Brain Driven Brands: "Retention Marketing Isn’t Marketing...It’s Habit-Building"
Host: Sarah Levinger
Guest: Alyssa Wallace (Retention and Lifecycle Marketing Expert)
Date: September 26, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Sarah Levinger is joined by Alyssa Wallace to demystify retention and lifecycle marketing in modern e-commerce. Together, they dig deep into why true retention isn’t just about marketing or running email campaigns—it's about building habits, creating genuine brand connections, and understanding real consumer behavior. The discussion covers practical strategies, the pitfalls of generic loyalty programs, and the need for more thoughtful, psychology-informed approaches to customer retention.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Defining Retention vs. Lifecycle Marketing
[02:17–03:18]
- Alyssa Wallace’s Definitions:
- Retention: How many times a customer returns to purchase – “It's like an action. Simple.” ([02:17])
- Lifecycle: The map of all touchpoints used to incentivize repeat purchases.
- Overlap and Industry Confusion:
The lines blur; often, email and SMS strategies mix acquisition and retention efforts, confusing not just marketers, but leadership at many brands. - Sarah’s Emphasis:
Many brands mistakenly believe their email list is made up of existing customers, when it’s actually mostly prospects ([03:23]).
QUOTES:
- “...just because somebody purchased it once does not mean they're going to be in the market to purchase it again for any reason ever. So if you're trying to get people to purchase again and again, that's habit building and behavioral like mechanism basically is what you're trying to build. Not marketing.” — Sarah [03:49]
2. Acquisition’s Role in Retention
[04:33–08:03]
- Nate’s Experience:
Data at Original Grain (watches) showed products with the highest ad spend weren’t always the ones producing the best long-term customer value. Instead, they optimized acquisition offers for lifetime value (LTV) rather than just getting sales ([04:33]). - Customer Timing Matters:
Customers acquired during sales events like Black Friday were less valuable than those acquired off-promo (August/September), as they’d buy again when the big sales hit. - Lifecycle Optimization:
Focusing acquisition on higher-value cohorts improves retention outcomes; getting the right customer in makes everything downstream easier.
QUOTES:
- “The amount of people that don't realize their email list is made up of majority prospects, not customers, is insane to me.” — Nate [03:23]
- “If you don't get acquisition right, then you have no chance of getting retention.” — Nate [08:03]
3. Understanding Customer Timing & Behavior
[08:03–11:49]
- Consideration Cycles:
Some customers wait a year to buy after first learning about a product. Brands must educate and stay top-of-mind over long periods ([08:33]). - Consumables/Cycles:
In CPG, default replenishment cycles don’t fit all customers—behavior varies, and reminders must be relevant to actual need ([09:41]). - Divergent Email Ecosystem:
Sarah notes that those who join the email list are often not the same as immediate buyers; their motivations and values differ.
4. Messaging Consistency Across Channels
[11:49–13:26]
- Misalignment is Common:
“Super inconsistent messaging from ads to emails” persists due to teams focusing creative energy on ads and neglecting email flows. - Effective Strategy:
Brands should echo winning messages from ads throughout all emails and touchpoints for a seamless customer journey.
QUOTE:
- “If we know exactly what messaging produces the best customer behavior, then we got to say it in the ad, in the caption, in the welcome email, on the landing page, on the post purchase email.” — Nate [12:47]
5. What Actually Drives Retention? Providing Real Value
[13:26–15:31]
- Alyssa’s Case Study (Breeze):
The most successful campaign was not a discount or offer, but mocktail recipes—no hard sell, just genuine value ([13:26]). - Human-Centric Approach:
Brands keeping it real, talking about everyday life, and providing practical or emotional value (not constant selling) tend to foster deeper loyalty. - Understanding Your Audience:
Recognizing buyers’ life context (ex: job dissatisfaction, financial pressure) is key to resonant communication.
QUOTE:
- “I think marketers underestimate how much most Americans hate their jobs... What matters to people is... they want people to understand and feel heard and feel seen.” — Nate [14:45]
6. The Future: Connection Over Channels
[16:47–21:41]
- Natural Selection in E-commerce:
Only products and brands that genuinely help people will survive—no amount of hacky tactics will substitute for quality ([16:47]). - Focusing on Fewer Channels:
Brands are consolidating onto the most effective channels (especially email) and questioning if SMS or other tactics are really necessary ([17:56]). - Specialization vs. Spreading Thin:
Alyssa recommends mastering one or two key communication channels rather than chasing every new platform or gadget.
QUOTE:
- “Ask yourself, are we running SMS because it's actually helping the customer or are we running it because we thought we could get more cash from it? Because that's not a good marriage.” — Sarah [19:09]
7. The Customer Experience: It’s About Them, Not You
[21:41–25:41]
- Retention Often Gets the “Leftovers”:
Email and retention marketers often work with what’s left after acquisition teams launch campaigns—this causes disconnect. - Segmentation for Success:
Advocating for separate landing pages for retention vs. acquisition so that emails can be targeted, relevant, and their impact measurable ([22:15–23:36]). - Experimentation & Playfulness:
Human, light-hearted approaches—like sending “here are my favorite sandwiches” emails—build goodwill and foster sharing far better than transactional messaging.
8. Loyalty: Make It Earned and Special
[25:41–27:47]
- Reward Returning Customers:
Alyssa argues loyalty should be genuinely earned, not simply given—with perks and a sense of achievement ([25:41]). - Gamification Works:
People desire to “earn” status, even if it’s hard: “They actually want it to be hard...they like to earn stuff.” - Retention as “Pen Pal”:
Sarah frames retention marketing as building a pen-pal-style relationship, grounded in ongoing, meaningful exchange—not just transactional mails.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:49 | Sarah | “Just because somebody purchased it once does not mean they're going to be in the market to purchase it again...that's habit building and behavioral like mechanism basically is what you're trying to build. Not marketing.” | | 08:03 | Nate | “If you don't get acquisition right, then you have no chance of getting retention.” | | 12:47 | Nate | “If we know exactly what messaging produces the best customer behavior, then we got to say it in the ad, in the caption of the ad, in the welcome email, on the landing page, on the post purchase email.” | | 13:26 | Alyssa | “Our mocktail recipe Evergreen campaign is consistently the highest performing and is even on par with any of our offer focused campaigns.” | | 14:45 | Nate | “Marketers underestimate how much most Americans hate their jobs... What matters to people is... they want to feel heard and feel seen.” | | 19:09 | Sarah | “Ask yourself, are we running SMS because it's actually helping the customer or are we running it because we thought we could get more cash from it? Because that's not a good marriage.” | | 25:41 | Sarah | “I can't tell you how much I wish people understood retention-based marketing is pen pal. You are a pen pal.” |
Important Timestamps
- 02:17 – Alyssa defines retention and lifecycle marketing
- 04:33 – Nate shares the Original Grain case study on optimizing for LTV over top-line sales
- 08:33 – Understanding customer consideration cycles
- 13:26 – Alyssa’s real-life example: mocktail emails outperform discount offers
- 16:47 – The future: only genuinely helpful products and brands survive
- 19:09 – Rethinking the channels you really need for your brand
- 22:15–23:36 – The argument for dedicated retention landing pages
- 25:41 – The case for earned, not automatic, loyalty programs
Conclusion
Sarah, Alyssa (and briefly, Nate) offer a refreshingly honest, psychology-grounded take on what really sustains e-commerce brands: authentic connections, behavioral insight, and a relentless focus on actual customer needs—not just “marketing hacks.”
Retention, they argue, is less about pushing offers, and more about becoming a habit in the customer's life. It's about showing up with value, relevance, and humanity at every touchpoint.
Follow Alyssa Wallace: Anytime on social platforms under X.AlyssaJeanX
Follow Sarah Levinger: At SarahLevinger everywhere