← BRAVE COMMERCE
BRAVE COMMERCE
Total Wine & More’s Brian Gelb on Intent-Based Leadership and Retail Growth in a Challenging Alcohol Market
00:25:32
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- [00:01]
Chelsea Bakken
Does using social media ever make you feel like you're just yelling into an algorithmic void? That feeds have started to feel a lot less, you know, social? Well, we're doing something about it. I'm Chelsea Bakken, head of audience development and social at Adweek, and I'm so excited to invite you to Social media week this April 14th through 16th. We're bringing together creators, marketers, and social leaders in a vibrant IRL space in New York City for three days of connection, collaboration and learning. You'll get the chance to dish on the latest tools and tricks, hear fresh perspectives on the year's most viral moments, and get the slot free inspiration you need to connect with your audience and optimize performance. Head to adweek.com events to learn more.
- [00:41]
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- [01:13]
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- [01:44]
Brian Gelb
And if we can find that middle ground where it drives their strategy and drives our strategy, it's really easy. We're not some big, scary buyer that's pinned behind a wall. Like, let's just sit down and collaborate and solve the consumer problems together. I mean, that's really what it boils down to. And I feel like so many suppliers miss that. They come in and they just push their agenda and their ideas and what they want to do. And they don't take the time to listen and hear what total Wine strategy is. And if they would listen and pay attention first, and there's some amazing partners that do this, then we can find that overlap and that Venn diagram and we can sell more wine together. It's really not that complicated.
- [02:26]
Sarah Hofstetter
Welcome to today's episode of Free of Commerce. I'm Sarah Hofstetter.
- [02:30]
Rachel Tippograph
And I'm Rachel Tippograph. And this is a show that talks about what's relevant in commerce for the world's biggest brands. Sarah, would you rather be an insider or an outsider?
- [02:47]
Sarah Hofstetter
You asked me the most inane questions to start with no context whatsoever. Can you build on this a little bit?
- [02:56]
Rachel Tippograph
When it comes to working within business, would you rather have deep expertise in a particular category or have breadth of knowledge in a wide range of categories? What do you think makes you a better business person?
- [03:11]
Sarah Hofstetter
I think what makes me a better business person is the fact that I have got the broad as kind of more of like an expected. But I think what differentiates is the deep, which is frankly why I agreed to start this podcast with you. You know, I knew how to lead in disruptive change. I've done that before. But you can't lead in disruptive change until you actually understand what's happening, whether it was search or social commerce, soon AI. And if you don't have that, then frankly, you don't really stand out. And I don't really know what value you're bringing. What about yourself?
- [03:47]
Rachel Tippograph
Well, I had my first experience with this recently, so, I mean, we all know I've essentially done one thing in my life which is operate at the intersection of media and commerce. But I now serve on a public board of a restaurant group called First Watch. And I attended my first board meeting last week, and I have no experience in the restaurant industry, so they did not bring me on for that. But I have deep experience in obviously modern day brand building and customer acquisition.
- [04:18]
Chelsea Bakken
And.
- [04:19]
Rachel Tippograph
And so it was the first time where I realized that I could take my deep expertise in one arena and bring it to adjacent categories and have, like, quite an impact by only saying a handful of things.
- [04:34]
Sarah Hofstetter
Well, welcome to board membership conversation for another podcast. But I do think that that's a big part of this, is recognizing that the superpower that got you into one job or that made you successful in one may not be the superpower that you end up applying to other things. It's actually one of the things I love the most about actually board work is, you know, when I'm sitting in the Campbell's board, nobody's asking me questions about commerce or social or marketing. It's about disruption. It's about when do you know that something is actually worth paying attention to. Having that spidey sense on those kinds of things. It's asking questions as a former business owner, it's pulling on strengths that you accumulated, not necessarily intentionally, but certainly as a byproduct of the things that you're doing. And that's probably why it takes a while to become a board member, because it is about the collective experiences. I'm so happy you're doing this.
- [05:33]
Rachel Tippograph
Yeah, no, it was. It was awesome. We'll have to catch up separately about it, but regardless, I think it's interesting. I was actually very surprised to hear this, but Total Wine, which is arguably one of the largest players in Bev alk retail, is growing while a lot of the brands that they sell are struggling. And so you have to ask the question, what's going on at Total Wine?
- [06:01]
Sarah Hofstetter
I think there's a number of trends afoot, and we're going to hear a lot more from Brian about this. But, yes, having that conversation with Brian and hearing like, basically, you know, everything is rainbows and unicorns and then coming out of Cagney, listening to a couple of the Beval guys citing the need to diversify, reduce, you know, outlook, things like that, it does seem counterintuitive. But in the same way that I think, you know, large CPGs are getting disrupted by these startups who are just so narrowly focused and not burdened by their scale. I think Total Wine has a similar thing saying we're going to stay narrowly focused and figure out how to find our edge and find our space. Brian unpacks it. But it's also interesting looking at who Brian is as an individual, because he also is not cut from the same cloth as everybody else.
- [06:55]
Rachel Tippograph
Yeah, he didn't grow up in the space, and I think that's what makes this conversation so fascinating. So let's bring Brian onto the show.
- [07:05]
Sarah Hofstetter
Today we are happy to have Brian Gelb, Senior VP of Wine and Concierge at Total Wine and more. Brian, it's been a while. I've been trying to get you on. I'm so glad you agreed to come.
- [07:15]
Brian Gelb
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's excited to be here.
- [07:17]
Sarah Hofstetter
We go way back, but one thing I learned in preparation for this episode is your military background, which is very similar to a lot of our mutual friends and many brave commerce alumni. So, first of all, let me start with thank you for your service. Cause, gosh, that's pretty admirable to have done it, and that's just incredibly special. And I hope that others give you that appreciation whenever they find out that you have that Background. One of the things that you talked about was how military officers have an advantage in business. And what do you think that you've gained that maybe others may never learn without having had that experience?
- [08:01]
Brian Gelb
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for thanking me. I never quite know how to respond to when people thank you because it
- [08:08]
Sarah Hofstetter
don't say my pleasure. I mean, I don't know, my pleasure.
- [08:11]
Brian Gelb
Is that the right phrase? You never know how to respond because when you serve, you don't really think of it as you're doing it on behalf of other people. You're doing something for the greater good because you believe in the core values of our country and our constitution. So it's always like a little. You never quite know how to reply to that.
- [08:28]
Sarah Hofstetter
Should we say something else to you instead? Is that like, should we create a new. A new thing?
- [08:32]
Brian Gelb
No, no, I like it. I think it's like, it's probably interesting to talk about because it's kind of like that awkwardness is like, every time someone says it to me, it's always like, I always feel that you never quite know how to reply.
- [08:41]
Sarah Hofstetter
I once said that to somebody who was boarding in front of me on. On an airline. I said, thank you for your service. And he's like, yeah, it was nothing.
- [08:48]
Brian Gelb
It's my job. You know, it's what you do. You show up, you do the military thing. But it's going back to your question on, you know, why military officers and, you know, what they bring to business. I think the thing that's really interesting, and I don't know that you really appreciate it if you haven't gone through that background is, you know, here you are as a young military officer, 22, 23 years old, and you're just put in charge of people situations. Thankfully, I was never in, like, you know, direct combat fire, but a lot of military officers are. And you're just expected to lead from day one. And, you know, when you come into the business world, I think so many people are looking for direction, looking for guidance. And with a military background, you're never really given that direction or guidance. You're given a big picture, and you're said, hey, go do this. Make it happen. But you're never given any specific details on how to actually make it happen. And you rely on your training. And so it creates, like, an extreme sense of what I would say is, like, ownership and initiative. I think that's, you know, what's missing if you don't come from the military background is you may not have that you know, I think there's a lot of people that, you know, or maybe serial entrepreneurs that really, they have ownership and that that initiative and drive. But a lot of people that just kind of grow up working for companies don't really have that extreme sense of ownership. And, and I think there's actually a strong correlation between a lot of entrepreneurs and people with military background because of it. And, and I think ultimately sometimes that can be the downfall of military officers when they come to companies because they do have that ownership and they're really maybe perceived as being aggressive and a little bit reckless at times. But the idea is that they want to charge that hill and make things happen and move things forward and typically aren't looking for permission or guidance. They're really just going to make things happen. And what they expect out of their leaders and their managers is that if they're getting out of line, how do they get corrected and get put back in line quickly? Otherwise they're going to keep going without really any real guardrails. That can be the downside to hiring military veterans.
- [10:51]
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- [11:24]
Chelsea Bakken
Does using social media ever make you feel like you're just yelling into an algorithmic void? That feeds have started to feel a lot less, you know, social? Well, we're doing something about it. I'm Chelsea Backin, head of audience development and social at Adweek, and I'm so excited to invite you to Social Media Week. This April 14th through 16th, we're bringing together creators, marketers and social leaders in a vibrant IRL space in New York City for three days of connection, collaboration and learning. You'll get the chance to dish on the latest tools and tricks, hear fresh perspectives on the year's most viral moments, and get the slot free inspiration you need to connect with your audience and optimize performance. Head to adweek.com events to learn more.
- [12:04]
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- [12:36]
Rachel Tippograph
How do you think you can manufacture that sense of accountability? So as an entrepreneur, and I've been doing a lot of reflection, my company was acquired essentially 45 days ago. And yeah, you know, the, the prize is what drove you every single day. The potential opportunity on the other side to build something that had significant value for all shareholders in the military. It's life and death. So if you grow up, for example, just working for a company, how do you think you can manufacture that sense of accountability?
- [13:10]
Brian Gelb
That's a great question. I think it comes down to the values you embed in the organization and then how you lead those people. And I'm a big believer, and this is pretty common actually in the submarine force where I came from, what's called intent based leadership. And so anytime somebody brings me a problem, I'm always like, well, what do you want to do? And then they kind of state some facts or whatever and I say, well, why do you think that? What's your reason? Explain your logic to me. Okay, okay, now I understand why. Well, what will that accomplish? What are the watch outs? What are the things that you're concerned about? And I just ask lots of kind of probing questions and it forces people to answer all of those questions and think through their logic. Then we arrive at the end and say, okay, I'm aligned with your decision, let's go do it. If I'm not aligned with their decision, that comes out in the debate, right? We say, well, it's interesting you think that's the biggest risk, whereas I think this is the biggest risk. Let's talk through that and we can debate which is a bigger risk as an example. And you know, you do that once with someone, they okay, they get it. The second time they come back. Maybe you have to go through that again, but probably at a lesser scale because they're a little more prepared to answer all those questions. And now when you get to the point where you've been working with people and you have direct reports that you work with for six months a year, it becomes ingrained. They're like, okay, I know when I Go in to see Brian. I can't just come in and state a problem. I need to come in and say, what is the challenge? What do I want to go do about it? What are my reasons for doing it? What's my logic? And it forces them to have that dialogue. And they would say, okay, here's the situation. Here are three choices. Here's all the risks involved. I believe this is the best decision because of X, Y and Z. What do you think? And I'll say, great, your logic is super sound. I'm 100% aligned with what you want to do. Go do it. And really what that does, that logic forces the decision making down. And by forcing the decision making down, it forces them to be. They recognize their owners of the decision. Now, if they made the wrong decision, I was a part of it. You know, I supported them. And I'm going to own that wrong decision as much as them. But the reality is that they arrived at that decision on their own and they'll want to see themselves be successful because they felt like they were empowered to make that decision. They're not going to walk out of my office saying, well, we're doing this because Brian told us to do it. They're doing it because they walk through the logic and they believe that that was the right decision for the overall business. And so to me, I think that's really the approach I take as a leader and it forces them to be bought into the decisions we're making.
- [15:36]
Sarah Hofstetter
Sounds a lot like actually somebody that we know that I feel like I worked for, even though I never worked for him. But your prior boss, Howard Friedman, I feel like every day that I would have a conversation with him. I would. Or to be prepared to answer those questions. And I may as well not show up in the room unless I've done so.
- [15:56]
Brian Gelb
Yeah, at first you become like, why? Why is he asking me so many questions? But then over time, you just get used to it. I saw you had tremendous earnings call the other day.
- [16:02]
Sarah Hofstetter
You sure did.
- [16:03]
Brian Gelb
So it sounds like he's doing unbelievably great things at ut. So I haven't talked with him in a while, but truly impressive what he's been doing.
- [16:10]
Sarah Hofstetter
Yeah, Cagney presentation looks pretty good too. As a Campbell's board member, I cheer on growth in the category and that is all I will have to say about that. But moving along, this takes us back to. We met more than 15 years ago when your craft and I was agency side. Then you went to Uber Eats and then Total Wine. So Just thinking about the craft and total wine jobs. Like, what do you wish you knew when you were on the supplier side in CPG about how to work with partners on the retail side that could help advise especially a lot of our listeners who sit on either end of that spectrum.
- [16:47]
Brian Gelb
Yeah, it's a really funny question because I remember when I made this transition how, like, shocking and jarring it was, because I remember when I was at Kraft, we'd go and we'd present to our biggest retail customer that was Walmart. And here I was, this associate brand manager. Brand manager running the. The team. And we'd prepare for weeks and weeks and weeks the presentation. And we'd send it to our sales guy that was living in Bentonville, and. And then Howard, the BU president, would go down and present it. And we, as the people who did all the work, were not allowed to be present. And you knew the day of the meeting, you'd be sitting on pins and needles all day. You'd be so unproductive because you just want to know the results. Like, oh, was Walmart aligned with our idea? Are they going to buy in? Are they going to do whatever? Then you get the feedback from Howard and the sales team. There was a guy named Jason at the time. And then I switched to the. On the retail side. And I remember sitting in a meeting with a really large winery, with the CEO of the winery. And I just remember, like, laughing internally. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm that guy on the other side that we were always so nervous about. Like, I'm now that guy.
- [17:48]
Sarah Hofstetter
That's great.
- [17:49]
Brian Gelb
And I was thinking, I was like the CEO of this. I mean, like a major, major brand. I was like, the CEO, I know he didn't make this deck. Like, I know there's some brand manager sitting in somewhere that made the deck in the presentation. And I just, like, died laughing at that transition because I always pictured the buyer, some like, really old, distinguished person who had been buying their categories for forever. And when in reality they were. They were really just like us on the supplier side. And what it comes down to is the jobs and the roles are not that dissimilar. The main thing is it comes down to the consumer. Everything should be grounded in the customer insights. And so if the, you know, the brands are amazing at this because they invest like crazy. That's the one thing I really miss about being on the supplier side. They really understand the consumer. They understand the insights. The data they have is unbelievable. When they bring those insights to us and present it from a consumer perspective, share that data with us, it really makes the conversation go a lot further, because while we're very consumer and customer obsessed from the retail side, we just don't have access to the same level of data that they do, even though we're so much closer to the customer. And that's because there's a lot of protections on the data. I can't see a lot of competitive data. Like, I know what's working in Total Wine. My data, Total Wine is incredibly deep, incredibly rich. But I don't know other retailers what's going on in their store. So I don't have, like, a broader view outside of our own four walls. And so that's where the suppliers can really bring a lot of rich information. And what I always tell suppliers, too, is our goals are the same. They want to sell more wine, I want to sell more wine, we want to sell more wine together. Let's figure this out. And typically, they have a strategy, right? They know who their consumer is. They know what they're trying to do. We have our strategy and our consumer what we're trying to do. It's a Venn diagram. Like, let's put the two together, and if we can find that middle ground where it drives their strategy and drives our strategy, it's really easy. We're not some big, scary buyer that's pinned behind a wall. Like, let's just sit down and collaborate and solve the consumer problems together. I mean, that's really what it boils down to. And I feel like so many suppliers miss that. They come in and they just push their agenda and their ideas and what they want to do, and they don't take the time to listen and hear what Total Wine Strategy is. And if they would listen and pay attention first, and there's some amazing partners that do this, then we can find that overlap in that Venn diagram and we can sell more wine together. It's really not that complicated.
- [20:18]
Rachel Tippograph
I think you just gave great advice as someone's next JBP with you. You know, it's interesting. Total Wine seems to be growing when the alcohol and spirits category is struggling.
- [20:31]
Brian Gelb
Yeah.
- [20:33]
Rachel Tippograph
So what's going on and what are we missing?
- [20:36]
Brian Gelb
Yeah, there's a few factors there, I think. For starters, I recognize that the world of beverage alcohol, adult beverage alcohol, is challenging at the moment, and a lot of suppliers are really challenged. And there's sales are declining. We are really gaining, frankly, through market share is where most of our growth is coming from. You know, we're winning in the Market, we're winning through our customers. How are we doing that? We really just follow kind of the core principles of who we are as a company, which is not, once again, not that complicated. It comes down to we believe in providing unbelievable service. You know, you walk into a total wine or any alcohol store, especially like if you don't know anything about wine, if most people don't know a lot about wine, it's incredibly overwhelming. I mean, there's hundreds, if not thousands of bottles on the shelf. How do you know what to go buy? Where do you get that advice? We spend a lot of time and a lot of energy training all of our associates so that they can offer great advice and great guidance to customers. We bring our store managers to Napa typically a couple times a year, like meet the wineries directly and talk with wineries here from the winemakers. Every other year, we bring them to Europe and tour them through Europe and getting to meet European winemakers for this is what we do for our top performers. We spend a lot of time on like internal training. We bring a lot of wineries to our stores, training our stores. And so all of that's really in the spirit of teaching our store team members how to provide great advice and insights. And typically they're not trying to like push certain things. They're just pushing what they're personally passionate about based on what they hear from people. So that's like number one is like the service aspect. The second thing is our, our selection. I think we are fortunate that as the market has become more challenging, as a bigger player, we have access to more capital and that's allowed us to focus on expanding our assortment. Our goal is to carry a broad range of products from entry level price points to like ultra rare, ultra premium type wines and spirits. And so we should be able to have something for everyone. And that's really expensive to do. You know, it's, it's costly buying into all that product. But I think that's one of the advantages of when you're the big players. We've made that a real priority for us. The final pillar is really our pricing. You know, we just try to be really laser focused on having sharp prices, sharp retails to allow us to be competitive in the market. We don't ever want to be undersold versus competition. You know, that's really what it comes down to. And if we focus on kind of those key things and have nice, clean, modern stores, people are going to have a great experience. And it's kind of sad to say but the bar is not that high in beverage alcohol in my opinion. Like, you know, when I think back to like, you know, talk with the two brothers that co founded Total Line 30 some years ago, David and Robert. The reason they got into this business is because they looked around and all the liquor stores were like kind of dirty and sleazy kind of. And they were like, oh, we can make this a better experience. And that's really what they've done. Like I said, it's not rocket science. I mean we're buying and selling wine and spirits and beer and it's making the experience compelling to the customer. I would be remiss if I did not mention that some of the growth as well is coming from new categories. We've seen tremendous growth with THC infused beverages. We're in about 20 states where that's legal. We see that as a big growth opportunity. We're going to continue to invest in that area as well as non alcoholic beverages. Beer, wine and spirits. That's really grown as well. You know, I think back to when I was 25 years old, the idea of drinking like an oduls or a non alcoholic beer was like something that wasn't a thing. And now it's become so common for people to drink non alcoholic wine. It's called like zebra striping where you drink one alcohol, one non alcohol allows you to moderate a little bit more. We're seeing growth there. And now there's this new thing called functional beverages. It's not that name is not super consumer friendly. It's probably not the right word to use. But this idea of beverages that are made with like lion's mane and ashwagandha I would even include, it's probably not right, but like poppy sodas where you have these soft drinks that have an effect on your body.
- [24:30]
Rachel Tippograph
Right.
- [24:30]
Brian Gelb
And that's why alcohol does. Alcohol has some effect on your body, right. It changes your mood, your behavior, your social interactions. And I believe functional beverages have, you know, have effects on your body. It's not the same effects that alcohol has. Poppy, I think has famously focused it on, I'll call it more digestion, probiotics. But some of the things like the lion's mane and the ashwagandha can be more focus driven or help you calm down at night. There's beverages that have magnesium and magnesium help you sleep. When I think about when I joined Total wine, there were three categories. There's wine, beer and spirits. And now when you start to include THC beverages, you start to include these functional Things you start to include non alcohol. There's only three categories. It's like an infinite number of categories along a continuum. And it's just. It's not easy to shop the categories anymore because it's highly confusing, like, where does this fall? But I think all of those things are compelling to our customers. And so we just keep expanding our assortment and making sure we have a great selection. And I think that keeps bringing people into the stores.
- [25:34]
Rachel Tippograph
It's so interesting. You guys are playing offense while a lot of other people are playing defense. And when I talk about what's going on in the sector from a manufacturer side, the portfolios that are winning are the ones that have an M and A or an innovation strategy very similar to what you just described versus some of the players that are just really trying to hold on to the old way of doing things. So it'll be interesting if they start to copy the total wine strategy.
- [26:04]
Brian Gelb
Absolutely. Absolutely.
- [26:06]
Rachel Tippograph
Well, Brian, we gotta ask you our famous last question, which is, what's the bravest thing you've ever done?
- [26:11]
Brian Gelb
Oh, man, I've been, like, dreading this question. I don't really think of myself as anyone that's particularly brave. I feel like I've made so many career leaps and moves. I've lived in, like, four countries in my life. I've changed career arc so many times, and at some point, it just becomes who you are as a person. So I don't think that anything I've particularly done is brave. So I was trying to debate. I was going through all my career stuff. I've been going through all my personal stuff looking for something brave. And I think the one that I came up with, and this person might kill me for telling the stories I realized, and I tell this story very rarely, is when I went on my honeymoon with my wife, it was the longest amount of time I'd ever spent with her.
- [26:50]
Rachel Tippograph
I got to take myself off mute. That is really funny. We dated.
- [26:54]
Brian Gelb
My wife and I dated for, like, seven or eight years. And we lived in different cities, different careers, and in fact. So we went on our honeymoon. Longest amount of time we spent together. And then our first year of marriage, we didn't even live together. I was in Philly in grad school. My wife was working in D.C. on Capitol Hill. So we only saw each other on weekends. And so it wasn't until a year after we got married when we moved to Chicago. And that's. And that's where I met Sarah, when I was working for CRAFT in Chicago. But that was the first time my wife and I had ever spent more than like a week or two together was when we moved in after a year of marriage. We're still together 17 years later. Couple of kids and multiple city moves. So it's. I would say that was probably the bravest thing, but a little bit, A little bit outside the box.
- [27:41]
Rachel Tippograph
That's hysterical. I recently asked a mentor how does she make her marriage work? And she told me it's because they don't really spend time together. So maybe, maybe that's the secret.
- [27:54]
Brian Gelb
There's something to it. My wife travels quite a bit for work, and in my job, obviously, I travel quite a bit, going to different wine regions and meeting with wineries. And so it feels like we're apart more often than we're together. But it works out. It's been, you know, 17 years later, like I said, it's been great.
- [28:09]
Rachel Tippograph
Well, we'll find out if your wife listens to brave commerce, if she brings us up at all.
- [28:14]
Brian Gelb
Yeah.
- [28:15]
Rachel Tippograph
And Brian, we're so appreciative for all your insights, especially your insights and leadership.
- [28:19]
Brian Gelb
Absolutely. Thank you, guys. Pleasure to be here.
- [28:22]
Rachel Tippograph
If you like what you heard and you want to go listen to an episode with another great military veteran who has a lot of relevance to Brian and Sarah, go check out an episode we did way back when. Howard Friedman was the CEO of Post. He's now at Utz. And Howard, this is a shout out that we're going to get you back on the show. And don't forget to write a review. Thanks for listening.
- [29:01]
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- [29:34]
Chelsea Bakken
Does using social media ever make you feel like you're just yelling into an algorithmic void? That feeds have started to feel a lot less, you know, social? Well, we're doing something about it. I'm Chelsea Bakken, head of audience development and social at adweek, and I'm so excited to invite you to Social media week this April 14th through 16th. We're bringing together creators, marketers, and social leaders in a vibrant IRL space in New York City for three days of connection, collaboration and learning. You'll get the chance to dish on the latest tools and tricks, hear fresh perspectives on the year's most viral moments and get the slot free inspiration you need to connect with your audience and optimize performance. Head to adweek.com events to learn more.
- [30:16]
Jackie Cooper
Hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice, Meet everyone once. As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.