Marketers - Don’t Think About WHO, Think About WHEN

Summary

Brain Driven Brands
Episode: Marketers - Don’t Think About WHO, Think About WHEN
Host: Sarah Levinger
Co-Host: Nate Lagos
Release Date: November 5, 2024

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Brain Driven Brands, host Sarah Levinger engages in a candid conversation with co-host Nate Lagos about evolving marketing strategies. The focal point of their discussion centers on shifting the traditional marketing emphasis from identifying "who" the customer is to understanding "when" the customer is ready to make a purchase. This episode delves deep into the psychological and contextual factors that influence consumer behavior, offering actionable insights for e-commerce brands aiming to enhance their marketing efficacy.

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1. The Pressure of Q4 Marketing

[00:03]
Sarah and Nate open the episode by sharing their personal struggles during the fourth quarter (Q4), a period typically marked by heightened marketing activities and sales targets.

• Nate: “Living the dream, which is code for drowning at work and not sleeping well.” [00:15]
• Sarah: “I didn’t want to work so bad that I just laid on my floor for a good hour.” [00:21]

They discuss the stress associated with Q4, highlighting how the intensified workload and heightened expectations can lead to burnout and decreased productivity.

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2. Introducing the Concept: "When" Over "Who"

Sarah introduces an emerging marketing concept inspired by Richard Shotton’s work, emphasizing the importance of timing ("when") over demographic targeting ("who").

[02:43]

• Sarah: “We talk way too much in marketing about who the customer is … What we need to be talking about is when.”

[02:53]

• Nate: “That's not out of all the question words. That's not the one I thought you were going to say.”

This paradigm shift suggests that understanding the specific moments or contexts when consumers are ready to make a purchase can be more effective than traditional demographic or psychographic profiling.

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3. Behavioral Science Insights

The conversation delves into behavioral science, discussing tools and studies that analyze subconscious responses to advertising.

[05:01]
Sarah references Gerald Zaltman’s ZMET (Zaltman Metaphor Elicitation Technique), which scans subconscious reactions to advertisements.

• Sarah: “One of the examples they brought up was this woman was looking at Tylenol advertisements … she said, cake represents nurturing.”

This example illustrates how consumers associate products with deep emotional meanings that vary based on context. The same product can evoke different emotions depending on the situation, such as purchasing for oneself versus buying for a family member.

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4. Practical Applications for E-commerce Brands

Sarah and Nate explore how brands can apply the "when" concept to tailor their marketing strategies effectively.

[10:04]

• Nate: “It's not my job to persuade every blue collar guy … My job is to create content that speaks to those kind of guys when the time is right for them.”

They discuss strategies for identifying and targeting the optimal moments when customers are most receptive to purchasing, such as significant life events (e.g., promotions, weddings) or seasonal peaks (e.g., Father's Day, Christmas).

[12:10]

• Sarah: “If you were to track the industries closest to your when, you could accurately predict when these guys were going to purchase …”

This involves leveraging data to understand industry-specific timelines and personal milestones that trigger buying decisions, allowing for more precise and effective marketing campaigns.

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5. Challenges in Implementing the "When" Strategy

The hosts acknowledge the complexities and uncertainties involved in adopting a "when"-focused marketing approach.

[15:11]

• Sarah: “Consumption behavior then isn't really attached to any one thing … it's attached to situation, context, and heightened emotions that are often times infrequent and also temporary.”

They highlight the difficulty in predicting unique, personal moments that lead to purchases, questioning whether brands are merely capitalizing on serendipitous moments or genuinely understanding and anticipating consumer needs.

[16:36]

• Nate: “For most products, it's an infrequent moment in their life … They're going to pull the trigger on it.”

The infrequency and variability of these moments present a significant challenge in maintaining consistent marketing effectiveness.

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6. Leveraging Data for Predictive Marketing

To navigate these challenges, Sarah suggests utilizing data analytics to forecast purchasing opportunities based on industry trends and consumer behavior patterns.

[12:10]

• Sarah: “Props to you. ... You could get data from literally just government websites … you could track promotions at work … marriages …”

By analyzing data from reliable sources, brands can identify patterns and predict when customers are likely to make purchases, enabling timely and relevant marketing interventions.

[18:25]

• Nate: “The when thing is interesting … Go right when. … even if you just spend half an hour brainstorming it, you will unlock so much better ideas for content and copy and offers.”

This proactive approach allows brands to align their marketing efforts with the optimal moments in a customer’s purchasing journey, enhancing engagement and conversion rates.

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7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Sarah and Nate reflect on the profound implications of the "when" strategy for modern marketing.

[17:10]

• Sarah: “Nobody's gonna like this episode. It’s a depressing episode, but I'm learning so incredibly much about this when idea.”

They acknowledge the complexity of consumer behavior but remain optimistic about the potential of this approach to revolutionize marketing strategies.

[18:40]

• Sarah: “When … the when idea.”

[18:44]

• Nate: “When. … You have to already. That's great. Go right when.”

The episode underscores the necessity for marketers to adopt a more nuanced understanding of consumer timing, advocating for data-driven approaches to identify and act upon the critical moments that drive purchasing decisions.

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Key Takeaways

• Shift Focus to Timing: Understanding "when" consumers are ready to buy can be more impactful than traditional "who" demographics.
• Emotional Context Matters: Purchases are often driven by situational contexts and emotions rather than logical decisions.
• Leverage Data Analytics: Utilize industry and behavioral data to predict optimal marketing moments.
• Personalization Challenges: Identifying unique buying moments is complex but essential for effective marketing.
• Actionable Strategies: Align marketing campaigns with significant life events and seasonal trends to enhance relevance and engagement.

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Notable Quotes

• Sarah (02:53): “What we need to be talking about is when.”
• Nate (05:05): “That's super interesting because there are definitely patterns in my life …”
• Sarah (12:10): “You could track promotions at work … you could track specifically, like, marriages …”
• Nate (18:25): “The when thing is interesting … You will unlock so much better ideas for content and copy and offers.”

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Further Information

For more insights and detailed discussions, listeners are encouraged to follow Sarah Levinger and Nate Lagos through their respective podcasts and social media channels. Nate also recommends his alternate podcast, Tactical and Practical, for additional practical marketing strategies.

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This summary is crafted to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode's main discussions and insights, making it valuable for listeners and marketers alike who seek to enhance their understanding of advanced neuromarketing strategies.

Transcript

[A]

All right, we're back on the podcast yet again. Another episode of Brain Driven Brands. Welcome back to show Nate Legos co host. How are you? How's just.

[B]

Just living the dream, which is code for drowning at work and not sleeping well.

[A]

I'm barely surviving. Yeah. Yesterday was one of those days where I was like kicking and screaming through my entire work day. I didn't want to work so bad that I just like laid on my floor for a good hour.

[B]

That's fine. I often. This is not good productivity advice, but I'm a big believer in like, if you're just struggling to get through the work that. Just stop.

[A]

Just stop.

[B]

Like, honestly, like, just wrap it up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go do something. Come back to tomorrow.

[A]

Yeah. Because you're not going to do good work anyways. We all know you're not going to do good work.

[B]

I didn't do good work. Have you ever been like the last three hours you sat at your computer, you got like maybe 20 minutes of work done and it's like you would have been better off going to golf or like going to do something that's not work and just come and hit it at 8am tomorrow morning.

[A]

Yeah. Oddly enough, I don't know what it is about Q4, but I get this a lot in Q4. You and I have talked about this extensively. It's just like Q4 is panic attack era for Sarah. Well, I can't deal with myself. I don't know what it is. It just stresses me out a lot.

[B]

Can I tell you how it's October, Like, I think even like November, December are so much better. Cause at least sales are up for me. But like, October is technically Q4, but it's really not. It's like Q3 part two, because no one's buying yet, but we are. We've scaled spend up a bunch and like, we're, we're prepped for it and it's like, all right, we're. We're just kind of waiting right now and everything sucks. And we're all getting a little, I know, A little feisty.

[A]

I also soak up emotion from people. So I get on calls with these brands who are like, we're drowning. And I'm like, ah, let me. I will try and help. Yeah, it's stressful. Anyways, I want to talk to you today about a concept that I'm currently like thinking about formulating. So I, I have some very definitive things that Sarah believes emotion and marketing is everything. People don't make decisions logically. They make them emotionally like lots of different things that I'm sure you've heard if you listen to this podcast long enough. One of the ones that I'm currently formulating though, is an interesting idea of seguing away from thinking about who so much. Who are we talking to? Who is our customer? Who, who, who, who, who? This is something that I, I, I've, I've been like, the algorithm just knows that Sarah's in a weird mode because I've been like, just fed all these different videos that I haven't seen before. Which is odd because I consume a lot of content. And one in particular by Richard Shotton came up a couple weeks ago where he was talking about, we talk way too much in marketing about who the customer is or who we're supposed to be speaking to. What we need to be talking about is when.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

When.

[B]

That's not out of all the question words. That's not the one I thought you were going to say.

[A]

Tell me about it. I was like, what are you saying, Richard? Shout out to Richard Shotton if you want to come on my podcast. Please do, because you're amazing.

[B]

But when?

[A]

When?

[B]

So this is not start with why or start with what this is. Start with when.

[A]

This is start with when. And you and I have done a little bit of this work where we're talking about specifically for your audience because you sell luxury watches, they're made from reclaimed wood. Like your amazing CMO who like does all this cool stuff with growth. But like, you got all this stuff going on and people are very interested in the brand attached to you guys. But you and I talk a lot about who this person is. Is he blue collar? Is he a family guy? Like, who is he identity wise? What Richard is proposing is that we think specifically about not who needs this product, but when in time do they need it. Context is what he's trying to get us to like focus on. And I was like, as soon as he said it, I was like, what is that? I can't even wrap my head around that. What are you talking about? So did some research, dug deeper into it, and there's one specific company right now I need to bring up the article that's basically making something that can track these subconscious responses to when people need a solution to a problem. Something called Gerald Zaltman is a guy that's currently building this creative zmet, which is this. It's a tool that can basically just scan the subconscious while you're looking at advertising. But one of the examples they brought up was this woman was basically looking at Tylenol advertisements. And then they would say, okay, we want you to take a look at a Tylenol ad and a generic ad for the same painkiller. And then we want you to go back and bring images for what these two products mean to you, which I think is fascinating. I think everyone should do that because depending on the images they bring back. Right. It's deeper in the subconscious. It'll tell you emotionally what they feel about it. This one, that was fascinating. So they had one woman that brought back a picture of a birthday cake in relation. Yeah, in relation to Tylenol. And I was like, what is it?

[B]

Because kids birthday parties are loud and annoying as shit.

[A]

No. So that's the logical route. Right. So they were asking, why in the hell did you bring a picture of cake to represent your feeling of Tylenol? And she said, specifically, cake represents nurturing. So for her, she apparently trusts Tylenol more than the generic brand, but only when she's choosing it for her husband or her daughter.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

When? When? So they asked her, will you get. Show us a different picture for when you're shopping for yourself? And she chose a totally different picture. Like something not emotional. So I'm like, holy shit. So in general, you have blue collar guys that are buying reclaimed wood watches. If they're buying for themselves, is it.

[B]

Like, that's a big moment for a guy? Yeah, yeah. Like, guys don't buy shit from themselves ever, but when they do, it's to acknowledge a big milestone.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's to reward themselves for an accomplishment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's a moment in their life. And yes, sometimes it might be tied to Father's Day or Christmas, but, like, more, it's more often, I think, personal.

[A]

It's a moment. And so. And so to wrap this back around to, like, some science, they're doing a lot of studies now and they're building a lot of, like, technology that can tell you're going to purchase something before you purchase it based upon which sections of the brain light up as you're looking at advertisements. They can tell if you're going to purchase something. It's.

[B]

That's super interesting because, like, there are definitely patterns in my life that I've seen where, like, I end up buying something that I didn't expect to buy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But then I look back on it, I'm like, that checks out like, that, like, I know for, like, as simple as, like, Q4 is busy time for me. I'm gonna get Ubereats way more often. Oh, did I show you what I bought two days ago. No, give me a sec. Hold on.

[A]

Okay, what it was. What is it?

[B]

I don't know if this is gonna make for good content or not, but.

[A]

I needed to make good YouTube content. Okay, I'm ready.

[B]

All right. It's Q4.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm stressed, and I'm working a lot. I'm also not drinking alcohol, which is typically my, like, unwind thing.

[A]

Healthy, though. Helping. Yeah. Take a break.

[B]

Well, wait, so instead of drinking alcohol, the. The other night, I went to the gas station to get a candy bar.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. It's not great, but, you know, is what it is. I. I bought the box of Snickers. I just grabbed it off the shelf, and I was like, hey, can I just buy this whole thing?

[A]

And why did you buy so many?

[B]

Because I like them, and you're my favorite. And, like, not to flex too hard, but, like, 50 bucks doesn't make a dent. You know, I'm like, I've spent $50 on a bottle of whiskey, which is what I would be doing tonight.

[A]

Okay. So. Okay. This is really interesting because, again, I kind of agree with the way Richard's going with. Just from, like, a behavioral standpoint, we talk a lot about who and identity, and, like, now we're starting to talk a lot about emotion, which is fantastic. I love seeing that in the industry. But the next step of this is talking about when, context of when. Because if you're shopping by yourself, it's totally different than if you're shopping with a significant other.

[B]

Think I get that. If my wife was with me.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. If she was with you, would you. You wouldn't have bought it?

[B]

No, I. I would have brought it up, and she would have been like, don't do that. And I would have been like, all right.

[A]

Oh, my God. So this scares me a little bit, because now it again, and this is something I've been saying for forever. I think market less of an impact on, like, consumers as we. If. As we think we do, we have global impact, meaning we can. We can totally change the way markets work. If all the brands do the same thing at all the time, like, at the same time. Great example, Covid, man. As soon as we started to notice that everybody couldn't go out because it was unsafe to go out and touch stuff, we all decided to go online at the same time, which drastically changed how the consumers did anything. Right. And now that behavior is permanent. They will prefer online stuff because they did it for enough years. And that's just easier for them. So that's how they do it. Convenience. Right. So in your particular case, when mattered way, way more to your purchase for Snickers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Than who your identity didn't matter. It just mattered when it's. I don't like it.

[B]

All right, so then let's talk. Let's bring this back to free consulting for me. Because when we talk about, like, the original grain guy, something that I. I've been trying to think about, it's like, it's not my job to persuade every blue collar guy that drinks whiskey to buy one of our whiskey barrel watches. My job is, I think, to create content that speaks to those kind of guys when the time is right for them.

[A]

Yeah. When.

[B]

So, like, when I say that, you know, our watches are smooth and unique just like the guys who wear them, that only speaks to that guy in a time at his life when he's feeling smooth and unique and classic and full of character and willing to acknowledge and appreciate and like, kind of pat himself on the back for that.

[A]

Yeah, this scares me a little bit because you can't predict when those happen. You can kind of predict what era they'll happen in.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, you know, like, work wise, he'll probably start to. To generate a lot more promotions and big things in his life somewhere in his late 20s, all the way up to 40s, 50s, right?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But then as soon as he gets to 50s, 60s, he'll probably be on the, like, retirement track.

[B]

Y.

[A]

So you might get one more good purchase from him at retirement, and then after that, it's up to your brand and how deep of a connection you've made with him to see if he'll purchase for his son, if he has a son. If he doesn't have a son, that's the end of that lifetime of the value of the customer. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The category stuff.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm like, this idea of when is kind of blowing my mind because depending on the situation and depending on who's with them, so who sort of still matters. Like, who is still incredibly important, but when might be more important than who.

[B]

Do you think we should be thinking about this both in terms of, like, seasonality and then down to, like, an individual personal level. Like, for us, our biggest times a year are Father's Day and Christmas, where we're selling to the woman who's at a time in her life where she has a problem of what to get her guy that shows him that she loves him and Appreciates him. It's like, that's obviously marketing to that person in the right moment. How much can we do on the personal side of it? Is it like just create content that always speaks to guys, assuming they're in that moment and it'll find the right guys and it'll hit the right guys, or is there anything more we could be doing to kind of make sure we're there when the time is right?

[A]

Here's the weird part.

[B]

Watch.

[A]

And I think, props. Props to you. I think, and this is just a hypothesis that Sarah's currently formulating. I think if you were to track the industries closest to your when, you could accurately predict when these guys were going to purchase, how many were going to purchase, and at what time of the year you needed to push and promote hardest to get them to purchase. I think you could do that.

[B]

So what would that be for us? So for daily, like, promotions at work, Wedding season.

[A]

Yes, but the problem is marketers are just guessing as to when those are in the year. Right. We just guess. We don't know when he's making a promotion at work. But for blue collar guys, you could probably go get data from literally just government websites to see statistically, when do promotions normally happen during the year? You could get that data. You could go get it right now, today. Like, it's not difficult to get access to. You could track promotions at work. You could also track specifically, like, marriages in this particular subgroup of men. When do men in like, kind of the blue collar, like, hardworking field get married? At what time? At what age is more statistically relevant for them? There's all kinds of these little ones that you could totally track, but also just industries that are pertaining to you. When do these guys usually purchase? What would be closest to them? Like, when do you usually purchase, like, guns in particular? Because these guys are really into kind of like ammunition every two weeks when I get paid. That's what I'm saying. Like, how often do they purchase it? Is this something that's a current behavior set of theirs that you could swap for a watch? Is that something we can speak to? So I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out about this when thing because there's so many things that you could attach your brand to.

[B]

And like, what I like about looking at it this way, because, like, it is, it is personal, but it's not necessarily, like, age specific. Like, yeah, I got married at 23. Probably very similar feelings as a guy who got married at 33.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, age is different stage of Life is different, but you're facing the same accomplishment.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I don't. I think it'd be. It'd be a. Over time. I think it's honestly harder to try and keep attracting a who. Because identities change, Right. If you get married now you're married to table stakes.

[B]

If you don't know who you're marketing to, you're out of business in six months. So, like, it doesn't matter.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and depending on the age group, like, for you, you got married, so now you're a married guy. Right. And pretty soon, if you have kids, you'll be a family man. And pretty soon, if you have older kids. Right. You'll be somebody else. So core identities are made within those first one to seven years. We've talked a lot about on episodes, but identity, like lifestyle identities change a lot.

[B]

Yeah. I'm a farmer now.

[A]

You're. You're a duck farmer. I know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Excited for you. So excited for your duck farm. It's gonna be.

[B]

Can I tell you the example I was gonna give you about when. Before I remembered the 24 pack of Snickers I got the other night.

[A]

Okay. Yes.

[B]

I was gonna say, like, oh, so, like, it doesn't matter who I am. Like, like, like I'm not a smoker, but like, If I have 11 drinks on a Friday night, the odds I'm gonna go buy a pack of Camel Crushes goes way up. You know what I mean?

[A]

And technically speaking, your, your definition of smoker changes depending on the situation, because smoker before you drink means lots of smoking. Yeah, Consistent habitual smoking smoker.

[B]

When I drink, I'm like, drunk. Sicks don't count. I'll have six this year and it'll be fine.

[A]

It's basically like, you know, eating a brownie or 20, not that kind of brownie. Like this, you know, the normal kind of brownie. It's like eating up a bag of chips is what I'm saying. Like, yeah, smoking is just ancillary. It's a secondary character to the drinking. So. Oh, and this scares me. I'm like, whole consumption behavior then isn't really attached to any one thing, any one need or any one problem. It's attached to situation, context, and heightened emotions that are often times infrequent and also temporary.

[B]

Wow. The infrequent part just scared me because you're so.

[A]

Tell me about it.

[B]

Because, like, for most products, it's an infrequent moment in their life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That they're going to pull the Trigger on it. Especially the higher.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Price point you get.

[A]

So I'm like, are we just getting lucky? Are we actually creating and generating any sort of behavioral, like, mechanism. Right. Response, or does this have more to do with the fact that we're just there when they get to that infrequent temporary state?

[B]

I think that's it.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

I, I, like, I, I.

[A]

Nobody's gonna like this episode.

[B]

No. This episode sucks. Well, I hope what it does it. I hope it makes people realize what a miracle it is that people buy our products. It's like fas. You need so much to go. Right. And we take it for granted. Acquiring hundreds or thousands of customers a day. We're like, well, yeah. Like, we, we spent 30k on ads, so we should do 80k in revenue. And it's like, no. But the fact that that machine works is wild.

[A]

Is bonkers. Especially from a human standpoint, because none of us are out here doing anything based upon logic or, like, reasoning. We're just reacting to a Snickers box of Snickers in the store. When my wife isn't there, I'm like, oh, God.

[B]

And I'm stressed C4 and I'm not drinking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I was drinking, I would have just stayed home and had a whiskey and went to bed.

[A]

Situational man.

[B]

So I think that's the punchline. One glass of whiskey is healthier than 24 Snickers. I'm getting back on the sauce.

[A]

I need to go drink something right now. Oh, okay. We gotta end it there. Otherwise I'm gonna start to get depressed. I'm sorry. Shout out to everybody. Sorry that this is a depressing episode, but I'm learning so incred incredibly much about this when idea.

[B]

The when thing is interesting. I think everyone needs to go add it to their whatever brand doc they have. You have to already. That's great. Go right when. Because I think even if you just spend half an hour brainstorming it, you will unlock so much better ideas for content and copy and offers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than if you don't think about when that's such a big piece of it.

[A]

When. Cause I, I mean, I'm just seeing all kinds of, like, offers for you guys. Like, can we do an offer that's specific to. Specific to, like, the time day. Right. You just got off work. You deserve a watch.

[B]

Yeah. 5:00pm Happy hour.

[A]

Yeah, happy hour. Like, is there a happy hour watch ad that we can run and see how that. Because you, you never know. You might unlock something ridiculous. And now all of a sudden we have, like, thousands of customers coming in for a 5 o'clock when I'm like, anyways.

[B]

All right, that's wild.

[A]

I digress. Where could people find you?

[B]

If my mom or wife are listening, I haven't smoked a cig in, like, six years, so. Clarification at Nate Lagos Tactical and Practical podcast is slightly better than this one, if you're interested.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So check that out. We do half as many episodes, but they're twice as good, so I think it knits up. I did hire someone to edit my episodes and do clips for me. Okay, college kid. Very cheap. So, Scotty, don't get jealous. I still can't afford you, but I think it's gonna, like, keep me on schedule because I've been. I've posted like, twice in the last, like, five weeks, so.

[A]

I'm proud of you. My dog is dying. I don't know if you can hear that. He's hacking up along. I think he's fine. He's just. This is why I'm like, why is my dog in on this podcast? Go follow me at Podcast, the podcast king of puns. King of puns over here. Follow me out there. Lender everywhere.

[B]

No, guys, you know what? Don't do that.

[A]

You got that?

[B]

How about that? How about don't do that and follow me instead. How's that?

[A]

I'm giving you free advice constantly, every single week. This is how you repay me?

[B]

Rude.

[A]

Incredibly rude. That's the end of that. We're just going to end it.

[B]

The Brain Driven Brands podcast is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast Network.