ANA’s Bob Liodice on Media Transparency, AI, and the Future of Marketing

Summary

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BRAVE COMMERCE: ANA’s Bob Liodice on Media Transparency, AI, and the Future of Marketing

Podcast by Adweek | Aired: June 2, 2026
Guests:

• Bob Liodice (CEO, Association of National Advertisers - ANA)
• Rachel Tipograph (MikMak Founder & CEO, Co-host)
• Sarah Hofstetter (Profitero President, Co-host)

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Episode Overview

In this lively conversation, Rachel Tipograph and Sarah Hofstetter welcome marketing industry veteran Bob Liodice for a candid discussion about the persistent challenges and emerging opportunities facing marketers today. Liodice reflects on his 31-year career at the ANA, gives a historical perspective on media transparency and collaboration, and looks to the future with thoughts on AI, the agency model, and the state of industry talent. The tone is forthright, practical, and optimistic, as the hosts and guest grapple with what stays the same even as everything changes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Unchanging Nature of Change in Marketing

[02:10 - 03:34]

• Sarah sets the stage by observing that in an industry defined by change, big brands tend to have consistent reactions—often slow or haphazard—whenever new technologies or consumer behaviors arise.
• Rachel notes ongoing shifts in her own work post-acquisition and emphasizes the necessity of “change management pants.”

Quote:

“The more things change, the more they stay the same.... In an industry where change is constant, we don't seem to know how to react to change.”
—Sarah Hofstetter [02:37]

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2. The Persistent Problem: Media Transparency

[04:58 - 07:01]

• Bob Liodice identifies transparency—especially in the digital media supply chain—as the marketing industry’s longest-running and current “number one issue.”
• He argues that without regulated or standardized information flows, marketers have only “half the information necessary” for good decisions, which diminishes brand—and thus, industry—health.
• The lack of transparency benefits no one long-term and leads to inefficiency.

Quote:

“Think about what marketers have to work with. They probably only have half the information that’s necessary to effectuate the best decisions... What a tragedy that is, because when brands win, everybody wins.”
—Bob Liodice [05:17]

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3. Industry Success Stories: When Openness Wins

[07:24 - 09:45]

• Bob highlights two major ANA-led interventions:
  • The K2/Media Transparency Report (2016): Forced industry recognition of hidden media rebates, leading to overhaul of media agency contracts.
  • Programmatic Media Transparency Reports: Found 25% waste in open web media spend, spotlighting “made for advertising” sites. Following exposure, marketers shifted spend and the problem dramatically decreased within months.
• These efforts show that when issues are brought to light, the industry can mobilize and make meaningful changes.

Quote:

“We can learn by essentially opening the curtains and finding out the man inside is just the man, as you Wizard of Oz fans well know.... You can click your ruby slippers and get to the place you need to be.”
—Bob Liodice [09:26]

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4. Artificial Intelligence: Threat or Salvation?

[11:06 - 15:26]

• AI is identified as a possible catalyst for industry transformation—but Bob cautions it can “both solve and accelerate” existing problems.
• He considers AI to be “a young adult,” still rapidly maturing, and ultimately believes it will be a net positive, especially for transparency.
• However, he notes marketing lags nearly all other industries in AI adoption.
• Full potential remains untapped—most applications are efficiency gains, not structural change.

Quotes:

“AI is transformational... its ability to assemble knowledge in a way understandable to us mortals, and to move to inherent understanding, is just remarkable.”
—Bob Liodice [11:41]

“AI has the ability to open up the drapes and the curtains and let the sunlight in. And we know that when you shine a light on the cockroaches, they all run for the corners.”
—Bob Liodice [14:06]

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5. Collaboration: Lost and to Be Regained

[15:33 - 17:41]

• Bob laments the loss of cross-industry collaboration, which was at a high from 2010–2018, resulting in major initiatives (e.g., Digital Advertising Alliance, Trustworthy Accountability Group).
• Pandemic disruptions and industry leadership changes led to a retreat to narrower, organizational priorities.
• He calls for an “industry summit” and new collaborative efforts, especially as AI and other challenges emerge.

Quote:

“We have let the golden age of collaboration pass us by.... It’s time for us to reunite and ensure that those things, which are both opportunities and deficiencies, we come together... and make better decisions for our entire industry.”
—Bob Liodice [15:44]

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6. Barriers to Progress: Pandemic Aftershocks and Structural Uncertainty

[17:41 - 22:46]

• The pandemic forced a shift to virtual engagement and a narrowing of focus within each organization.
• Despite ongoing partnership in specific areas, there’s been a lack of new, bold, industry-wide collaboration post-2018.
• Bob identifies today as possibly “the highest level of uncertainty” the industry has ever experienced—due to economic volatility, changing global conditions (e.g., tariffs), evolving DEI expectations, and AI-induced staff reductions.
• Above all, he sees talent development as a deep, persistent flaw: most companies underinvest in training, leaving marketers ill-equipped for a rapidly evolving landscape.

Quotes:

“I do think that we are probably at the highest level of uncertainty as an industry that we have ever been.”
—Bob Liodice [19:43]

“There are many in the industry... that say, 'oh, our most important asset is our people.' Yet how many really provide them the training and development [they need]?”
—Bob Liodice [22:04]

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7. The Bravest Thing: Rebuilding ANA from the Brink

[22:46 - 24:56]

• In response to the recurring “bravest thing” question, Bob recalls taking the ANA from a near-bankrupt, aimless organization to an industry leader.
• He credits a supportive board, a strong team, willingness to acquire other trade associations, and a relentless focus on relevance and service to members.

Quote:

“When I became CEO... we had only $28,000 in the bank... Our future had a limited shelf life if we continued on that path. We had to completely reinvent the ANA.... That was certainly no easy challenge and required a lot of courageous decisions.”
—Bob Liodice [22:56]

“When you’re in the abyss, stop digging.”
—Bob Liodice [25:01]

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Notable Quotes & Takeaways

• On change: “Change is tough, but literally, it's the name of the game here, don't you think?”
  —Rachel Tipograph [03:31]

• Transparency and collaboration are linchpins for industry health.

• AI is inevitable and will expose weaknesses—but marketing must catch up in adoption.

• Industry-wide trust and unity are needed more than ever to address mounting uncertainty.

• Urgent need for holistic talent development and future-proofing team skills.

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Key Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Topic | |----------|----------------------------------------------------| | 02:10 | Opening reflections on industry change | | 05:17 | The ongoing challenge of transparency | | 07:24 | Industry’s response to K2 & programmatic reports | | 11:06 | AI’s promise and perils for marketing | | 14:06 | AI and the “cockroaches” of hidden inefficiencies | | 15:33 | Why cross-industry collaboration faded | | 17:41 | Impact of pandemic and organizational silos | | 19:43 | Industry-wide uncertainty and talent gaps | | 22:46 | Bob’s bravest moment: Reinventing the ANA | | 25:01 | “When you’re in the abyss, stop digging.” |

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Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is open, insightful, and often humorous—replete with metaphors, industry metaphysics, and the wisdom of lived experience. In an era of unprecedented marketing transformation, Liodice’s optimism and clear-sightedness shine through: there are real problems to fix, but collaboration, transparency, and daring leadership can light the way forward.

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Transcript

[Bob Landes]

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[Bob Landes]

When brands win, everybody wins. Agencies to media companies to publishers to researchers to consultants to everybody. And that's in the overall marketing chain. When that effectiveness is truncated by parochial interests, we end up making decisions that are not well grounded and are probably detrimental to the health and wealth of the brand. And that basically short circuits our overall success. I just saw a report the other day which indicated that marketing has relatively one of the lowest deployments of AI among business and industry. So there's so much more room to grow.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Welcome to today's episode of Brave Commerce. I'm Sarah Hofstetter.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And I'm Rachel Tippograph. And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brands. Sarah, you lived through search, social, retail media, now the agentic transformation. When you look back at your epic career, what has stayed the same?

[Sarah Hofstetter]

What hasn't stayed the same is I've gotten much older. The way you just phrased that. Yikes. What's funny is the more things change, the more they stay the same. As it relates to the fact that every time there is something new, some new change in consumer behavior or some new technology, the big brands still seem to find the same. Either hide under the table until they think the moment's going to pass until they give up on it or the jump in, ready, fire, aim. But then they. They just forget the fact that the consumer is the most important part of this whole equation and everything else around it. Search, social, commerce, agentic, whatever it is. Those are just different mechanisms. And it's kind of funny to me how the reaction to things that are new for an industry where change is constant, we don't seem to know how to react to change.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Change is tough.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Change is tough, but literally, it's the name of the game here, don't you think?

[Rachel Tippograph]

100%. I mean, I'm just thinking about my weekend. I'm noticing a change in my own market dynamics at mcmac. And here I am post acquisition and I'm like, time to put on my change management pants. Because the world is changing and you can't rest on your laurels.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

I think when we look at people that have seen it all and done it all, someone who's certainly seen it all has been Bob Liodes, who is actually, after many years at the helm of the ana, retiring at the end of the year. So we thought it would be a good idea to bring him onto the show to think about, like, the more things change, what does stay the same, what doesn't. History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme. So what can we learn here?

[Rachel Tippograph]

Well, on that note, let's bring Bob onto the show.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Representing the world's biggest brands for, I don't know how long, longer than I can remember, is Bob Landes, the CEO of the ana. And for those of you who don't know what that is, that's the association of National Advertisers. Bob, I am so glad that you have agreed to join us. Thank you so much.

[Bob Landes]

My pleasure. And I've been around for years. Call it 31. I'm older than dust.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Oh, I got to tell you, one of the wonderful things that I love about being in this space is that while the pace of change is out of control, there are certain things that are just. They don't change.

[Bob Landes]

Right.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

But there are also things that as you've had this front row seat to the evolution of marketing, some things have gotten better and certain, certain things have changed and certain things have been different. But let's start with the negative and work our way into the positive. What's still as broken as it was 10, 15 years ago.

[Bob Landes]

Transparency. To me, it's always been the number one issue that we've had. And primarily, as it runs through media and through the Entire digital media supply chain. This is an industry that is very parochial and very proprietary and we are not really equipped to share and to play nicely. When you look at other industries that we'll call it either are highly regulated or highly standardized, information is forced to flow. And in that information flow, efficiencies and effectiveness come out of it. And yes, you have a guiding hand that says you must do this and you must do that, but there is very little equivocation, there's very little uncertainty in our industry. We have no such guiding body that it can in fact regulate the information and data flow which is so fundamental to effective marketing. Think about what marketers have to work with. They probably only have half the information that's necessary to effectuate the best decisions possible for their businesses and their brands. And what a tragedy that is because when brands win, everybody wins the money, the success flow to agencies, to media companies, to publishers, to researchers, to consultants, to everybody that's in the overall marketing chain. And when that effectiveness is truncated by parochial interests, we end up making decisions that are not well grounded and are probably detrimental to the health and wealth of the brand. And that basically short circuits our overall success.

[Rachel Tippograph]

I think we can all agree with you that no one wants to play nights with each other in this industry. But in the spirit of trying to be glass half full, you know, over the last 10 years, are there any stories that stand out to you around transparency, measurement or accountability where you really feel that the industry showed up as the best version of themselves?

[Bob Landes]

Yeah, I'll acknowledge two specific times. First, going back 10 years to the infamous Media Transparency Report, which was essentially commandeered by the ANA and we often call it the K2 report, which essentially did an expose on what we call media rebates, which was essentially non disclosed information where the marketers were not securing the rebates that were due to them by media buying and particularly at the agencies, we expose that issue. We essentially looked at the entire system and identified where things could get better from the marketer side. It was simply a matter of have you looked at your media agency contract recently and updated it at that point in time for the transformation that was taking place in the digital media supply chain? The answer was an unequivocal no. And that woke the industry up from a marketer standpoint of the fact that you just cannot let things of that import wallow in insignificance. They are in fact tremendously significant. And we rewrote the media agency contract, flash forward another seven years or so. When we took another crack at transparency and we issued two versions of our Programmatic Media Transparency Report. And the issue at that time was we did a heavy duty study that indicated that in the open web which was at the time about almost $90 billion about 25% waste existed. And at that stage we found that there were 16 areas of deficiency. Again a lot on the shoulders the marketers but blamed to be spread all around. But one of the highlights that just came out front and center were made for advertising sites where 15% of all programmatic media investments were going to and what a waste that was. And shortly after the report within six to nine months that number of 15% impressions bought was down to 1%. So we can learn by essentially opening the curtains and finding out that the man inside is just the man. As you wizard of Oz fans well know. And in fact you can click your ruby slippers and get to the place that you need to be.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

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[Sarah Hofstetter]

Fast forwarding we're now in the AI world and you and I have had a couple of conversations just this year about it and its implications. And obviously I'm doubling down on that. As we've discussed, in some cases AI can help solve a lot of the things we're talking about. In other cases it can obfuscate and accelerate existing problems. Can AI be a forcing function for better accountability? Or what's the bull? What's the bear?

[Bob Landes]

Yeah, AI is going to be both, but I think there's going to be more bull than bear. Over the course of time, let's give AI its due. It has essentially been effective for three plus years. And we need to recognize its infancy, but we also need to recognize that its ability to mature into adulthood is growing very rapidly. I would call it a young adult right now if I had to kind of characterize it, which is growing up at warp speed. AI is transformational. I don't think there is any way to debate it. But its ability to take knowledge and to assemble it in a way that is understandable by we mortal humans and to move to a place of inherent understanding that would never have happened or would have only happened by a lengthy evaluation period is just remarkable. And when you layer on what agentic AI is now becoming, we are seeing an incredible workforce that is at our fingertips that we have barely begun to scratch the surface with. And I do believe that AI is the key to the one issue which we just talked about, of transparency. Because when facts and information for the way we operate as an industry come into AI and come into full view, it will become apparent where the issues and business systems and fallible structures exist. We've not really poked and probed at it sufficiently yet to know where those potholes are. But once that comes about, it will be undeniable that the marketers will demand better. Because the way we are conditioning, I won't say we've succeeded yet, but the way we are conditioning the brand community is to say that the vast majority of decisions that need to be made for the need to be done through the lens of the brand marketer. And it goes back to one of the opening statements I had, which was, when brands win, everybody wins. And we need to learn that. Because when we get parochial, as we said before, we operate ineffectively and inefficiently. AI has the ability to open up the drapes and the curtains and let the sunlight in. And we know that when you shine a light on the cockroaches, they all run for the corners.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Who are the cockroaches as you see them?

[Bob Landes]

We'll leave that to another podcast when I'm retired. Seriously, I have great hope for it. I really do. And I do think that if we look at how AI is just transforming every landscape, well beyond marketing. I just saw a report the other day which indicated that marketing has relatively one of the lowest deployments of AI among business and industry. So there's so much more room to grow. We have to become far more capable in acknowledging what it can do for us. But I truly believe that we haven't dove into the water sufficiently yet to effectuate that change. In my company, I'm basically trying to get everybody to develop their own personal and departmental plans because I don't feel while there's lots of great dabbling and there's lots of great application for writing things and becoming more efficient, we haven't upended the business systems yet that only AI, I think, can do at this stage.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

So if we haven't dived into the deep end of the pool, who's going to be the first one to jump in and say, hey guys, the water temperature is bad. Get your ass in here?

[Bob Landes]

Well, from an industry standpoint, I personally think that we have to do this collaboratively. One of the things that we're gonna be doing at the upcoming Masters of Marketing is we are gonna be doing an industry summit. And why we're doing an industry summit is because we have let the golden age of collaboration pass us by. When was that? That was in the decade of 2010 to 2018, when, for example, the IAB, the 4As, and the ANA used to come together and have joint board meetings.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

I was there. Yeah, I was there. On the four A side.

[Bob Landes]

There you go. And to that end, things such as the viewable impression came about, which essentially united digital and linear measurement systems. The Digital Advertising alliance was created to address behavioral targeting and ensure that consumers could make their own privacy choices. We created the Trustworthy Accountability Group that in fact brought an organization together that addressed ad fraud and certain brand safety issues and attacked criminal behavior. We haven't done that in a long time. It's time for us to reunite and to ensure that those things, which are both opportunities and deficiencies, that we have the opportunity to come together, discuss, debate, and identify how we are going to organize or reorganize in the future to pursue those opportunities, obviate the issues that are out there and make better decisions for our entire industry.

[Rachel Tippograph]

I love what you're saying because in the last 12 months, we've seen that happen in commerce because of AI. So essentially, Google, Shopify and a bunch of other major retailers came together to create a standardized system that they're calling ucp. So I guess my question is, why do you think it stopped after 2018? Was it due to the pandemic? Was it due to the rise of retail media? I'm trying to think of what other external factors. Pandemic?

[Bob Landes]

Yeah, we kind of just went into our own little cubbyholes. The ana, we do almost a thousand events per year at the time. They were all face to face. Well, we had to turn the entire association on its head and to become virtual, completely virtual, within a hairbreadth notice. So we weren't necessarily interested in industry affairs at that time. We were interested in ensuring that we could best serve our members in what it was that they needed to navigate their way out of the pandemic. And once you kind of get out of a behavioral mode, it's really tough to crank it back up. We had various changes in leadership that took place. Marla Kaplowitz became the CEO of the four A's. David Cohen became the CEO of the iab. And they had their own respective agendas and we had ours. And we just kind of didn't do what we used to do. We still collaborated on various things like we do now. We're partners on Ad id. We negotiate the Screen Actors Guild contract together. We all serve on the BBB board for self regulation. So there are things that are continuing and as well as servings on the board of, of TAG and the Digital Advertising Alliance. So there was still collaboration, but there was no new collaboration that was in fact taking place. And with the spate of issues and challenges that we have in our ecosystem still and more that are now coming out because of AI, we need to get back in the same room again and have these intelligent conversations and figure out how we're going to tackle the future.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Well, you seem to be a truth teller. So as we're catching you right now, what would you say is one belief that people have about the marketing industry today that they might not want to say out loud? Like what's the elephant in the room? And maybe you're. You think it's the lack of collaboration or transparency or it's something else.

[Bob Landes]

That's a great question. I think there are a couple of things that are going on. I do think that we are probably at the highest level of uncertainty as an industry that we have ever been. And there are a number of things that are really changing the foundation. Economic uncertainty is one of the most important that I see. Many marketers really don't know which way is up. Tariffs get introduced and change the ability to navigate in a global economy. DEI is no longer a word or an acronym that we could effectively use that has changed the way we, we navigate people in terms of having diverse organizations, making belonging a concept that strewns throughout our respective organization and make inclusion the centerpiece for the behavior that in fact we want and need. And then AI has certainly changed the rules of the game. How often have we heard that AI is Resulting in cut staffs. I mean, the agency community is being turned on its head because lower level jobs are being eliminated, at least in the agency community, but all throughout the ecosystem, we're trying to find our footing again. I don't think it's because people are acting badly. I think it's because we don't know which way is forward. And I think marketers in particular, I mean, I can speak for them, that they're trying to find that level of certainty. But the world is changing at a far more rapid pace than it ever has in our own business. We have done a lot to help our members through AI, but six months after we've done things, they're archaic, they're antiquated, we have to throw them out and reinvent because the world is changing so rapidly. So I do think that there is a slippery slope that is out there, that we all have to get close together and stabilize the ecosystem so that in fact, we can move forward decidedly. And a lot of that goes to talent management. And I say that because it has been probably my longest term criticism of our industry. There are many in the industry, and marketers included, that say, oh, our most important asset is our people. Yet how many really provide them the training and the development that they need to be able to succeed? Very few. Maybe the big boys and girls that are out there. But when you go throughout the industry, especially when you have tons of economic uncertainty out there, you are not getting your talent base up to the skill set necessary to navigate in the digital and social media environment and now in the AI environment. So we're all trying to catch up, catch our breath, and make ourselves better so that in fact, we have a greater degree of certainty.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Well, Bob, we could pick your brain all day, but we have to ask our famous last question. What's the bravest thing you've ever done?

[Bob Landes]

Okay, good question.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Bravest.

[Bob Landes]

When I became CEO of the ANA, we were a broken organization. We had only $28,000 in the bank. We only had 28 people in our organization and we had no plan, none whatsoever. Our future was precarious. Our ability to make payrolls was terribly uncertain, and our future had a limited shelf life if we continued on that path. And what we had to do was to completely reinvent the ana. At the time, I had a board of directors that put that job in my hands and trusted me to be able to do that. And with the remaining 27 other people I had, we had to figure out a new path that allowed the ANA to be able to grow to be relevant to our industry, to be able to provide a full slate of products and services that were meaningful for our respective of constituents, and to assume a leadership position within our industry that was not for the faint of heart. Now, fortunately, I didn't have to do all of those in one year, but as I said, the board provided me the opportunity to do it over many years and to make brave decisions like acquire five other trade associations to fill out our portfolio of products and services so that we could provide our members with what it was that they needed in order to to succeed and to pursue what is our core mission, which is brand and business growth. And that was certainly no easy challenge and required a lot of hand holding, a lot of courageous decisions that I look back on now. It's just kind of amazing. We did not go out of business and lose our way. But that to me was what I would consider to be my bravest moment.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

When you're looking at the tunnel and you're like, how do I find my. My light? That's a real tough one.

[Bob Landes]

When you're in the abyss, stop digging.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Well, we are very thankful that you figured your way out of it and that the ANA has continued to be a source of both inspiration and community and education and so much more the 20 or so years that I've been part of this journey. I am super grateful to you and to the entire ANA organization for everything that they've done to help shine a light on what needs to be true and then create that path to get us there. So thank you.

[Bob Landes]

Thank you, Sarah. You don't know what an influence you were to me personally, so I thank you for everything that you've delivered in return.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

All right, well, now that that love fest is over, I hope you guys enjoy future episodes of Praise Congress.

[Rachel Tippograph]

If you like what you heard and you want to keep going into advertising's history to figure out what repeats itself, go check out an episode we did about a year ago with Rashad. Or go check out a recent episode we did with Jim, who's now a professor at Northwestern. If you like what you heard, tell a friend, write a review. Thanks for listening.

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