Podcast Summary: Brain Driven Brands
Episode: You’re Not the Hero: Big Brand Truths Small Brands Hate Hearing
Host: Sarah Levinger
Guest: Will Leach (Author, Behavioral Scientist, Mindstate Group)
Date: November 13, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Sarah Levinger welcomes Will Leach—her longtime mentor and author of Marketing to Mindstates—to break down the neuromarketing strategies used by some of the world’s largest brands (like PepsiCo, Spotify, and True Classic). Together with recurring co-host Nate, they discuss how any e-commerce brand—no matter its size—can leverage behavioral science to drive sales, increase perceived value, and create lasting customer loyalty. The big theme: brands must recognize that their customers are the heroes of the story, not the brands themselves.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Will Leach’s Journey into Neuromarketing
[01:50 - 04:00]
- Will’s background is in economics and analytics, not psychology.
- Fell into behavioral science at PepsiCo when tasked with running a neurological and behavioral lab, sparking a passion for understanding decision-making from a scientifically rigorous perspective.
- Founded Mindstate Group to help brands apply these findings to real marketing problems.
Memorable Quote:
“The more I read, the more I realized that the way we were looking at marketing was absolutely wrong. It had to be by science perspective, like from a biology perspective.”
—Will Leach [03:25]
2. The True Purpose of Brands: Goal Theory & Aspirational Value
[05:23 - 07:21]
- Most brands focus on product features or personas but miss the deeper “why”—the customer’s goal.
- The hierarchy of customer goals:
- Functional goals (utility, taste, value)
- Emotional/higher-order goals (how it feels to achieve the functional outcome)
- Aspirational goals (“Who do I want to become?”)
- The most powerful brands position themselves as tools to help customers become their best selves.
Memorable Quote:
“All people care about at the subconscious level is: Will this thing help me become my aspirational self?”
—Will Leach [07:09]
3. Big Brands vs. Small Brands: Current Challenges
[08:01 - 11:03]
- Big brands (like Doritos, Pepsi) can no longer just raise prices or shrink product sizes—customers have caught on.
- There's increasing pressure for marketing to directly drive revenue, not just pump up brand awareness or win awards.
- The era of “brand for brand’s sake” is over; emotional and value-driven marketing is more crucial than ever.
Memorable Quote:
“They’re being held accountable to that ad—must drive. Just don’t worry about penetration, don’t worry about velocities. I need to know the dollar amount that ad gives me, and I think a lot of that came from you guys [smaller brands]. We never had to do it. You guys have to do all the time.”
—Will Leach [10:33]
4. Value Sensitivity, Not Just Price Sensitivity
[11:03 - 15:43]
- American consumers are not simply “price sensitive”—they’re value sensitive.
- Messaging should shift from “save a dollar” (cautious, prevention) to “get more” (optimistic, approach).
- Language tweaks alone can increase engagement and results by 5–10%.
Memorable Quote:
“They don’t want to save money. They want more for their dollar.”
—Will Leach [15:43]
5. The Power of Anchoring: How Brands Create Value Context
[17:44 - 21:11]
- Brands should carefully select what they anchor themselves to in a customer’s mind.
- Example: DiGiorno “rises above” cheap frozen pizza by anchoring against the price of delivery pizza, making its $7 price look like a bargain.
- The right anchor (“compare us to X, not Y”) can double perceived value instantly.
Memorable Quote:
“Don’t compare me to what I’m right next to in the freezer. Compare me to a hot pizza you have to have delivered... They’re able to extract a massive amount of economic outcome.”
—Will Leach [19:00]
6. Tribalism, Outgroups, and Category Anchoring
[21:11 - 22:40]
- Tribalism and identity are powerful—I buy a product not just for features, but for what group it says I belong (or don’t belong) to.
- Smart brands create an “outgroup”—e.g., a watch brand that says, “If you have to buy a Rolex for self-esteem, you’re not our kind of buyer.”
Memorable Quote:
“[They] create an out group, and I don't want to be like them.”
—Will Leach [21:59]
7. Fluidity of Consumer Motivation
[22:40 - 25:10]
- Customer “profiles” are more dynamic than most marketers admit—people will spend lavishly in some categories, be cheap in others.
- Life stage, timing, and context matter. Buying behavior shifts by day (e.g., buying diet products Friday vs. Monday) or mood.
- Brands need to be situationally aware in both messaging and targeting.
Memorable Moment:
“I’m a different person on a Friday after a long, hard week than I am on a Monday. So these small little things...”
—Will Leach [24:46]
8. The AI Future: Why Brand Power Will Matter More
[25:33 - 27:09]
- With AI shopping agents on the horizon, personal relevancy and brand salience become survival requirements.
- If a bot cannot recognize your brand as valuable to the consumer, you’ll disappear from purchasing consideration.
9. Competing with Category Captains: Find the Overlooked Motivation
[27:12 - 31:49]
- When you’re not the category leader (e.g., Pepsi vs. Coke), don’t try to beat their main “motivation” (like “nurturance” for Coke).
- Instead, find a secondary motivation that’s still deeply relevant (e.g., “belonging” or “empowerment”), and build your position around it.
Memorable Quote:
“Look for that secondary motivation that you can kind of build your brand around... You’ll establish a little different connection in the mind which will help you stand out and then own that space.”
—Will Leach [31:49]
10. The Big Brand Truth: You Are Not the Hero
[33:11 - 34:11]
- Brands overestimate their importance in peoples’ lives.
- The customer is always the hero—brands are just the “utility belt,” a tool for self-actualization.
Memorable Quote:
"Your customer is Batman. You are the utility belt... I am the hero of my own life."
—Will Leach [33:27]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Will Leach’s Origin Story: [01:50 – 04:04]
- Why Customers Really Buy—Goal Theory: [05:23 – 07:21]
- Big vs. Small Brand Marketing Approaches: [08:01 – 11:08]
- Value vs. Price Sensitivity: [11:03 – 15:43]
- Anchoring Perceived Value: [17:44 – 21:11]
- Group Belonging and Outgroups: [21:11 – 22:40]
- Dynamism in Customer Motivation: [22:40 – 25:10]
- AI and Brand Survival: [25:33 – 27:09]
- How to Compete with Category Captains: [27:12 – 31:49]
- The "Utility Belt" Analogy (Main Takeaway): [33:11 – 34:11]
Notable Quotes
“All people care about at the subconscious level is, will this thing help me become my aspirational self?” —Will Leach [07:09]
“They don’t want to save money. They want more for their dollar.” —Will Leach [15:43]
“Don’t compare me to what I’m right next to in the freezer. Compare me to a hot pizza you have to have delivered.” —Will Leach [19:00]
“Your customer is Batman. You are the utility belt... I am the hero of my own life.” —Will Leach [33:27]
Tone & Atmosphere
- Conversational and witty, with playful banter about "pyramid schemes," Land Rovers, and whiskey preferences, keeping advanced concepts accessible.
- Candid and honest, as industry veteran Will Leach demystifies top-tier brand thinking and even pokes fun at sacred cows.
- Actionable, with the hosts and guest sharing concrete messaging, anchoring, and segmentation tactics.
Actionable Takeaways for Listeners
- Always start by identifying the customer’s core and aspirational goals—not just functional ones.
- Focus messaging on delivering value (“get more”) rather than just “saving money.”
- Carefully select your anchor. Don’t just compete on features; change the frame of reference.
- Recognize the fluid, inconsistent nature of buyers. Timing, life stage, mood, and context all matter.
- If you can’t be the #1 brand for the main motivation in your category, own a related secondary motivation.
- Above all: Your brand is the utility belt, not the hero. Help customers become heroes in their own story.
Where to Learn More
- Will Leach: mindstategroup.com, LinkedIn, and his book Marketing to Mindstates
- Host Sarah Levinger: Various platforms, search “Sarah Levinger”