay, I'm ready.

[Nate Legos]

Because I think. I don't know what your research pulled, but I think this is something that marketers and brands do and they don't know they're doing it.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay.

[Nate Legos]

And it creates a lot of confusion. So, like, let's say I run at $150 CAC. That's good for us. That's our, like, limit of, like, cool. I can spend that. Then we launch a new ad from Sarah, or we find some new landing page copy that crushes, and naturally our CAC falls to 140.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay.

[Nate Legos]

We don't just hit pause and say, like, cool, our CAC140. Now we spend more money.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

And we grow the business and, like, we spend until we drive that efficiency back down to 1:50. And I think it's something that's super misunderstood. This comes up a lot when doing, like, CRO kind of work because the whole goal is to increase conversion rate. But then once you get that increase, cat goes down. You're like, let's spend more and more and more. Conversion rate comes back down, cat goes back up. And you can look at the end of the year and be like, our conversion rate's the same year over year. But we did all this CRO work. What happened? And it's like, no, no, no. Your. Your conversion rate's the same, but you doubled the amount of people that came to your website. That's a huge win.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes.

[Nate Legos]

And I don't think people understand the revenue.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes, you should be seeing revenue increases. Like, again, this is an all boats rise conversation. You can track these teeny tiny metrics if you really, really want to. And this is, again, we could just dive back into the metrics conversation. But overall, what I'm trying to do is grow a brand. Grow a brand, not an ad account. I'm not trying to grow an ad account. I'm trying to grow a brand. It's very different conversation. Very, very, very different strategy. Most people are trying to grow an ad account. Yeah, I'm going to die. I'm just going to die every day because I'm like, why are you doing that? Please stop. It's fine. It's going to be fine. So again, the brands I work with, Nate and I come over and have this cool conversation about, like, are you going to grow a brand or an ad account? But yeah, at the end of the.

[Nate Legos]

Day, let me ask you one more question about, like, how people look at and use all these quantitative data things that we're talking about. You're going to Feel like anything more than three months ago is completely irrelevant.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Nate Legos]

Anything like in the quantitative data.

[Sarah Levinger]

Okay, quantitative data? No. I would say no. Mostly because consumption behavior changes about every 12 weeks, depending on the season, depending on the product, depending on the industry. Right. Now, there's some things that have a very distinct seasonality to them. For instance, you know that Halloween store that pops up every year, that has all the Halloween clothes in it? They technically close. They go out of business every year. Every year they go out of business because they close all their stores. Spirit Halloween closes every year in November without fail. But they only have to make all of their revenue at one time of the year because they have such a seasonal product that it doesn't freaking matter. Right. So for them, I think tracking the past three months is irrelevant. Doesn't matter what's happening in July.

[Nate Legos]

True.

[Sarah Levinger]

Because they're only. They only care about October. That's it. They care about, like, August, September, October. That's it. Now, for you guys, it depends on what your purchasing behavior looks like. So I would be fascinated to look at your Shopify data and check to see high of the high LTV kind of customers. Right. Aov ltv. And then check to see what time of the year those people purchased and what time of the day in particular.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. So like, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Like, our buyer behavior in quarters one and three is so different than quarters two and four, because two and four is Father's Day. And yeah, Christmas, big gifting periods. But our AOV is higher in quarters one and three. What the guys buying for themselves. And they're willing to spend more money on it.

[Sarah Levinger]

They're willing to spend more money. This goes back to the episode.

[Nate Legos]

Compare. Like.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, okay.

[Nate Legos]

I was gonna say, like, when we. Like, it's not fair for me to compare, like my August AOV to what it is today because it's like, hey, this month was five times bigger than August and I'm selling to a completely different customer.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Like, yes, my AOV is down. That doesn't mean anything about our pricing or upsell strategy is broken. That's what happens in our business, technically speaking.

[Sarah Levinger]

Then you should track customer data based upon the customer identities that exist inside your TAM high aov. Ltv, which means our best customers. Right. Which we talked about on last episode. And then also our price sensitive customers, sale focused customers. Track those in two different silos.

[Nate Legos]

Yep.

[Sarah Levinger]

And figure out what metrics actually matter to that particular customer type. Outside of that, I probably wouldn't Track anything else.

[Nate Legos]

Right? Well, yeah, because, like, different. If I Look at this Q4 compared to last Q4, our AOV is up and our conversion rate is up, which tells me like, our on site bundling and upsell and pricing strategy is working.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

But yeah, it's just. You gotta look at it in context. You can't look at it business wide.

[Sarah Levinger]

No, no. Well, and that we generalize. We take all of the metrics and apply it to all of the customers inside the entire brand. And I'm like, that's not. That's not how that works. You have to segment. You have to segment. If you're not tracking by SKU and by customer type, you basically have no idea what to do. You're just guessing and hoping that this kind of like spaghetti on the wall thing is going to work. And it's. It's even worse. It's not even like spaghetti on the wall. It's like spaghetti off a building.

[Nate Legos]

That's my something. That's my like, favorite take to like, hey, if you want to throw shit at the wall, that's fine. You're gonna end up with shit all over your walls. Oh, so that doesn't sound, like super fun.

[Sarah Levinger]

This is a good episode. Now I'm thinking of all kinds of different, like, oh, man, we should be splitting this up into all kinds of different behavior because, yeah, your guys who are buying for themselves are technically a very valuable customer.

[Nate Legos]

Very.

[Sarah Levinger]

But they don't bring in large sums of revenue like the sale focused customers do. They need different tactics. You would have to do different marketing tactics entirely for both customer segments.

[Nate Legos]

Yep.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, God. All right, well, good luck with that.

[Nate Legos]

Thanks. That's why I have, you know, there's a lot of work.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes. Job security. Also, maybe that'll be the next episode of like, how do you build a marketing strategy by identity silo? Because that's something we've never talked about before.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, that should be an episode because I'm doing it all again right now because we're going back into.

[Sarah Levinger]

Oh, damn. Okay. Yeah, maybe we should do that one next. Where can people find you, though? They want to track what you're doing.

[Nate Legos]

With this at Nate Legos on Twitter. The tactical and practical podcast is so good. I. Everyone has been like, dude, it's so good.

[Sarah Levinger]

I'm like, people are raving about it.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. Sarah's finally gonna come on.

[Sarah Levinger]

Yes. So right after this. Let's do it.

[Nate Legos]

I had to pay her speaking fees five grand for 20 minute episodes. Insane. But it doesn't make a Dent. I'm doing pretty well, so she's. We'll have her on. It'll be good.

[Sarah Levinger]

Doing better than I am, if that's what's actually happening. First of all, I didn't know we're getting paid. Second of all, so good for you. I'm glad you're doing well with your farm. Your duck farm that you just bought. 100. Where can people find me? Thank you for asking. That's a great question, Nate.

[Nate Legos]

Anyway, they're listening to this podcast, so they know where they.

[Sarah Levinger]

They found you, right?

[Nate Legos]

There you go.

[Sarah Levinger]

You can find me in my office. Usually my dog is here. He's not in the background. Usually he's sitting on that blanket at Sarah Lovinger basically everywhere, all the socials. And then check out what we're doing at Tether Insights, because I plugged a report today that I'm like, ah, crap. Now I have to make it to actually make the. Because somebody's gonna be like, where can I get these reports? And I'll be like, I don't know. I haven't made them yet.

[Nate Legos]

Make them.

[Sarah Levinger]

Did you say goodbye? I'm sorry. I was waiting. Oh, no. Bye. Goodbye.

[Nate Legos]

That was good. We said it at the same time. So cute.

[Sarah Levinger]

The Brain Driven Brands podcast is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast Network. I need a nap.

[Nate Legos]

Need a beat.

[Sarah Levinger]

New release. Need a laugh. Bias.

[Nate Legos]

Sit back, Fire.