How-to Address Hair Thinning on a Budget, New Thinking Behind Hair Fallout and Why Drugstore Haircare is so #DamnGood with Scientist Dr. Jeni Thomas

Summary

Breaking Beauty Podcast — “How-to Address Hair Thinning on a Budget, New Thinking Behind Hair Fallout and Why Drugstore Haircare is so #DamnGood”

Guest: Dr. Jeni Thomas, Global Principal Scientist at Pantene
Hosts: Jill Dunn and Carlene Higgins
Date: February 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the science (and emotions) surrounding hair thinning and shedding, focusing on affordable, drugstore-friendly approaches. Hosts Jill Dunn and Carlene Higgins, both longtime beauty editors, welcome Dr. Jeni Thomas—Pantene’s Global Principal Scientist—to discuss the latest research on hair fallout, emerging scalp care trends, external factors affecting hair health, and why drugstore haircare is more sophisticated than many consumers assume. Dr. Thomas introduces Pantene's new “Abundant & Strong” collection, unpacks myths around shampoo ingredients, and shares practical science-backed advice for anyone seeing more hair in their brush or drain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Science Behind Modern Drugstore Haircare

(03:08–04:59)

• Drugstore shampoos are backed by immense scientific research and innovation, not simply “basic” formulas.
• Pantene employs over 200 scientists globally to research genomics, proteomics, and new tech, even borrowing problem-solving tools from fields like the energy industry.
• “There is a crazy amount of research that goes on behind this little bottle that you see in the store…constantly advancing.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [03:08]

2. The Rise of Scalp Care—A Shift in Beauty Culture

(04:59–06:34)

• Scalp care has become a major industry trend, departing from a time when scalp talk was “very French girl.”
• People now view hair as a long-term health asset, much like skin, shifting focus to its future strength and density.

3. Hair Loss after COVID and the New Openness

(06:34–09:09)

• Hair shedding conversations became normalized during COVID; two out of three women are now concerned about hair loss.
• “It’s always been there. It just wasn’t commonly talked about.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [07:17]
• Younger generations are focused on prevention, not just acceptance or crisis management.

4. Normal Shedding vs. True Thinning

(12:35–14:29)

• “Normal” shedding is 50–150 hairs/day, but get to know your own baseline.
• Early signs: bigger hairballs in brushes/drains, not just visible scalp or thinner ponytails.

Notable Quote

“You should give yourself grace if you see some [hair fall] and say, okay, that’s normal... Thankfully nature has done this hair loss process in a way...they’re coming from all over your head.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [14:33]

5. Shedding vs. Breakage — And What Causes Them

(15:04–15:48)

• Breakage is mechanical or chemical damage; shedding happens from the root.
• Both are addressed differently in product formulation, but reducing both impacts visible hair fall.

6. Internal vs. External Stressors — New Role of Free Radicals

(16:36–19:08)

• Beyond hormones and life stage, external stressors (UV, pollution, oxidized scalp oils) contribute to excessive hair shed.
• Free radicals loosen the scalp’s hold on hair follicles, like a sweater stretching out, leading to premature fallout.
• “Scalp oxidative stress is emerging as this really common cause because we’re all exposed to UV every day.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [16:36]

Notable Moment

Hosts compare scalp pore “sagging” to facial pore sagging, visualizing hair’s lost anchor [18:35–18:43].

7. Why Pantene’s Approach Skips Vitamin C—and What It Uses Instead

(19:39–21:08)

• For scalps, Pantene’s new system uses a “provitamin complex”:
  • Powerhouse ingredients: Paractone olamine (for antioxidant action in oily, warm scalp environment), provitamin B5, and niacinamide.
  • These three act synergistically for boosted antioxidant activity, clinically proven to reduce oxidative stress and shedding.
• Routine: shampoo/conditioner for wash days, daily serum (non-oily, quick-dry) for “any frequency” antioxidant application.

8. Practical Advice for Reducing Fallout—And Common Misconceptions

Washing Frequency
(28:48–31:05)

• More frequent hair washing = healthier scalp, as it removes oxidized oils and pollution.
• Shedding seen in the shower is usually “catch-up” from hairs already detached days earlier, not caused by washing or conditioner.
• “That’s the detangling effect that’s letting it fully release from your mass of hair.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [30:48]

“Bad” Ingredients?
(31:08–33:39)

• No evidence that silicones or sulfates cause hair loss or block follicles; historical studies show no difference after a year of use.
• Sulfates actually help deliver antioxidants in Pantene’s antioxidant shampoos.

9. The Value of Drugstore Haircare — Is Expensive Better?

(33:55–35:44)

• Objective testing shows $10 conditioners perform as well as $60 ones; science and research, not price or packaging, drive effectiveness.

Notable Quote

“With objective test, looking at the performance that you get, we don’t see that you get more by paying more.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [34:47]

10. Seasonal Shedding & Clinical Studies

(35:53–38:34)

• “Seasonal shed” (increased loss in fall and spring) is normal and scientifically tracked.
• Antioxidant approaches help “flatten” these peaks, keeping more hair on your head during these cycles.

11. Universality of Results

(38:36–39:49)

• Pantene’s testing (500 people, all hair types/ethnicities) shows results are consistent regardless of hair texture—since the focus is scalp/root, not just the hair shaft.

12. The Role of AI and High-Tech Tools in Hair Science

(39:49–41:37)

• Use of AI in clinical studies for hair counting, analyzing breakage vs. root shed, and high-res scalp imaging.
• Hosts had their own scalp density measured at the Pantene event—“You could literally see that I had like three hairs growing out of one follicle.” — Jill [41:14]

13. Emotional Realities & Final Advice

(42:43–43:43)

• Hair shedding is emotional and common—“you’re in the majority.”
• First line: Talk about it, try simple, accessible solutions; visit a dermatologist for deeper investigation if needed.

Notable Quote

“If you are noticing hair shed, you’re in the majority…two out of three women are concerned with this.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [42:51]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On drugstore science:
  “There is a crazy amount of research that goes on behind this little bottle…” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [03:08]

• On normalizing hair loss:
  “It’s always been there. It just wasn’t commonly talked about.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [07:17]

• Visualizing free radicals:
  “Imagine the scalp skin becoming really loose…like a really nicely worn sweater.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [18:35]

• Washing & Conditioner myth-busting:
  “That’s the detangling effect that’s letting it fully release from your mass of hair.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [30:48]

• On price vs. performance:
  “We don’t see that you get more by paying more.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [34:47]

• On how common this is:
  “If you are noticing hair shed, you’re in the majority…two out of three women are concerned with this.” — Dr. Jeni Thomas [42:51]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:08 — Drugstore vs. Luxury Hair Science
• 05:21 — Mindset Shift: Scalp Care = Skin Care
• 07:10 — Post-COVID Hair Loss: New Normals
• 12:35 — Shedding vs. Thinning: What’s Normal?
• 15:04 — Difference Between Breakage & Shedding
• 16:36 — The Role of External Stressors (Free Radicals)
• 19:39 — Antioxidants: Why Pantene Skips Vitamin C
• 28:48 — Should We Wash More? Breaking Myths
• 31:08 — Silicones, Sulfates, and Ingredient Myths
• 33:55 — Drugstore vs. Luxury Price/Performance
• 35:53 — Seasonal Shedding Explained
• 38:36 — Does Hair Type Change Results?
• 39:49 — AI & Modern Hair Science Tools
• 42:43 — Emotional Impact & Where to Start

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Final Takeaways

• Most hair loss is common, and modern solutions—especially affordable, research-backed ones—are increasingly effective.
• Drugstore does not mean “basic”; it can be as scientifically advanced as luxury.
• New thinking: Environmental factors and oxidative stress deserve attention, not just hormones and genetics.
• Comfort and community matter—don’t be afraid to talk about it and seek help.

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For more details (including products, links, and exclusive promo codes), check the Breaking Beauty Podcast website or follow their social channels.

Transcript

[A]

The following podcast is a dear media production.

[B]

Welcome to Breaking Beauty the podcast.

[A]

All about the breakthrough people, products and moments in beauty.

[C]

We're your hosts, Jill Dunn and Carlene Higgins. Hello and welcome back to Breaking Beauty

[A]

podcast with your weekly fill of what's

[C]

damn good in the beauty world. I. I'm Carlene and this is my co host, Jill Dunn.

[B]

Hey. Hey guys. We've been with you for nine years now on the microphone, of course. We're two longtime beauty editors turned beauty podcasters, sharing the breakthrough people, products and moments in beauty every single week. And Carlene, today we have a very exciting episode for everyone.

[C]

Uh, yeah, we do. We're partnering up with our friends at P and G once again. And we've been doing this for like 20 years. Since our. Yes, since our magazine days. Really?

[B]

Yeah. P and G introduced me to a lab coat for sure. So whether it's like Olay riding around in your car talking about SPF everyday

[C]

sunscreen with my, with my sunroof open,

[B]

we've also talked to plenty of P and G hair scientists, hair stylists over the years. And you know, I'm a drugstore girly at heart. We all know that. So today's episode is very exciting.

[C]

Yes. We're thrilled to bring you an education packed episode brought to you in part by our friends at Pantene.

[B]

And Carlene, you and I were talking because we were fortunate enough last night to go to the Pantene event and there was a hairbrush there and there was a hairbrush that had like no hair shedding in it and then there was a hairbrush that was full and you were like relatable.

[C]

Yes, that was me on the left, that was you on the right. And it's not fair, but it's the reality. So if you've ever felt like, is this normal when you look in the drain and see a pile of hair, this episode is definitely for you. So this is on the heels of Panten latest launch. It's a three piece collection called Abundant and Strong. And we are welcoming the absolutely brilliant Dr. Jenny Thomas, Global Principal Scientist at Pantene.

[B]

Welcome Dr. Jenny.

[D]

Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be with you both.

[B]

Thank you so much. Well, I need to blow you up a little bit because you have so much incredible expertise that you're going to share with us today. And Dr. Thomas, she's been deep in the lab, bringing us affordable, science backed solutions to the most common hair challenges. And this week's episode, we're going to dive deep into the real science of hair shedding, everyone. How not just internal stress, but external stress might be impacting your hair density. And by the way, this collection is very exciting. They we at the event last night got to hang out with Abby Young from the Abby Young method. So all the girlies are bonding over shedding hair. Shedding, right.

[C]

Yes, it's a reality, like I said for myself included. So you're a Pantene scientist, but as an insider, tell us why drugstore shampoo is just as good as the luxury products like give us a behind the scenes of the of science and surveys and research that you all do. Because I know even last night we were looking at peer reviewed papers backing up the science. So tell us about that.

[D]

Yes, there is a crazy amount of research that goes on behind this little bottle that you see in the store and that I think the perception can often be drugstore shampoos, they're just the basic ones, the simplest ones. And that couldn't be further from truth. I came into this field 20 years ago thinking do we know everything there is to know about hair, about shampoo conditioner formulation? And that assumption was proven wrong. It's constantly learning more, constantly advancing. So we're talking about tools like genomics, proteomics, formulation advances using tools that come from the energy industry. You're taking things that are non traditional for beauty to see what more can we learn? How can that help us get to better solutions? What dots can we connect? And honestly, that's what got us to where we are today with this abundant and strong collection.

[B]

Yeah, very cool.

[C]

I always joke with Jill, I'm like, you know, png, they just have more money than God so they put it all into the research, earmuffs, PNG in the room. But no, but it's like there really is so much science and yet it's so affordable. And that's why Jill and I have joked we're like, just use your Olay and Botox. Like that is. That's it, the end of story.

[B]

That's the secret.

[D]

We do have more than 200 scientists that are behind Pantene around the world. And I mean you've been to the labs, you've seen that many of these scientists have been in this space for many years. Like there's just a love for, for what's possible and the fascinating substrates of scalp and hair and all the things that we can learn. So you have a very passionate group of people working constantly to get us to better results.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you make of this total industry shift in the excitement, I guess, for lack of a better term or interest around scalp care, because it wasn't happening when we were in our magazine days, like Pete with Scalp. It was a very French girl thing, I think, to think about your scalp.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

But now it's like every. It's one of the most Googled things that everyone's caring about it more. What do you make of it?

[D]

I think it's such a good move, and I think it goes along with the mindset shift that's happening, that hair care is more than just a quick fix of, oh, I can add shine, but I'll wash it off again tomorrow. And that's all that's possible. There's so much more that's possible, but you really have to think about it. Like, you think of your skin, of your taking care of it for today, but also for the hair that you want to have next month, next year, and the role that scalp plays in there. It's intuitive, but people are willing to invest in their hair more for the long term now. Yeah. And then we're starting to understand, you know, why does it even matter to take care of your scalp? What impact does it have on your hair? And we're realizing has a pretty significant impact. That's been the understanding of that has grown with people who have noticeable scalp issues. And so for them, they're constantly reminded their scalp is there. It's itchy, it's flaky, it's sending them signals. But we now know that even if your scalp is forgettable in the best of ways, as in it's not talking to you, your hair can still benefit from taking care of it. So it matters to everybody.

[C]

Yeah. And, you know, Jill and I first started talking about this. This issue during COVID because I remember there was an article in the Atlantic that everybody's hair was falling out. And, you know, it was. It was pretty scary, but they were. So they were talking about stats, and that's kind of, to us how this. This started, and we started reporting on it. So where are we at now? Because it's post Covid, everyone's back living their lives. Like, what do the stats look like now? How many people are dealing with, you know, hair falling? I know that you're keeping track of all of this for sure.

[D]

And it's a little bit shocking. I mean, this. The latest stats would say two out of three women are concerned with hair loss.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

So this conversation, much like the scalp conversation, has evolved so much in that it's always Been there. It just wasn't commonly talked about it.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Looking back at Covid time. So let's focus on the positive parts of it. And one of those is I think it really elevated the hair shedding, hair falling conversation. People felt more comfortable talking about it. And so now you see these conversations happening across wide age ranges, across people that you would look at and say, why is she talking about hair loss? She doesn't look like she has a problem. But people just became more familiar, comfortable, and in tune with it. And also recognizing there are many reasons why we experience with it. Experience it, but it's common.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think you made a good point at the event when you were saying, you know, your mom, grandma, what they did, they were like, well, this is our fate. They just wore wigs, hair pieces. Absolutely. That's an amazing option. We have lots of great options for that now, but I think it's just a new generation. They're like, there must be something we can do to have the hair that makes us feel our most confident.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I think that's a big mindset. Mindset shift as well.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

That's a good point.

[D]

Agree.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And it's also bringing in. Bringing the conversation to people that are much younger than I would have expected 10 years ago. But there is this, you know, what can I do to prevent it? I see it happening. I'm starting to see signs and this feeling of like, oh, I feel like I just lost a little bit of myself over there. As you see hairs falling that. Similar to the SPF conversation, people are wanting to engage in it and take a more of a preventative approach as much as once you see it, start to do something about it. And there are far more options today.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That don't seem like it's life altering or I have to make this major trade off between what I love doing and what I think I have to do. There's just far more possibilities. Thankfully.

[B]

Yeah. Thank God. Like I said, thank God for hair dye too, because back in the day, all they had was hats. I've said it before. Hats and wigs.

[A]

Sa. Today's episode is brought to you in part by Jones Road Beauty. I love Jones Road Beauty. Bobby Brown is such an inspiration. If you guys haven't listened to our episode that came out last year, please go back in our archives. She just is makeup artist with the most. She's been doing this for years. She knows what makes skin sing. No matter what your age is. If you have a lot of texture and you haven't tried the miracle bomb. You need to get into it. It comes in like bronzy shades, blushy shades. It's all about getting that glow. And it's a multitasker. You can use it as a highlighter, a bronzer, a blush, even a lip tint. She was putting it on without a mirror in front of us during our interview. And people just love this. It gives you this, your skin, but better look. It's no mus, no f. Perfect for lazy slash busy people like me. And they're doing it again because the latest launch is a shadow stick. I cannot wait to try these. They're creamy high pigment eyeshadow sticks designed for real life. So you just swipe it on. I love a stick. I blend it in with my fingers. There's no brush, no fallout, no fuss. And what I like to do is when I want a slightly more dramatic look, I'll just do like turn it so that there's like a sharper edge to it and I'll put a line along my lash line to give a bit more definition. Definition. I might do a line under on my lower lashes as well. I love that kind of versatility. And it comes in eight universal matte neutral shades. That's perfect. I'm not a big shimmer girly. You know, Bobby Brown is always going to do it right if you want to try it for yourselves. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multi functional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free shimmer face oil. Sound the alarm on their first purchase when they use Code Beauty at checkout. Head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code Beauty at checkout. After your purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that Breaking Beauty sent you.

[E]

Have you ever heard the saying, tell me what you eat and I will tell you who you are? I'm Katie Lee Beagle and I'm food obsessed. Tune into my podcast all on the Table and get to know celebrities, boldface names and industry insiders in an all new way as they share the ingredients that make their recipe for life.

[B]

I want to know it all, from

[E]

the favorite childhood birthday cake to the breakfast they eat every day. An engagement meal in Paris or a guilty pleasure fast food indulgence.

[B]

You can tell a lot about a

[E]

person by what's in their fridge. And hey, everybody's gotta eat. Make sure to tune in every Thursday and follow so we can devour every last morsel together or putting it all on the table.

[C]

And so what is the difference in plain terms between normal everyday shedding and genuine long term hair thinning? Like, how do we know when there's actually we're seeing a problem?

[D]

Okay, so bear with me. But we naturally lose hairs every day. This is just the way that our heads are built. And it's because of the natural hair growth cycle that we go through where you're actively growing hairs for anywhere between two to eight years. Then your hair goes through a transition phase before a resting phase, and then at the end of that resting phase, the strand that's sitting in your scalp just basically jumps out and then it all starts over again. So the number of strands jumping out on any given day can be anywhere from 50 to 150. It's a very normal amount. It can show up differently if you've got long hair versus short hair, dark hair versus light hair. Hairs that you are going to collect are going to look different person to person. But you should get to know what is my normal right now. When that normal starts to increase and you can't explain it because you've now gotten to longer lengths or you've gone from blonde to black and now it looks very different. But when that amount of hair that you collect on any given day starts to look more, your brush starts to get. People often notice it in their brush, in their drain. They might even see it on their pillow overnight. But really, brush and drain are the two biggest ones. If it starts to look like, oh, that, that hairball is bigger. That's what you typically see before you start to see, I have more visible scalp or my ponytail feels thinner. But once you start to see that, you know, okay, maybe there's something at play that's going beyond the normal 50 to 100 hairs I should be losing every day.

[B]

That's still a lot. 50 to 100 is. I don't think people would think it was that many.

[D]

It is a lot. Yeah. And so that, that means you should give yourself grace if you see some and say, okay, that's normal. But also if you imagine your head has about a hundred thousand hair strands on it anyway, okay, it's a small amount. And thankfully also nature has done this hair loss process. In a way. Those hundred to 150 hairs are coming from all over your head. They're not coming from any one spot. That would make it much more noticeable.

[B]

Right. What's the difference between breakage and shedding? Do you scientifically break that down?

[D]

We do. And it's important to break down. I Think the experience to someone is, I just saw my hair fall.

[B]

Right.

[D]

I don't know why. So it all ends up in the same hair that's on the floor. But scientifically, we think about it as breakage is a result of damage or extreme stress strain that you've put on your hair. The shedding, as we think about it, shedding from the root, there's a different cause there. And so the approach that we take to address shed that happens from breakage and shed that happens from the root are two different approaches. But honestly, if we put those together, we can have a really noticeable effect on just the number of hairs that you see falling around you.

[C]

Yeah, I know that hormones is a big factor when it comes to hair shedding. I had quite a bit of that happen after I child. And stress can be a big factor. Jill and I, we've talked about, like, some of your friends who have lost quite a bit of hair when they've gone through traumatic experiences. What I was surprised to learn was this idea that actually external stress can be contributing to hair shedding. So UV and pollution, the same kind of external stress that we experience on our face. So talking about free radicals, to me, this seemed like a new way of thinking in terms of a causal factor that contributes to hair shedding. So maybe you could elaborate on that.

[D]

So we asked people, what do you think are the biggest causes of hair falling? And they said, and top one's exactly what you mentioned, Carlene. Stress hormones, life stage age, genetics. They didn't mention what's happening on their scalp, and especially from external factors like free radicals. And not surprising because we've only recently come to understand what impact it does have, and it's meaningful. So scalp oxidative stress is what's emerging as this is a really common cause because we're all exposed to UV every day. Pollution can contribute to it, even the buildup of scalp oils. We all have that, and it ultimately leads to an excessive amount of hair that we're losing. So we're still going to lose our hair from the natural growth cycle and from changes that you mentioned can impact it. But it's this unnecessary addition which is arguably the most controllable cause of hair fall. And it's something we now know we can do something about that. So even if you do go through more hair falling with postpartum, more hair falling with a big stressful event, we can reduce the amount that you're seeing by taking out this external factor, the oxidative stress.

[C]

So what's happening, like, is It. Free radicals are impacting sort of the. The DNA or your microbiome or like, what's so.

[D]

Free radicals, you know, they're. They're quite destructive, and they attack structures. And so imagine this, your hair strand is sitting in a scalp pore, and imagine it tightly held around that hair at the root, but the free radicals attack the structure. And just imagine the scalp skin becoming really loose. And so the hold that it has on hair at the root is just opening up, opening up like a really nicely worn sweater. And you've got these.

[B]

It's stretched out. Yes, it's stretched out.

[C]

It's like I'm picturing it, like pore sagging on my face. That's happening with the follicles on my scalp.

[D]

That's exactly it. I mean, that's. That's the image it creates. And so that that poor strand.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Doesn't have anything to hold on to, so it loses its anchor to the scalp and it falls out too soon. Too many of them fall out.

[C]

Right.

[D]

And we realize we can basically tighten the hold that your scalp has on hair at the roots and keep it in place for as long as it should be there.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And the end result is having more hairs on your head at any one time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Very cool.

[C]

I mean, when I. Again, I go back to skincare. Right. So we've learned this as beauty editors, that free radicals, they impact your DNA. And so we need antioxidants to combat that. And what's always been drilled into my head from dermatologists is that vitamin C is the gold standard. So tell me why, with your collection? Because there is no vitamin C in here.

[D]

Correct.

[C]

What you've chosen to use instead, and why it makes sense for the scalp.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

So, yes, antioxidants are the way to go after oxidative stress. And not all antioxidants are created equally. So for this, what we have is a combination of three ingredients that creates this really powerful antioxidant package. We call it our provitamin complex with niacinamide. But paractoneolamine is the start here. And that's an ingredient that's known to work in the unique scalp environment where imagine it's warm, it's dark, there are a lot of oils that are present, more so that you're going to have on the rest of your body. So it still has really strong antioxidant activity there. And then we put that with pantene signature provitamin B5 or panthenol, which also has some inherent antioxidant activity. And then with niacinamide, you all know, skin barrier enhancing ingredient. And there was something very interesting that we found when we put these three together. The antioxidant activity of that trio seemed to just boost. And then this was something that we tested in the clinical studies to say it's really effective at reducing scalp oxidative stress, which then reduces shedding and increases. Increases the number of hairs that you have on your head.

[C]

Yeah. So there's a shampoo, a conditioner and a serum. And you know, I think a lot of people understand serums, again from face care. So very similar concept. And it has that same feel to it where it's not like an oil,

[A]

it's in a dropper.

[B]

Everyone, if you're listening and it looks like a very. It's in a glass bottle as well.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Very premium.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Pantene.

[C]

I will say, I do like that feel though. I will say because, you know, to use an oil, maybe some people like to do hair oiling, but it's definitely. It's not going to help you use it every day. Right. Because you don't necessarily want to wash every day. It might mess with your hairstyle. It's very specific. So I like that this one kind of gives you like an invisible film and it doesn't feel tacky or anything. That's what I noticed. Just trying it on my hand so far.

[D]

I'm glad you noticed that because that was. It's a really important point. The scalp oxidative stress or free radicals, we're exposed to them daily. Uv, again, scalp oil buildup, all of these things are happening daily. And so we needed something that can fit into a daily hair care routine without having to ask you to go to great lengths to change your routine.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So of course we have shampoo and conditioner. Use those on your wash days. And it has this clinically proven technology, but the scalp serum is what enables you to get the antioxidants regardless of your wash frequency. But to your point, people are nervous about putting something oily or greasy on their scalp because they think, well, I'm just gonna have to wash sooner. So I don't know. There's nervousness about it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So one, it had to be non greasy, leave you with a refreshed feeling, not at all any kind of dirty feeling. So this formula is really, it's quick drying, it's non greasy, it's for daily use. It takes maybe 30 seconds to apply it. You just want to spread it throughout your scalp. There's a Nice little tingling sensation with it, too.

[B]

Which cooling a bit.

[D]

Yes. Which is a good signal to say you've gotten it right at your roots, not all caught up in your hair, and you've spread it evenly so it's across your scalp. Because this isn't about spot treatment. It's about preventing the shedding from happening across your whole scalp.

[B]

Yeah. Last night we saw Abby demo it for us. We got her on the mic to do that, and it was like she was almost using the dropper to separate her hair into sections. Like, you could tell she had used it a lot because she had her own little method. Right. The Abby Young method of doing it. And it was almost like 5. Like a full dropper length could do. Like, she has very long hair, but she could do like a whole section. Like. Yes, you have like a bob. How much product are you putting in?

[D]

Same amount. Because this is all about your scalp and roots. It has nothing to do with the length.

[B]

So one full dropper does basically your whole head. Correct?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it actually absorbs faster than most skin care serums I've ever tried. I'm sure that's by design.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Foreign. Is brought to you in part by Blissey. What kind of pillowcase are you guys using at home? Is it cotton? Is it satin? Let me tell you why I switched to silk. Well, I would wake up with those, you know, those creases, the pillow creases that you get when you're sleeping, the frizzy hair, all of that. And the thing about silk is that it's natural, it's cooling, and it's gentler on skin and hair than satin. Satin or any other fabrics you might be using. It helps to reduce frizz and breakage while you're sleeping for your hair. And it gives you healthier looking skin in weeks by reducing the look of fine lines, wrinkles, those sleep creases we talked about. And it even helps to prevent breakouts. With Blissey, they use the highest quality of silk. It's 22 mom or M O, M, M E. That's a 6A grade 100. Pure mulberry silk. And the benefits of silk, like we naturally cooling, also breathable, hydrating, and hypoallergenic. So that's going to help with skin conundrums as well. And with Blissey, the material has been dermatologist tested and recommended as well. Now, this is luxury, but also these pillowcases are fully machine washable, which I appreciate. You know, I'm lazy slash busy. I'm not going to be out there hand washing my pillowcases and people are just loving Blissey. Over 3 million have been sold. It's been featured in Vogue, Oprah Daily, Good Morning America. It's won a bunch of awards. And if you want to try it for yourself because you're a listener, Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free plus an additional 30% off when you [e-mail] breaking that's bl I s s y.com breaking and use code breaking to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you.

[B]

Medicate is one of our show partners this week. Medicate is a clinically proven British skincare brand known for age defying results. I have so many of their products in personal routine. Everything from the liquid peptide serum to the crystal retinol. Love both of those. And all of Medicaid's products undergo clinical testing and have amazing before and after results. And everything is dermatologists recommended. And that's why I'm excited to share with you the latest secret from Medicaid. And this one is all about getting glass skin. And it's Medicaid's new niacinamide peptide serum and it's powered by 10% niacinamide and this multi active formula is clinically proven to deliver visibly clearer smoother skin with pore reduction in seven days. Why I personally like the Medicaid niacinamide peptide serum is I find that it's overall yes it's brightening but it also has zinc in there which helps with reducing oil production and I really appreciate that. Any little acne scars or acne marks that I have, it's really brightening on those as well. So yes, it's gently exfoliating, yes it's brightening but it also just makes my skin look so much clearer which I really appreciate. So if you want to check it out for yourself, you can visit Medicaid US that's M E D I K and the number 8 US to discover more use code breaking 20 to save 20 off your order. Once again, that's Medicaid US use code breaking 20 to try out the niacinamide peptides serum. We'll link to this offer in our show notes and on our website. Now back to the show.

[C]

Now the other thing that was overheard was that the oils on your scalp oxidize as well. So what does that mean? Like is our, our our scalp oils becoming rancid or like it what is happening and is it harmful to our scalp?

[D]

So it's not A pleasant thought. But you know, just like your oils, your cooking oils can turn.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Or go rancid. So can your scalp oils.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So some people, especially people who have of hyper oil production on their scalp, they'll talk about an odor, like an off odor, which is often a sign that their oils are oxidizing. But it just, it can break down into more irritating components like causing reactive oxygen species and a whole chain of reactions that then lead to more stress on your. Oxidative stress on your spine.

[C]

Right. So honestly, the other thing that I'm hearing through this conversation is should we be washing our hair more often? Because again, I'm thinking about it like my face, you know, what a dermatologist would say about the pollution, the everyday micro pollution that your face is accumulating. And it's making me wonder that should we be washing our hair more often to remove that layer of oils and just, and the micro pollution itself.

[D]

And there has been published research to show that the more often that you wash your, that you wash, the better it is for your scalp.

[C]

So I want to ask you, though, we had talked about washing your hair more often if you can, you know, so whatever that means for you. But we often do notice all that hair in the drain. So is that mechanically we're pulling it out or could that be backfiring on us, washing our hair more often? Or is that a myth?

[D]

This is a great question because it causes a lot of panic for people when they go in the shower and maybe they're rinsing the conditioner and see hairs coming out into their hands. And so there's a belief among people that conditioner can lead to hair fall.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And it's not. So it makes perfect sense why they would see that or believe that because that's when they're feeling a lot of hairs coming out of their head.

[B]

Right.

[D]

But in fact what happens is as the hairs are being jumping out of the scalp or falling out of the scalp, some of them fall directly to the floor. But a lot of them just get caught up in the mass of hair that you have. See, the more textured hair, your longer it is, the more spaces it has to get caught up. So it's only when you get that detangling effect of a conditioner are you releasing all of it from the mass of your hair, even if it left your scalp a day or two ago.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[D]

So that's why you tend to see the hair ball in the drain in your hands when you're washing. But it doesn't mean that washing is causing hair loss? It just means. And that's the detangling effect that's letting it fully release from your mass of hair.

[C]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, got it.

[B]

It.

[C]

Now what about what we should avoid in shampoos and conditioners? And again, this could be a myth. Are sulfates and silicones contributors?

[D]

No. At least from what our research would say, I do not believe that they're contributing. I'll tell you a few studies. This one goes back to 1992, where there was the belief that silicones could be clogging your hair follicle and interfering with the growth cycle and causing more hair to fall. And there was a clinical study done over 48 weeks, so nearly a year to follow. People who use silicone containing products, and this was in the ages of really large silicone particles that if anything's going to clog a follicle, it would be that versus people who used products without silicone for an entire year. And what they saw was there was no difference. Those products, the silicone did not clog a follicle and interfere with hair growth. Number two, there are plenty of studies to show. You were asking about shed that comes from breakage. Silicones are so effective, especially if you have damaged hair, for reducing the amount of shed that happens from breakage. So they're a big help. Sulfates. There's a lot of fear out there that, oh, they might be too harsh. They're contributing to hairs falling. And that's why a lot of people, when they see more hair fall, they'll often switch to a different shampoo or conditioner, thinking, that's what I need to do.

[B]

Right.

[D]

But we had in our clinical studies two of them, sulfate containing shampoos, because the sulfates work with the chemistry in the products to help deliver the antioxidants to your scalp. So they're playing an active role, not just in cleansing, but in delivering the antioxidants. And we measured in these clinical studies, what's the effect that it's having on the scalp condition. So we saw that the scalp barrier improved, the hydration of the scalp improved, which goes against the fear that people have that sulfates are going to be harsh on the scalp. So we feel quite confident from those results to say, no, these sulfate containing shampoos with antioxidants is doing good for your scalp. It's doing good to help hair emerge healthier and doing good to help your hair stay rooted in your scalp for longer.

[C]

Okay, let me ask you this. When you're doing your testing we know you're doing a lot of it. You're in some instances, maybe not with this line, but you might be looking at benchmarks from other brands, like luxury brands or salon brands. Do you guys do that? Can you say we do.

[D]

Test against what options do people have out there, Whether it's a product or if it's some kind of behavior that they think would make a difference or even things like. Would onion juice make a difference?

[B]

Onion water.

[C]

Onion water.

[B]

Yes, I remember that. TikTok tweets. We didn't actually use that one, but

[D]

I know that came up.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Well, my question is, do you think that it's ever worth it to spend over $50 on a shampoo? Again, we know that you've been working at a drugstore brand for many years, but have you done that sort of test where you can say, okay, well, that's just a different ingredient that, you know, we wouldn't be able to incorporate, but they can. And so we just have our audience and they have theirs. Or is it a case where you're like, like, I don't understand the price difference. It's the packaging. I don't know. You tell me.

[D]

So I say this as a scientist. We've done some testing of products, let's say repairing products in general of what we might offer for $10, $12 from Pantene versus what someone might pay $60 for. And with objective test, looking at the performance that you get, we don't see that you get more by paying more. My scientific view, and I take the. We nerd out on this, I take that with the utmost of compliment.

[C]

And we mean it that way.

[B]

Yeah,

[D]

we see. It just takes science. And there's a lot of science that's behind this ten dollar. A ten dollar conditioner, at least that comes from us. I can only speak for what we put out there or what's coming with the abundant and strong.

[B]

Very cool. Okay, so save your money, everyone. That's what I'm gathering. It's something that Abby brought up last night because she's genetically blessed with her hair.

[A]

Like, she's.

[B]

She's taking her hair to the next level with the Abby Young method. We can all agree it looks incredible. It's like shiny, glossy, like, like mermaid beautiful hair, if you're not familiar. But she talked about something last night. Why she likes to use a product like this, even though she has a lot of hair. Is seasonal shed.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

So talk us, talk to us about that.

[D]

Okay. So I will say with Abby, she does have amazing Hair and she's genetically blessed. But she also went through, yes, a transformation because she had been doing a lot to her hair, not caring for it well, and she spent, what is it, a year longer transforming her hair and all through her routine. And so while she's blessed, it's really what she, the care that she puts into it that explains why, yes, her hair is amazing. Seasonal hair loss, she mentioned that and that was one of the things that we noticed in the clinical study is the antioxidant approach basically flattens the seasonal hair loss curve. So this is a little known hair loss fact. So we shed more hair in the fall and little peak in the spring too. It's just part of that natural hair growth cycle. So you may have noticed more hair in the shower, more hair falling around you in these October, November months. It's very natural. We don't necessarily know why people have theories much like you are.

[C]

No, I'm just like, what's going on? Does your hair, hair go mercury retrograde? What is happening?

[B]

I think it's personally, my personal opinion is that our, our body is looking to conserve energy and the hair is the first thing to go, which is why when my friends had those health challenges, their body needed to reserve the energy to heal other things. And I think that is what's happening. My, my very unscientific opinion, everyone.

[D]

It could be, it could be because in the summer we just saw a lot of oxidative stress that built up and we don't know exactly why, but it's real. And what we did very intentionally with the clinical studies was to time it so that we could cover that seasonal hair loss phase. That's a very important factor with hair studies, by the way, because it can complicate the results if you don't account for it. Anyway, so we timed the research through this phase to see what happens to seasonal hair loss loss. And we saw while those that were on the placebo, they had that seasonal hair loss spike, those that were treating oxidative stress with the antioxidants that's now in this collection. They kept all of that hair, for the most part on their head.

[B]

Got it?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Well, that's impressive. But let's talk about, of the 500 people for all ethnicities, did you notice a difference in the impact of, of this technology on one sort of hair type over the other?

[D]

We haven't seen much that's hair type dependent about this. And we have included across the clinical studies and that six week study that I mentioned, the full range of hair types, hair routines. And because it's so scalp and root focused, it seems to be universal action, which is great. And then knowing that your hair type is so much going to determine your hair routine, how often you wash or not. That's where the flexibility of getting it from the serum and from your wash routine is important, so that you figure out what works in your routine. And also you can carry on with. If you're someone who oils your hair, use different types of products to suit your hair texture. Keep doing that. If you found what works for you, keep doing that. This is just additive to that routine. But the benefit is there, regardless of your hair type.

[B]

I'm interested from a research standpoint, what is the next gen of hair science are you using? AI, give us a peek behind the curtain. If we were to go and put our lab coats on, for sure.

[D]

There's a lot more to learn. Every time we learn something, it opens up a new question.

[B]

Yeah. So there's so true.

[D]

There's a lot more to learn.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

With an AI is a part of how fast can we learn things. And I mean, I'll give you an example. In this clinical research, one of the tools that we used was a phototrichogram. And this is about counting the number of hairs that are on your head. And then there was another tool to count the hairs that had fallen off your head. At first, we started this research years ago. We're literally manually counting. But as this work progressed, AI got us to the point where we were able to one, count quickly, but two, separate out which hairs had fallen because they'd broken and which hairs had fallen because they had fallen from the root. And so being able to separate that out then lets us tailor more solutions for one versus the other.

[B]

Incredible.

[D]

And bring it all together. So thank you, AI for that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's impressive.

[B]

Is this the tool that you experimented on Carlene and I with last night? You took a picture of our scalp. Was that the tool?

[D]

That's. Yes.

[B]

It's like a high res camera for your root area, everyone. And you could literally see that I had like three hairs growing out of one follicle. And you can measure the density.

[C]

That's supposed to be a good thing, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. Like, it was wild and you could tell everybody was. You were able to quantify the density.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Of everybody's scalp photo.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Which was so cool.

[D]

Your follicles are working hard for you too.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Thank goodness for that. Imagine. Imagine after I get the abundant and strong on my. On my Head. Wow.

[C]

Honestly, I was really impressed because you did my scalp and my results were so much better.

[B]

They were great.

[C]

Two years ago when I had it. Was it two years ago or a year ago?

[B]

I think it was about a year ago.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. And I just found it was so much better than the last time I had it done. So I'm going to go ahead and say one thing. I'm not using that crazy blow dryer. That was so hot. The two in one. Yeah, the brush.

[A]

The.

[C]

The brush. And it was like so hot on my scalp. I think that was definitely a contributing factor. I've also been on HRT for three months, so I don't know if that helps.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I think so.

[C]

For sure. But anyway, either way, yeah, I'm happy.

[B]

It was.

[D]

It was.

[B]

Yeah. Your hair was looking real good under the microscope.

[A]

Real strong, real abundant, real strong.

[B]

Do you guys want to see these photos on Instagram? Should we post them?

[A]

Yes, please.

[B]

With our density. So we were right. You nerding out.

[C]

And then our final question for you is if you have single most important piece of advice for anyone navigating this,

[A]

because it can be emotional, this experience

[C]

as well, and if, you know, if there's any, like community or support groups or anything you would like to leave

[D]

our listeners with, it's a great question. It. It is very emotional. And I think one of the most important things to remember is because if you are noticing hair shed, you're in the majority. I mean, two out of three women are concerned with this. So if you're not noticing, you're lucky, but that is the minority of women. So one, I think people are talking so much more about this and you should feel comfortable talking about it because it is so common.

[B]

Right.

[D]

If you're really concerned, seek help from a dermatologist because they can run a whole battery of tests to see if there are underlying issues that should be addressed. But you can also just start with simple solutions and see does this make a difference? Is this already helping get me to the point where I want to be with my hair?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Jenny Thomas. It's been a delight. We're so excited to try this out in our own showers and in our own vanities. And for everybody that's wondering, the Pantene Abundant and Strong collection is available now for purchase on Amazon in your drugstores. And we will link to it in our show notes as well. So thank you once again.

[D]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm a longtime listener. It is such a thrill to be here on the couch with you.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[C]

Thanks for listening. You can find details on every product mentioned in today's episode, along with our exclusive promo codes on our blog@breaking beautypodcast.com

[B]

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[A]

single thing and get social with us.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[D]

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