Crises in South Korea and Minneapolis; the Supreme Court Hears the Transgender Athlete Case and the Worldwide Persecution of Christians is Getting Worse.

Summary

Breakpoint Podcast Summary
Crisis in South Korea and Minneapolis; SCOTUS Hears Transgender Athlete Case; Christian Persecution Worldwide
January 23, 2026
Hosts: John Stonestreet and Maria Baer

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Overview

In this episode, John Stonestreet and Maria Baer discuss pressing cultural and political events through a Christian worldview, covering:

• John’s recent trip to South Korea and the clampdown on religious dissent.
• Ongoing chaos in Minneapolis over immigration enforcement and protests.
• The Supreme Court’s hearing on transgender athletes in girls’ sports.
• The rising persecution of Christians worldwide and demographic trends indicating falling fertility rates.
• Relevant listener questions on the Bible, gender, and hookup culture.

Throughout, the hosts emphasize the implications of current events for Christians’ engagement in society, the importance of upholding truth, and the universality of the Christian worldview.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. South Korea’s Religious and Cultural Crisis

• John visited South Korea to meet Colson Fellows and local churches, observing the contrast between North and South Korea as a stark display of freedom vs. oppression.
  • “These are universals. And certainly there are places where things don’t translate… But first of all, we’re talking about universals… and that’s no more obvious than in South Korea.” (John, 02:16)
• South Korea is undergoing a crackdown on vocal Christian leaders under an aggressively progressive government.
  • Example: A pastor critical of government policy and LGBT issues has been imprisoned under dubious charges.
  • “There’s a real intent there to squash religious dissent.” (John, 04:16)
• Concern in Korean Christianity: Many have retreated to a privatized, disengaged faith, echoing trends seen in the West.
  • “To be culturally engaged is a problem...rather than seeing the lordship of Christ over every area.” (John, 04:16)
• South Koreans are aware of U.S. cultural battles and find some aspects, like LGBT debates, bewildering.
  • “The LGBT stuff is just bizarre, you know, to them.” (John, 07:58)

2. Minneapolis & Immigration/Protest Unrest

• Recent weeks saw protests in Minneapolis around ICE raids and a controversial arrest (wrongful detainment of a Laos-born U.S. citizen).
• Social media created echo chambers: on BlueSky, outrage over ICE abuses; on X (Twitter), focus on protests at a local church.
  • “It just kind of drove home the silos that we’re in.” (Maria, 09:11)
• The church targeted by protesters was particularly fearful, given recent shootings at houses of worship.
  • “You can forgive this church for being really scared...It was just a few months ago at a church in Minneapolis where a bunch of children were shot...” (John, 11:01)
• Hosts emphasize nuance: Christians are called to both stand with lawful government and resist dehumanization, balancing the call of church and state.
  • “The Christian worldview doesn’t allow us to do [dehumanize immigrants] in the same way that...doesn’t allow a church to stand in the way of the law.” (John, 17:48)
• They unpack the collision of First Amendment rights: speech vs. religion.
  • “There is not a justification for what the...what we’re seeing in Minneapolis. It’s interference. It’s lawlessness. It’s intimidation.” (John, 17:48)
• Protection of religious freedom is vital; unchecked intimidation will erode core American rights.
  • “If the government doesn’t protect that, then the government is allowing the erosion of that kind of First Amendment freedom at an alarming place.” (John, 22:45)

3. SCOTUS Arguments: Transgender Athlete Case

• The Supreme Court heard arguments concerning laws in West Virginia and Idaho barring males from girls’ sports; litigation focused more on technicalities of Title IX than fundamental definitions of sex.
• Notable moment: Justices used “trans boys” and “trans girls” terminology, frustrating some listeners who saw it as conceding important language battles.
  • “It’s a real mistake because...How we use language should match reality and we shouldn’t lie. We should tell the truth.” (John, 28:06)
• Gaslighting around pronouns is rampant and influences even institutions like the Supreme Court.
  • “It is a form of gaslighting, maybe the most pronounced form of gaslighting in our lifetimes...” (John, 28:06)
• The hosts recommend understanding the history of the gay rights and trans movements (see Scott Yenor’s First Things essay).
• There’s confusion and denial of basic realities in public discourse, particularly concerning sex, gender, and medical realities.
  • “You don’t know any man that’s ever become a woman. No one does.” (John, 33:13)
• Language creates new “rules” and a lack of clarity carries real, damaging consequences for children.
  • “This whole game is a bunch of adults playing with words because...kids are taking them at their word. That’s why this is so dangerous.” (Maria, 36:56)

4. Christian Persecution Worldwide (Open Doors Report)

• Open Doors’ World Watch List: Persecution of Christians increased, now affecting an estimated 388 million believers.
  • “It’s always at the hands of secularist...communist kind of frameworks or Islam.” (John, 44:08)
• The contrast between North and South Korea is a sobering look at what’s at stake when freedom is eroded.

5. Population Decline, Marriage, and Worldview

• U.S. deaths will soon outpace births; the falling fertility rate is a worldview issue, not merely a demographic trend.
  • “The fertility rate tells you a lot about the worldview of a nation, particularly whether it’s sensate or ideational.” (John, 45:44)
• There is a direct link between declining marriage rates, religiosity, and fertility.
  • “The higher the marriage rate, the higher the fertility rate.” (John, 48:55)
• Policy can help, but culture and the church must lead in promoting marriage and family.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Universality of Christian Worldview
  • “The worldview message, the idea of Christianity being about all of life, not just about my eternity...is something that I think is, is really important and needed.” (John, 04:11)
• On Lawlessness vs. Freedom
  • “When you do not uphold the laws that you have, lawlessness is misunderstood for being freedom.” (John, 13:11)
• On Speech, Protest, and the First Amendment
  • “[Freedom of religion] does not allow me to practice child sacrifice...Freedoms cannot overstep the bounds into someone else’s, particularly when it comes to fear and intimidation.” (John, 19:22)
• On Language and Reality
  • “How we use language should match reality and we shouldn't lie. We should tell the truth.” (John, 28:06)
• On Human Capacity for Self-Delusion
  • “Jack Olson used to say there’s no limit to the human capacity for self justification, self delusion and self rationalization. And I think we have seen that.” (John, 41:34)
• On the Value of Women and Christianity
  • “The way that Christianity has in its history elevated women at a point where literally no other force in human history even comes close.” (John, 52:42)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• South Korea Religious Landscape & Government Crackdown: 02:16–07:53
• Minneapolis: ICE Raids, Protests, Church Intrusion: 09:11–24:19
• First Amendment Rights and Religious Freedom: 17:48–24:19
• SCOTUS – Transgender Athlete Case: 25:36–39:58
• The Power of Language, Culture Wars, and Reality: 28:06–43:01
• Christian Persecution/Open Doors Report: 43:52–45:02
• Falling Fertility/Marriage Trends/Worldview: 45:44–51:56
• Listener Q: Bible, Women, Authority: 51:56–56:56
• Listener Q: Hookup Culture & Gen Z: 58:22–62:57

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Listener Questions

• On Women's Place in the Bible:

  • Christianity uniquely elevated women’s value beyond any other civilization, citing Judeo-Christian teaching that both men and women are made in God’s image.
  • “If women aren’t made in the Image of God, then you have no grounds by which to argue for the equality of women to begin with.” (John, 52:42)

• On Sexual Behavior Trends Among Youth:

  • Decreased hookup culture among Gen Z is due to loneliness and technology, but may simply reflect shifting forms of sexual brokenness, not increased health.
  • “A group of young men who aren’t getting girls pregnant in high school are not less sexually broken if instead they’re incels and addicted to pornography...” (John, 58:22)

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Recommendations

• Article: “The Rise and Fall of Gay Activism” by Scott Yenor (First Things)
• Book: A Practical Guide to Culture by John Stonestreet & Brett Kunkel

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From the Colson Center for Christian Worldview, hosts encourage listeners to remain hopeful, informed, and engaged as culture continues to shift, always seeking to align with truth and act faithfully in their time and place.

Transcript

[Maria Baer]

You're listening to breakpoint this Week where we're talking about the top stories of the week from a Christian Worldview. Today, we're going to talk about religious persecution, including John's trip to South Korea and what he learned from Christians there. We're also going to talk about the continuing chaos in Minnesota over protests and ice raids. We have a lot to get to this week. We're so glad you're with us. Please stick around. Welcome to breakpoint this week from the Coulson center for Christian Worldview. I'm Maria Baer alongside John Stonestreet, president of the Coulson center. Back on American soil. John, I've always wanted to see the northern lights, and I was wondering if maybe we could take this show on the road and head to Greenland to record next week's episode. We might not need our passport by then. What do you think?

[John Stonestreet]

Oh, man. So we spent last week, my daughter and I traveling to South Korea to visit Colson Fellows cohort there, as well as a couple churches. And here we are this week recording on Wednesday. And it feels like there, there are certain cultural moments where it feels like there's a whole lot that could happen in the next 72 hours which could make our, you know, program here sound completely tone deaf when it airs on Friday. Like, how could you not talk about this? And we got a lot of questions this week about Minneapolis, which we'll, we'll talk about about Greenland and, you know, Trump's claim, although I guess at Davos this week he walked back. The, the, the insinuation that he was willing to use the military, which is, you know, a good thing to walk back. But, yeah, an awful lot is going on right now. So I'm really worried here as we we've got a board meeting this week and so not able to record later in the week. A whole lot could happen, you know, between now and airtime.

[Maria Baer]

I'm optimistic. I've always wanted to go up there, so. Well, John, before we talk about Minneapolis and what's going on there, some of the major cultural issues of the week, tell us a little bit about your trip. South Korea is not a place that people travel to every day. So you said you were visiting some Coulson Fellows and a couple churches there. What kind of stuff did you see?

[John Stonestreet]

We have some wonderful international cohorts of the Colson Fellows program. It's interesting, too, that there are ways in which Christian Worldview gets accused, particularly the way we do it, sometimes gets accused of being kind of culturally insensitive. Or that it doesn't apply outside of America, and it's just not true. What you find is that when you start by talking about the universals or the Christian story, creation, fall, redemption, restoration, or the idea of the image of God which is, according to a Christian worldview, the universal identity of every person, no matter what tongue, tribe, nation and language that they're from, or the idea of calling this intersection of the work of God in history with the valuable individual created in community, the church, you know, things like that. These are universals. And certainly there are places where things don't translate. That's obviously true. But first of all, we're talking about universals. And second, we're also talking about a time where, you know, the western world has been exported around the world and. And that's no more obvious than in South Korea. It's been 75 years since the Korean war when the communist north invaded the south, pushed all the way to the south part of that peninsula. And then the UN Forces, for newly formed UN Made up primarily of U. S. Forces, pushed back. And then there was an armistice sign in three years later, so 1953. And so what you have is a very clear example of the difference between a free people and a not free people. There's no more stark contrast. Many people have seen just the images at night of, you know, North Korea versus South Korea on Google images with.

[Maria Baer]

Like, very little light in North Korea and lights blazing all across South Korea.

[John Stonestreet]

Yeah, it couldn't be more different. I have some friends who have traveled in to North Korea on diplomatic missions or educational work. And what they see, you have a limited teaching of history. You have soil that's just been abused and is not growing anything anymore. You have the bark on trees that have been stripped up basically to human height because people are snacking on that because they just don't have enough to eat. South Korea is what many people call an economic miracle. I went up to the highest point in Seoul, and you look around everywhere you look, it's a developed city, I mean, as far as you can see. Now, as someone who likes a little bit of space and elbow room, it was a little too crowded for my comfort level. Ten and ten million, I think, in that larger metro area. But it's a remarkable. It's a remarkable place. And it has a very vibrant church, huge churches, people who really care and know about how to pray. But there's a crisis happening in South Korea where you have a government that is increasingly progressive and aggressively progressive right now in power for the next Five years a pastor. I wrote about this this week on a breakpoint Commentary who was outspoken in his critique of the government, socialism and pro LGBT policies. Has been accused of conspiring on an election to overturn election, has 17 charges. He was arrested five months ago, was not released on bail, is still imprisoned awaiting trial and faces jail time. And it's such an extreme penalty for something that should not merit jail time and hasn't. You know, South Korea really has been modeled after the US in many ways and including, you know, the way the government works, freedom, justice system. And some of this stuff is really encroaching on religion. There's a real intent there to squash religious dissent. At the same time, there's a real concern by Christians there that many other Christians in South Korea have a highly privatized faith. Something we talk about here in the US that this is about me and Jesus. This is about going to heaven when I die. To be culturally engaged is a problem. It's, it's a distraction from what really matters rather than seeing the lordship of Christ over every area. As fraught as that can be when played out in a moment like ours, the opposite also is, is a real problem. And that's what's happening over there. So the worldview message, the idea of Christianity being about all of life, not just about my eternity or not just about my spiritual life, but about being about our families and our communities and our cultures, is, is something that I think is, is really important and needed. And you're right, most people don't find their way to South Korea. They certainly don't do it in January because it is cold. I mean, cold over there, especially in Seoul. Busan was very nice and warm, but not so much Seoul. So anyway, it was, I'm still, I'm still pretty jet lagged and it was just interesting given the conversations we have had about the American context and about the left and the worldview collision that the left is promoting on issues of sexuality and socialism and how that reflects on our understanding of the image of God. These are just as much essential conversations there as they are here right now.

[Maria Baer]

Are Christians in South Korea really tuned in to kind of the cultural battles happening in America?

[John Stonestreet]

You know, some of them are aware of it. There's, there's things you look at, I mean, obviously many people around the world look at, you know, the high level of noise that is happening around the Trump administration and Greenland and, you know, Venezuela. They don't, they certainly aren't able to see it as a, as a justifiable position. On the other hand, the LGBT stuff is just bizarre, you know, to them. I mean, South Korea, they're at the point where they're been fighting now for years an anti discrimination law, which is, if you remember, I mean, that seems like it was so 90s because it was so 90s that that's when we were talking about. Right. Like that conversation started like, oh, we, you know, we can't discriminate. And how that started the gay rights move in the gay rights movement and now how it became, we need, you know, drag queen story hours for our third graders. I mean, you know, they, they look and go, you know, what happened? I think rightfully so. So some of it's bizarre. You know, obviously around the world, many people know what the BBC tells them, and that's not necessarily a balanced news source. So, you know, there's a lot of factors to that, to that question.

[Maria Baer]

Okay, well, let's return to American soil. Let's talk about what's going on in Minnesota, Minneapolis in particular. So there was news over the weekend, of course, there have been protests now for weeks about ICE raids and immigration enforcement operations happening, particularly in Minneapolis. We talked before about the killing of Renee Goode, but this past Sunday, there was more headlines about a protest that made its way into a church. And of course, the former CNN anchor Don Lemon was part of it and was livestreaming it. And these protesters went into a church where I guess one of the pastors or the elders somehow serves with ice. And that was kind of the pretext for it. I just saw a really fascinating piece in Matt Taibbi's Racket news about this, because the same day that that protest happened in the church, ICE arrested a Laos born man who is American, and he was wrongly arrested. So they mistook him for what they characterized as a sex offender. And then now they've released this person. But it was kind of a somewhat violent arrest. Like they brought him out kind of in his underwear, they barged into his home kind of thing. Matt Taib published this fascinating kind of unsettling story about the different volume of these two stories on X versus Blue Sky. If you were on Blue sky, the world was up in arms about the arrest of this man from Laos who was an American citizen. And if you were on X, people were up in arms about this protest in a church. And it just kind of drove home the silos that we're in. I think both of these situations are concerning. But as you mentioned, we've gotten questions from some breakpoint listeners just about how do we make sense of the overall chaos in Minneapolis, in Minnesota with regards to immigration enforcement?

[John Stonestreet]

Well, I mean, we also got questions about our silence on it. And one of the reasons is, you know, we, because of how fast the news cycle moves, we also, at breakpoint in the Colson center, don't feel like we're breaking news story people. That's not what we do. The idea is there is an analysis that needs to be done of cultural events from a Christian worldview. And the temptation is to do what our culture has done, which is to let politics take over every story culturally so that every cultural story is seen through a political lens. And it's very hard to resist that temptation at times. But the idea is just because something is politically important does not mean it's culturally important. Or at least for the concerns that we have within a Christian worldview, this one certainly has crossed the line. And when you say both of these stories, the story of this man from who was arrested wrongly and the story of the church are concerning, I mean, I would escalate that pretty high. I mean, we're talking about very, very alarming things that are happening. You know, immediately after Renee Goode was shot, you had again, politically with, without a full understanding of the facts and anything, people concluding this was wrong, this was right, this was justified, this was unjustified. And that does speak to the echo chambers that people are in ideologically, not just on social media. But when you take ideology and combine social media, it creates one heck of an echo chamber. There's just so much going on up there that reflects so much of the problems that America has already been in. These are pre existing conditions that something like this situation takes place. So I mean, look, you have to call balls and strikes when you're doing the amount of work, work to enforce immigration laws, arrest offenders who are here illegally, you're not going to bat a thousand. And it doesn't do the right any good to say that ICE is doing everything right. They're not doing everything right. Even if they're. The job that they're trying to do is a right job to do. It's being done in a context where the cat's been out of the bag for so long, it's going to be impossible to do it in a way. And it's at such a heated level. What happened at the church in Minneapolis was despicable. I appreciated too the context that Scott Jennings brought on CNN the other night where he said, you know, look, you can forgive this church for being really scared. And the Parents at this church for being really scared. It was just a few months ago at a church in Minneapolis where a bunch of children were shot, and these protesters came in and targeted that. And I think on a worldview angle, one of the things we need to get to is how do you balance or how do you wrestle with the collision within the First Amendment, which is, you know, we have folks saying that the protesters have freedom of speech and obviously the First. And that's a First Amendment right, but there's also the freedom of religion. So we got to wrestle with that. But before we get there, like, this has been a horrible situation that's been allowed for too long now. It has to be reined in, and there are going to be abuses, and you have to call the abuses out when there's. When, when, when, when they happen. And calling the abuses out is not the same thing as undermining the entire effort, but that's unfortunately the way that it has to be portrayed. So I know it's a pretty simplistic worldview analysis to say it's all just a complete mess, and trying to wage your way through it means everything's just going to be messy. That's simplistic, but at some level it's really true. And it undermines this kind of idea that everybody on my side of the aisle is good and everybody on your side of the aisle is bad, or that we're both equal. I mean, neither one of those. The creation, fall, redemption, restoration framing is so much more helpful because you start with human dignity and you have an understanding of human sin that plays itself out both individually and structurally, which includes institutions and includes cultures. It includes groups of people as well as individuals. And it also reflects too what happens when you allow a culture to go down the road as far as ours has, into lawlessness. In other words, when you do not uphold the laws that you have, lawlessness is misunderstood for being freedom anyway. There's just a whole lot of things that. That play into this.

[Maria Baer]

Another framework that helps me a lot with situations like this is something that you've really taught me, which is to narrow your focus to the time and the space that you have been physically placed in. The siloing is tempting. It's also tempting to feel like I have to. I am an individual Christian, and I need to have an exact answer from the Bible for how this large national issue should play out and how each person should act and what should be happening in that city and what the consequences should be for that wrongful arrest or that protest or Whatever, as opposed to kind of taking the pressure off a little bit. It is not my job to solve that huge problem by myself or to explain every aspect of it. It is my job to be faithful in the time and place that I am, which in my case means, you know, we have families at our church that are here illegally and are scared. And my pastor is trying to help them walk through the legal process to do this the most appropriate and respectful of the law way possible, while at the same time caring for them as individuals, like giving them rides and throwing a birthday party for their son. All the while, we accept the consequences of the risk they took while it's threading these personal needles, because those people are in my life as opposed to one of the other. I think poisons of things like social media is that it's made us feel like the most important thing we can do in any situation is posture ourselves. It's what we post online or whether we protest or don't protest or what sign we hold up or how we react to some situation that happened five states away, as opposed to just being faithful in the moment that we're in. And I would say part of that is going to include for every Christian to never stop worshiping the Lord together, regardless of the intimidation of the double standard, of the hypocrisy of people who would invade your space. And I understand the fear, but we cannot let people stop us from worshiping the Lord together.

[John Stonestreet]

Right. And we have immigrants in our church who are here legally that are scared. And my guests are also taking, at times and places, unnecessary abuse from people who have demonized entire groups of people. And the Christian worldview doesn't allow us to do that in the same way that the Christian worldview doesn't allow a church to stand in the way of the law. Right. I mean, these are the nuances. I'd call it less threading needles. And I think it's kind of understanding what is the call of the church and what is the call of the state, and how do you understand all that? I will say, though, that First Amendment thing is a really important thing to understand, because there is not a justification for what the. And calling it a protest, I think, is even the wrong word for what happened. What we're seeing. Well, what we're seeing in Minneapolis, it's interference. It's lawlessness, intimidation. There is activity that is illegal, certainly intimidation. And even more, you have people completely crossing the line and then justifying it by protest, including Don Lemon. You know, Don Lemon now is trying to Turn around and say, well, I wasn't even a protester, I was just a journalist. Well, if you look at the journalism he did, he wasn't just protesting, he was interfering and violating a church in the midst of worship. It's one thing to protest out of the church, it's another thing to walk in in the middle of a worship service.

[Maria Baer]

It's so hard to respect that. Well, because the First Amendment, one way or the other, man, like, were you part of it or not?

[John Stonestreet]

I think he's worse worried. Yeah, but I mean, but let's parse this out a little bit, because it is really important to parse out. The First Amendment contains a lot of freedoms, guaranteed freedoms. And there's a reason it's the first one, right? Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom of association. And when you're talking about a church service, you have the integration of all three of those things happening. Freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion. Now there are limits. When we have advocated for religious freedom now for decades, we. There's always stories that come up and we say there are limits to religious freedom. My religious freedom does not allow me to practice child sacrifice. Why? Because that interferes somebody else's, you know, right to life, which is prior. The right to life is prior to the First Amendment. And then you also have then limits of speech, right? The famous line, you can't, you know, cry out fire in a crowded theater wrongly. Right. Because that is itself a violation of speech by saying that you're now actually violating others rights. Obviously we can throw in things like the Face act, which is being, you know, brought up here in terms of the protections that have been guaranteed and how those rights are protected, you know, to speech or whatever. And these, I think protesters clearly violated that. Some people were even invoking the Klan act, which has to do with intimidation. And that also was being brought in here. But our freedoms cannot overstep the bounds into someone else's, particularly when it comes to fear and intimidation. And so what happened there was just absolutely reprehensible there. And it needs to be protected by the state. And here's why. When you think about the shootings that have taken place in churches and houses of worship and religious bodies. And I'm talking about the Tree of Life Synagogue in New Jersey, I think. New Jersey, right. I think. And I'm talking about the Pennsylvania. Nashville. Oh, Pennsylvania, right. Sorry. Thanks. Good catch. The shooting in Nashville and the shooting in Minnesota. And then if this goes unaddressed now, we have systemic widespread intimidation of houses of worship and people going to those houses of worship to express their First Amendment rights. The government has to protect that. And if the government doesn't protect that, then the government is allowing the erosion of that kind of First Amendment freedom at an alarming place. In the same way of, you know, for an example, an employer that tries to force their viewpoint on a moral issue like same sex marriage or LGBTQ things on an employee. Right. Those protections have been laid out like that you can't violate. These are sacred rights in the American context. And I think they're sacred and they should be sacred. Right? That's the next question is if they are sacred. Says who? Well, I think the image of God says that. I think the way the Bible describes kind of creatures humans are, where our rights are fundamentally given to us by God. And the state's job is not to create those rights because it can't, or to take away those rights because they shouldn't, but to protect those rights because we want our government to align with reality, not, not, not align with, with reality. And I think that's what's at sake here. And it's, it's a, it's, it's a really significant thing to watch how this plays out. We're going to see abuses, right? We know that because of the fall chapter, we're going to see abuses on all sides. How they're addressed by the state then actually tells us what the future is going to hold. And we've done a lot to protect freedom of religion in America. One things I was really thankful for learning about the story of this pastor in South Korea and how the government's really trying to intimidate religious leaders to stay out of the public square with their treatment of Pastor Son. One of the things we talked about, the First Amendment, I talked about the court's protection of the First Amendment and how states have tried to punish people and violate the First Amendment. And yes, I'm looking at you, Colorado, but thankfully, eventually the Supreme Court at least has, has made those limits and those lines really, you know, clear. And we need that because between, even between whatever the event happens. Think about Jack Phillips. And 13 years later, when the Supreme Court, you know, or when the courts finally settled this out, there's a whole lot of punishment that happens in the process. So we have the danger of where this is headed ultimately and we have the, the, the trampling of freedoms in the meantime until the things are settled out. And that's why it's important for this, this is the role of the government. This is the role of the state to protect these rights.

[Maria Baer]

Well done. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with more breakpoint this week.

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[Maria Baer]

We'Re back on Breakpoint this week. John, I had to chuckle because the oral arguments at the Supreme Court that occurred while you were away brought back memories for me. I don't know if you remember this, but when the Dobbs decision came down, I was traveling. Do you remember that? And then I came back. So you recorded the podcast with a guest host. And I came back and was like, did anything happen while I was away? And then you went away and we heard the oral arguments before the Supreme Court in the case of whether boys should be allowed in girls sports. So I think whenever we want some major cultural movement to happen, one or both of us should just take a vacation somewhere, apparently, is what I'm learning from this. But let's talk about the so the oral arguments were heard last week. We probably won't get a decision until sometime in the summer. We don't need to sort of predict what's going to happen there. But there was a lot to glean from this argument, you know. So this is the case of There's a West Virginia and Idaho have passed laws that have now been challenged in court that say boys can't compete in girls sports. They're being challenged by a young boy who wants to play on a girl's team. And it came before the Supreme Court. If most people who are paying attention are like me, they were frustrated yet again, although I respect the process, but frustrated again by the fact that the litigation is not necessarily of the question what is a boy? Although Justice Alito did bring that up. And that was a fascinating exchange because if you're going to make an equal protection claim here, you're going to have to define that eventually. But it was a more technical question of title 9 and how can this be enforced? Where I want to start with you on this is several people noticed that Justice Coney Barrett and I think Justice Kavanaugh as well. Most if not all of the justices allowed the characterization of so called trans boys and trans girls. And then they used that in their questioning back of the people arguing these cases. And I, some people, I mean, I felt frustrated by that. Personally. I tend to have a sort of mythologized view of the Supreme Court justices that I hope is not. I don't want to. Please don't shatter my illusions. I am always like, well, they're 10 steps ahead of me, so they must know what they're doing. But other people were, I think, very understandably frustrated that they kind of gave up the goat on that and just allowed that to move forward. Do you think that was significant?

[John Stonestreet]

I don't think it's going to determine the outcome. I mean, I think we're going to have a pretty overwhelming defense of Idaho and West Virginia's rights to keep boys out of girls sports. And I think that was probably the most powerful part of the arguments in my mind is when that little point was clarified. It's like we're not discriminating against people who are transgender or claim to be transgender, who claim a particular gender identity from participating. We're discriminating conversation we're having is boys and girls sports, right? None of, none of the women that play basketball right now at the college level or the WNBA who identify as male or non binary or whatever, and there are a lot of them who are in lesbian relationships and whatever have some sort of, you know, understanding of their own sense of masculinity. None of them are trying to make the NBA, because that's an absurd thing on its face. And you don't have, you know, girls at the high school level invading boy sports. This, this is really about biological sex. And I thought that's was a very telling part of the way the arguments went. And also just that was Very clearly stated. I do think, though, you know, look, there's still a level of intimidation. And I remember Chuck Colson often said that Supreme Court justices still read the newspaper too, and they care about what people think about them. And it is a form of gaslighting, maybe the most pronounced form of gaslighting in our lifetimes where you refuse so called pronoun hospitality. And it's, it's like an outrage. Like you have, you know, you know, used a racial slur or whatever and like somebody completely made up these rules and they're, that they're not real rules, but if you violate their rules, then it's like, and I, and I do think that there's a sense, maybe some of them have been ideologically convinced that that's the right thing to do, that's the kind and charitable thing to do. I think there are people who don't agree with it, but they're willing to go along with the pronoun game and the identification game. But I think it's a real mistake because we have a breakpoint commentary. Either that came out this week or next week. I'm all jet lags. I don't remember when it's going to come out. But it's importance of words and reality, right? So postmodern say that words create reality. Christians say that words create reality, but not our words. God's words created reality. And so the, the relationship between our language and our language is to image God, just like all of our humanness is to image God. So how we use language should match reality and we shouldn't lie. We should tell the truth. And you know, there's a million other things to say there. So I don't think it's significant in terms of how the justices are going to decide, but I do think it's significant for a culture. And I think it's significant that we not feel like, you know, we've broken some set of rules because, you know, this whole thing has been a language game. I want to mention two things. Number one, there was a very helpful and thorough article in First Things this week. In the essay, really by Scott, I don't know how you pronounce his last name. Scott Yener, Y E N O R called the Rise and Fall of Gay activism. So over 10, 13, 12, 13 years ago, Sean McDowell and I wrote a book on the topic of same sex marriage. And in it we trace some of the gay rights movement. And what Yenner does is take it back even further than we did. It's a, it's a it's a more scholarly our our book was way more populous. But he goes back earlier and then he also brings it up to, to date and he talks about the debates and switches that happened all the way throughout this movement. You know, the born this way conversation. Right. Which is no longer part of it because it can't be right and all of that. And I would recommend this, this essay as something that really will explain how we got here. Osgona says and a couple of his books that Christians really need to know about the history of ideas. Where do ideas come from? We know ideas have consequences. They also have histories. And to know the, you know, why some ideas became really sticky at certain times and places. This is a wonderful, wonderful help. The other thing I want to say is, is that there are still people that are just wrong on this and on the issue of and it but it sounds so weird, right? This week, for example, also when Josh Hawley in a Senate hearing grilled medical doctor who, you know, begins her whole posturing in front of the Senate hearing by saying we need to trust the science. We need to be science focused people. And then he asked, can men get pregnant? And she won't answer it.

[Maria Baer]

She said, yes or no questions are not helpful. As which I he was a he was it was a master class on the part of Josh Hawley. But I do wish he had followed up to that and said, then what is science after? Like, if you're talking about science and evidence, are you not after finding yes and no?

[John Stonestreet]

Yeah. Well, listen, Bill Kristol, you know, longtime political commentator, one of the most prominent never Trumpers this week on Twitter, came out and said, I've known men are on X. I've known men that became women. And you're just like, you don't know any man that's ever become a woman. You know men who dress like women, you know men who have done kind of body mutilation to appear more like women. You don't know a single man that's ever become a woman. No one does. But part of the bait and switch is he was responding to another post on X in which someone was saying this whole trans conversation is just a political game because who cares In a free society, this post said adults should be able to do whatever they want. Okay, great, let's go back and deal with this one. Because this was maybe even a worse post than Bill Kristol's response, which is, no, we have laws. No one thinks that in a free society adults can do whatever. There are limits to Our freedom. If there are not limits to our freedom, then we become anarchists. Secondly, don't bait and switch me now and say we're not talking about kids, we're talking about drag queen story hours. We're talking about boys and girls locker rooms. We're talking about, you know, the student in Loudoun county who was 16 years old and wore a skirt and went into a girl's restroom and assaulted students there, then got transferred to another school where he did it again. So, you know, that's why I'm telling you, read this article at this essay at first things, because there's a history of how we got here and how we got to the point where suddenly we're supposed to know this kind of complete set of rules that are made up out of nowhere. And a big part of the making up of those rules is the making up of language. You know, either rule, you have to use this when someone asks you to, or you know, the just the invention of words out of thin air, like cisgender or something like that. And it's part of discernment. It shows if we can't discern language and discern words, we're going to have a hard time discerning behaviors. And I think Crystal, this week was case in point.

[Maria Baer]

There was also a moment in the oral arguments in which the lawyer for the other side said that this young boy who wanted to play on the girls team because he had been taking estrogen went through a full female puberty. And that just flew out of his mouth and there was no challenge to it. And again, I understand there's so much to talk about and these justices have to narrow it on so granular a legal argument, but it was like, I mean, no. And that is actually material to this conversation, right. So this past week my husband was invited, invited to speak at a metropolitan organization in Cleveland in Ohio. And this is one of the oldest. I mean, this thing opened like in 1908. A couple of sitting presidents have spoken there. Reagan, Obama, fdr. This is a big honor that he was invited to speak there. And there have been protests about Aaron being invited for the past month. And there was a big protest that day. People threw paint on the building. They had to lower the capacity in the room for security concerns and all this kind of stuff. And the thing that got the biggest angry response that Aaron said during his talk was when he brought up the fact that there are gender clinics in Ohio that are cutting off breasts of 16 year old girls. He said that and he was building an argument for why it's important that we talk about these things. He and I prayed and talked the whole drive up there about how do we share the gospel, how do we respect people? And this was not even on our radar that this would be challenged. And the room erupted. Even the moderator, who's been very kind, was like, now, hold on. And Aaron stopped and was like, hang on, do you guys not think that's happening? Because I thought the argument was, that's good, and we need that. But it's definitely. I mean, we have insurance claims data. We have the children's hospitals under oath saying they do it like we have actual children. We have Chloe Cole. We have people who've had it done to them. And it was a very, very surreal moment for us because, you know, later I was talking to a friend who does not really follow politics very much. She's a friend from church, and she asked me, maria, is there anybody who actually truly believes that men can become women? And I told her, I increasingly, I don't think so, except for children. Because this is what happens when people play with language in the way you're talking about, John, is that, you know, more vulnerable people, including young children, will take them at their word. This. This whole game is a bunch of adults playing with words because they're trying to signal that they're a certain type of person. They want to follow whatever the new rules are. And kids are taking them at their word. That's why this is so dangerous.

[John Stonestreet]

Yeah, I don't know that it's just kids. I think there are people who really believe it. I remember when I first saw it, it was so stunning. It was on a Facebook post Probably 15 years ago, maybe 12 years ago, somebody got on and called me hateful for something and basically, oh, and said, you're ignorant. Don't you know that when men take hormone therapy, they become women? And just said it like, you know, like this is factual and the science is settled. And it was the first time anyone had ever said that like that. And you kind of think, do you maybe. Maybe there is something here that's really believed. I agree with the kid, your kid comment completely that, yeah, kids, kids, sure. Certainly kids believe it.

[Maria Baer]

I don't think the rubber meets the road very often for people who aren't, like, doctors or parents of children who are struggling, like, so that. That doctor that Josh Hawley was interviewing, I can guarantee you. So when my Appendix ruptured, I'm 20 years old, I go into the hospital, they will not give me anything until they do A pregnancy test, okay. And that, that's. They have to do that because whatever they give me or do could endanger the life of a baby if I was pregnant. If a 20 year old girl goes into any emergency room and her appendix has retro and she says, don't worry, I'm a man. There is not a single doctor in the United States of America that's not still gonna do a pregnancy test. That's what I mean. Like they know, they obviously know that this young girl could say, well I am a man. That therefore I am a man. Because I said I was a man and I took testosterone for a while, whatever. I just. There's nobody, there's nobody.

[John Stonestreet]

I think what's happening is a different understanding of reality and what I mean by that. And I do think that there are convinced. So there was a couple that I know who had this conversation about their own child who was having a bout of gender dysphoria, went in, was sent to and had to meet with a doctor. And the doctor basically said, hopefully within 10 years, I want you think about all the assumptions loaded in this comment. He said, hopefully within 10 years kids will be able to change who they are like they change their clothes. So what's embedded in this, first of all is that the ability to get pregnant or not get pregnant is not the definition of man and woman. Also, not just that sex and gender are separable, but that sex is as pliable as gender, which is part of where this has gone. And, and I think this is huge, that science is not about understanding nature and responding to it, but that science fundamentally is about the ability to control nature. And this is something that Lewis wrote about in Abolition of Man. This is something that I think Craig Gay talks about in the Way of the Modern World, a book that you and I have talked about here a lot. That, that there is really, if you take out the creator, as Nietzsche says, and I'll paraphrase him, everybody gets a promotion now for him it was about power in a scientific era, it's about control to make the world what we want. I am increasingly convinced that Christian worldview and our understanding of the world fundamentally right now in this moment comes down to how much of the world is a creation and how much of the world is a construct. Being able to tell the difference between gravity and speed limits. We talk about that often, like with, with morality and marriage. But I'm telling you right now you have a group of people absolutely convinced that reality is a speed limit. Reality is a social construct and the elements of reality are. And I don't want to, I don't want to under sell that, that self deception because I think that's what Romans 1 talks about, that when you lose sight of God, you, you lose touch with reality and you have a fantasy of worshiping the creation over the creator. And Jack Olson used to say there's no limit to the human capacity for self justification, self delusion and self rationalization. And I think we have seen that. I mean, look, I, this has something to do with the history of ideas. For some of us. It's still unbelievable, but it's really believable for a lot of people. Now do they still have to, you know, you might think gravity is a social construct, but you still have to live by it. Right? So to your point, there's inconsistency, no question. Like it doesn't make any sense. It's absurd. And that's the definition of absurdity. Right. So, but I think I don't want to downplay the human capacity for self rationalization.

[Maria Baer]

Oh gosh, well, now I'm just going to pray against that for myself because obviously we're capable of it too.

[John Stonestreet]

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[Maria Baer]

Don. There's a couple other quick headlines I want to hit quickly with you. The first is the new report from Open Doors. They do this every year about Christian persecution. This is their World Watch report. And unfortunately, Christian persecution is on the rise. You just saw some of this in South Korea.

[John Stonestreet]

Well, yeah. And what you have is the erosion of really well protected freedoms like in some nations that are, you know, becoming areas of concern. I think that's where I would put that category. I just, you know, the contrast between South Korea and North Korea, which I was able to kind of see at a level I'd never seen before. It just, you kind of realize, oh man, what a loss, you know, this would be if it really indeed goes that far, and hopefully it won't. And but we, you know, we've talked about Nigeria, we've talked about Islam. What do you see in the world watch list number one? A, it's out again. So Christians need to know so we can pray for our brothers and sisters. B, it's always at the hands of secularist, atheistic, consciously atheistic governments, mostly, you know, tyrannical communist kind of frameworks or Islam. And it kind of underscores the fact worldview matters not just for individuals but for civilizations.

[Maria Baer]

50 countries are ranked with a record high level of discrimination, and they're estimating 388 million Christians are facing high levels of persecution, which is an increase of over 8 million from the year before. So absolutely need to be praying for our brothers and sisters. Let's talk about another report looking at population in the United States. According to demographers, US deaths are going to outpace births 10 years faster than originally thought. So the 2027 CBO report believes that in 2028 or 2029, the amount of deaths in the US will outpace births. Is this a worldview question?

[John Stonestreet]

Well, yeah. I mean, we've hit this so many times. The fertility rate tells you a lot about the worldview of a nation, particularly whether it's sensate or ideational. Those are categories from the sociologist Piturim Sorokin, that there are societies that live for ideals, aspirations, and then there are societies that live for immediate gratification, just like there are individuals. Right. And you can, you know, if you, if you meet someone who only lives for pleasure, they're probably not a good person. If you meet someone who's serious about building for the future and taking care of others, particularly their kids and grandkids, they probably are a good person. And that is the distinction between societies. The birth rate problem is an epidemic across the developed world. This is something that we're seeing in South Korea. So when we talk about a privatized faith, one of the consequences of a privatized faith is the unwillingness to talk about creation and to talk about reproductive ethics and to talk about the inherent fundamental connection between sex, marriage and babies. And so South Korea has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world, and it's going to wreak havoc. And a related story, and I think this is probably where you were going next. The Heritage foundation released a report about policy recommendations that could improve marriage. And I do recommend this as reading as well this week. It was very helpful I know many of the individuals that were behind it. They're brilliant and they're tapping into something, which is that marriage and marriage rates tell you something about the worldview of a society. Right. First of all, are men domesticated? Men need to be domesticated because men tend to be idiots, especially if they're fallen. And when fewer men get married and fewer women get married, then that affects the kind of people that they are, but it also affects the fertility rate. So one of the things that I know is behind the authors is that the higher the marriage rate, the higher the fertility rate. As we've seen the fertility rate drop across the western world, we've also seen the marriage rate drop across the western world, and it's correlated. This is the fourth policy recommendation that I would make, although I'm not sure the government can do it, is that we have to encourage religiosity because the less religious you are, the less likely you are to have babies, because the less likely you are to have to get married. So religious institutions in this time and place, churches, Christian colleges, we need to encourage marriage. We need to talk about the good of marriage. I had a conversation right before Christmas. It came out that last week with Dr. Al Mohler of Southern Seminary in his library podcast. And so many of the things we came back to was this. How do we help young people understand marriage? Take seriously the challenge of marriage. And this is something that we believe because we're Genesis 1 and 2 people.

[Maria Baer]

Yeah. I appreciate the Heritage report. And as much as it is, it acknowledges that that probably most of the challenges facing us culturally could be improved, at least by re catechizing young people towards marriage and towards fidelity in marriage and. And childbearing and all of that. I'm just more and more skeptical that the government really has a role to play or that they can manage it. Now, a lot of their report, they.

[John Stonestreet]

Can get out of the way.

[Maria Baer]

Okay. But I mean, so. Right. A lot of their report does focus on things like welfare reform, which I agree, like in my state. Right. There is penalties to it. If you have two individ who are receiving SNAP benefits and whatever else, and then they get married, their benefits go down. That's silly. That should be reformed. I just don't think that more and more, especially above the poverty rate, people don't make life decisions like whether to get married or whether to have children based on financial concerns. We're just not as rational about this as we think we are. And to that end, I'm just not sure that there's much. I mean, all of these conversations when we're talking about policy always come back to things like paid parental leave or universal childcare, a child tax credit. And certainly things can. The law can be a teacher, it can send signals, it can show things we value and things we want to disincentivize and it can change culture somewhat from that direction. But I'm just not sure this can happen any other way than from the bottom up. Which is why I agree with you that religiosity is really important. We have to model healthy and life giving marriage for younger people and encourage them towards it on literally like a guerrilla marketing individual to individual basis. I think.

[John Stonestreet]

Well, I don't want to disagree at all with that because yes, we need the church to talk more about it. We need it to become more multi generational and local. Whether the state plays a paternalistic role and whether the state does things that only fathers and only husbands and only mothers and only wives can do makes a big difference. It's almost like maybe the state can't really do so much to promote marriage, but it can do a lot of things to discourage it and people aren't rational about it. But norms matter. And paternalistic societies where the state steps over this is Kirion to the max. Right. That there's a. That each of these spheres operate individually and when one of the spheres bleeds into the other, that's where social breakdown happens. And I think that there are a lot of ways that the state can get in the way of marriage. And it has. And I tell you, I remember Pastor Chris Brooks of Woodside Bible Church in Detroit came and spoke at our conference years ago. Longtime friend, host of the Quip show on Moody Radio at the time, I think it was during the Obama presidency. And he mentioned in all the ways that Obama had positioned himself to look like the father and why that was.

[Maria Baer]

Bad for the black people, like policy wise.

[John Stonestreet]

And it was a profound observation in a lot of ways, but yes. And of course he had to do it with the arm of the state, not just as a name and a face. And it was a profound observation. So I don't want to downplay that. That's all.

[Maria Baer]

Yeah, I think you're right. Well, I'm grateful for the Heritage Foundation. I'm grateful for people like the Institute for Family Studies that are really putting minds and time into looking at ways that the government can at least help or get out of the way. Because this is going to be an increasingly important issue. Okay, John, let's talk about some questions that we've received from listeners lately. I'm going to read this one about the Bible and the trustworthiness of it. I'm not sure how women are expected to believe a Bible written by men, translated by men, and used by men. If everyone's created in God's image, that should include women. But traditional religion strives to maintain the past, which limits women's rights, voices and contributions. You can believe in God, yet not organized religion. What do you think?

[John Stonestreet]

You can believe in God and yet not organized religion? Of course, but believing in God is not the point. The devils believe in God is what you know scripture says. And you can believe in God wrongly. A.W. tozer called it the essence of idolatry is having wrong ideas about God, expecting God to be this or that or the other, which a lot of people do. And that only makes sense if your information about God is coming from yourself and is not actually being given to you by God himself. One of the most profound essential truths is that God has revealed himself. Now, if you don't believe God has revealed himself, then you have to admit that you're just making God up. You're not actually worshiping the God that exists. You're worshiping the God you wish exist or hope to exist or think exist or whatever. But there's no authority to your position. There's no information to your position. As to the point about the women piece, I mean, I think that's really unfortunate that someone has been convinced of this because there are so many wonderful historical looks at this from non believers, even about the. The way that Christianity has in its history elevated women at a point where literally no other force in human history even comes close. In every other society, the power, the inherent strength, the size difference, the power differential between men and women is used to abuse women and even to systematize this, to consider women property, to consider women dispensable, to use them for things like sexual pleasure or social status and nothing else. Christianity actually introduces this idea that humans are made in the image of God, male and female. Now, you might not believe that. And it sounded like when this was quoted, she was saying it kind of snarkily that if that were true, then the Bible would look like this. Okay, that's an interesting argument. If men and women are indeed created in the image of God, then we'd have books of the Bible written by women as well as by men. I don't maybe. Okay, fine. Let me just say the alternative. If women aren't made in the image of God, then you have no Grounds by which to argue for the equality of women to begin with. If women aren't made in the image of God, if there's not inherent value given, then the value has to be attained and men are stronger, period. And there's no rules that say other than man made laws which by the way will be made by men because they're the strongest, which says that men shouldn't abuse or mistreat women. That's why in the whole history of the world, the entire history of the world, there has been one singular source for the true equality of, of women with men. And it's been the Judeo Christian framework which assumes it teaches that God has revealed himself in this way. So I appreciate the question that, and you know, I think that's an interesting point that why wouldn't some books be written by women as well as men? But if you don't grant that humans are made in the image of God, if you don't, and that's a, that's an observation that doesn't come from nature, that doesn't come from, from just observation. It comes from Scripture. If you don't begin there, then you've got no case for women's equality to begin with.

[Maria Baer]

I mean, we're watching a violent uprising take place in Iran right now, led in some way by women. Because in just about every other structured society that is not influenced by the central truth claims of Christianity, you will get to a place of the subjugation of women. Either the subjugation, subjugation of them literally and physically or the devaluing of them as women other than Christianity. I mean, if you read Tom Holland, if nobody else, and see exactly what you said, that Christianity has fundamentally elevated the value of women in the eyes of the entire world. More and nothing else than any other system of thought. Yeah, exactly.

[John Stonestreet]

There's no other choice.

[Maria Baer]

Women, including the woman who wrote this question, you are smart enough and the God of the Bible and the God who created the universe is a, is available to you. You are just as smart as anybody else to determine whether the Bible is true. That's really the question that you need to answer. It's not do you like the Bible? But is it true? And you God will reveal himself to you if you want him to, whether you're a man or a woman. If you ask for him to do that, he will do that. So I would just encourage this listener to take that leap. Just ask and read it and decide for yourself. Okay, I'm going to read another question to you. John, you mentioned A book you wrote about same sex marriage. There was another book you wrote called A Practical Guide to Culture. And this listener, Patrick says he's been reading through that book. In chapter nine, you're talking about hookup culture, you point out that millennials are less likely to hook up than previous generations. That was written in 2017. Obviously we have a lot more data now. It's been several years, including data on the sexual behavior of Gen Z. Do you see any correlation with this? The, the lowering rates of hookup culture, let's call it, and the movement of teens simply being less social? Gene Twenge pointed out that Gen Z is having less sex. Yeah, go on.

[John Stonestreet]

It's a great question. And I co wrote this book with Brett Kunkel, and this is in the third part of the book, which are called Cultural Waves. We distinguish between undercurrents and waves. And I did the work on the undercurrents with his help, and he did the work on the waves with my help. And so this is primarily something he wrote. But the fact is, is we have seen this challenge. I remember talking to a Christian school headmaster and he's like, I wish my kids would date because they're not dating. So, you know, the hookup culture, which we all feared back in the 90s, has been replaced by the isolation and loneliness, you know, epidemic. And this is because of the increased use of technology. But I also don't want to think, I mean, sometimes we hear this, it's like, hey, good news, fewer teenagers are getting pregnant. Well, good. But that doesn't mean fewer teenagers are sexually broken. In other words, the, the, the, the, the self centered direction that human sexuality and how we teach human sexuality to young people has taken, you know, went from, you know, worrying about the hookup culture outside of marriage for Gen Xers and millennial, early millennials, to becoming kind of fully self centered when we had artificial sexuality or dehumanized sexuality. In other words, a group of young men who aren't getting girls pregnant in high school are not less sexually broken if instead they're incels and addicted to pornography and have a hatred towards women because they're themselves? Well, yeah, that, sorry, that's a great point. It's always both, right? There's a loneliness, an inability to look anybody, you know, in the, I have a conversation, ask somebody on a date, you know, honor women and that sort of stuff. And I think that's what we're dealing with more than any others. And I think, you know, some of us have this concern, including Sherry Turkle. That when this sort of addiction to pornography then is added to artificial intelligence and robotics, you have a real crisis brewing, which is we may very well reach the point as a human civilization where our children will choose between real spouses and robots for their life companions. And if they have been cultivated to be selfish in their own relationships to begin with, think about the benefits of coming home to a robot that always looks the same, never ages, never gains weight, always is sympathetic to you and says, hey, honey, how was your day? But you never actually have to listen to somebody else complain about their day. I mean, it's like the perfect. It's like the perfect spouse for a group of people who have been malformed, you know, into thinking that relationships and sexuality are always on our terms for our purposes, and never for the good of the other. So I do think that this is a. There's a degree of. Of catechism that is happening to young people. And it's just interesting because, you know, I guess I'm old enough now that I remember we were, you know, talking about the hookup culture, and we were wrestling with, you know, the. The ideas of I kiss dating goodbye. And I just cannot tell you the number of, you know, Christian leaders that are like, we need these kids to kiss dating hello again. You know, call it courting, dating, or whatever, but we need them. You know, they're. They're not. They're not doing it. And so, you know, that also leads to, you know, on average, delayed marriages, which lowers the fertility rate. I mean, this is just a perfect storm with a string of consequences that are remarkable. And I'm not even sure we know all the consequences yet. So I. I think that it's a great question, and I think. Yes, and by the way, we're working on a revision of that book now, and that'll be one of the areas that we have to update. I mean, you still want people to be sexually pure, but sexually pure today is not a reaction to the hookup culture. Sexually pure today is a reaction primarily to artificial, dehumanized sexuality. And the dehumanization is a big undercurrent that we did talk about there. This is one of the waves that has kind of broken differently in the years to come. So. What a great question. And I know this is actually a Colson fellow who asked this, and I appreciated that, you know, they're trying to address this in the context. I think. I think this was a church context. He's trying to address it in the context of a church. So really, really good stuff.

[Maria Baer]

Well, John, that's going to do it for the program today. You mentioned we'll just say by way of recommendation, let's recommend the Practical Guide to Culture by you and Brett Kunkel. And then also you mentioned the Rise and Fall of Gay activism, that piece in First Things so highly recommend people check that out as well. Otherwise, we'll see you all back here next week. From the Coulson center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer alongside John Stonestreet. God bless.