The 3 Forces Behind Every High-Performing Campaign in 2026

Summary

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Brain Driven Brands — "The 3 Forces Behind Every High-Performing Campaign in 2026"

Host: Sarah Levinger
Date: December 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this special episode, Sarah Levinger revisits foundational neuromarketing strategies used by leading 9-figure brands. She distills three powerful forces—emotion, timing, and framing—that drive high-performing eCommerce campaigns. Through real-world examples, psychological research, and lively banter, Sarah and co-host Nate Lagos uncover tactical lessons and mindsets for marketers aiming to supercharge campaigns leading into 2026.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Valence and Intensity Map: Emotions in Messaging

[00:38–03:10]

• Framework Introduction:
  Sarah details the Valence and Intensity Map—a psychology model highlighting that emotions range by type (valence: positive/negative) and strength (intensity: strong/mild).
• Four Emotional Zones:
  • Zone 1: High Valence, Low Intensity — calm, supportive (e.g., "reassuring")
  • Zone 2: High Valence, High Intensity — joy, pride, excitement (“aspirational marketing” often sits here)
  • Zone 3: Low Valence, Low Intensity — annoyed, tired, fatigued
  • Zone 4: Low Valence, High Intensity — panic, anxiety, stress
• Impact on Advertising:
  Where an emotion falls on this map drastically changes how audiences react to ads.

“If you’re doing high valence, high intensity, you’re going to feel joy, excitement, thrill, pride. This is usually what people default to in marketing... aspirational marketing.”
— Sarah Levinger [01:31]

Notable Moment

Nate jokes about e-commerce marketers “living in Zone 4” (high-intensity anxiety) except for Black Friday, when there’s a burst of (Zone 2) excitement.

“We live in Zone 4, Evergreen State.”
— Nate Lagos [03:10]

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2. Moving Beyond the “Who”: The Power of “When”

[03:24–09:47]

• Insight:
  Traditional marketing obsesses over customer identity (“who”). Sarah references Richard Shotton’s work, which argues for “when” over “who”: Context and timing are often more important than demographics.
• Behavioral Example:
  Neuromarketing studies reveal that customers’ emotional triggers (and resulting images or associations) shift based on context—like who they’re buying for (family vs. self).
• Practical Implication:
  Marketers can predict “buying spikes” and target ads at precisely the right moments to boost conversion rates.

“What we need to be talking about is when in time do they need it. Context is what he’s trying to get us to, like, focus on.”
— Sarah Levinger [04:39]

Memorable Study [06:30–07:20]

A woman associates Tylenol with a birthday cake—not because of noise, but because cake symbolizes nurturing. She chooses Tylenol for loved ones, a generic for herself—proof that context changes emotional meaning and brand preference.

“Cake represents nurturing... she apparently trusts Tylenol more than the generic brand, but only when she’s choosing it for her husband or her daughter. Whoa—‘when.’ ‘When?’”
— Sarah Levinger [06:34]

• Real-World Reflection:
  Nate admits to impulse-purchasing a box of Snickers during a stressful period, emphasizing how his purchase decision was about timing and context, not identity.
• Key Takeaway:
  “When” someone is exposed to a message or feels a need is often a stronger determinant of purchase than “who” they are.

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3. The Power of Abstract Framing: Getting People to Pay More

[12:00–15:57]

• Journal of Marketing Study (2020):
  Descriptive, abstract language in advertising increases perceived value. People will pay up to 35% more for products described abstractly rather than in concrete, detailed terms.
• Application:
  For acquisition/first-time customers, don’t fixate on features. Emphasize emotions, aspirations, and big-picture ideals.
• Examples:
  • Concrete: “This watch has XYZ features.”
  • Abstract: “Crush fear with every tick.” / “Show your man he’s worth it.”

“If you’re more definitive with your language, then people will pay less because they think they’re only getting one specific thing... If you’re abstract, people have a higher chance of paying more.”
— Sarah Levinger [12:02]

Notable Exchange

Nate draws a dating analogy: On a first date, you focus on making someone like you, not dumping details about yourself. Similarly, top-of-funnel messaging should focus on emotional connection, not product specs.

“Your goal is to get them to like you... you will uncover the details later.”
— Nate Lagos [15:37]

• Marketing Experiment:
  Nate describes running non-salesy, “first date” ad campaigns strictly to generate social and product page visits, lowering acquisition costs and creating warmer audiences.

“The content... is very, very not salesy. It’s very, very like, first date—‘Hey, we want you to like us.’ There are sick lifestyle pictures that [are] performing—oh my God—on them...”
— Nate Lagos [16:19]

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4. Don’t Rely On the Algorithm Alone: Break Out of the “Same Customer” Trap

[17:08–19:48]

• Current Paid Media Challenge:
  Many brands over-optimize for bottom-funnel, repeated-retention customers—the algorithm continually surfaces ads to the same audience, elevating costs and capping growth.
• Fix:
  Sarah urges brands to rebuild acquisition by targeting new, high-value segments with psych-tactics: emotion, timing, and abstract framing—rather than cost-caps and price-obsessed tweaks.

“The only thing you’re doing is going to be rinsing and repeating the same customer over and over... you just prove your, your, like, emotional value.”
— Sarah Levinger [19:23]

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The Big Takeaway: The Three Forces for Campaigns in 2026

[19:49–end]

Sarah summarizes the three key psychological forces behind every high-performing campaign:

1. Emotion: Decide your message (using the valence and intensity model).
2. Timing: Target your message to hit when prospects are primed (context, not just identity).
3. Framing: Use abstract language at the top-of-funnel to maximize perceived value.

“Emotion is gonna decide your message... Timing is gonna decide the moment that you’re trying to target in your ads... and framing is going to decide how much people are willing to pay for your product.”
— Sarah Levinger [19:49]

She emphasizes that brands able to execute on these quickly, creatively, and efficiently will see the fastest growth in 2026.

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Additional Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I think marketers have less of an impact on, like, consumers as we...as we think we do. In your particular case, when mattered way, way more to your purchase.”
  — Sarah Levinger [09:30]
• “Find the most valuable customers... the longevity of that customer is what we’re going after.”
  — Nate Lagos [19:15]

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Segment Timestamps (for Reference)

• [00:38] — Intro to valence and intensity model
• [03:24] — “Think about the when” insight (Richard Shotton)
• [06:30] — Tylenol study: Context changes emotional meaning
• [08:39] — Impulse purchases and timing
• [12:00] — Framing and the power of abstraction
• [15:17] — First date analogy for marketing
• [16:19] — “First date” Meta campaigns, results
• [17:52] — Paid media challenges, bottom-funnel trap
• [19:49] — Three-forces summary for 2026 campaigns

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Summary Table

| Force | What It Does | Tactical Focus | Example | |------------|------------------------------|---------------------------------------|-----------------------------| | Emotion | Shapes message & reaction | Use valence/intensity mapping | Calm vs. pride vs. panic | | Timing | Determines conversion moment | Target spikes in need/context | “When” over “who” | | Framing | Increases willingness to pay | Use abstract language at acquisition | “Crush fear with every tick”|

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Closing Tone

The episode is lively, accessible, and deeply practical, mixing science, candid confessions, and actionable takeaways. Sarah's encouragement: focus on these three forces, experiment boldly, and out-execute your competitors—because 2026 belongs to brands who master emotion, timing, and framing.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to Brain Driven Brands. Hope you guys are having good Thanksgiving. You had a good weekend this week. Nate and I are completely buried in lots of different, like, Black Friday, all kinds of craziness, prepping for the new year type stuff. So we didn't get a chance to record last week, but I wanted to pull some of our favorite episodes. Some of your favorite episodes from brain driven brands. 2025. Ones that I think are going to be critical for you to share with your team. But before you get to 2026 and do all of your prep and planning for the new year, first one up on the roster is from the episode Sarah Makes Nate Cry. Uh, this is the one where we actually went through the full system for tracking valence intensity and building your messages using the valence and intensity model. Um, and this one got really interesting because Nate had never actually heard of this before. So let's dive into it. So I was doing some research, of course, as I do. So Sarah is just weird. And I just go through a lot of, like, studies every single week just because it's interesting to me. Very dry, boring reading, but it's fascinating, Sarah. So one of the things that I was studying was a psychology model called the Valence and Intensity map. Valence has to do with what type of emotion you're using. So emotions are on a spectrum. And if you've ever been to therapy, you'll probably know this a lot. Right? We have to name our emotions. We teach our kids this a lot. And it's not just sad that you're feeling. You might be feeling frustrated, right? That's a type of sad, but sad mixed with a little bit of anger, frustration. You might feel happy, but it might also be pride that you're actually feeling. That's like, happy with, like, a little bit of, like, I feel good about myself. Right. So emotions are on a spectrum. Valence has to do with which emotions you're actually feeling. Is it very, very positive, like elation, joy? Or is it very, very negative, like rage and anger? Intensity has to do with how intense that emotion is. So right in the middle would be like, boredom. Just. It's like no emotion. It's just like, right in the middle somewhere. Yeah, like, just bored, apathetic. You have four different zones that these fit in, and where you kind of land inside the intensity map changes how people respond to your ad because you're technically communicating a different emotion, if that makes sense. But here's how this, like, kind of looks when you start to look at different emotions that are in different quadrants. Zone 1, high valence, low intensity is going to be like calm, supportive, reassuring. Just like nice feelings, but it's not very intense, right? If you're doing high valence, high intensity, you're going to feel joy, excitement, thrill, pride. This is usually what people default to in marketing. If you've ever heard the term, like, aspirational marketing, that's the zone. They're sitting in a zone two because they're just like, everything's great. You're gonna be amazing. Now's the time they like car sales in it drives me crazy when I get into this zone. Zone 3, Low Intensity and low valence is gonna be like, I'm annoyed, I'm disappointed, I'm fatigued, I'm tired. Like, I'm irritated. And then zone four, if you're like low valence, low emotion, but you're really intense with that emotion, is like panic, sadness, stress, loss, anxiety. Like, really intense feeling.

[B]

So E commerce marketers, Zone 4. We live in Zone 4, Evergreen State.

[A]

In, like, this poor look, anxiety. Okay, so.

[B]

And then like four days a year, Zone two, excuse, Enjoy.

[A]

Where it's like right across, right around Black Friday. We get really excited about it. This next part is something that not a lot of people in marketing are talking about right now. And that's the fact that people don't buy when they feel those emotions all the time. Those emotions are going to be spiking, right? They're going to be like, peak, dip, peak dip. And those spikes are actually very predictable. So if you can target those spikes and get your ad right in front of that person at just the right moment, you can predict conversions a whole lot easier and get people to buy a whole lot faster. So that's where this next clip comes in. And this one in particular was from one of my favorite episodes, actually. Marketers don't think about the who, think about the when. So, yeah, let's dive into this one because, oh, I love this episode. One in particular by Richard Shotton came up a couple of weeks ago where he was talking about. We talk way too much in marketing about who the customer is or who we're supposed to be speaking to. What we need to be talking about is when.

[B]

Whoa, When. That's not out of all the question words. That's not the one I thought you were going to say.

[A]

Tell me about it. I was like, what are you saying, Richard? Shout out to Richard Stratton if you want to come on my podcast. Please do, because you're amazing. But when? When.

[B]

So this Is not start with why or start with what this is. Start with when.

[A]

This is. Start with when. And you and I have done a little bit of this work where we're talking about specifically for your audience because you sell luxury watches, they're made from reclaimed wood. Like your amazing CMO who like does all this cool stuff with growth. But like, you got all this stuff going on and people are very interested in the brand attached to you guys. But you and I talk a lot about who this person is. Is he blue collar, is he a family guy? Like, who is he identity wise? What Richard is proposing is that we think specifically about not who needs this product, but when in time do they need it. Context is what he's trying to get us to like focus on. And I was like, as soon as he said it, I was like, what is that? I can't even wrap my head around that. What are you talking about? So did some research, dug deeper into it, and there's one specific company right now I need to bring up the article that's basically making something that can track these subconscious responses to when people need a solution to a problem. Something called Gerald Zaltman is a guy that's currently building this creator of Zmet, which is this. It's a tool that can basically just scan the subconscious while you're looking at advertising. But one of the examples they brought up was this woman was basically looking at Tylenol advertisements. And then they would say, okay, we want you to take a look at a Tylenol ad and a generic ad for the same painkiller. And then we want you to go back and bring images for what these two products mean to you, which I think is fascinating. I think everyone should do that because depending on the images they bring back. Right. It's deeper in the subconscious. It'll tell you emotionally what they feel about it.

[B]

They.

[A]

This one though was fascinating. So they had one woman that brought back a picture of a birthday cake. In relation. Yeah, in relation to Tylenol. And I was like, what is it?

[B]

Because kids birthday parties are loud and annoying as shit.

[A]

No. So that's the logical route. Right. So they were asking, why in the hell did you bring a picture of cake to represent your feeling of Tylenol? And she said, specifically, cake represents nurturing. So for her, she apparently trusts Tylenol more than the generic brand, but only when she's choosing it for her husband or her daughter. Whoa, when? When? So they asked her, will you get. Show us a different picture for when you're shopping for Yourself. And she chose a totally different picture, like something not emotional. So I'm like, holy. So in general, you have blue collar guys that are buying reclaimed wood watches. If they're buying for themselves, is it.

[B]

Like, that's a big moment for a guy? Yeah, yeah. Like, guys don't buy from themselves ever, but when they do, it's to acknowledge a big milestone.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's to reward themselves for an accomplishment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's a moment in their life. And yeah, sometimes it might be tied to Father's Day or Christmas, but, like, more, it's more often, I think, personal.

[A]

It's a moment. And so. Ah. And so to wrap this back around to, like, some science, they're doing a lot of studies now and they're building a lot of, like, technology that can tell you're going to purchase something before you purchase it. Based upon which sections of the brain light up as you're looking at advertisements. They can tell if you're going to purchase something. It's freaking.

[B]

That's super interesting because, like, there are definitely patterns in my life that I've seen where, like, I end up buying something that I didn't expect to buy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But then I look back on it, I'm like, that checks out. Like, that, like, I know for, like, as simple as, like, Q4 is busy time for me. I'm gonna get UberEats way more often. Oh, did I show you what I bought two days ago? Oh, give me a sec. Hold on. I bought the box of Snickers. I just grabbed it off the shelf and I was like, hey, can I just buy this whole thing?

[A]

Why did you buy so many?

[B]

Because I like them and you're my favorite. And, like, not to flex too hard, but, like, 50 bucks doesn't make a dent. You know, I'm like, I've spent 50 on a bottle of whiskey, which is what I would be doing tonight.

[A]

Okay, so, okay, this is really interesting because again, I, I, I kind of agree with the way Richard's going with just from like, a behavioral standpoint, we talk a lot about who and identity. And, like, now we're starting to talk a lot about emotion, which is fantastic. I love seeing that in the industry. But the next step of this is talking about when, context of when. Because if you're shopping by yourself, it's totally different than if you're shopping with a significant other.

[B]

I get that. If my wife was with me.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. If she was with you, would you, you wouldn't have bought it?

[B]

No. I. I would have brought it up, and she would have been like, don't do that. And I would have been like, all right.

[A]

Oh, my God. So this scares me a little bit because now it again, and this is something I've been saying for forever. I think marketers have less of an impact on, like, consumers as we. If, as we think we do. In your particular case, when mattered way, way more to your purchase for Snickers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then who. Your identity didn't matter. It just mattered. Oh, it's. I don't like it.

[B]

All right, so then let's talk. Let's bring this back to free consulting for me, because when we talk about, like, the original grain guy, something that I. I've been trying to think about is like, it's not my job to persuade every blue collar guy that drinks whiskey to buy one of our whiskey barrel watches. My job is, I think, to create content that speaks to those kind of guys when the time is right for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I hope it makes people realize what a miracle it is that people buy our products.

[A]

It's, like, fascinating.

[B]

I'm like, you need so much to go, right? And we take it for granted.

[A]

This episode just freaking solidified for me that I want to become a when marketer because, oh, there's so many interesting things that you can do if you're marketing towards the when. You got to pick the right emotions, the right intensity on it. You got to pick the timing really, really well so that you're landing right when people need to hear your message. But the way that you describe something drastically changes whether people are willing to pay for it or not. So let's walk into this last one here. This was one of my favorite episodes as well. They're all my favorite, but this one was the episode get people to pay 35% more by using this psych tactic. And this is where we kind of bring it all together. So, yeah, give this one a listen. I love this clip. This was a study done in 2020. So it's a recent one, said that people will pay 35% more for a tea brand when it was described using abstract language over, like, definitive language. So this one was posted in the Journal of Marketing, December 2020, and what they found was customers have, like, a more difficult time parting with their money if you're more definitive about what they're paying for. In general, what this means is if you're abstract with your language, people have a higher chance of paying more because they think it goes towards more stuff. If you're More definitive with your language, Then people will pay less because they think they're only getting one specific thing. Thing that makes sense. When I read this, I had to. Yeah, I had to read it, like, multiple times. I was like, what are they trying to say here?

[B]

We've been crushing this for a couple years.

[A]

So I'm like, no wonder you can pay higher prices for you.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

So you already do it.

[B]

This is the difference between telling people, like, hey, I have this watch to sell you.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Incoming original grain ad. We do one an episode, by the way, and I can tell you all about the movement and the material and what it's made from and how long it took to make it being very definitive and concrete about what you're buying. Or we could say one of your headlines is crushed for us confidence with every tick. Or, you know, show your man he's worth it.

[A]

Exactly. Yes.

[B]

Like, we are now speaking to so much, I don't know, broader, more abstract, but bigger needs that people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

By not getting into the nitty gritty details.

[A]

Yes. Well, and it's just quite interesting because. Okay, so what they're talking about here is people who feel distant from the brand. I think what they mean is acquisition level customers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't know why they say it that way. So weird with. Studies are weird the way that they, like, bucket people. But for you guys in particular, at acquisition level, it sounds like people aren't really concerned about, like, how your watch is made or what's inside of it. They are a little bit attached to materials. So, like, that's a part of your marketing ecosystem. But for the most part, top level customers are hearing a lot more of this abstract, more, like emotional level language instead of going for just features or even benefits, really.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You guys are almost like one level higher than that. Ooh, geez. Which is, like, just knocking things around, which is more psychologically focused. And according to this study, people who are inside the brand that feel closer to it sounds like they pay even more. So for the tea brand, acquisition level customers pay 35% more when marketing material is abstract. And retention customers pay 28% more when the language was abstract. This is bonkers.

[B]

It's such a big deal. And I think a lot of us in D2C could use this because we hammer features and we even hammer benefits a ton. But this is one of the reason why you've never seen an us versus them ad from us.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Because I think, like, hey, you are just focusing on, like, the smallest thing. Yeah. Or like, the smallest you know, differences or features or whatever. When you should be selling a much broader aspirational lifestyle.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And we miss that again and again in Ecom.

[A]

I find it really interesting because I think we get this assumption in marketing that at the top we need to prove our worth when from what the research shows at the top, it's actually more important that you just prove your, your, your like emotional value. Yeah, that sounds really weird, but like, it's almost the difference between like, my husband's bringing me food. That's very nice. He could have just texted me and be like, I have a bagel and an egg and I have like salt and pepper. Does this sound appetizing to you? Instead he texted me and he was like, have you had breakfast yet? Right. There are two ways of selling what he's trying to sell me. But he didn't have to tell me what he was going to make. He literally just said, are you hungry? And was an emotional attachment of like, are you doing okay? Can I get you anything? I think stuff. I'm like, what?

[B]

I think this goes into like the first date metaphor. Really? Well, of like, you don't show up to dinner and you're not like, hey, so listen, here's the deal. This is how much money I make. This is my credit score, it's my height and weight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what I like to do. Like, your goal is to get them to like you.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You will uncover the details later.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And like, I think that's so obvious when we talk about dating, especially if the details aren't that great. You gotta get em like you before you pull the rug out on em. But like, that makes all the sense in the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But so many of our ads running to cold prospecting traffic.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is like, hey, here's all the details about our brand. And you're like, I don't even know you. Like, why do I care what your watch is made from? I don't know you. I don't like you. Some things we've been doing like get people to know us and like us before we sell to them. We are running some non conversion campaigns on Meta right now. This is the first time I've talked about this publicly, so watch out.

[A]

Whoa. You heard?

[B]

But we're running ad campaigns to get people to visit our Instagram. We're running ad campaigns to get us to view a pdp. And the content in those campaigns is very, very not salesy. It's very, very like, first date. Hey, we want you to like us. They're sick lifestyle pictures that performing oh my God on them, like that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's going well. We think. It's one of those things that's like, hard to measure. I can't like, can't tell you it's making us a million bucks yet. But I can tell you our cost per lead this year is way down from last year. We are getting so much more efficient at acquiring leads, which for us, 30 days before our Father's Day sale goes live.

[A]

Yeah, that's huge.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

Massive. This is really interesting because I've actually been talking to three different brands this week. I talked to three founders who were all kind of in the same boat of like, we are not sure. We're not convinced that the current campaign setup for Meta is correct. Meaning a lot of these guys are sitting here going, we are rinsing and repeating the same bucket. We're just dipping that ladle into the same exact crowd over and over and over. Our CPMs are going up, CPAs are going, everything is going up. And we can't quite figure out what's happening. So in talking to this one guy who was in supplements, I was like, well, it's very possible that your Pixel has been trained to go find a specific person. Shocker again, no dig on these guys.

[B]

Which was good for a long time.

[A]

That's how. Yes, it was great for the long time because we had retention based marketing tactically in the account. We don't have retention like, like mechanically anymore. So all we've been training the algorithm to do for literal decades for some of these brands is to go find retention level people to bring into the brand. So in order to break out of that. And this is the reason why, like I struggle with the volume game. I struggle a little bit with like cost caps and those type of things. Like, I understand the premise.

[B]

Yeah, they're all dumb. You're wasting your time.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

I'll say it as blonde as you want me to.

[A]

This is why I have data.

[B]

If you think, by the way, you can advertise without risk, you don't deserve to be in business.

[A]

It's so intense these days. I'm like, guys, we can talk about volume and we can talk about cost caps, that we could talk about ASC and all this stuff as much as you want, that's fine. That's one half of the equation. You guys have been telling that Pixel to go find bottom of the funnel customers, cheapest purchases for years. You cannot just throw in a new piece of creative and be like, go find me a new market and expect it to work.

[B]

Okay, well. And this is where like, these psychological tactics get really tactical. Practical is like, for years, everyone's been trying to find the cheapest customers.

[A]

Cheapest.

[B]

Oh, and I've been preaching for a couple years, find the most valuable customers. And everyone's like, you're dumb. And I'm like, all right, see you in five years.

[A]

They're also gonna have to pay more to get that customer on the interim. But the longevity of that customer is what we're going after. Especially in today's day and age where we have fragmented markets, it's incredibly important to understand tactically. In the ad account, the only thing you're doing is going to be rinsing and repeating the same customer over and over. From what the research shows at the top, it's actually more important that you just prove your. Your, like, emotional value.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So that's the entire map. That's the whole messaging map that we're looking at. At tether this year, um, emotion is gonna decide your message, Obviously. Emotion, timing is gonna decide the moment that you're trying to target in your ads in the ad account, and then framing is going to decide how much people are willing to pay for your product. If you're only looking at one of these things this year, you're not quite doing enough. And next year, 2026 is going to be all about execution. That's going to be the year where the brands that can execute on this type of stuff quickly and efficiently and creatively, those brands are going to grow. Thank you for listening to Brain Driven Brains today. Hopefully Nate and I will be back on our regular recording cadence next week. If you guys really have enjoyed or learned anything from our episodes, we would love to hear it. Let us know if you like this. Let us know what you guys want to learn, want to hear about on the podcast and also check out. I have now started branching out and taking all of our content onto its own socials. So at Brain Driven Brands, on Instagram, on TikTok, and on YouTube, please, please, please go give us a like, go give us a follow because we're trying really hard to get the brand up on its own ecosystem now, and we would appreciate it. Otherwise, thank you for listening. Have a great week. Thank you so much for joining us on the show today. Appreciate you guys listening. If you want to follow me, I'm Sarah Levenger. Anywhere you consume content, he is Nate Lagos. If you like this show and if you like this episode, Go ahead and like subscribe, share with a friend. Drop us a review when you have a minute. We would appreciate it. Otherwise, have a great week. See you next time.