The Hidden Psychology of Founder Stories (Feat. Barry Hott)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Brain Driven Brands – The Hidden Psychology of Founder Stories (Feat. Barry Hot)
Release Date: November 14, 2024

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Hidden Psychology of Founder Stories," host Sarah Levinger delves into the effectiveness of founder stories in marketing, particularly within the realm of e-commerce. Joined by guest Barry Hot, the conversation explores the psychological underpinnings that determine whether founder-centric advertising resonates with audiences or falls flat. Co-host Nate also contributes to the discussion, providing his perspectives on the evolving landscape of founder narratives in branding.

Overview of Founder Stories in Marketing

Founder stories have long been a staple in brand marketing, positioning the entrepreneur's journey as a reflection of the brand's values and mission. These narratives aim to humanize the brand, fostering a deeper connection with consumers by highlighting the origins and personal motivations behind the products or services offered.

Nate and Barry's Critique of Founder Ads

Nate opens the discussion by expressing skepticism about the current efficacy of founder ads, labeling them as "super played out and overrated" (00:32). Barry Hot concurs, emphasizing that most founder ads fail not because of the concept itself but due to poor execution. He asserts that generic introductions like "Hi, I'm Barry, the founder of [Brand]" lack the psychological engagement necessary to captivate audiences (01:09).

Both Nate and Barry argue that founder ads often miss the mark by not establishing a relatable problem-solution narrative. They highlight that merely broadcasting the founder's identity doesn't resonate with the average consumer, who may not have a personal connection or familiarity with the entrepreneur behind the brand.

Sarah's Counterpoint: The Value of Founder Videos

Contrary to Nate and Barry's views, Sarah presents an opposing perspective. She advocates for the continued use of founder videos, arguing that they infuse humanity into the brand's messaging. However, she critiques the over-reliance on scripted content, which often leads to disingenuous and unengaging narratives (07:12).

Sarah emphasizes the importance of authenticity, suggesting that spontaneous, unscripted founder stories can better convey the founder's genuine passion and commitment. She believes that showcasing the founder's human side, including imperfections and personal motivations, can create a more profound emotional connection with the audience.

The Psychology Behind Effective Founder Stories

At the heart of the discussion is the psychological impact of storytelling in marketing. Both Barry and Sarah agree that effective founder stories must evoke emotions to be memorable and persuasive. They delve into specific psychological triggers such as:

• Emotional Engagement: Utilizing emotions like empathy, sadness, or inspiration to forge a connection (13:28).

• Authenticity and Authority: Presenting the founder or spokesperson as both authentic and authoritative to build trust (03:04).

Barry expands on this by suggesting that effective storytelling isn't limited to founders. Instead, any individual within the company who embodies the brand's values and understands the customer's pain points can effectively convey the story, provided they do so with authenticity and authority (05:00).

Tactical Tips for Creating Founder Videos

Sarah offers actionable strategies for crafting compelling founder videos:

1. Elicit Emotion from the Start: Begin the narrative with an emotionally charged story to capture attention. This could involve personal struggles, significant challenges, or the founder's motivation to solve a particular problem (15:17).

2. Show Humanity: Encourage founders to share personal anecdotes, including mistakes or vulnerabilities, to appear more relatable and trustworthy (15:17).

3. Avoid Over-Scripting: Allow founders the freedom to speak naturally rather than adhering to rigid scripts, which can come across as inauthentic and forced (07:29).

4. Incorporate Relatable Characters: If the founder alone doesn't resonate with the target audience, involve other relatable figures such as family members or team members to add context and relatability (10:06).

Barry echoes these points, advocating for minimal scripting and leveraging tools like AI to formulate effective prompts that guide founders or spokespersons in delivering authentic messages (16:15).

Alternative Approaches to Founder Storytelling

The conversation also explores alternatives to traditional founder videos:

• Utilizing Other Authorities: Employing experts or key team members who can credibly speak about the product or service from an authoritative standpoint (05:00).

• AI-Driven Storytelling: Implementing AI-generated voices and characters to deliver the narrative, ensuring it remains impersonal and focused on the message rather than individual charisma (12:21).

• User-Generated Content (UGC): While Sara expresses skepticism about UGC due to often poor scripting, Barry suggests that with the right prompts, UGC can be harnessed effectively to maintain authenticity (09:15).

Notable Quotes

• Barry Hot on Emotion in Storytelling:
  "It's so important, like making like anything I do. Like everything you just said is all I'm trying to do ever is make someone feel emotion."
  — 13:28

• Sarah on Authenticity:
  "I would so much rather do it on purpose and very, very carefully so that we don't have to just randomly elicit emotions that we have no idea what we're doing with."
  — 15:17

• Barry Hot on Minimal Scripting:
  "Just go shoot it. Don't like, don't even like, pick up your phone and shoot it now."
  — 15:30

• Nate on Founder Relatability:
  "Founder ads... are pretty overrated. Pretty played out at this point."
  — 00:32

Conclusions

The episode underscores that while founder stories have the potential to humanize a brand and create emotional connections, their effectiveness hinges on authentic execution rather than mere presence. Overly scripted or generic founder ads often fail to engage, leading to audience disengagement. Instead, narratives that focus on genuine problem-solving, emotional resonance, and the authentic voice of the founder or relevant authority figure are more likely to succeed.

Key Takeaways:

• Authenticity Over Formality: Allow founders or spokespersons to express genuine emotions and share personal stories without rigid scripting.

• Emotional Engagement: Integrate emotional triggers at the outset to capture and retain audience interest.

• Relevant Authorities: Utilize team members or experts who can authentically speak to the brand's mission and values.

• Minimal Scripting: Encourage natural dialogue over scripted content to enhance relatability and trustworthiness.

By embracing these principles, brands can craft founder stories that not only narrate their origins but also resonate deeply with their target audience, fostering lasting connections and driving engagement.

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Connect with the Hosts and Guest:

• Barry Hot:

  • LinkedIn: Barry Hot
  • Twitter: @BarryHot
  • YouTube: Barry Hot YouTube
  • TikTok: @BarryHotTikTok
  • Ad Crate Co.: For performance-based creative agency services focusing on psychological ads.

• Nate:

  • Podcast: Tactical and Practical Podcast – Listen Here
  • Social Media: Nate on Twitter

• Sarah Levinger:

  • Podcast: Brain Driven Brands – Listen Here
  • Social Media: Sarah on LinkedIn

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the podcast episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't tuned in.

Transcript

[Nate]

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to my podcast, Brain Driven Brands.

[Barry Hot]

Hey, welcome back to my podcast. I'm Barry Hot. This is the hidden psychology.

[Sarah]

Let me just say for both of you, poor Scotty's now gonna have to edit this. Weirdly because neither one of you are the actual host of this podcast.

[Nate]

I'm a co host. Officially.

[Barry Hot]

I'm the captain now.

[Nate]

Sarah's host. I'm co host. Barry. Is a grateful guest.

[Sarah]

Is a lovely guest, Barry.

[Nate]

So we had an episode a couple weeks ago where I mentioned that I think founder videos are pretty. Or founder ads, like, pretty overrated. Pretty played out at this point. Barry hated that take. So what's up, Barry?

[Barry Hot]

Yeah, I did hate. Yeah, that takes. Can we share it on the screen? Should we quote, read it? Like, pull it up? I'll try and find it. But yeah, I mean, overall, like, you actually make a great point, which is that, like, founder, you. You're. You know, despite what everyone says about you, you're a very smart guy.

[Nate]

I don't like that.

[Barry Hot]

I'm just teasing. No, you're. I'm a big fan of yours. I love your content and obviously, like, I. I'm a fan of both of you, genuinely. Like, I love your content. But yeah, like, you made a great point that founder ads don't work, like, just broadly and like, your actual words were. For the record, I think it's kind of played out, not executed well most of the time. I see it. Did you say it's something more aggressive about it before that?

[Nate]

I think on the pod, I said they're super played out and overrated.

[Barry Hot]

Yeah. And 100%, you are correct.

[Sarah]

Before you guys go deep into this, though, because this is a psychology focused podcast, we need to focus on the reasons why you think it doesn't work psychologically. Not just from like a metric standpoint or from like, we're going to standpoint.

[Barry Hot]

We are going to 100%. This is about, like, this is 100% about psychology.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Barry Hot]

Because what Nate. I think when I want to speak for Nate for a second, Nate, let me know if it's this. If I'm. Generally. What you're saying is like the. Hi, I'm Barry. I'm the founder of so and so. And here's what. That's. What you're saying is not good, right?

[Nate]

Yep.

[Barry Hot]

Yeah. 100% aligned. Because, like, psychologically, I don't think it's. I don't have to say psychologically who the cares. No one cares who you are or what you do. That's not important.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Barry Hot]

What I look at as founder ads, and this is where we dis. We probably don't disagree, but this is the, the caveat I want to have is that founder ads, when they're not done as a hey, I'm so and so are great. Which is a founder who found a problem, right? A relatable problem, and then talks about that problem, talks about how every other solution that they tried failed. It wasn't good enough. And so they made a solution and here's why it works. That amazing.

[Sarah]

Can I make a decision? What you're talking about is like origin story, not founder story. It's like different.

[Barry Hot]

I like your point there. That's a good nuance. And some of that is. Is it. It's actually, to me, it's really just a problem solution story. That's all it really is. And it's a problem solution story told with the most possible authority and, and, and authenticity. So when you combine authority and authenticity, like that's the sweet spot for modern advertising, I would say any advertising, but particularly modern advertising.

[Nate]

Okay, so good news. Me and Barry agree on this a hundred percent.

[Barry Hot]

You said two cents over goodbye.

[Nate]

No, you hit on two things there that I think about for sure. One, it's founders in general are not relatable. Most people don't know founders personally. We all care about them because we know them and we work with them and we're in this little bubble. But like the average American could name Steve Jobs and Elon and that's it. It's like the founders they're aware of. I think the problem solution angle is the only time it works because I think those founders are a true representation of their customer base.

[Barry Hot]

Yes.

[Nate]

And that's when it works. Because it's relatable. It's connected to the problem they haven't solved. Sarah, go thank you to your podcast.

[Barry Hot]

I'll give you permission to speak.

[Sarah]

This is the reason why I love bringing like talking to people on my show because I can't get a word in edgewise, which is weird for Sarah. Usually I'm the only one talking. Anyways, follow up question to this because I actually just talked to a brand and a SaaS company that runs a marketing tool that does strictly nurture and sequences based on founder stories and are seeing massively good results with this particular tool, which oddly enough is a pop up. Do you think founder videos or founder stories work elsewhere or they just shouldn't be used at all?

[Barry Hot]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I want to add, it doesn't really have to be a founder story, it just has to. Because it's not. There's like two. Nate's exact point. It's not about the founder, it's not about that. It's about. It's about authenticity and authority on it. So it actually doesn't even have to be a founder. It can be that like someone in the company who just gets it. Like I've seen, like if it's a design product, like the head designer, you know, is a good person to have talk about it. If it's a, I don't know, like there's some instances where like the CMO or head of growth, like, if they can just talk about it compellingly, passionately, they know the product well, they know the problem well, they know the audience well. Then they can just speak in an authentic, real way with authority about the problem. The same thing goes, by the way, if you have like a healthcare thing and you bring in a doctor, right, to talk about a problem, you can. They're bringing in their authority and authenticity without having to be the founder. But they have that, you know, ability to talk about it comfortably and confidently. So that's, I think, what works.

[Nate]

We see that in original grain where like we talk about each of us and the customer when it applies to certain product categories of ours. So like one of our founders is a Marine Corps veteran. We have the line of watches inlaid with the military ammo crate wood. We don't talk about those watches without mentioning the fact that he's our founder, he created this, tell his story. We don't really talk about our whiskey watches a ton from the perspective of someone besides that isn't Whiskey Nate isn't the marketing guy. Nate that drinks too much and likes to have a good time and like.

[Barry Hot]

Sorry, say that, say more about that. What do you advertise from like Whiskey Nate, that perspective?

[Nate]

Yep. Okay. So we do. It happens most in email and sms. Starting to get into ad content a little bit, starting to get into social a bit. And then we talk about the other founder when it comes to like high end mechanical watch movements and everything because like that's more his personality. So like each of those I think hits the points of like relatable and authority on the subject matter we're talking about.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I don't know that I agree with either of you. Honestly.

[Barry Hot]

Love it.

[Nate]

Good.

[Sarah]

Sarah's gonna have like an opposite take. I personally actually really love founder videos because they're the only piece of the business that has any sort of humanity inside it. I think the People writing the scripts for founder videos need to do better. Yeah, scripts for founder videos suck because.

[Barry Hot]

Scripts in general suck.

[Sarah]

Yeah, a hundred percent. The scripts for founder videos usually follow that thread of like, hi, I'm the founder of so and so and I just want to tell you about what I did today and how you should buy my product. And it's, it comes across as like somebody frickin wrote that for you and it's terrible. I have seen some off the cuff ones though. And to Nate's point, he's not a founder, but he has founder energy. This is why I say there's a difference between founder story, founder. Like, hey, I'm a marketer, but I'm also a founder. And also origin stories which could be done by anybody. Nate actually does a lot of origin stories inside marketer Nate's personality type. And they've done a ton of studies on the fact that having some sort of like an entity, a mascot if you will, at the top of a brand does way more for the brand itself than any sort of like growth hacky stuff that you could possibly do. So my like base to this, I think we should keep founder videos, but I'm not entirely sure that you should script what the founder should say.

[Barry Hot]

Prompt. Yeah. So, okay, great, you GT up prompt them. Right? That's what you need is a good prompt. And it's the same by the way, for customers like and for, I mean you could argue for like creators or UGC too, but as I believe you've talked on this podcast before, that UGC kind of sucks. I think that's because the scripts suck, because the prompts suck, because the like creators don't know what they're, they're doing. I'd rather prompt, give a really good prompt, a really good question to a founder. Give a really good question to a customer and then get extract, make them answer the question that I need them to say in an ad. And that's the key. Now what I, from what I see working well is a lot of that, that storytelling, that authenticity, that realness.

[Sarah]

How, how do you get people to prompt? Well, because I know that the next question I'm going to get off of this podcast is like, well Sarah, we don't script the founder, then he's not going to know what to say and we have to, we have to give him some sort of direction. So what, what questions are we supposed to ask him to get a performance video out of him?

[Nate]

I think first you gotta, you gotta understand if your founder is the right.

[Sarah]

Guy or not because to be on camera. Is that what you mean?

[Nate]

Yep. Cause I could think of a bunch of companies where it doesn't make sense for the founder to be the guy. Like Ash from AVI is not his target demo. Right. And nothing against. Ash has started a great company. It's awesome. But I would guess from the outside, a lot of his customers are women. Right. I'm assuming a lot here.

[Sarah]

What if you had Ash and his mom in the founder video?

[Nate]

That now works.

[Sarah]

Context. Okay, so this goes down to the psychological context. You have to provide some sort of a reason for that person to be on video. Because you're right. Ash by himself would have just been weird. Be like, I make stuff for women going through. Well, like menopause.

[Barry Hot]

I would argue, at the very least, it's still worth Ashley doing the exercise. Right.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Barry Hot]

Because it still will extract. You can extract a lot from that that you can then reuse in other things. Right. The why he did it is still. Still exists and is still there. Unless the why is, well, I wanted to make a lot of money. That's not a good why to put in an ad.

[Nate]

No. But you can connect it to a story with his mom or sister or whatever.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Like, then I think it becomes super relatable. And you can be like, I wanted to solve this and like, you know, whatever help women. Like, that's fantastic. But I would start with making sure your founder is the right character to be in there. And then from there, I think you're really, like. I think you can only screw it up if you over script it and over prompt it. Because if he's the right guy or the right gal, just put him on camera a bunch.

[Barry Hot]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And just let them.

[Sarah]

That's hard to find, though.

[Nate]

Live their lives, talk about it.

[Sarah]

You don't think so?

[Nate]

I think so, no.

[Barry Hot]

They're. They're all the time, like, founders are, like, practicing their pitch for, like, VCs. Like, maybe the smaller. Like, maybe not just VCs, like potential acquirers, whatever it is. Like, yeah, yeah. They're smaller businesses and that's not, you know, they're not wanted. They don't want to do that. Maybe that's not the right person. Nate's point. But, like, there's probably someone in your org who can speak about it.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Barry Hot]

You could, like, take that script and not do it from the perspective of a founder, but the perspective of an authority and then have. Honestly have an AI read that script. I know that because I have done that for a. A women's vaginal. Supplement brand. I have voiced. I have voiced an ad and it works well. Had. Yes. I have had AI crazy like, so AI voice change to female and have an AI character speaking it. Right. So it's not from.

[Sarah]

Okay.

[Barry Hot]

I can't. I can't say. I'm not saying I use the product. I'm not saying I experience this problem.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Barry Hot]

I'm speaking. I'm basically mansplaining a problem.

[Sarah]

Wow.

[Barry Hot]

Via a. An AI female character or multiple AI female characters.

[Nate]

So Barry has to talk for women. Anything else? Thanks so much for coming on, man. It's great.

[Barry Hot]

Am I canceled?

[Sarah]

God in heaven. Okay, so for I. From a. Sarah's psychological standpoint, there's a few things in founder videos if you're going to do it. Because we might as well do tactical because we only have a few minutes left. Tactically, if you're going to make founder videos, in my experience, one of the best ways to do it is to lead off with something that's going to build any sort of oxytocin, serotonin. So you got to do very emotional story up front. Like get some emotion going because that's going to keep. Fear is a good one. Disgust is another really good one. Sadness, if you can. Oh, if you can elicit like some sort of empathetic grief. That's very, very catching. For anybody who understands the founder story well enough or can relate to it well enough that it will work for their ad as well. Right. So it will bring in the customer.

[Barry Hot]

But for America, I just have to echo that. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I have to echo what you just said. Like, it's so important, like making like anything I do. Like everything you just said is all I'm trying to do ever is make someone feel emotion.

[Sarah]

Well, it's tough because you don't want to. You don't want to. You don't want to use emotion incorrectly. Like, this is the reason everybody keeps asking me, like, Sarah, isn't what you're doing manipulation. And I'm like, well, the marketers are doing it on accident. I would so much rather do it on purpose and very, very carefully so that we don't have to just randomly elicit emotions that we have no idea what we're doing with exterior to this. Make sure that you're eliciting some sort of emotion out the gate. For founder videos in particular, it doesn't have to be for every video do you do. But those are such deep core to the brand. Elicit some emotion up front secondary to the emotion that you're doing up front, I want you to try and create these dips and valleys. So you still need to talk about product, you still need to talk about benefit, what the actual, like, solve, solution is. But then go into another piece of the story where the founder is talking about specifically. This is the reason why I did this and this is why it's so important to me. Like, I know that I'm just a founder of a company and like, we have to make money, I get it. But also, like, we're trying to make a difference in the world specifically because people struggle with xyz. And that's more important to me than it is just to like make a big business. So try and wrap it back around into like humanity a little bit and then end with some sort of a human to human interaction. The more. This is really weird, but they've done studies on this too. The more human you can make somebody seem, meaning if they can call out mistakes, mistakes that they've made or flaws that they have, the more relatable they will seem and the better people will respond to them. So try not to make your founders seem infallible. Everybody does this and it drives me crazy because they're human and people just want to see the humanity. They just want to see it.

[Barry Hot]

And that's why I say so much, like, just go shoot it. Don't like, don't even like, pick up your phone and shoot it now. Like, don't wait for the perfect setting, don't wait for the perfect lighting, don't wait for like someone to be there, like feeding you, whatever, just go do it.

[Sarah]

Ugly ads. Just make it ugly. Just make it ugly.

[Barry Hot]

Just make it and then run it.

[Sarah]

Yes, I would.

[Barry Hot]

Barrett, I have to touch on something you said a second ago about like, how do you do it? How do you prompt it, literally? First of all, I hope someday I'll do something where I, like, sell my prompts, whatever. But like, really, I'll make that money. But like, really, all you need to do is go into chat GPT and say, yeah, here's what I want to get out of out of these questions. What are the best ways to prompt it? And you could literally take this recording of this podcast clip, the transcript from what you just said, all the psychological things, give that to ChatGPT and say, I want to elicit this from this founder, from this customer.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Barry Hot]

What questions should I prompt them with?

[Sarah]

Yeah, yeah, that's smart. Don't think about if you don't have to just have chat, do It. Because it's. Chat is way quicker than having to think of all these things. Okay, we can debate this all day long, but we're running out of time. So, Barry, where could people find you if they want to learn more about creating ugly founder ads and anything?

[Barry Hot]

Don't find me. Don't even find me. I don't care.

[Sarah]

Don't come over to me.

[Barry Hot]

Please don't look for me. Just. Just find my name. Barry hot on Google 2 teeth. If you. I bet if you google Barry Hot with one T, you'll still find me. Not. It's pretty unique name, so I have the benefit of just saying Google me. LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, inst. Don't really. I'm not really on Instagram right now.

[Sarah]

Don't follow him on Instagram.

[Nate]

Yeah, yeah.

[Barry Hot]

I. I own a piece of. I own a piece of Ad Crate. Ad Crate. Co. If you're looking for a performance creative agency where we work on some psychological based ads, that's what. Yes.

[Sarah]

Bear, you're lovely. Thank you for coming on the show. Nate, where can people find you?

[Nate]

Tactical and practical podcast? It's better than this one.

[Sarah]

Oh, come on. Every single time, man. Every time.

[Barry Hot]

I don't even know that. I'm not joking. I'm not trying to give you. I don't. I don't know that podcast. I need to go check it out.

[Sarah]

Yeah, this is actually, actually better than mine though. Mostly because they have two five star reviews and I only have one.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And I don't have any sponsors. I don't know. Okay, I'm doing the best I can here, Barry.

[Nate]

Thanks for coming on, dude. This is fun.

[Barry Hot]

Thank you for letting me disagree with you, but also really just agree with you.

[Nate]

Yeah, no, it's like any hot take on Twitter. You talk about it for more than 30 seconds and you're like, oh, we. We agree.

[Sarah]

Oh, just kidding. We agree. Great show, everybody.

[Nate]

The Brain Driven Brands podcast is part.

[Barry Hot]

Of the Learn and Laugh series on.

[Nate]

The Quick Fire podcast network.