Wella & Reckitt Unpack the Future of Retail vs. National Media

Summary

BRAVE COMMERCE Episode Summary: "Wella & Reckitt Unpack the Future of Retail vs. National Media"

Release Date: February 11, 2025

In this compelling episode of Brave Commerce, hosted by Rachel Tippograph, Founder and CEO of MikMak, and Sarah Hofstetter, President of Profitero, industry leaders Farah Linden from Wella and Josh Jresky from Reckitt engage in an insightful discussion about the evolving landscape of retail media versus national digital media. The conversation delves into the complexities of media investment, budget allocation, profitability, creative strategies, platform maturity, and organizational structures within major brands navigating the blurred lines between these two media channels.

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1. Introduction to the Debate

Rachel Tippograph opens the discussion by highlighting the frequent intersection of retail media and national digital media in their conversations—citing that they've addressed the topic in approximately 50 out of 200 episodes. She sets the stage for the episode by introducing the challenges brands face as these channels and their associated budgets increasingly blur. The goal: to glean insights from Farah and Josh, both adept at navigating this intricate media environment.

Rachel Tippograph [02:07]: "Retail media and national digital media are channels that are starting to blur, the budgets are starting to blur and so operationally internally how you operate is probably blurring as well."

---

2. Defining Retail Media vs. National Media

Farah Linden and Josh Jresky delve into the nuanced definitions of retail and national media within their organizations. Farah explains that Wella categorizes media into brand media, national media, and retail media, acknowledging the blurred lines between them.

Farah Linden [03:35]: "We consider brand media, national media, and retail media."

Josh echoes this sentiment, discussing the internal debates over terminology and the practical challenges of distinguishing between retail and consumer media.

Josh Jresky [04:28]: "We've had this debate internally. So I start calling it consumer, brand national media... there's confusion still even between retail media and consumer."

---

3. Budget Allocation and Management

The conversation shifts to strategic budget management amidst the ambiguity of media channels. Farah emphasizes aligning media investments with specific sales and consumption goals, ensuring that each channel contributes effectively to overarching business objectives.

Farah Linden [05:41]: "It all should ladder up to your goals and your specific sales goals per channel or consumption goals."

Josh adds that defining clear objectives—whether acquisition, competitive conquest, or consumer switchers—is crucial for effective budget allocation.

Josh Jresky [06:05]: "It's really defining the goal and objective... understanding the business objective that leads into the marketing objective, that leads into the comms objective, that finally leads into the media objective."

---

4. Profitability of Retail Media

Addressing skepticism around the profitability of retail media, Farah shares Wella's positive outlook, citing high profitability driven by first-party data and closed-loop attribution.

Farah Linden [08:56]: "I think it has one of the highest profitability out of all channels we see the greatest return because of the first party data and the closed loop attribution."

Conversely, Josh discusses Reckitt's evolving measurement frameworks, moving beyond traditional metrics like CTR and ROAS to more meaningful indicators such as incrementality and brand lift studies.

Josh Jresky [09:06]: "ROAS to me is the new CTR... shifting the conversation from being over focused on ROAS to doing things like driving incrementality. Sales lift and even equity based measurements like brand lift studies are new areas of opportunity."

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5. Measurement and Key Performance Indicators (KPIs)

Both leaders agree on the necessity of granular KPIs. Farah highlights the ability to measure metrics like new-to-brand customers and lifetime value, leveraging detailed consumer insights to enhance media effectiveness.

Farah Linden [09:43]: "We can measure new to brand, we can measure lifetime value. It's just we get so much more information on our consumer that we find valuable."

Josh emphasizes transforming measurement frameworks to align with strategic objectives, advocating for metrics that reflect long-term value rather than short-term clicks.

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6. Creative Excellence in Retail Media

The discussion pivots to the importance of creative strategies in retail media. Josh critiques the reliance on static images and low-impact ad formats, advocating for dynamic, high-impact content tailored to the predominantly mobile consumption landscape.

Josh Jresky [11:41]: "We're focusing on video content, on high impact content... How are we going to do that with a static image and a 300 by 250 banner?"

He underscores the challenge of scaling creative excellence across various platforms, balancing on-site and off-site channels to maximize incrementality.

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7. Platform Maturity and Future Investments

Farah and Josh identify Amazon and Walmart as mature players in the retail media ecosystem, noting their significant investments and strategic acquisitions that bolster their media capabilities.

Farah Linden [14:21]: "Amazon is just growing exponentially."

Josh discusses Reckitt's approach to evaluating platform maturity through a scorecard system, assessing whether platforms own their technology or rely on third-party solutions, and their capacity for self-service versus managed services.

Josh Jresky [13:54]: "We're looking at do they own their own technology or are they using a licensed third party as a key indication."

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8. Organizational Structure and Integration of Media Functions

The episode explores how brand media and retail media are positioned within organizations. Farah and Josh describe their roles as centers of excellence (COE) that collaborate across teams and brands, ensuring cohesive media strategies.

Farah Linden [15:38]: "I sit in marketing. I report to the CMO... we're also a COE... we work with every single team and we work across every single brand."

Josh discusses the potential future of trade marketing as a hybrid function that bridges brand marketing and sales, suggesting it may evolve into a more centralized role within marketing teams.

Josh Jresky [16:28]: "I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens with trade marketing... how much that grows, especially with all the conversations that we're having today."

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9. Future Capabilities and Skills for Success

Looking ahead, both leaders emphasize the importance of evolving skill sets. Farah highlights the growing influence of user-generated content (UGC) and the necessity of understanding platform algorithms.

Farah Linden [18:15]: "The best content is UGC. So I think just really understanding that space is super important in paid media right now."

Josh adds that the fusion of technology and strategy requires professionals to possess both technical proficiency and strategic acumen, advocating for "unicorn" talents who can navigate both realms seamlessly.

Josh Jresky [18:45]: "If you do not understand the platforms you are activating on, you cannot speak to strategy and then you cannot understand the data and analytics that are coming through."

---

10. Unified vs. Separate Brand and Retail Media Functions

Rachel poses a critical question about the organizational benefits and drawbacks of having brand media and retail media as distinct functions versus integrated within a single discipline.

Farah contemplates the advantages of separation, such as maintaining specialized focus and optimizing budgets closely aligned with specific media channels.

Farah Linden [19:55]: "The benefits of having them separated is that you keep retail performance marketing and you're very close to the sales side and you're able to optimize that budget."

Conversely, Josh warns against the potential loss of consistent brand messaging when media functions operate in silos, leading to mixed communications that can confuse consumers.

Josh Jresky [20:16]: "The consumer is receiving mixed messaging and I don't think that's a recipe for success."

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11. Personal Insights: The Bravest Things They’ve Done

In a light-hearted conclusion, Farah and Josh share personal anecdotes about their bravest actions, offering a glimpse into their personalities beyond their professional expertise.

Josh Jresky [20:45]: "Turning down my dream job... knowing that long term where I wanted to be was here."

Farah Linden [21:25]: "I did run a marathon and I had no running experience... I trained from start and I ran the New York City Marathon."

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Conclusion

This episode of Brave Commerce provides a deep dive into the strategic intricacies of managing retail and national media within large organizations. Farah Linden and Josh Jresky offer valuable perspectives on aligning media investments with business objectives, fostering creative excellence, navigating platform maturity, and structuring organizational functions to optimize media performance. Their insights underscore the importance of adaptability, strategic clarity, and cohesive communication in the ever-evolving eCommerce landscape.

Listeners are encouraged to explore further discussions on related topics through previous episodes, such as Chris Chesbrough’s 2023 interview with Wella, providing a historical context to the current media strategies employed by leading brands.

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Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Tippograph [02:07]: "Retail media and national digital media are channels that are starting to blur, the budgets are starting to blur and so operationally internally how you operate is probably blurring as well."

• Josh Jresky [06:05]: "It's really defining the goal and objective... understanding the business objective that leads into the marketing objective, that leads into the comms objective, that finally leads into the media objective."

• Farah Linden [08:56]: "I think it has one of the highest profitability out of all channels we see the greatest return because of the first party data and the closed loop attribution."

• Josh Jresky [09:06]: "ROAS to me is the new CTR... shifting the conversation from being over focused on ROAS to doing things like driving incrementality."

• Josh Jresky [11:41]: "We're focusing on video content, on high impact content... How are we going to do that with a static image and a 300 by 250 banner?"

• Farah Linden [18:15]: "The best content is UGC. So I think just really understanding that space is super important in paid media right now."

• Josh Jresky [18:45]: "If you do not understand the platforms you are activating on, you cannot speak to strategy and then you cannot understand the data and analytics that are coming through."

Transcript

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[Farah Linden]

I sit in marketing. I report to the CMO. We are an other yeah, and we're also a COE. Even though we sit in marketing because we work with every single team and we work across every single brand, it's.

[Josh Jresky]

Really level setting the expectation. Especially with management saying yes. While there's a blurring of lines between the two pillars of media investment, it is currently not apples to apples. The ad formats or the placement types you can run the buying models. Whether it's managed service or self service. Those are big things that you need to make sure you fundamentally understand the.

[Farah Linden]

Media team is a center of excellence and where I see us is continuing to be a center of excellence.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Welcome to today's episode of Brave Commerce. I'm Rachel Tippograph, the founder and CEO of Mic Mac.

[Josh Jresky]

I'm Sarah Hofstadter, President of Profitero, and.

[Rachel Tippograph]

This is a show that talks about what's relevant in E commerce for the world's biggest brands.

[Podcast Host]

Retail media versus National Digital media. I am curious how many times we've spoken about this on the show. You know we've recorded around 200 episodes so I imagine we're looking at at least 50 times. I feel like we probably touch it one out of every four times and obviously that means we were going to talk about it. At Brave Commerce Live we understand that retail media and national digital media are the channels are starting to blur, the budgets are starting to blur and so operationally internally how you operate is probably blurring as well the best way to learn how companies are approaching this mess is to hear from two great operators who are navigating it quite well. You're going to hear from Farrah Linden, who works at Wella and is the director of media, and then Josh Jresky, who is the associate media director at Reckitt's infant care business. Both of them are tackling many of the same challenges that all of you are navigating every single day. So on that note, let's hear what they have to say at Brave Commerce Live. Before we get into this debate, I need to check your credentials. Can you please confirm that in your current roles, you oversee the brand and.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Retail media budgets for your organization?

[Farah Linden]

Yes, I do.

[Josh Jresky]

Correct.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Can you share the size of this budget?

[Josh Jresky]

You go first.

[Farah Linden]

I was going to give her rage.

[Rachel Tippograph]

So can you both just share your role and your scope, and then we're.

[Podcast Host]

Going to get into our debates.

[Farah Linden]

Sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Farah. I am at the Wella company. I oversee all media, retail and national for North America. So US And Canada. And our brands include Wella Professional, OPI Nail Polish, Nioxin, Sebastian, Clairol Hair Care.

[Josh Jresky]

Hi, everybody. I'm Josh. I am our associate director of media at Reckitt, another company that you're probably not too familiar with, but you're probably familiar with some of our sub brands. So we do everything from Eucinex to Lysol, but the brand I work on or the bu I work on is nutrition, and we primarily focus on infant formula and toddler nutrition. So if there's any moms that are using Enfamil. Thank you for being a customer.

[Farah Linden]

I did.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Just to clear the air, do you guys use the terms brand media and retail media or internally? Are there other terms?

[Farah Linden]

We do. We consider brand media, national media, and retail media. Retail media or etel.

[Josh Jresky]

Yeah, we've had this debate internally. So I start calling it consumer, brand national media, because depending on who you talk to, some people call it national media, which I think is hysterical. What media is not national these days? But then there's brand marketing, consumer. So for us, we've kind of aligned to consumer media as our terminology. But then again, there's confusion still even between retail media and consumer.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Got it. So to clarify for the audience, it's complicated. The. The trade desk against Walmart Connect audiences. What is that?

[Farah Linden]

Good question. We consider that national media, like it's funded out of our national media budget, but it is detail media. The lines are totally blurred, which is why at my company, we oversee all.

[Josh Jresky]

Media so to complicate that even further, so we're using GMP Google marketing platform for our consumer media activations. But then we're using Trade Desk and platforms like pacvu and Critia for retail media.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Okay. It seems like it's very blurry.

[Josh Jresky]

Correct.

[Rachel Tippograph]

So like from a, from a budget management standpoint, when you're making these decisions, how do you decide where you're going to pull from when you do buys that are that blurry?

[Farah Linden]

Yes. It all should ladder up to your goals and your specific sales goals per channel or consumption goals. So we start there, we back it out, get to the budget and then obviously depends where your brand is in the journey. But there's always a dedicated budget for top of funnel awareness, mental availability budget.

[Josh Jresky]

Okay, yeah, I'll double down on that. I know we're supposed to debate, but.

[Farah Linden]

We'Re also best friends.

[Josh Jresky]

We agree more than we disagree. So for me, I think it's again those goals. But I think within retail media especially, there's been an over focus on this notion of acquisition. Acquisition. Acquisition. Acquisition. What is acquisition? Is it acquisition where you're having people come new to category or new to brand? Is acquisition you're trying to competitive conquest or are you trying to do acquisition where you're getting a kind of a switcher, if you will, within our category? So it's, it's really defining the goal and objective. So for us it's really that kind of waterfall approach, understanding the business objective that leads into that marketing objective, that leads into the comms objective, that finally leads into the media objective. So for us, when we have those imbalances of kind of where our objectives are, what our goals, what success looks like, I think it's the misconception or misnotion of kind of where success looks like and what we're trying to ultimately.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Achieve, when it comes down to it, it really is what's the objective that this media is trying to serve. And then that's how you start to really allocate budget in a world where things are so, so blurry internally. Do you guys actually believe that retail media is media and then do you hold it to media standards?

[Farah Linden]

Yes, we do. I think it can sit in various places in an organization and we heard different approaches, but in order to truthfully get the best out of retail media, you need to optimize and understand media. So I do believe it's media with a clear objective of return.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Josh?

[Josh Jresky]

Yeah, we've been on this interesting journey because retail media has had this meteoric arise within our organization. Like a lot of companies and brands out there. So we've kind of come for this place like hey, this is kind of checking the box. We're going to kind of give the retailers some marketing investment and it's not going to have the same rigor and focus that our consumer brand national media does. It's really looking at each of the retailers and what we've done is this notion of scorecarding because the Amazons and the Walmarts of the world are fundamentally different than what you can do in club and drug for example. So for us it's really level setting the expectation, especially with management saying yes. While there's a blurring of lines between the two pillars of media investment, it is currently not apples to apples. While for example you can activate On WMC within TikTok or Meta the ad formats or the placement types, you can run the buying models, whether it's managed service or self service. Those are big things that you need to make sure you fundamentally understand how are being bought. For us we're kind of moving into this place of digital executional governance on retail media on the same levels that we do with consumer.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Got it. Before we get into sort of the maturity of all those, it seems like both of you agree that retail media is media and that means you're holding it to the same standards that you would hold a Google or the trade desk or Roku, et cetera. Is it coming back that it's profitable?

[Farah Linden]

Yes, very much so. I think it has one of the highest profitability is out of all channels we see the greatest return because of the first party data and the closed loop attribution. So yes, for sure.

[Josh Jresky]

Yeah, for me it's transforming the measurement framework and what success looks like. Personally from my perspective, I think we've all collectively moved on from CTR with the exception of search which we'll put to the side. But for us, ROAS to me is the new ctr. ROAS is not driving incrementality, it's not driving clv, it's not driving roi. So shifting the conversation from being over focused on roas to doing things like driving incrementality. Sales lift and even equity based measurements like brand lift studies are new areas of opportunity for us to collectively discuss with our clients.

[Farah Linden]

Yeah, and I just think the KPIs are more granular. We can measure new to brand, we can measure lifetime value. It's just we get so much more information on our consumer that we find valuable.

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[Rachel Tippograph]

Since it's a debate just to challenge and bring in a different perspective, we have customers at Micmac that have come back and said retail media isn't profitable because when they look at the total cost to serve the retailer, you can't just write a check to Walmart Connect, you're also doing trade and you have to pay for fines. And there's a whole slew of other things that go into the relationship with Walmart and they're putting all of that into the model and then it comes back and it says it's not profitable. So within your organizations it seems like that hasn't happened.

[Farah Linden]

Well, we work really closely with the sales team. I think to show what we're doing is all ammo for them to show that, you know, we're investing, we're testing, we're doing all these things to better drive our brand. Relevance at your retailer, just communication, your organization is key.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Got it.

[Josh Jresky]

I think one of the places we're exploring is this notion of creative excellence. I don't think we've kind of collectively discussed that much today, but the notion of kind of sending a retailer a static image and saying run a programmatic open exchange buy and send 70% of our traffic through there because of multi touch attribution and kind of sales lift analysis is not success to us. So we're moving to a place where we're focusing on video content, on high impact content. We have a very complicated story. How are we going to do that with a static image and a 300 by 250 banner? Or the notion that we're creating assets for a desktop ad format when 85 to 90% of our content is consumed on a mobile device? So it's starting in terms of setting expectations with the retailer, what type of creative we're looking to convey to our consumers. That's at the end of the day a win win for both of us.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And how are you thinking of doing that at scale?

[Josh Jresky]

Yeah, that's where, that's where the challenge comes into play. Because of the notion of on site and off site. There are certain retailers out there, and you guys know who they are, that have higher scalability when it comes to on site. From an off site perspective, that's where a lot of them fill the gap. But where there is kind of a new kind of third area is kind of true offline that has now become online from a digital consumption perspective. All those notions that people are talking about in store due diligence and checking their phone or looking at kind of digital screens, that has kind of come into a third wave for us. So it's a kind of a balance of off site, on site and then offline channels that we're trying to maximize the incrementality of doing one plus one equals three and not saying, hey, consumer media, we're on Meta and then retail media. Guess what, we just also have a buy on WMC on meta and then trying to convey that to our leadership team that that's not conflicting with one another.

[Rachel Tippograph]

One day it'll be revealed how everyone is double, triple paying for everything in this room. Hopefully Mic Max wants to reveal that. But Josh, you were sort of getting at this. There's different levels of maturity right now in the ecosystem from the platform side. So from both of your perspectives, like who are the mature players and who are the immature players and then where are you sort of placing your next bets?

[Josh Jresky]

In our kind of scorecard approach, we're looking at do they own their own technology or are they using a licensed third party as a key indication? Also do we have the capabilities of being driving the bus self service, whether it's in house resources or through an agency partner, or is the partner doing kind of that managed service? So for us it's really making sure we fundamentally understand the capabilities of whether they're using third party technology or their first party technology.

[Farah Linden]

Yeah. And I think we agree that the leaders are Amazon, Walmart, like the big players that have really invested in their media capabilities and made some high power acquisitions. Amazon is just growing exponentially.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And what about in beauty?

[Farah Linden]

There's more specialized players and they vary. There's some regional distributors that are really, really old school and then you have the Ultas and the Foras that are really profiting so much on online and offline so that's really important to the well company business, both of them and.

[Josh Jresky]

Also just want to build on too is this notion of kind of the consumer journey and where they're kind of using that first purchase versus repeat purchase, where that loyalty, retention, extension. Certain retailers that have that kind of first purchase but then the consumer gets comfortable with the category and they change their buying habits whether it's online or offline and then especially with certain retailers. So trying to fundamentally understand that dynamic while also relationship managing with the retailer, helping them understand when there are switchers that are happening within our collective brands and how we can work together and especially use retail media investment to address that objective.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Switching gears slightly from the execution internally. Organizationally, you both own brand media and retail media. Who do you ladder up to? Where do you sit in New York?

[Farah Linden]

I sit in marketing. I report to the cmo.

[Josh Jresky]

So we are an other. So we have gone through a reorg. We all saw the slide how that works. We are technically referred to as E neutral. I think it's as close to that center of excellence that you're talking about. We do have a marketing pillar and we have a sales pillar. But E Nutrition is really that COE from a classical sense that people are talking about today.

[Farah Linden]

Yeah. And we're also a coe, even though we sit in marketing because we work with every single team and we work across every single brand.

[Rachel Tippograph]

So I want you to suspend your disbelief for a moment. You're no longer in your roles. You're now the CEOs of your respective companies. As CEO, where do you feel your role should sit within the organization to have the biggest impact on the business?

[Podcast Host]

Jeez.

[Josh Jresky]

I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens with trade marketing. I don't know if this is necessarily answering your question, but I feel like trade is that hybrid trade marketing is interesting because they understand the brand marketing principles, but they also have a very foot in the door with the retailers and the sales teams. So for us, it's not that they're the single source of truth yet, but I think they are well equipped within the organization to be able to speak to both sides. Because while there are business objectives, brand marketing objectives, we cannot avoid having conversations with our retailers. And our trade team is integral in terms of doing fundamental research within consumer marketing intelligence, whether it's shopper intelligence and all those things that we need to make sure are in those media briefs, in those creative briefs to have the effective conversations that we need. So for me, I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens within trade and how much that grows, especially with all the conversations that we're having today.

[Rachel Tippograph]

And trade today sits within sales.

[Josh Jresky]

Yeah. So trade sits within sales. Technically for us, they are separate from brand marketing, even though they're technically a hybrid. So it'll be interesting to see if that still remains within sales or if that kind of shifts into kind of a consolidated marketing team.

[Farah Linden]

I'm very happy where I am in marketing. The media team is a center of excellence and where I see us is continuing to be a center of excellence along with comms, communication strategy, cmi, just those functions that touch multi channels and also add a true expertise and a value. So a center of excellence is where we belong.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Okay. As CEOs, you need to make sure that your teams are firing on all cylinders. Given where the ecosystem is evolving, what do you think are the capabilities and skill sets that are going to be needed for you to continue to be successful?

[Farah Linden]

Lots. But the influencer world is super, super exciting. Lines are blurred. We were talking about this earlier. The best content is ugc. So I think just really understanding that space is super important in paid media right now. E Com, of course, since the lines are blurred and you know, national should work with retail media. But I also think like understanding the platforms and the algorithms. Of course, Meta and TikTok, just understanding how optimization works makes us the skilled expertise. So I think those three things would help.

[Josh Jresky]

Yeah, it's interesting. I fully agree with what you're saying. The one thing I'll build on top of is I think understanding that technology and strategy have become synonymous with one another. If you do not understand the platforms you are activating on, you cannot speak to strategy and then you cannot understand the data and analytics that are coming through and then you can't have those effective conversations, whether it's your external partners or your internal stakeholders. So for us, we are trying to find those kind of unicorns, those people that have had hands on keyboard experience or currently hands on keyboard experience, then also have the ability to be external facing and strategy facing as well. So for us you have to be able to do both. I don't think there's a notion of front and back end anymore. I think in order to really grow your career, you have to be able to do both.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Throwing in one more question before the final question because I realize at MCMAC we have a company value. It's called Put the McMoose in the room. Right. So say the thing that no one's saying that needs to be said. Both of you Own brand media and retail media, but some of the organizations here, it doesn't work that way. These are actually separate functions. What do you think are the benefits or deficits of having them as two different disciplines within the organization?

[Farah Linden]

So I'm playing devil advocates myself because I think the benefits of having them separated is that you keep etail performance marketing and you're very close to the sales side and you're able to optimize that budget. The other side is we're looking at budget fluidity between national and ETEL and tying that together. So I guess it's just having a closer hand on the budget that you're putting forth and the return you're getting back.

[Josh Jresky]

For me, I think you lose the notion of tone of voice when you have a completely different engagement with your consumers in a retail channel. And that asset or set of assets looks fundamentally different than what you're doing on a consumer and an equity based level. The consumer is receiving mixed messaging and I don't think that's a recipe for success.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Well, thank you, guys. Famous last question. What's the bravest thing you've ever done?

[Josh Jresky]

Turning down my dream job. I always thought I wanted to work internationally and then it just came at the wrong time. I decided that living in Jersey, getting married and starting a family was the better path. But every day you're just like, oh, should I win international or not? I have a seven or three year old. So anybody out there with young kids, you know what I'm talking about? In all sincerity, just saying no. Just knowing that long term where I wanted to be was. Was here.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Very cool.

[Farah Linden]

That was a good one. I was gonna say this panel. I was so nervous, but it was really easy and really nice and fun. So I did run a marathon and I had no running experience and that was really, really scary and super exciting. And I trained from start and I ran the New York City Marathon. So that was super brave.

[Rachel Tippograph]

This past year.

[Farah Linden]

No, a long time ago.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Okay.

[Farah Linden]

But I can't believe I did it still because I'm not a runner.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rachel Tippograph]

Proud of you. Well, thank you, Farah and Josh.

[Podcast Host]

Appreciate your insights.

[Josh Jresky]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

If you enjoyed hearing from Farrah and Josh, you actually can hear Brave Commerce episodes from the archives of two people who actually introduced me to those folks. So you can go check out Chris Chesbrough's episode from Wella that we did in 2023 where you can go way back into the archives and hear an episode that we did with a former record employee who was Josh's boss. To hear how that business was evolving. Thanks for listening. Tell a friend Write a Review Share on LinkedIn.

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[Jackie Cooper]

Hi, I'm Jackie Cooper, Global Chief Brand Officer at Edelman and the host of Touch of Truth, a new podcast launching on the Adweek Podcast Network. My dad gave me this incredibly smart piece of advice. Meet everyone once. As a result, I've met some of the most fascinating and inspiring people on the planet. Now on Touch of Truth, we're coming centre stage and sharing the mic to experience stories of truth, insights and visions for the future that will challenge your way of thinking. Touch of Truth is available wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every Tuesday. I do hope to see you there.