The OCD Trap Even Therapists Fall Into

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The OCD Trap Even Therapists Fall Into"

Breaking the Rules: A Clinician's Guide to Treating OCD
Hosts: Dr. Celine Gelgec & Dr. Tori Miller
Release Date: July 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Celine Gelgec and Dr. Tori Miller dive into one of the most insidious "traps" that both OCD clients and clinicians can fall into: the quest for absolute certainty and the contagious nature of doubt, anxiety, and perfectionism. They candidly reflect on their personal experiences as clinicians, exploring how professional insecurity and countertransference can influence the therapeutic process. The episode unpacks why therapists sometimes get stuck in the same unhelpful mental loops as their clients and offers practical insights for staying anchored—allowing both therapist and client to sit with discomfort, uncertainty, and imperfection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Therapists Fall Into “OCD Traps” Too

Timestamp: 04:29 – 07:44

• Dr. Celine recounts a late-night spiral after reading an OCD-related social media post differentiating "doubt" from "uncertainty".
  • She is triggered by her own perfectionism and the authoritative tone of the post.
  • She reviews her own clinical posts and teachings, doubting herself.
  • Quote:

    "I found myself just going, how? How do I differentiate between doubt and uncertainty?... Have I misunderstood this entire time?" — Dr. Celine Gelgec (05:07)

• This reflection leads to recognizing how therapists, like clients, can become anxious about "doing it right” and seeking reassurance.

2. The Nuance: Doubt vs. Uncertainty in OCD

Timestamp: 07:44 – 10:49

• The Instagram post argued that OCD is "about doubt, not uncertainty," referencing the old term “the doubting disease.”
• Both clinicians discuss the clinical and semantic realities:
  • Some clients know their worries are irrational (doubt); others genuinely don’t know and face existential uncertainty.
  • It is not always wrong to use both terms; context matters.
  • Quote:

    "There are loads of examples where actually we are dealing with uncertainty. And so we do need to encourage our clients to lean into that." — Dr. Celine Gelgec (09:47)

3. Clinician Transference and Perfectionism

Timestamp: 10:49 – 14:39

• Discuss how the desire for certainty and not “stuffing up” clients is contagious in therapy spaces.
• Both hosts acknowledge how clinicians can start doubting their approach, seeking other modalities, or softening exposure work out of discomfort.
• Quote:
  > "We feel doubtful, we feel uncertain, we feel like we don't know what we're doing... And we start looking for answers: maybe we should do ICBT instead." — Dr. Celine Gelgec (10:49)
• Perfectionism and professional ego easily get triggered, particularly by people who speak with authority.
• The longing for certainty in both clinician and client can thwart the therapeutic process.

4. The Importance of Therapist Self-Awareness

Timestamp: 19:32 – 21:59

• The ability to notice and tolerate one’s own reactions—such as urges to fix, rescue, shut down, or reassure—prevents clinicians from getting pulled into unhelpful spirals.
• Clinical self-reflection and supervision are essential.
• Quote:
  > "Be mindful of your own, those internal processes and what's going on for you, because that will then impact the work that you do and the choices that you make." — Dr. Celine Gelgec (20:07)
• Therapists’ willingness to sit with discomfort models acceptance for clients.

5. Modeling Uncertainty and Imperfection

Timestamp: 21:26 – 24:26

• Dr. Celine shares using her own reactions in session as a way to model sitting with discomfort for clients (e.g., feeling nauseous during exposure tasks).
• The urge for therapists to seek reassurance from clients or refer out due to self-doubt is discussed as part of normal professional development.
• Quote:
  > "Sometimes, I think in the early days, [I was] worried about what I'd be asked, what would present, what would come into the room so that I wasn't really fully present because I was too caught up in my own anxieties." — Dr. Tori Miller (24:07)

6. The Contagion of Anxiety and the Need To Hold Steady

Timestamp: 16:31 – 18:06

• Both therapists discuss the challenge—especially for new clinicians—of “holding” anxiety without reacting.
• Caving to urgency or client/family pressure to change tack (chasing certainty) can inadvertently reinforce the core of OCD.
• The value lies in maintaining therapeutic steadiness and communicating confidence in sitting with discomfort.
• Quote:
  > "We're in it. This is it. Saying hello to OCD and being the anchor... I'm here with you in the shit. And we're gonna ride it out together." — Dr. Celine Gelgec (16:31)

7. Breaking the Clinician Perfectionism Cycle

Timestamp: 27:40 – 28:41

• Radical acceptance is essential; the myth of the “perfect therapist” is not just unrealistic, but counterproductive.
  • Dr. Tori speaks openly about her past struggles with perfectionism in the clinician role.
  • Quote:

    "I wasn't sure I'd ever truly be able to accept the idea of imperfection, really. Yeah, my perfectionism was so bad. It was so bad." — Dr. Tori Miller (27:53)

8. Personal Anecdotes: Outside the Therapy Room

Timestamp: 28:43 – 31:45

• Dr. Celine shares seeing perfectionism early in her daughter’s play, reflecting on how these tendencies develop and manifest.
• Clinicians relate to feeling "messy" or inadequate in personal and professional domains, normalizing these experiences and reinforcing the need for humility and self-compassion.
• Quote:
  > "'It's really satisfying, isn't it, when it all comes together? But you know what? Messy is okay too.'" — Dr. Celine Gelgec (29:22, recounting conversation with her daughter)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We can't prevent it, but it's such an important thing for us to observe."
  — Dr. Tori Miller (26:56), on the inevitability of therapist insecurity and the value of insight.
• "This is really challenging to get used to—when you're new to the space... we purposely want to make someone feel bad [in exposure work], when our instinct is screaming, make them feel better."
  — Dr. Celine Gelgec (31:13)
• "[Therapist's perfectionism]... it’s exhausting keeping up the pretense."
  — Dr. Tori Miller (28:19)

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Practical Tips/Takeaways for Clinicians

• Self-monitoring is not just for clients; therapists must continually observe their own processes for urges to reassure or "fix."
• Embracing and modeling imperfection and uncertainty can both enhance therapy and reduce burnout.
• Owning discomfort—rather than avoiding or trying to resolve it—makes therapists more effective anchors for clients.
• Supervision and self-compassion practices are essential for sustained growth.

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• 04:29 — Dr. Celine's social media spiral and introduction of the "doubt vs. uncertainty" theme
• 07:44 — Nuanced discussion of clinical language and the impact of language on treatment approach
• 10:49 — How clinicians’ own doubts mirror client processes; the countertransference loop
• 16:31 — Therapists as "anchors" in sessions ("in the shit together")
• 19:32 — Self-awareness about therapist's own triggers and urges and their impact on therapy
• 27:40 — Acceptance of therapist imperfection and radical acceptance
• 28:43 — Anecdotes from Dr. Celine’s family life and broader perfectionism discussion

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Final Thoughts

This episode masterfully blends clinical wisdom, personal vulnerability, and practical guidance, making it an essential listen (or read) for clinicians working with OCD—or any practitioner grappling with their own perfectionism and need for certainty. Dr. Celine and Dr. Tori’s honest stories underscore a core truth: growth for both client and therapist emerges not from eradicating doubt, but from allowing space for mess, discomfort, and the humanity of not always knowing.

Transcript

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[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

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[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

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[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Hi, I'm Dr. Celine Gelgich.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And I'm Dr. Tori Miller. Welcome to Breaking the rules. On breaking the rules, we talk about all things OCD.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Obsessive compulsive disorder. OCD impacts up to 1 to 2% of the population. We are here to provide not just education, but to inspire clinicians, families and people who are impacted by OCD to be able to access the treatment they need in order to get better.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Catch us every fortnight, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Hi, Tori. Hey, Celine.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Back again.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We're back again. How you going today?

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, good.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

How's hockey going? Do you know what? It's not bad. It's good.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, it's not bad.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I play with a. I don't know, just a bunch of the best, best women. And we're all. I don't know, I just don't have time for, like, a highly competitive hardcore.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

You want to be fun?

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I want to be fun. I want to be social. But I also, like, want it to be serious enough that we're actually also developing and.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

That we're not just, like, taking the piss or whatever.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

So.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Ye. Yeah, I've just found the best.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Oh, that's so good.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Bunch of women.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Sounds like a good balance.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Dr. Tori Miller]

So. No, it's really good.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Awesome.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, it's really good.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

What are we talking about today?

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Transference.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Spiraling.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Aren't we?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We're laughing because. And I'm playing with these little letters and I'm avoiding eye contact because Celine spirals all the time. I did. I went down a Celine spiral. It did. It made me laugh quite a lot, actually.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

All right, tell us about it.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

All right, so here's what happened, guys. Okay. Just be kind. Okay, so, you know, it was two o' clock in the morning, as it normally is for me because I'm a night owl, which is really bad when you have a new baby. Anyway, usual 2am was about to wrap up, whatever I was doing, head off to bed and noticed a post on social media about doubt and uncertainty. And so it was by a therapist in the States who also has lived experience. And I love those posts because there's so much richness to them.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Agreed.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And it's so relatable and all that sort of stuff, which is really, really lovely. Anyway, but as I was reading through this carousel, I found myself just going, how? How do I differentiate between doubt and uncertainty? And yeah, this is a good point. And yeah, actually that might be true. And then I thought to myself, how am I writing my posts? So then I started scrolling through my old posts on social around how I've been Talking about OCD and whether or not I've been getting it right and the information I was trying to convey and the message I was trying to convey and all that sort of stuff. And then I was like, oh, man, have I been doing this wrong? What's been going on? Have I misunderstood this entire time? And then I started laughing because I was like, oh, first of all, it's 2:00am, your brain's not working properly. Secondly, this got you good. From the perspective of feeling that transference, which is what our clients feel. Right. When our clients feel doubtful in session, unsure of what's going on, and just wanting answers, I really got pulled into that same exact spiral. And so then I started not just going down the rabbit hole of my old posts, but then I started researching stuff on the Internet and going. Researching the difference between doubt and uncertainty. Like, idiot, I don't know, where's my self compassion? And. And looking through research articles and looking through old workshop content and really, like, it really pulled me in. Okay, great.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

So, like, what have you been teaching as well?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

What have I been teaching as well? Yeah, yeah. What I've been telling my supervisees, what I've been teaching other clinicians when they come along to workshops and stuff. Like, I really went down this rabbit hole. And I think when I look back on it, I think it was because. And we've discussed this before, like, when things are written with a lot of authority, it really kind of. And you, you. I think you talked. We talked about this in the car earlier.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, it gets me.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

It gets you. It gets me too. Like, it really triggers that perfectionism of, like, you know, not wanting to stuff it up, not wanting to get it wrong. Not wanting to stuff up our clients.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Not wanting to do wrong by them. All this sort of stuff. So I really noticed all of that coming up. And after, like almost 20 years.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, you think you'd know.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

You think you'd know. But granted. Okay, I'm gonna put it down to circumstance. Being really late, tired, fatigued, all that sort of stuff. Excuses, excuses, Celine. That's really just what happened.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

No, I bet all that matters.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah, exactly. And so really when I reflected on it, I was thinking, okay, what is she talking about here? So then what happened was I pulled myself out of the spiral, but then I subtly stayed in it because I started justifying things to myself, Reassuring and reassuring myself. Right. So then I went down this rabbit hole of. Well, what is she talking about? Actually, she's referring to insight, doubt. Like, you know, because the post let me give you a little bit more detail and context into the post. So the post was a fairly long carousel, but it was trying to differentiate between when clients experience doubt and when they experience uncertainty. And this person's perspective was, OCD is not really an uncertainty issue. It's an issue around doubt because. And it's not wrong to a degree, because it did used to be called the doubting disease. And a lot of the time people do know that their intrusive thoughts are irrational and that they don't make sense. And oftentimes clients will say, I know this is stupid when I'm in the moment. I can't help it. Like, it just kind of the emotions pull me in and all that sort of stuff. Now that's great when you've got insight. And a lot of the time our clients are insightful, which also doesn't dictate how severe the disorder can be. But there are also a fair chunk of clients who genuinely don't know.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Who are genuinely unsure and feel absolutely terrified.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Whether it be a real event type theme or whether they're questioning their relationship because they have genuine doubt as well as OCD doubt if they should be in it or not, and so on and so forth. So, like, there are examples where there is uncertainty and we can never really know, or if there are existential things. How can we ever be certain around existential themes?

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Right. So there are loads of examples where actually we are dealing with uncertainty.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And so we do need to encourage our clients to lean into that. So this post was kind of saying when it's, you know, not wrongful to say, because they did acknowledge the nuance of it and all that sort of stuff. That it wasn't wrong to say that uncertainty is not part of the picture, but they were a lot more convicted that it's actually doubt.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And that we could be doing a disservice by using the words down and uncertainty interchangeably. That sort of stuff. Which I kind of agree with.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yes.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

There is a difference.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

But I really noticed the spiral and then the reassuring myself afterwards, even though I thought I pulled myself out of it. And I was like, what is going on? And I was like, we need to talk about this in the podcast. Because I can see how a lot of clinicians would, because we consume a lot of information. Right. Would either experience the same sort of thing, or when their client is bringing a lot of uncertainty, a lot of anxiety, a lot of discomfort in the room, we get left feeling that counter transference happens. We get left feeling with the same.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We feel doubtful, we feel uncertain, we feel like we don't know what we're doing. We feel like we're out of our depth, we feel like we're getting it all wrong. And we start looking for answers as to maybe we should try or maybe we should do ICBT instead.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Maybe I should do schema or maybe I should do this other thing. Or maybe exposure is not going to work. Maybe I need to soften it a little bit. Maybe I need to do some other thing.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Because it gets so messy.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Because it sounds like what you're saying, right. Is that the content of the post.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

At the end of the day was just interesting.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

It was a curious idea. It was one person's perspective.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And in the cold light of day, you can say. Yeah, it's a perspective shared by a clinician.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

You know, and it is food for thought.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

But in that moment, it was triggering for you.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Because your sense of, like, responsibility to your clients and your. Your trainees and your supervisees, your personal ego as a clinician and as a. We can't say specialist, but we can't say expert.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

What can we say? Someone who has a niche in working with OCD. Shift F7. Where's that thesaurus when you need it?

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I want to be opera compliant whilst describing you, but as someone who has an interest in. And 20 years of experience working with clients with OCD that, you know, your. Your sort of. Your ego, your identity, all of this stuff is sort of on the line as well as, you know, that enormous sense of responsibility you have and your perfectionism, et cetera, or got triggered. Like, what the. Have I got this wrong?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And like what? Like, is it humiliation, embarrassment. Yes. Guilt, shame, all of those things, which is. Yeah. What you're describing is what our clients are going through.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Right.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And then you think, you get your together and you're like, snap out of this. Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And then you're like.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And then the reassurance kicks in.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Well, none of us are immune to this. Are we not? None of us are immune to this.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

No, we're not.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah. No.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Which is why I'm bringing it up.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Because we've all felt it and still do.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And what you're describing is something that, you know, any of us could experience. Right. And I think we all have probably some lived experience where we could, if we really thought about it, identify the same kind of thing. But you're so right also, that as OCD clinicians, we've got to be really careful about how we respond to these things. We've got to have our own level of insight about our ability to spiral and to become perfectionistic or kind of dogmatic about how we treat OCD or about our knowledge about our sort of what our drivers are, either in the room with clients or in our research after the fact or, you know, how we're approaching this. Because that desire for certainty is kind of contagious, isn't it?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And you were talking about the idea of transference before, you know, partly our encounter transference, you know, where we. Our own stuff is kind of, you know, within us.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

But also the transference we experience from our clients about wanting to be certain, wanting to reassure them, wanting to kind of reassure ourselves that we're good enough clinicians, that we know what we're doing, that we're treating sensibly and that we can be. We can really take on that kind of obsessive thinking and that compulsive behavior really readily because it's in the room with us and we're holding it for our clients. And we've got. Got to be really careful because if we are reactive to that, as opposed to just curious and just like the curious observer.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

If we're really reactive to it, you know, we're not doing our clients any favors.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

No, we're not.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Nor ourselves. Nor ourselves, really. Because we're getting lost in that.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And then we lose sight of the bigger picture. And the message that we start sending to our clients is, you're right, you can't cope with this. We do need to shift gears. This is too much.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We need to do something else because this isn't working. As opposed to standing back observing what's going on and going.

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[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We're in it.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

This is it. Saying hello to OCD and being the anchor. The client needs to hold that space to then go, all this shit's happening around us and we're gonna let it happen.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

But I'm here with you in the shit.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And we're gonna ride it out together.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And it doesn't mean white knuckling or anything like that, but, like, you know, how can we utilize what we've learned to help us through this process as opposed to getting caught up in it and feeling like we also need to shift those gears and do something to get rid of it? Because it's not something to resolve.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

No. Because the sense of urgency actually.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Can be very, very heightened in the therapy room.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

It's so contagious.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Especially when it comes from parents or family members. Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

There can be pressure.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

That we can. That we can experience. And holding it is hard.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

It is hard.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Holding it without reacting. Yeah. Is. Is really difficult. And. Yeah. And. And delivering the disappointing news that we have to sort of stay the course, I think is. Is really difficult. I think we all, I think, fantasize about a magic bullet, right?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Oh, yeah. For sure. Oh, my God.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I would love. I would love to be able to turn up to work one day and say, I figured it out.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

I think you have ocd.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

We've got it.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

This is it. Could you imagine do this today and it'll be done.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And you're free.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah. Be amazing. Could you just work on that? Okay.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, I know.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And it's. It's not easy holding that line for our clients and being the anchor that they need.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

It's really hard work. And I think, too, when. Especially when you're new to the space, when you're learning about it, it's really challenging not to get pulled in. Like sometimes I'll say posts on Facebook groups where there are young clinicians who are clinician, not even Young, but like clinicians who are new to the OCD space. And I remember one in particular, they were like, oh, you know, I've been reading this textbook, but I'm wondering if it's outdated because I'm seeing all this other information popping up. And now I'm worried that I'm doing the wrong thing with my client. And it was. Was all well and good. It was exposure therapy based. But, you know, someone like, they were talking about hierarchies and then had heard that hierarchies aren't something that you necessarily need to follow. It's not that you don't have to. That you shouldn't do them. It's that actually a menu style is like. Yeah, like what we've talked about.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

It's just one method.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

It's just one method of doing it. And so they kind of really got caught up in that. And then all this angst came up and then all the comments followed in terms of everyone's different perspective and opinion. And all were valid and all were helpful and all that sort of stuff. But it's just so easily done.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

You know, and it was a person near the space versus someone like me who's been in the space forever also feeling.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yes.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And still getting stuck in it. So I think sometimes we need to be aware of our own. Not sometimes, a lot of time we really need to be aware of our own processes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Well.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And what we bring to the room.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Well, maybe for people who aren't so familiar. What do you mean by aware of

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

your own processes, your own triggers? In terms of when something's happening in the room? What are you noticing is happening for you? What's your own commentary like, what urges are coming up for you? Are you noticing an urge to fix it or problem solve? Are you noticing an urge to avoid? Are you noticing an urge to want to soften and rescue? Are you noticing an urge to want to shut down for your own self? Right. Are you noticing resentment coming up because the client is asking something of you that you know is not possible to do because it can't be resolved? Are you noticing frustration or anger, all of just being mindful of your own, those internal processes and what's going on for you? Because that will then impact the work that you do and the choices that you make? And I'm not saying that we can't have those experiences. Absolutely. We're human beings. We're going to have those experiences.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I would actually argue that we should be. We should be having those experiences because

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

it tells us something if we are

[Dr. Tori Miller]

open to our clients and we are in the space with them and we are attuned to them, then we will be receiving.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes. Because it means we're present in the session.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Right.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And so those experiences tell us very important information. The problem is when it starts to impact the choices that you make when it comes to treatment. So what we described earlier of getting pulled into the vortex and feeling like you have to shift gears or feeling like you need to change therapy styles or therapeutic methods or whatever else it might be, or softening the exposure or rescuing the client, whatever it is. So have the experience because it tells you important information. It tells you that you're being present with your client, as you mentioned, but then also make room for it.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We got to do. We have to treat that. We have to do what we're asking our clients to do. We're asking our clients to make space for discomfort, imperfection, anxiety, worry. We're making space for the embarrassment, the shame, the whatever else is coming up. So we have noticing it for ourselves, but also leaning into it and just letting it sit there while we then continue to hold space for our clients and be the anchor that they need. So it's like I'm holding my together so that I can then be there for you.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

To also help hold your shit, too.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And. And that's modeling.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Right.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Because when. And sometimes, actually when that's happened to me in session, I've said to clients, especially when it's around vomit videos or, like, some. Because when I hear the sound of vomit, I start dry reaching. And so I'm like. Oh, man. Like, I'm sitting with this discomfort. I want to dry reach right now. Or we're in this together.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And so as opposed to noticing that and then trying to talk them out of that.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Or do something else.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Or soften the exposure and collude with it, because I also find it disgusting.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And so going. You know what? You're so just. No one likes vomiting.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

No way.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We don't have to watch that.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Let's just turn the sound off.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah. You know, we're still watching the video, but the sounds are on. So all of these processes, I think, are basically.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

What I'm referring to and are important. So this one Instagram post sends me into a tease.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And now look what we're talking about.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Thank you, Instagram.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

But you're right, look, I have very distinct memories early, early in my career, but also then when I. When I sort of started working at Melbourne Melbein Group and started really sort of immersing myself in OCD work of feeling strong feelings, of inadequacy. And even though I had lots of years of experience, I was new to the OCD space. Yes. No, actually, that's not true. I wasn't new to ocd. I was new to erp.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And so I was having lots and lots of feelings of inferiority and inadequacy, and so I was really overcompensating for that. And for ages, things like. Like I'd read a book. Right. I'd read a book and I'd be inspired by it, but it would trigger for me this, like, cascade of thoughts about, like, why didn't you know that

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

you think of that?

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Or, like, I'd listen to a podcast and someone would sound so clever and I'd be like, God, everyone is so gifted. Everyone knows all of this stuff. You know, nothing. You know, I mean, like, forget the fact that these are people who have prepared for the episode or whatever, you

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

know, not like us guys. We don't prepare.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah. So anyone who spoke with any kind of authority was, like. Was just really triggering for me. And then I had to start observing how I was bringing that into the space with my clients, because it's one thing to kind of be motivated by this and go, oh, I've got a lot to learn. But I was definitely judging myself.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

For not having that, which was my own process. But then I had to be really careful because I had an urge sometimes to. I don't know, to refer clients on. To defer to others as. As more expert and. And better able to treat than I was. I was anxiously sort of entering the therapy space, and I was sometimes, I think in the early days, worried about what I'd be asked, what would present, what would come into the room so that I wasn't really fully present because I was too caught up in my own kind of anxieties. And so my own sort of mini spirals, as you're talking about, was really taking me away from the work. And. And then.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And also impacting your ability to keep learning.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, yeah, that.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Because you weren't giving yourself the opportunity.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Referring on. Or whatever else it might have been.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, absolutely. And then I was then also, I think, judging myself based on what was happening and transpiring in the room. So clients progress, feedback from parents. Even though I can look back now with wisdom and say, that was all fine. That was all fine. But I was coming away one feeling, like the urge to confess yes. To justify. To reassure myself.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I was sometimes probably reassurance seeking, even from clients or parents. Not in a pathological way, but kind of like. Does that make sense? Is that landing? Do you think that's something that you could do? Is this working?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

How did your ERP go last week?

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Am I a good clinician? Do you love me? Is this the best therapy you've ever had? Please say yes. Not really.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

I didn't really not do that, but I wanted to do it so bad. I wanted to do it so bad. But.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yes, but these are the.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

These are.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

This is sort of my own processes that then I was bringing into the room, and then I had to be really careful. So lots of supervision. But as you were saying, lots of just observation of what I was thinking, what my experience was, what was coming up for me as well as then my own work in my own therapy to then go away and actually look at what was being activated and the origin story of that and why it was so that anyone said something and I'd automatically assumed that I was, you know.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

In inadequate.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Intellect.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

So good enough.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah, absolutely. So lots and lots of. Of work which now, on the other side of that. Well, you know, the journey is forever. But, yes, I'm glad to have done it.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

But. But I think that it is a very. We can't prevent it, but it's such an important thing for us to observe. And I think it is true, whether you're treating OCD or not, that these are processes that you're observing. But I think the reason that we bring it up in particular is because our clients bring so much uncertainty into the space. It's infectious, it's contagious. And so we have to watch that particular transference and that we are not responding to our clients longing for uncertainty and our own kind of, you know. You know, a kind of desire to be perfect clinicians. That we don't compensate for that by trying to be certain and perfect in the room. Yes. Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Because it doesn't exist.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

It's not what our clients need. That.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

It's not what they need and it doesn't exist.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Hate to break it to you.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I know. And in fact, accepting this, that's that radical acceptance.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Around, you know, modeling, honestly.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I wasn't sure I'd ever truly be able to accept the idea of imperfection, really. And, yeah, my perfectionism was so bad. It was so bad. Yeah, it was so bad.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Like, it was so hard for me to be humble and, you know, like, it was exhausting keeping up the pretense. And so, like, I genuinely wasn't sure that I like, I read it in the books, you know, like, of course.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Clinicians are forever learning.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I was like, that I'm gonna know

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

it all and I'm gonna be perfect. Yes. Yeah.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Surprise.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We don't know it all

[Dr. Tori Miller]

and we don't have to. And I truly, I truly believe it.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

I think in that clinician space, I'd happily, I happily sit in that not knowing and all that sort of thing.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

What about in the non clinician space?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Except for the Instagram post.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Except the Instagram post.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

But in the non clinician space. Man, took living with my husband. I love you. To get comfortable with lots of information. It's a different story. Yeah. But bless. I find my little three year old. She's so sweet, but I see so much of myself in her with her perfectionism as a three year old. And she's like, yesterday she told me, she goes, mama, this puzzle is perfect.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Oh.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And then she went,

[Dr. Tori Miller]

so satisfied.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

So satisfied. And I went, it's really satisfying, isn't it, when it all comes together. But you know what? Messy is okay too.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And I took some pieces out and she goes, oh, no, now I have to do it again another time. Let's go do something else. And so to see it so young.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Is really instinctive. Very instinctive. But it is satisfying because it's also the age where we want the patterns, we want the neatness, the completeness that like, based on where they're at. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's understanding sequence and concept, like those sorts of concepts.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

And also from a motor and so developmental stage, the ability to finally like the cause and effect, to be able

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

to kind of interact with the world.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Like then to have that independence and agency, to be able to complete a task in its entirety and have that beautiful sense of satisfaction from what I created. Look what I have control over.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How beautiful is that? Absolutely. Especially when, you know, when you first start in a coloring book and their head, their motor corner, like all over the shop. And I remember she'd like do a little bit and go, oh no, you do it. And they're like, you're learning. It's going to be messy. And then she'd be like, oh, no. She'd flip the page and want to start again. But now she's like, I'm, I can hear her going, I'm still learning, I'm still learning. And she keeps going and then like the mess outside the line slowly gets less and less. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. That's what happens when you keep practicing. We've digressed. Yeah. Perfectionism for me, outside of the. The workspace. And it does. It creeps into work as well. But happily, be humbled any day at work. But yeah, it's a rough truck.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

We have as clinicians and I think because a lot of the OCD space, it's so counterintuitive to how we normally would help someone.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Like we purposely want to make someone feel bad.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I know.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

When our instinct is screaming, make them feel better.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Yeah. Make them feel.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Make it go away. Make it feel. Make them feel comfortable. Like, help, like, you know.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

I know.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

And so it's really challenging to get used to that as well when you're new to the space. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Ramblings. Thanks, Instagram, for some gems of, like, some reflections and helping me process my.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

No, that was fun. Thanks for bringing that in.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

My. Thanks for honesty, my little tease.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

It's fun to look at teases afterwards, isn't it?

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Not in the moment.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

No. No, in the moment.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

It was horrible.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

I was ruminating. I was like trying to sleep. I'm like, come on, it's 2:30. He's gonna get up soon for food. I need to sleep. No, it was good. Not really, but. All right, now. It was. Anyway, all right.

[Dr. Tori Miller]

Until next time.

[Dr. Celine Gelgich]

Yes. I hope you guys found that really useful. Please hit the subscribe button. We'll catch you next episode.

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