What’s NOT Working Tells You More About What Will (Here’s Why…)

Summary

Brain Driven Brands: What’s NOT Working Tells You More About What Will (Here’s Why…)

Release Date: July 24, 2025

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Brain Driven Brands, host Sarah Levinger delves deep into the pivotal role that understanding failures plays in shaping successful marketing strategies. Through a dynamic conversation with her co-host, the episode emphasizes the importance of analyzing what isn't working to uncover insights that drive future success.

Navigating Challenges and Setting the Stage [00:04 - 04:28]

The episode kicks off with a candid discussion about the challenges faced during recent podcast recordings. Sarah and her co-host share humorous anecdotes about technical glitches, family interruptions, and unconventional weekend plans, including golf tournaments and bull riding. This lighthearted segment sets a relatable tone, showcasing the human side of running a podcast.

Critiquing the "Win-Focused" Mindset [04:28 - 07:55]

The conversation takes a pivotal turn as Sarah shifts the focus to a critical analysis of marketing practices on social media. At [04:28], Sarah introduces her critique of Nate Legos’ Twitter presence:

Sarah [04:33]: "All I see is wins, sir. ... I was like, Nate Legos, stop that."

She challenges the prevalent trend of only showcasing successes, arguing that this approach misses valuable lessons hidden in failures. Sarah emphasizes:

Sarah [05:24]: "What’s not working will always teach you something about what will work."

Leveraging Failures for Strategic Insights [07:55 - 13:00]

Sarah and her co-host delve into the mechanics of creative testing in marketing. Sarah shares her experiences with testing different copy strategies and the challenges of targeting minority segments within their customer base. She explains her methodology:

Sarah [06:34]: "I think ... testing our core message in different valence zones ... I'm testing it on our website first, which has always been like our creative testing grounds."

Her co-host underscores the importance of structured testing:

Co-Host [11:49]: "Write down exactly what it is the test is supposed to prove."

Together, they highlight the necessity of having clear hypotheses when conducting marketing experiments, ensuring that each test has a defined objective beyond merely trying new angles.

Understanding and Injecting Cultural Threads [13:00 - 24:18]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the concept of "cultural threads" in branding. Sarah illustrates this with the Always campaign, which addressed the pervasive cultural trend of negative perceptions around femininity:

Sarah [21:20]: "They decided to go do a giant study, figure out what these women were most focused on. ... They noticed ... being a girl was not okay."

She contrasts this with current cultural sentiments affecting masculinity, noting a shift in societal perceptions:

Co-Host [24:00]: "It's not okay to be a guy ... toxic masculine."

The discussion emphasizes the delicate balance brands must maintain when addressing such sensitive topics, advocating for empathetic and supportive messaging rather than confrontational approaches.

Practical Takeaways and Strategies [24:18 - 27:30]

Sarah and her co-host offer actionable strategies for marketers:

1. Structured Testing: Implement the TEAP model (Trigger, Exploration, Evaluation, Purchase) to understand customer journeys and optimize marketing efforts accordingly.

2. Learning from Failures: Actively seek insights from unsuccessful campaigns to inform future strategies, rather than solely focusing on what has worked.

3. Cultural Sensitivity: Engage with current cultural trends thoughtfully, ensuring that marketing messages resonate authentically and empathetically with the target audience.

Conclusion and Resources [27:30 - End]

Wrapping up the episode, Sarah and her co-host reflect on the importance of embracing and analyzing what isn't working to pave the way for future successes. They encourage listeners to engage with their community for deeper insights and offer resources for those looking to enhance their marketing strategies through psychology and neuromarketing techniques.

Co-Host [28:17]: "If you guys want to learn more about applying psychology to your ads, ... check out SKOOL.com/backslash tetherlab."

Listeners are invited to join Tether Insights and explore further learning opportunities to apply the discussed principles effectively.

Notable Quotes

• Sarah [05:24]: "What’s not working will always teach you something about what will work."

• Co-Host [11:49]: "Write down exactly what it is the test is supposed to prove."

• Sarah [21:20]: "They decided to go do a giant study... being a girl was not okay."

• Co-Host [24:00]: "It's not okay to be a guy ... toxic masculine."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Brain Driven Brands underscores the invaluable lessons that can be gleaned from setbacks and failures. By shifting the focus from solely celebrating wins to critically analyzing what doesn't work, marketers can uncover deeper insights that drive meaningful and sustainable growth. Sarah and her co-host provide a compelling narrative on the intersection of psychology, culture, and marketing strategy, offering listeners both inspiration and practical tools to elevate their brands.

For more information and to join the conversation, visit Tether Insights and explore the Brain Driven Brands podcast on the Learn and Laugh series via the Quickfire podcast network.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to Brain Driven Brands. Recording on a Thursday feels weird. I'm not gonna lie.

[B]

Doesn't this feel wrong? It's like, this is not. Nope. This. This is a weird day to do this on. And I disagree with what's happening right now. Yep. This is how we do nowadays when you have a business and sometimes you have to change schedules. It does happen every now and then, people. So welcome. We're on a Thursday recording. Hopefully this recording goes well. I have tried, like, four different podcasts in the last couple weeks and none of them did well. I had so many connectivity issues and, like, the dog came in and the kids were all over the place. So I apologize to literally everybody I've had on my show in the last couple weeks because, yeah, it hasn't been great. I'm sorry.

[A]

We're stumbling towards the hundredth episode, huh? It's really.

[B]

I know you think we'd be getting better at.

[A]

This is really limping towards the finish line.

[B]

We're not getting better at all. In fact, I think we're getting.

[A]

Yeah, that's all right.

[B]

How's your week going? How's things for you? Last time I saw it was last week when we recorded an episode and I think I had to jump or something. We didn't even get to, like, catch up. So how are you?

[A]

I'm doing good. Thanks for asking. Very, very busy, and the next seven days are going to be nuts. Can I tell you what my next seven days look like?

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

Got a golf tournament I'm playing in this weekend.

[B]

Oh, okay. Well, I thought you were gonna say work.

[A]

I mean, that's still a task I.

[B]

Gotta do, you know, check it off the list.

[A]

Golf tournament Friday and Saturday. I'm riding bulls on Sunday.

[B]

What? You're riding like. Like an animal bull?

[A]

Yeah, like rodeo, not Red Bull.

[B]

You're not like, bounty Red Bull. Okay. Fascinating riding.

[A]

Why? Midlife crisis. Don't worry about it. I'm fine. Wednesday, flying to New York to give a keynote on copywriting.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That'll be fun. But then after that, I think I'm done. I think I'm, like, locked down for the year, so. I'm very excited.

[B]

This is going to be your peak season for you. I'm really excited to just watch how this week goes. Well, because it sounds like you're having just tons of fun. I want to go have fun like this. It's gonna be great.

[A]

I mean, pick up golf and bull.

[B]

Riding, you know, I think I'm okay golfing. I have Tried. And let me just tell you, the people on the golf course, we're not prassair. Yeah, they were very scary and mean to me. And one gentleman told me that if I don't go faster, the golf warden was going to come penalize me. And I was like, what the hell is the golf warden? And I got really stressed out and then I left. So that was my one and only experience on a golf course. Tell me. I don't. The golf makes sense for you. That's on brand question, though, about the bull riding. Why is that happening?

[A]

Yeah, I need more excitement in my life. My life's pretty boring. I need some adrenaline. Yeah, I've done like, some off roading stuff. I've done some, like, a little bit of, like, racing stuff here and there. But, yeah, I just need some adrenaline in my life. So I've gotten down the list of bull riding. I'll let you know.

[B]

Sign you up for this. And how in the hell did you even get, like, involved? I'm just confused more than anything.

[A]

I just found a spot that does it.

[B]

Think you just can sign up. It's just like, I think I just.

[A]

Show up to this place. It's a sketchy farm in Georgia. I pay them like 50 bucks and they'll let me do whatever I want.

[B]

All right, for everybody listening, if you need a good Friday night activity, go write some bulls. I'm weirded out by this, but okay. All right, well, you're gonna have to let us know how that went for you and what your experience is.

[A]

Yeah, I'll let you know how many bones I break.

[B]

Let me also just caveat maybe, I don't know, we need to get some, like, listener weigh in on this. Does anybody know what age you typically go through a midlife crisis? Because I'm pretty sure you're younger than me and this is concerning that.

[A]

I'm definitely younger than you. Thank you for bringing that up. It's been a few episodes since we've talked about that. I'm 29, which, I mean, is. Is basically 10 years younger than Sarah.

[B]

I'm more concerned. I'm just like, you're 29. Like, that can't be midlife. That's terrifying if that's midlife for you. All right, I digress. This is great. I'm a. You're having a good time. My husband is going through the same thing, and he's only. What? He's 36 and he's like, I'm gonna pick up, like, all kinds of weird hobbies and Activities. And I'm gonna retire, and I'm just like, what? Okay. Midlife for men is apparently a lot younger than for women. Statistically, we do live longer, so I'm okay with that. All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Into today's episode, because I don't want to hear another word about how you're young.

[A]

All that's getting cut, by the way. That's not good content.

[B]

I was gonna say now we're just shooting at this point. Okay, so today's topic. I actually have a bone to pick with Nate Legos today, and I. I. Yes. So get ready, because I was scrolling down your. Your feed today, your profile, and all I see is something that I don't like seeing predominantly on feed. So why. Your face is amazing right now. I'm so happy with how scared you are. This is great. All right, here's what I'm seeing across Nate Legos profile. If you guys haven't been on there, like, my Twitter. Your Twitter? Yes. I'm upset by this. All I see is wins, sir. I saw screenshot after screenshot after screenshot of. Look at this, Roas. And it's because I eat red meat. Look at this. Look at this, like, conversion rate. And it's because I drink Red Bull. I was like, nate Legos, stop that. First of all, you can't always win. And I think this is a bad habit that we do on Twitter that I'm calling you out for your bullshit. Also because I want to call everybody else out, but I can't, because I feel bad doing that step. But for you, I could do it. So my question to you is, for this episode, what's not working? Let's talk about what's not working for you, because I. I'm interested in this because I see a lot of wins, which is great. You win a lot. Do you. What's not working right now? Is there anything that's, like, broken?

[A]

Yeah. Okay. For sure. No, there's definitely things that we are looking for.

[B]

Okay. That's what I want to hear about today. What's. Let's talk about it.

[A]

I will. Let me first caveat. This whole thing was like, It's. There's way less not working than there is working.

[B]

I'll give it to you. You're a good marketer, so I'm really digging on you because it's funny, but. All right, so you got a lot.

[A]

Here's what's. Here's some things. I'm struggling with these.

[B]

Oh, okay, now ready? This is why I love it.

[A]

I am trying really Hard to find different ways to communicate our same core message.

[B]

Smart. Okay. Yep.

[A]

I think, like, the whole, like, built for living, worn for, legacy angle that we have, that we've tested a bunch of copy for has gone well, but that's not how everyone talks. That's now how everyone wants to be talked to. So we've tested a lot of copy recently that's lost. That is me trying to say our core message in different valence zones like we talked about. I've gone through chat and I've gone through customer reviews to try to pull out, like, basically, like, individual customers. I'll just, like, pick, like, Sally and I'll learn what I can about her and be like, what if I wrote this specifically for her and we've tested it? Not a lot of wins happening there. No. If I'm doing it wrong, I don't know if our core message is that good that it's so, so hard to beat. What I think it is. What I think, like, the crux of the problem is I'm testing all this copy on our website, which has always been like, our creative testing grounds. And then when something hits on the website, I know, okay, this absolutely drives conversions. Put it in ads, and then our hit rate on ads is way higher. So I do creative testing backwards.

[B]

Backwards. Yeah.

[A]

It's way more reliable, and the better way to do it for sure. But where I think it might be falling short.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is I'm now writing towards, like, minorities within our customer base and then testing it against the majority of our site visitors.

[B]

So this is a good one, dude. I feel like this is something that a lot of brands struggle with, but they struggle to, like, put it into words. So this is great that you were able to, like, articulate that. We are now very well versed at our core audience. We're so good at it, in fact, that we can throw a lot of messages out. And typically they usually work over here, though, in the pocket. We're trying now to open up other markets or to speak to people that maybe we haven't spoken well to in the past. How do we do that when the messages that we're testing aren't working? And the reason I bring this up is I had this chat with, I think it was a founder sometime a couple weeks ago, where his hundred percent, the same thing, like, very similar conversation that we had. But his question was more like, how do we take what's not working and learn about what will? This is the reason why I bring this up to you, because I'm like, What's not working will always teach you something about what will work. And this is big conversation on Twitter this week. Barry Hot actually did a. A very, very good breakdown. You guys don't follow Barry. I think it's at Bing Hot with two G's. That's his handle. But Barry did a very good job articulating this, which is funny because Barry and I sometimes clash on things because he's got a very different view of things than I do. Lovely gentleman, though. Very good post about the fact that, like, we are actually teaching meta to suck. We teach meta to suck at getting different people in the door because the creative that we build tells the algorithm who to go find. And if your creative is just regurgitating the same information, always know, like, over and over or. Another great way to say it. If you're taking your winners and trying to produce more winners from your winners, you're going to constantly find the same bucket of people over and over, and it's going to get more and more and more expensive. So I have a few different ways that I try and pull insights from the losers first to apply to the winners. But I want to see if you guys have, like, a system. Do you have anything that you track all your insights from?

[A]

Yeah. It's not super scientific, like most things I do, but practical. No, it's very tactical and practical. It's just not scientific method. Statistically significant.

[B]

Fine. That's totally fine. You can always improve.

[A]

You know, I've. I found it much easier to pull insights from losers when I'm testing, like, big angles. When I'm testing big changes in how we talk. I. It's very.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, I wrote some copy a little while ago that was like, what if I. I was writing to a prouder, louder, cockier segment of our audience? Didn't work. And I'm like, all right. Well, I kind of knew that's not who our guys were in the majority, but I thought, like, maybe we could find some guys like that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But I'm finding it harder to pick out what some of these, you know, minority groups could be within our content and, like, really learn from what I'm testing. Because I. I don't know. All I learned there is, like, all right, our guys aren't cocky, like.

[B]

Or.

[A]

Or at least they don't want to be confronted with their own cockiness.

[B]

There you go. It's not that they're not that particular person. It's just possible that they don't want that mirror shown to them.

[A]

Yeah. Just fair.

[B]

Who does, like, nobody. Nobody ever wants anything bad about them, like, mirrored back to them. This is the reason why when I test any sort of, like, new creative Net, new concepts or to a new market, I want to do a very, very, like, brief summary at the very beginning. Write it down. People. Like, write this down. It's so important to write down what the hell you're doing so that way you can go back and look at it later.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Write down exactly what it is the test is supposed to prove. Instead of just saying, we're gonna try a new angle and try and go after this person. Randomly throw in a bunch of crap into. Not crap, but, like, ads, into a campaign, and then just say, oh, it didn't work. I need to know what the heck are we trying to test for? And this is something I'm currently doing with a ton of brands recently, specifically in the community. Shout out to Tether Lab. I have tons and tons of people in there. If you guys will learn how to apply psychology to your advertising, go check out school S K-O-O-L.com I did it, Scotty. I spelled it for people. Okay. Inside the Cool. That's what we're talking about this week is you need to have a point, and every single campaign you run must have a testing reason. So I like to test things based upon customer journeys in the first, like, bucket. I like to test on demographics to figure out who's, like, which age group is going to respond best. And then emotionally. Now, there's all kinds of other different tests you can run, but typically, this is very different from what I see people run. Typically. We're talking a lot on Twitter, at least, about, like, cop cap, asc, like, dynamics.

[A]

That's a shot at me because I did one episode on cost caps this week. Damn it, Sarah.

[B]

All right, I did see that post.

[A]

I was like, I just did 12 episodes on the most tactical website testing strategy ever heard. Yeah. By the way, beat the numbers by this podcast by thousands. And then I do one episode on cost caps, and you're pissed at me.

[B]

That's the one. That was the one. That. That was the only one I saw on my feed. Honestly, I was kind of surprised because I was like, he did all this work on technical, practical, and that's the. That's the tweet that's apparently being fed to people is, like, cost. Yeah, funny. Anyway, I. So in general, I want to know. And this is a good question for D2C community. If you're listening to this podcast, come find us on Twitter. Tell me why you test the way you test.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why do you use cost gaps? And I don't want to hear any of this. Like, because it works. No, stop. I don't give a shit what works. Tell me why you chose cost caps as the thing you thought would work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why do you choose asc? Why did you use. Why do you use broad testing? Why don't you go after look alikes or interest? Like, why did you choose the structure that you did? Because at the end of the day, I'm okay if it's working, but there's a reason why it's working with the creative you're using. So in general, I test in the specific buckets that I test, because the first bucket, which is technically the TEAP model tip stands for trigger expiration, evaluation, purchase, trigger exploration evaluation, and purchase TEAP model, which was built off of a Google study where they were looking at the actual customer journey cycle, and that's the four different zones that they found. People will kind of morph in and out of these until they jump out to purchase. So I test based on the team model because I want to know which phase of the customer journey is going to get me the cheapest customer, which phase is going to get me highest ltv? Which phase sucks and only gets me impulse buyers who churn a lot. And which phase is really going to be where we need to focus the majority of our time? That's why I use that model, tells me which customers are the best. I have all kinds of different testing structures that I use and I actually interchange them depending on what I'm trying to learn. And I think this is the reason why I'm like, oh, your losers are going to teach you so much more about what customers want and where they are psychologically than your winners. Will winners just teach you that you hit on a good thread and that you should continue forward? Never going to teach you, though, how to talk to a different customer. So I love that you brought this up. So now my last question to you, or my guess, my next question. Last question.

[A]

Look at our lack of planning. Finally going well, huh? We actually have a point to this episode.

[B]

I mean, I sort of had plans. All I had, my only plan today was like, confront Nate and see where it goes.

[A]

But you didn't know I was struggling with this stuff.

[B]

I know I didn't. And I was like, this actually fits really well with what I'm learning right now. Anyway, okay, so my next question to you. What is it that you guys are currently looking to Learn. Cause you guys have done a ton of research with Tether Insights. You guys have done run a bunch of panels. You're looking to grow this year. You're actually really healthy. Like, you're a very healthy brand. You got a lot of really good processes in place. What is it that you're looking to learn with your test recently, outside of what you already shared? Because that's number one, obviously.

[A]

Yeah, super big picture. Like, we exploded when we learned how to sell to women.

[B]

Like, yeah, very true.

[A]

We've always been a men's watch brand. Um, we still sell 100% men's watches, but now 70 something percent of our customers are, are women. And when we figured that out from the first time we worked with you a couple years ago, by the way, almost four years ago at this point, three, like nuts.

[B]

We've been working together for quite a long time.

[A]

I know, like, what a huge unlock that was. And we went out, we've gone on a three year hot streak of like, can do no wrong. Everything rips. So I'm looking for more of that. If you got any more heroin, whether we can inject quick, because that was quite the ride. But no, obviously I, like, I know that nothing will be that because that effectively doubled the amount of people we could talk to. But I know there are, I think there are Personas out there that we're currently not speaking to because of the way we're speaking.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

And I want to be able to get this core message that we have that I think is like a very human feeling and communicate it to different people in a way that they all resonate with it. But then I. But then I look myself in the mirror and say, no, don't do that. If you try to talk to everyone, you're going to talk to no one and you're going to fade into obscurity. So I don't know. That's what I'm struggling with. Okay. I don't have an answer. You wanted to know what I'm struggling with. I'm going to crash out 12 whiskeys tonight because Sarah made me confront something I'm struggling at.

[B]

That's what I do. You come on this show with Sarah.

[A]

Just know I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you, I'm gonna email you the receipt for my bar tab tonight. And I expect the Brain Driven brand podcast to cover it.

[B]

Don't worry, Heather will cover it as a part of the therapy. Yeah. 100. Okay. But this is something that a lot of brand founders think about. A Lot of brand operators, especially if you're CMO or in charge of the marketing. All we think about all day long is like, is this the right decision? Am I going the right direction? Or should I just stay where I'm at and get really good at what I do? Every, like, guru person is going to tell you something different. In my, I don't know, in my view of, like, how we build brands and how the biggest brands became the biggest brands, it's usually because they somehow injected into some sort of cultural thread. You got real good at talking to men and that brought you up to X amount of revenue every single year, Right? Then you got real good at talking to their, like, wives, girlfriends, sisters, like, whoever it is, the women that brought you up to the next tier of, like, revenue generation. The next piece of this, honestly, I think is going to get. It's going to get interesting because you're going to have to get really good at building a brand like we talk about all the time on the podcast. So in my view of this, this is going to come down to what cultural thread can you now inject both of those really skilled kind of like, categories that you're good at into? So you have a very specific customer type on both sides who are very definitive in other things that they're interested in. How can we inject more of original grain into that? I think that's probably what's going to unlock it for you.

[A]

Can you define a cultural thread? Because what I don't want people to hear right now is like, a trend, because that's not what you're talking about 100%.

[B]

Okay, good call out.

[A]

I know you well enough to know that that's not what you're talking about. I have no clue what you're talking about, but I know it's not that.

[B]

No, it's not. Yes. This is not a trend. I am not looking for, like, run more sticky note ads. Like, please don't go do that. Especially for you guys. I don't know.

[A]

Barry's pissed at you again.

[B]

Okay, well, I know. Poor Barry. I'm like, please don't do that. Okay, so what I mean by a cultural trend, Great example of this, we're going to go left field because we're going to go from, like luxury watches over to tampons for a second. Always is a very good brand that noticed a cultural trend that, oddly enough, none of their competitors noticed very like this probably like 2014, 2017 somewhere, they noticed that there was a body positivity movement happening because they Paid attention to social. They were invested enough in their customers that they had somebody on their team who was just consuming a crap ton of content around women in general. Right? Girls in general. They noticed obviously there was a lot of body positivity happening. So they decided to go do a giant study, figure out what these women were most focused on. Now they were studying the age groups of probably, I'd say probably 11 upwards to about 20. And they asked all of these girls, like, what is it like to go through puberty for you? Does it suck? Is it great? Like, are you all about it? Like, what's happening? And obviously, as you would assume, most of these women would come back and say, it's all about, like, confidence. I lost all my confidence. I'm really awkward. Like, I don't feel good in my body. Right. Totally understandable. One of the threads, though, that they found was that specifically these women like girls. Two women were struggling with the fact that being a girl was not a good thing. Like, specifically just being that gender was not okay.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, jesus Christ, that's deep. This is a really ow painful thing that they found. And the interesting part was is these girls kept saying over and over, like, you know, one of the things that's not great is like the phrasing of run like a girl or like, hit like a girl, throw like a girl, right? Like, the like a girl phrase is really starting to bother me because now I'm starting to become a woman. And that's difficult because I don't even know what that looks like. And this is scary. And now I'm hearing a lot of these messages of, like, it's not okay to be a girl. So I'm sure you all know where this is going if you've seen this campaign, but always ran a campaign that was like, very, very specific on this one topic of like a girl. So they had all of these really interesting. They ran one specific video where they brought in a bunch of younger, like, girl. I don't know, just like, people, random people off the Internet, off the street. And these girls were coming in and they asked them, can you show us what it looks like to throw like a girl, to run like a girl, to, like, talk like a girl. And it was interesting to see the differences between how those younger kids saw it compared to a teenager, compared to, like an adult. And as you grew up, you noticed that more and more this, like a girl started to become a lot more feminine and almost weak. So, like, the teenage women, teenage girls would say throwing like, a girl looks very weak.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like really floppy kind of hand gestures. Right. That's not what happened when you were younger than about 11 though. Before then, all of these, like, girls were throwing like a human.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, was it boy or girl? Like, anyway, now I take this long winded answer to tell you this because always found one specific cultural trend that was happening. The cultural trend that was happening was I don't like the way my body is progressing as a human. And I'm also hearing a societal pressure of being a girl is not okay. They took that piece and they injected it into a campaign that said there's nothing wrong with being a girl. In fact, you're probably stronger because of this. Right. Like, as you grow up and become a better person and a different human, you're just going to get better and better. Your person is going to grow. You're going to be a cool human no matter what gender you are. Right. Long with it. For you guys currently in the culture now, this is pretty topic, so, like, do with it what you will. It's not okay to be a guy, not okay to be a male. It's not okay to be masculine, to care for your families, to really double down on what makes you a cool human, which is you were born this specific way and you believe this specific part about yourself not okay to be male right now. And I find that really interesting because we flipped for a long time. It was not okay to be a girl right now. It's not okay to be a guy or want to be that version of yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now take that for what you will. It's very difficult to get into that without becoming a little bit political. So that's why I'm like, you got to be very careful when you use these type of things. But that's a big thread that's very sensitive and very poignant for guys at this point in time.

[A]

Yeah, we've actually had some great talks a couple years ago, this guy named Joe Reynolds, he's on to Twitter, but like, we were talking about through the lens of fatherhood at the time. And he was like, well, he has boys. And he's like, what does it mean to raise a masculine, strong man in 2025? And it's like, well, depends on who you ask.

[B]

But so true.

[A]

Yeah. And like, I think we have. I think we've done a good job of hitting on, like, what makes men feel beat down, what they've sacrificed, what they've endured. We've done a Great job of hitting on. Like, women should show their appreciation for their man. But to me, though, that's almost all defensive and reactive.

[B]

Defensive marketing. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Where it's like, well, what does it mean to just be a man?

[B]

Like, yes, that's offensive marketing. Yeah.

[A]

Great. I'm gonna go talk to Chad about that for half an hour and then come back.

[B]

So again and again, this happens in every industry. Every industry, every single culture. Doesn't matter where you are in the world. There's something societal that's being told to people that they can hear all the time. It's very underneath the surface, very subconscious, but it's there for men right now. And the only reason I know this is because I've talked to so many male brands, male focus brands right now. Every single one of them keeps saying the same thing, which is like, we feel like we're not being heard. Like, my opinion doesn't matter because I'm a guy. Like, I feel very much, like, forgotten, ignored in the corner. Like, you just go sit over there and we'll talk to you when we feel like it. And I'm like, this is the toughest part about societies is we swing. We just swing and swing and swing.

[A]

There's an over correction for sure.

[B]

Over correction. Yeah. We're trying really hard to figure out where do. Where does everyone fit in society? So I think we tend to lean towards one person and then we lean towards another, depending on how much support that person needs. We're trying to correct as a society, but that takes decades. Yeah, it takes a long time. So add the brand. Be very, very sensitive to these cultural things. Take a look and see what's the underlying thread that people are hearing across the board. And if you want to address it, please do it with empathy. Do not go after this hard and just be like, you need to be a guy.

[A]

And like, are you tired of the woke liberal mob telling you you're toxic masculine? Like, that's my next app.

[B]

Please don't do that unless you really, really want to cut some people off at this with, like, a very, very sensitive, very, like, caring. We're just gonna provide support of, like, we see that this is happening, and as a brand, we want to support the people who need it the most at this point. That not the most, but, like, who need support. Anybody who needs support deserves to get. Okay, I get off my horse. All right. Anything else you want to add? But it's got deep. This guy.

[A]

This ended up being a good episode. You should ask me what's going Wrong more often.

[B]

I was trying really hard to think of something, and I was like, all right, this is what we're gonna. This is what we're gonna go on today. Because Sarah doesn't have any other ideas. But I love these deep conversations. They always go. Stick them up.

[A]

Yeah. Producer Scott is telling us to wrap it up. He forgot we rambled for six minutes at the beginning about nothing. That should make it into this episode.

[B]

I'm gonna say you should just cut that out, and we'll get it down to 20. That's long. Okay. Where can people find you? They want to follow your journey.

[A]

If you guys want to see me more and watch all the tweets that Sarah's getting mad about, let me address the other ROET screenshot tweet, by the way.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It was a glitch saying our romance was up 1,000%. And I said, yeah, it must, because I just put spurs on my boots. I'm joking around. I'm not serious. I'm not like one of these marketing gurus out here that takes any of this seriously. Okay? I just want to golf, and, like.

[B]

I just want to go provide for.

[A]

My family, and that's it. I don't care about any of them. So there. I'm not even going to tell you my Twitter handle. Figure it out.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Don't link it in the show notes.

[B]

I'm gonna make you feel broke for it. All right, go follow Nate. If you can find him anywhere, follow me everywhere. You can see content. Yeah. And if you guys want to learn more about applying psychology to your ads, to your brands, to all of your ecosystem that you're currently trying to build. If you want to learn how to do this in an empathetic and ethical way, that being most key part on there, please come join us, Tether Insights. Or you can check out the school. Like I said, sk o l.com backslash tether lab. Yeah, that's where we're actually learning how to apply all these things. We got a lot of cool marketers in there who are currently training themselves to be much, much better, I think, at applying. Wow. What makes us humans two brands? Thanks for the show today. This is great. Brain Driven Brands is part of the Learn and Laugh series on the Quickfire podcast network and is presented by Tether Insights. For more information, go to tetherinsights IO.