Bar Keeper's Friend's Felicia Zhang on Building Brands Through Iteration

Summary

---

BRAVE COMMERCE: Bar Keeper's Friend's Felicia Zhang on Building Brands Through Iteration

Host: Adweek
Date: June 16, 2026
Guests: Felicia Zhang (Bar Keeper’s Friend), Rachel Tipograph (MikMak Founder & CEO), Sarah Hofstetter (Profitero President)

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Felicia Zhang’s professional and personal evolution—from agency roles on iconic brands to heading brand management at Bar Keeper’s Friend (BKF). The discussion explores how her transition to a smaller, in-house brand has shaped her leadership style, iterative product development, and the relationship between perfectionism, parenthood, and faith in process. The hosts and Felicia share candid insights on balancing excellence with agility, building resilience, and learning to trust in one’s team, gut, and journey.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Transition from Agency to In-House Brand Management

• Felicia’s Background:

  • Over 15 years as a fan of BKF and an experienced marketer on brands such as Nike, Oreo, and Nestle.
  • The appeal of evolving a beloved legacy product to serve new generations is described as “such a unique challenge and one that I just really, really love. It’s like a startup. You have to run, you have to be able to pivot, you can’t be precious, you can’t get stuck on perfection.” (Felicia, 02:15 & 08:06)
  • She reflects: “When there is an amazing product that’s been trusted for generations, the idea of bringing it into a new generation … is such a unique challenge and one that I just really, really love.” (02:15)

• Learning Curve in Brand Management:

  • Felicia highlights new skillsets: working closely with sales, learning packaging management (a refresh underway for the first time in over a decade), and integrating product claims into all communications.
  • “There are so many things that I am truly learning as I go that I’m really grateful to have the opportunity to do.” (09:18)

The Power of Claims and Packaging (12:14)

• “I really wish I knew before how important claims are when it comes to packaging ... anything that is on packaging is so important ... you are leveraging and ... expanding and communicating on any other marketing or media that you’re doing. So all of it really starts with the product itself ... and having that really be throughout the rest of your marketing.” (Felicia, 12:14)
• Rachel notes, “Claims don’t show up in a media box.” (13:28)

Embracing Imperfection and Iteration

• Moving from Perfectionism to Agility:

  • Felicia describes initial discomfort with being labeled a “perfectionist” via an Enneagram test (14:12), but acknowledges the need to “not get stuck on perfection” at a fast-paced brand.
  • “We are at our best as a team when we know that we have more than one shot at something ... We know that there’s a V1, we’re gonna launch and we’re gonna launch quicker than anyone thought was possible. And then ... there’s gonna be a V2 ... and then a V3 ... That is when we’re at our best and that’s how we have to work to operate.” (Felicia, 14:31)

• Real-Time Consumer Iteration:

  • Example: Launching reusable silicone lids for BKF powder in response to Reddit community feedback—a limited edition test to gauge demand and improve based on rapid feedback.
  • “Our diehard fans on Reddit have been asking for a lid for a long time ... we did it as more of a limited edition kind of one-time thing ... rather than waiting ... let’s launch these lids, let’s give people the thing that they have been asking for as a thank you.” (Felicia, 16:04)

Teaching Action Orientation & Empowering Teams

• Rachel asks if Felicia believes her strong action-orientation is teachable:
  • “100%. And let me tell you, Sarah Hofstetter’s words, as well as actions, play a huge part in that … in any role … you have to oscillate between getting shit done and big strategic ideas. And you have to know when to do what, you know. … Is this a get shit done moment? Is this a get shit done year?” (Felicia, 17:38)
  • On teaching others: “It’s all hands on board when we have a big audacious goal ... I think you have to find people who are going to have that mindset that if I don’t know something, I am going to figure it out ... but people who have that mentality of, yes, I can, yes, I can figure it out.” (Felicia, 18:46)

Parenthood, Perfectionism, and Letting Go

• Personal Story on Parenting Challenges:

  • Felicia details her struggles with breastfeeding and the emotional impact of her son’s “failure to thrive” diagnosis despite following all advice.
  • “[For] a parent who is a perfectionist, that you’re trying to do all the right things, that your child has failure to thrive was so incredibly gutting. And at that moment it was really click—like me trying to be a perfectionist parent in the same way that I had tried to do that through work and all these other things is actually causing harm to my child as well as to myself.” (Felicia, 21:19)
  • “From then I really just said, forget making me feel good about doing what I like. I’m just going to give my kid whatever it is that they’re going to need.” (22:40)

• Broader Lesson:

  • “You just have to let go of the, ‘well, if I do everything right, then there’s an end outcome’ ... the only end outcome that I want for my child is that they love who they are and are comfortable with who they are.” (Felicia, 22:13)

Faith in the Process and Optimism

• Redefining Faith (24:49):

  • “Faith for me is not religion ... faith was just in being able to control everything ... to make sure things would go according to plan ... letting go and just kind of believing that what is meant to be will be mine and what is not meant to be will not be mine. ... The tighter you try to hold on ... just the more insane you’re going to be ... For me, it’s been about loosening up.” (Felicia, 24:49–26:53)

• Bravery as Optimism:

  • “The bravest thing that I’ve ever done is be an optimist. And I will say that I am an optimist. I’m a new optimist. ... What lies ahead is greater than what lies behind us.” (Felicia, 27:37)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On modern brand management:
  “You have to run, you have to be able to pivot. You can’t be precious, you can’t get stuck on perfection. But I’m going to put in the work. I’m going to try to help people. I’m going to try to find solutions to problems. And if I do all of that, I just have faith that good things will come out of it.”
  — Felicia Zhang, 02:15

• On packaging claims:
  “I really wish I knew before how important claims are when it comes to packaging ... all of it really starts with the product itself.”
  — Felicia Zhang, 12:14

• On iterative product launches:
  “We are at our best as a team when we know that we have more than one shot at something.”
  — Felicia Zhang, 14:31

• On balancing execution & vision:
  “You have to oscillate between getting shit done and big strategic ideas. And you have to know when to do what.”
  — Felicia Zhang, 17:38

• On parenthood and perfectionism:
  “Being a parent ... you can do everything ‘right’ ... and there is absolutely no guarantee of any outcome. ... Your job as a parent ... is to just love and support your child.”
  — Felicia Zhang, 20:39

• On faith and letting go:
  “In the grand universe of things, there are just so many things that happen that you don’t have control over. The tighter you try to hold on, in those instances, just the more insane you’re going to be.”
  — Felicia Zhang, 26:25

• On optimism as bravery:
  “The bravest thing that I’ve ever done is be an optimist. ... What lies ahead is greater than what lies behind us.”
  — Felicia Zhang, 27:37

---

Important Timestamps

• 02:15: Felicia shares her philosophy on evolving legacy brands
• 09:18: Learning new facets of brand management at BKF
• 12:14: Importance of product claims and packaging
• 14:12–15:52: On letting go of perfectionism & embracing iteration
• 16:04: Real-world product test: Silicone lids for BKF driven by fan demand
• 17:13: Rachel highlights Felicia’s action-orientation
• 17:38: Discussion of how to teach and model action-oriented behaviors
• 20:27–23:39: Felicia’s story about parenthood shifting her view on perfectionism
• 24:49: Redefining ‘faith’ in personal & professional life, letting go of control
• 27:37: The bravest thing Felicia’s ever done: embracing optimism

---

Conclusion

This episode provides a masterclass in how marketing and personal growth intertwine—especially when driving innovation within a legacy brand. Felicia Zhang demonstrates that courage in commerce is about adapting to change, embracing imperfection, operating with humility and trust, and, above all, nurturing optimism for the future. Her journey models practical wisdom for anyone navigating brand leadership, transformation, or the delicate dance between striving and surrender.

Transcript

[Connect Industrial Representative]

Imagine the merging of trusted intelligence into a unified experience. Imagine collaboration amongst teams and across continents. Imagine an empowered ecosystem designed to deliver actionable insights that inspire growth and sustainability. That's the power of the Connect Industrial intelligence platform to help you see further innovate faster, accomplish more. That's the connect effect. Learn [e-mail].

[Acast Host]

Acast powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[James Richardson]

Hello there. I'm James Richardson and I host the Tony Football Show. Now this summer, the biggest sporting event in the world, the football Men's World cup, is heading to Canada, Mexico and especially the United States. We're going to be there too. We are packing up and heading to Los Angeles for the duration. Which means that every day straight after the last match has concluded, you can catch some hot takes, instant reaction and insightful analysis from ourselves sat around the pool in la. Sounds like we're going to have a lot of fun doing it. I hope you're going to be joining us too. It's from June 10th all the way up to July 19th, the day of the final. Just search for the Tony Football show wherever you get your podcast.

[Acast Host]

Foreign. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard, but not the pipeline. That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.

[LinkedIn Advertiser (Supporting Voice)]

My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had impress Cut the bull spend.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad NETWORKS. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

When there is an amazing product that's been trusted for generations, the idea of bringing it into a new generation, making sure that the brand is as relevant as and as productive today as it always has been, is such a unique challenge and one that I just really, really love. It's like a startup. You have to run. You know, you have to be able to run, you have to be able to pivot. You can't be precious, you can't get stuck on perfection. But I'm going to put in the work. I'm going to try to help people. I'm going to try to find solutions to problems. And if I do all of that, I just have faith that good things will come out of it.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Welcome to today's episode of Free of commerce. I'm Sarah Hofstetter.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And I'm Rachel Tippograph. And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brands. Sarah, I think I already know the answer to this question, but would you consider yourself a perfectionist?

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Do I consider myself a perfectionist or do others consider me a perfectionist?

[Rachel Tippograph]

Do you honestly think the answer differs?

[Sarah Hofstetter]

It absolutely does, depending on the people. Okay, so my husband will say that I am absolutely not a perfectionist. He says I'm an 80 percenter. Like, 80% is good enough.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Yep.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

And I tend to agree, like, if it's 80% of the way there, like, you can work around the edges. And people at work have always said that I'm a crazy ass perfectionist. Like, that I'll find the thing that drives people and they're like, wow, how did she find that thing? And so I don't know what I think I am because at home I'm not seen as a perfectionist, but at work I am seen as a perfectionist. So what did you think I am? Do you think I'm a perfectionist?

[Rachel Tippograph]

I think in relation to other people, I would consider perfectionist. I actually don't consider you perfectionists. I think the reason why you and I work so well together is because we actually both do embody the 80% rule. Like, to be as prolific as we are, you cannot be a perfectionist.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

I think if I was a perfectionist, this, this podcast would be pretty boring.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Also, we would have to wash our hair and publish video.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

No, like, well, we, we, we let the warts show. And I think that that's a big part of being real. But, but it is kind of interesting, just the perspective, because I wonder if your employees think that you're a perfectionist.

[Rachel Tippograph]

I don't know. I have one listening in right now. She could be the judge. But in comparison to my wife, who would also describe herself as a perfectionist, we don't even hold a candle.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

That's funny. My husband's a crazy ass perfectionist. And it is difficult. Like, I was just like, I don't know, dude, it's good enough. I'm like, kind of okay with it. And I, I do think I've always been like that. Again, I feel like there are people that are going to be writing to us after listening to this episode and saying, are you freaking kidding me, Sarah? You're totally a perfectionist. But I'm just telling you a, like, it's not a self awareness thing. Brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room and when I'm not in the room at home, I most certainly not spoken about as a perfectionist and at my various jobs over the course of my career that might be perceived as different, but that I think there's difference. Being perfectionist and having a high standard.

[Rachel Tippograph]

I agree.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

And maybe that's where the confluence comes in.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Sarah, I think you should introduce this guest on the show because you've known them for a long time and you've seen the evolution.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

So Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend is going to be joining us and one of the many reasons that I really wanted to have her on the show is because she's gone through such a transformation professionally and personally. Like the transformation that she's gone through professionally has been, you know, working both on you know, just absolutely huge iconic brands like Nike and Oreo and Nestle over the years. And I had the privilege of working with her on some of that when we overlapped at 360i but now working with a smaller brand but in house, just I think a lot of that has changed the way she thinks about things professionally, but also when we met she wasn't a mom and becoming a mom has really changed a lot of her perspective. So I think her professional development and her personal development have changed her perspective on perfectionism and I think it has made her a stronger leader and a happier human.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Well, on that note, let's bring Felicia onto the show.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

This has been something that I feel is becoming a little bit of a pattern here. It's people that I've worked with, particularly at 360i that have gone on to brand side and have done some pretty extraordinary things. So Felicia, I'm really excited about this conversation because you've seen things from so many different perspectives. Especially let's go in the Wayback Machine on the iconic brands that you have worked on when you were agency side like Oreo and Nestle. What drew you to Barkeeper's Friend and what surprised you the most about making that leap?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Well, firstly, I have been a fan of Barkeeper's Friend, the product for over 15 years. I was someone who got into cooking once I moved in with my then boyfriend, now husband. You know, it's kind of like that life stage and when you are learning to cook, you're going to burn a lot of food on your stove and on your pots and pans.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

I don't know what you're talking about. This never happens. This is you problem like it still happens.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

It's 15 years later, still having the same issues many, many years later. But I found out about Bar Keepers Friend, which is not a product I grew up with from just going into Google. The result that popped up was Reddit and just having a lot of people talk about what a crazy amazing product this was. So I found out about Bar Keeper's Friend many, many years ago and once you try it, you truly will never use anything else. Once tried, always trusted kind of slogan is very true. So I've just been a huge fan of the product and when the opportunity came I was really thrilled. But outside of that to your question Sarah, I think having worked on just many iconic American brands that are trusted by consumers like Oreo, Nestle, like Cole Han and Nike where I worked at also before, outside of the agency world, when there is an amazing product that's been trusted for generations, the idea of bringing it into a new generation, making sure that the brand is as relevant and as productive today as it always has been, is such a unique challenge and one that I just really, really love.

[Rachel Tippograph]

You've described this role as a pivot. So what muscles are you flexing now that maybe you were not doing priority?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Oh so many. I'm coming up on year one and it has been such a huge learning curve and one that I'm really grateful to have. So my background has really been in brand marketing and in digital marketing, which is everything from social to media to what is the brand strategy, campaign planning, integrated marketing, all of that. But my background was not in traditional brand management. So there are so many things that I am learning working with the sales team, packaging, which is a huge thing and especially for our brand as we are undergoing a packaging refresh this year, the first in well over a decade. So there are so many things that I am truly learning as I go that I'm really grateful to have the opportunity to do.

[Warner Brothers Discovery Advertising]

This message is brought to you by Warner Brothers Discovery Advertising and this is more than an ad. This is an invitation to be part of the stories the world can't stop watching. To connect with moments that dominate the conversation. To participate in culture, not just advertise around it. With the most sought after ip, passionate audiences and an advanced AI powered foundation, WBD Advertising transforms attention into influence and impressions into outcomes. This is innovation. This is impact. This is opportunity. This is Warner Bros. Discovery Advertising. Visit advertising.wbd.com to learn more.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bullspend and Marketers are calling it out in dashboard Confessions.

[LinkedIn Advertiser (Supporting Voice)]

I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand. When leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Cut the bull. Spend LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and More. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

[Acast Podcast Advertising Host]

Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience, it's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace, choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format, then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions, you're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com Advertisement Ties

[Rachel Tippograph]

now that you're playing deeper into this world of brand management, what are things that you wish you knew before when you were really leaning deeper into the media ecosystem?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Oh, that's a. That's such a great question. I really wish that. I really wish I knew before how important claims are when it comes to packaging. And anything that is on packaging is so important to make sure that you are leveraging and that you are expanding and communicating on any other marketing or media that you're doing. So all of it really starts with the product itself undergoing research, understanding what about this product has the efficacy or the results or the component parts that are going to resonate with consumers and really aligning on like what your hero messages are, what your hero claims are, having that go unpack and then having that really be throughout the rest of your marketing. So all of it coming from one place, you know, and making sure that it all lands no matter where it's going. I think that part is so, so important. And when you're on the agency side, you know, knowing that there's just so much work that has been done in the upfront from a product development innovation from that side, and that your job is really to make sure that that thread is consistent and really lands meaningfully in every other place that it goes into, I think it's really key.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Yeah, claims don't show up in a media box.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

No, but they're so important and you can be very creative about how you communicate it. But just knowing that there are such Important reasons, you know why that's there.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

It's interesting now that you're, you're seeing things from such a different perspective. Feel like you've had so much experience with tremendous success at all of the companies that you've worked at. There's so much more flexibility when you are brand side at a smaller company. So how do you balance being this like super high achieving type a person who's got like everything kind of under control with more fast moving, fluid kinds of environment.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

So really funny story, we had a commercial off site where the sales and marketing team came together and we all had to take our enneagrams as part of that off site. I got perfectionist which I was aghast. I was not happy. I was not happy to see it.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Are you serious?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

I was very not happy to see it. And I recognize that this is something I'm working through, I need to work through. But that's such a great point, Sarah, because when you are in a brand where you have the possibility to literally put a handprint and touch so many things that you wouldn't be able to. It's like a startup, you have to run, you have to be able to run, you have to be able to pivot. You can't be precious, you can't get stuck on perfection. Which is a lot of learning from previous roles that I've been at. But one thing that I been saying to people that I work with is we are at our best as a team when we know that we have more than one shot at something. So we know that there's a V1, we're going to launch and we're going to launch quicker than anyone thought was possible. And then there's going to be, in a week or two weeks or in a month there's going to be a V2 where we're going to do it a little bit better, you know, and then a month from that we're going to have a V3. We are at our best when we can work this way and be okay with that journey, then to wait three months to try to get V1 as perfect as possible and knowing that nothing is ever perfect when it launches. So there have been so many things that we've launched in the last, I would say six months or so. And what we have learned from muscle memory is v1, v2, v3 in the same time as it would take to launch a V1. That is when we're at our best and that's how we have to work to operate.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And that's when you're iterating with the consumer. I mean, in today's ecosystem, the opportunity to get feedback as fast as possible and then bring it back into your cycle is everything.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Absolutely. We just did a activation where we launched lids, reusable silicone lids that can go on top of your bar keeper's friend powder. So typically we have a sticker that you can kind of peel on and off. And our diehard fans on Reddit have been asking for a lid for a long time and we've never done it because we want to keep the costs low, but we did it as more of a limited edition kind of one time thing. So we launched an activation where we created lids and we gave away over a thousand lids over the span of seven days, 144 a day to celebrate our birthday. And our goal is that we will be able to carry these lids and sell them as individual items either on our website or on Amazon or somewhere else. But rather than waiting for, for getting that all done and aligned and buttoned up, which will take months, what we did was we're saying let's launch these lids. Let's give people the thing that they have been asking for as a thank you. We can continue to do these as activations as we work on creating a system and a backend in order fulfillment where we could do D2C or listening

[Rachel Tippograph]

on Amazon, listening to you talk. You're extremely action oriented. Like you have really tangible examples of how you are moving work forward. And so I'm curious, first of all, if you believe that's a skill that can be taught or if that is just innate in our beings, either you have it or you don't. Okay, so you believe it's a skill that can be taught 100%.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

And let me tell you, Sarah Hofstadter's words, as well as actions play a huge part in that. I was listening to, to Sarah Talk and also one of your previous episodes where Sarah coined that in any role that you're in, you have to oscillate between getting shit done and big strategic ideas. And you have to know when to do what you know. And that was clarifying that I think. You know, that was just so clarifying for me when I heard that. I'm always trying to learn, I'm always getting inspired. And I think it's really important that you sit down with yourself, no matter where you are, kind of in the totem pole and say, like, is this a get shit done moment? Is this a get shit done quarter? You Know, is this a get shit done year? Is this a big strategic idea moment? You know, and again, one doesn't happen without the other, hopefully. But you have to do what is needed at that point in time. And I will say that this is a muscle that, that I'm building and I love it. It's really empowering to know that you yourself can get shit done.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And so how do you teach others to do that?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Oh, that's a great question. Well, one, I think it is always helpful when it's all all hands on board and not just you, all hands on board, you know, so as I said, you know, also just watching, having watched there as well. So I think it's just demonstrating. It's all all hands on board when we have a big audacious goal. Like, for example, we're launching a website in a month. You know, we're launching a website a month, we have a photo shoot two weeks before the website. It all has to get, you know, it all has to get on there. And when it's all on, all hands on board. And, you know, I've got this part, you've got this part, they've got that part. This is how it all comes together and this is how we're all working together. You know, I think that's really important. And then I think you have to find people who are going to have that mindset that if I don't know something, I am going to figure it out. I'm either either going to figure it out myself or I'm going to find the right people to ask, you know, who can help me figure it out. But people who have that mentality of, yes, I can, yes, I can figure it out.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

One of the things that's interesting is you were talking about how aghast you were about the perfectionism. And you and I worked closely together before you became a parent. And now that you are a parent, letting go of that perfectionism has been, frankly, a necessity. And I don't mean you, I mean any parents. Rachel being a new one, me being a, let's just say, not new one. But you've also talked about how letting go of that perfectionism has made you a better parent. So, like, what, what was that spark that helped you realize that and then how, if at all, do you bring that to work?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Yeah, I think that that has been. Being a parent has been just the most transformational experience. And I know everyone says this, so this is not new, but we're talking

[Sarah Hofstetter]

to you and you're the guest, so let's talk about your experience.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

But I think in terms of perfectionism, being a parent is you can do everything, quote unquote, right, you can follow the most hardcore advice you can, you can try to do everything right. And there is absolutely no guarantee of any outcome. And that's the way it should be. And your job as a parent, you know, is to just love and support your child. You kind of like, no matter what. And I think when I recognize that the best that I can do for my child is really just to love and support them no matter what, no matter what they're interested in, no matter how they show up academically, no matter kind of what, you know, their personalities are like, you just have to let go of the, well, if I do everything right, then there's an end outcome. Because the end outcome is just that your child kind of loves who they are and it's comfortable with who they are and goes out into the world with that comfort of loving who they are. You know, like, that's the only end outcome that I want for my child. And I think when you think about perfectionism of if I do this right, my child will go to X school or my child will do this or that. And like, none of that is important and none of that can be guaranteed. And I will share a really personal story. Rachel, I know you're a new parent, but when I had my first child, he was born very, very healthy. And then I had trouble breastfeeding, which a lot of parents do. But I just was kept being told, you know, this is, this is the best that you can do for your child. And I really, really tried. You know, I did not give up. And it got to a point where I think in his two month check in, he had declined on the growth chart to be at something like 4%, which when you slide into the single digits and when you're in the very low single digits, you get into failure to thrive territory. Which being told as a parent who is a perfectionist, that you're trying to do all the right things that your child has failure to thrive was so incredibly gutting. And at that moment it was really click. Like me trying to be a perfectionist parent in the same way that I had tried to do that through work and all these other things is actually causing harm to my child as well as to myself, because it was not fun. Like, none of that was fun. That was a real wake up call. And from then I really just said, you know, forget making me feel good about doing what I like. I'M just going to give my kid whatever it is that they're going to need. And that was a very long journey, you know, to just supporting and feeding, you know, my child so that they could not be failure to thrive and gain a little bit more, and gain a little bit more. And I think even from two months on, you know, that was a lesson of, you just do whatever you need to to make your, make your child thrive, to make them feel supported, you know, and as a baby that's just feeding now, my older son is eight years old now. It's just really about supporting who he just naturally is and making sure that he feels great about that.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

That's beautiful, meaningful. And in the interest of also sharing, I struggled with that with, with my son, who was my second. I had no problem with the breastfeeding. I had a big problem in that he really did not enjoy it and threw up everything that I gave him. And I was like, oh, my God, my baby's rejecting me. This is horrible. I'm going to try harder. And it's like, no, trying harder does not work. Yeah, trying harder just simply doesn't work. And recognizing that, okay, you know what? I know that this is the way it's been done for generations and millennia, but there's a good reason why we have alternative options at the moment and thank God, continue to thrive. But, yeah, it is a punch in the gut. I think one thing that seems to have stayed true throughout all of this is your faith. Faith in yourself, faith in others, faith in the process, which is a big part of letting go. Which again, as somebody who has struggled with this whole, like, how do I not just take all of this on myself, but involve others to make it more both team oriented and also just to frankly function. So faith has become more central to you as you've grown. Like, how do you cultivate that when the road ahead isn't. Isn't so clear?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Sarah, that's such a great question. And to clarify, faith for me is not religion. I am actually not religious at all. I didn't grow up religious. And I would say up until the past few years, I really had no faith. For me, faith was just in being able to control everything that I could to see the road ahead, to control the variables, to make sure that things would go according to plan. So I was, yeah, very little faith. And in the last few years, though, I will say that letting go and just kind of believing that what is meant to be will be mine and what is not meant to be will not be Mine. And just knowing that no matter what happens, if you work hard, you keep trying, you don't give up, good things will happen. Believing in that, fully believing in that, has really been kind of the way that I've been thinking and working the last few years. It's been tough economically. We see it in the news. There's so many layoffs that are happening. There's all kinds of challenges that are happening. You really do not. You know, there's a lot of things that you just don't control. And as a perfectionist, it's all about control. You know, if I do this, I'm going to get this outcome. You know, if I can see around the corner and answer every single possibility, have a plan A through Z, I'm going to be okay. But in the grand universe of things, there are just so many things that happen that you don't have control over. The tighter you try to hold on, in those instances, just the more insane you're going to be. So rather than holding on tighter, I think it's actually about. For me, it's been about loosening up, you know, not necessarily changing the way that I am, but just opening up my mind and saying, you know, I have faced all kinds of challenges before. I have overcome them. I'm not going to overcome them just by hope or just by wishing, but I'm going to put in the work. I'm going to try to help people. I'm going to try to find solutions to problems. And if I do all of that, I just have faith that good things will come out of it and that we will be okay. So I don't have, like, an answer to. To where or why, but as I've gotten older, as I've had challenges that I've worked through, I think it's just simply knowing that no matter what happens, there will be a way, you will have a way, the universe will show you a way, and what's meant to be will be.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Well, it really resonates with me because a therapist once said to me, rachel, the pain is in the pushback.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Oh.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And I think that encapsulates what you just said. We have to ask you our famous last question, which is, what's the bravest thing you've ever done?

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

The bravest thing that I've ever done is be an optimist. And I will say that I am an optimist. I'm a new optimist. I would never have described myself as an optimist. I would. I would have said very annoyingly, I'm a realist, you know, for many years of my life. But today I can, I can absolutely say I am a full optimist. I think, you know, what lies ahead is greater than what lies behind us. Do I. I have proof of this? Concrete proof?

[Sarah Hofstetter]

No.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

But I just know that good things will happen as long as we treat people right, put in the hard work and just do our best.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Well, we appreciate you sharing your optimism and your words of wisdom. Certainly uplifting. We are recording this on a Friday so it's a nice way to roll into the weekend.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Thank you so much.

[Rachel Tippograph]

If you like what you heard and you want to listen to more people from Sarah Hofstadter's past of 360i greatness, go check out the episode we recorded with Megan from Comb. And don't forget, tell a friend, write a review. Thanks for listening.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

[LinkedIn Advertiser (Supporting Voice)]

I remember telling my boss it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Cut the bull. Spend LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

[LinkedIn Advertiser (Supporting Voice)]

Foreign.

[Acast Host]

Powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Taryn]

Do you want to know the best part about being married to a woman? That there's no man involved. I mean, true, but I was gonna say that it's a sleepover every single night with your best friend.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

Oh yeah, that part's cute too.

[Taryn]

I'm Taryn. She's Cami.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

We're married.

[Taryn]

And staying up is our weekly pillow talk out loud with you.

[Felicia from Barkeeper's Friend]

We're giggling, we're gossiping, we're arguing.

[Taryn]

Classic marriage stuff. Just having fun being wives while we navigate growing up and building a family together. Then our sleepover grows. Our listeners call the Peepee hotline with their own gossip, burning questions, late night spirals, all the stuff they'd only tell their best friends. So it's a private sleepover, but you are invited. Staying up with Taryn and Kami. New episodes weekly follow wherever you listen.

[Acast Host]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcast everywhere. Acast.com

[Jackie Cooper]

hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming centre stage and sharing the mic to explain experience, stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.