Jim Lecinski on the New Zero Moment of Truth in the AI Era

Summary

---

BRAVE COMMERCE (Adweek)

Episode: Jim Lecinski on the New Zero Moment of Truth in the AI Era
Date: May 19, 2026
Hosts: Rachel Tipograph (MikMak Founder & CEO), Sarah Hofstetter (Profitero President)
Guest: Jim Lecinski (Clinical Professor of Marketing, Kellogg School of Management; former Google executive)

---

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation with Jim Lecinski, the original creator of the "Zero Moment of Truth" (ZMOT) concept, discussing how this framework for understanding consumer behavior has evolved in the AI era. Rachel Tipograph and Sarah Hofstetter explore with Jim the current state of consumer discovery, the complexities of today’s digital landscape, and practical guidance for CMOs making marketing and organizational decisions amid new AI capabilities, retail media, and ever-fragmenting discovery channels.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of the Zero Moment of Truth (ZMOT)

• ZMOT Context & Definition
  • ZMOT describes the stage between stimulus (internal or external) and the "first moment of truth" (purchase decision at point of sale), where consumers actively seek information before buying.
  • Consumer journey used to be linear: Stimulus → First Moment (purchase) → Second Moment (product experience).
  • Now, with the internet and search, a critical phase of research and discovery occurs prior to the purchase decision.
  • Quote:

    “We started to identify, you know, in that kind of middle 2000s that it wasn’t so simple, right? That there was actually something happening before the first moment, first moment minus one, why we called it zero moment.” — Jim Lecinski, [05:45]

• Historical Analogs
  • Even pre-internet, people consulted guides, lists (e.g., Michelin Guide, Oprah’s “favorite things”) before purchasing—an offline ZMOT.
• Second Moment of Truth
  • Critical to remember post-purchase experience: does the product deliver on promises?
  • Quote:

    “…we all shouldn’t forget the second moment of truth, which is when you take the thing home to use it, does it actually deliver on all of the brand promises?” — Jim Lecinski, [08:31]

---

2. Where Does ZMOT Happen Now? (2026 Perspective)

• Discovery is Fragmented:
  • Search (Google and others) still plays a big part but is only a piece of the discovery puzzle.
  • Social media and mobile are now central. Reddit, TikTok, Instagram, and possibly future platforms shape discovery.
  • Quote:

    “No doubt search still matters...But I think that's obviously hugely grown in importance and I think most marketers understand this... some kind of combination of Google properties and meta properties... often anchor their plan to win the zero moment of truth.” — Jim Lecinski, [09:18]

• Retail Media Networks:
  • Brands must address retailer demands to invest in proprietary media, which are positioning themselves as new ZMOT environments.
• Word-of-Mouth & Influencer Expansion:
  • Traditional word-of-mouth still critical.
  • Now amplified via influencers: both macro and the new wave of micro/nano influencers.
  • Quote:

    “Plain old human to human word of mouth mattered 100 years ago, 25 years ago, and we shouldn't forget that that matters today. And then maybe a form of amplified word of mouth are both influencers and then micro. And I guess we're now talking about nano influencers as well.” — Jim Lecinski, [10:25]

---

3. Budget Allocation and ZMOT

• Framework for Marketers:
  • Don’t start with channels or vehicles. Identify your ZMOT moments for your brand—what questions are consumers asking? Where are those questions being asked and answered?
  • Tools like "Answer the Public" can help brands map out the questions that represent their brand’s zero moments.
  • Sequence of analysis:
    1. Which ZMOT questions are most/least frequently asked?
    2. Where does your brand have a stronger/weaker “right to win” for those questions?
    3. Where is the conversation happening (TikTok, retail media, etc.)?
    4. Allocate resources accordingly.
  • Quote:

    “Notice I wouldn't start with the media vehicle and the budgeting...What are questions that are more frequently asked in the zero moment versus infrequently asked? And which of those do I have a stronger right to win and a weaker right to win?...If it in fact is on Lowe's or Dollar General retail media network, or if it's on TikTok, that's then in proportion where I would start to think about allocating my assets.” — Jim Lecinski, [11:24]

---

4. AI’s Impact on ZMOT and Marketing

• AI for Consumers:
  • More consumers are embracing AI tools for discovery — for example, Google’s AI Overviews and Gemini Live, which can visually diagnose real-world problems.
  • Memorable Story:
    Jim describes his 85-year-old mother using Gemini Live to diagnose and fix a plumbing issue by identifying the part she needed—demonstrating AI as a practical ZMOT tool for even non-technologists.

    “She found it incredibly useful...Gemini Live found it and she was all ready to, by the way, buy a new faucet and turns out she just needed a new part from Kohler, then went on Kohler.com, ordered it, called her local plumber who came in and installed the whole thing.” — Jim Lecinski, [16:59]

• AI for Brands:
  • Marketers can use AI to enhance consumer journey mapping and persona creation, but it should complement—not replace—traditional consumer research.
  • Brands like Procter & Gamble now supply managers with AI-driven audience personas as a desk reference.
  • Quote:

    "But of course now there's a growing body of research that says we could create either digital twins which represent or replicate...individuals. But more often what we're seeing...is Personas which represent clusters, segments or groups of people...brand managers now have target audience Personas on their desk." — Jim Lecinski, [19:25]

• Mutual Empowerment:
  AI is empowering both consumers and marketers at key zero moments, advancing mutual understanding and connection.

---

5. Strategic Guidance for CMOs

• Responding to AI and Fragmentation:
  • Marketers must balance “one to all” (mass marketing) with personalization, and “brand-out” push with peer-to-peer, influencer-led, and helpful content.
  • Both old and new methods must coexist; nothing gets left behind, but new tools are layered on.
  • Quote:

    “I still need to be good at one to all and I still need to be good at brand owned messaging and I need to be good at peer to peer messaging, social influencers and personalized messaging.” — Jim Lecinski, [21:49]

• Allocating Resources & Organizational Planning:
  • CMOs should organize teams based on consumer, category, competitor, and context understanding (the “five Cs”).
  • Make three big strategic bets (e.g., same products to new customers, new products to new customers) before drilling into tactics or detailed allocation.
  • Mix of human and AI “staff” will become more common on org charts.
  • Use a “ghost plan”: Goals, Objectives, Strategies, Tactics, Budget, Timing, Owner.
  • Quote:

    “By the way, those resources could be humans or AI agents or some combination thereof on my org chart.” — Jim Lecinski, [24:04]

---

6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Original Career Leap:

  “...the bravest thing that I did was leave the advertising business after 18 years...and kind of took a arguably blind faith leap to enter...this digital thing...a lot of people in what we now call traditional media looked at me and said, you're crazy. Like, why would you do that?” — Jim Lecinski, [25:17]

• On AI Creating New ZMOTs:

  “That's a zero moment...my mother armed with AI and you have the P&G brand manager or the Kohler brand manager armed with AI, both trying to help meet in the middle.” — Jim Lecinski, [19:59]

• On Layering Marketing Trends:

  “Old trends and old foundations don't go away. New stuff just gets stacked and added on top of it.” — Jim Lecinski, [22:18]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• ZMOT Definition and history: [05:45] – [08:31]
• Where ZMOT Happens Today: [08:52] – [10:54]
• Retail Media & Budget Framework: [10:57] – [13:09]
• AI’s Influence on ZMOT (with the plumbing story): [16:02] – [17:29]
• AI-powered personas and research: [19:00] – [20:11]
• Implications for CMO Strategy: [20:11] – [24:04]
• Organizational Adaptation (“ghost plan” and team structure): [22:43] – [25:05]
• Jim’s Bravest Professional Move: [25:17] – [26:35]

---

Takeaways

• The Zero Moment of Truth is more relevant than ever, but is increasingly fragmented and tech-driven.
• Successful marketers today must map the questions and platforms defining their brand’s ZMOT moments and allocate resources accordingly.
• AI is fundamentally changing how both consumers and marketers gather and act on information during the decision journey.
• CMOs should balance legacy marketing tactics with new tools, grounded in robust consumer and category understanding, and be open to organizational evolution—including the inclusion of AI as functional team members.

---

Closing Sentiment

Jim Lecinski’s frameworks and anecdotes provide a clear, actionable roadmap for leaders navigating today’s evolving ZMOT landscape. Whether you’re a brand, retailer, or agency marketer, understanding and winning the ZMOT—now increasingly shaped by AI and digital discovery—is more critical (and complex) than ever.

---

Transcript

[Acast Host]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Alexander Fairweather]

I'm Alexander Fairweather, raised by one of the world's great creative geniuses, John Chamberlain, on his famous foam couches. Now I'm on the couch again with today's boldest creative minds for conversations that will spark your creativity and give you the courage to create something new. On the couch. Launches May 19 with John Gray of Ghetto Gastro, whose food will make you rethink who belongs at the table. Season 1 Daniel Arsham, Alexander Wang, Annabelle Seldorf and more. Subscribe wherever you stream and follow along at John Chamberlain Estate.

[Acast Host]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

[Dashboard Confessions Narrator]

I remember telling my boss it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it it wasn't.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Cut the bull. Spend LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

[Jim Liszinski]

Notice I wouldn't start with the media vehicle and the budgeting. Rachel. Business school professors love the two by two. So I'm going to say, what are questions that are more frequently asked in the zero moment versus infrequently asked? And which of those do I have? A stronger right to win and a weaker right to win? So now I've got my stronger right to win. More frequently asked. And now I'm going to say where are people asking those and answering those. And if it in fact is on Lowe's or Dollar General retail media network, or if it's on TikTok, that's then in proportion where I would start to think about allocating my assets. Ergs, budget, staff, resources, etc.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Welcome to today's episode of Creative Commerce. I'm Sarah Hofstetter.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And I'm Rachel Tippograph. And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brand. Sarah, I feel like we should spend this episode confusing listeners with acronyms, industry acronyms.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Well, it's different than the ones we usually use, but it's actually surprising to me that we haven't used this before because when we talk to practitioners as guests, we end up talking about PDPs

[Rachel Tippograph]

and CPCs and now UCPs.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Yes, well, we could be talking to people on Amazon and we can talk about crapping out or asins. But today we're going to talk about something that was invented only maybe 20 years ago, but really changed the way account planners and brand planners go about thinking about the entire consumer journey. And that is the zero moment of truth, or more affectionately known as zmod. And for those of you who are on the other side of 50, if you were in school and you were learning about brand planning, you would learn about your first moment of truth and your second moment of truth. But what the. The dawn of the Internet and particularly search, brought us is the Zmont, the point where you actually, before you ever get exposed to the brand, that. That it shows up for you before

[Jim Liszinski]

you even expect it to.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Yep. Think about your own social media behaviors. You're on Instagram, you were having a conversation with your spouse, and boom, all of a sudden that office chair was there that you never searched for the zero moment of truth. And today we are going to have the creator, the person who coined this zero moment of truth, which was how many years ago, Sarah?

[Sarah Hofstetter]

I think it was a little more than 20, or maybe it was about 20, but it was a while ago, and it was through the lens of Google, which is where Jim was working at the time. But I think that the way that it has evolved and the way consumers have evolved has changed the breadth of what that actually means.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Absolutely. And so it feels so apt to bring Jim onto the show to talk about what zero moment of truth means in really the AI era that we're living in. So, without further ado, let's hear from him.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Somebody who has had a opportunity to work with some of the biggest brands and now teach the next generation of leaders is Jim Liszinski, clinical professor of marketing at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. Try to say that fast, it does not work. But more importantly, one of the OGs of digital marketing and brand discovery in this millennia. Jim, I am so thrilled that you agreed to join us on the podcast today. Welcome.

[Jim Liszinski]

Yeah, my pleasure. Hi, Sarah. Hi, Rachel. Great to be with you today.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Let's go into what was so og, and at least for me, you know, having been at 360i in the early 2000s, one of the most probably famous acronyms that we use, and there were so many with SEM and SEO and everything like that. But you coined the term Zmont at a time when search was the primary way that consumers inform decisions. Zero moment of truth. For. For those of you who were born after the year 2000, if you were defining it today, what would you change given all the different mechanisms of discovery?

[Jim Liszinski]

Yeah. So quick refresh of the concept for your viewers, for your listeners. What we identified then and we'll talk about is continue to be relevant today is that there's an important moment in consumer path to purchase, decision making, consumer journeys, as we call it, that happens after stimulus, but before what was then and now known as the first moment of truth. So stimulus can either be external or internal. So I don't know, I get a flat tire. I now need new tires. What's a good brand of tires, right? So that's a internal stimulus. On the other hand, an external stimulus can be, I might see a TV commercial for, I don't know, Michelin or Bridgestone tires. That makes me then think, oh, maybe I should consider new tires. Right? So some external or internal stimulus happens and then historically that would move to the first moment of truth, coined by Procter and Gamble. A.G. lafley wrote about this in his great book. But that would be you would go to the tire shop or to your car dealer or to the corner garage and you would ask the fella there or the woman there, like, hey, what kind of tires do you recommend? And then you would consummate the deal and you would buy the tires in that first moment of truth. And so, you know, we would always talk a lot in retail and commerce, E commerce, as you guys well know about. Like, you know, you have to kind of create the demand with the stimulus and then you have to capture the demand. Win at the shelf, right? Like win in that first moment at the point of sale. But we started to identify, you know, in that kind of middle 2000s that it wasn't so simple, right? That there was actually something happening before the first moment, first moment minus one, why we called it zero moment. And that is that, you know, people were getting information after they thought about or decided they needed to new tires, but before they went to the tire shop. Search was one way to do that. Obviously, early forms of social media was a way to do that. But by the way, that's not anything new, right? Like those of us old enough, remember if you were going to go on a vacation to Rome, you'd go to the library and you'd check out the Michelin Guide to Rome and read about the hotels before you would book the hotel. That was zero moment analog behavior, right? Or maybe even if you roll back the clock, you know, Martha Stewart and Oprah had their lists of good things, right? Like that was zero moment before you went to JCPenney's to actually buy the thing. And so, you know, we did a whole bunch of research that showed that this was real and grow and prominent and important. And so that's what kind of prompted us to do that. And we should probably just sort of end that little monologue, lecture speech, sorry, by saying, sure, that might drive you to purchase and you buy the thing, but we all shouldn't forget the second moment of truth, which is when you take the thing home to use it, does it actually deliver on all of the brand promises? And so that's sort of the. Just the quick arc of it then. And you know, we can talk much more about it, but obviously it continues, I'd argue, growing in importance today.

[Rachel Tippograph]

You talked a lot about what the media environments and discovery environments once were. We're living in unprecedented times. There's more fragmentation in consumer discovery than ever before. So where do you suspect the zero moments of truth happen? Like right now, Q2, 2026 for consumers?

[Jim Liszinski]

Well, look, I mean, no doubt search still matters. You know, I had a conversation the other day about pogs with a chief marketing officer and she goes, what's pogs? I said, plain old Google search. Billions of these happen, right? Like, yes, that still matters. And you know, if you're not above the fold on the first page, like it 360i days, right, or performance days, you're still not in the zero moment conversation then or now. Obviously social and social and mobile kind of interconnected have grown since then. Maybe some of the networks have changed. Now we talk a lot about Reddit and we talk about TikTok and Instagram and, you know, some of those things and who knows what the next wave of social networks will be. But I think that's obviously hugely grown in importance and I think most marketers understand this and you know, as a result, some kind of combination of Google properties and meta properties often anchor. Right, like their plan to win the zero moment of truth. So those for sure. I would also say that there are, I don't know, do we want to really, Rachel, call these emerging or emergent. But we can talk about LLMs, we could talk about retail media networks. Oh, by the way, plain old human to human word of mouth mattered 100 years ago, 25 years ago, and we shouldn't forget that that matters today. And then maybe a form of amplified word of mouth are both influencers and then micro. And I guess we're now talking about nano influencers as well, right? Like, oh, you're going to Rome. Let me tell you where not to stay and where to stay.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Rome is getting a lot of airtime right now.

[Jim Liszinski]

Yeah, there you go. Right.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Of course, I'm a cmo and I'm thinking about the zero moment of truth bias from the show of being focused on commerce. We get a lot of CMOs coming on here where they talk about the pressures that they feel from retailers to continue to invest in retail media networks and retail media networks positioning themselves as zero moments of truth. If I want to think about budget allocation and zero moments of truth, like, how should I go about this?

[Jim Liszinski]

Well, I mean, I think the disciplined way to go about this, some might even say scientific way, is to start by identifying what are those zero moments for my brand. And there are, you know, sort of proprietary, internal, sophisticated ways that a brand can do that, commissioning their own research, ethnographies, focus groups, et cetera. And. Or there are kind of what our British friends would call cheap and cheerful ways to do this. A tool that I've always loved is answer the public. So you go to answer the public and you put in, you know, lawnmowers to change our category. And, you know, it gives you that lovely, like, flower, daisy, tulip, wheel of like a thousand questions. Well, those questions, right, are all, all zero moment questions. So now you start to say, okay, am I as a brand, if I'm a chief marketing officer, am I well positioned to answer those questions like, do I have content? Do I have actual answers? Do I have products that. That solve those? And then where are people asking those questions and going for their answers? So notice I wouldn't start with the media vehicle and the budgeting. Rachel, Business school professors love the two by two. So I'm going to say, what are questions that are more frequently asked in the zero moment versus infrequently asked? And which of those do I have a stronger right to win and a weaker right to win? So now I've got my stronger right to win more frequently asked. And now I'm going to say where are people asking those and answering those? And if it in fact is on Lowe's or Dollar General retail media network, or if it's on TikTok, that's then in proportion where I would start to think about allocating my assets. Ergs, budget, staff resources, et cetera.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

You just dropped a million names of, like, different ways of thinking, channels, platforms. No, no, no, don't. Nothing to apologize for. It's actually, it's bringing the complexity to life, doing so through the lens of a journey, which makes a ton of sense, but something that's like totally screwed up. The journey, I guess, if you will, is AI and marketing. On the one hand, there's obviously every marketing platform and such is aiing itself, if you will. A lot of that is focused on content and animation and almost seeing just another floor being added to the silos of each different platform that exists in the world.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard but not the pipeline? That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out.

[Dashboard Confessions Narrator]

Dashboard Confessions My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had. Impressions.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Cut the bull, spend, See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad NETWORKS. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

[Warner Brothers Discovery Advertising Narrator]

This message is brought to you by Warner Brothers Discovery Advertising and this is more than an ad. This is an invitation to be part of the stories the world can't stop watching. To connect with moments that dominate the conversation. To participate in culture, not just advertise around it. With a most sought after ip, passionate audiences and an advanced AI powered foundation, WBD advertising transforms attention into influence and impressions into outcomes. This is innovation. This is impact. This is opportunity. This is Warner Brothers Discovery Advertising. Visit advertising.wbd.com to learn more.

[Acast Advertising Narrator]

Quick question when was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience, it's part of it. With acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format, then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions, you're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com advertising advertise

[Sarah Hofstetter]

where do you think AI can meaningfully improve decision making? Not just improving on the executional side?

[Jim Liszinski]

We're seeing AI emerge to help decision making both on the consumer side as well as on the brand marketer side. Good marketers start from external back in from the consumer back. So let's start our answer to your excellent question, Sarah there. So consumers are increasingly learning how to use these tools and whether and when to trust these tools to help them get answers to those kind of zero moments. So it may be as simple as AI overviews in Google is often a first exposure for folks or Gemini. And Gemini Live, by the way, is a eye opener. When I showed my 85 year old mother that when she had a plumbing problem you could turn the camera on your phone, let it see the pipes under the sink and talk to it about the problem. Right. And then say what do I need here and who should I call? Right. That's a zero moment. Right. So it could be that.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

How did that go? Just unpack that little story.

[Jim Liszinski]

Yeah. First of all, she was sort of wowed by the party trick. As humans, once you get over the amazingness of the technology, she found it incredibly useful. Turns out that she had sort of a, when you pull the faucet out of the mount, like to use it as a sprayer, that faucet hangs under your sink and there was a leak in that and Gemini Live found it and she was all ready to, by the way, buy a new faucet and turns out she just needed a new part from Kohler, then went on Kohler.com ordered it, called her local plumber who came in and installed the whole thing.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

If only we could figure out an attribution model for that one. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take us off on a tangent there, but I do love the real world stories when an 85 year old mom is trying to diagnose her plumbing problems with

[Jim Liszinski]

Gemini, I'm sure it was last click attribution by all the people in that chain. But anyway, that's a story for another day. Often people start with AI overviews, then with one of the three frontier model apps of choice, often a free model. Consumers then migrating to paid models, obviously. Then as you mentioned, there's AI ified experiences on brand websites. So I could go to lowe's.com and they have Milo. Right. Which is their AI kind of chat assistant there. IKEA has this, I mean like Ralph Lauren has, everybody increasingly has this sort of a thing. So that's often where consumers are turning to, to kind of get their ideas and this leads to. I'm sure you want to talk a little bit about later. What does that mean for. Well, sometimes it's called Geo, sometimes called aeo. Some people think they're the same, some people think it's different. What should brands know about AEO and geo? But so consumers are increasingly becoming armed and informed in the zero moment now likewise, brands can use AI to help enhance, I'm not going to say, replace their existing forms of path to purchase understanding. So obviously we can do diary research, we could do ethnographies, we could do shop alongs or ride alongs. Right. Like. And we could and should continue to do that like go observe shoppers. Both other brand loyalists, my brand loyalists in category and out of category. But of course now there's a growing body of research that says we could create either digital twins which represent or replicate, I put it in air quotes, individuals. But more often what we're seeing, I think more frequently is Personas which represent clusters, segments or groups of people. And again, I'm being very careful, Rachel and Sarah, to say that does not replace human research and interaction. But increasingly we see brands and by the way, Procter and Gamble has talked about this publicly disclosure, I've worked with them a little bit on this. But brand managers now have target audience Personas on their desk. So it sort of keeps, you know, us from being in our ivory tower in our office. And we can use AI as we're thinking about how to put these programs together. So now you have my mother armed with AI and you have the P and G brand manager or the Kohler brand manager in that case armed with AI, both trying to help meet in the middle. Brand meets consumer need AI on both ends.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

That was a serious unpacking. So how do CMOs rethink the way they go to market as a result of these massive changes?

[Jim Liszinski]

Well, look, I mean I think we are in the sort of long term arc. Another thing that marketing professors have the luxury of doing is, you know, picking our heads up beyond sort of today's news and today's new app or ad feature in the middle of two long arcs in the history of marketing. Right. One is it's moving from one to all mass marketing only. And for all your how brands grow Byron Sharp acolytes listening. I will say for the record, yes, that still matters. Mental availability and personalization. Tailored messaging one to few, perhaps even in some cases one to one. Right. So we went from entirely one to all. We're increasingly moving to that plus more tailored messaging. And then the second sort of long arc that we're in the middle of is the messaging being brand out, brand determined, brand driven, interruptive in many, you know we now interrupt your like soap opera in order to give you this word from olay to now being part of the conversation. Helpful, not interruptive. And that by the way was one of sort of Google, Larry and Sergey. Big insights was like advertising could be helpful messaging, not just interruptive messaging. And then it's not just in the brand voice, but it could be in a influencer, in another human's voice. So we've got sort of those two long term arcs going on like this. And so if I'm a chief marketing officer, I need to be sort of aware of what I'll call the forward momentum or inertia of those two trends. And one of the interesting things about marketing is old trends and old foundations don't go away. New stuff just gets stacked and added on top of it. Right. I still need to be good at one to all and I still need to be good at brand owned messaging and I need to be good at peer to peer messaging, social influencers and personalized messaging. So I want to think about how I engage with LLMs in these zero moments of truth or AI more broadly in light of what those long term arc trends mean and likely, then, you know, if you allow me to mix metaphors like where the puck is going on, both of those.

[Rachel Tippograph]

So based on where the puck is going and all the conversations you're having with CMOs, how do you think organizationally CMOS should be thinking about their team structure given these changes?

[Jim Liszinski]

Of course, we should recognize here that certainly marketing leaders and frankly team leaders in any function in an organization are being tasked increasingly with the famous CFO mantra, do more with less. No, you don't get 200 new heads this year, you get two. And no, your target isn't flat, it's 3x what you think you could do from your bottoms up. Good luck. This is sort of the reality that we're all facing here. So how do you organize your team along those lines? Well, again, team should be organized based on what do I understand about the consumer, what do I understand about the category, what do I understand about the competitors and the context? Are interest rates rising or falling? These kinds of things? Are home sales increasing or decreasing? So this is what we teach at Kellogg is sort of the famous five Cs, you know, context, competitors category. Right? That kind of stuff. So you need to know all of those things and then place, I always would say, three big strategic bets before we get to like tactics and budget allocation implementation. How are you going to grow this business? Are we going to sell more of the same stuff to our current customers? Are we going to sell more of the same stuff to new customers? Dutch Bros. Has made that bet, right? They say, hey, we're selling a lot of these dirty soda drinks in the west, but we don't really have any business in the central part or east part. So same stuff to new customers is like their bet. Or maybe we sell new stuff to new customers customers. So we have to have three of those strategic bets in light of the context. And then based on that, now I say how do I allocate my resources in part. Rachel, what you said, heads, team, staff. And by the way, those resources could be humans or AI agents or some combination thereof on my org chart. But the heads, the budget along the way needs to be allocated there. And then we need to have obviously the KPIs, the metrics, to track progress along the way. And so, you know, really starting with that sort of. We call it a ghost plan is how we teach it here at Kellogg. Goals, Objectives, Strategies, Tactics, Budget, timing. Owner.

[Rachel Tippograph]

I love all the frameworks that you're using to give CMOS clarity on how to think about this. We have to ask you our famous last question, which is, what's the bravest thing you've ever done?

[Jim Liszinski]

Well, I've done maybe a few crazy or personal things. Not like jumping out of an airplane or anything. Sarah. Like a friend of ours has recently done. On the professional side, I would say the bravest thing that I did was leave the advertising business after 18 years, you know, and I was at Ogilvy and Y and R&EURORSCG and DDB and, you know, really enjoyed the advertising agency business and kind of took a arguably blind faith leap to enter, you know, as I know, both of you did enter this digital thing, which was literally at the time, when I joined Google, late 2005, early 2006, it was like 1% of all media spending. And a lot of people in what we now call traditional media looked at me and said, you're crazy. Like, why would you do that? That's like a career detour. And I can tell you, my wife and I had long deliberations about whether that was a good idea or a stupid, crazy idea to leave traditional advertising and move over into digital media at Google. And turns out that that was both a brave and a good decision in hindsight. So, yeah, I would say professionally, that career shift, right, radical career shift, was arguably professionally the bravest thing that I've done.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

Well, on behalf of the entire industry, I thank you for making that choice.

[Jim Liszinski]

Thank you, Jim.

[Sarah Hofstetter]

I feel like I actually want to go back to school just to take your classes. This was so helpful. I feel like you are right now in Billboard for continuing it. So thank you so much for the generosity of your time and for the simplicity with which you broke down some very complex areas.

[Jim Liszinski]

Good. Well, thank you for the invitation. Good to be with you. Thanks Sarah. Thanks Rachel.

[Rachel Tippograph]

If you like what you heard and you want to check out other episodes that really get into more of an analyst professor perspective, go check out episodes we did in the past with Sutrita from Forrester or Andrew Lipsman, who's now on his own as an analyst in the industry. And don't forget, tell a friend, write a review. Thanks for listening.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard but not the pipeline? That's bullspin and marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

[Dashboard Confessions Narrator]

My boss asked for results so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

Impressions Cut the bull spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad NETWORKS. Advertise on LinkedIn, spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

[Acast Host]

ACAST powers the World's best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Amy Archer]

A new season of 90 Day is upon us and Little Miss Recap has you covered. My name is Amy Archer. I'm a writer, I'm a Libra, I'm a mom, and most importantly, I'm a lady of a certain age. I grew up on a steady diet of soap operas and I've now taken that lens and applied it to reality television. Together with a bunch of my friends, we talk about some of our favorite reality shows including sister wives, 90 day, fiance, love is Blind, and more. And don't forget Reality Roundup on Fridays where we talk about the latest happening on and off screen of our favorite trash reality shows. Come and join us at Little Miss Recap. That's Little Miss Recap. Listen anywhere you get podcasts.

[Acast Host]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

[Jackie Cooper]

hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.