← BRAVE COMMERCE
BRAVE COMMERCE
Campbell’s Risa Cretella on Reinventing Iconic Brands and Winning in Commoditized Categories
00:27:43
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- [01:36]
Risa Cratella
Risk tolerance cannot be applied as a one size fits all, right. You have to consider the maturity and resiliency of a brand, the health of a category, and also the retailer's willingness to they have to be willing to take risks with you and then of course the size and importance of any given brand or business to a company's P and L. So with the portfolio I run now with six, seven distinct segments, you cannot take six or seven big risks, right? You have to balance your risk taking with having safety nets and I'll call them sure bets. So in a nutshell, I've now figured out how to articulate my remit is really around smart risk taking taking.
- [02:17]
Sarah Hofstetter
Welcome to today's episode of Free of Commerce. I'm Sarah Hofstetter.
- [02:21]
Rachel Tipograph
And I'm Rachel Tipograph and this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brands. Sarah we obviously spend a lot of time within CPG and it feels like in some ways the gap between challenger brands and the incumbents are widening for a multitude of reasons. But you know, from my perspective also, especially since joining Spin since the acquisition is that the challenger brands are Just designed to innovate. And it's much more difficult for large CPGs to bring product innovation to market.
- [03:07]
Sarah Hofstetter
Well, I mean, it goes back to book by Lou Gerstner who says elephants can't dance. It's very hard for big companies to move nimbly. And so innovate or die is a requirement. For disruptors bigger companies, it's innovate or die a slow death, I guess, versus just cohabs, which is. This is just terribly depressing. But taking this back to the podcast, it requires a certain degree of bravery within big companies to take big swings. Because whether it's innovation or whether it's marketing, any big swing that you take could be an epic flop and you could be a brand caretaker without being a brand leader.
- [03:54]
Rachel Tipograph
And the reality is, is that step change, innovation is what wins. Like you can't take baby steps anymore.
- [04:00]
Sarah Hofstetter
Well, you know, the whole new and improved Starburst you can put on a product that will only get you so far. And in fact, some argue that when you do that, it creates negative effect of for sleep shoppers. So the question is, what do you do?
- [04:13]
Rachel Tipograph
The number one thing that you have to do is keep moving. Like inertia is what will kill you.
- [04:18]
Sarah Hofstetter
Yes. But I would posit you also have to be comfortable taking risk. Like risking like a start of risks. Because big companies used to be able to outspend, but the nimble ones are out hustling. So the question is, what kind of a big swing can you take? And do you have enough downside protection on the risk taking to be able to do it? I mean, back in the day, and this is really back in the day when I worked on Oreo and we did the Gay Pride social media post, which is hilarious that that was risk taking back then, but yet it was. I got a phone call from somebody very senior at the company telling me how much risk I put to the business by doing that. And I'm like, I was just. The agency. Like the agency got approval. Like, I don't know why you're yelling at me. But the brand teams, they got their wrist slap for taking swings.
- [05:13]
Rachel Tipograph
Yeah, a hundred percent.
- [05:14]
Sarah Hofstetter
What brand of the Monteluyse portfolio is more iconic than Orio? Because they take big swings now. And, and I think that's. That's what leaders have to do. Yeah.
- [05:23]
Rachel Tipograph
I mean, another place to look is my alma mater. Look at what Richard Dixon is doing right now at Gap.
- [05:28]
Sarah Hofstetter
Oh, yeah.
- [05:29]
Rachel Tipograph
I mean, he has revitalized that brand. That hasn't been that way since essentially
- [05:35]
Sarah Hofstetter
the 90s but he took big swings.
- [05:37]
Rachel Tipograph
He's only taking big swings and he's executing flawlessly.
- [05:41]
Sarah Hofstetter
Shout out to our friend, Pam Kaufman, former bravecon alum and friend of the two of us. Chief Entertainment Officer over there. Making some moves.
- [05:49]
Rachel Tipograph
Yeah, absolutely. But bringing it back to who we're about to bring on the show, we've had folks over the years from Campbell's join us and we all know that Sarah Hofstadter is on the board, my co host of Campbell's. But there is a rockstar leader who came through an acquisition who is leading the meals in bed business. And once you hear from her, you will see how she is truly a change agent to risk taking within this larger organization. So without further ado, let's bring Reesa onto the show.
- [06:20]
Sarah Hofstetter
We are happy to have Ritza Cratella EVP of meals and beverages at the Campbell's company. That is a mouthful. But bottom line, you are the uber boss on all things meals and beverages at Campbell's.
- [06:32]
Risa Cratella
Am I right? It's a wonderful role and I'm privileged to have it. I'm privileged to be here with the two of you. And greetings to the Brave Commerce audience.
- [06:39]
Sarah Hofstetter
Thanks so much for joining us. You and I first met via the acquisition by Campbell's of RAOS when you were leading a whole bunch of work there and I fell in love with you instantly. I'm just, I was like seriously fangirling and now it's just awesome to see you leading the entire M and B division. One of the challenges, though, is when you go from such an entrepreneurial environment to, let's just say, a bigger beast, if you will. It's hard to figure out how to bring the best of the best of the entrepreneurship while still handling the scale and diversity of brands and all the other stuff that you have to work with at Campbell's. So what might be some of the things that you can bring from an entrepreneurial spirit and what are the things that just don't scale?
- [07:32]
Risa Cratella
Yes, when I first joined the Campbell's organization, as you mentioned via the acquisition, I was being positively bombarded with these questions around Risa, like, how do we adopt the growth mindset from your entrepreneurial experience from what we know is very common and contributes greatly to the success of insurgent brands? And I find myself playing along like, okay, sure, let's talk about the growth mindset. And then it took a few months for me to fess up. Like, I'm not actually sure what growth mindset is supposed to mean in terms of my ability to articulate it and apply it. Because it's not as if when building Rao's, we sat around a room and talked about our growth mindset.
- [08:16]
Sarah Hofstetter
Right?
- [08:16]
Risa Cratella
We just did. We just got things done. And that's spirit was, I think, inherent in all of us who were attracted to that company, that environment at that time. So it actually took me a bit to figure out how to articulate this because it really became my number one remit as division president. Right. My primary remit is Risa. We're looking to you to drive cultural impact at Campbell's by perpetuating a growth mindset. So given the importance of it in my remit, I had to figure out what that meant. What it means for me is an obsession with winning in the marketplace. But the how is really, I would say, around risk taking. Making fast decisions with limited information is required in a startup environment. Running an insurgent brand, oftentimes because time and speed are your primary advantage versus big competitors. And secondly, because you just might not have a lot of information, you might not buy circana data, you might not be able to afford primary research, and you're inherently relying on the judgment and experience of your teams. So at a company like Campbell's, which has a lot of resources and data and information at its fingertips, how do we encourage willingness to fail, less dependency on that data, and inspire people to be agile? It's okay to fail. You just have to have a plan to pivot, retool, try something different. So I think culturally, in order to get to that growth mindset, get to that speed, it's really. I have found conversations about smart risk taking. Now, risk tolerance cannot be applied as a one size fits all, right? You have to consider the maturity and resiliency of a brand, the health of a category, and also the retailer's willingness to go along with you right on your journey. And they have to be willing to take risks with you. And then, of course, the size and importance of any given brand or business to a company's P and L. So with the portfolio I run now with six, seven distinct segments, you cannot take six or seven big risks, right? You have to balance your risk taking with having safety nets, and I'll call them sure bets. So in a nutshell, I've now figured out how to articulate my remit is really around smart risk taking.
- [10:50]
Sarah Hofstetter
So as you think about the smart risk taking, you talked about the two things that the insurgents have the advantage on, which is time and speed. There's a much bigger organization, more brands, risk taking is Definitely one element of it. But as you think through, like, what are things that you've done to accelerate the time and speed to get people to get to decisions faster and just pivot when you need to, or if you have an example you'd be willing to share that says, you know what, we just saw something in the market, and sure, it would have taken us weeks to validate, but, you know, we have enough pattern recognition to know this is just something we need to go.
- [11:27]
Risa Cratella
So an example which we have talked about publicly, it's an innovation that's coming out, is around what we're calling Campbell's Condensed sauces, which are launching this summer, you know, will be ubiquitous on shelves this fall into the holiday season. And this is a product that will have the word sauce on it on the label and be merchandised in the soup aisle. That might feel on the surface, like, if you're a tenured Campbell's employee, if you've been a longtime ambassador and steward for the beloved brand, you might say, oh, my gosh, that feels terribly risky to have the word sauce on an iconic, you know, Campbell's dressed package in the soup aisle. When you take a step back, you realize consumers have been using our condensed soups for decades as cooking sauces, as ingredients incorporating into a broader, you know, recipe with a protein and a carbohydrate. So the consumer behavior is there, and we were able to kind of cut through the noise of onerous research, concept testing, et cetera, and just say we have enough information based on what consumers are doing with our products today to have conviction around this, to move quickly, and really jumped right to getting a couple of our top retailers to share that mindset. Once we had that, the conviction within ourselves, the right to win for our brand, the confidence of consumer adoption, and then all kind of validated with retailers nodding their heads. And then you have to ask yourself, what would get us in the way of going quickly? And the answer is probably just our own fear, our own reservations. And then it becomes really like an emotional and psychological conversation with your teams to make them feel safe and reassured in taking that risk.
- [13:24]
Rachel Tipograph
I love that you said that, because while you were talking, I was thinking about. And this is an extreme word, but I find when people are entering periods of change where you're trying to change the culture, it's not just the job that they're within, but it's their entire career history of ptsd. And you kind of have to, like, undo all of that, which can be a large responsibility and take a lot of time. So the fact that you hit on the mental factor of this, I think is so key.
- [13:51]
Risa Cratella
And I think to the point you're making in a macro environment, right, where people are struggling with conditions of the world, challenges in their own household, oftentimes people rely on getting up and going to work every day as being something predictable. And we just don't have the luxury of minimizing change to enable comfort because status quo is one of the riskiest things that we can do in this environment. So as leaders, this is the most, and I would like to feel I've always had intentionality about providing psychological and emotional safety, but I think it's even more critical as leaders in this environment. If you're asking people to dig deep, take risks, do maybe scary things in their professional life, you have to be conscious that there might be aspects of their personal life where they're struggling already with change management or, you know, struggling with other circumstances. So I think even just being more in tune and more intentional about providing that emotional safety is very important.
- [14:59]
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- [15:49]
LinkedIn Advertiser
up the dashboard but not the pipeline? That's bullspend. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.
- [15:57]
My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had.
- [16:02]
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- [16:17]
Rachel Tipograph
So you just talked about the dichotomy of an employee, which is their personal and their professional lives. And as a leader, seeing them as A whole person taking that example now bringing it to driving revenue, like driving top line revenue. At the end of the day you are responsible for business performance. And you know, Sarah and I have been witness to this. But often driving sales and building brands that stand the test of time, people feel like those two things are at odds with each other. And so where do you see companies go wrong in thinking about the commercial and the brand building model and how they should function together?
- [16:57]
Risa Cratella
Yes, and I will answer that by saying when I say companies go wrong, I don't want this to sound like an indictment on other companies and other people. I can articulate this because I've gotten it wrong at various points in my career. I do think it comes down to at times there's a lack of shared definition of success at times between traditional brand building metrics and commercial metrics. So what I mean by that, if we think of like if you were a traditional, you know, academic brand marketer, you're focused on awareness, equity health scores, these are things that are based on consumer perception, not consumer behavior. So we have to make sure that in addition to bolstering consumer perception of brands, and I'm not minimizing the importance of equity health scores, it has to be coupled with contemplation for driving key commercial metrics. Distribution on shelf. What is your breadth and depth of distribution, your SKUs, your numbers of stores? Do you have price competitiveness which is not static. You could have been price competitive last year and not this year. Even though you didn't change anything, the world just changed around you. You, your merchandising quality getting more difficult in an environment where retailers are more frugal about how they spend their labor costs all in service of driving volume led top line growth, which ultimately measures consumer behavior, not consumer intention. So bringing those together consumer perception and intention with consumer behavior. Now insurgent brands have a bit of an advantage here in that there's really not a choice to make because your starting point is securing physical availability driving velocities that shelf through trial generation so that that distribution you've worked so hard to get is sustainable and then eventually becomes ubiquitous. And then in time you focus on those higher order metrics such as repeat loyalty, mental availability. So and by the way, I just said that applies to insurgent brands, but that can apply also to re contemplating, you know, the path for a mature iconic brand. Is there a point in time where you reset that and say okay, let's take stock in our distribution footprint, our price competitiveness, even though for decades we have may have had anthem campaigns on air to drive equity perception. So it's important to ensure that brand building initiatives are in service of driving marketplace and financial outcomes, and that in a brand hierarchy of needs, no matter where you are in your life stage, that those key commercial metrics are the foundation of the pyramid. So back to where we started. I think we can get it wrong if we don't think of traditional brand building and consumer metrics in concerts.
- [19:48]
Sarah Hofstetter
How do you think about that? Because you talk about the criticality of the obviously physical availability, the criticality of brands today in light of the massive pressure from private label. What's the RTB like? What's the real reason to believe that people should buy brands today in light of so much pressure on consumers? Wallets.
- [20:10]
Risa Cratella
I love to ask that question to our key marketers, because if you are responsible for a brand, you should be able to answer that question and have a point of view in order to ensure the security of your brand for the long term. So for some context for your listeners, I do tend to have a lot of conversations about Rayos and building that brand from 80 million to a billion. It's a compelling story. I love talking about it. But I have had the privilege of leading, or we're being a part of four brands, all four of which are over a hundred years old and over a billion dollars, which is Smuckers, Folgers, Coffee, Bird's Eye, Vegetables, and now Campbell's. And three of them actually have very iconic taglines. You go to a cocktail party, say, I work on Smuck, play back to the tagline, much like Campbell's. Mm, mm, Good. So that's the context. I have a. A deep passion for those iconic brands and leading them into the next chapter of growth. The responsibility and the burden on those brands to continuously evolve to the changing needs and wants of consumers in order to minimize the need for private brands. So if you're looking at a category where private brands have flourished, I would argue if we hold up the mirror, it's probably because traditional brands have failed consumers along the way. And commoditization is an outcome of a brand's failure to continuously evolve and remain agile and responsive to changing consumer needs. So Bird's Eye, as an example, was in a category Frozen Vegetables, the most commoditized category I've ever worked on. For all intents and purposes, there's no trade secrets on broccoli and peas.
- [21:53]
Sarah Hofstetter
Right.
- [21:54]
Risa Cratella
And private label was the largest player in the category. Reinvigorating Bird's Eye was not about educating People that vegetables are good for you, or about making the perfect florette of broccoli. Reinvigorating Bird's Eye was about addressing the number one consumer barrier that competition had not, which is, I don't like how vegetables taste. And so being able to have a thought leadership position and overcoming that barrier is not something that private label, you know, with its fragmentation and the role it played in the category had the ability to do. And that is where we were able to break through and demonstrate to retailers that brands had a role in the category. But I do think to be stewards for the category, we have to give the appropriate and deserved recognition to the role that private label plays. And, and if that role is growing at the expense of, you know, we're diminishing relevance for brands, then that's our responsibility as brand leaders to fix that.
- [22:57]
Sarah Hofstetter
I mean, I think what you're doing with cooking sauce is just that in and of itself is just changing the face of the aisle in and of itself. Staying in the soup aisle, still being a sauce and acknowledging what it is, but acknowledging that only Campbell's can be bringing it is probably a really good representation of, of that. When you're Rao's and congratulations on it being a billion dollar brand's, freaking awesome. But when you are Rao's and you've got so many unique elements to. I'm not giving away the secret recipe, but you know, the sourcing, the whole end to end of Rao's, that's harder to replicate. When you're in more of a commoditized business, it does change the game. I think a Bird's Eye example is phenomenal.
- [23:36]
Rachel Tipograph
One of your insights, you said, like, essentially, I'm going to boil it down. Brands can get lazy and they need to take responsibility for.
- [23:47]
Sarah Hofstetter
Not Campbell's brands, baby, no, no.
- [23:51]
Rachel Tipograph
But they need to take responsibility for not innovating. So let's, let's talk about innovation. Innovation can be really expensive. It could take a whole long time and the world is changing at a speed that is completely unprecedented. So when you think about product innovation, I love hearing some of your lessons from what you've been through. How do you think people today should approach product innovation in such a volatile world with such major stakeholders between brand, manufacturer, retailer, consumer, and even in some industries, there could be a third party because of regulation.
- [24:28]
Risa Cratella
Three basic principles come to mind in terms of how you approach innovation. First, and this seems so obvious, but I've gotten it wrong. I've been a part of companies that got it wrong. Like you have to start with a consumer led insight. You have to start with fulfilling an unmet need, not what can we make in our plants and how can we convince consumers they need it? Which again doesn't sound like a 400 level class in college. It sounds very basic, but it's actually a pitfall for many companies and brands. So starting with what is the consumer led insight, what is the need we are fulfilling that is unmet today? Secondly is right to win. I do think as an industry and companies I've been a part of, we're pretty good at talking about the brand's right to win. Often overlooked is, I will call it like the structural right to win, particularly with route to market. You may have a brand that has the right to win in a particular channel, in a particular geography. With a certain consumer cohort, you still have to have the mechanisms to get that product from point A to point B to drive back to like the point on physical availability, having the right pricing structure, etc. So the right to win for the brand as well as I'll call it the route to market. And then third, and you mentioned this, that is sufficient resources to drive awareness in trial, right? Companies are very pressured. Our P and LS are pressured. We're in some cases certain businesses struggling to have investment sufficiency to protect the core or elevate the core. So then to burden a P and L or a business with also supporting innovation on top of it can be challenging. It's especially expensive, as we know, to drive innovation if you're trying to create a new consumer behavior. So resource deficiency is critical. I have unfortunately been a part of innovation launches where we had the consumer insight, had the right to win, both brand and structurally, but failed to have the right investment to drive consumer awareness and trial. A fourth one, which is less than I guess you could argue it might be, the fourth innovation principle is customer partnership. We still have a gatekeeper who has to nod along and retailers were asking them for shelf space. Now certainly the digital shelf has made those barriers of like shelf space. They've reduced the barriers a bit. But having retailer support from your top trusted partners is also, in my experience, very, very critical to the ultimate success of an innovation. Particularly if you're doing something very new that requires patience. You have to ask from the outset for patience. You can't just expect it.
- [27:24]
Rachel Tipograph
I feel the framework you just cited also could be applied to other categories like as you were talking, I was thinking through the lens of software, because that's my business and everything you said Is accurate. Well, Risa, we gotta ask you our famous last question, which is, what's the bravest thing you've ever done?
- [27:40]
Risa Cratella
So a little context for your audience. I am a Caucasian woman. I do not identify as a member of the LGBTQ community. I grew up in a household with two English speaking parents. We had, I would say, you know, a middle income lifestyle. I haven't had the burden of being required to be brave to get through life because that's what comes with privilege. The way I describe myself is to ground us in, yes, I am a woman, but inherently I consider myself a privileged person. And I haven't encountered anything as a human walking on earth that required me to have bravery for survival or even to thrive. So I consider it my responsibility to be brave. And that's what comes with privilege. If you are privileged, you have a responsibility to be brave and be a voice for people that don't have the bandwidth to be brave for others because they're just trying to be brave to survive. And it's hard for me to articulate like a moment or an event that I feel like I could speak to that bravery. But I think of bravery more is like you get up every day, you brush your teeth, you drink your coffee, and you put on your bravery. Like, bravery is something that you wear. And I approach every day like that. And at this point in my career, it's. It's a responsibility. If it's also my purpose is how to be brave for others, especially when they can't find that bravery. And it goes a little bit back to where we started. That is how I approach creating psychological and emotional safety for the people around me, peers, sometimes leaders, and certainly the teams that work with me every day.
- [29:43]
Sarah Hofstetter
As someone who has the privilege to see you in action, I can certainly say you definitely wear your bravery to work every day. I think that might be the most thoughtful answer we have ever had to this question where I had close to 300 episodes. And we've gotten some great answers, but I think this might be the most thoughtful one. So thank you.
- [30:03]
Risa Cratella
Thank you.
- [30:04]
Rachel Tipograph
Yeah. Thank you, Risa.
- [30:05]
Risa Cratella
My pleasure. Thank you, ladies.
- [30:08]
Rachel Tipograph
If you like what you heard and you want to check out more episodes from great leaders at Campbell's, we've had a few over the years, but in particular, I suggest you go check out the duel episode we did with Jan delucan and Mike Pearson. And don't forget, tell a friend, write a review. Thanks for listening.
- [30:37]
LinkedIn Advertiser
Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard but not the pipeline? That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in dashboard Confessions.
- [30:47]
My boss asked for results so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had.
- [30:52]
Impressions Cut the bull Spend See revenue, not just reach LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad NETWORKS. Advertise on LinkedIn spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.
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Jackie Cooper
hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.