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Brain Driven Brands
What Really Matters When Building a Creative Team (Feat. Joanna Wallace)
00:41:48
In this episode of Brain Driven Brands, Sarah sits down with an expert to talk about creative strategy, why most people are bad at using humor in ads, and why the “volume” conversation might be doing more harm than good. Joanna Wallace from...
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Transcript146 lines
- [00:00]
Joanna Wallace
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Sarah Levenger
Wallace. Thank you for joining me today. Oh, my gosh. Your last episode is one of our most popular episodes, by the way. Like, oh, my God, I'm 20 people. People love you on the Internet. They're like, joanna, we want more Joanna.
- [00:20]
Joanna Wallace
Oh, wow. No one's ever said that, so thank you, Internet.
- [00:23]
Sarah Levenger
I just said it. I said it. It came from me. Brain Dreams Brands. I'm Sarah Levenger. This is Joanna Wallace. Today we are gonna have a girl chat. I don't know what that means. I've heard that term, and I still don't quite understand it, but we're gonna. We're gonna attempt it today. Some sort of a girl chat.
- [00:39]
Joanna Wallace
We're not girl bosses. We're bosses.
- [00:41]
Sarah Levenger
So true. Am I a boss? Can you. I mean, technically, you have employees. Yes. Well, technically, they're contractors. I try really hard not to think of myself as a boss, which I think is a detriment to me, because then I have a hard time, like, telling people what to do, and they're sitting here like, I agree. I agree with the sentiment 100%. I think height has a lot to do with it, because if I put boots on, I go instantly into, like, boss. Boss.
- [01:05]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah. So basically, your team needs to worry about being fired. If you show up in, like, four. That's when truth. Watch out.
- [01:12]
Sarah Levenger
Which would be so funny because my team works remotely, so they can't see my feet. Almost like, no one is just like.
- [01:18]
Joanna Wallace
Stick your leg up. Like, guys, we're getting serious today.
- [01:20]
Sarah Levenger
Get up there, be like, hey, watch out. I'm in a mood today. Okay. All right, I digress. I love these conversations with you because we just get wild. All right, topic of conversation, though. There's two different routes we could take, because I feel like you have a lot of experience in the industry. You've got tons of creative strategy experience, and that was one of the things I think your episode was popular because. And go find that people. If you haven't listened to it, go look for it on YouTube. The last one we talked about was making a creative team, building teams that actually get it. And when I say get it, I mean, like, they understand how to make interesting ads that sell and don't just.
- [01:55]
Joanna Wallace
Follow those generic formulas so that every brand has the same ad, just a different product. And then it's like, first of all, I've seen it before. Second of all, if you're in the same industry, you're pushing all the brands together. I don't know what product. I don't know what brand you are. I just know it's a. It's a pan or it's a. It's a, you know, drink.
- [02:13]
Sarah Levenger
Yes. I feel this in my soul. Same ad, different product. This is why I keep telling people. One of the other best, like, performing podcasts I ever had was one that was titled the ADA framework is why your ads don't work. And I got so much hate for it. People were like, how dare you? You can't say that. Direct response is bad. And I was like, I just did. Like, okay, thank you, Internet. But also, this is the reason why, because if everybody's using the ADA framework, if everybody's using the same ad structure and just changing the product, I'm like, that's not creative. And it's also, like, not really doing you a service. That's an expensive way to test.
- [02:48]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah. Is it. Is it bad that, like, there's so many people, maybe that my brain just doesn't work like this. I'm not like, a. As mentally organized as I think a lot of people are. And I think that people who come to creative from more media buying analytical sides have these, like, formulas and these flowcharts and like, CTR is down. Do this, this or this.
- [03:08]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Decision trees for all the other day.
- [03:14]
Joanna Wallace
And I was just like, my brain doesn't work like that. And honestly, it would take all the fun out of the job. I like to totally.
- [03:21]
Sarah Levenger
What?
- [03:21]
Joanna Wallace
It's all in there.
- [03:23]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah.
- [03:23]
Joanna Wallace
I can use it, but let. Let it just naturally. Let my solutions naturally pop up because it'll be more creative than just being like, I must fix this.
- [03:32]
Sarah Levenger
Yes. Oh, a hundred percent. And I also feel like this is something that somebody called it out on Twitter the other day. He was saying performance marketing really did draw a whole lot of data brain, like left brain people. And he was like, the sucky part is, is like, left brain people are not as well suited to being creative because he's like, we like our structure. We like things to be in a specific bucket every single time. And so it kind of caused a little bit of stagnation of the industry because data driven brains are not quite as adept. Not that they can't be creative, but, like, they prefer numbers and structure, whereas creative minds are like, let me be as free as a bird. But I want it to be weird. Yeah, you got to have both.
- [04:12]
Joanna Wallace
I describe it as like, I'm 2/3 creative, one third strategy.
- [04:16]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah.
- [04:17]
Joanna Wallace
Partner with third strategy, 1/3 creative. I love thirds for some reason. But, yeah, you got to have somebody who's just the natural creative and then somebody who. More of a natural numbers person and then me in the middle. Yes, that's where you get the gold. But otherwise you just turn into formulaic robots.
- [04:36]
Sarah Levenger
Well, one of the things that I've noticed, especially with the teams that I work with on the agency side or big brand side that have teams of 10 or more, is it's difficult to tell what brain somebody has unless they're doing the work for a minute. So I want to get your take on this. How do you find people on both sides of the fence and make sure that they can cohesively work together? Like, I don't know how. I'm like, this is the toughest part about the industry right now is how do you know who's who and what skills they have?
- [05:04]
Joanna Wallace
I know. And everyone says they're a creative strategist and yes, everybody. And then there's, and then there's like Chat GPT creative strategists, where like you figured out how to nail that interview or like update your LinkedIn.
- [05:14]
Sarah Levenger
Oh, so true.
- [05:16]
Joanna Wallace
As much as I do love him, my friend named him Frank, which is really funny. Chat.
- [05:20]
Sarah Levenger
They named Chat Frank boyfriend.
- [05:23]
Joanna Wallace
And the other one who's like, I asked Frank.
- [05:26]
Sarah Levenger
That's so funny.
- [05:27]
Joanna Wallace
We're all getting very weird.
- [05:28]
Sarah Levenger
Getting weird out here.
- [05:30]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, you gotta really just look for people with different backgrounds. Like I think I said, like on the last podcast. Like, I love people with a comedy background. I think they think really quick on their feet, they understand narrative. And I think I like people with an editor background. I think they come at it. They come at the back end of the creative. They have more of the visual, the storytelling from the. They have to take what you gave them and make something of it. And so they're very good at. Then if they switch over to be the creative strategist and they're the one giving it to an editor, they're very, very, very good at giving the editor what they actually need and picturing that final product. I think, yeah, I like working with, you know, just a. What you, what's your background? Are you more of a numbers person? Great. Then I have to fill the rest of my team out with people who are more smart, artistic, or more creative. You just can't over index on one type and you can't be a buyer. You're creative strategist, which I feel like so many people. Oh my gosh. They're like, well, you, you can see the data so you know what you need. So then you can make what you need. And it's like, okay, no, they know what you need, but then you need to partner with somebody who like lives and breathes creative to actually action it. Otherwise you're getting those robotic, you know, not, not as good as they can be. I mean, collaboration and creativity is the key. You know, creativity in a vacuum. Even if you're amazing, you can get great work, but you're not going to get incredible work.
- [06:54]
Sarah Levenger
Yes, I would agree 100%.
- [06:56]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah.
- [06:56]
Sarah Levenger
Especially because your media buyer can often give you numbers that he or she is seeing that we can inject straight into an ad that I would never think to add because, like, I'm a creative, so I want to be like crazy with all of the hooks and I want to get like weird objects in here and I want to go outside and do all kinds of crazy things. But some of the best performing ads I've ever seen came from a media buyer who said, oh, did you know that like 80% of our customers, they're clicking on this ad, say that they love our product or whatever it is. And I'm like, oh, dang, we could totally use that stat. 80% of our customers say this. I. And we need that. Both, the, both brains, I think, I.
- [07:31]
Joanna Wallace
Think are such a good jumping off point for you, such a good inspiration. And then also I think they come in at the beginning and the end where then if you get a little bit too off track, they're like, wait, actually, you know, correct slightly. And in the end, I think the media buyer is very, very helpful. And then in the middle, let the creative just go whack.
- [07:50]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah, I agree. Well, and I love your call out about backgrounds in particular because a lot, a lot of people in this industry have a background in media buying and I have a background in graphic design or I have a background in copywriting. We have a background in marketing. But I think you're alluding to something different background wise. And specifically when you said, like, you need to find a comedy person, like somebody who has a background in something that forced them to be funny that is so beneficial to any brand. Mostly because you can't find funny people these days. They're really hard.
- [08:21]
Joanna Wallace
It's just not. You can finesse it, but you either are or you aren't. It's the same thing with creativity. You can finesse it, you can nurture it, you can grow it, but like, if you don't have a seed, you know, you can water your dirt, but.
- [08:35]
Sarah Levenger
Nothing'S coming out of the dirt.
- [08:37]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah.
- [08:38]
Sarah Levenger
So where do you Usually source people from. I know this is getting back into the conversation of, like, how.
- [08:42]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, I know, right.
- [08:43]
Sarah Levenger
But honestly, force people from.
- [08:46]
Joanna Wallace
It's a lot of, you know, coming. Coming out of tube science especially. I feel like it was grad school and then the graduating class kind of all spread out. And so we all have gone to, like, in house at different brands or different agencies. And then there's been all these other tube science people who I haven't actually overlapped with, but somebody else I trust has overlapped with. And so I've made overlapped. And so I've made all these connections through essentially friends. And I've worked with them, I trust them, I know their standards. And then they recommend somebody else and they recommend somebody else. And so I've really grown this network of people who I haven't honestly met in person, but I trust them implicitly.
- [09:30]
Sarah Levenger
And that's because your network has vetted them. So.
- [09:33]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, yeah. And then. And it grows and grows and grows and grows. And then honestly, sometimes I'll just meet people on LinkedIn and I'll just, you know, comment on their post or will end up having a conversation. And you can just tell if somebody has, has it and agrees with you and like is on their game and then you keep in touch.
- [09:51]
Sarah Levenger
It's not hard, people. I just, like, once I trust you.
- [09:56]
Joanna Wallace
Once you impress me and I trust you, like, you're in my little black book and, like, you will work with me again one day. I will.
- [10:02]
Sarah Levenger
You don't have a choice. It's coming at you. I love this. Okay, so. And your experience, we're going to shift a little bit different from, like, creative strategy and building creative team. I want to talk about, like, the ads themselves, because some of the best ads I've ever seen from you guys or from like, the projects that you worked in in the past are the ones that use this humor. So they use the skillset that you guys have. One of the things that's interesting, though, is I want to see what your take on testing is, because you and I have, like, talked a little bit about ads, testing, structure, methodology, because I think that has a huge impact on obviously the viability of the account and how much you grow. But it also says a lot about the team health, like the style of methodology use says a lot about the health of your team, mental health of your team.
- [10:47]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, I feel like, you know, I've been. There's definitely strategists or pods at different agencies where you can see the ones that are really pushing the Testing and really have thoughtfulness and excitement behind the testing. And you can see ones that are following the flowchart and they're just testing headlines and lowest list effective. And then, honestly, what you usually end up seeing with people who take kind of the lazy route of testing is that their ads lose the narrative. They lose the. They become disconnected. So they'll, like, test all these openers, but then they won't bother to look at the on ramp and see how they have to rearrange the original ad. So if my opener is all about this will make you feel more attractive. And then I go into durability.
- [11:38]
Sarah Levenger
Yes.
- [11:38]
Joanna Wallace
That's not. If you pose something, you have to then answer it. You have to respond to you. And that drives me crazy. And so that's a lot of, like, notes that I've given in the past of just sort of like, I get that you're doing an opener test, but you have to. You're. You can't just bang it out to then think about, what is this new thing that I've created? How is it different from the original? And what new needs does it have in order to continue to work? If somebody is a young, new strategist, that is the number one tell is if somebody doesn't understand that testing openers also means rearranging the on ramp. Yes.
- [12:16]
Sarah Levenger
The back. Oh, I would agree with this 100%. And I see this in a lot of really big brands these days is it's almost like their ads are disassociating.
- [12:25]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah.
- [12:25]
Sarah Levenger
You know, like how you zone out a little bit sometimes you kind of just disassociate from life. Your ads seem to do the same thing. It's like, did you not see how you were talking about topic A and then you just jumped to talk it, like, B, C, D, E, like, because.
- [12:38]
Joanna Wallace
They'Re so in it. So. So there's two reasons I think this happens. One is they're too close to it, so their mind glazes over. It makes sense to them because they've seen it so many times and they know the value. Props. And it all just. They're not coming at it with, like, not ignorant eyes, but, like, they're not coming at it from fresh eyes. The other thing is that people get really scared about losing the structure that worked.
- [13:02]
Sarah Levenger
So, yeah, I see this too. It's a fear.
- [13:05]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah. So there's the balance of, like, this worked. I don't want to mess with it, but at the same time, this isn't going to pivot unless you massage it. And change it enough that it now actually is a solid test in another direction. Instead of just like slapping, slapping a new headline on and being like, well, the rest of it works. So we don't want to touch it.
- [13:26]
Sarah Levenger
It's like, don't touch it.
- [13:27]
Joanna Wallace
Yes, don't want to touch it. Then change the opener to be something on the same, on the same theme. But if you're trying to scale it out to a different Persona or a different angle, it has to evolve into a different.
- [13:40]
Sarah Levenger
Yes. You can't just like jump ship constantly. You can't just like willy nilly your way through all these different tests. I agree with this 100% because I think at the end of the day, the brain can tell if, like, we don't know what we're doing. Our customers. Brains.
- [13:54]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah.
- [13:55]
Sarah Levenger
Can tell because they'll work through this ad and they'll go like, this doesn't make any sense. Like they're bouncing all around. Yeah, it's disconnected, this disassociated ad.
- [14:02]
Joanna Wallace
And I think also it's kind of like how you can't edit your own writing because you're, you're, you fill in the gaps. You don't see the typo or like the double word because you know what you were trying to say. And I think that's where people really get, get lost. And that's why you have to have a reviewer and that's why you have to have like a boss, a senior director of creative strategy, whatever it is. Because somebody who didn't make that ad has to look at it top down and be like, bro, you got lost.
- [14:31]
Sarah Levenger
Yes. Thank you. Oh my gosh. I love this topic because this happens constantly in every single ad account I've ever audited. Is this idea of like, did you notice that, like, you're pivoting here to a completely different mental, like, process? Like you're asking the brain to think about too much is the problem. One thing at a time. You gotta go pretty slow through these things. Mostly because, like, scientifically you're not testing in a very good way. You're making kind of like weird, like, don't go anymore.
- [14:56]
Joanna Wallace
And then people are like, this angle doesn't work. And I'm like, no, your approach to this angle didn't work.
- [15:00]
Sarah Levenger
Thank you.
- [15:01]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, you don't approach it like, different ways, then you can write it off. But if you've approached it one way and you're like, it doesn't work. Throwing my hands up and it's like, did you do a good job?
- [15:11]
Sarah Levenger
I know well, this is the tough part, I think, too, because we now have AI which makes it almost too easy to get ads produced. I don't actually love the fact that we as marketers now don't have to put effort into making ads. It bothers me. Yes. I think we're just like, slowly kind of just becoming a little bit more mush up upstairs because we're getting to the point where it's like, oh, I'll just have ch create like 50 of these. I'll just throw it in the ad account, put cost caps on. It's fine. Like, I don't love this because you're basically taking all of the subconscious knowledge you have around the brand, the product, the offer, and the customer, and you're asking a computer to make a subjective decision. Not. Well, basically an objective decision. Right. Not a subjective one, but an objective one based on all these numbers. Which way do you think I should go? And the computer, who has no knowledge or experience of the real world, by the way, has never seen a tree, has no idea what hexpad pans are, doesn't even know what this is. Now you're like, tell me what I should do. I'm like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen because it doesn't make sense. Like, the computer is gonna go, I don't know what a tree is, but okay, I'll just give you a guess based upon a mathematical, statistical, like, observation that I've made in the pattern of the data that you've given me, which is just a small, teeny, tiny, like, clip of a person on one specific day two years ago. Here's what I think you should do. And we're like, yes, that makes sense. I'm like, no, don't do that, please.
- [16:39]
Joanna Wallace
Oh, it's a great jumping off point. But then you have to have. You have to be discerning. And it's probably like professors can tell if you. If you let Chat GPT write your paper or if you use it as a jumping off point. I like to use Chat GPT for, like, in inspiring me when I feel stuck.
- [16:58]
Sarah Levenger
Yes.
- [16:59]
Joanna Wallace
I think you have to take a stab at it yourself first. Use your brain first. Don't take. Don't spend too long on it, though. Just. You should be jump starting.
- [17:09]
Sarah Levenger
Yep.
- [17:10]
Joanna Wallace
Then go, hey, chatgpt, how do I flesh this out? Or I got a little stuck on this one thing. Help me unstick. And then once you kind of get to the point of you know where you're going, then it's like, give me 10 more. Give me 10 more. Give me ten more. Make it in this tone, make it in that tone. Um, yeah, I find it really helpful as kind of honestly, like, especially if you're like a freelancer or consultant and you're working in a creative vacuum, I like having AI as kind of like your person to bounce things off of. But it shouldn't be telling you what to do.
- [17:40]
Sarah Levenger
It should be, I love it. Yeah. As like a second brain.
- [17:44]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah.
- [17:44]
Sarah Levenger
Somebody sit here with me. And especially if it's a brain that's trained on my brain, that's highly beneficial to me because I can like suss out my ideas a whole lot better by actually challenging myself. And this is the reason I actually love AI when it comes to creative strategy is sometimes I get stuck like with the whole Memorial Day, like sale name. Right. Sometimes I just don't know which way to go because I'm like, I just can't think anymore. My brain can't pull out any more creativity. But if I stick it in a chat and I say, chat, give me ideas, chat gives me 10, usually I'll go through and I'll say, okay, I'm going to challenge you on this. Don't just come up with some like, bland thing. Give me something that's a little bit more creative or usually what I do is like product development. So if I have a product, I'll stick it to Chat and specifically ask chat to go through and rip it apart. I'm like, chat, check my work on this. Is this a good idea? Do you think that this will sell to people? Do you think they'll like it? Is it going to be valuable? Is usually the question I start with. Usually the first iteration of my ideas chat is like, nope, this is the stupidest thing you've ever thought of. Do not put this into the world, Sarah. And then I'll go through another like three or four hours of working. But the nice part is a lot of my products hit the second I put them out because I've already gone through and done basically like product market fit before I put it into the market.
- [19:01]
Joanna Wallace
And you didn't have to pay anyone.
- [19:02]
Sarah Levenger
And I pay 20 bucks a month, you know, like, woo chat.
- [19:05]
Joanna Wallace
Right.
- [19:05]
Sarah Levenger
So I don't, I don't like to use it for production, I just like to use it.
- [19:09]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, well, I, I see it like the way, oh my God, I feel so old when I talk about this, but I see it as like kind of what we used to use thesaurus for. Yeah. It's like, shoot, I need a synonym. Yeah, where do I go? And then you end up down the rabbit hole of like that word similar, which gives me to that word, which gives me that word. And that's not a lot less helpful. But I also think that, like, there's a really slippery slope of AI where your brain is going to become less creative. And so I'm very protective of my brain where I will not smart come to AI till I need it. When I hit a wall, I use it, but I understand it might take me slightly longer, but I will atrophy my brain long term if I don't keep using that muscle. And I think a lot of people are gonna end up being so reliant. And it's kind of like how we all started forgetting facts once we had Google and we could just Google it. Oh, I don't remember when the Civil War was quick. Let's Google when the Civil war is in my soul. None of us remember anything anymore because our brains are realizing you don't need to. You have an external hard drive. You can get this answered. Get that out of your head. Save your brain for some other stuff that you can't get answered externally. I'm very protective.
- [20:27]
Sarah Levenger
I'm so glad you are though. That's a really smart tip, honestly. And I've been noticing this in my own work. Sometimes I will sit with chat and I'll have a really good brainstorm going where I'm like, this is a really good idea. Like, I can just tell this is a good piece of content, good product, whatever it is. And then I will lose it inside chat because then I'll open more chat windows and be like, here's another one, here's another one. So. And again, I. If I. I'd probably be more organized and that would help with this because you can put into projects and like put in folders and all kinds of different things. However, I don't know even with that, because I'm talking to chat basically all day long, I don't know that I'd be able to find some of the more nuanced stuff because it's buried in a thread that's like 200 different pages long. So I get nervous that we're doing our own internal thought processes in a computer now because we get. We lose the best ideas. They're just buried in some thread somewhere. And even if you can find it, you have to remember that it was in that thread. And I have a hard time with that too. It reminds me so nervous.
- [21:23]
Joanna Wallace
It reminds me a lot of like the just quintessential creative strategy department problem, which is what do you do with all your brainstormed ideas? Do you put it in a document? Do you put it in a spreadsheet? Do you have it like green light, yellow light, red light? Like, how do you keep track of every genius idea and then when it becomes a hundred page document, how the hell do you sift through it? And then you also have the same idea like 10 times and see it.
- [21:46]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah, yeah. Well, and you and I did a lot of work with this too. Talking about the fact that the way our teams like prioritize their ideas is pretty important. And I, I typically default to prioritizing by demographics, like generation or specifically by like avatar or emotion. So emotional work, which I think is kind of important, especially when you're going into the ad account. How you prioritize before anything goes into that account is critical because again, you can just throw it all in there. And maybe we should just jump into like volume, because this is like, this is the crux of the issue for me. Again, I don't mind. I've had a lot of people be like, you're so angry at volume. I don't mind volume. I do not mind that as a testing methodology. But I only use it after I've already figured out like, which emotions are going to hit which messages I want to use. And specifically for taking a core message that we have used for years and just continuing to like juice that orange. That's the only reason I would use it. I don't use it to test big swings. That makes no logical sense to me. I'm like, you're wasting the majority of your budget over here on just like seeing if the algorithm likes pink versus blue. Like, you're basically doing CRO level tests inside an ad account. I don't, it doesn't make any sense to. I get confused. It doesn't make sense.
- [23:03]
Joanna Wallace
I do too. And I think I know you and I agree on this. Like, I think research and thoughtfulness are just so important. And I think that most places don't have the staff or the time to be doing the research properly in the first place. And so I think that it's already hard for strategists on the hamster wheel, especially if you're at an agency. Dear Lord, like a whole poor agency people, we see that therapists that specialize in strategists for agencies. It's a rough life.
- [23:35]
Sarah Levenger
That's so true.
- [23:36]
Joanna Wallace
But yeah, you're already on the hamster wheel, so you Already, especially if you have multiple brands that you're trying to become. You are moving so fast, and I think using AI to help you move fast is great. Using AI to overwork is not great.
- [23:56]
Sarah Levenger
Agreed.
- [23:57]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah. Because I think that then it's like, oh, you can work faster, so you should, you should now have insane output. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. The hamster wheel is already a problem, as is take AI out of it before that even was a thing. People aren't spending enough time thinking through what they're doing. That's why you have that opener issue where people don't realize they have to connect the opener to the on ramp and make those adjustments. People are just slapping openers. Opener, opener. I did a test and I think when you already have that hamster wheel, unless you have support staff that is constantly doing research, which most people don't, you are already veering, veering, veering away from where you're supposed to be. Because now you're starting to run on intuition. And if you're a really great strategist, your intuition will get you far enough and you're like, oh, it's fine, it's good enough. Eventually we'll catch up to you. And if you start making that hamster wheel faster, people are going to put even less thought into what they're doing. And I understand that, like, AI is helping you think, but it still needs finessing. You know, if you're an author, you're going to have an editor. You're not going to go publish your book without somebody reading it and giving you feedback. So you still have to give feedback on all of that. It's like when I have a bunch of agencies that work for my brand, I still have to. And they churn, churn, churn. The more they send me, the more I have to review. It's still a lot you creating more, more, more work. You're setting yourself back because unless you have the staff and the capacity to continue a parallel research, thoughtfulness, whatever, continuing to do research and be thoughtful, you're just diluting everything you're doing and you're burning your team out.
- [25:42]
Sarah Levenger
That's the biggest call out. You're burning your team out by doing this style of testing. Stop it.
- [25:47]
Joanna Wallace
I would love to see in a year just how much like people thinking that AI makes the job easier, but it actually is contributing to burnout. It reminds me also a lot of when computers started to the Internet, everything became a thing in the office and suddenly people were able to be more productive. And faster. And what, it didn't mean that we worked fewer hours. We, we then were expected to do more work in our eight hour day than somebody in the 90s was expected to do in an eight hour day. So the, the, the expectations get bigger and bigger and bigger and that it's just, it's, it's not sustainable.
- [26:22]
Sarah Levenger
No, it's not sustainable. And it's also a little bit ridiculous to assume that this is contributing to growth. You know, I don't necessarily believe that it is.
- [26:31]
Joanna Wallace
Honestly though. Okay. I feel like I'm gonna get a lot of shit for this. It's okay. I think the volume thing comes from the media buyer brain. I don't think any, not any creative. But like, I think creatives don't think like that. I think that that is, I think this volume game has been kind of thought up by people who are more numbers and data oriented and they just, they think that that's the way to go. Not understanding what goes into making creative. Yeah, it sounds really good, but you're not the. But, but you're, you're not actually making it. You don't know what goes into it.
- [27:14]
Sarah Levenger
I think volume was a side effect of really just incentivizing overproduction. I also think it's a panic response.
- [27:24]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, yeah, I really think it's a panic response. I think also as the algorithm has evolved and you can't just do these minor headline changes, you have to take bigger swings. I think that's more work. So maybe that also inspired people to utilize AI more. Because if your scales have to be heavier. Lift.
- [27:44]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah.
- [27:45]
Joanna Wallace
Like how are you going to make up for that? Yeah, I'm not sure exactly, but I just, you know, it may work for some, but I think especially if you don't have a ton of spend. Just be thoughtful.
- [27:55]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah, be more thoughtful about it. Yeah, I would agree. Volume is such, such a tough game though too, because I've noticed that the, the size of the brand kind of matters for some reason. And this is anecdotal, it's just from like talking to a bunch of media buyers and creative strategists in the space. Oftentimes I see once you get about like 7, 8 figure, then volume starts to work for you. And it's because up until then you have no idea what's going to hit with your audience because you're new to business, you're new to the industry. You're just figuring all this out while you're in that six, seven figure range. You're usually like a Solo bootstrapped, very exhausted, tired founder who's running your own ads. Then you start to make some cash and you start to get people to hire on board. Like you're starting to build a team and things start to get a little easier and you actually have people that have expertise. Once you have people that come in that have expertise, it's your job to incentivize them to go get money. So what do you do? You incentivize what you think will get money, which is typically go do more work. More work is incentivized, especially in our capitalist system. So what are they going to do? My boss likes it when I look like I'm working, when I bring him more reports, when I show him more.
- [29:02]
Joanna Wallace
Data and so learning phase.
- [29:04]
Sarah Levenger
That's what I'm saying. So this to to your point, I 100 agree. I think a data mindset inside the industry and I posted on this a couple weeks ago, a couple weeks or last week sometime where I talked about the fact changing our language from growing a brand to scaling a brand did more damage than I think anything else in the industry has ever done, specifically because we told people to incentivize or reward large amounts of data. Now, I work in data people. I can tell you from experience, large amounts of data don't do shit. It won't tell me why people purchase from you, it just tells me what they're doing currently, how they're behaving. It tells me what they're clicking on. It didn't tell me why they clicked on it. I don't care how much data you have. I've seen some of the best brands, some of the biggest growth I've ever seen came from rich data. One tiny nugget that we took in very carefully, placed into well ventilated soil, watered it very carefully over the course of like 2 to 5 to 6 to 10 months and it grew and grew and grew. Instead of just like scattering seeds out and going, ah, one of them will grow up. I'm like, stop that. This is just gonna be out.
- [30:15]
Joanna Wallace
And you also don't have time to then analyze all those ads properly. So like so many companies get stuck in the it works or it doesn't work, it works on whom, it doesn't work on whom and why. And nobody has time to then look deeper. And then the other thing is, if you are going to go with volume, fine, but then pause for a second every so often and relaunch because a lot of your stuff got buried. And it's not necessarily because it's not good. But I think the other thing that, you know, going in house has really taught me is protecting your brand. And I think that this volume game scares the shit out of me when I'm protecting especially like a high AOV brand. You know, I'm trying to use Dr. Best Practices while not also doing performance at all costs because that will tarnish your brand. That is again, we'll have long term major consequences.
- [31:09]
Sarah Levenger
I agree. 100 yes.
- [31:11]
Joanna Wallace
When people are like, I'll test anything, I'll test anything. I'm like, to a point. Because anything out on the Internet is going to affect, even if it is not seen by all that many people, it shapes how your brand is seen. So for example, if you're putting out all these AI ads and you haven't had a chance to really vet them, you're representing the brand. They're not just going into the ethos. People are seeing them and people are forming opinions on your company based on what they're seeing. And I, for example, like with hexclad specifically, I'm like, listen, if I'm asking you to pay a thousand bucks for a cookware set, you better believe the margins on my static ads are going to be perfection.
- [31:56]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah.
- [31:56]
Joanna Wallace
Because maybe it's just me and I'm compulsive and grew up with a mother who was like a cameraman. But like when I see errors or sloppiness in an ad, I assume the product is sloppy, the company is sloppy and maybe I'm, I'm not. Everybody thinks like that. But that doesn't matter. I am a Persona. I am a Persona out there. You have now alienated me.
- [32:21]
Sarah Levenger
Yes.
- [32:22]
Joanna Wallace
And that it's so important. Less is more is because if you think long term, you need to make sure everything you put out there you are proud of. You can, you know, perfection is the enemy of whatever the hell. But like a micro, like I go a little crazy about like that semicolon versus a period. So I know that's something I have to work on. But like that's not a big deal. But yeah, but yeah, your reputation is on the line with every content. Especially because like you make a mistake, people will jump on that. If you're in the public eye, you can't afford like what if your ad is accidentally offensive?
- [33:04]
Sarah Levenger
Yep. Yeah. It's so true. Well, I think people are sacrificing brand for growth.
- [33:09]
Joanna Wallace
Growth.
- [33:09]
Sarah Levenger
That's what we've been doing for the last 10 years. It's gotta catch up.
- [33:13]
Joanna Wallace
Maybe you'll be at A different job by then. So it won't affect you.
- [33:17]
Sarah Levenger
The brand itself. Yeah. And I find this fascinating because I got huge flack on Twitter like probably about a week ago because I told people I was like, I don't really love direct response at this point because I think we've overused it. I think it's overdone. I think it's taught us to focus primarily on sales and not on brand. I think it's a detriment because it's, it's sacrificing emotional connection for conversion rate.
- [33:38]
Joanna Wallace
And it's rise of the agencies and because the agencies do not have the same agenda as a brand. So you have the longevity there. You don't know how long you're going to be working for that company. You have to prove yourself every single day that you are valuable because you're asking for a check every month.
- [33:54]
Sarah Levenger
Yeah.
- [33:55]
Joanna Wallace
And you don't have the same. It's a renter versus an owner. When you're renting an apartment, you don't really care if you scuff up.
- [34:03]
Sarah Levenger
That's a bar. Oh my God. Yes, I agree with it.
- [34:07]
Joanna Wallace
As an owner. I, I care about that. I'm gonna fix it about it and that's the difference. And agencies are renting your brand. A brand is owning it. Oh my God. Did I just come up with the best metaphor ever?
- [34:18]
Sarah Levenger
You just came up with the best.
- [34:20]
Joanna Wallace
Wait. It's even better than agriculture.
- [34:22]
Sarah Levenger
That was such like poignant though. Just Chef's kiss, right? Spot on. I truly believe that this is like where we're having issues and this is the reason why people fight over it on the Internet all day. Because I, I truly believe the people that are fighting for volume have a monetary reason that they want volume to be a part of the conversation. Now again, this is not the. Volume doesn't work. I don't want anybody to be like, oh my God, ridiculous. Volume has its place, but the people who use it predominantly are the people who have like a monetary invested interest in keeping that alive. And it's not always good for the health of the business to produce that much creative. Yeah, it's just not good. So I agree with this a hundred percent. I think it's very interesting for us to think about like the ecosystems that these brands are actually being built in because it's a, it's an entirely. It's like a very, very well connected ecosystem. Some of it's symbiotic and some of it is parasitic. And like all of us are working together. How your Creative strategist feels the creative strategist inside an agency in Ohio. She. Her. Her ecosystem that she's building is going to affect the large scale brand that exists in New York City because everybody's on Twitter watching each other talk about this stuff. So, yeah, man, people.
- [35:40]
Joanna Wallace
The number of times, and I know everyone has had experience this, the number of times that somebody has read something on LinkedIn or. Or X or Twitter and then slacks it to a team and is like, do this. This is the expert opinion. You have to do this. And I think that people get really scared because there's so much money on the line here and there's so much pressure to perform that I think that if enough people start saying something on the Internet, yeah. People are like, it must be true. I'm not doing it right. Panic, panic, panic. Copy them.
- [36:14]
Sarah Levenger
Availability bias. Oh, my God.
- [36:16]
Joanna Wallace
Oh, yeah.
- [36:17]
Sarah Levenger
That's the professional term for it. Availability bias. Any quickly is true.
- [36:23]
Joanna Wallace
And it's even like, do I want to say that I disagree? Am I, Am I wrong? I second guess myself because, like, am I wrong? Because I'm seeing so many experts say something different, and then I have to sit and just be like, no. I also know what I'm doing, and there are different ways of doing things. Me being right does not mean that you are wrong at all. But I think that there's never one way to do things. And if you see experts saying something on LinkedIn and you're like, oh, my God, I'm doing everything wrong, scrap it. Scrap it. Do it their way. Like, please, just take everything with a grain of salt, put it in your ecosystem and see how it applies.
- [36:59]
Sarah Levenger
Yes.
- [37:00]
Joanna Wallace
You could be getting advice from somebody who has a consumable and you have a product that, you know, you keep for life. Those are different you. It's the same way when you're adapting an ad, you're like, oh, I'm on foreplay. Look at this clothing. This T shirt ad. I'm gonna adapt it for my mattress company. And it's like, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Does this apply?
- [37:23]
Sarah Levenger
Does it apply?
- [37:24]
Joanna Wallace
Or is it just a top performer for something totally different from you?
- [37:29]
Sarah Levenger
Which, spoiler alert, it literally is. You could be in the exact same industry, exact same product, exact same everything, and it would still not apply to you. Not everything you see on Twitter applies to you. Oh, my God, I love this conversation. Okay, we've been chatting for a minute. Is there anything else you want to touch on?
- [37:45]
Joanna Wallace
I would also just say that I think something I wish People would really think about a little bit more closely is when you are copying or like when you are learning from other brands or when you are doing a ton of ads. Can you different. Can somebody differentiate your brand on the feed?
- [38:07]
Sarah Levenger
Yes. So they know it's you.
- [38:09]
Joanna Wallace
Will they know it's you? And if you're copying, like, I know we've like meandered on all these topics. If you're copying what's working for somebody else, you might not be separate, separable on the, on the feed from that brand or from your, you know, like copying your competitors makes you all homogenized. So I think with AI, you have to be really careful and with this volume, you have to be really careful. But everything you're still putting out is on brand, not just in messaging, but in visuals and in spirit. Because otherwise you are diluting your brand. People are. It's just going all over the place. And if your brand is spastic, how are people supposed to latch onto it, understand it, and respect it?
- [38:54]
Sarah Levenger
Yes. Your vibe attracts your tribe people. Your vibe is critical. It actually applies to brands, I think, better than it does to humans most times. Vibe is literally everything in marketing. Okay. Oh, I want to keep talking about this, but we're. You and I just talk about it a brunch all day. Where can people find you? What are you working on? Like, how can they get connected with you if they want to work with you? Where?
- [39:15]
Joanna Wallace
Yeah, these days I'm a. I'm a LinkedIn whore. I love me some LinkedIn. I'm also on Twitter. God, like Joe Wall 202, you know, with my old. My original area code. What up?
- [39:28]
Sarah Levenger
Nice. I miss those days. Yeah.
- [39:32]
Joanna Wallace
Doing a lot of consulting now for brands like, you know, people who are trying to start their creative strategy department from scratch. Don't know, you know, don't understand if they need it, why they need it. I'm. I have, you know, course courses on, like, how to structure it, what the platforms and the programs and the processes and the hiring. And then also just, you know, how can I help you make your creative strategy better? And. Yeah, so that's kind of. That's what I'm doing now.
- [39:58]
Sarah Levenger
I love it. Everybody go talk to Joanna. I will put her links all in the show notes so you guys have access. But Joanna, one of the strongest creative strategists I've ever worked with. Fantastic. Just lady in general, like, you are such a kind human and I love it.
- [40:13]
Joanna Wallace
That's my new LinkedIn Fantastic Lady Lady.
- [40:18]
Sarah Levenger
So says Sarah. Loved you. Oh, my Gosh. Okay. Thank you for joining me today. This was so fun. I love chatting, especially about creative because I don't get in the creative weeds much anymore. I'm so on the psychology side that we'd, like, teach a lot, but it's nice to just have conversation about, like, what do we see in the industry? What's happening out here and is like, is this right? Should we be following all of these, like, different people that are saying things? Even with Sarah, people like, double check. Should you be following anybody? I think you should apply it to your own brand and test and see if it works for you. Great. Keep doing it. Yeah, well, there's lots of different ways.
- [40:49]
Joanna Wallace
To do things, and I don't. I just think there aren't a ton, ton of creative first voices out there right now. Agreed. I think there's a lot of really smart people, really smart people giving you really great advice, but I just don't see a lot of people who have come up in a real creative background. I see people who come up with a more analytic background. And I think that there needs to be a bit more balance of the advice you're getting from people who have different specialties.
- [41:15]
Sarah Levenger
I love it. You need to start a podcast. That's what you need to do. We need to hear a podcast just from Joanna. Okay. Like, subscribe, Follow me at Sarah Levenger. Everywhere you can see podcasts. Thank you for coming. This was great.
- [41:27]
Joanna Wallace
Of course. Always.
- [41:30]
Sarah Levenger
Brain Driven Brands is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire Podcast Network and is presented by Tether Insights. For more information, go to tetherinsights IO.