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Breaking Beauty Podcast
#DamnGood Foundations Guide! Why Armani, NARS & Estée Lauder Re-Formulated (and Our New Faves to Buy ASAP)
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- [00:01]
A
The following podcast is a Dear media production. Welcome to Breaking Beauty the Podcast, all about the breakthrough people, products and moments in beauty. We're your hosts, Jill Dunn and Carlene Higgins.
- [00:22]
B
Welcome back to Breaking Beauty Podcast, everyone. Happy Wednesday. I one of your co hosts, Jill Dun. And I'm here with Carlene Higgins, like we are every single week. Hey, Carlene.
- [00:32]
A
Hi, everyone.
- [00:33]
B
And of course, we are two longtime magazine beauty editors turned beauty podcasters. And maybe some of you are new to the show because last week we had an epic guest who has a lot of fans, Erica Taylor. And we teased in that episode last week, Carlene, that we were going to be doing a hashtag damn good review episode. Yes.
- [00:53]
A
So if you're not familiar, every month we do one episode where we review all of the products on the market. It could be seasonal, like Best of Spring or Best of Fall, or we just choose a theme. And so those are called our damn good episodes. We test drive everything, give you our honest reviews, and that's what we have in store today on the hot hot topic of foundations.
- [01:16]
B
That's right. We did our Best of Spring, that was in March, and we were going to talk about all the new foundation launches at the time, but frankly, there was just too much ground to cover. Yeah, without question. In our years as of doing this as podcasters and as beauty editors, there's never been more foundation news than there has been this year. So that's absolutely the topic of the hour. And we have a lot to talk about. Everything from, you know, the standouts to the flops, comparing, contrasting, really putting our editor hats on it and explaining the why behind why a lot of this is is happening.
- [01:52]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest headline of the season, and I'm sure a lot of you have been personally impacted if you're a foundation wearer, are the reformulations. They're, you know, the really iconic Armani Estee Lauder double wear. They have been reformulated and there are plenty of others. There's a reason why we're going to get into that very shortly and compare like the old version to the new version. And, and then there's this whole category of serum foundations. And we just continue to see more and more launches in that vein. A lot more like skincare ingredients being put into these foundations. We're going to cover that topic and then we're seeing the new matte. So really the foundations that are bringing like a luminance to the matte world, if that's possible.
- [02:44]
B
Trying to.
- [02:44]
A
Yeah, exactly. So we shall see. We have tested these. Even though we have very specific skin types. I have, I would say, quote, unquote, normal skin, but I do have a lot of texture. So that's where I'm coming from when I'm evaluating. Jill, you have more oily, definitely more oily skin.
- [03:05]
B
And I think that's a good point to bring up, that we're not using the same, we're not critiquing these necessarily in the same way. But we have thoughts. We have lots of thoughts.
- [03:13]
A
It's good that we have different skin types.
- [03:15]
B
We can.
- [03:16]
A
That way we have a little bit of range.
- [03:18]
B
Yeah, exactly. But before we dive into all of that. Carlene, did you know that it is vitamin C month?
- [03:25]
A
I did not. Okay.
- [03:27]
B
Well, we actually have a show partner this week, Vivier, and they wanted to let the people know that it is vitamin C month. I didn't even know that was a thing.
- [03:37]
A
Me neither. But I kind of appreciate it because it's true. It is a topic that comes up over and over again. So it's worth having a fresh look at it once a year. And vitamin C is one of those ingredients where I feel like it is like the sister to retinol in a way where it's like they are the most data backed ingredients and the ones that the dermatologists recommend again and again because they are the goal, they're clinically proven. Yeah.
- [04:09]
B
And I think the reality is that a lot of people, they're still looking for their holy grail of vitamin C and that's why I wanted to share a couple of those options with you today. By the way, what do you know about Vivier, Carlene?
- [04:19]
A
I know they're Canadian.
- [04:20]
B
Yes.
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A
Which I appreciate. Yay. And I believe they're only available in spas. If I'm not mistaken. It is a professional line. You can buy it at the spas. But typically that's how people are introduced to it is through their esthetician or
- [04:35]
B
doctors or dermatologists office. Exactly. Definitely a professional line. Vivier is a Canadian pharmaceutical grade skincare brand and it's really known for its science, backed by clinically proven formulations that are all designed to deliver those real visible results. I want to talk about specifically Carlene, the Vivier Serum 30. It's the high potency brightening serum.
- [04:58]
A
30%.
- [05:00]
B
Everyone vitamin C. That is high. It is high. Now, there's more to this label than you might think. Okay, 30% vitamin C, you're thinking, okay, it's going to be 30%. That's triple the amount as of this, like serum 10, that's 10% vitamin C, but it's not as cut and dry as that, actually. So vitamin C, as we know, like you mentioned, it's a powerful antioxidant that helps brighten the skin. It actually supports collagen production at the cellular level, and it protects against environmental stressors like pollution and UV exposure. What sets Vivier apart is the form everyone of vitamin C that they're using. It's L ascorbic acid, usp. So it's the purest and most potent form available, but also one the hardest to stabilize. And so Vivier, what they have done, they've addressed this with their proprietary IDs delivery system, and that helps maintain stability and allows for deeper, more effective absorption into the skin.
- [06:01]
A
So do they have different, like 10, 20, 30?
- [06:04]
B
They have serum 10, which is here, and serum 30. And so it's a dual approach. Vitamin C, okay, so they have. So serum 30, which is this 30% one I'm talking about, uses 20% of a highly stable vitamin C derivative called ET D VC, that's 3O ethyl ascorbic acid. So that's then combined with 10% L ascorbic acid, USP, which is the purest and most bioavailable form. And together they're delivering this sort of synergistic brightening, collagen boosting and antioxidant power that neither one of them alone could do. So together, they're this powerful dosage of that antioxidant brightening power. Okay, I need to show you now on camera, everybody, so tune into our YouTube, the before and afters, because what they did was before and afters under one of those UV cameras.
- [06:58]
A
Oh, wow.
- [06:59]
B
Never saw it before. Yeah, I'm going to show you right now.
- [07:02]
A
Okay. Oh, wow.
- [07:05]
B
So the blotchiness of the skin, you
- [07:08]
A
can definitely see one side is very light and the other one has a lot of pigment on the cheeks. Yeah, yeah. And in the inner nose area. Isn't that incredible? You can see the before and after.
- [07:19]
B
But what I would also say is that just there's no redness or irritation at all. The uniformity of the complexion afterwards is really amazing. I was impressed. So that's why I wanted to shout it out. Because it's vitamin C month and Vivier, they're really putting their stake in the ground with vitamin C formulations. They have, like a portfolio of vitamin C to choose from. And they said that these results were only made possible through the use of this proprietary delivery system and rival those seen from Hydroquinone, which we know is the prescription strength. If y' all want to learn more, we do have a promo code for Vivier, so you can visit Vivier Skin.com and use code Beauty15 at checkout to receive 15 off your purchase. That's V-I-V-I-E-R Skin.com and use code Beauty 15 for 15 off your purchase. And thank to Vivier for sharing all these amazing insights and partnering with us today.
- [08:16]
A
Yeah. So with all of that, let's get into our damn good foundations roundup. Hi, I'm Natasha Leggero. And I'm Sabrina Jalees. And this is is good enough. It's a different kind of parenting podcast where we share tips, we talk to our coolest parent friends, only the coolest. And we roast trends. What do we do in general? We talk shit. We talk major shit. Yeah. Watch out, Dr. Becky. Yeah, watch out. Wait. But we want her as a guest.
- [09:01]
B
Oh.
- [09:02]
A
So watch. Watch out for our invite girl. New episodes every Wednesday. And don't forget to subscribe. Okay. Jill, I have to ask you about this. Now. I nearly had a heart attack when I heard that Armani luminous silk had been reformulated this year. And I was like, why? Why would they do that to an absolute cult classic? Been recommended by so many makeup artists over the years on our show, even when I was a baby beauty editor. Your Ride or Die Foundation. So why is this happening?
- [09:51]
B
So let's set the scene for everybody.
- [09:54]
A
Okay.
- [09:54]
B
The. The reason brands are doing this is because they're being forced to. Yeah. They are not out of the goodness of their heart, reformulating iconic products that make them millions of dollars every single year. And the reason is an Environmental Impact 1. There's an ingredient that's called.
- [10:13]
A
It's called cyclopenta Saloxane.
- [10:16]
B
Right. So this ingredient, it's actually been banned in wash off products for many years. So cleansers, exfoliators, this type of thing, because they've been. It's been known to accumulate in the waterways. So it's Bandit cleansers, body wash, body washes, things like that. But then they've since discovered that it could potentially accumulate in. For. In products that you were eventually going to wash down the drain.
- [10:43]
A
Yeah.
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B
So makeup.
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A
Makeup. Yeah.
- [10:44]
B
And this particular ingredient is really the ingredient that's giving the slip. I would, I would say it honestly probably inspired the name silk. The silk from feeling you got of luminous silk, putting it on your skin, it dried down. It was like a. It's like volatile. So it's Like a quick dry down, but it's still very blendable and it gave you that silk, like, finish on the skin. Okay. And so that is no longer going to be allowed to be used.
- [11:13]
A
Yeah. And it's interesting because what I think what you're pointing to there is them being forced to. Is that. So I had a makeup artist do my makeup recently and we were talking about foundations and I said, what do you think of all these reformulations? And she had commented that it's because all of these brands want to put skin care ingredients into foundations. And I thought that was fascinating because I was like, that's what they want you to think. So basically their marketing is working very well because that's not what's going on.
- [11:46]
B
I don't think any brand out there wants to reformulate their iconic product. And they. They do have to have a spin on it.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah.
- [11:52]
B
And maybe there are way to improve. So we're going to talk about that all today. But that is why this is happening right now. And if you, in 2025, look for that ingredient, like search for it on Sephora, there were a lot of foundations that had it. Frankly, every single one of my favorite foundations had it. Lancome Tantal Huda Easy Blur Double Wear by Estee Lauder Armani Luminous silk. The list was endless.
- [12:21]
A
Yeah.
- [12:22]
B
You know, so if you wanted that, it gave the slip and it gave the staying power.
- [12:26]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it's.
- [12:28]
B
And here we are.
- [12:29]
A
It's a big, big deal. Should we talk about the shade issue? Is that.
- [12:33]
B
So Armani is not only had to redevelop the entire formula, everyone. They also. It also affected the shade range because it's not just as simple as, like plucking an ingredient out of the formula and making everything else rosy. And it all works. It. It's not like that at all. It really affects. Affects how the pigments lay down on the skin, how they oxidize on the skin and all of these things. So my biggest. The thing that I'm probably the most upset about is that my shade is no longer my shade.
- [13:04]
A
Yeah.
- [13:05]
B
I used to be 4.75 in Armani and now they've indicated that I should be 4.5, but it's not perfect.
- [13:12]
A
It's funny because you and I are the same shade in Armani. I don't know if we are in everything else.
- [13:17]
B
Okay.
- [13:17]
A
But we actually are. And so I was also 4.75 and I also got sent 4.5, and it's not right for me either.
- [13:25]
B
Oh, dear. What are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? But so, first of all, let's be honest. I did stockpile. I went to every Sephora I could find, and I went and got the 4.75 in luminous silk, perfect glow, flawless foundation. So I have both of them here. And the other thing is that they're saying, Carlene, the spin is that they included more range for all of skin tones. Ok, that is good. But then I feel like it should be increasing the breadth and the depth of the shades, not reducing.
- [13:57]
A
Right.
- [13:58]
B
You know, it's like leaving some people out. But do you want to do a side by side of them on your hands so you can see the slip?
- [14:05]
A
I don't know how well you can see that, but I typically find that. See, it's. It's a richer tone and it's more like orange. Orangey. And that's what I've noticed across the board, not only with the reformulations, but with the new ones that I'm calling in as well. So I can immediately tell which is which here.
- [14:27]
B
So now those are the drawbacks. What I will say is it the new formulation does go on beautifully. I was prepared to hate this, everyone, I was. But I didn't mind it as much in terms of, like, how it looked on my skin. I still think it looked beautiful. And I actually did a half. Half face on and I took a photo and put it on my Instagram. And I asked the commenters, which side do you think has the older version and which side do you think has the newer version? Nobody knew. Certainly, though in the. Where I do not get the same. Where I just want the wear and the. The staying power.
- [15:06]
A
So I think it's niacinamide and hyaluronic acid.
- [15:10]
B
I'm gonna. I have it in front of me.
- [15:11]
A
It seems to be the twin that they're all trying to put in these ingredients for an ingredient story.
- [15:19]
B
The luminous silk foundation, they say it's enriched with skincare ingredients and shades are now improved to more true to skin, which may be true for certain skin tones, but not necessarily mine.
- [15:30]
A
Yes. We are seeing this across the board. And I do think, in my opinion, there is a whole recalibration of shades happening across the board.
- [15:40]
B
Yeah.
- [15:41]
A
In all foundations. It. We need to, as consumers, wrap our head, like, go on a new search mission to find our shades because they are not what they used to be. So there is like a shade revolution happening. And I was exploring this online and, like, one of the theories too, is that the all of the AI generation for shades. So all of these apps that we're all using. Yeah. You know, they're on various websites for brands and we're feeding them information about our skin tones and they're like taking into account different lighting scenarios that you might be in. So not just the selfie light that you're in, but in all of these different lighting scenarios and like recalibrating the shades to be truer pigments.
- [16:31]
B
Quote unquote.
- [16:31]
A
Quote unquote. But it's not used to, it's not what we're used to seeing. And so I don't know for sure that that's what's happening, but it does just seem like there is a whole recalibration that that's for sure.
- [16:44]
B
I'm on a journey. I feel like I'm on a journey and I feel like everyone is on a journey and now I just feel like the wheels are off and I kind of don't know what's going on. But all of that being said, I, I do think this works great if you're over 40.
- [17:02]
A
Right.
- [17:02]
B
As well. I do. I, I think that it's. It didn't settle at all. And my issue is that it just didn't last as long.
- [17:10]
A
Yeah. So they probably know their consumer base is, is edging up there as well, so.
- [17:15]
B
And it's me. It's still medium coverage that you can build upon. It still comes out beautiful, goes on beautiful, but it's just that staying power. So that's where I'm at.
- [17:33]
A
Nutrifal is a show partner today. So I received a text from my niece. She was kind of freaking out because she feels like her hair is thinning. Now she's only 20, she's been under a lot of stress, started going to university and that's when I realized, oh my gosh, hair shedding, it's not just for the perimenopausal among us like myself. It's really for anyone who's experiencing stress. It's something that I experienced after I had a baby. It is so omnipresent right now. And the first thing she asked me was what supplement should I take? And immediately I thought of Nutraf Fall because it has been recommended so many times on our show and also because I know that it's the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth brand. Plus it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. So that's saying a lot. I also know that neutral hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, they're NSF certified for sport, which is basically the highest level of certification you can get when it comes to supplements. And it's clinically tested. So I really trust neutral. That's why I take it myself. And I do feel comfortable recommending it to any of my loved ones as well. If you want to try it, let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster. Growing hair in three to six months with neutral for a limited time, Neutrophil is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit neutrafol.com and enter promo code breaking. That's nutrafol.com spelled n-u t r a f o l.com prom code breaking that's neutrophil.com promo code breaking.
- [19:16]
B
Light stem is one of our show partners this week. Without question in my DMs, the conversation is constantly happening about red light therapy devices. People want to know which ones really work, what they should invest in. And my benchmark personally is I ask myself what a professional use this is, it being used in a professional setting. So you're going to get the results that are promised to you. And that's why I love light stem, because light stem has been the secret weapon of dermatologists and plastic surgeons for over 20 years. And now they've brought that professional grade power into your home with the light stem Ellipsa. So this isn't another beauty gadget. It actually is powered by 868 professional grade LED lights. So those are light emitting diodes and those work together to give you radiant, healthy skin. There's no pain, there's no downtime and you can treat wrinkles with it. It's stimulating that collagen and elastin. And they also have a setting where you can treat acne as well. And it's super easy to work into your routine. It's just a few minutes a week. You can do it three to five times and you literally just lie down and it's kind of like a dome that goes over your face. It really is similar to the ones that I've had with professional facialists. LightSTEM is made in the USA and they've actually sold over 60,000 devices to dermatologists, cosmetic surgeons and estheticians over the years. And because it is that professional quality, it actually has five distinct wavelengths, including infrared and deep red to treat your entire face. So if you'd like to try the light stem Ellipsa yourself, we have a very special offer. So if you want the same medical grade technology at home that doctors use to treat wrinkles and slow aging. You can go to lightstim.com and that's spelled light S-T-I-M.com and use our code BEAUTY to save 10. Again, that's code BEAUTY at light stim s t I m dot com. We'll link to the software in our show notes and on our website. Now back to the show.
- [21:24]
A
Now on this skin serum topic, I think that the foundation for me that just really epitomizes this whole trend and notion is the Clarence Double Serum Foundation.
- [21:39]
B
Yes.
- [21:40]
A
Talking about another icon today. But this is a brand new product. However, many of you might be familiar with the Clarence Double Serum. Jill, I know you are massive fans.
- [21:51]
B
That's what's I Double eye Serum, everything.
- [21:53]
A
And typically, so you see this dual chamber with the serum where you have the amber on one side, you have kind of a golden shade on the other, I'm trying to remember with the serum. But anyway, and so you pump it and then they come together and in this beautiful plumping formula. It's so lovely. And so they've now made that into a Foundation. It's 64 US $74 in Canada, 37 Shades launched in January. So this is a dual phase hybrid foundation. This is probably my favorite for my skin out of all of the foundations that I tested because it gives this beautiful luminous satin finish. And one of the things that I like is that it has medium to full coverage.
- [22:40]
B
Yeah.
- [22:41]
A
And for myself, I have a bit of rosacea, I have quite a bit of redness which most of you know. So I need a certain level of coverage. I just can't get by on like a very sheer tint. And so that's what I really like about this, this formula is that it gives you that kind of like juicy plumpness that you feel out of a tint. But you are getting that coverage. And of course, because it is a skincare brand, like they have 14 of their active ingredients, active botanicals in here, nine plant extracts, five active molecules. So I really do think that they're using like that serum, those serum ingredients and putting it in here. Now, you might wonder about this. Why the dual phase bottle? Why do they need it? Right. So they're kind of saying that if, if you had combined these together from the get go, that it wouldn't work like one. I forget exactly what it is. But it's like some of the ingredients in one would kind of eat away at the other and it wouldn't be effective. So that's why they're separated like this. So you get this kind of, like, fresh batch mixing every time you pump it.
- [23:56]
B
Right.
- [23:57]
A
The other thing that I thought was cool about it is that it has 37 shades, and they actually did test it on 213 multicultural women. Yeah. So I do. That's a great news on the shade front. And then the other thing that I would say that's of note in terms of the serum itself and the ingredients that are in there, this one's a little bit different than the other ones when we're talking about hyaluronic acid niacinamide. So this one has papaya fruit enzyme.
- [24:28]
B
Okay.
- [24:28]
A
In it, which is an exfoliator, slightly mild exfoliator. So the idea with this one is that you're getting this. This luminosity instantly. Like, it's got these magical light crystals that reflect light really beautifully, but over time, because you're getting that mild exfoliation, that your skin is actually going to be GLOWIER after, like, 28 days of using the product. So truly, the idea of skin care and foundation in one and having an actual impact on the quality of your skin. So I. I just really like it. I found it gave me a dewy look without being cake, and it's just a great, like, natural finish. And I talked to the PR and I was like, I. I bet this is a hit so far. And she's like, we are sold out in Clarence stores of most of the shades. They're gone.
- [25:21]
B
Well, we do have to mention the one thing about it.
- [25:23]
A
Oh, fragrance. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is French, so.
- [25:27]
B
But it's worth mentioning that it's quite fragranced. It smells like skin care.
- [25:31]
A
Absolutely.
- [25:32]
B
It is skincare.
- [25:33]
A
We will talk about that more in this episode. But the French, they love their perfumes.
- [25:38]
B
Well, I. I tried that and I liked it, but it just. It just melted away. But I think that's really good for, like, a daytime glowy look. It's very clean girl aesthetic, in my opinion.
- [25:47]
A
Again, different skin types. So probably if you have a bit more oily. Just a reminder, I have a bit more quote unquote, normal. So for me, great.
- [25:55]
B
Well, I'm going to hit you with another serum foundation that I tried. It is Mary Phillips weightless serum foundation. This is called L Skin. Okay. So you want to talk about clean girl makeup. Clean girl aesthetic. Mary Phillips is Haley Bieber's makeup artist. This is US$49. So it's pretty affordable. Yeah, Comparatively. I thought it would be way more from a makeup artist LED brand. And it's not available in Canada just yet. There are 35 shades of this particular formula. Now, I'm going to tell you. I went into a Sephora to buy this the day it launched, the whole gondola was full. I went back the next day, half of it was gone.
- [26:37]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [26:38]
B
And one of my nieces, who was in her 20s, knew that I was coming to New York and asked me to buy it for her.
- [26:45]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [26:46]
B
So this is the power of Mary Phillips. It really is beautiful. When it goes on, you're just like, wow. I feel like I'm putting skincare on my face. Did you get to try it?
- [26:54]
A
No.
- [26:55]
B
You can have a little pump of it there. I. It also comes with a. It doesn't come with, but it has. She has a very amazing foundation brush as well that kind of makes you like. Like airbrush it onto your face. It's a very. It's very, very beautiful. Doesn't it feel like skin care?
- [27:09]
A
Yeah, it absolutely does. It. It's. It feels. This isn't the right word, but it is a bit more oil based, I would say.
- [27:17]
B
Yes, exactly. Now, of course, Mary Phillips, she's really well known for her underpainting technique. She had the underpainting palette that you talked about. And so this foundation is meant to go over the underpainting palette, but the idea is that the contour from the underpainting palette is still showing through. So I think that also gives you an indication of the sheerness of this foundation. So I really liked it again at first, but there's not a lot of staying power. And I have heard my niece, who's in her 20s, loved it, is going to rebuy it.
- [27:49]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [27:50]
B
A few people I know that tried it that are a little older said it sunk into every single pore and line.
- [27:56]
A
Right.
- [27:56]
B
So I think it really is dependent on how you want to look, what your skin type is. And if you're going full clean girl or if you want a little bit more coverage, this is probably not going to be for you. But it. There's no doubt it's a beautiful formula. It's just not necessarily for me, but I think she's crushing it. I think it's a star product from within her. Her universe.
- [28:19]
A
Yeah. It go. It very much suits her demographic. Like, if you think about Haley Bieber, which is reportedly one of her clients.
- [28:26]
B
Yeah.
- [28:27]
A
If you have that. That skin type, then it probably looks sensational. Right?
- [28:32]
B
Yeah. And I think that I also did email the PR to ask if Mary had any Tips on how to work it for oily skin. And I never heard back. I tried everyone. I tried. Ok, so that's the review on that. But I think you're exactly right, Carlene. This is a trend. There's no doubt about it. And Natasha Denona came out last at the end of last year with a serum foundation.
- [28:57]
A
It's all about the serum foundations.
- [28:59]
B
Yeah.
- [29:00]
A
Now let's get to this one. The one that looks like a flying saucer. This is outside in Silk serum foundation. Jill, have you seen this before?
- [29:10]
B
So I've heard of the brand, but I've not seen the foundation. Okay.
- [29:14]
A
So for those of you who are just listening and not watching, it looks like a little ink. Well that in the olden days, you know, you'd have like a little jar and then a fountain pen and then inside you pull it out and it's a dropper.
- [29:28]
B
Lovely. Let's not get it on this white.
- [29:30]
A
Drop it on Jill's hand there.
- [29:33]
B
I'm gonna.
- [29:34]
A
And it also, it's frosted glass at the bottom, but then it's like a gray and white speckled matte. So it's giving kind of like Japanese zen modern.
- [29:43]
B
Right.
- [29:44]
A
But natural is kind of the vibe of it. This foundation is 64 in the U.S. $88 in Canada. Not inexpensive. It has 24 shades. It launched late last year. And the most noteworthy thing about this brand is that the founder is Carissa Janes, the original founder of Hourglass and cosmetics and current founder, if you're familiar with Hourglass cosmetics, love this brand so much. So many iconic hits that we love, including their veil tinted moisturizer.
- [30:21]
B
I wear the Hourglass unlocked mascara almost every single day.
- [30:24]
A
Yes.
- [30:25]
B
And the ambient powders.
- [30:26]
A
So, so, so, so beautiful. Yeah. So Carissa went on to she, she did sell the brand Hourglass to Unilever. And so she launched this new line with just three products. The foundation, a face oil and a brush.
- [30:44]
B
Yeah.
- [30:45]
A
So I think that is very telling that this new line is obviously about complexion skin first a little bit more again that skin care makeup hybrid.
- [30:58]
B
Definitely.
- [30:59]
A
And it feels like it could be like a grown up road. Maybe I could be wrong.
- [31:03]
B
Interesting.
- [31:04]
A
So the silk serum foundation, it's considered a hybrid foundation. So of course with the benefits of serum coverage of a foundation, it's said to give you light to medium buildable coverage. Just so you know the again, those actives niacinamide and hyaluronic acid.
- [31:20]
B
Here we go.
- [31:21]
A
Favorites right now, this foundation, Katie Jane Hughes blew it up on Tick Tock late last Year makeup artist. The makeup artist. She's been on our show. She's incredible.
- [31:32]
B
She probably. Did she have a hand in that?
- [31:34]
A
Well, this is it. Is that apparently they worked with. With.
- [31:38]
B
That doesn't surprise me at all because Carissa, when she. She talked about Hourglass, I'll never forget, she said she wanted to bake the makeup artist into the products.
- [31:46]
A
That's right.
- [31:46]
B
So I'm sure she really values makeup artists opinions.
- [31:50]
A
Exactly. So she did work with several makeup artists in the creation of this product. Yeah, that it. All of that. And Katie apparently had said, like, it really feels like silk. Now. What I find that's interesting about this product is that when you drop it out, this was my experience, is that even though it's very fluid, again, it's. Remember, it's coming in this dropper, it sets quite quickly is what I found.
- [32:17]
B
It's reminding me of the Ilia.
- [32:20]
A
Really?
- [32:20]
B
Yeah.
- [32:20]
A
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay.
- [32:22]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:23]
A
But doesn't used Ilia in a while. But yes. It also just kind of reminded me of that product from the Ordinary that I talked about in Best of Spring episode where it's a skin care. It's a moisturizer, but it comes in a dropper. So it's like very condensed nano particles. So when you put it on, it's like you get so much moisturization. Even though it's this liquid, it. It like gives you this real moisturizer feel. I feel like with this one, even though it's so like thin and viscous, when you put it on, you just get this immediate coverage where I was like, whoa, I wasn't expecting that.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah. My apologies. I meant to say it's the seal. The CL1, like C, I, E, L, E. Oh, okay. That's a. That's a serum. Also a medium coverage serum foundation.
- [33:11]
A
Right.
- [33:11]
B
That a lot of like, I know that the Sephora sale is just wrapped up and a lot of makeup artists had that seal one in their cart. I saw them making tik toks about it.
- [33:21]
A
So.
- [33:21]
B
Similar idea.
- [33:22]
A
Yeah, exactly. So what they say about the technology is that it suspends weightless spherical powders within a liquid serum base face, and it's designed to blur in imperfections, refine pores, and create the soft focus effect. I do really like this product. I do think it's like, it doesn't take a learning curve, but I want to use it more. I think you need to like really work your skin care underneath because it is. It's designed to be self setting. It's got this self Setting light technology. To me, what that means is, like, it dries down pretty fast is what I'm trying to say. So. So you want to, like, really have your skin nice and moisturized before you apply it.
- [34:04]
B
The juice going.
- [34:05]
A
And interestingly, they say that it's not recommended to use with a sponge. They recommend using fingers with the brush or your fingers. So, okay, yeah, I'm gonna play with it more, but I can buy that brand and outsidein.com at the moment. I think they might have. Oh, but here's late breaking news, everyone. Spring will mark the opening of its first flagship store in soho, New York.
- [34:29]
B
Oh, gosh. Okay, we gotta make a field tr.
- [34:31]
A
Yep.
- [34:31]
B
Very good. Okay, so that was a winner for you, right?
- [34:34]
A
Yeah.
- [34:34]
B
We're talking about takeaways here. Double Serum was a winner.
- [34:37]
A
That was my favorite. I love. And the next one would be, well, another favorite. I liked the outside in.
- [34:44]
B
You liked it?
- [34:45]
A
I did like it. Today's episode is brought to you in part by Timeline. So Jill and I just got back from the American Academy of Dermatology, and we've been talking about how longevity is the word on everyone's lips. Every dermatologist, every brand that was there. So what's it all about? It's about the concept of cell care. Looking after your cells as much as you do anything else. So whether you're talking about your skin care routine or whether you're talking about what's going on inside the body that impacts everything, it's all about cell care. So one essential component is mitochondria. Those are the tiny energy factories inside your cells responsible for your entire cellular energy system. This is where timeline steps in, because timeline has introduced mitopure. Mitopure is a supplement containing urolithin A that supports the cellular process called mitophagy. And mitophagy helps the body of remove damaged mitochondria. It recycles cellular components supporting healthier mitochondrial function. And this really can show up as helping with your cellular energy, your muscle strength recovery, and healthy aging. Above all, the science is there with timeline. They have spent more than 15 years researching mitochondrial health. They've invested over $50 million in research and conducted multiple human clinical trials. In fact, participants, percent improvement in muscle strength in four months with no change in exercise using timeline. And yes, they did have a booth at the aad. So this is something you're going to want to try this year. You can stack it with your protein, your creatine routine. That's what I've been doing at home and Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mito Pure now starts at $79. When you go to timeline.com breaking Blissey
- [36:54]
B
is supporting our show this week. Who knew there was so much power in a pillowcase? But honestly, there is. I made the switch to sleeping with silk pillowcases a few years ago now and I really noticed that my hair is less frizzy and I'm the type of person that I sleep on my side, so I notice I get less of those creases on my face when I'm sleeping with a silk pillowcase. And something that not a lot of people talk about is the fact that silk pillowcases, they are actually cooling. Like, I really find that they keep me more comfortable when I am sleeping. And the reason that I love Blissey and it makes such a great gift too, by the way, with bridal showers coming up and graduations and Mother's Day. The reason I really like Blissey is because they have 100 pure mulberry silk. So it's top of the line. They have over a hundred colors, which is incredible. And they're easy care. They're fully machine washable, so no muss, no fuss. Us. And they've had over 3 million sold. And they've been written up in Vogue, Oprah daily. They've been chatted about on Good Morning America. So everybody is getting much better sleep with their Blissey silk pillowcases. Plus they have so many other additional products that make your sleep better. So there's sleep masks and silk bonnets and crease preventing scrunchies, which are all really fun and they all come in different colors as well. Well, and good news, because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free, plus an additional 30 off when you shop@blissey.com breaking that's B L I S S Y.com breaking. And use code breaking to get an additional 30 off your skin and hair. Will thank you. We'll link to the software in our show notes and on our website. Now back to the show. We are halfway through this episode. We haven't even talked about double wear yet. So let's do it.
- [38:52]
A
Yeah.
- [38:53]
B
So Estee Lauder Double wear, I think it is one of the most iconic foundations that's ever been born.
- [38:58]
A
Absolutely.
- [38:58]
B
Wearing it today, beloved by bridal makeup artists, beloved by gymnasts. I know Simone Biles wore Estee Lauder double wear unsponsored at the Olympics. Like crushing it, you know, so it
- [39:10]
A
just really performs is the longwear of the long wear. Yeah, the longest wear of the long wear.
- [39:16]
B
That's right. And they have reformulated with their new double wear. So the full official name is the new Double Wear Stay in place. Lightweight matte foundation with 36 hour wear, 52 US dollars, 67 in Canada, 57 shades.
- [39:33]
A
Wow.
- [39:33]
B
So it's up there. Yeah. I laughed last week when we had Erica Taylor on the show because she called the original one. Again, I think the original was very much love it or hate I it. Yeah, she was a hater of the original. She called it cadaver wear. And I think there were a camp of people that wouldn't have gone near
- [39:49]
A
this because it's long wear and because
- [39:51]
B
it's full coverage and matte. Yeah, very matte. Stay in place. It's like it's almost waterproof.
- [39:57]
A
Yeah.
- [39:57]
B
You know how. How much it stayed in place. So the new formulation is technically longer wear because they've tested it with 36 hours, but very different formulations. Once again, I think if you really were ride or die for the original one, this is going to be a shock to the system in the sense that it's. It doesn't go down on the skin the same. When I put it on, I was like, oh, this feels like a completely different foundation. Like, it goes on nice, but it ain't double wear from the past.
- [40:28]
A
Different.
- [40:29]
B
Yeah. So I liked it more than I thought I was going to. And I actually wore this in Denver when we were on doing our live podcast there, and I thought my skin looked really good and I thought that it did last, but it's not like this one is more weightless feeling.
- [40:47]
A
Yeah.
- [40:48]
B
Would you agree? Have you tried this one?
- [40:49]
A
Yeah. So I'm wearing it right now.
- [40:51]
B
Oh, you are.
- [40:52]
A
So earlier today, Jill and I did a live podcast with Shiseido and Lucy Hale, and it was very like, high profile.
- [40:58]
B
Tune in if you didn't.
- [40:59]
A
So we were swatching makeup on my hand with the makeup artist deciding which one to use, and I. And I was like, that one. And it was double wear because. And I chose it because it was clearly fuller coverage and it's long wear. And I was like that. Like for camera on camera.
- [41:17]
B
Yes.
- [41:18]
A
It is the go to. And I could tell the difference. I could immediately tell the difference. But now it's several hours in and I'm still happy with it.
- [41:26]
B
I think your skin looks great.
- [41:27]
A
Yeah.
- [41:28]
B
But I will say that you probably would have hated the original formula.
- [41:32]
A
Yeah, I wasn't. It's not that I hated it, but I just I wasn't a fan like it was. I just. Yeah, it was too full coverage. And even today I would say that this is not my everyday foundation. I would use this for, like I said, special events when I need long wear. But for me, I just like a more natural finish.
- [41:50]
B
Yeah.
- [41:50]
A
So I would choose something else.
- [41:52]
B
Yeah. So they say that the new double wear immediately balances skin with oil control and hydration. So it has glycerin in there at hyaluronic acid, niacinamide, brown algae extract. So that apparently helps to reduce oil production over time, which it's a pretty big claim. Yeah, I can't speak to that. I haven't used it long enough. I just have these little baby bottles of it, the little samples. And they did extensive research on this. They did real consumers across every depth and undertone, 14,000 plus skin tone measurements from thousands of people across five continents, validating each real shade of real skin. Now, I don't know. Did they have the assistance of AI to do that? I don't know. They called it the craftsmanship and they said it was 50 hours to handcraft each shade.
- [42:40]
A
Yeah.
- [42:40]
B
With scientists masterfully calibrating the right balance of pigments to match every skin tone measurement that they had come up with. So it is still oil free, it's still dermatologist tested. And I can tell you after wearing it a few times, as an oily skin person, I didn't break out, which is great. And you just have to shake it really well, much like the old formulation. I will come back to this. I will come back to this to probably wear it on camera as well. So that's a good thing. I think it's, it's not all lost. Now, Erica Taylor said she hated the old one, loves the new one.
- [43:11]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [43:12]
B
Right. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of that.
- [43:14]
A
Yeah, exactly. There seems to be a consensus, I think that if you never tried the original, you'll probably love of the new one with these reformulations. But if you were a die hard on the old one, they are different. And if you are a die hard on your foundation, you're probably not going to want any change. But one little thing I will say about the Estee Lauder double wears. I read that it took seven years, 100 scientists and 300 formulations to get the reformulation right. I mean, I feel like Estee Lauder knows where their bread is buttered. Yeah. And they weren't going to take this lightly.
- [43:48]
B
Definitely not.
- [43:49]
A
Yes.
- [43:49]
B
By the way, they, they say it's the. The full of life matte. We're getting creative over here.
- [43:54]
A
Wow. Wow. Yeah. The whole new descriptions of the Matte, dimensional, matte, soft focus, matte, all of that. Okay, I'm going to do a really quick drugstore buy going back to that Serums foundation, because Maybelline came out with Plump and Glow foundation.
- [44:14]
B
The li from their Lifter franchise.
- [44:15]
A
From their Lifter franchise. Yeah, it's the Lifter foundation, Lifter, Plump. And this is a radiant foundation that is so inexpensive. And I traditionally, I really like a lot of Maybelline foundations. I've talked about them plenty of times before. So it's 16 in the US and $20 in Canada. It has hyaluronic acid, has 24 shades, and this is said to be a dupe for Patrick Tawes Foundation. Obviously a fraction of the price. Now, it's interesting because I put this foundation on and I was like, oh, no, this isn't going to work for me at all. Like, it gives you this instant glow. And I'll be honest with you, same thing happened with the Patrick TA and then the second that I touch my face, that foundation is gone.
- [45:08]
B
Yeah.
- [45:08]
A
It's just like, bling. Totally on. And I'm like, who can wear that? I don't know what kind of setting, spray or primer you need, but it's that very, very glowy, luminous look. So in that way, I could see the parallel. I was like, maybe they nailed it, but it's not for me. And sure enough, again, I was talking to this makeup artist. By the way, whenever a makeup artist is doing my makeup, I am drilling them about everything. Like, I am using that full hour for sure. Getting my money's worth. I'm like, so anyways, I asked her about this foundation, and she said she loves it.
- [45:42]
B
It.
- [45:43]
A
So it just goes to.
- [45:44]
B
She.
- [45:44]
A
And she's much younger than me and has a lot of young clients. So it just goes to show that, like, one person's, you know, Poison is another one.
- [45:52]
B
It's polarizing power, right? Polarizing. Always.
- [45:55]
A
Yeah. So if you're into the Patrick ta, maybe you want to try this.
- [45:59]
B
What I appreciated about that is the number of Tick Tock videos I'm being served for that particular foundation. And they are using girls in their 20s, and they are. They are using influencers in their 60s.
- [46:09]
A
Okay.
- [46:10]
B
And I appreciate that. So it's like people want. People want that glow.
- [46:15]
A
Yeah.
- [46:16]
B
At different stages of their life for different reasons. So I was. I was into that. But for 20 bucks, it's. It's Plumping, and it's glowing.
- [46:23]
A
Like, what else can we say? Lifting. I'm gonna. I'm gonna put a question mark on that one, right?
- [46:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. Really quickly, I'm gonna talk about the NARS reformulation of their foundation.
- [46:34]
A
That was another big shakeup.
- [46:36]
B
Yeah. Okay. So the new NARS Natural Matte Longwear Poor Blurring Med Coverage Foundation, $55, $70 in Canada, 40 shades right out the gate. This is definitely best for. For oily skin types. I think it's one of my favorites that I tried for on camera. I wouldn't necessarily wear it, though, every day because it is. Even though they're saying natural matte, girlies, it is matte. It is absolutely matte. If you're dry skin, run. That's what I'm telling you right now. Do not waste your time or money. It's definitely for on camera. And you will look flawless. You. You could look really flat if you're super dry skin.
- [47:20]
A
Because it's full coverage, too.
- [47:21]
B
Correct. Medium to full. But she's giving full. And even for me, it was pretty full. You know, I. I did like it, though. My problem with NARS and it persists is I can never get my right shade. So I'm wearing it around my apartment because I'm not gonna wear it. Particular shade that I got. And yes, it was full coverage. It lasted, but it was still not my right shade.
- [47:46]
A
Right.
- [47:46]
B
And that has been an issue with me from day one with Nars.
- [47:49]
A
Yeah.
- [47:50]
B
How many shades did you say there's 40. Wow.
- [47:53]
A
Okay.
- [47:54]
B
So I tried, and actually, I had a makeup artist do my makeup who has helped NARS in the past, and she recommended a shade to me, and lo and behold, that's what I had. It was close enough, but I would still feel like. Like if I wore that shade out in public, people would be like, she doesn't know how to blend her foundation.
- [48:09]
A
Y got it right.
- [48:11]
B
So that's kind of where we're at. But again, that's another holy grail. That is we're out here struggling for our lives.
- [48:18]
A
Yeah, exactly. You know, my advice would be for people when you're trying these reformulations is you got to go back to the counter, I think, to do it online and to try to get your shade. You're going to be frustrated, you're going to waste your money, and you're going to be annoyed. So I think we are at the time where it's. It's time to go back to the counter and get yourself re. Swatched.
- [48:40]
B
Yeah. And they Also need to start selling minis of all of these. Truly. They really do. But I did think it was blurring, more blurring than the previous one. And I did think that there was more oil control going on, but it's, it's very different.
- [48:54]
A
Okay, interesting, because I know you. You like, you are.
- [48:57]
B
You like control. Yeah.
- [48:59]
A
I would say on the opposite end of the spectrum from that. And this is the most expensive luxury foundation that I tried it tried of the lot. This is the Hermes plein air luminous matte foundation. Yeah. It's US$145 and 180 Canadian gel.
- [49:18]
B
Yes.
- [49:18]
A
Launched in January of this year and it is Hermes's first true foundation. They launched when they first launched, I believe it was back in 2022. They launched with a tinted foundation. It was a very sheer tint that was like the new trend coming in, very skin care focused. This one is the first actual foundation. It still has the name plant air, which is that open air concept. So it's meant to be very airy. The luminous matte about it. They're saying it has soft focus pigments. Hyaluronic acid is going to give you a bit more of that juiciness with, with the matte.
- [49:56]
B
Yeah.
- [49:56]
A
Again, not being dry and it has 16 hour hold is the claim. Now I tried this. It was quite the PR package that came. You can imagine the, the orange is gorgeous. It came with a primer. Now the primer I immediately bend because it was so fragrance. I put it on, but it was again, the French beauty. Like it was mind boggling. And they are not even just. They are proud of it. Like in the press kit. It's like this is the, the nose who created the fragrance that is going into this primer. I'm like, what? This is so not North American. So that just wouldn't be good for my skin. So I just put this on on its own with the beautiful, beautiful brush which you can purchase separately. I can tell you when I put this on, it felt, I don't know if it was the combination with the brush. It feels, it does feel like silk going on. It's like, oh, interesting silk scarf. It is so, so it does feel like a luxury moment. I think that the finish is absolutely stunning. What I found though is throughout the day it did start to break up on my edges.
- [51:15]
B
This is what I've heard about it is that it's, it breaks all apart.
- [51:21]
A
It breaks apart in like the high movement areas between my nose, like my chin, which my jaw line, that kind of thing. So I will continue to use it, but I do really want to get the right primer base, maybe use a setting powder, because I do think it's stunning at first go. It's a sheer to medium buildable finish.
- [51:43]
B
The.
- [51:44]
A
The base of it is 82% skin care is what they say. So it does have that, like, beautiful skin care, like, feel to it. There are 34 shades with three undertones, obviously. Cool, neutral, and warm. I will continue to use it. Very elegant, but perhaps I just want to get it where it's going to last on me. And maybe I'll try that primer again.
- [52:09]
B
Yeah. I don't know, guys. $145. But really quickly, one that was the most ambitious launch, I think, was the Dior Forever Skin, because not only did they reformulate the Forever Skin, they also reformulated Forever Skin and Glow. So Peter Phillips has been busy. So these are two different finishes.
- [52:29]
A
Wow.
- [52:30]
B
Same, same shade range, two different finishes from Dior. So the Forever Skin Glow and the Forever Skin Wear Wear. The Forever Skin Wear is for oily skin types and the Forever Skin Glow is obviously for someone who's more normal to dry. And it's buildable medium to high coverage. And dare I say that the Forever Skin might be my favorite that I tried.
- [52:52]
A
Oh, cool.
- [52:53]
B
But I did really like this. And I think the shades were pretty good. It did oxidize on me, though, a little bit.
- [53:00]
A
Yeah.
- [53:01]
B
So I need to go back and play more again with primers again. I think I'm going to be doing this all friggin year. I'm going to be honest with playing with shades, with tones.
- [53:10]
A
I think they're all skewing a little bit more yellow, a little bit more
- [53:14]
B
like just the tendency that at the end of the day, I look in the mirror. Not necessarily specific to this Dior one, but just something ain't right.
- [53:22]
A
Y.
- [53:23]
B
Something ain't right. And I don't.
- [53:26]
A
And people who are. If you're experiencing this, maybe you're a makeup artist and you have a different skin tone than us, please jump in. Maybe you're like, finally, finally they're warmer to suit, you know.
- [53:37]
B
Yeah.
- [53:37]
A
My skin or this clientele, like, would love to have that breadth.
- [53:42]
B
Yeah. And this is the Dior. They said this. 42 shades and six undertones again. Yeah.
- [53:48]
A
So more than three.
- [53:49]
B
Peter Phillips, he's been busy.
- [53:51]
A
Yeah.
- [53:51]
B
Dior. Invite us to meet him. I would love that. Take me behind the scenes.
- [53:55]
A
I've interviewed him before. He's a very artist. Artiste.
- [53:59]
B
Yeah. Now, one last one. What did you think of the rare beauty? Because they do a great job with formulation. I've heard from a couple makeup artists, it's if you have oily skin, you'll love it.
- [54:08]
A
This is the rare beauty. True to myself. Natural Matte Longwear Foundation. It's 38 US 52 in Canada. Launched at the beginning of April. It's 48 shades. It's a breathable, buildable foundation that delivers medium to full coverage with a natural matte finish.
- [54:22]
B
Natural matte.
- [54:24]
A
It's supposed to give you, it's supposed to prime, cover and set a three in one. I hated it because is it's been a long time since I've used a foundation that shows every single four pore, accentuates them so that you can give them each a name. Yeah, and same with all of my wrinkles, especially my po d' orange on my chin. So I was pretty mad about this and I went back and looked and the original foundation that they launched with, they discontinued.
- [54:52]
B
Or, or was it a reformulation?
- [54:55]
A
Nope. This is a brand new foundation. The original one that they launched with in the early days, which I actually quite enjoyed, is gone. And it never did have that ingredient in it, by the way. So that's not the reason that they discontinued it. That from my research. So they launched this one instead. I think it's suitable for young people. I gave it to my daughter. She really liked it.
- [55:18]
B
Great.
- [55:19]
A
She's 15.
- [55:20]
B
All right, well, you know, we'll leave it there.
- [55:22]
A
To Shaka Song is an expression I learned in grade four French.
- [55:26]
B
Yeah.
- [55:27]
A
To each his own.
- [55:28]
B
That's right. So everything that we talked about today, we're going to link to it on our website, which is breaking beauty podcast.com. this is the great debate in beauty right now. We will continue to try more as more foundations will roll out. I dare say that if you have never launched a foundation yet as a brand, it's your lucky year because you have nothing to compare it to. And that's where my heart kind of does go out to these brands who are trying their best to deliver what people are expecting from an old favorite. And that's really hard. And so I, I, I think it's a really tall order.
- [56:01]
A
Yes.
- [56:02]
B
And so I, you know, I want to keep that in mind.
- [56:05]
A
Join the conversation in our comments on YouTube and in on our Instagram. We want to hear from you and your thoughts on these products.
- [56:14]
B
Thank you.
- [56:15]
A
See you next week. Thanks for listening. You can find details on every product mentioned in today's episode along with our exclusive exclusive promo codes on our blog@breaking beautypodcast.com While you're there, be sure to
- [56:28]
B
sign up for our newsletter. Every episode will be delivered directly to your inbox so you won't miss a
- [56:34]
A
single thing and get social with us. Let us know what you think of the episode. You can follow us on Instagram at Breaking Beauty Podcast and did you know
- [56:42]
B
we also have a private Facebook group? Just search Breaking Beauty Podcast chat room.
- [56:46]
A
You can even leave us a voicemail at any time with questions or feedback at 1-844-227-0302.
- [56:53]
B
And don't forget to subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast fix. Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts and Apple Podcasts where you can show us some love by writing a review.
- [57:04]
A
See you. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.
- [57:35]
B
Insurance isn't one size fits all.
- [57:38]
A
That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Price and Coverage Match limited By state law, VRBO makes it easy to claim your dream summer spot with early booking deals, from homes with pools to poolside loungers.
- [58:12]
B
When you book a vrbo, you don't have to reserve any loungers.
- [58:15]
A
They're all yours. All you have to do is book
- [58:18]
B
early book with VRBox.