← Breaking the Rules: A Clinician's Guide to Treating OCD
Breaking the Rules: A Clinician's Guide to Treating OCD
How clinicians can provide better OCD treatment (from someone with OCD)
00:35:35
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- [00:04]
A
This is Breaking the Rules, a show for mental health professionals designed to help you build confidence in treating obsessive compulsive disorder. I'm Dr. Celine Galgetz and I'm a clinical psychologist who works extensively with OCD.
- [00:17]
B
And I'm Dr. Victoria Miller, but you can call me Tori. And I'm a clinical psychologist who works with young people, including those with ocd. Through our shared professional experience, we've found that effective treatment of OCD requires commitment, creativity and the recognition that things can sometimes get a little messy.
- [00:34]
A
They sure can. We want to empower clinicians to be able to work with their patients in new ways to treat OCD with confidence. We are continuing our thrilling discussion today with Chrissy Hodges who is an advocate and peer support specialist for the treatment of ocd. Chrissy started out just like any other individual with OCD who wanted to make a difference, create awareness and find a community to help heal heal. From her own experience with OCD, she began OCD advocacy in 2012, starting as a podcast host and doing public speaking on mental health. Through the years, Chrissy has expanded to many different platforms and projects and continues to push for more awareness, more opportunities to connect the community and the elimination of stigma around ocd. Specifically, Chrissy is the founder of Treatment for OCD Consulting and is a certified peer support specialist through the State of Colorado. She was also a co founder of OCD Peers, a group based peer support practice and she co founded Peer Recovery Services which is a government contract that hires, trains and supervises certified peer support specialists in the Colorado State Mental Health Institutes. Chrissy has also documented her experiences in her book Pure ocd, the Invisible side of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. She is also the founder and executive director of the 501C non profit OCD Game Changers.
- [01:58]
B
In part two of this episode, we continue our discussion with Chrissie by exploring her perspective on what clinicians should know about what it's like to be a consumer of services. But also she shares her perspective on what we clinicians can and should be doing better. Her candidness is extremely refreshing. Let's get started. Can you unpack that a little bit more? Because I guess what I'm curious about is sort of the mechanics of what happens for someone when they meet someone else with OCD or they hear someone else talking about having the same themes. What is it do you think that happens for them that helps their shame lower and then what is it that helps with their healing and their recovery process?
- [02:43]
C
Do you think so? As you know Treating people with ocd. I mean, no matter what the theme is, because it's ego dystonic and because you sit there and go, I know that this isn't what I want or am or whatever else, but I can't stop thinking about it. There is this identity crisis. There is this feeling of I have this second self, or there's something about me, like I was explaining earlier, that I'm hiding from other people. I have this lack of connection. If people only knew, which is why we see confession so much. You know, if they knew and they could accept me for this, which we know makes things wor. So this isolation in this. I need to keep this all in. Or else. I hear clients, peer support clients, by the way. I don't do therapy. I just do peer support. But, like, I hear clients all the time saying, I need to tell my fiance what goes on in my head. So they have a choice whether they want to be with me. And I'm like, what?
- [03:43]
A
Yeah, that's such a common one. And then they'll come back to like. They'll come back to session and be like, but I left this tiny detail out last time, so I need to tell you this so you can find me as a client, because you're going to think I'm the most awful person in the world.
- [03:57]
C
What that does is it reinforces this idea that there is something different about you. There's something inside of you that's different, even though you can know. I could list my values and morals out right here, but if I have all this doubt over here, I need to let these people know so they have a choice. But it has nothing to do with a second identity. And this is the hardest thing, I think, is that to communicate to people, you don't have a different identity, but. But OCD makes you feel like you do. And there's nothing we can do to squash that other than meeting other people that say, oh my gosh, I feel the same way. And then all of a sudden you're looking at this person and going, if I saw you walking down the road, I would not think that you're a monster. I would not think that you're a horrible person. I would just think that you're a normal functioning. And I'd probably be jealous of you because you don't live with what I have. I live. Right. And so all of a sudden it brings this idea to your head, and it also highlights to you that you are able to have empathy for other people that have the theme, but you're having trouble having empathy for yourself with the theme. And so when you practice that more and more and more and you're having empathy and you're showing up and supporting people like. Cause I run a ton of groups. But when you're supporting someone else and you're sitting there and going, man, but I was thinking this the other day and thought, I don't deserve compassion, all of a sudden, the practice of compassion turns into self compassion. And so here we are, like, creating this community of people. When you feel connection and when you feel understood, you just naturally start to develop self esteem. And I think that that's what's missing for those of us with ocd, especially those of us that live for so long with it undiagnosed, is that we just got so completely torn down because we isolated and not talking about what's really going on, that we don't even know where to go to start building self esteem. And I say the best thing to do is to meet other people that have ocd. When you see yourselves in them, that gives you hope that there's hope for you, because you were already having hope for these people.
- [06:07]
A
And holding hope for your own self is probably one of the hardest things to do. Like you described, I think, vital examples, you know, empathy, compassion, to really then internalize that for your own self in order to maintain that healing process. Because as you mentioned before and you described, OCD absolutely will latch onto that and light it on fire so it can keep its existence going, and it'll up the ante every time someone tries to fight back as well, which can be really, really hard to keep fighting against. So, yeah, that sounds really, really awesome.
- [06:44]
C
I think your defenses come down to. I mean, we tend to want to. I mean, I know you'll probably heard this, but everybody will say, well, my groin is different. My groinal response is different than everybody else. And so when you really start hearing the same language, the same things over and over and over, all of a sudden our defenses aren't as powerful against ocd. So I'm gonna sit here and say, well, my groin ill is different. And that's what keeps me stuck here. But when you're introduced to a group and you hear 10 people say, my gr, all of a sudden you're like, wait, what? What? And so then when that pops up for you again, all of a sudden, you know, John Doe, his face is coming into your head, or Anne or whoever else, all these other people that are saying that, and you go, I wonder what they would do in this situation. And so now you don't feel as alone. Now you've got like this army of people that's helping you navigate this trigger when you didn't before. Because it just takes you down that rabbit hole of being and feeling so real.
- [07:43]
B
What does your peer support work look like?
- [07:45]
C
So I started doing peer support in 2015. I originally started out wanting to just talk to people and help them because I was getting a lot of inquiries from YouTube. Quickly realized I was out of my realm. Because you just don't mess around with mental health unless you have training and supervision. Like you just don't. You have a responsibility of like making sure that you are protecting the person and you're protecting yourself. And so I actually luckily had a colleague that said, hey, have you ever looked into peer support? So I went and worked for a company and I highly recommend this for people if they are wanting to pursue peer support, even just for ocd. Go work in the system for a couple years so you can understand what the system is like. You can understand supervision, understand working on a multidisciplinary team. You understand what people go through when they're in the system. So I worked in at a drop in center as a peer support. I worked in the community, I worked in the state institution. And so there is where I really, really got the crucial experience of all different types of disorders and also got a feel of what my role is as a peer. So I worked on a trauma informed care team there and on one of the multidisciplinary teams. So I was working with patients in the most acute states in the state of Colorado. And so the best job I've ever had, I loved it. And then I transitioned out of that in 2017. I started to see a need for peer support through my YouTube channel because people were contacting me, wanting support and wanting referrals for actual therapists that know what they're doing. And so I kind of designed this business of like, I can provide peer support and then I can also like create this bank of therapists that people can come to me and I can give them a customized list that I have vetted myself. And so I started that like kind of slowly. And then I've done one on one peer support at this point for almost seven years. And then it evolved into groups. And now I've evolved into an online private community for people if they kind of like Natasha, even though it's private, you can only access it by going through one of my groups or doing peer support with me kind of as an assessment tool, but I will probably open that up later and you can get a referral from a therapist to get into the community. But I really love the one on one peer support. But a lot of it is just kind of like your basic psycho education. I'm getting a little bit tired of that over and over and over. I really find so much value and connection. And this is what I do with OCD Game Changers too. So OCD Game Changers is my nonprofit. So we also travel internationally doing events all over the world, hoping to come to Australia at some point. And we connect people in the community one on one. Like people get to meet other people and we share lived experience. So everything about my life moving forward is connecting people to people so they know that they're not alone. That is where it's at for me.
- [10:43]
B
Years ago now when I worked for the public mental health services here in Melbourne. I was working in the youth psychosis area at the time and I developed a parent support group, a sort of six week program that parents could cycle through. And I remember reaching out to the peer support worker. There was like one like the whole in the southeast region. And I reached out to her. I'm being totally honest here. I honestly didn't see a lot of value in it at the time. I was early in my career and I thought clinicians knew better. But I reached out to her. I think it was probably someone who recommended that maybe there'd be a nice kind of component. So I reached out to her thinking that she could come along to one of the evenings and have a little chat. Incredibly patronizing and bless her. She was like, no, I'm going to run this with you. And I was like, look, you know, it's all right, I got this. And she's like, no, I'm going to run this with you and I'm going to bring the snacks and I'm going to do all the things right. I can't believe how naive I was about the role of peer support. Honestly, I think I provided some good information to the parents about what their kids were going through, what the treatment looks like, what we're doing behind those closed doors. Some of the sort of the psycho education about psychosis and intervention. But I tell you what, the things that the parents got out of that was what she was able to share as a parent of a young person with a mental illness. But also the conversations that she was able to get going through her lived experience between the parents. And I will never forget that experience. We ran it for Several years it was together and I learned so much from her. And I think I start, I learned that I had to listen more, I had to be more open minded. I had to put myself in the perspective of not just my client, which I think I'd actually, I'd not done a bad job at doing, but not the perspective of the family, of the parents. I had to not be so clinician and sort of psychiatrically centered in my work. And I think my work got a lot, lot better from there. And I'm really grateful to her and peer support clinicians like yourself because I think it's outstanding. Look, I don't know what it's like at the moment in terms of perceptions of peer support work. I'm certainly very curious about what your experience has been, but I think we need more of it.
- [13:04]
C
We do. I mean, if I can be fully transparent, peer support specialists are clinicians in a way. You meet some and they're passionate and they're so excited about the work and they do really, really well. And then you meet others and it's just like they stop. They're not passionate and they're very egocentric. Like they're just all about ego. And so I guess what I'm trying to say is if you have had a bad experience with peer support, don't give up on it. It's a new field, it's up and coming. And I think that for a while, very much like mental health, people didn't want to stand up and be proud of being a peer because it wasn't a well respected job. We could say that it was, but it wasn't in the community. And in fact it's still not 100% respected. When you get people like myself, and I'm certain not blowing myself up, but I'm also not afraid to stand up to higher ups and clinicians and things like that because I understand how valuable our voice is. You know, when you get people like me in the position, I'm going to force you to understand how beneficial peer support is. And I'm not going to force you based on like telling you. I'm going to force you by showing you. And those are the peers that we're looking for. We're looking for people that are passionate about something that may have helped them or, or they want to give back. And also very professional in how they present themselves at work. You know, there's been a turn in kind of like how we're looking at mental health. So many people have mental health struggles. We want to Normalize this. So we want to get people in these positions that are reflective of every single person that has mental health issues. And so we certainly kind of want to come away from this like, woe is me. I hope I'm coming across in the way that I need to come across.
- [14:53]
B
I think so. I'm feeling very inspired, so I think it's fine.
- [14:56]
A
I think you are.
- [14:57]
C
Yeah. We want it to be more of like, look, y', all, like recovery can be this, this and this. It's not gonna be what Chrissy has. It's not necessarily gonna be what this person has. But what can your recovery look like and who can we put in there that can walk alongside of you? So you can advocate for that, which means shared decision making, which means strength based, person centered trauma, inform care, and you demanding it, and you demanding that your life doesn't have to be what the prescription is that is put in front of you. So that's what we're looking for. And that's what I look for in like peer support moving forward. So I actually own the government contract that I worked under. It came up for bid here a couple years after I quit it. And so another peer of mine got together and we put together a bid and so we won the bid. So we've had it now for like six, seven years. So now we put peers in the state institutions and so we supervise and mentor them. And so it has been awesome to be able to kind of be able to hand pick and mentor people in the way that we know peers are going to be successful in those state institutions.
- [16:10]
B
What do you think clinicians need to do better? What do we need to know?
- [16:14]
C
I'll be honest about ocd is that people need to get out of their dogmatic thinking. Like OCD is not just we have behavioral issues and you need to do this ERP and you're going to get better. And if you don't, it's your fault. That is not what it is. And I think what I'm seeing right now in the community is that you know, which is normal when you have change. So I'm not surprised. But you're getting like all these different modalities crashing into each other. And you also have a bunch of egos crashing into each other, which is not making things better. But I do think there's a big change coming up in the OCD community where we're starting to look at trauma, we're starting to look at childhood experiences finally. I just don't think it is cool for people to Think I could be walking down the street and then get struck by the I am a pedophile lightning bolt. And that came from nowhere. Like, I just think that. I'm not saying there's a solution and I'm not saying there's research behind it, but why are we not collecting data? Why are we not collecting data on like our family styles, our attachment styles, all of the annoying things we hear about put to music on Instagram, who cares? Like, why are we not collecting data so we can start seeing some of these patterns? Because it's not enough for us to say, go to ERP and you get better. And if you don't, I'm sorry, you're part of the 31% that don't and do it and be more committed. That's just not acceptable anymore.
- [17:42]
A
It's so refreshing to hear you say that because I think to our. And I have subscribed and a lot of other clinicians that we work with as well have subscribed to that for a little while now, in a sense that it's not uni dimensional. There are so many parts to ocd and we often think about it as form and function. Right. So you can see what it looks like, but what's the function of ocd? And let's explore that a little bit and let's have a look at what's driving it, what the purpose of it is, what's it linked to, what's its history, what's the narrative of OCD here? And in order to do that, you do have to look at attachment styles. You do have to look at early experiences and family narratives. You know, you talked about your family narrative, which is what OCD latched onto. If you don't know that, how are you going to effectively treat ocd? You might have symptom reduction, but you then have someone who's just going to get re triggered and re triggered and relapse and relapse and relapse. You're going to have really high relapse rates. So it's really refreshing to hear you say that. But you're right, like oftentimes, because I worked in a hospital in my early career and we had an OCD inpatient program and given there were limitations, right, because we were working within a group to treat a lot of people at the same time, and groups are fairly effective, there is data behind that. But the thing that a lot of us as clinicians found frustrating was we didn't get to explore any of that stuff because we were limited by the model that we were working in just by way of how our mental health system is set up. It's through no fault of anyone's at all.
- [19:18]
B
Except maybe the government's.
- [19:19]
A
Except maybe the government's.
- [19:20]
B
Yes.
- [19:22]
C
Like, yes.
- [19:24]
A
And so we just felt this frustration and we did a lot of the erp, which is also really great. But we felt limited in some instances. In a lot of instances, actually. And so we would then say to our. The people coming in, when you go and see your individual clinician outside of this program, because it was only for a few weeks, it would be good to follow up on those things. And that's the stuff that you can. Because we're noticing this pattern here. So it's not always about erp. Like, Tori and I often talk about this thing of when we supervise other clinicians and we supervise our team. They're like, but are you sure I can veer off the manual? Are you sure we like, but we're not doing erp. And it's like, is. It's okay. That's okay. You sometimes have to sidestep. Hold it in mind. That's your anchor. Right? Like you always, in a sense. But I say to them, I'm like, if your client has experienced trauma and they're coming to you and they're saying, I'm experiencing this trauma trigger and it's making me repent 10 times in my mind, or it's making me do a emotion check or a check of physical sensations, or it's making me do all these other compulsions that might be coming up. Do you not think there's a link there? Right. And if you're exploring that trauma trigger and you're talking about leaning into it and sitting with that discomfort and then trying to notice what the compulsions are and then trying to resist those so they can stay in the moment and actually deal with the trauma trigger, do you not think that in itself is erp because you've got your exposure, but you also have your response prevention. But then you're targeting the actual thing that's driving OCD here at the same time. And they're like, oh, okay, okay. And so we constantly have to provide this reassurance to be like, it's okay to veer off that manualized black and white approach, but you can hold it in mind, you know what you need to do. The principles are there, but this is also really relevant.
- [21:27]
C
I also think, though, exactly what you're saying is that if we're looking at this as a structured ERP component, this has Been my pet peeve for years, and luckily, I don't really hear this anymore. I think that people have screened this to the rooftops. But, like, we've got to stop saying the themes don't matter. We've got to stop implying that pedophilia theme is the same as contamination. I'm sorry. Like, it's not. And I have emetophobia and have sexual intrusive thoughts. I know they're not the same. I know they feel different. I know the shame is vastly different. And so, you know, we're looking at, like, a 30% rate of people that are not getting better by ERP. How many of those 30% are being told, well, your theme is the same as whether or not you got AIDS from a doorknob. I'm sorry. Like, AIDS from a doorknob is hard, but it certainly isn't. I'm gonna wake up every day worrying, I'm a pedophile. The end. Like taboo, intrusive thoughts are different. The degree of shame that they bring, the silence, the isolation, and then the shame, even after effective treatment that we're dealing with with them. I can't believe for so long people would, like, dig their heels in and just say, everything is the same. Now, I understand that from a clinical perspective, I do. We want to normalize the fact that this is just a theme and that the therapy can work no matter what. But when you're telling someone that who's having intrusive thoughts about their children and being like, well, all you gotta do is just say, maybe I'll get up and molest my child. No, we're not gonna do that. We should not be doing that now. We're gonna need even more trauma therapy afterwards, because that was the way to get better.
- [23:06]
A
Makes it challenging, doesn't it?
- [23:07]
C
I do wish that people would just be more fluid when it comes to OCD treatment. And I appreciate so much the behavioralists that have come through, including my therapist, Dr. Steven Phillipson, who made these huge strides. But now it's time. Where can we be more flexible? Where can we look at these people that we're leaving out? It's like I always tell people, you go to the doctor and you treat the symptoms of heart disease before you treat why you have heart disease. Like, you gotta treat the symptoms first. So, yay, erp. But, like, why now? Why do we have it? And why do I keep relapsing when the same thing's happening? So where do we go next? What do we do? Is that the responsibility of the OCD therapist. That's the new horizon of treatment.
- [23:54]
A
Hey, Tori.
- [23:55]
B
Hi, Celine.
- [23:56]
A
Did you know that we run our own courses here at Melbourne Wellbeing Group?
- [24:00]
B
I did know that. In fact, it's one of my favourite things we do here because it's a great way to help psychologists and other clinicians learn more about ocd, which means.
- [24:09]
A
We get to help more people. So if you're a clinician who works in mental health and you're interested in learning from us, then get in touch.
- [24:18]
B
For more information, head to www.melbournewellbeinggroup.comau and click on the webinars and Books tab.
- [24:26]
A
Alrighty, back to the show. Would you be able to elaborate a little bit more on your ideas on that? Because I think from a, you know, this idea of when our supervisees come to us, they're like, okay, so I've got this theme. What do I do with this? This? And There are nuances 100%, but we always first provide a little bit of reassurance. Going, well, ERP is still effective, but you have to be mindful of these things. So that's the approach that we take. Would you agree with that, Tori?
- [24:57]
B
Yeah, I would. Especially for a developing psychologist who might be feeling particularly anxious about the topic, about the fact that there's a taboo nature. So I try to sort of simplify. And just like you were saying before, like, erp, the application of it is actually still the same. But you're right, there is a point, Chrissy, level up. And it goes beyond just writing an exposure menu or a hierarchy. And there is a point at which we do have to level up and actually hear clients who have, say, pedophilic intrusive thoughts saying, it's just not the same as if I just didn't want to touch that doorknob. It's just not the same. What would you say to clinicians who wanted to then go that little bit further? What would they do? What would the experience be like? What kind of advice could you give them?
- [25:45]
C
I mean, I would say that I just graduated my master's last summer and my capstone project was on Shame with taboo intrusive thoughts. And I mean, I think especially for taboo, assessing the level of shame that's actually getting in the way of possible treatment. Because there's so many levels where shame hits people with taboo intrusive thoughts. Whether it's just like the shame of having the thoughts in general, the first time they had the thought, did I cause the thoughts, Did I watch pornography? And the thoughts came on so it's my fault. And then the shame of what I'm gonna have to do. You know, people resist doing treatment in ERP because we're saying things like, the themes don't matter. This is what you're gonna have to do to get better. I can't tell you how many people I've met with that are like, I have PSD and, and I'm a parent and I'm not doing treatment because I. I'm gonna have to say, maybe, maybe not. I'm a pedophile. So when we're putting that kind of language out there, when we're putting out the expectations of what ERP is, instead of being custom tailored to what the person's actual compulsions are, this is one of the most frustrating parts of my job is like having to undo what someone has heard or what they have done with a therapist, which is, I'm gonna go in, you know, I have pedophilia theme. Okay, I want you to go and sit at a playground and rate kids being sexy. Like, what does a person, you know, normally go to a playground or whatever instead of like, assessing? And this kind of goes back to what we wish that therapists would do is like, when I try to explain to people what ERP is from a psycho educational perspective, I don't do ERP with people. But like, this is just re triggering yourself in a safe environment so you can experience it while being in control. Then it's kind of like, oh, well, that wouldn't be so scary. But I think what we have is we have clinicians that are coming in and they're thinking, I'm just gonna say this out loud. I probably shouldn't, but I'm going to anyway. But, like, I'm part of a Facebook group and there's clinicians in there. And one of the things that bothers me the most is when people go on there and they're like, oh my God, look at this amazing exposure. I can't wait see to. To trigger my clients. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad that you're taking pleasure in the fact that, like, we feel like we're gonna die when we're triggered. But, like, I'm so glad you think this is funny on a Saturday night and you can't wait to meet with your client on Monday. I get so upset about that because, like, again, it's taking away from that one on one curated ERP experience. Which is when I'm so grateful for Philipson. He is a pure behavioralist. Like, for real. But like he came in and genuinely wanted to know, okay, tell me all the things that's going on. And we started with, what are you avoiding? Okay, tomorrow, this is your exposure. You're going to the tennis courts. And I'm like, no, it sounds almost.
- [28:35]
B
A little bit like the acceptance commitment model, which is, where has your life been derailed? Let's get your life back on track. Rather than let's just do behavioral exercises that are a bit abstract.
- [28:47]
A
And let me tell you what exercises you need to do.
- [28:50]
B
Yeah, like are you not taking your child to swimming lessons? Let's get you back in the pool.
- [28:54]
A
Yeah, exactly. Because that's what we subscribe to in a sense of like, you know, when clinicians come to us, the first question I ask them is, how do I construct an ERP task for this? And I'm like, you don't need to construct anything you ask your client similar to what your clinician did. What are you avoiding? What have you stopped doing in your life? What is no longer working for you? What are your values as a person? How do you want to show up in your life? That's what you need to do. That's your exposure. And then the response, prevention is while you're doing those things because you're then getting back in touch with who you are and you're building a sense of self or rebuilding, then what compulsions do they need to resist and what tools can they use to help them resist those compulsions? That's your ERP task.
- [29:43]
C
I mean, and speaking of, because I know we mentioned it earlier, emetophobia. There was a post the other day about emetophobia from one of my friends, Allegra, and she was just kind of seeking some general advice about emetophobia. And I went on there as an emetophobe and I just read some of the things that these people were responding back of how to treat. And I just was like, I was mortified from the far fetched. And this is where I think, and I'm going to tie this back in. This is where peer support is so important. I am someone with emetophobia. Okay? So I can look at that string of comments and take out 95% of them and be like, that's just a bunch of rubbish. None of that is going to matter to an emetophobia. I'm going to tell you, it's these two comments that will matter. And you could really just tell it was the clinicians that are going to. Okay, I've had this client before and it was this, this, and this. And I was like, spot on. And of course, emetophobia is different for everyone, but it was very much this weird, structured. This is what you do for emetophobia. I could watch people vomiting on TV all day long, and it is not going to impact me. It's not going nothing. Like, emetophobia is so different and it's so personal for people that I just was kind of like, oh, man, people are just by the book. When we aren't treating books, we're treating human beings.
- [31:07]
A
And every human being is different. Like, the context of where emotophobia started for you would be very different to the context of how it started for someone else. And we need to actually listen to the person that we're talking to and gather information around that context, because otherwise, if you do stay black and white, then you're not always going to get effective treatment. And that's why a lot of clinicians can get stuck and then they bring it to supervision and they're like, my client's not changing. Nothing's getting better. Or, we did all right. But then, you know, we're plateauing and all that sort of stuff. And you've got to have a look at, well, it's not just, you know, what's my client doing wrong? It's, well, what can I do in my own self reflection as a clinician to identify what I need to be asking as well, and what I need to be doing and what other reflection. And, you know, what does my formulation look like? What am I missing here? And what do I need to tailor in order to help my client move forward?
- [32:08]
C
It's all individual.
- [32:10]
A
Wow. What a amazing and enriching and insightful conversation we've been having for the last little while. Chrissie, you've shared so many intrusive thoughts with us already, so I'm not going to ask that question because that's something we often ask all our guests just to normalize the experience for a lot of people that we all get them. And, you know, obviously people with ocd, they come in thick and fast. But I guess we just wanted to normalize the idea of intrusive thoughts are a part of our thinking. We can't get rid of them, we can't control them, but we can very much build a life of learning how to live with them and make sure that. That they're fleeting, you know, that they're just coming in, and sometimes they'll hit a little bit too close to home, and you're like, oh, that's uncomfortable. And Then we're like, okay, well how can we make room for that and keep going? But the other one, I think it would be really great is what do you know now that you wish you knew earlier? I'm laughing because I stuffed this question up so many times.
- [33:12]
C
Oh, man. Just how to love myself. And it's still a work in progress because it's still just so easy. Default to loathing. But I didn't realize that you choose it. You choose the same way that you choose to love other people. You have to choose to love yourself. I've always been racing towards this finish line of one day, I'll love myself one day. And I just didn't really know that you could just actually just stop and go or you could love yourself today. And it's the little small things that just added up. And giving myself permission to be loved and I think that's hard for a lot of us with ocd. I think that we break ourselves down and we break our self esteem down. And so again, like, just to kind of connect back to what we were talking about. Sometimes loving other people with OCD can really help us see that we deserve that same sort of love by seeing the shared experience if they deserve love, don't I? So now I'm going to choose to love myself.
- [34:10]
B
Thank you. Chrissy, thank you for joining us today. Gosh, it's been so lovely and easy talking to you.
- [34:16]
A
Thank you.
- [34:17]
C
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [34:20]
A
If this episode was triggering and has raised any concerns for you, please seek help from your local healthcare provider. And if you're in Australia, you can also reach out to Lifeline on 1311. You've been listening to Breaking the Rules, a show for mental health professionals designed to help you build confidence in treating obsessive compulsive disorder.
- [34:44]
B
This podcast is brought to you by Melbourne Wellbeing Group, a psychology practice based in Melbourne with a special focus on treating OCD. To find out more, head to our website, melbournewellbeinggroup.comau all one word. That's melbournewellbeinggroup dot comau this podcast was.
- [35:02]
A
Made with strategy and production support from Wavelength Creative to make sure you don't miss an episode of Breaking the Rules. Be sure to subscribe to or follow the show in your podcast app. And while you're there, leave us a five star review. It really helps others find the show. I'm Celine Galgett.
- [35:19]
B
And I'm Tori Miller.
- [35:21]
A
And we'll be back next episode with more reasons to convince you to get messy.
- [35:26]
B
Have fun and break the room.