Are birds dinosaurs?

Summary

Brains On! Science Podcast for Kids – Episode Summary: "Are Birds Dinosaurs?"

Introduction

In this engaging episode titled "Are Birds Dinosaurs?", Molly Bloom hosts Siddharth from Houston, Texas, to explore the intriguing evolutionary connection between birds and dinosaurs. The episode delves into how birds are descendants of theropod dinosaurs, the fossil evidence supporting this theory, and the survival of birds through the mass extinction that wiped out most dinosaur species.

Host Introductions & Personal Interests (04:28 - 05:49)

Molly introduces Siddharth, highlighting his deep interest in dinosaurs and birds. Siddharth shares his journey, sparked by a dinosaur book at age three and evolving into a passion for bird-watching at six.

Notable Quote:
Siddharth (04:52): "My favorite bird fact is that the fastest bird ever, the peregrine falcon, can actually reach a speed of up to 240 miles per hour in a dive. And I think that's really cool because that's faster than most cars now."

Birds as Living Dinosaurs (06:03 - 12:35)

The conversation begins with the revelation that birds are living dinosaurs, specifically descendants of theropods like T. Rex and velociraptors. Molly explains that scientists use fossils to trace this evolutionary lineage, highlighting the significance of feathered theropods in understanding bird evolution.

Notable Quote:
Molly Bloom (07:54): "In fact, the closest living relatives to a T. Rex are ostriches and chickens. That is wild, right?"

Fossil Evidence and Evolution (08:06 - 12:35)

Molly elaborates on how fossils are crucial in uncovering the connection between birds and dinosaurs. The discovery of Archaeopteryx in 1861, a bird-like dinosaur with feathers, was pivotal but initially met with skepticism. It wasn't until the 1990s, with numerous feathered dinosaur fossils found in China, that the bird-dinosaur link gained widespread acceptance.

Notable Quote:
Siddharth (10:21): "The dinosaur fossil had a small body, about the size of a raven. It also had wings, but not just any wings. Wings with feathers. This was the first discovery of a dinosaur with feathers."

Mass Extinction and Bird Survival (25:53 - 30:12)

The hosts discuss the mass extinction event 66 million years ago caused by an asteroid impact, which led to the demise of most dinosaurs. However, certain bird lineages survived. This survival is attributed to traits like high metabolic rates, efficient digestive systems, and rapid growth rates, which provided advantages in the post-impact environment.

Notable Quote:
Jingmai O'Connor (26:22): "Modern birds grow really fast... their high metabolic rates... complex and super efficient digestive systems that allow them to feed on things like detritus."

Recent Discoveries in Bird Fossils (30:12 - 32:42)

A groundbreaking discovery in China revealed new Jurassic bird fossils, Bahminornis and Furcula, which show advanced features similar to modern birds. This pushes the origin of birds further back into the Jurassic period, suggesting that more Jurassic bird fossils remain undiscovered, potentially reshaping our understanding of avian evolution.

Notable Quote:
Jingmai O'Connor (31:26): "The skeleton of these birds... has a lot of features that you also see in living birds. So this means that we can push the origin of birds back deeper into the Jurassic."

Listener Interactions and Games (12:35 - 25:34)

The episode features interactive segments where listeners submit questions and ideas about dinosaurs and birds. Questions such as "Why did dinosaurs evolve into birds?" and "How did birds survive when dinosaurs died?" are addressed, providing insightful answers based on scientific research.

A fun game segment titled "Guess that Relative" engages Molly and Siddharth in identifying unexpected animal relatives. For example, they learn that jellyfish are more closely related to corals than to any fish, and hippos are closer to whales than to rhinos.

Notable Quote:
Molly Bloom (22:39): "Oh, my gosh... you know, birds are more closely related to corals than there are to any fish."

Interview with Jingmai O'Connor (26:05 - 34:07)

Paleontologist Jingmai O'Connor from the Field Museum in Chicago provides expert insights into the bird-dinosaur connection. She explains that the common ancestor of all dinosaurs had traits similar to modern birds, such as being bipedal and possessing proto-feathers. Jingmai discusses how recent fossil discoveries, including the new Jurassic birds, provide deeper insights into avian evolution and the traits that enabled birds to survive the mass extinction event.

Notable Quote:
Jingmai O'Connor (31:26): "We can push the origin of birds back deeper into the Jurassic. This means we probably should be finding bird fossils that are 160, 165 million years old."

Conclusion (36:24 - 37:39)

Molly and Siddharth summarize the key points: birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs millions of years ago, supported by extensive fossil evidence. Birds' survival through the mass extinction is likely due to a combination of advantageous traits. The hosts emphasize that our understanding of dinosaurs continues to evolve with ongoing research and fossil discoveries.

Notable Quote:
Siddharth (36:28): "Our understanding of dinosaurs will probably change the more and more we study and learn about them."

Mystery Sound Reveal (38:04 - 39:18)

The episode concludes with the reveal of a previously featured mystery sound. Siddharth correctly guesses the sound of a van door closing, reaffirming his keen observational skills.

Notable Quote:
Siddharth (38:27): "Yes. I redeemed myself from last time."

Brains Honor Roll

The episode acknowledges numerous young listeners from around the world who contribute questions, ideas, and creative input, showcasing the podcast's community and encouraging continued participation.

---

This detailed summary captures all the essential discussions, insights, and conclusions from the "Are Birds Dinosaurs?" episode of Brains On!. It highlights the evolutionary link between birds and dinosaurs, the significance of fossil discoveries, and the interactive elements that engage young listeners. Notable quotes with timestamps provide key takeaways, ensuring the summary is informative and engaging for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Molly Bloom]

Today's episode is sponsored by Indeed. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. There's no need to wait and any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com brainson just go to Indeed.com brainson right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.combrainson terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.

[Siddharth]

You're listening to Brains On. We're serious about being curious.

[Julian]

Brains on is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation.

[Dominique]

Dominique, you've hardly packed at your corn. What's up, Daryl? I have big dreams of flying. The cooperation. There's just one problem. I'm scared. I'm not brave enough to chase after my dreams. Dominique, you can't chicken out now. But we are chickens. I mean, you gotta stand up for yourself. You gotta believe in yourself. How the dickens am I supposed to doodle doo that? Don't get your feathers in a rubble. Just listen to me, Dominique. I have something to tell you in song form. What good are wings if you don't spread them and fly? Life is too short to let your dreams pass by. Your chicken ancestors knew this to be true. They believed in themselves. And you can too. My chicken ancestors like Chicken Little. He thought the sky was falling and boy, was he wrong. Just think of all the generations before such avian excellence to adore. Like your great, great, great grand chicken. What a star. He was the presidential rooster for yeah. The new deal was all my great, great great grand chickens idea. And if you go back even farther just to flex, you are related to the mighty T Rex. It seems far fetched, but hold your confusion. Birds are just tiny dinos. Thanks, Evolution. Wait a sec. Chickens like us are basically dinosaurs. Yes, it took millions and millions of years to do. Those millions of years made me and you. We're all that came before us. You just got to believe because you're chicken greatness. My chicken greatness?

[Molly Bloom]

Yes.

[Dominique]

Our chicken greatness goes back centuries. You're right. Watch out, world. I'm gonna cross that road with my own two Chicken feet and I will get to the other side.

[Molly Bloom]

You're listening to Brains on for APM Studios. I'm your host, Molly Bloom. Brains on is a nonprofit public radio program, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support us. You can donate, become a smarty, pass subscriber, buy our merch, or come see us live. Head to brainson.org fans to show your support. Thank you. All right, today I'm super excited because Siddharth from Houston, Texas is back as our co host. Welcome, Siddharth.

[Siddharth]

Hi, Molly.

[Molly Bloom]

Today's episode is about two things that you love.

[Siddharth]

Dinosaurs and birds.

[Molly Bloom]

Right. Today we're going to talk all about how birds are like living dinosaurs. So, Darth, I know you're a longtime fan of dinosaurs, but you've also gotten more into birds recently. So what got you interested in dinosaurs and birds in the first place?

[Siddharth]

I first got interested into dinosaurs when I was like, I think maybe three or four. My mom got me a book and I read it and I really liked the illustration. Then I learned a lot from it. I think that's what sparked my interest for dinosaurs and my later interest for birds developed when I was around 6, where my mom got a little interested into birds and I just stole her books and started reading them. And then, yeah, I got a pair of binoculars. There is like a little guide in there. And then I just started bird watching a bit, and then it slowly developed, and now I'm like a really big bird watcher.

[Molly Bloom]

That is so cool. So what is your favorite bird fact you've learned since you started getting into birds?

[Siddharth]

Oh, that's tough. I think my favorite bird fact is that the fastest bird ever, the peregrine falcon, can actually reach a speed of up to 240 miles per hour in a dive. And I think that's really cool because that's faster than most cars now.

[Molly Bloom]

Yeah, that's very, very fast. That's incredible. So when you see a bird knowing that they're, you know, basically little dinosaurs, are you thinking about that when you're looking at birds, or are you kind of just enjoying birds for what they are?

[Siddharth]

I think often I'm often just enjoying the birds for what they are. But when I first learned that they're similar to dinosaurs, I always thought, oh, wow, that's so cool. Because when I was younger, I always thought that dinosaurs were just something way old and didn't exist anymore. But then when I learned that birds are technically living dinosaurs, I just saw them as like, oh, there's a dinosaur. And this was when I was like, around six.

[Molly Bloom]

That's so cool. So you've been bird watching. Is there a certain bird you've seen that was, like, really exciting to you that you got to spot?

[Siddharth]

I think one of the most exciting birds that I've seen was a bird called a whooping crane. I think it's one of the rarest birds. I've seen it in South Texas on a bird tour with a professor from Rice University. And I think now there are only a couple thousand individuals of this species left. And that small area of South Texas near Corpus Christi is one of the few areas where they live.

[Molly Bloom]

That is so cool. Are there some birds on your list that are sort of like, these are my dream birds that I really want to see someday in person?

[Siddharth]

Oh, yeah, a lot. There's some which I can technically find in and around Houston, but for some reason, even though I've been looking for about five years, I've just never seen one. One of them is like the painted bunting, which is a really beautiful, colorful little songbird.

[Molly Bloom]

That's really cool. I hope you spot one soon. We've had a lot of listeners curious about birds and dinosaurs, too.

[Julian]

My name is Julian, and my question is why did dinosaurs evolve into birds? Hi, my name is Archer. My question is, how did the birds survive when the dinosaurs died?

[Molly Bloom]

Thanks to Julian and Arjun for sending in your questions. So, yes, the birds we know and love, ostriches, pigeons, chickadees, parrots, and peacocks, they're all living dinosaurs.

[Siddharth]

In fact, the closest living relatives to a T. Rex are. Wait for it, ostriches and chickens. That is wild, right?

[Molly Bloom]

Scientists think that birds evolved from a special kind of dinosaur called a theropod. Theropods had two legs, and the group includes famous dinos like T. Rex and velociraptors.

[Siddharth]

But scientists think that the birds we know today descended from a group of much smaller theropods.

[Molly Bloom]

How do scientists know this? Because of fossils.

[Siddharth]

Fossils are evidence of prehistoric life.

[Molly Bloom]

We get fossils when remains of ancient living things like animal bones, teeth, or even plants are buried in rock, mud, or sand. Over time, all that stuff hardens up and becomes a fossil.

[Siddharth]

Sometimes fossils are like a mold of whatever object was left behind, like a bone or a tooth.

[Molly Bloom]

Other times, they're an impression, like a footprint, a leaf, or even a feather. Just like if you stuck your hand in some wet concrete and your handprint hardened up.

[Siddharth]

Today, people find these ancient fossils and use them as clues to learn about what happened in the past.

[Molly Bloom]

But when scientists first discovered dinosaur fossils in the late 1600s, they had no idea what they were looking at. They thought they were all sorts of things.

[Siddharth]

Ooh, look what I dug up.

[Molly Bloom]

Whoa.

[Dominique]

That bone is massive.

[Siddharth]

It has to be a giant's arm bone, don't you think?

[Molly Bloom]

No, no, no, no, no. That's a monster's left fibula if I've ever seen one.

[Dominique]

Trust me.

[Siddharth]

Oo, oo, oo, ooh.

[Molly Bloom]

New idea.

[Siddharth]

What if it's a dragon's tailbone? So people used to think dinosaur fossils were from giants or monsters.

[Molly Bloom]

As time went on and people found more and more fossils, they started to think that dinosaurs were just giant lizards that weren't around anymore.

[Siddharth]

Right. The word dinosaur literally means fearfully great lizard in Greek.

[Molly Bloom]

But our first clue that dinosaurs might actually be related to birds came in the mid-1800s.

[Siddharth]

Back then, people were still using horses and buggies to get around.

[Molly Bloom]

Trains were becoming more popular, too. Plus, some of the first zippers had just been invented.

[Siddharth]

And in 1861, a German paleontologist discovered a fossil of a bird. Like dinosaur, Paleontologists are people who study fossils.

[Molly Bloom]

The dinosaur fossil had a small body, about the size of a raven. It also had wings, but not just any wings. Wings with feathers. This was the first discovery of a dinosaur with feathers.

[Siddharth]

They called this new creature Archaeopteryx.

[Molly Bloom]

Even after this discovery, only a few scientists thought that birds and dinosaurs could be related.

[Siddharth]

Lots of paleontologists argued that Archaeopteryx was just a super old bird, not a dinosaur.

[Molly Bloom]

The majority of people still believed that dinosaurs could only be giant lizards and.

[Siddharth]

Reptiles until over 100 years later, in the 1990s.

[Molly Bloom]

The year was 1996. The kids show Arthur had just started airing on TV. The Spice Girls were taking over the radio and my heart.

[Siddharth]

And in China, scientists had made an exciting new discovery. They identified a bunch of dinosaur fossils with feathers.

[Molly Bloom]

These feathered fossils were different from Archaeopteryx because these dinosaurs didn't have wings, they didn't fly. They were just feathery dinos.

[Siddharth]

Up until that point, the only animals we knew of with feathers were birds. But these fossils definitely weren't birds.

[Molly Bloom]

So if long, long ago, there were ancient dinos with feathers, and then much later, we see similar feathers on birds, it makes sense to think that those two species are directly related.

[Siddharth]

Since then, paleontologists have found thousands of dinosaur fossils with feathers, which changed our.

[Molly Bloom]

Idea of what dinosaurs looked like. We used to think they were just big lizards, but now we understand that some dinos were more bird like.

[Siddharth]

And our idea of dinosaurs will probably keep changing.

[Molly Bloom]

That's right. Every time we find a new fossil or figure out something new about the past, we get a little more information about what dinosaurs were really like. It's like we're putting an ancient puzzle together piece by piece.

[Siddharth]

And the picture gets clearer and clearer with every new bit of evidence.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, Siddharth, we've tackled the dinosaur and bird mystery, but are you ready for a mystery for the ears? Because it's time for the.

[Siddharth]

Mystery.

[Molly Bloom]

So, Darth, are you ready to hear today's mystery sound?

[Siddharth]

Yeah.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, here it is. Hmm. What do you think?

[Siddharth]

Okay, so it's definitely outdoors. There's something mechanical with some sort of electrical motor. And it was outdoors. So maybe it was like a car door opening.

[Molly Bloom]

Yeah, it's tricky. Should we hear it again?

[Siddharth]

Yeah.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay. Okay.

[Siddharth]

Might actually be like the trunk of a car opening. Now that I think about it, that's.

[Molly Bloom]

A really good guess.

[Siddharth]

And somebody presses a button. Maybe I'm just too focused on this idea.

[Molly Bloom]

But no, I think it might be. That's a really good guess. I also have no idea what this is. I heard birds, so maybe it's the bird I hired to mow my lawn with their new electric lawnmower. I don't know. We'll hear it again. Get another chance to guess and hear the answer after the credits where we will find that Siddharth was probably right and I was most likely wrong. So, Siddharth, if you could bring a living, breathing dinosaur to show and tell at school, what kind would you bring and why?

[Siddharth]

Ooh, I'd probably bring a type of dinosaur called a Dryosaurus. I wouldn't bring any carnivorous dinosaur because it would probably either bite me or eat me. And probably not any large dinosaur because that would be hard. Drosaurus is like a five foot tall herbivorous dinosaur, which probably wasn't aggressive and was tame. So I just like to think of it as maybe it could be like a large dog. I love that.

[Molly Bloom]

A little dog dino buddy to bring to school that's as tall as me. I think that's really great. Well, we asked our listeners the same question and here's what they had to say.

[Julian]

If I could bring a dinosaur to school, I would bring an archaeopteryx because I could play hide and seek with it and make a fort under my desk. Hi, my name is Margo, and I would bring a gentle triceratops so that me and my friends could ride on it. While we were riding, we could put Our jackets on the triceratops horns. Hi, I'm Ajli. I live in Scarborough, Maine, and the dinosaur that I would bring to show and tell is a Scansoriopteryx, a small winged dinosaur so it could glide around the classroom. Hi, my name is Emmett and I will breed a blue T Rex to ride around faster on the playground. Mine is. My name is Toby and I live in Virginia and I want to bring a trood on because he could help me with my math test. My name is Grace and I would bring in a brontosaurus. I would bring in a brontosaurus so that at recess the kids could climb on its head and it would take them around the playground and they could also slide, slide down its back and tail.

[Siddharth]

Always bring back all of them because I like all dinosaurs.

[Molly Bloom]

Thanks to Ellie, Margo, Aisley, Emmett, Toby, Grace, and Finn for sending your classroom companion ideas. It's clear that our listeners love dinosaurs because we heard from so many of you. So we're going to play more of your dino Pal ideas at the end of the show. We love hearing from our listeners. It makes us so happy. If you want to send us something, go to brainzom.org contact while you're there, you can send us mystery sounds, drawings.

[Siddharth]

And questions like this one.

[Julian]

Hi, my name is Carly and I'm from Woodstock, Georgia. And my question is, would a poisonous snake die if it bit itself? Thank you.

[Molly Bloom]

You can find answers to questions like these on the Moment of Podcast, a short dose of facts and fun every weekday. Find Moment of and [e-mail] and keep listening. Brains on Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Brainzon, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.

[Dominique]

It's Alien Exercise Hour.

[Molly Bloom]

Hi Yah ho ha.

[Dominique]

While I storage my snoodles and bounce.

[Molly Bloom]

On my trampolini, I'll listen to a new podcast. I'm going to try smashboom Best, the.

[Dominique]

Best debate podcast ever.

[Molly Bloom]

Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command. Drop the beat. Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed judge of smashboom Best, I'd like to start with a few rhymes. Ah, yo. Catch me in the rabbit hole. Dazzled by a magic show by the Z. Come back here. Podcast Must listen to smashboom Best.

[Siddharth]

Now.

[Molly Bloom]

Listen to Smash Boom. Best. Wherever you get your podcasts, today's episode is sponsored by Gab. As a parent, I get nervous when I think about introducing my kid to phones. The idea that one day she'll be a teen scrolling mindlessly on her phone for hours. I worry about what she'll see on there and how it will make her feel. But here's the good news. A company called Gab has solved this problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tech in Steps works by providing a kid safe phone and watch for every age and stage, basically the right device at the right time. Gab devices have no social media or Internet apps. For younger kids, they have a watch with GPS tracking and safe zones. For tweens, a starter phone with more features like monitored messaging and video calling, and finally for teenagers, an advanced phone with features like parent managed apps and a premium camera. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely. Use our code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Protecting your kids has never been easier. For the best deals, sign up to Gab today. No contract required at gab.com brainson that's Gab G-A-B B2B's.com brainson G A B B.com brainson Terms and conditions apply. Today's episode is sponsored by Greenlight. Who taught you about money? Was it your parents? Your school? Most of us learned about saving and budgeting way later than we should have. But here's the good news. You can give your kids a head start with Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families that lets kids learn how to save, invest and spend wisely. I love answering kids questions, but a lot of time the answer to kids questions is I don't know. And I don't know a lot when it comes to teaching kids about money. So that's why Greenlight is a super helpful tool and one that I'm glad to have. Greenlight is the easy, convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and families to navigate life together. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on kids spending and saving. Start your risk free Greenlight trial [e-mail] brainson that's greenlight.com brainson to get started. Greenlight.com brainson brainson.

[Siddharth]

You're listening to Brains On. I'm Siddharth.

[Molly Bloom]

And I'm Molly.

[Siddharth]

Before the break, we talked about how birds are like living dinosaurs.

[Molly Bloom]

Birds first evolved from a group of dinosaurs called theropods millions of years ago. We know this because scientists have found lots of fossil evidence.

[Siddharth]

The dinosaur bird connection is just one example of unexpected distant relatives. The world is full of them.

[Molly Bloom]

Like how NSync's Lance Bass and Britney Spears are sixth cousins.

[Siddharth]

You're full of late 1990s pop music references today, aren't you, Molly? But I was thinking about how different animals are related, like through evolution.

[Molly Bloom]

When we say different animals are related, it's not like they're siblings or cousins. It's more like they have a distant animal relative in common. Wait a second. Siddharth, when did you change into an orange sequined blazer?

[Siddharth]

Oh, this.

[Molly Bloom]

And. Hey, is that my game show podium and old timey microphone?

[Siddharth]

Yes and yes. Testing, testing. One, two, three.

[Molly Bloom]

This can only mean one thing. It's game show Siddharth.

[Siddharth]

That's right.

[Molly Bloom]

Does that mean I get to be the contestant?

[Siddharth]

Correct contestant. Molly, I think it's time we play a little game of guess that relative. For this game, I'll name an animal and then list two possible relatives. You have to guess which relative is more closely related to that animal. So, for example, if I gave you the animal T. Rex, would you say it's more closely related to chickens or chameleons?

[Molly Bloom]

Chickens.

[Siddharth]

You got it. Okay, let's start. Your first animal is jellyfish. Do you think jellyfish are more closely related to blobfish or cor.

[Molly Bloom]

Ooh. Okay, I'm gonna guess blobfish because they're kind of blobby and jellyfish are kind of wiggly. Am I right?

[Siddharth]

That is actually incorrect. Jellyfish are, in fact, not fish. They're more closely related to coral than there are to any fish. They belong to the Cnidaria family. That includes coral and sea anemones.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, my gosh. You know what? That makes a lot of sense because we did a coral episode not too long ago, and I learned about coral polyps. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Wow, I should have.

[Siddharth]

I just listened to that one in the car.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, you did?

[Siddharth]

On the radio.

[Molly Bloom]

I really should have, really should have thought about that. Yeah, because baby jellyfish are also called polyps, you guys. Okay, okay, I get it. I get it. I'm ready. I'm ready for the next one.

[Siddharth]

Okay, let's talk horseshoe crabs. Do you think they're more closely related to spiders or lobsters?

[Molly Bloom]

Horseshoe crabs.

[Siddharth]

Oh, man.

[Molly Bloom]

I feel like these are extra tricky. Lobsters have shells. Horseshoe crabs have shells. Oh, man. Okay, I gotta say lobsters.

[Siddharth]

The correct answer is, in fact, spiders.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, my God.

[Siddharth]

Despite their name, horseshoe crabs aren't really? Crabs? They're more like spiders or scorpions. They're, in fact, one of the oldest living animals. Ready for another one?

[Molly Bloom]

Yes. And I'm realizing it's much harder to be a contestant on a game show. Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready.

[Siddharth]

All right, this one is about your favorite animal, sloth. Do you think sloths are more closely related to koalas or anteaters?

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, I better get this right for the sloths. I talk about them a lot. Okay. Come on. Okay, I'm going to say anteaters.

[Siddharth]

That is actually correct.

[Molly Bloom]

Yay. I love that you're surprised that I got it right.

[Siddharth]

Even though koalas like to chill out and hang out in trees, they're not actually as closely related to sloths as anteaters.

[Molly Bloom]

Thank goodness I got that right, or else I would not be able to say sloths are my favorite animal anymore. What a relief.

[Siddharth]

Okay, your final animal is the great hippopotamus. Do you think hippos are more closely related to rhinos or to whales?

[Molly Bloom]

Hippos. Rhinos or whales? Okay. Hippos like to be in the water. So do whales. I've never seen a wet rhinoceros, so I'm gonna go with whale.

[Siddharth]

You're correct.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, my gosh.

[Siddharth]

Hippos are actually whale's closest living relative. They share a common ancestor that lived about 55 million years ago that probably lived on land. Nice work, Molly.

[Molly Bloom]

Started off weak, but I gained steam towards the end. What do I win?

[Siddharth]

Glory.

[Molly Bloom]

Huh? Okay. Great job. Game show. Siddharth, that was excellent work.

[Siddharth]

That's all for Guess that Relative.

[Molly Bloom]

So far, we've talked about how birds evolved from ancient dinosaurs.

[Siddharth]

We know this based on fossils we found of dinosaurs with feathers.

[Molly Bloom]

We also know that dinosaurs were wiped out about 66 million years ago when a giant asteroid hit Earth.

[Siddharth]

This asteroid caused around 75% of Earth's animals to die out.

[Molly Bloom]

So if birds are living dinosaurs, why is it that birds survived the mass extinction but dinosaurs didn't?

[Siddharth]

To learn more, we talked to paleontologist Jingmai O'Connor.

[Molly Bloom]

She's the associate curator of fossil reptiles at the Field Museum in Chicago, and she studies how birds evolved from dinos. Hi, Jing Mei.

[Jingmai O'Connor]

Hi, Molly. Hi, Siddharth. Thank you so much for having me.

[Siddharth]

We've got some questions for you, Jingmai. First up, how are birds and dinosaurs similar? What are their differences?

[Jingmai O'Connor]

Okay, so this is kind of a tough question, because when we think of dinosaurs, it is this incredibly diverse group. There are so many different types of Dinosaurs. Right. So for example, if you compare Stegosaurus to a bird, they might not seem that similar. So what you have to do is go back to the ancestral dinosaur, the common ancestor of all dinosaurs, both alive today and extinct. So that animal was small, bipedal, warm blooded and covered in skin projections that we call proto feathers. So those are all things that are very similar to birds today, except feathers evolved into very complex structures in birds. Now what are the differences? Well, one of the biggest differences is that birds can fly, but actually this does not separate birds from all non bird dinosaurs. There were also other groups of dinosaurs that also evolved to be able to fly. So evolution is so complex, which makes it really difficult for us to provide simple answers to these questions.

[Siddharth]

Did birds and dinosaurs live at the same time and if so, what time?

[Jingmai O'Connor]

Absolutely. So the oldest dinosaurs appear in the Triassic and they're about 235 million years old. The oldest birds that we know of are about 150, 155 million years. So from 155 million years ago to 66 million years ago, you have birds and non bird dinosaurs coexisting. And then after the end, Cretaceous mass extinction, the most famous mass extinction caused by this giant meteor impact, then you only have bird dinosaurs going forward.

[Siddharth]

How did birds survive the meteor impact when all the dinosaurs went extinct?

[Jingmai O'Connor]

This is a very good question and one that I'm actually hoping to be able to provide an answer to with my own research. The short answer is we don't really know. Now one thing that's important to remember is that while yes, birds survive this mass extinction, but not all birds survive. There were lots of lineages of Cretaceous birds that also go extinct alongside non bird dinosaurs. So what made the one lineage of birds that did survive different from other dinosaurs that allowed them to survive through this environmental disaster? There are several possibilities. So for example, modern birds grow really fast. So for example, have you ever seen a baby pigeon? That's because pigeons stay in the nest and grow to adult size in about three weeks and then they fly off. So you just never really see them as babies because they grow so quickly. So this means that if you can grow quickly, you spend a short shorter period of time where you're vulnerable and you rely on your parents and you aren't as good as taking care of yourself. So if you can grow quickly, that's something that's advantageous. Also, birds have very high metabolic rates, so that may have allowed them to survive when it got cold. Birds also have really complex and super efficient digestive Systems that allow them to feed on things like detritus. So basically that's like during this mass extinction, you have an impact winter. So the sun is blocked out, which means the plants die. That means the animals that eat the plants die and the animals that eat the animals that eat the plants die. Right. But if you can eat things that, for example, seeds from trees that are, you know, were from years before, if you can eat that kind of detritus, then maybe that was an advantage that helped birds survive through this mass extinction. There are so many different reasons that we think, you know, maybe allowed this one lineage of birds to survive. It's probably a combination of all these factors. But again, like I said, sorry for that long answer. We don't really know.

[Siddharth]

Oh, that's really cool. I actually didn't know that. What are we still learning about the connection between birds and dinosaurs?

[Jingmai O'Connor]

So we know that birds are living dinosaurs, but we don't know which group of non bird dinosaurs birds are most closely related to. So there are a bunch of different hypotheses. Hypothesis this is an interpretation of evidence that you seek to test by collecting more data. I personally hypothesize that birds are a lineage, a branch of living troodontid dinosaurs. How cool is that? But we're really not sure about this. We still need more fossils to help us better understand the relationship between birds and the dinosaurs most closely related to them. The problem is there's a lot of homoplasy. And homoplasy basically means that you have similar features evolving over and over again independently. So like I mentioned, we have more than one group of flying dinosaurs. They're all the dinosaurs that are closely related to birds. So even though they evolve flight separately, they're evolving similar features because they're trying to solve the similar problem of being able to fly.

[Siddharth]

Wow, that's really interesting. Scientists actually recently discovered another ancient bird fossil in China. What do you think of this new discovery and can you tell us more about why scientists are so excited about this new bird fossil?

[Jingmai O'Connor]

We totally are so excited about this new bird fossil and it was discovered by a friend of mine, Dr. Wong Min. So I just can't say how proud I am of him. So the reason this is so exciting is because I know you guys talked about Archaeopteryx earlier and you talked about how it was described in 1861. So for 163 years, Archaeopteryx was the only bird we knew of from the Jurassic. It was the oldest fossil bird and the only bird from that period. And now finally, 163 years later, we have another Jurassic bird, Bahminornis, and actually also that Furcula that they described in the same paper. So two new Jurassic birds. Now what's really, really exciting about this discovery is that if you look at the skeleton of these birds, it's very advanced. You see a lot of features that you also see in living birds. So this means that we can push the origin of birds back deeper into the Jurassic. This means we probably should be finding bird fossils that are, I don't know, like 160, 165 million years old. It's hard to say, but it definitely means there should be way more Jurassic bird fossils out there to find.

[Siddharth]

Oh, wow. That's a really big discovery.

[Molly Bloom]

I'm just curious as like someone who thinks about this a lot, like when you see birds flying around, hanging outside your house, what do you think about them? Dinosaur.

[Jingmai O'Connor]

I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean, okay, like, I'm gonna be completely honest that before I started studying birds, I paid very little attention to them. And now that I study them, I find them so fascinating and I just can't believe that I, that I paid them so little heed before. And I think this is just an important message for everyone that, you know, until we start noticing something and paying attention to something and learning about it, we really can't value it. Right. And so by studying birds and learning about just how fascinating they are, I've come to really appreciate them. And I also start to think, you know, like, look at bird like characteristics and then kind of imagine theropod dinosaurs closely related to birds, having similar characteristics. Like, have you seen how fast birds move? You know, when they move their heads in these like incredibly fast jerky way? So, you know, you can start to imagine dinosaurs having some similar movements, styles, some similar behaviors. And I think, I mean, I think it helps us to bring dinosaurs to life. For everyone who loves dinosaurs, you gotta love, you gotta love the living dinosaurs, you gotta appreciate birds and see what they can teach us about the dinosaurs that are now extinct.

[Molly Bloom]

So awesome. Incredible.

[Siddharth]

Thanks for answering our questions, Jingmai.

[Jingmai O'Connor]

It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that you want to learn about dinosaurs.

[Molly Bloom]

Now because there's no such thing as too many dinosaurs in a classroom. Or maybe there is. Lots of them are pretty big. But anyway, here are more of your ideas about which dinos you'd like to show off at school.

[Julian]

Hi, my name is Sophia and I'm from North Glen College, Colorado. And the dinosaur that I would bring back for show and tell would be a Stegosaurus because they only eat plants and they are really pretty. My name's Ethan from Houston, Texas, and I'll bring the Mosasaurus to show and tell because it's the protector of the seas. Hey, my name's shepherd and I want to bring a raptor to show and tell because you can put a saddle on it and you can hop on it really easily and you can also go really fast. Fun fact. Do you know raptors? Only the size of a poodle. Hi, my name is Iris. I'm from Memphis, Tennessee. I would bring a Diplodocus to school because me and my friends could mess around saying its name. For example, I like to say Diplodocus and we could slide down its neck and it wouldn't eat us because it is a herbivore. I am Caroline from Kaysville, Utah. I would bring a baby Apatosaurus because that has been one of my favorite dinosaurs since I was little. I'm Ian from Minnesota, and I would bring a brontosaurus to show and tell because I could ride on its neck like a slide. And if I were on its head, it could sway its head back and forth so it would act kind of like a swing.

[Molly Bloom]

Thanks to Sophia, Ethan Shepard, Iris, Caroline and Ian for sending in those awesome ideas. The birds we know today evolved from a certain type of dinosaur called theropods millions and millions of years ago.

[Siddharth]

We know that birds are related to dinosaurs. Dinosaurs because of fossils, scientists think birds.

[Molly Bloom]

Survived the mass extinction because they evolved to be smaller, fly and had beaks.

[Siddharth]

Our understanding of dinosaurs will probably change the more and more we study and learn about them.

[Molly Bloom]

That's it for this episode of Brainzong.

[Siddharth]

This episode was written by Ruby Guthrie.

[Molly Bloom]

It was edited by Shaila Farzan and Sandon Totten. We had engineering help from Alex Simon and Shannon Harrison with sound design by Rachel Breese and fact checking by Rebecca Rand. Original theme music by Mark Sanchez.

[Siddharth]

We had production help from the rest of the Brains on Universe team.

[Molly Bloom]

Molly Bloom, Rosie Dupont, Anna Goldfield, Nico Gonzalez Whistler, Lauren Humpert, Joshua Ray, Mark Sanchez, Charlotte Traver, Anna Wegel and Aron Woldeselassi. Beth Pearlman is our executive producer and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandrakavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to Vasudha Bharadwach.

[Siddharth]

Brainson is a nonprofit public radio program.

[Molly Bloom]

There are lots of ways to support the show. Subscribe to Brains on Universe on YouTube where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes. Or head to brainzone.org while you're there.

[Siddharth]

You can send us your mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.

[Molly Bloom]

Okay, Siddharth, are you ready to hear the mystery sound again?

[Siddharth]

Yep.

[Molly Bloom]

Come on. Here it is. Any new thoughts? Before you thought a trunk or a door on a car, which seems like a really good guess to me. Do you have any other thoughts? You want to stick with it?

[Siddharth]

What do you think I heard, like, a gas motor turning on. I didn't know if that. I don't know if I heard that, but it sounded like, almost like a dirt bike or a motorcycle in the background. I also heard, like, something being, like, moved around and, like, colliding with metal or whatever. But I still think I'm gonna stay my guess. Like, either like a fancy door of a car being opened or like a trunk being opened.

[Molly Bloom]

Mm. I like your guess. I'm gonna say a bird on a dirt bike. Cause I heard a bird.

[Siddharth]

Amazing guess.

[Molly Bloom]

And you thought dirt. Yeah. Okay, let's see if either of us are right.

[Julian]

My name is Milo, and that was the sound of me closing my van door.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh. Oh, my gosh, Siddharth, you got that 100% correct.

[Siddharth]

Yes. I redeemed myself from last time. Last time, I had, like, the most horrible guess.

[Molly Bloom]

Oh, my gosh. All of that training you've been doing has really paid off. Incredible work. Wow. You're a game show host and a successful mystery sound guesser. This is an exciting day.

[Siddharth]

Thank you.

[Molly Bloom]

Now it's time for the brains honor roll. These are the incredible kids who keep the show going with their questions, ideas, mystery sounds, drawings, and high fives. Ciali from Nuku, Alofa, Tonga. Isabelle from Stockholm, Sweden. Josiah from Charlotte, North Carolina. Leon from Auckland, New Zealand. Landon from Hastings, Minnesota. Fox from Portland, Oregon. Theo from Brooklyn, New York. Warren from Buckley, Washington. AJ from Wisconsin. Dylan from California. Hazel and Alex from Port Hope, Ontario. Gemma and Esme from Merced, California. Noah from Santa Rosa, California. Charlie from California. Elias. Miles and Riley from Vancouver, British Columbia. Eli from Santa Clara, California. Demetrius from Burgh Hill, Ohio. Eli from San Francisco. Leo from Sydney, Australia. Ni from Da Nang, Vietnam. Odette from Edmonton, Alberta. Ben from Durham, North Carolina. Isla from Cornwall, England. Eleanor from Madeira, Ohio. Frankie from Kansas City. Emory from Kensington, Maryland. Annalee from Wolf Point, Montana. Henry and Leo from Yadkinville, North Carolina. Micah From Logan Township, N.J. skyler from Austin, Texas. Eli from Chicago. Winnie from Grass Valley, California. Bryce from Firestone, Colorado. Elliot from Seattle. Max from New York City. Etta From Chevy, Chase, MD Eleanor from Newport, KY Dorothy from Fridley, MN Roslyn and Lena from Scottsdale, Arizona Edward from Bridgewater, Virginia Grace from Houston, Texas Gray and Eloise from Toronto Sienna from Gilderland, New York Eliza from Charlotte, North Carolina Jenna from Lawrence, Kansas Jamison from Ladera Ranch, California Asher from San Pedro, California Otis and Penn from Toronto Emma and Sage from Jacksonville, Florida Audrey and Indian from Brisbane, Australia Juliana from Fort Thomas, Kentucky Brooklyn from Pittsburgh Kabir from San Francisco Whit from Houston Oliver from Wellesley, Massachusetts Ella from Louisville, Miles from Portland, Oregon Brooke from Oakmont, Pennsylvania Layla from Alisa Viejo, California Edie and Elliott from Bangor, Northern Ireland Shannon from Short Hills, New Jersey and William from Aurora, Ontario.

[Siddharth]

Brains uncle.

[Molly Bloom]

We'Ll be back next week with an episode all about band aids, bruises and scars.

[Siddharth]

Thanks for listening.