← BRAVE COMMERCE
BRAVE COMMERCE
Mondelez's Mindy Shaltry & Wes Saraceni on Breaking Down the Marketing and Sales Divide
00:29:27
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- [00:03]
Wes Saraceni
It takes tough conversations because, like, we're going to be making decisions that, like, some people are just not going to be happy with. But Mindy and I are going to work together because we're friends, and we're going to, like, pick our battles, and we're going to try and push the business where it needs to go. So I think that's our success for us.
- [00:17]
Mindy
It also has to do with letting go of the concept of turf we try to not be precious about. Well, this is your area. This is my area. Because of how the consumer journey has evolved. You have to let some of that go. And we say, okay, we're going to, together, as a team, make the best decision for the situation this brand is in. That's how we're going to kind of approach this.
- [00:41]
Sarah Hofstadter
Welcome to today's episode of Free of Commerce. I'm Sarah Hofstadter.
- [00:45]
Rachel Tippograph
And I'm Rachel Tippograph. And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brands. Sarah, you and Brian Wiener have worked together.
- [01:02]
Mindy
Together for how long?
- [01:03]
Sarah Hofstadter
26 years.
- [01:04]
Rachel Tippograph
That's longer than, I think marriages in every country.
- [01:09]
Sarah Hofstadter
That's probably not like the way we want to compare these things. I mean, he is more like a work spouse, but working. Actually, he joined the company that I met the week that his son was born, his older son. So we have been working together since our older kids were born, but Sam and his daughter Stephanie came afterwards. Yeah, it's been a long time. But having trust with the people you work with makes it so much easier to be vulnerable and also to create boundaries and be able to hold your guns without being fearful that, like, that's going to impact your job or way of working or anything like that.
- [01:45]
Rachel Tippograph
What is it between the two of you that makes both of you want to keep working together all these decades?
- [01:50]
Sarah Hofstadter
I have to say, the latest iteration with 37 archive was not necessarily originally in on it. And then he just, like, totally sucked me back in, and now I'm, like, all into it. I think a lot of it, of why we continue to work together is that we complement each other really well. And while I have plenty of professional pursuits independent of him, my board seats, my advisory roles and things like that, I do find that the intellectual sparring makes me better, and it allows me to be curious without feeling dumb. It allows me to also, like, actually, the not feeling dumb part is a really important part of it because I feel like I've already. We've already proven ourselves to each other. I was talking to somebody recently, actually this morning, and she was asking me. She's like, does it get too intense? Because anytime you talk to each other, you're always talking about work. You may be friends, but it doesn't matter because you're always talking about work. So you always have to be like, on. One of the things that's been really kind of helpful is me just saying, you know what? My brain's not interested in discussing this right now, so we're not going to talk about that. There aren't that many people you can kind of get away with saying that.
- [03:04]
Rachel Tippograph
Your spouse, your best friend, your sibling.
- [03:07]
Sarah Hofstadter
Yeah, you know what? If I said to Adam, my husband, if I said, you know what, My brain's not working. I don't want to talk about this right now. I think you'd be like, okay, but we had to talk about this.
- [03:14]
Rachel Tippograph
Like, oh, Sammy. And I pull that all the time.
- [03:17]
Sarah Hofstadter
You say, my brain doesn't want to do this 100%.
- [03:20]
Rachel Tippograph
I have no capacity to have this conversation right now.
- [03:22]
Sarah Hofstadter
Yeah.
- [03:22]
Rachel Tippograph
Because we both know if we keep going down that direction, it'll be a disaster.
- [03:27]
Sarah Hofstadter
I hear that. But think about it at work. How often if somebody came to your office and said to you, use it, like, hey, can you give me an idea on the forecast for the quarter? And it'd be like, you know, my brain's not in the mood to do that right now. You'd be like, get the out of here. Like, that's it, that's it. It's over. Right.
- [03:42]
Rachel Tippograph
But I do think it's important to understand, but as a leader, how to get the most out of your team. And for example, I know who's an early riser on my team versus who works late.
- [03:55]
Sarah Hofstadter
Oh, you've got to know that.
- [03:56]
Rachel Tippograph
Yeah. And I'll schedule accordingly.
- [03:58]
Sarah Hofstadter
Yeah.
- [03:59]
Rachel Tippograph
For example, everyone knows I'm an early riser, and by 4pm my brain is mush. So just, like, don't have a difficult conversation with me after 4pm with all
- [04:08]
Sarah Hofstadter
the conversation about AI and tech and all this other stuff, the criticality of understanding relationships and understanding. AC Eggleston Bracey said this on our podcast many years ago. What makes you tick and what ticks you off? And I actually wrote that down and kept it on a sticky until the stickiness wore off. And obviously, I've committed it to memory and with the appropriate credit. But I think it makes a difference when you know that about yourself and you know that about the people that you work with ultimately drives the right kinds of partnerships.
- [04:40]
Rachel Tippograph
Yeah. That is built by working together, especially through challenges and just really the. The nature of time passing. And so, on that note, we are going to bring onto the show Mindy and Wes, who have an incredible working partnership at Mondelez, and you will all be witness to their chemistry and how that facilitates true growth for the business today. We'll go. Wes Saraceni, VP of Consumer Experience, us at Mondelez. Hello, Mindy and Wes.
- [05:13]
Mindy
Hi, there.
- [05:14]
Wes Saraceni
Hey.
- [05:14]
Mindy
Thanks for having us.
- [05:15]
Rachel Tippograph
Well, we're so excited to have you. We obviously go way back with both of you through various lives. And it's interesting. We've recorded 200 plus episodes, and we rarely have had both marketing and sales represented on the show at once, which I have no idea why, but we're probably gonna get into it on the show. And at first glance, I have to guess that the reason why is because so many orgs still operate in silos where not even on the show. They want to bring them together. So why did both of you want to do this episode together?
- [05:52]
Wes Saraceni
Mindy's like the other half of my brain. So, like, this is kind of the thing, right? Marketing and sales, like left and right brain, whatever you want to call it. But, yeah, Rachel, it is rare that people like us get together in the same show. That's a problem. So it's really cool that Mindy and I are here together, because at work, this is how we are. Mindy and I are, like, always holding hands when it comes to some of the big decisions that we have to make, and that's how it should be. I'm supposed to speak for the consumer. Mindy speaks for the shopper. It's funny, those are the same person, but at organizations like ours and many others, like, we kind of think about them separate sometimes. So Mindy and I are working together to make sure that doesn't happen.
- [06:30]
Mindy
Yeah, I mean, the evolution that has happened over the past 10 years to the consumer journey, the shopper journey, whatever we want to say, it necessitates this kind of partnership, because the shopper, they're not deciding, oh, this is something I do in the upper funnel, and then here's something I'm doing when I'm actually shopping. Right. It's all the same thing to them. So what we have to do is be really deliberate about connecting those points across the shopper journey. And it's super hard. It's actually super hard in our organization. And I think the reason we're doing this is because Wes and I are both passionate about it, and we believe that Our organization needs to keep pushing in this area, and there's still a lot of people that, for us, want to keep things separate. And sometimes we have to be practical and we move on things because, you know, speed is important. But over time, we really want to bring these teams together, have these, you know, full journey plans that we're putting in front of consumers and shoppers, and be connected through that journey, right? To really drive what we think is going to be accelerated conversion for our brands and categories.
- [07:39]
Sarah Hofstadter
I'll tell you a story that probably neither of you know, but 14, 15 years ago, I was working on the Oreo brand at a digital agency, and we didn't know anything about shopper marketing because we were digital marketers. So we were just like, whatever. Consumer shopper, like, those are just interchangeable terms. And it was just. Just as like, you know, mobile was mobile, specifically just in terms of social media apps on mobile was a really big deal. And we were coming up against, like, shopper budgets and shopper agencies, and our minds were blown. And so one of the things that we did at the agency was bring in shopper marketing experts to teach us and help us understand. And so much of it to us was like, why is this not just marketing? Like, why do you need consumer marketing and shopper marketing? And, you know, here we are 14, 15 years later, and we're still trying to break that down. And it's funny because you guys particularly Montelly's International at a global level. Last week, I was in Cannes with Martin. Rachel was on one side of him, I was on the other side of
- [08:40]
Rachel Tippograph
him, and that was unplanned. He chose to sit next to us.
- [08:44]
Sarah Hofstadter
That is true. That is true. Which we definitely have to get him on the show also because we don't have enough Mondelez people that come on to brave commerce. One thing that, you know, I always found fascinating is that he's the chief marketing and sales officer, so you've got that alignment at the top. But when you kind of go down to the markets and you go down to the activation and you go down to the. The specifics, like, how do we get shit done? That's where so much of it falls apart. Just watching your chemistry, to me is like, it's so. It's so inspiring. And to me, so much of what's brought marketing and sales together. More. More lately has been this jump off of retail media. And the way you guys are talking about it, it's about just reverse engineering how humans behave regardless of where they are in the store. Like how did you become these kindred spirits?
- [09:39]
Wes Saraceni
I love the word chemistry, Mindy.
- [09:43]
Mindy
We do, yeah.
- [09:44]
Wes Saraceni
Are we work, dating?
- [09:46]
Rachel Tippograph
Yes.
- [09:47]
Wes Saraceni
First of all, let me address how we got here, and I think it has to do with a lot of trust. So, like, I remember joining the organization, like, whatever, 13 years ago, and, like, Mindy was one of the first people I met. Like, we worked in the same category as, like, abm, senior, abm, of course. Mindy being more senior, of course. And she mentored me, and we've been friends ever since. So there's like, a trust, right, that we're all trying to do the same thing. We're all in here. We spend, like, a lot of time at work with each other in some cases. You guys know this. We spend more time at work than with our families sometimes, which is kind of crazy. But, like, we are at the core, like friends, and so we can have open and honest conversations with each other. You're right, Sarah. Like, the way this whole thing manifests at the bottom, at the execution, like, the people on the ground, when it comes to those who are buying media or planning on the equity side, we're measuring with MMMs, and we're measuring the efficiency and effectiveness of that type of media. And then the same thing on the retail side, depending on how you look at it, the equity side is always going to see the national equity as performing better. And on the retail side, the same thing when you look at it from that lens. Well, of course, all the retail and shopper activation is going to work harder in the retail level. So it's like you have these two languages, right? And I think what Mindy and I have been able to do is to work together to, like, force the conversation where we're bringing both of those viewpoints and models together and making decisions outside of those two boxes. And it takes tough conversations because, like, we're going to be making decisions that, like, some people are just not going to be happy with. But Mindy and I are going to work together because we're friends and we're going to, like, pick our battles and we're going to try and push the business where it needs to go. So I think that's our success for us.
- [11:28]
Mindy
It also has to do with letting go of the concept of turf we try to not be precious about. Well, this is your area, this is my area because of how the consumer journey has evolved. Right. You have to let some of that go. And we say, okay, we're going together as a team, make the best decision for the situation. This brand is in, and that's how we're going to kind of approach this. And I think we take a little bit of inspiration from brands who are newer to the marketplace, and they never think about these things. Sometimes our organizational structure dictates decisions that we shouldn't really even be making. We're constantly challenging each other on that.
- [12:10]
Rachel Tippograph
So for your point that the. The landscape has evolved at a place like Mondelez, and I'm sure there's a lot of people who've worked there their entire career, and maybe they have a background that looks more like CPG marketers 20 years ago versus CPG marketers born today. So how are you upskilling your peers to operate in a 2026 landscape?
- [12:36]
Wes Saraceni
That's a really good question. And I think about, like, my own journey and, like, how I've. No one comes out of school knowing this stuff. You learn it, right? So, like, how did I get here? And I think one of the things that I've learned is that you have to be okay, like, feeling dumb. Seriously, you don't know. And you need to be able to have an opinion and go into a room not being an expert, because we're all learning here. And the bigger the organization, the tighter the lane becomes. And you're working in this lane, and you're kind of scared to get out of the lane because, like, you may not look like an expert. And I think, you know, a lot of us operate from fear in that way. We have to learn by doing. And it means getting involved in the conversation. It means being vulnerable, understanding that, like, if you've lived in equity world for years. Yeah. It's okay that you don't know the retail environment, but, like, step into it anyway, and that could feel uncomfortable. I think that's what Mindy and I both did. Mindy and I have not grown up as media people. We grew up as, like, brand managers. And we took a step and we started to learn about these things, and now we have, like, a really good view. But in the beginning, I could speak for myself, Mindy, but, like, I didn't know what I was talking about. Right. And I learned, and it was scary. And I think we all just, like. My advice to CPG marketers is to, like, be uncomfortable not knowing the answer, but you have to get involved because you have to experience it.
- [14:03]
Mindy
Yeah. The fear of, like, jumping into something new is definitely real. I think in large companies, because of a few things, there's language barriers. We almost, like, speak different languages when you're talking about, like, commerce versus upper funnel roas traffic share of search. Like all those things together and then how do I know which one's most important? There's not a rule book that's written around that. Things are changing very rapidly, right? And it can feel really daunting to keep up with that change. But what Wes said is the right thing. It's like you don't have to be perfect in keeping up with that change. You just have to make like a small commitment to like learning every day. And then the perfectionism. Kind of like we as brand marketers growing up in large cpg, right? You are almost trained that like you want to come into the room with answers, you want to know what's right before it goes live, right? We want to know what KPIs we're going to hit. Sometimes you have to loosen that to really succeed in these areas that are new, whether it's retail media or driving something from a digital commerce perspective. So we try to model that as like leaders in the organization and then we're trying to build the coalition of like people who will come along with us and like start to also model that because we have found that it is a bit contagious within the organization. And once you have leveraged the competitive spirit that kind of exists within our organization, hey, this person is doing something really amazing. It's not perfect but like look how they're leaning into this and learning it and then it inspires others to kind of do the same.
- [15:40]
Sarah Hofstadter
I love this. The fact that you guys are leading with psychological safety and the willingness to look dumb, if you will, creates an environment for everybody else to do that. I have to ask you because Wes, you started with the whole like not being afraid to look dumb. I, generally speaking I'm not afraid to look dumb. I do it every day and it gets, it gets easier every day. But in a large organization that's really hard to do. Was there like a moment that you were just like, you know what? Like screw it. If I don't get the answers to these questions, I'm not going to be able to move forward. And before you answer that question, I just want to give a like a big kudos to both of you because there are plenty of ABMs that go through this like you know, 18 month rotation throughout the rest of their careers and don't actually rise to that clear, differentiated leadership. So like props to both of you for not just, you know, growing up in cpg, but really leapfrogging as, as much as you had. But Wes, what was There a moment that you're just like, screw this. I'm. I'm. I'm just gonna let it all out there.
- [16:45]
Wes Saraceni
So, Mindy, when was the first time you felt like you were dumb at work?
- [16:49]
Sarah Hofstadter
Just kidding.
- [16:50]
Wes Saraceni
I'm not gonna pass it up.
- [16:52]
Mindy
This is really hard for me, personally. Like, I'm not good at this. I know it is. I want to come in. I want to have all the answers. Like, that typical person Wes, actually teaches me how to do this more. Like, I use him as I'm like, sometimes I ask myself, okay, why am I not moving forward is because I don't have the perfect answers. Like, what would other people do in this situation?
- [17:13]
Wes Saraceni
How dare you, Cindy?
- [17:14]
Mindy
I think one example for me and Wes, you were in this example is like, we were asked to kind of present a full year digital commerce plan, right, To a leadership team. And, like, I think it's so interesting when someone asks you to do that, because in an organization like Mondelez, digital commerce means, like, many different things. It means, what are we doing at Amazon? What's happening with all the omnichannel retailers that are at different stages of maturity? It means what's happening in our D2C and social commerce businesses. Right? Those are really different initiatives. And we struggled in that meeting, I think telling a clear story about what was happening with all those different things to a leadership team who thinks it's this, like, one monolithic thing that is delivering a decent amount of growth for the organization. So that was a time where it's like, we went into that meeting. I came out of it feeling a little defeated, but then it was like, a nice rallying point to be like, okay, how do we continue to, like, simplify this? Break it into pieces? And it led to this place of like, hey, we've got to get everyone in the organization more literate on these things so that we can talk about it in slightly more detail.
- [18:26]
Wes Saraceni
To be honest, that's a really great example. I remember that Another example of, like, me just being completely vulnerable is when I made the shift into what my previous job was, which is like, the kind of, like, the E. Comm. Marketing guy. I switched from brand manager of Sour Patch Kids, which is, like, the coolest job on the whole planet, by the way. Like, so cool. I encourage everyone to have that job. But then I switched over to lead marketing for E Commerce because it was new and different and I wanted to learn. And I was like, okay, the Internet's growing. Let me, like, go do that. That seems like a cool thing to Do. This is like before the pandemic, when, like, the world, you know, the rest is history. I had no idea what I was talking about and what I was doing. I really didn't. And it was a really awkward shift in my career because I was going from being, like, the lead of a brand who was supposed to know everything to literally not knowing anything. What I learned really quickly is you have to have an opinion, because that's a foundation of, like, the conversation. But you have to be wildly open to hearing the truth from experts. And that is such a weird balance to find. Right. Walking into a room not knowing everything, but having a foundational assumption and then listening, like, deeply listening. And I learned that really fast because I literally was new to everything. Search PDP content, like, all of that, the flywheel, I mean, Sarah, all the stuff you know so much about. New to me, new to me, new to me. So that was really vulnerable. But, like, I'll tell you, I think people also react really positively when you're vulnerable, and they want. Like, people intrinsically want to help. And that also surprised me. Right? So don't feel afraid to be dumb. Don't feel afraid to be vulnerable, because if you're surrounded by, like, a good. Like a good set of people, they're gonna want to help you.
- [20:20]
Sarah Hofstadter
I do believe vulnerability breeds trust. Where did you go to get your education, and where would you recommend our listeners go to get educated?
- [20:30]
Mindy
I think you have to actually practically take on a project or an initiative.
- [20:35]
Wes Saraceni
I totally agree. Yes.
- [20:37]
Mindy
You can get all the wonderful industry newsletters. Yes. Read them religiously. Go out and learn. Listen to podcasts, like, free of commerce. Like, do all of those things. But I think practically you have to take on a project in order to really learn and, like, live some of these things. I say it to my team, too. It's like, we can do the training, we can do this, we can do whatever, but you're not going to know this until you try to do it yourself. So it has to be project and experience based, in my opinion. And there's a plethora of things to do, whether you're sitting in a brand seat or a customer seat or a sales seat or honestly, like, a finance seat.
- [21:16]
Sarah Hofstadter
Right.
- [21:16]
Mindy
You can do something in this area and ask, lead with curiosity, and say, what is this doing to my business? And how can I, like, think about it differently?
- [21:25]
Wes Saraceni
This person is going to know that I'm talking about her, but this amazing woman who's now on one of our brand leads, and she did, like, a temporary assignment for like, she covered for someone who was, I think, on mat leave at the time. And I asked her if she would step in and she said, yeah, I like working with you. We can do this. And so she was there for like a few months and after, she did an amazing job, by the way. But this was like, she was like fully on the E Commerce team, doing a lot of retail media type stuff and all of that. After the assignment, I mean, she took me aside and was like, that was really a profound experience. Like, I didn't realize how different that world is. And to Mindy's point, you could talk about equity versus retail and everything, but until you've stepped into those segments, you really don't get it until you do it. So my advice is like, do it. Find a project, like Mindy said. See if you can cover for someone, get involved, because that's how you're really going to learn.
- [22:23]
Rachel Tippograph
Completely agree. You have to become a practitioner. You guys have been in the process of bringing your orgs together. What's one aha moment that unearthed as you started to bring the organizations together?
- [22:37]
Wes Saraceni
Ah, an aha moment. I think for me, Mindy did mention this already on, like, structure and stuff. The aha moment was how much of the decisions we were making is based on our structure and budgets and like, lines in the sand and not on like, realities. Like, so much of the world we have created is not real. PowerPoint is not real. This Excel document is not real. This budget is not real. These are not real. We've created them in our heads. This is not reality for people in the world who are eating Oreo cookies. You know what I mean? And so I think working with Mindy, we've realized like, hey, this is my process, this is your process. But they're just processes. Right. So that was a big aha moment. And it's kind of like, it's kind of like breaking out of the Matrix in a way. So, like, Mindy and I have been able to like, move money around, make different types of decisions because we're realizing, like, we can break these processes and we can break these systems if we want to, as long as it's right for the consumer. And I think that was an aha that like, just, I think, made us all more powerful.
- [23:44]
Mindy
Yeah. And as we've brought like these things together, and I'm not saying we've like, solved the world in like the year or so that we've been working on this, we've said, okay, let's take a huge step back, let's look at it all together. And Wes is really the one who's been leading this and saying, you know, hey, we're missing, like, this really big part of the consumer journey. We're talking to them, you know, up here about all the things our brand stands for. We're touching them a lot at the point of conversion, but we're not talking in this space of, like, driving an action right like the middle of the journey. Like, how can we.
- [24:20]
Wes Saraceni
Don't get me started.
- [24:22]
Mindy
How can we move them right from that, like, I am aware into that. I'm considering and considering converting space. And that's a real lesson for us internally. Right. And I think, again, going back to, like, how smaller brands operate, right. That comes very naturally to them. And they actually start at different points in the journey sometimes. So we're just kind of continually trying to kind of shine a light on what are our internal biases and how do we get through them. And are we really, like, thinking about this holistically?
- [24:52]
Rachel Tippograph
I love that. The missing mid funnel. You guys found it. We have to ask you our famous last question, which is, what's the bravest thing you've ever done? And Wes, I'll start with you.
- [25:05]
Wes Saraceni
I mean, I was thinking, do I answer this question personally, professionally, I'm going to keep it professional now. There's lots of, like, ways we could go. But I. I want to go back to that. That day that I made the shift from, like, brand management into, like, this E Com world. That was a pretty big shift for me. You know, it was a completely different part of the business. I had no idea what I was doing. It was really me stepping into something I really didn't know much about. And it was really small at the time. So there was this fear that I was hurting my career by learning something new. And I made the decision probably the first time in my life, career, I guess, to choose the smaller thing in order to learn. And that was kind of weird decision for me. We think always, like, bigger, better, right. And it was the best decision I made. I learned so much, and the team has just grown as that. Like, it's become such an important part of the business. So I'm really proud of the decision I made. Looking back, it was like, obviously that was like, an important part of our pivot point for me, but in that moment, it was a really tough decision. So proud of myself for that.
- [26:15]
Mindy
And Mindy, I promise that we did not collaborate on these answers, but my example is actually pretty similar because we talked about how we've had somewhat similar journeys. So I made the leap into digital a little bit later. It was in 2022. It was post Covid. I was sitting kind of in a role where I was like, I don't. I don't know where else to go. Right within Mondelez. Like, I wasn't sure if that if I could continue to grow, like, if the organization wanted me to grow with them. And I said, okay, what are all the next steps? A lot of them very practical options. And then, you know, I kind of raised my hand for this digital commerce sales role where I was a partner to Wes, and that was in 2022. It didn't see it wasn't the most practical choice that I potentially had in front of me, but kind of made that leap, and I went into a pretty established team where I knew nothing about digital. Right. I had actually never been in a sales leader role. And, you know, I walked into this knowing very little, surrounded by people who had been doing this for several years at a pretty high level, right. Wes included. And I didn't know anything. I didn't know the language. I didn't know the metrics. I felt really stupid at the beginning. But I think, like, the learning that I took from it is that the not knowing is actually kind of like my superpower. Right. And it can be a superpower for people that, like, step into those unknown things, because when you come in, you know, the playbook, you know how things have been done, right? You don't do the questioning and the challenging. And, you know, sometimes it takes that person who doesn't know something to come in and disrupt it and bring about a better way of doing things. And not that I've, like, did that in that role, but, like, that's the main learning I've taken from it. And it's, like, helped me to be more brave in my career and, like, taking steps forward into things that I don't know as well.
- [28:16]
Rachel Tippograph
Well, I think this has been a remarkable case study of two colleagues who, yes, using Sarah's words, have incredible chemistry to create change in a large organization. So we appreciate you both sharing your story. I'm curious what assignment you're going to take next into this unknown world that we are participating in. And, folks, follow them on LinkedIn.
- [28:39]
Mindy
Thank you guys for having us. Thank you, Wes.
- [28:41]
Wes Saraceni
Thanks.
- [28:42]
Mindy
Bye.
- [28:43]
Wes Saraceni
Awesome being here. Thanks, Mindy.
- [28:49]
Rachel Tippograph
If you like what you heard and you want to keep thinking about the humanity of work, go check out an episode we did probably two or three years ago with A.C. eggleston, Bracey when she was at Unilever and tell a friend write a review. Thanks for listening.
- [29:27]
Jackie Cooper
Hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.