B (2:34)

I think you can teach someone to be adequate. Oh, I don't think you can teach someone to be good or definitely not excellent at it.

A (2:45)

What is your thought process behind this? And I'm gonna take notes. I'm not even kidding. I'm gonna sit here and write this down. Cause I'm like, this is fascinating. Why? So you're saying you can go from beginner to intermediate?

B (2:53)

Yeah.

A (2:53)

But it's harder to go from intermediate to expert.

B (2:55)

I think you need to have the brain for it.

A (2:58)

Oh, okay. So you're talking about talent, basically.

B (3:01)

Yeah, yeah. Like I think. And I don't even want to call it talent because I think people's brains are literally built differently. Some people are very good at.

A (3:08)

Okay.

B (3:08)

Understanding math and numbers. Some people are very logical. Some people are very creative. So I think anyone can get better at it.

A (3:18)

Okay.

B (3:19)

I think it's pushing a boulder uphill for some of you trying to get great at it if you are not naturally built that way.

A (3:27)

Okay, so let's break this down a little bit because now I'm just like, I'm interested to hear Nate Legos take on what's the difference between a beginner and intermediate? And at an expert level, creative strategist.

B (3:38)

Oh, okay.

A (3:39)

What's the differences between. So let's start with beginner. What does a beginner know or what should they know?

B (3:44)

I should say, what should they know?

A (3:47)

What should they know to be a beginner level? Like you can get the job done. Creative strategists. And I give you props if you need, but like, I think it's easier

B (3:58)

to start with expert.

A (3:59)

Okay, let's start with that then. Okay. What is an expert?

B (4:02)

An expert needs to have like a deep, deep understanding of human psychology and behavior. They need to be super empathetic, I think.

A (4:12)

Oh, okay. That's a soft skill. I like that one.

B (4:14)

Yeah. Which is why I think like some people are going to have this or they're not going to have this. And like it's kind of on you interest. I think they need to be really self aware.

A (4:25)

Okay.

B (4:26)

Because I think when you better understand like your own personal consumer behavior, it's much easier to communicate that to prospects.

A (4:35)

I mean, I would agree. Yeah. There's a lot of communication in this industry just between employers and employees as well. So like having communication skills, I write that one down. Okay.

B (4:46)

And then like the, the most, the most abstract thing that like I have tried to explain to people, I have shown people countless examples and some people still can't grasp it. They don't know how to use words to make people feel something. Oh, and I think great creative strategist needs to have that skill. They need to be influential with the words.

A (5:15)

Well, I like that word. Okay. Influential.

B (5:17)

They need to be able to write words so that you don't think the same after you've read them.

A (5:23)

So they, they need to have the ability to move people basically. Okay, that's a hard one to teach. Okay. Yeah, I mean I love all of these.

B (5:31)

Okay, so then if we go, if we go back to the intermediate one. Okay, I think it's all of that minus that last skill.

A (5:41)

The intermediates need everything except for the ability or they have everything except for the ability to move people.

B (5:48)

Yeah, I think so.

A (5:49)

That's a. Oh, okay. Because like I think so you're intermediate

B (5:53)

because like I think that's the delta between good and great.

A (5:57)

Okay, let's keep going with this though because now we're listing just soft skills. We can go back to the technical skills in a second. So your intermediate, your expert person needs to be an expert in psychology, have a lot of empathy, be self aware, have communication skills, have an ability to, to create influence for the brand and the ability to move people. Yep, that's an intense level.

B (6:18)

That's what I think it takes to be creative.

A (6:20)

But you also think that the intermediate needs all of those skills.

B (6:23)

Needs a lot of them.

A (6:25)

Interesting. I don't know that I would agree for intermediates. For intermediates I think you need more business knowledge. Business and explain that. So what the biggest difference I see between an intermediate and an expert level, the expert, I think you're spot on. Honestly, the expert level, creative strategists are all about empathy, self awareness, communication skills and really just understanding like how humans work. The intermediates don't have enough knowledge on markets, economics to really just like unit economics within a business. Interestingly enough, all the intermediate stuff that I'm noticing, like experts need more interior skill, intermediates need more exterior skill, beginners need more text tactical skill. You need to know how to build an ad, how to write a headline, how to like edit things. Well, this is helpful.

B (7:16)

I've had a really hard time like in the past sometimes with bosses, sometimes with co workers of like trying to explain to them the difference of like specifically copy that sounds cool.

A (7:29)

Yes.

B (7:30)

Versus copy. That like actually moves people. And I don't know how you teach that part.

A (7:36)

Well, because it's. I hate this word because now AI is using it everywhere. Taste. Right. Taste comes. Comes down to basically, like my, my personality can see things that are just higher quality than everybody else can see. That's technically what you're describing. The weird part is though, I would agree with you that a lot of that comes down to talent. Like.

B (7:56)

Yeah.

A (7:57)

Is your brain just well suited for taste? So for instance, I have a friend who just like, she dresses so nice all the time. Like, everything goes. Every single thing she wears is just fantastic. It's not high end. It's not like she's buying like Louis Vuitton or whatever.

B (8:10)

Just nice.

A (8:12)

Yeah. Like she just looks good all the time. I can't figure this out for myself because I don't have clothing. Taste.

B (8:18)

Yeah.

A (8:18)

Sarah chooses stuff that's like. This is kind of comfy.

B (8:21)

Yeah. I mean, you've seen what I wear. Jeans.

A (8:26)

So my second question to you. So we've. We've kind of like set down a baseline that your experts need psychological knowledge, your intermediates need business and growth knowledge, and your beginners need basically like tactical knowledge.

B (8:43)

Yeah.

A (8:43)

How do you go about figuring out where someone is? Like, if you're hiring a creative strategist this week and you've got like 40 candidates on your docket, how can you tell who's in which box? Like which box? Freak. Come on, tell me how this.

B (9:01)

I. I posted a role a while ago for a copywriter, which I think for our purposes today is essentially a creative strategist. And I had a really hard time vetting those candidates because there was. We had them do a test assignment and like, there was definitely copy that I liked better than others. And there was stuff that like, I thought was good, but like, that's not statistically significant. And I ended up actually not hiring for the role because I decided, like, I actually don't want to even take my hand off that part of the business right now.

A (9:39)

You gotta, you gotta make decisions based upon what's the biggest list.

B (9:42)

Yeah, it's really hard. If we're talking about hiring, I would hire for. I always like to hire for attitude and soft skills.

A (9:52)

So. Okay, so we've now figured out our. Our experts, our intermediates, our beginners, what kind of like soft skills and tactical skills. That kind of need. We didn't go too deep on the tactical side, but we might have to do a different episode for that one because I feel like that one could go on forever. We kind of understand when you're looking for somebody in this range, I kind of like the way that you do it. Like looking for their ability to communicate, work ethic, like who they are. Just personality wise. I have a hard time understanding how am I supposed to teach this to people. People want to learn and then who is most capable of learning it. I think the whole industry is struggling with it.

B (10:28)

This reminds me of every conversation I have with Connor Rolane from Hexclad. Every time I'm telling him about a new like, tactic or a new thing we're doing, his first question is to me is like, great. How are you going to operationalize that? How are you going to like build the machine to do that more often and better and more consistently? And I'm like, oh damn, you're a better CMO than me. Like, like, I need to think like that more often. But I think if you're a creative strategist out there, you need to be thinking of like, hey, how do you maximize your impact from. For whatever you do? Because, like, I don't think you can just come in and Write ads for 40 hours a week anymore. I think you need to build a machine that probably involves you and influencers and other creators and multiple channels to make sure that the creative work you do is getting amplified and distributed across the organization. Like, it needs to be well.

A (11:32)

And this is key because I, I've seen a couple internals of like a few training, like cohorts, right? Different, like opportunities for people to go and actually get training on this. And the ones that do the best, honestly, are the ones where you get to practice that skill, not where you just learn what it is. Right? So the, the, the best entities I've ever seen are people who are training their team by helping them practice every single day. And that's kind of the reason why, like, the school that I run does so well. Shameless plug. It does so well. Mostly because every single week I'm coming in and they ask questions about things that I'm seeing or like topics that we're training on that are super nuanced, right? And I think this is what we talked about a couple episodes ago, where it was like the apprenticeship model and D2C is dying. That's why we can't get good, quote, unquote, greatest strategies. It's not that these people aren't good at it. I think it's more they haven't had enough practice and they have no one to give Them feedback.

B (12:25)

And I just did an episode on my podcast, Little Plug. If you're gonna plug your school twice in your book, I'm gonna plug Tactical and practical. I did an episode where I talked about, like, how I desire to hire agencies or in house and I heavily favor building in house teams because even if there's a gap in expertise, even if, like this agency today is way more experienced and better at this skill that I'm hiring for than this candidate over here, this candidate, after six months on the job, 40 hours a week, not focused on anything else, what they lack in like, you know, industry or, or skill experience, it will be more than made up for with how familiar they get with our brand, how plugged in they get to our processes. So to me, like, yeah, I'm with you 100%. We're like, I mean, look at how not good of a copywriter I was when I started at og, right? Like, I was good at selling the last thing I sold that was also made out of wood, but it didn't translate over immediately. Yeah, it took me a year ish to figure it out at og and then I just wrote banger after banger for three years string here at Adapt. I think I shortened that window to like a couple months before I was writing banger after banger after banger. So I'm getting better. But yeah, I like the experience at the brand matters so much. And this is why, like, I only take on one copywriting client a month, another plug. It's cause like, I, I, I couldn't go deep enough on each one to really be good at it, which I

A (14:09)

think is key in the entire industry. And this is the reason why that like, agency versus in house team conversation, which is we're not going to get into that on this podcast, but that conversation is the reason why it's so difficult is what's better, like width or depth in your marketing skill. I tend to go for depth just because I like the psychology side of it and I'm like, weird like that. But in general, for the creative strategists who are listening to this episode, what do you suggest?

B (14:33)

Well, so this is where I think, like an intermediate can compete with an expert if the expert isn't as deep in the brand.

A (14:41)

Oh yeah, right. Like, yeah, I would agree with that.

B (14:44)

There are better copy writers than me for sure. There's like four or five of them at least.

A (14:50)

But only four. Only five.

B (14:54)

It's an estimate. It's an estimate. Yeah. But if we both are writing ads for Adapt next Week. I'm gonna do better in that first round.

A (15:05)

So true. So true.

B (15:06)

And they'll beat me by the fourth round.

A (15:08)

Yep.

B (15:09)

But to me, like, that's. That's how I've always built teams because I. I've never had the budget to go higher. A creative strategist for a quarter million bucks.

A (15:18)

Yeah.

B (15:19)

But I've hired 1 for 160 who learns the brand and gets really, really good. And a year into it, that person is, like, better at it than anyone I could, you know, pluck off the street.

A (15:31)

All right, so what's your recommendation then for anybody that's looking to, like, upgrade their skills? Because we've got thousands of people coming into the industry now. Motion just did their giant, like, training event, their boot camp, had 40,000 people sign up to learn how to be a creative strategist.

B (15:44)

Yeah. I think the most important thing is get your reps in. In an environment where you can understand the impact it has.

A (15:53)

So, like, that's good advice.

B (15:54)

Don't just go make a bunch of ads for people. You need to be able to start to get feedback.

A (16:01)

Yeah.

B (16:02)

From how your content is performing. Because making a thousand ads is not the skill. The skill is making a thousand ads and. And understanding why 17 of them did better than the rest.

A (16:12)

Yes.

B (16:13)

That's. That's the skill you need to unlock.

A (16:16)

Oh, so good. Oh, my God. Okay, anything else you want to add

B (16:21)

that was good for how low energy we started? This episode turned out to be a good one.

A (16:26)

I bring good topics. When I prep, I bring topics. This was also literally just like, Nate, give me your insider information so I can go turn it into a product for myself.

B (16:35)

Yeah, yeah. Here's a free info product for you. Thanks so much for listening to Brain driven brand. Sign up for Sarah's school if you want to get better at creative strategy. And I don't have anything to sell

A (16:48)

you, so not yet.

B (16:50)

Go buy hats@shootingdoubles.com if you like whiskey.

A (16:54)

There you go. Thank you so much for joining us on the show today. Appreciate you guys listening. If you want to follow me, I'm at Sarah Lovinger. Anywhere you consume content. He is at Nate Lagos. If you like this show and if you like this episode, go ahead and like, subscribe. Share with a friend. Drop us a review when you have a minute. We would appreciate it. Otherwise, have a great week. We'll see you next time.