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BRAVE COMMERCE
The Wine Group’s Helen Kurtz on Speed to Market and Competing in a Crowded Category
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- [00:01]
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- [02:51]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
One thing I'll say I can't say enough about my colleagues and my team is that we are very fast to market. We are management owned. We don't have shareholders to answer to. We operate in a very, very quick fashion. And we have people who have been in their roles for a long time on the winemaking side. So we're just very, very quick. I've gotten things to market in under six months. And that's because we're not scared. We don't have a lot of boundaries to cross in a way that I've seen at some other companies I've worked at. So one thing is just a credit to the company for being very, very quick.
- [03:32]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
Welcome to today's episode of Free of Commerce. I'm Sarah Hofstadter.
- [03:36]
Rachel Tippograph, Free of Commerce Co-Host
And I'm Rachel Tippograph. And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brands.
- [03:50]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Sarah, if you.
- [03:52]
Rachel Tippograph, Free of Commerce Co-Host
I had to think about CMO talent. How often do you think they follow sort of traditional vertical career path where they're in cpg, they stay in cpg. And how often do you think they jump between industry verticals?
- [04:11]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
Are you asking about the way people hire or the way people design their career?
- [04:15]
Rachel Tippograph, Free of Commerce Co-Host
The way people design their careers.
- [04:17]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
I think it's interestingly split. And the question is, which one is feeding whom? Let's just take cpg. Are CPG marketers looking for other people who have been in cpg? You and I have talked about the. In many instances, the PepsiCo alumni, the Kraft Heinz alumni, the L' Oreal alumni. Do you just want to plug people from that space because they know that space, or do you take somebody who doesn't have the CPG experience but maybe has worked in an adjacent environment and bring somebody in? And I think that in general, CPG is a lower risk tolerance space. So therefore they try to hire from within, in which case then people are developing their careers and they're realizing it's insular. You got to stay within the vertical. I remember you and I had a guest on Thomas, who at the time was at Chobani.
- [05:10]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
Yeah.
- [05:11]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
He came to us from Uber.
- [05:13]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
Yeah.
- [05:13]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
Went to Chobani and then went from there to Intuit. And that was surprising to us. Right. Like you came from a different. A very different space and then not Uber Eats. Uber. Uber, yeah. And. And then came to Chobani, a, you know, perishable product with different kind of culture, and then got out of cpg. But I think it's as much the people who make the career decisions as it is the people who make the hiring decisions.
- [05:44]
Rachel Tippograph, Free of Commerce Co-Host
No, you're totally right. Which is A story we're about to hear from Helen at the wine group, where she talks about, literally her first conversation with the recruiter when they reached out to her because she does not come from the traditional Bev Elk background. So without further ado, let's bring Helen onto the show.
- [06:03]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
Today.
- [06:04]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
We are very excited to have Helen Kurtz, the chief marketing Officer at the wine Group, onto the show. Hello, Helen.
- [06:11]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Hi. Great to be here.
- [06:13]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
So, you know, looking at your LinkedIn, it's actually fairly reflective of a lot of guests that we've had on this show. You've gone from fruit snacks to cereal to chicken, and now to wine. So it's a full meal, your career journey, but, like, talk about how you worked your way up to the Bev out category.
- [06:33]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Yeah, I mean, I'd love to take some credit for any kind of thought that went into it, but, you know, like most things, it's sort of happened in part luck and in part, I guess, some strategy. But I was lucky enough to get recruited from business school to General Mills. Actually, you left out the most important part, which was that my internship was at Colgate Palmolive, so I have toothbrushing at the end of it all. So a full circle moment. But, yes, I was recruited into CPG at General Mills. Had an amazing 20 years there, and then I left there. I was exited out, as often happens when you get to the tippity top of the pyramid. So I left as a VP and moved to California to be CMO at Foster Farms, which is a leading chicken and poultry company on the West Coast. And then we sold the company. I went to be C suite at Cava, which does fresh fruit and vegetables and guacamole and avocados. From there, I joined the wine group. So, yeah, really filled that meal out.
- [07:39]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
What made you make that, that most recent change? I mean, gosh, there's a lot to unpack starting with that internship. But, like, when you made that pivot to the wine group, especially coming out of more recently, some more fresh brands, what made you say, you know what, this is the right opportunity for me?
- [07:59]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Yeah, well, candidly, my. The CEO who had recruited me, he left. And, you know, as sometimes happens, it wasn't the best fit with the new CEO. So I chose to leave and was just. I feel so lucky at the timing of this. But the wine group was looking for that CMO role, and I will tell you that a recruiter called me about it, and I was quick to sort of dismiss it because I said, well, I'm not the Right choice. Because I, I'm not really a big drinker. I don't know the wine category at all. And he said, no, no, they want someone who, who knows marketing. And I said, well, you know, I, I do know that. And so I was really intrigued. First of all, I really give the company so much credit for not looking. There are plenty of amazing wine marketers and the fact that they were open to someone who didn't have the category experience but really knew the function very well. And I think they were looking for a strong leader too. So I give a lot of credit to them for being open minded. And it's been just a really, really wonderful fit and experience for me. It's absolutely one of my favorite jobs I've had.
- [09:08]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
That's wonderful. So it is a credit to them to not just kind of go for the square peg, square hole. A little while back we had one of top buyers at Total Wine talking to us. And his background is at Kraft Foods, so I do see some bit of a trend. But when we asked him this question, we got one answer. I'm curious to hear yours. What do you think is the biggest difference between working in CPG versus Wine? Competition is very, very different. The choices are abundant. So how do you think about the differences and how your superpowers are coming to play here?
- [09:48]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Yeah, I love that and I know him. We had a nice little bonding moment over our CPG background. It is first of all, such an incredible background. I feel so grateful for having Lear learned so much in, in, you know, really the 27 years I was in CPG. So it's such an incredible foundation and there is a huge difference. So you know, of course the biggest difference is because of prohibition there is a three tiered system. Like suppliers like the Wine group are not able to sell directly to retailers like Total Wine and more. And so we have a distributor in the middle. That can be hard in that it's another, another layer, another gatekeeper. Reminds me a little bit of when I was on fruit snacks. And you've got, you got to really market to moms to get to kids. But it can also be really wonderful because the distributors can be fantastic partners like we have in Southern Grazers or Allied and real collaborators. So that's the biggest one. The other one is, to your point, so much competition. I mean, the most competition I ever had in CPG was maybe 10 other competitors. And I was always on brands that were number one or number two. And in wine, it's rare that you have fewer than 20 SKUs or competitors, brands against which you compete. And so that creates a really different dynamic. The consumer has loads of choices. There's far less loyalty, and there's a lot of sort of promiscuousness in the category in that people want to try different things, and some see it as a commodity. Right. So they just, you know, move around a lot. And I think the final thing maybe, is that just the size of the marketing you're able to do is a lot smaller. So think of the actual SKU itself. It's tiny. Like you have a tiny little footprint on a wine bottle, a 750. You know, one of our brands is Franzia, which is a box. So that's such a privilege to. Or just an advantage to have all that room to talk about it, but you have far less space. And so the packaging becomes really important, and it becomes harder to really call out differentiators and benefits. So there are lots of differences, but there are lots of similarities too. And I can talk to that. But, you know, innovation is a really big theme in both areas. Good marketing, great communication strategies, and really being transparent and how you talk about things and the way in which you reach consumers. There are lots of great interplays that I've been able to take advantage of and sort of bring some fresh thinking
- [12:27]
LinkedIn Advertising Announcer
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- [12:37]
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- [12:44]
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- [12:58]
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- [13:49]
Quo Business Phone System Narrator
running a business means juggling a lot of moving parts. And when your communication tools can't keep up, things start to slip. Missed calls, slow replies, scattered conversations. They're not just frustrating, they're lost opportunities and revenue left on the table. That's where quo comes in. Spelled Q U O. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2, trusted by over 90,000 businesses. One shared business number for calls and texts. So every conversation stays visible, organized and accountable. It works from an app or computer. You can keep your existing number, add teammates and sync your CRM, letting you scale without adding complexity. And with built in AI, Quo logs calls, summarizes conversations and flags next steps. Even after hours, stop missing customers. Stop leaving revenue on the table. Try Quo free and get 20% off your first six months@quo.com tech that's quo.com tech quo. No missed calls, no missed customers.
- [15:01]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
On top of everything that you just said, there's obviously also the macro backdrop which impacts CPG as well. But you know, Bev Elk as a category has definitely been under the spotlight as consumers change their taste preferences. You know, if we look at like the last five years of Bev al, there's been a big change in growth. In fact, in many areas the category is declining, especially in an area like wine. You're open minded enough that I can ask you this question which is do you think that the bevel category is going to be around 20 years from now?
- [15:36]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Yeah, I mean I love a provocative question like that. So thank you. And I have no doubt that it'll be around. I think it'll look different and it is shocking. I think after having enjoyed so much growth for so long, the category is really reeling in that it's down quite significantly and it is a different world. Happily. I have a lot of experience in that because guess what was declining before I came to wine? Cpg. And so I really, I take it very much in stride and I'm just have a very curious stance around it in that like, well, what's driving us and how can we adapt? This is someone else's words, but I love this expression that wine is one of many mood modulators. Caffeine, chocolate, drugs, exercise, all these things fall into mood modulators and consumers are always going to be interested in that. We partake myself in some of those. So I think there's always going to be a place for it. And the beauty of wine is. It's not just a product, it's also a feeling. It's a connection. It's a way in which to drive relationships and rapport. And it has a really special place in people's sort of gestalt. And I think the opportunity is to bring more of that back, even as the product itself is changing. So I'm quite optimistic about wine. I think it's going to be a hard slog for the next few years in alcohol overall. But there's a lot of opportunity too, I think, you know, with Gen Z is drinking very differently, but that doesn't scare me. They're very efficient. They want to have high elk so they don't have to drink as much. We can deliver that. They want high fruit and high flavor. We can deliver that. You know, with GLP1s, that's so interesting. That's like a really nascent thing to be thinking about and figuring out. And I think similarly, we have a lot of opportunity in smaller serving sizes or more transparency. Consumers are getting more interested in what's actually in everything that they drink or eat. I think it's just about meeting them where they are not getting too doom and gloom about it, but rather really finding a way to serve their needs and recognize there are different occasions at which we can come to play.
- [18:02]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
So you just said something very interesting about size, and that hits real hard because at cpg, PPA and assortment strategy is very natural. That's a very natural thing. And yet for hundreds, if not thousands of years, maybe not thousands, but certainly Hundreds, it's the 750 and getting a 375 or even, you know, the little ones, you get on, on the plane, you know, that's very unusual and harder to come by at the same time. There's like this barrier of do I want to open up a bottle?
- [18:37]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Right?
- [18:37]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
So how do you take those CPG mindsets and apply it to say, you know what, I know we haven't been doing this, but would we consider maybe having more of our assortment run on a 375 or something like that?
- [18:52]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Again, sort of in the spirit of like, never waste a good crisis. There is a real openness right now to trying different things and being innovative in both product and packaging. So, yeah, it hasn't been hard to really think through that. I think the tricky thing is just consumers are talking a lot more about wanting different size then they're actually behaving in that way. So we, we see that those smaller sizes aren't turning at the same velocity. As a 750, because it's a new just. It's a new behavior. But, you know, as I sit here with a Diet Coke in a can, I always am saying, like, there's no way I'd ever drink a Diet Coke out of a 2 liter, right? And so I think consumers, I even hate the word consumers in some ways because it implies they're just a mouth that we're feeding. It's like we're all consumers, right? And we all eat and drink things from different categories. And so that kind of transference and thinking about I just don't always want four servings, I want it in one, or I want it portable, or I want it on the go is something that I think the industry and retailers are more and more open to. What's interesting, again, back to prohibition, is that we actually have restrictions on which sizes we could be in. We can't do the. You mentioned tpa. We can't just shave down ounces or liters because there are certain sizes that we can be in. But in those required sizes, we can certainly bring innovation in terms of can or bottle or different size shape packs that will serve the consumer in those different occasions in which they want to drink. It's moved way beyond wine at dinner. We really want to be present wherever they're interested in bringing us.
- [20:36]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
You talked about such a, I think, like a wide range of product innovation opportunities. We just dove a little bit deeper into packaging and sizes. You also talked about flavor profile, alcohol count, all those things. Have a long timeline to get to market, yet the speed of change is happening much faster than what product development time takes. So internally, how is the wine group approaching the risks and the benefits of product innovation in the hopes that by the time they get the product to the shelf, those trends are still holding?
- [21:13]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Yeah, it's a great question in terms of speed to market, because that really is part of the trick, right, Is being either a leader or really being fast to follow. One thing I'll say, I can't say enough about my colleagues and my team is that we are very fast to market. We are management owned. We don't have shareholders to answer to. We operate in a very, very quick fashion. And we have people who have been in their roles for a long time on the winemaking side. So we're just very, very quick. I've gotten things to market in under six months, and that's because we're not scared. We don't have a lot of boundaries to cross in a way that I've seen at some other companies I've worked at. So one thing is just a credit to the company for being very, very quick. I think too, we're willing to experiment and we like to do things to bring us confidence. So we do a lot of consumer testing, but we don't necessarily wait for a lot of market test data or things to come back before we just go out with things. We know that that speed of innovation is really, really critical. So all to say, it is rare that it takes a full year to get out in market and certainly not two. We go quickly. The trick is always, you know, hitting the trend at the right time. And one of the things we've been working on is moving earlier on the trend curve, which is to say, you know, let's try things like we have an Agua Fresca coming out now, Agua Fresca is national, the non spiked version at Chipotle. So it's not an unknown thing. But really there's only one competitor of any scale in market. And so hitting the market at that point is right. Or we have a spiked coconut water coming out or we have a dirty soda coming out. So those are really nascent trends that we can come early on and figure out the right route to market, the right way to get quickly into market, while also being confident by the time we go national. Again, I think it always has to do. We have a stage gate process, we have a similar vetting process to all the places I've worked. But we have a management team that really is leaning forward on knowing we need to do things differently in this environment. And that kind of permission helps tremendously
- [23:42]
Sarah Hofstadter, Free of Commerce Host
makes a lot of sense. And it seems like if you don't get out of trends early, even if you're able to do all of that work in such a short period of time on innovation, you still got to go through the three tier system and equally importantly, get the retailers excited about that. And so you're in parallel trying to move a category or move into a trend or something like that. And you've got to bring that to all the points. You've got to get it to the distributors, you've got to get the retailers excited, you've got to convince everybody that this trend is exciting enough while still retaining that unique insight that you have found. How do you think about all of your constituents as you do that?
- [24:23]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Yeah, that's exactly right. There are a lot of hard things about the job. I mean, it's also what's energizing about it is like, oh, how can I figure this out and how can I make it work? You know, even internally, we need to make our own organization excited about it. And, you know, we launched. My team and I launched 49 new items in the last two years and 10 new brands. And that is a lot. There had been a bit of an innovation drought before that, and so we had some catching up to do, but that's a lot. And I. I really need to respect and partner with my sales peers who are out there selling. And, you know, because the shelf is contracting, you can't fit all those things in. You have to recognize, you know, we have High Elk in cans. We have a Mad Dog sku. We have a Fuel by Francia sku. Those are a great fit for some channels like C Store or I have on premise only SKUs. That really makes sense. They don't actually have a UPC on them and they're only sold in on premise. So it's figuring out the right channel, the right time, the right prioritization within their. And again, that takes a lot of internal partnership and making sure. And then again, going to that next rung of the distributor and the next rung with retailers. What we've seen is that retailers are becoming more and more open to having the thing that we became very used to in cpg, which is joint business planning and innovation summits. And, you know, we used to call them shock and awesome where we would show them things, you know, three years out. And I don't think that was as common in elk, but it is becoming more and more so. And it seems so great when we get to do that, because I love to hear what retailers are thinking. You know, they're on the front lines, they're hearing from consumers, they're watching other categories, and they give us a lot of fingertips and wrist in terms of what might appeal to them. And they know their consumer. You know, talking to Target is very different than talking to Total Wine or to Walmart or to Ruth's Chris on Premise.
- [26:33]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
Well, Helen, we could pick your brain all day, but we gotta ask you our famous last question, which is, what's the bravest thing you've ever done?
- [26:40]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Oh, my gosh. Well, I love this question. It is a hard question. And I have done natural childbirth. I have done Outward Bound. I have moved across country many times, but I thought in the spirit. You know, my son is a senior and he's going to college next year. So I've been deep in critiquing and thinking about college essays. And so I thought I'd bring up one from my past, which is when I was a senior in high school, I was an avid cross country runner and I was in the backseat of a car that was hit by a drunk driver in my senior year of high school. And it was really difficult, as you can imagine, to have a broken back. And I had to sort of make the choice of, you know, was I going to do a slow recovery or a surgery, and then I had to sort of make it through. I now have. I am bionic, I like to say I have a rod in my back. And eight years after all that happened and, you know, I was grateful to have something to write about in my own senior essays because those essays are so brutal. They make you think about, like, how you've had sort of a boring life until this. This gave me something to write about. But I will say eight years after, I went to another doctor and he said, oh, no, no, you're. You're able to run, you're able to do anything you want. You have, you know, you're that much stronger. You really are bionic. And so I ran five marathons. And I really, I think the reason I choose this example to share with you is that it shaped really my outlook on so many things. One about, you know, what a privilege it is to have a body that can move. And I never sort of have any of the resentment that people do about working out. I really do see it as something I'm so lucky to be able to do. And I really do think, you know, that experience with drunk driving made me think a lot about alcohol and a lot about moderation and a lot about what is my role in that and, you know, made me just sort of more aware of things like that. So I think it really shaped me in a way that a lot of other brave choices didn't. But sticks with me to this day. And I had a great workout this morning.
- [28:47]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
Well, one, thank God you're okay all these years later. Appreciate you sharing that story, especially against the backdrop of your role. So it's clear that you really care about the overall category as well as wellness. And hopefully your son writes a great essay.
- [29:04]
Helen Kurtz, CMO at The Wine Group
Oh, yeah, he did great. Yeah, he wrote a better one than I did probably, and is off to college. But thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate the question. It's such a interesting thing to recognize and take a moment to think about that. You know, just like consumers are more than their mouths, like leaders are more than the brands on which we work, we have a full life. And all those experiences of Our past really do do influence it. So thanks for the question. Really fun to catch up. Thank you both for inviting me.
- [29:31]
Free of Commerce Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [29:34]
Rachel Tippograph, Free of Commerce Co-Host
If you like what you heard and you want to hear an episode from another executive who moved outside of their category and is flourishing, go check out the episode we recorded recently with Brian Gelb from Total Wine. If you like what you heard, tell a friend. Write a review. Thanks for listen.
- [30:10]
LinkedIn Advertising Announcer
Blowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.
- [30:19]
LinkedIn Advertising Testimonial Speaker
I remember telling my boss it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it it wasn't.
- [30:27]
LinkedIn Advertising Announcer
Cut the bull. Spend LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and More. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.
- [30:42]
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- [31:14]
Jackie Cooper, Host of Touch of Truth Podcast
hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast launching on the AdWords podcast network. My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.