“Nash Equilibrium" Is Why Your Competitors Are Winning

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Nash Equilibrium" Is Why Your Competitors Are Winning

Podcast Information:

• Title: Brain Driven Brands
• Host/Author: Sarah Levinger
• Description: Host Sarah Levinger breaks down the advanced neuromarketing secrets of 9-figure brands (like True Classic, Spotify, and Plants vs. Zombies) to show you psychology tactics any e-commerce brand can use today to cut costs, boost sales, and captivate the masses.
• Episode: “Nash Equilibrium" Is Why Your Competitors Are Winning
• Release Date: August 5, 2025

---

1. Introduction and Lighthearted Banter (00:01 - 05:30)

The episode kicks off with Sarah Levinger and Nate Legos engaging in a playful conversation celebrating their producer Scotty’s birthday. Amidst humorous exchanges about Scotty’s age and their own physical ailments, the hosts set a relaxed and personable tone for the episode.

• Sarah: “Producer Scotty, you do not look 56. Like, I’m not even kidding.” (00:38)
• Nate: “Yeah, it is Scotty's birthday... thank you for making the show awesome.” (00:20)

2. Nate’s Bull Riding Experience (01:47 - 04:21)

Nate shares a personal anecdote about his adventurous yet painful experience riding bucking bulls, highlighting the physical risks involved.

• Nate: “First one broke my ribs... then I got concussed pretty hard.” (02:14)

Sarah humorously questions Nate’s decision to engage in such a risky activity, emphasizing the camaraderie and concern between the hosts.

3. Introduction to Nash Equilibrium (05:30 - 08:31)

Transitioning to the core topic, Sarah introduces the concept of Nash Equilibrium, a game theory principle that explains why competitors often reach a state where no player can benefit by changing their strategy unilaterally.

• Sarah: “Nash equilibrium is a no regrets equilibrium where every single player can say... I’m happy with my choice.” (07:00)

Sarah explains how this concept applies to e-commerce and marketing, illustrating how brands often end up matching each other’s strategies, such as pricing and discounts, leading to a stalemate where no brand gains a competitive edge.

4. Applying Nash Equilibrium to E-Commerce and Marketing (08:31 - 13:00)

Nate elaborates on how Nash Equilibrium manifests in the competitive landscape of e-commerce, particularly in pricing strategies.

• Nate: “We’re very focused on what we do... nothing they do affects what we do as long as we execute our plan well.” (09:08)

The hosts discuss the common scenario where brands continuously lower prices or offer discounts to stay competitive, resulting in a detrimental price war that erodes profit margins without offering unique value to customers.

5. Strategies to Overcome Nash Equilibrium (14:36 - 25:21)

To break free from the Nash Equilibrium, Sarah and Nate explore several strategies:

a. Introduce a New Variable (14:36 - 16:05)

Sarah suggests adding a new element that competitors cannot easily replicate, thereby shifting the competitive landscape.

• Sarah: “If every skincare brand is discounting, stop discounting and just offer hyper-personalized regimens.” (16:05)

b. Exploit Predictable Reactions (16:58 - 17:49)

By anticipating competitors’ moves, brands can position themselves to take advantage of predictable responses.

• Sarah: “If your rival always launches a 30% off sale near the holidays, run a limited drop two weeks prior with a 'we never discount' message.” (18:16)

c. Create a New Game (20:06 - 23:23)

Defining a completely new set of rules or market space can render existing competitive strategies obsolete.

• Sarah: “PillPack didn’t compete with CVS on pricing... they reframed the problem.” (21:46)
• Nate: “Liquid Death broke out of the bottled water game... doing their own thing.” (22:28)

d. Design for Signaling (24:42 - 25:21)

Sometimes, signaling a different approach can set a brand apart without directly competing on the same terms.

• Sarah: “A brand might refuse to list on Amazon or ban coupons to signal exclusivity.” (25:01)
• Nate: “We’re showing ads with watches and lighting cigarettes, which is refreshing.” (28:42)

6. Real-World Examples and Case Studies (13:00 - 25:21)

The hosts reference several brands that have successfully navigated competitive equilibria:

• ProActive: Introduced a systematic skincare regimen rather than just selling products, redefining the problem they solve.
• Burger King vs. McDonald’s: Burger King consistently targets McDonald’s with witty ads, setting itself apart in the fast-food industry.
• Liquid Death: Positioned itself uniquely in the bottled water market by adopting a bold brand personality.
• PillPack: Changed the narrative around prescription management by emphasizing convenience and organization over traditional pharmacy services.

7. Hosts’ Personal Strategies and Company Practices (25:21 - 29:30)

Nate and Sarah discuss their own approaches to avoiding the pitfalls of Nash Equilibrium:

• Nate: “I don’t look at competitors for inspiration... We try to do things other brands can’t.” (09:08)
• Sarah: Emphasizes focusing on customer needs over competing with others, fostering innovation and differentiation.

They highlight their company's efforts to create unique partnerships and marketing strategies that distinguish them from competitors, avoiding the trap of merely replicating others' tactics.

8. Content Creation and Social Media Dynamics (25:21 - 28:58)

The conversation shifts to the challenges of content creation in the age of platforms like TikTok, where brevity often trumps depth.

• Sarah: Shares her experience with TikTok, noting that longer, more in-depth content can still gain traction despite platform trends.
• Nate: Observes the "TikTokification" of content, encouraging a balance between engaging storytelling and platform-specific formats.

They discuss strategies for maintaining authenticity and uniqueness in content while adapting to the fast-paced nature of social media.

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts (28:58 - 30:48)

In wrapping up, Nate and Sarah reiterate the importance of not fixating on competitors but instead focusing on creating distinct value for their customers. They summarize the key takeaway:

• Nate: “Don’t worry about your competitors. Make your own game.” (29:12)
• Sarah: Emphasizes market differentiation and the necessity for brands to redefine their own rules to thrive.

The episode concludes with promotional information about their respective platforms and a light-hearted sign-off, maintaining the personable and engaging atmosphere established throughout the discussion.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Understanding Nash Equilibrium: Recognizing how competitors often settle into a state where no one gains by changing strategies alone helps brands identify stagnation in their approaches.
• Breaking Free from the Status Quo: Introducing unique variables, exploiting predictable competitor reactions, creating entirely new market games, and designing signals can help brands differentiate and thrive.
• Focus on Customer Needs: Prioritizing what customers truly want over mimicking competitors fosters innovation and long-term success.
• Balanced Content Creation: Adapting to social media trends while maintaining depth and authenticity can enhance brand presence without compromising on quality.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Levinger (07:00): “Nash equilibrium is a no regrets equilibrium where every single player can say... I’m happy with my choice.”
• Nate Legos (09:08): “We’re very focused on what we do... nothing they do affects what we do as long as we execute our plan well.”
• Sarah Levinger (16:05): “If every skincare brand is discounting, stop discounting and just offer hyper-personalized regimens.”
• Nate Legos (29:12): “Don’t worry about your competitors. Make your own game.”

---

This episode of Brain Driven Brands delves deep into the psychological and strategic aspects of marketing within competitive markets, offering actionable insights for e-commerce brands aiming to break free from conventional strategies and achieve sustainable growth through innovation and differentiation.

Transcript

[Nate Legos]

Free audio post production by alfonic.com welcome back to Brain Driven Brands. Before we start, happy birthday to producer Scotty.

[Sarah Leminger]

Scotty, it's your birthday.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah. Is it really?

[Nate Legos]

Yep. It is Scotty's birthday, Scotty. So I think you're closer him in age than me, but happy, happy birthday, producer Scotty. Thank you for making the show awesome. If you guys like all the music and cuts and everything, that's. That's all Scotty. So.

[Sarah Leminger]

Producer Scotty, you do not look 56. Like, I. I'm not even kidding. I thought you were like 45. Maybe today I do I look drained? Like, look at all. No color in my face. I look like I'm dying because I just flew in on a flight. But producer Scotty, happy birthday. Also. Why did you not tell me? I didn't even know this was a thing. How did Nate know, but I didn't know? Well, like, how does this happen to me?

[Nate Legos]

Just more considerate and a better friend and all the above. Well, hey, today. Welcome back. This episode is brought to you by. Tired and concussed Sarah had a red eye.

[Sarah Leminger]

Look at this.

[Nate Legos]

My brain's not great. Some broken ribs.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, man. We're not doing podcasting.

[Nate Legos]

Have to. To go on the show must go.

[Sarah Leminger]

On the show must go on. And also, podcasting apparently doesn't require you to be a very coherent person.

[Nate Legos]

There's one thing. There's one thing I've learned from listening to a lot of podcasts. High brain function.

[Sarah Leminger]

Whatever it is you feel like doing. Yep. Yep. So for those of you who don't know, poor Nate decided to just not poor Nate.

[Nate Legos]

It was self employed.

[Sarah Leminger]

Decided to go and be friends with a bull. A real live bull, like, type of a bull. Yeah. And I don't know why you would choose to do that as a person, but he did, and it sounded great. What was the experience like? I need to ask you.

[Nate Legos]

Terrifying.

[Sarah Leminger]

So why would you get on something with that much muscle is my question.

[Nate Legos]

I don't want, first of all, in my life, they're big. This guy told me they had, like, beginner bulls. That's not a thing.

[Sarah Leminger]

There is no such thing.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, these are like big, full ground bucking bulls. First one I got. I mean, first of all, I. I rode two. I don't think I stayed on for a combined three.

[Sarah Leminger]

You got to write two. I thought you only read one.

[Nate Legos]

No, I got two. The first one broke my ribs, but I was like, that's all right. I'll go one more. And then that one did you feel it?

[Sarah Leminger]

Like, I've never broken a bone.

[Nate Legos]

I knew immediately. Yeah, I knew immediately, but I was like, well, here's. Here's the thing. The first one didn't look great on camera, and I was like, let me try to get one more. The second one I did stay on for a little bit longer, but then got concussed pretty hard.

[Sarah Leminger]

Sir.

[Nate Legos]

That's scary. Holy. I got the wind knocked out of me, which sucked. Yeah, I think my head hit the ground pretty hard, dude. Like, my. My ears were just ringing, and it's all like. You know, like, when you lay outside and you're, like, eyes are closed, but you're staring, like, at the sun, and you open your eyes and looks, all, like, weird and. Yeah, that's what it looked like for a little while. Jeez.

[Sarah Leminger]

This is the definition of, like, you're just doing it for the Instagram, like, 100%. Nate was doing it for the grams. I'm. I'm, like, semi proud, but also just like, why, like, why would you. If it hurt the first time, why would you get back on and do it again? But. All right, you know, to each their own. And I. I am proud of you, I guess. Back on again.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. My wife.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, I bet she probably was like, listen, my guy, we're. We're gonna. We're gonna have some things we're doing this year, and I don't need you.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

To die, like, right before this happened. Okay, interesting. Now, the only thing I really. Well, the other. Okay. The only thing I really want to know, though, is, like, when you get kicked off a bull and you're up in the air, what are you thinking at that moment?

[Nate Legos]

Like, I should have held on tighter.

[Sarah Leminger]

That's what's going through your head.

[Nate Legos]

Well, not.

[Sarah Leminger]

I'm questioning my life choices.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, no, no, I never did that. I'm still not. The first time I was getting bucked off, I thought, like, oh, I should have held on tighter. And then the second time I was getting bucked off, I thought, oh, I've done this before. This is going to hurt. Like, I. I knew.

[Sarah Leminger]

I was like, yeah, you knew it was coming. Oh, all right. So I. I mean, I'm not as bad as you. I. I just traveled back from being in Hawaii for three straight. Glorious.

[Nate Legos]

Sarah's about to come compare her paradise vacation.

[Sarah Leminger]

By the way, to me, 100%, I don't do well when I don't sleep. So let's. Let's all be real. This is just Sarah complaining for no reason at all because I have to have something to compare your pain to. I don't have any pain. It just. I didn't sleep for the last 24 hours because it was a freaking night flight and of course, took us forever to get home. So, yeah, running off of no sleep. I'm on three cups of coffee and, yeah, I'm just. I'm exhausted. So if you notice that I look pale or I look like I have bags under my eyes, that's why it's not anything cool at all. I flew late.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Sounds cool. What are we gonna talk about today?

[Sarah Leminger]

Okay, this is what I'm saying, though. I. I had to come up with something fast, and I found something the other day that I was like, you might be interested in this psychological concept or you might think, I'm sorry, super crazy nerdy. So now I'm just gonna, like, bring it up to you because I haven't actually posted this one on Twitter. Found this on TikTok the other day, which my husband laughs at me. He's like, oh, my God, you're always on Tik Tok. And I'm like, I learned things here. Like, I actually do learn things.

[Nate Legos]

It's a very flattering impression of your husband.

[Sarah Leminger]

Oh, my God. Anyway, he's consumer, Casey. He knows what's up. I found something from Game Theory that describes a situation where basically equilibrium happens inside competitive markets. This is specifically when it comes to, like, competing against someone in a game. But when I heard it, it was quite fascinating because it basically says that as long as everyone keeps the status quo, you changing your strategy won't do anything at all, which exactly, like, your brain goes, wait, what? That doesn't make any sense at all. So this is something called the Nash equilibrium. And I guess if you're like a big gamer, you know what this is. I've never heard of this in my life because I'm not a big gamer. What is Nash equilibrium? Well, it's basically a no regrets equilibrium where every single player, after all of the dust is settled, all is said and done, every player can say, given what the other player or players did, I'm happy with my choice. The Nash equilibrium is. Is a concept from Game Theory that describes a situation where no player can benefit by changing their strategy as long as the other players keep their strategies unchanged. Now, that's a long winded way of basically saying that everyone's doing their best. So if you decide in the middle of the game, and I'm gonna get to my point here, in a Second, if you decide in the middle of the game, I'm gonna freaking change my strategy, it's not going to increase your chances of winning. Now, this plays into E Commerce and marketing because, say, for example, you have two E Commerce brands that are selling, like, similar products. Say it's like supplements or whatever it is. Each brand can either keep their prices high, right? So like, premium strategy, or they can lower their prices. That's kind of the only thing that they can really do in this competitive market. Nash equilibrium, though, basically states that if brand A lowers their prices, brand B is forced to match it or lose sales. Right. That makes sense. If brand B lowers their prices, brand A has to do the same, but eventually they'll both just settle at, like, a stable price point. But nobody wants to be the first to do that. So in these competitive markets, according to this Nash Equilibrium, you can't really win unless your competitors change with you, is what this is saying. That was a long winded way to say that. That's why I had to explain it, because I was like, I'm trying to still get this in my head. I'm like, I'm so confused by this. But according to this, so nobody's winning.

[Nate Legos]

I think this. I think this actually applies to brand building in, like, two different ways.

[Sarah Leminger]

Okay. All right. I'm.

[Nate Legos]

The first way is, like, I don't look at any of our competitors for inspiration. I don't look at a single one's ad account. I don't look at their copy. I don't look at their prices. Because I just fundamentally don't think, like, that matters to me at all. Like, we are very focused on what we do. And, like, the only thing that's close is, like, I take inspiration from Rolex ads from the 70s when they actually advertised well.

[Sarah Leminger]

Okay.

[Nate Legos]

But, like, I don't take anything from our competitors today.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nate Legos]

And I think that's super important because it doesn't matter at all. Nothing they do affects what we do as long as we, like, execute our plan well.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nate Legos]

That's the first half of it. The second half of it is, like, we try to do things other brands in our category can't. Yeah, because. And, like, according to this, like, we're basically baiting them into being, like, go ahead, try to do what we do.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nate Legos]

We know you can't do it like us as good. As good as us, as consistent as us with the partners that we have. So. Yeah, I think it kind of goes, like, two ways. One, never look at your competition at All.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Two, use whatever you have to your brand's advantage, to your advantage, knowing that your competitors will lose if they try to match you.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, well, and this is really interesting because it brings up to mind because again, I don't. I need to dig deeper into this like Nash Equilibrium thing because it was basically a guy that was like really into gaming. Nash was his last name. Because clearly you just name things after yourself as soon as you discover them.

[Nate Legos]

That's huge.

[Sarah Leminger]

This is interesting.

[Nate Legos]

Like the Legos principle.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yours is unfortunately already taken. So you know, Lagos is a thing.

[Nate Legos]

The building blocks.

[Sarah Leminger]

That's what I'm saying. Somebody already took it. But anyways, regardless, so Nash Equilibrium, this guy basically was stating like, as long as everybody thinks they're doing the best that they possibly can, like they're developing the best strategy that they can, nobody's ever really going to come out on top unless somebody changes specifically the perceived risk reward calculus is what he called it. So you basically have to come up with something that's drastically different. Great example of this. If your E commerce store always offers like a 20% discount, customers are just going to expect that. Right? So like, if you stop discounting, they're just going to wait to buy because they're like waiting for it to happen because. Yeah. So they're just going to go search for any sort of coupon code. Even if you don't want to stop offering that discount, you have to because that's like an equilibrium in your business and it's possible all your competitors are too. Right. So no one can remove like discounts without losing customers. Even though everyone would benefit from not running discounts. This is what, this is why I'm like so interested in this. Because I'm like, are we all kind of screwing each other up and like screwing each other over because we're studying.

[Nate Legos]

Each other well, because we've all chosen price and discounts as like the thing to raise to the bottom on. We're like, imagine if we all thought, like, what if we just had to create the highest quality content. Imagine how different like the online shopping ecosystem would look and feel and can.

[Sarah Leminger]

Be if you didn't know what your competitor was doing and didn't even know that they were trying to develop their own best strategy. I, I truly believe we'd probably be more innovative because we wouldn't copy each other so much.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

And you would actually do better because you weren't looking at what everyone else is doing and trying to basically get to the mean.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

Which is what I think Happens in marketing all the time. We just constantly study competitors, what they're doing, what they're running, what discounts, whatever. And then we just, we try and get like a blend of what we think we should do and kind of a little bit of what they should do. But according to Nash, equilibrium kind of just screw it ourselves because we'll never be different. You can never be different. Everybody's going to try their hardest and eventually you're all just gonna look the same.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, we, I, I looked at a competitor's ads the other day because we're trying to break into a new category and I was like, let me see what they're up to.

[Sarah Leminger]

Okay.

[Nate Legos]

I went and looked and realized there was nothing of value worth taking.

[Sarah Leminger]

Okay.

[Nate Legos]

Because they're not good at content at all.

[Sarah Leminger]

Are you sure? Like, not even one thing?

[Nate Legos]

Yep.

[Sarah Leminger]

Oh, okay.

[Nate Legos]

Very sure. And one day I'll tell the story of who they were.

[Sarah Leminger]

Okay, that's amazing.

[Nate Legos]

But the other thing I thought is, like, I have no interest in creating ads for this new product the way that they do. Like, I want to create the original grain way and like, and make them look like our ads and communicate the way that we do. And I just think that's way more needed. Like, yes, we are. Like, I write ad briefs for my team weekly and like, I put a bunch of inspo on there. Not one of them is a watch ad. Like, I just, I just don't think it matters that much because then we end up creating content that blends in.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yes.

[Nate Legos]

And it's like, well, why would you want to do that?

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, well, apparently there's like an actual psychological reason that this happened. So I, I just find it really interesting because it's almost like, maybe don't try your best. Like, don't try your hardest because everyone else is too. And it doesn't matter if you change your strategy at the end. Like, as long as everybody's just continuing to keep the status quo, it's just going to keep going. So they, I asked chat, what the hell should people do then? If you're an E commerce brand, especially if you're in a saturated market and everyone is trying their absolute hardest to get the best strategy out there, marketing wise, what the heck are we supposed to do? So how many did it give me? It gave me quite a few ideas for this. So, like, five different ideas. First one, introduce a new variable they can't ignore. So if the current equilibrium is stable, you need to make the other player reevaluate their payoff so that they change their strategy, which I think is what, like, McDonald's and Burger King do a lot, right?

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

So, like, Burger King is freaking amazing at coming after McDonald's in the funniest way. One of the things that I just saw, they ran an ad where if you scanned your phone, like, scan the QR code with your phone. It was for a McDonald's ad. If you scan the McDonald's ad QR code with your phone, the ad would go up in flames on your phone, obviously. Yeah, it would, like, go over flames. And then behind it was a Burger King ad. I was like, that is the funniest thing I've ever heard. It just, like, blew up.

[Nate Legos]

See? But, like, I've never seen. I've never seen it go the other way. I've never seen McDonald's attack Burger King. I've only seen Burger King, like, poke them. And to me, that. That's like, oh, that's easy to tell who the loser is.

[Sarah Leminger]

I feel like McDonald's has.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, I think you seem like such a loser.

[Sarah Leminger]

Like, oh, I. I love Burger King. Like, I love them.

[Nate Legos]

Because that's the wildest thing you've ever said. We're 94 episodes in, and you admitted that you love Burger King.

[Sarah Leminger]

Burger King.

[Nate Legos]

Damn.

[Sarah Leminger]

Freaking fantastic.

[Nate Legos]

Are you.

[Sarah Leminger]

I actually like it a lot better. 100. I come from very, like, humble backgrounds. Anyways, me too.

[Nate Legos]

But come on, dollar menu. What are we doing?

[Sarah Leminger]

The dollar menu isn't a dollar anymore. How do you not know this?

[Nate Legos]

I know, but we're rich.

[Sarah Leminger]

Okay, so, number one, introduce some sort of new variable that they can't ignore. So if every skincare brand is discounting, stop discounting.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

Oh, oh, there we go. Scotty goes. Got one. Okay, so McDonald's, Burger King have a long history of poking fun at each other. What did McDonald's do, though?

[Nate Legos]

Burger King is more known for directly targeting McDonald's, so.

[Sarah Leminger]

Very true. Okay, but McDonald's is still taking shots. All right. Okay, we'll come back to that. But this is really interesting. So if you have, like, a skincare brand and everybody else is discounting, stop discounting and just offer, like, hyper personalized regimens is what Chat says. Right. So now it's not just price versus price, it's price versus outcome. This is the reason why ProActive won in the 1990s. Because skincare before that was just like, here's a bottle of skincare. That's the only one you get Proactive systematized it and said, no, you need 1, 2, 3. You need a system and they frickin exploded. In the early 2000s, like 1990s, they introduced a new variable that people could ignore. Number two on here, Exploit predictable reactions.

[Nate Legos]

Yep.

[Sarah Leminger]

So if you know what your competitor will do, you can bait them into suboptimal moves, which I think like Nate's kind of good at.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

Because you're sitting here spotting people like they're not good at anything. So I know I can go this way. And they're not able to compete.

[Nate Legos]

I know. And like we've seen it already. Some brands try to work with the same partners that we have, some same kind of influencers. And I'm sitting here like, go ahead. I know that one. They're not gonna like you. Okay. Because you're not like a fun 30 year old guy to hang out with. So like you're gonna end up paying them more than I paid them because we drank whiskey for a night together and we're friends now.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Two, I know you're not going to be able to squeeze all the revenue and profit out of these deals like we can. So like, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Worse than us and blow a bunch of money.

[Sarah Leminger]

Maybe do it the way like burger King and McDonald's are like, do it kindly and funnily. No, I mean, you don't have to be like mean about it if you don't want to. Or I mean, if you want like to go Nate's route, you can. But in general, this is really interesting. Right? Like you can absolutely just go take a look at what your competitors are doing slightly. Like I know I just said don't sell your competitors, but at least keep track of it to know what they're running at this point. Really?

[Nate Legos]

Yep.

[Sarah Leminger]

Not at all.

[Nate Legos]

It doesn't matter.

[Sarah Leminger]

That's it. How are you going to know? Oh, like one look. You mean like one look a year?

[Nate Legos]

What am I going to know? What do I need to know? Okay, so that's going to help me like create better content that speaks more clearly to our customers. Products that are better.

[Sarah Leminger]

Like yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nate Legos]

I mean, what is Tree Hut Watch company going to teach me about my customers?

[Sarah Leminger]

I don't know. Probably nothing. According to Chat though. Like if your rival always launches like a 30% off site wide sale near the holidays, you can run a limited drop two weeks prior with like a we never discount message. That's what it's talking about is like exploit kind of predictable reactions. If they're going to run a deep discount for Black Friday, don't run a deep discount for Your brand and instead build bundles. Do some sort of a layered thing.

[Nate Legos]

I guess we do this, like, on the macro, but not straight from looking at, like, direct competitors. Like, Last year, on November 1, we launched our Better Than Black Friday sale.

[Sarah Leminger]

That's right. Like, that was so smart. Go back.

[Nate Legos]

It's different than what everyone else did, so I guess. All right, I'm looking at, like, the industry, not, like, our category.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Oh, my gosh. This is such an interesting episode. I hope you guys are liking this because, like, I find game theory really interesting and I don't understand games at all. This is fantastic, though, because this is teaching me a whole lot about, like, I didn't realize that you guys don't study your competitors a lot. Like, I know you don't look at them deeply, but I love the fact that you're not introducing bias. Like, you don't have any of your competitors stuff in your head, which is very different from almost everybody else. Everybody I talk to wants to study their competitors harder.

[Nate Legos]

I just think it's so hard to, like, then not end up just replicate what they're doing. Like, yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

Oh, my gosh. So true.

[Nate Legos]

Like, I know, like, musicians who, like, have to stop listening to music when they're, like, writing a new album because they're like, that'll subconsciously get in my brain and I'll end up writing stuff that sounds, like, similar to what's out there. So, yeah, I think for, like, the vast majority of marketers should not be looking at competitors. It doesn't matter every time you think about competitors, think about your customers instead.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yes, thank you. I've been struggling with this hard. This is actually a really good episode for me lately because I have. I have felt, and this is a hundred percent just based upon views, I felt that, like, my content is a little stagnant this. This summer. Like, in June, I did really well. Lots of really good bang.

[Nate Legos]

Traveling for nine weeks.

[Sarah Leminger]

That's what I'm saying. Like, I'm a little tired. But also then in July, I'm trying to come up with good concepts. I'm like, look at all these interesting things. Crickets. Like, very quiet in Twitter land lately. So, of course I get really, like, nervous about it, and I'm like, okay, I need to go on Twitter and, like, see what everybody else is posting. And I was reading a bunch today, and I'm like, oh, people aren't really posting anything. Like, we're all kind of just posting the same thing that we posted in 2023 and 2022 and 2021. So I'm like, interesting. Jing. So it actually benefits me to not look at those people because that's fascinating. Okay, all right, we'll skip number three because that one we agree. Terrible. Number four, create a new game, which I kind of like this one. The ultimate escape from equilibrium is to define the rules of a new game entirely. So example on here, which I don't. We might have to do a whole breakdown of this. Do you remember?

[Nate Legos]

This is genius, actually. This is like, this is the thing to do if you're building a brand.

[Sarah Leminger]

Oh my gosh. So Pillpack didn't compete with CVS on like pricing or anything. Pillpack really took on the entire prescription industry by just reframing their problem. Right. So everybody thought the problem was that I can't get prescriptions to my home. Yeah, that's not the problem. The problem is that taking pills suck. Like, taking pills is just hard to manage. So they didn't go pharmacy to pharmacy. They weren't trying to compete with other pharmacies. They just made it like convenience versus chaos because they just printed the frickin time that you should take the pills. And what pills were in that particular, like bucket on the packaging.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, I think Liquid death is a good example of this. Like they were not competing against Aquafina.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

You know what I mean? Like, like they, they broke out of the game of like bottled water. No, we're going to do our own game completely. And like, good luck.

[Sarah Leminger]

Do you think you guys do that? Have you redefined the game or are you like inching your way over there?

[Nate Legos]

Maybe like a little bit with some of our partners.

[Sarah Leminger]

Like, okay.

[Nate Legos]

And that's why, like, I, I really don't care about competitors. Is like, do you guys have a deal with Jack Daniels?

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Because until you do, like, we don't really belong in the same category.

[Sarah Leminger]

Like, you can't really talk to us.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. Like, go ahead, partner with Jim Beam trash Bourbon. Like go for it, you know, but yeah, like we're maybe inching our way there. Not enough. We've got some, some things coming that I think like, will continue to push us in that direction.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah.

[Nate Legos]

Where it's just like where it takes us from like a watch company, like a true lifestyle brand that people just like and resonate with. But like, I think that is the game and you cannot get there and you cannot do that if you're constantly studying your competitor.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, I would agree. Because you're just going to copy. You're just going to copy what they're doing. Interestingly enough, I think true category differentiation is incredibly rare. Incredibly rare. No matter how good you think your brand is and how amazing you like. Oh, we love it. Look at how like our USP and our features better. Nobody that I've seen truly differentiates unless you're really at like pill pack liquid death. Like differentiation in a market is actually really hard to get because it comes down to somebody noticing the obvious. Somebody noticed something that was just completely obvious and then solved it. Most marketers like to make things very difficult and most brands really love to overcomplicate what we're actually solving. You're not solving that much. People like go for the obvious because once you solve it like Pillpack did, then you can get bought by Amazon for $1 billion. Actually, I think it was like a. How much? It was like 100 billion, something like that. It was like amazing billion, whatever the number. See Lots of billions. Very tired.

[Nate Legos]

Anything with a B is a lot of money, I think.

[Sarah Leminger]

Last one from chat, which we could. We're scratching out three. So technically this is the number five. This is technically number four. Designed for signaling. Sometimes the smartest move isn't to win the game. It's to show others you're willing to play differently. So in a crowded e commerce space, a brand might refuse to list on Amazon.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

Ban coupons, which is something I tell everybody. Stop running discounts. Stop it. Ship slower but in beautiful handcrafted packaging. Who does this? Basically just to signal like, we're not competing for everyone, we're just competing for the select few. So yeah, I agree with that one.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah, I like that a lot. And like, I think it's super valuable in a time where like everyone is trying to be the cheapest, the quickest. Be the one that takes time. Like, you know, like some of our, our best copy this year is like, you know, whiskey isn't made in a day. These watches take a hundred years to mature and be developed. And yes, your order is made to order. So wait 12 weeks before you get it.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, guys, I, I think that consumers are ready for it. I think they're kind of done with this, like quick, flashy, cheap, you know what?

[Nate Legos]

Did you watch Happy Gilmore too?

[Sarah Leminger]

No, but it's on our list. We're supposed to watch it last night and then we got too tired.

[Nate Legos]

All right, So I, I won't give any spoilers, but what I'll tell you is it felt like a two hour long tick tock.

[Sarah Leminger]

Whoa.

[Nate Legos]

And that was like really disappointing and frustrating to me.

[Sarah Leminger]

Oh, yeah.

[Nate Legos]

The whole time I literally craved, like, hey, stop cutting. Stop doing, like, slow down. Because they were like, yeah, like, let some of these moments breathe. And like, I think like, there's a tick tock ification happening to brands, happening to a bunch of digital.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yep.

[Nate Legos]

Content. Like, I think the Savannah Bananas have like, tick tockified baseball. And it's like, I don't think we should be making more things in our life like that.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yep, yep. Like, I agree. Oh, yeah, that hits me deep. Especially because I'm trying to get on Tik Tok and post on there more often now. I. Oh, such an. Such a great, like, case study for this. The best video that I have on there right now. I only have six videos. The best video I have has 1.4 million views.

[Nate Legos]

Nice flex.

[Sarah Leminger]

Guess what? Their comment, the top comment is on this video.

[Nate Legos]

Damn, she looks 36. Is that what it said?

[Sarah Leminger]

No, it is not about me.

[Nate Legos]

I commented that I wasn't sure if that was the.

[Sarah Leminger]

The. The most common comment that I have on this particular video is she yaps too much because it's a two minute long video. Yes. Two minutes. I'm sorry, two minutes is too long for you. Tick tock. Are you kidding me? Like, yes. Everybody on there is like, I. I stopped listening. She's been talking for ages. This is way too long. I'm like, so don't watch.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah.

[Sarah Leminger]

So it popped off and went like 1.4 freaking million views because everybody had to come on here and tell me that I was talking too much. I was like, well.

[Nate Legos]

And again, like, that is different than TikTok content. And it crushed.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah, that's why I'm like, I think I might do more. Long winded. Very boring. Just.

[Nate Legos]

Can I post full podcast episodes on TikTok?

[Sarah Leminger]

I don't know, but I kind of want to. You could post them to 10 minutes. So I might just take a podcast episode and chunk it down.

[Nate Legos]

Some of mine are less than 10.

[Sarah Leminger]

So I was saying just like, here we go. Let's see what does. All right.

[Nate Legos]

Do you know what the other thing that I think kind of goes into this? I showed you the comment of yes, Scotty, I know this episode's long.

[Sarah Leminger]

Scott is like, wrapped it up. Scotty just told us we're yapping is what he did.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. Last thing about being, like, different. We're now showing ads where people are have a watch on and lighting cigarettes and people love them.

[Sarah Leminger]

Oh, man.

[Nate Legos]

The least we have gotten multiple comments of people being like, it's refreshing to see cigarettes in Ads again, like, let's go.

[Sarah Leminger]

And it's like, that's something that. Meta hasn't shut you down for that yet? Usually they're real. They're real picky about that kind of stuff.

[Nate Legos]

We're not selling that. It's the same reason we can show booze in our ads. It's like, well, we're selling a watch.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah. So true. Oh, all right. Oh, okay. We have to end this episode eventually. Any final thoughts on the Nash equilibrium? Interesting things.

[Nate Legos]

Yeah. Don't worry about your competitors. Make your own game.

[Sarah Leminger]

Yeah. Apparently you got to change your strategy to something that nobody else can compete with, which is market differentiation, people. We need to do a whole episode on that one. Oh, geez. I froze there for a second. Okay, where can people find you? They wanna.

[Nate Legos]

You guys can watch the Tactical and Practical podcast wherever you'd like. I don't yap as much in that one. Wow. But Sarah doesn't yap in it at all. So kind of pro and con. Or you can follow me on Twitter at Nade Legos.

[Sarah Leminger]

Lovely. You can follow me at Sarah Leminger anywhere you consume content these days. Please go check out that video on TikTok because it is hilarious. The comments are hilarious. Over there. They're either commenting about the french fry issue, which when you get over there, you'll see, or they're commenting about the fact that Sarah talks too much. So that's fun. Outside of that, please go check out Ted tether lab school.com tether-lab and that's s K O O L. That is where we're teaching all of this psychology based stuff. If you want to learn how to apply psychology to your brand and specifically behavior science to your ads to get better results and to cut costs and to Captivate the Masses, school.com backslash tether-lab thanks for joining me today. We did okay, considering we're definitely injured. Brain Driven Brands is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast network and is presented by Tether Insights. For more information go to tetherinsights IO.

[Nate Legos]

Free audio post production by alphonic.com.