← BRAVE COMMERCE
BRAVE COMMERCE
Bausch + Lomb’s John Ferris on Making Science Approachable, Reducing Friction, and Winning in the AI Commerce Era
00:23:11
Loading summary
Transcript93 lines
- [00:02]
Sarah Hofstetter
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [00:09]
Rachel Tippograph
Hey, it's Raj and Noah. And we're back with a new season of Am I Doing It Wrong?
- [00:14]
Sarah Hofstetter
The show that explores the all too.
- [00:15]
Rachel Tippograph
Human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [00:18]
John Ferris
Because we're still doing a lot of stuff wrong.
- [00:20]
Rachel Tippograph
But who isn't? That's why each week we're talking about the topics that we could all use a little helping hit with.
- [00:25]
Sarah Hofstetter
Whether it's making new friends as an.
- [00:26]
Rachel Tippograph
Adult, managing our emotions, or even dreaming.
- [00:29]
John Ferris
We'Ll be talking to experts in their fields who are definitely doing things right, so the rest of us can be a bit wiser and a lot better equipped to handle whatever life throws at us.
- [00:38]
Rachel Tippograph
Subscribe now and listen to new episodes of Am I Doing It Wrong? Dropping every Thursday starting January 1st, wherever.
- [00:44]
Sarah Hofstetter
You get your podcasts.
- [00:45]
John Ferris
And for the first time ever, we're going to have full video episodes on YouTube. Because as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
- [00:54]
Rachel Tippograph
Love you.
- [00:56]
Sarah Hofstetter
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com.
- [01:06]
LinkedIn Ads Announcer
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills and Did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started@LinkedIn.com campaign. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:36]
John Ferris
You know, one thing we have to keep in mind as that 170-year-old iHealth company is we are the establishment or the expert in an environment where being that isn't necessarily a good thing. The degree or level of trust in the traditional experts is not what it used to be. We have to recognize that and branch out beyond it. So one of the things that we do is we do know that people, consumers, patients still do trust medical professionals. And in our space, that's the eye care professional. So we seek to partner, educate, work with and amplify ECPs who are active on social media.
- [02:17]
Rachel Tippograph
Welcome to today's episode of Brave Commerce. I'm Rachel Tippograph, the founder and CEO of Micmac.
- [02:23]
Sarah Hofstetter
And I'm Sarah Hofstetter, chairwoman of Profitero plus. And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brands.
- [02:37]
Rachel Tippograph
This question's gonna be funny. Sarah, where do you buy your drugs?
- [02:41]
Sarah Hofstetter
Okay, you're right. That was okay. Which kinds of drugs are we talking about?
- [02:45]
Rachel Tippograph
Regulated drugs.
- [02:47]
Sarah Hofstetter
Oh.
- [02:48]
John Ferris
Oh, my bad.
- [02:49]
Sarah Hofstetter
I'm so, so sorry. It's a good question and it kind of depends. I'm an old school traditionalist. I go to my local cvs. I know my pharmacist. It's generally how I roll. Not exclusive, but it's definitely a super majority. How about you, my friend?
- [03:03]
Rachel Tippograph
Oddly enough, we're quite similar here. CVS because it's the closest pharmacy to me. I have to tell you, my wife knows this. I dread going there.
- [03:11]
Sarah Hofstetter
Say more.
- [03:12]
Rachel Tippograph
Lack of staff. You can feel the cost cutting measures and the fact that I often have to wait for someone to help me. I access products that are on the shelves because they're behind a lockbox.
- [03:23]
Sarah Hofstetter
So if I'm getting prescription, I go to cvs. If I am getting anything else otc, I use the Internet. It is way, way too difficult. The barrier to conversion is so high and I don't know how much the suppliers understand that. But at this point, think about the drug channel in general. Like you said, there's one down the block from you. There are like three within a mile of me. It's great that you've got that ubiquity, but you've gotten the ubiquity and you've lost the convenience.
- [03:55]
John Ferris
Yep.
- [03:56]
Sarah Hofstetter
I don't know where my closest Amazon Dark store is, but I can certainly tell you that I don't need somebody to open up a damn lockbox for me to be able to get insert anything here.
- [04:08]
Rachel Tippograph
Yeah, you can just feel like the lack of longevity that is going to exist in that strategy.
- [04:13]
Sarah Hofstetter
Something's got to change. We saw what happened with all the Rite Aid closures and others. Something's got to change in order for this entire channel to work because the. The benefit of the real estate is completely lost in the lack of. In the lack of service. And I do believe that that applies to the digital world as well. Because the more convenient option than going to your corner store is paying your doordash shopper to go to the corner store for you. And if they don't want to wait around for somebody to go open a box for them, I can assure you you're going to get substituted out as well. Per manufacturers. As we think about the new year and all of our resolutions and all of the things that we would normally go to the drugstore for. Where does one turn to for both convenience and advice and ease of conversion?
- [05:03]
Rachel Tippograph
Yeah, well, let's not answer that question ourselves, but bring on an operator who has spent majority of his career working within consumer healthcare. We will bring John Ferris onto the show.
- [05:16]
Sarah Hofstetter
Today.
- [05:16]
Rachel Tippograph
We are very excited to have John Ferris, the president of consumer at Bosch and Loan. Hey, John.
- [05:22]
John Ferris
Hey, Rachel. Great to be here.
- [05:24]
Rachel Tippograph
Super excited to have you. You are officially the first episode we're recording in 2026. So it can only go up or down from here.
- [05:32]
John Ferris
We're going to set the bar really, really high.
- [05:34]
Rachel Tippograph
Okay.
- [05:35]
John Ferris
We're going to set the bar high.
- [05:36]
Rachel Tippograph
We want a challenge this year. Speaking of some impressive feats, Boston LOM, the company's been around for 170 years. I can't think of many companies that have been around that long with a deep history in eye care. And it's funny, when I was preparing for this show, I realized that I probably have not thought much about my eye health, which maybe is not unique to me. How do you get consumers to care about their eye health?
- [06:04]
John Ferris
You're certainly not alone. And you're right. Bauscalom has this wonderful 170 year legacy in eye health, which is fantastic. It's a well known brand to consumers and eye care practitioners. But with that comes a lot of responsibility for really educating consumers and making them more aware of their eye health. We've done numerous surveys that show that consumers will rate vision as their most valued or most treasured sense, but then they take it for granted. It's a bit of a conundrum. They won't take action unless there's something wrong. So we see that as a responsibility on our part. Right. To raise awareness, to educate consumers. We believe the most important aspect of that is driving them to their eye care professional for an annual eye exam. And it's funny, we talk about an annual eye exam, but most people get one maybe once every two or three years if then. So we really want to change that behavior. So we're all about educating consumers, raising awareness of the different eye health conditions, but really making that connection with their eye care practitioner as really the starting point.
- [07:06]
Rachel Tippograph
Sarah, when was the last time you got your eyes checked?
- [07:08]
Sarah Hofstetter
Last week.
- [07:09]
John Ferris
Oh, wow.
- [07:10]
Rachel Tippograph
Okay.
- [07:11]
Sarah Hofstetter
Yeah, that's right. That's right, Phoebe, There you go.
- [07:14]
Rachel Tippograph
Yeah.
- [07:15]
John Ferris
All right. Rachel, how about you?
- [07:16]
Rachel Tippograph
I don't even want to tell you.
- [07:18]
Sarah Hofstetter
Guys, you and I. And again, sorry for our listeners to hear me drone on. We are in different generations, the Two of us, once you hit a certain age, you get to a point where your eye health becomes more important because your eyes tell you your eye health.
- [07:34]
Rachel Tippograph
Becomes more important that 45 that it is.
- [07:38]
Sarah Hofstetter
So you've got a while.
- [07:39]
John Ferris
Yeah, that's exactly right. So when people do notice a change in their vision and midlife is absolutely one of those, people start to experience presbyopia, difficulty in low light or reading close up, that's certainly a trigger point. But so much can be going on with your eyes in between. And that's really the opportunity to educate consumers.
- [07:58]
Sarah Hofstetter
Absolutely. And I would say once you start going to a real professional and it's not just about checking your vision, but the total eye care, you realize actually all the things that you need to know, that is something that we all kind of need to get better educated about. That being said, you know, a lot of that kind of plays into broader health and wellness trends. We, we as consumers become more interested in sourcing more and more information before we do anything, whether it's before we go see a professional, before we put anything on or in our bodies. There's so much science that's involved, but then there are so many other people that are deemed these like influencers that are just frankly self named. How do you balance that whole expertise and especially when you're dealing with like hcps and stuff like that with this social first influencer type environment, Especially when there's such a critical set of messages that you're trying to get across.
- [09:01]
John Ferris
That's a great question. And you know, one thing we have to keep in mind as that 170-year-old iHealth company is we are the establishment or the expert in an environment where being that isn't necessarily a good thing. The degree or level of trust in the traditional experts is not what it used to be. We have to recognize that and branch out beyond it. So one of the things that we do is we do know that people, consumers, patients still do trust that medical professionals and in our space, that's the eye care professional. So we seek to partner, educate, work with and amplify ECPs who are active on social media. Right. So who are leaning in and have their influencers, they're on these social channels, they're making the funny TikTok videos that are educational that really gain traction. That to us is, is a really important way, right? Saying hey, let's lean in and let's partner with that new. It tends to be a younger but not always eye care professional who's embracing these new channels. Knowing that they will be viewed as a trusted health source another place, and we're already involved here. And then there was this announcement just I Think yesterday about ChatGPT Health. Generative AI. ChatBots are already being used for health information and the way they generate the content that they're serving to their users is very different. And so we know that we need to adapt to that new environment. We need to make sure that that chatbot who is going to be trusted or it looks like is going to be trusted, that they're getting information that is as accurate and as timely as possible for the consumer. And frankly, today it's not where it should be, especially in our space. So we're working very hard to publish, create and distribute more content that carries that aura of expertise, authority and trustworthy, so those chatbots will serve it to their users. It's exciting and it's scary. I use those chat bots. I don't know if either of you do, but I have used ChatGPT for health questions and then when I use it for eye health questions, to see the quality of the information, we hear a lot that these chatbots are 85% accurate. That's where it feels like the information is today. And 85% isn't good enough.
- [11:12]
LinkedIn Ads Announcer
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills and. Did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.
- [11:43]
Sarah Hofstetter
I love the idea of making sure that the influencers that you guys work with the most are the ones that are actually eye care professionals. But then you've got this 85% world. And I don't know about your folks growing up. If I came home with an 85, my parents would just be like, what happened to the other 15?
- [12:02]
John Ferris
That's not so good, right? That's not good enough.
- [12:04]
Sarah Hofstetter
Whether it's the chat bots or even search engines like Google with Gemini, as these are becoming more and more critical, how do you think about optimizing even your content or creating different kinds of content for, or if nothing else, the bots to ensure that you're both improving accuracy and that you're the go to source, where does that sit? Even like at your executive level? Like, how do you find a way for your brain not to hurt to think about that?
- [12:33]
John Ferris
That's an interesting way to put it. I mean, hey, first and foremost, we absolutely see it as an opportunity. We started out talking about how consumers were taking their eye health for granted. Right. We think this is a great way that we can influence that and change that behavior or mindset, but you have to lean into it. So I think as a company and within my team, we've set ground rules, internal rules of engagement. Rather than take a wait and see approach, we started to move forward already. We know it's not going to be perfect, but the opportunity is there, but also the responsibility. So there's no playbook that exists. You have to be brave, you have to be courageous and take those steps. What we do know is we know the science and so we are starting from a place of expertise and authority as we keep it grounded in the science and we learn the rules of the road. Right. Where you need to publish content. One source that's come up, Reddit. These chatbots go to Reddit as a source of expertise, right? So we've never played in Reddit, we've never been involved in that space. So we're quickly learning how to do that. We do know that the professional associations and third party websites do have that credibility. And so we're making sure that we're partnering with those organizations who we always have to make them aware of how important their content is and how important it is that it's structured in the right way so that it shows up. And we do have a doctor who's a strategic advisor to us. And I was speaking to her actually just the other day at our leadership meeting and she said she had a patient come in who had health information from ChatGPT, which frankly was not accurate. And the patient didn't believe her that it wasn't accurate. It wanted to believe the AI. So the patient's response was no, you're wrong, this is right. I think that speaks to the challenge here.
- [14:23]
Rachel Tippograph
Very similar to what you're describing. When new challenger brands come to market that don't have as robust of legal teams or maybe the spine from 170 years of credibility and caring about the end consumer in the way that you guys do, how do you combat that fake news around claims? We see this a lot in the beauty category. Companies like l', Oreal, Estee Lauder, they're hardcore about the claims that they put out there and then you see indie beauty brands come to market that just say whatever they want and that really seems to cut through in an environment like TikTok. So how do you guys combat these challenger brands that might have unfair claims?
- [15:05]
John Ferris
Absolutely a challenge. And we face it in our supplements business. So nutritional supplements. Right. Famous for startup or challenger brands being more than loose with the rules. You mentioned beauty. We have our lumify redness reliever product and we've seen knockoff versions there. Hey, we always start again with we are not going to change our DNA and who we are. So we have to be true to. We are that 170 year old eye health company. We do have expertise in scientific credibility, but we need to make it approachable. I think what those brands do a great job of is they tell a story that people can relate to, they can digest and it seems compelling. So we have to make sure that we serve up our content, that we speak to the consumer in a way, in a similar way, but do it from that place of scientific credibility.
- [15:55]
Sarah Hofstetter
We're talking a lot about brand discovery when it comes down to bringing those consumers further down the funnel onto ultimately buying, whether that is direct in store, e commerce, whatnot. How do you think about the journey and how that's changed and even organizationally are there things that you guys have done to pivot based on that?
- [16:18]
John Ferris
Well, so first that journey has absolutely changed. I used to say that it was evolving. Now I think the word disruption is maybe fair to use and I think that word's overused. I think it does apply here. Hey, we're quickly moving to a place where an AI agent is going to make that purchase for you. Right. Not only is that where you're going to discover the product, but then that purchase is going to be made for you increasingly with agentic AI. So as a team we have to challenge ourselves to make sure we understand how this new world operates. There's the way the world used to be and that was fantastic. We have to be prepared to win in the way the world's moving. So one is again that sense of we have to move fast. Can't wait for it to happen, start moving forward already, which we have. We've onboarded new external partners, whether they're agencies to advise us, whether they're technology plays that help make sure that our products are easy to purchase in that agentec environment. We've already made some moves there internally from a talent perspective. I restructured my team with more of an emphasis on digital commerce and digital marketing. We've restructured and put resources there and we're also upskilling our teams. We're making sure that we've made an investment as a company across our entire company to upskill our colleagues on AI competency. You have to be competent in it to execute against it. Right. We're really encouraging that, frankly. It was voluntary in 2025 and 2026. It's mandatory. Right. And it's considered to be part of your personal professional development and it will be mandatory moving forward. So we're upskilling our team. We're bringing in new, new partners and new technologies and we're just going to continue to do that.
- [17:59]
Rachel Tippograph
It's awesome to see the investments and the emphasis from the top. You know, you talked a lot about new ways of doing things. You've spent the majority of your career working in consumer healthcare. And it feels like the tides, they have been changing for a while, but they're really changing. On the channel side, when you think about what your your retail sales were probably 20 years ago, I'm guessing names like CVS and Walgreens were at the top. As a consumer, it's quite easy to see there's a lot of change happening right now within drug. What do you think is the future of drug as a channel?
- [18:38]
John Ferris
Great question. You're absolutely right. Our mix of channel is absolutely changing. Digital commerce, obviously Amazon is the juggernaut there, but Walmart and then places like Instacart and TikTok Shop are quickly rising. So super fast change. Hey, Drug was slow to latch on to Omnichannel. They didn't, I think, see the future in digital commerce or resistant or just too slow to move. They're trying to play catch up. Obviously Walgreens is in a very difficult situation and if we were having this conversation five years ago or six years ago, I would have said Walgreens was one of my star customers and one of my fastest growing customers. And now it's the opposite. Nothing against Walgreens. I hope they write their ship. Cvs, frankly, is doing a little better, so it's interesting to see that dichotomy. But think about it. Eckerd and Rite Aid went away. There used to be four big drug retailers. We're down to two. Maybe we'll see a world where we only have one. I think they have to figure out what their business model is moving forward. CVS seems to be doing a better job of that at the moment and Walgreens has to turn it around. But I think it shows that you can't take the consumer for granted. You have to go out and earn their trust and earn their dollar every day. That's whether you're a brand, whether you're a retailer, whether you're a digital commerce retailer. Right. You have to go out and earn that business every day.
- [19:59]
Sarah Hofstetter
It's a great point. And the shifts in Drug are pretty extraordinary. But even if you look at the that section, even in these larger stores like Target and Walmart, one thing that has been a theme that I've heard about from a number of companies, I'm curious if it's something that you've experienced is because so much products that are bought at Drug are often fulfilled not necessarily by the CVS.com or Walgreens.com but more the instacarts and the doordashes. When they walk into the actual retail experience, if they are behind lock and key, they'll substitute. And it seems like that is a hidden barrier for omnichannel conversion. Have you seen anything like that? And if so, how do you go about trying to change that dynamic with your customers?
- [20:52]
John Ferris
The consumer, the shopper is absolutely all about convenience today. Right. And anything that causes friction is going to cause them or many of them to look elsewhere. And again, it's interesting if you think about it. Drug used to be about convenience. There was a Walgreens or a CVS on every corner. They were on the right corner and it was about convenience. Right. And they could command a price premium because of that. Well now if you think about it, you can be in a Walgreens or CVS waiting for your prescription to be filled. Half the time you're doing it through a drive through so you're not in the front end. But if you've gone in the store and you're waiting for your prescription to be filled, let's call it the old fashioned way, and you wander off to the, to the OTC section and everything's behind lock and key. Well, it's easier to order it on Amazon, on your phone and have it almost at your doorstep when you get home or certainly shortly after than it is to try to find staff to.
- [21:43]
Sarah Hofstetter
Open that locker or trade down to the private label. That's not necessarily behind lock and key.
- [21:49]
John Ferris
That's exactly right. So our Lumify brand, unfortunately if you go in many stores is locked up. That is a challenge for us. We are working on anti theft alternatives or options with the trade. We see it has a clear impact on consumption. We're fortunate with our Lumify brand that there isn't private label, that consumer moves to another store, they will.
- [22:10]
Rachel Tippograph
Well, John, we could pick your brain all day. I love the level of humility that you are bringing to the conversation. We have to ask you our famous last question, which is what's the bravest thing you've ever done?
- [22:22]
John Ferris
All right, so I had to think about this one a little bit. Honestly, I don't know if I've ever thought that I'd done anything that courageous. But I have listened to your podcast and I recall a guest last year talking about deciding not to move his family, not to take the chance of doing something and choosing work life balance and that worked out for him, which is fantastic. I actually took the opposite approach once. So I had a really great career going and a fantastic situation. Was well regarded. Career was advancing. Had a 6 month old or I guess he was 9 months old at the time. We had on site childcare. I actually was the working parent taking my son to childcare at my location. I had the diaper bag over the shoulder and all that and we had family close by and it was actually fantastic. I wanted to go into another part of the business out of state that frankly was the larger, you know, was the larger pond in the company and I took that chance and my wife and I moved our family again. We had a nine month old and another one on the way and we moved away from all, you know, from that support network to family. And honestly, it wasn't easy making that career transition with all that life. Transition wasn't easy. I went from being someone who was super well regarded on a clear trajectory to needing to gain traction and it took a while and I did second guess myself. It turned out to be an incredible growth experience. It really did professionally and personally. We made new friends on the personal side and got a whole different perspective living in a different area of the country. A I had to dig deeper and I gained new confidence and new skills and I wouldn't be where I'm at in my career today if I hadn't made that move. So I guess that's what I'm going to say that that's probably the most courageous thing I've ever done.
- [24:06]
Rachel Tippograph
Love that side of the story. And your kid was nine months. So it's not like they remembered.
- [24:11]
John Ferris
They don't. We ended up moving back so they were five when we moved back. So they do talk and they miss, they miss where we were living before sometimes. So that's, that's great. They. So we know they have a memory but.
- [24:21]
Rachel Tippograph
But yeah, John, we appreciate you sharing all these insights, especially at the top of the year. So much disruption happening not just in consumer behavior, but wellness and healthcare, and it's great to see you at the forefront of it.
- [24:32]
John Ferris
Oh, thank you. I've enjoyed being being with you and thank you for having me.
- [24:39]
Rachel Tippograph
If you like what you heard and you want to keep thinking about healthcare, consumer healthcare in particular, from different angles, go check out an episode we recorded in 2025 with Organic Care's Carol Ann Goodner. Or go check out our pal Megan from Comb. If you like what you heard, tell a friend. Write a review. Thanks for listening.
- [25:18]
LinkedIn Ads Announcer
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision maker. A network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills and. Did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.
- [25:52]
Sarah Hofstetter
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hey, it's Christy and I'm Kelly. You might remember us as the OG Partners in Crime from Dance Moms.
- [26:06]
Rachel Tippograph
Well, this is Back to the Bar, the podcast where we drag out every insane, chaotic and iconic moment from the show.
- [26:13]
Sarah Hofstetter
We're spilling the tea, calling out all the BS and sharing stuff you definitely didn't see on tv.
- [26:18]
Rachel Tippograph
New episodes drop every week and yes, we're laughing through the trauma for once.
- [26:24]
Sarah Hofstetter
Follow, grab a drink and join us as we go back to the bar. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [26:35]
John Ferris
Acast.com hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast.
- [26:46]
Sarah Hofstetter
Launching on the Adweek Podcast Network.
- [26:49]
John Ferris
My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice.
- [26:52]
Sarah Hofstetter
Meet everyone once.
- [26:53]
John Ferris
As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming.
- [27:00]
Sarah Hofstetter
Centre stage and sharing the mic to.
- [27:02]
John Ferris
Experience stories of truth, insights and visions.
- [27:05]
Sarah Hofstetter
For the future that will challenge your way of thinking.
- [27:07]
John Ferris
Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.