← Brew City Church
Brew City Church
Q & R | Holy Disruption
00:52:33
August 2, 2026 | Brew City Church | Randy Knie & Shelly Schmor
Loading summary
Transcript41 lines
- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the Brew City Church Podcast. We are a Christian church following in the way of Jesus and located in the heart of downtown Milwaukee. We're glad you've joined us and we hope you enjoy this week's message. What a morning of praise and worship already this morning. I hope that that's something that has fed your soul. I have a couple of announcements for you before we get into our time of Q and A and all or Q and R ra. And just a reminder, there are the numbers. So the to the number 22333 that goes in the line where your friend's name would go. And then in the text message body, you typed CoolOcean322 a space. And then your question, and those will come to my computer then and we can try and figure some of those things out together. All right, well, just to let you know, the kids are already gone, but we need help in the kids area. Our kids area is just a little short on some people and that we need is helpers upstairs for our younger elementary age. And so this is a position of not needing to do the planning of the lesson and the gathering of all the things, but to just be there to help, to help make sure that they have snacks and that if they need to get to the restroom and all the things that kids need. So if you are willing to help in that way, we would love it if you would sign up. There's a QR code. It offers all the other areas that you could help as well. But specifically, we're looking for helpers upstairs in our elementary age group. And then if you are interested in being baptized, we've been talking about this now for a little bit, announcing it. We're only going to announce it one more week because then it'll be one week and then the actual baptism day. So if you are interested, we would love to chat with you a little bit about that and let you know. So if you could just scan that QR code, put your name in there, one of our elders or one of us as pastors will get in touch with you and, and just meet with you for just a short moment to just talk through a little bit about what baptism is. And then we'd love to have that experience of baptizing you on August 23rd before our church picnic. And so if that's something that's of interest to you, please take the time today to scan that QR code and get signed up. And then, as I just said, it'll be right before our church picnic day. This is our big church picnic bash. We've done a couple smaller picnics this summer, but this one is a big potluck. We'll be meeting down at McKinley Marina area in the grassy area just across from the colectivo on the lakefront. That's probably a good reference point. Everybody knows we'll just kind of diagonally from that is where we'll be meeting, and we'll just be having a time to hang out together, have a good meal. Everybody can bring something, and we'll just share and have that. There's a QR code. If you could sign up and just let us know you're coming and what you might be bringing. That's just helpful in the planning. So mark your calendars. August 23rd, right after the morning service, we'll have baptism and then our picnic. And then we just want to say again, thank you so much for your generous living and your generous giving. We couldn't do the things that we do around here without your support, without your help. And we honestly could use your help right now. We don't talk about money often around here, but we are in a place in the year where we kind of are looking at our budget for next year. And anything that you can do to give to help, if you call this place your home would be really helpful. There's ways to give there right on the screen.
- [03:44]
B
Good morning, friends. Good morning. So if you're new here, if you're. This is your first time at Bruce City Church. First of all, welcome. So glad you're here. And this is the time where we usually do a sermon, as Forrest said, where I'm more often than not the guy that gives the sermon as well at this time. But this morning we're doing something that we do fairly regularly several times throughout the year, which is a Q and R, which is a time for you to text in your questions anonymously. So if you're one of those who like when I do the asking people asking the church questions and you're like, that's scary. This is your moment because this is completely anonymous. You don't have to let us know who you are or anything like that. Text in that question. Can we get that leave back on the screens? So where you text to, instead of putting your friend or your family name in there, you put 22333. And then in the body of the text, CoolOcean 322 Space. And then ask your question, pretend you're tweeting, leave it about 150 or 60 characters. And we'll get the whole question. And here's the kind of questions we're looking for. And that is any question you have around the things of church and the scriptures and this faith journey. If you're new here and you don't know what we've been talking about in the Book of Acts, I want to let you know that any question you have is fair to ask here. I can't guarantee you it's going to get asked depending on the amount of questions we have. But I just want to let you know that maybe you have that there's been that question in the back of your mind that you've been wrestling with in regards to God or Jesus or the church or spirituality that you just for years have been scared to ask. I want to encourage you to let you know that you have entered a space where it's safe to ask those questions. So go ahead and ask because we'd love to talk about space with those things. And also if you've been here, let me just remind you of what the Book of Acts has looked like. Let's see if I can do like a six minute kind of review on our chapters in the Book of Acts. First, in Acts, chapter one, if you remember, the disciples and Jesus are hanging out and by Jesus, I mean the resurrected, risen Jesus. And they're getting excited when Jesus is talking about what's to come. And they say, hey, is this when you're gonna kind of announce the kingdom and take over and the kingdom of God is going to reign on earth in Jerusalem, as we all thought, a political kingdom. And Jesus like, no, no, no, no, sorry, we people were asking those questions 2,000 years ago, just like they're asking those questions today. Is the right political candidate going to usher in the kingdom of God? And Jesus is like, you don't get it, but you will when the Holy Spirit baptizes you. And in Acts 2, we see the Holy Spirit kind of overwhelm the disciples in this way that kind of almost reverses the Tower of Babel, right? And back in Genesis, in the very beginning of the story, there's this thing that happens when humanity is trying to ascend to God and God confuses them. Now all of a sudden, God uses language to bring folks together and to show the communion and the unity that's happening now because of Jesus in the Holy Spirit. Then as we move into Acts 3, we see Peter and John healing a lame beggar in the temple area and causing a commotion, showing and dis that this kingdom that Jesus came to bring brings Healing to planet Earth. And then in Acts 4, they're asked to give an account before the authorities of their day. Kind of the Congress and the politicians, but also the religious gatekeepers. And Peter says this thing that I still find so challenging. He's standing before the authorities of his day. He says, you be the judge. Do you remember this? Is it better for us to listen to God? You. As Peter's being held to an account, is it my job to listen to God or to you? And as we live in this day and age, I think that's a really good question for us to wrestle with. Then Acts 5 goes in and tells this wild story of this couple named Ananias and Sapphira. And we've had this. Some of us have wrestled with that text for a long, long time. And still many of us do. And I told you that I don't think God kills people. And I still stand by that. And we're gonna. Acts 12, if you jump forward, Herod dies. King Herod, really kind of bad person. And the Bible says that God killed him as well. And I don't believe that God kills people. So you might have questions about that. Why do I think that? Or where does that come from? And then in Acts 6, we see the. The Hellenistic widows, the Greek widows, kind of being passed over or even kind of having food withheld from them, kind of starving, kind of dehumanizing them. Because you see this tension arising in the church between Greek and Gentile people and Jewish people. They couldn't stand one another. And the reality is that in Jesus, the Spirit is bringing people together who would never, ever think about being together. And that's one of the most beautiful things about the kingdom of God, because that's still happening today. People that religious people would never think are included in the kingdom. And people who would say things like, I can't enter a church. I'm gonna probably start on fire. Come together in Jesus, right? Or I have never been welcome in the church. I've never felt like I'm the kind of person who can show up without being judged immediately. Right? These conversations were happening in this time as well, in the vision. The idea is that Jesus is bringing all people together. This is the story of the Book of Acts. And then we see this diaspora start the scattering of the church because of the persecution. But what happens in that is that we get even a more vivid picture about how Jesus is bringing all people together. We get this story of Philip in the Ethiopian Eunuch, a person no one would ever imagine would Step foot in a church, would step foot into the kingdom of God is now welcome. And the Spirit's bringing leaders in the church to people that are excluded, have been excluded from this religious tradition. Do you see the revolting, scandalous, beautiful thing that's happening in the Book of acts? In Acts 9, Paul is converted. This guy that you would never imagine would be part of the church, who was persecuting the church, is now helping to lead the church. And. And then Acts 10 and 11, we get this crazy story of God bringing Gentiles and Jewish people together in Jesus. And then Peter is arrested and delivered and Herod dies. And we get this reminder that we should never be surprised when political leaders try to use and manipulate the people of God for their own political power. We should never be surprised by that, but we should always know that God takes the. That stuff really seriously. This is Acts 12, Acts 13 and 14. We get the first and the beginning of missionary journeys, which we're going to get lots of in the second half of the Book of Acts. And then we came to Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council, where the leaders of the church are trying to figure out what do we do with this movement of inclusion that the Holy Spirit has obviously given birth to. It's complicated stuff. It's scandalous stuff, but it's beautiful stuff because this is what happens when Jesus brings about his kingdom on planet Earth. Shelley, do we have a few questions? We do. All right, so let's get into our questions that you guys have for us. And I want to encourage you as. As we talk through questions and give our responses and all that stuff. Please continue sending in questions. Just this time is as good as your questions are.
- [11:35]
A
Okay. Yeah, we have a few. I think this is a good one to start, just in light of our announcements that we just made, especially the one concerning baptism. And the question is just how do you know when your kid is ready for baptism? Maybe they're thinking about it for their children rather than themselves. So can you just maybe address baptism when you know they're ready, when the kids are ready, that kind of thing?
- [11:57]
B
Yes. First of all, that's something that I'll encourage you that, like your discernment as a parent weighs more heavily than anything that I have to say. I want to tell you, because you know your kids and I don't, and you know where they are and I don't exactly. But here's. I can just tell you, I'm a parent. I have four kids. Three of them are sitting right over there, and a couple Years ago, all four of my kids decided to get baptized on the same day. It was an incredible moment for me and my wife and for them, I hope. But the reason that we baptized them is because they just clearly told us, I love Jesus, and I want to walk with Jesus, and I want to tell everyone I love Jesus. I remember in talking to each of my kids, I went up to my youngest, Reese. There he is. Yep. Little cutie in the middle. And I remember, sorry, I live to embarrass my kids. Here we are. Sometimes I do it purposely, sometimes accidentally. This was the former. I remember asking Reese, why do you want to get baptized? And he just said, I love Jesus. Why wouldn't I want to get baptized? And I said, that is so good enough for me. So I just want to encourage you that part of this. This is a beautiful milestone moment with you and your kids, and whether they're ready for it or not. But if they're saying, yeah, I want to get baptized, I want to say you along with Philip or the Ethiopian eunuch who can stand in my way. Right. You got any thoughts, Shelley?
- [13:36]
A
No. That was very good. Same way I handled it with my son. When he was ready, he was ready, and he just said, I want to do this. And so who was I to stand in the way?
- [13:45]
B
And I had the privilege of baptizing him. That was beautiful. Yep. What have we got next?
- [13:50]
A
Okay, well, there's a question that the Book of Acts is a lot about the church. And the question kind of is, so how do I know where to go to church? But I want to combine it with another one that also talks about how do I handle the shame and judgment for my strict Catholic family about my faith journey? So can you speak to that? Like, how do we handle the shame and judgment that might come as we seek to find a church that really feeds who we are and as we consider the things that we're learning in Acts.
- [14:19]
B
Okay. I. I think for the second question in particular, how do I. How do I handle the shame and judgment? And you can put. It's kind of like, insert your former tradition here, whether it's Catholicism. There's like, if you're Catholic, you know about Catholic guilt. Right. Or former Catholic, but insert Lutheran. Like, that's me. I grew up with a Lutheran dad and a Baptist mom, but I would kind of more identify as Lutheran in my upbringing. Lutheran guilt is man. That's a thing. That's real lcms for me. I don't know about you. What's your brand? But if you Know, you know, by the way, whether it's Baptist or evangelical or charismatic or assemblies, you have God or no church, whatever, we bring that baggage. And for some of it, that those words like shame and guilt and judgment and condemnation comes up. And that's why I love being in the Book of Acts, because that same exact story of people who grew up in a religious tradition and are now having to deal with shame and guilt and just the lack of clarity and wanting to know how this, all this new paradigm in Jesus following the spirit of God works with all the stuff that I was told when I was younger about what God's like and how to interpret the Scriptures and how we use these stories to inform and shape our lives. Are you with me? They've been. People have been asking them, like you and me, for a couple thousand years. It gives me great comfort to know that. And it's also why we are open to have center ourselves around this table each and every week, because we are reminded each and every week that maybe you're reminded when you walk through these doors of that shame and guilt that feels like it's on you, but I hope that you feel like it gets all wiped off of you as we approach Christ's table. Because that's the reminder every week, every single week that we're here that you are accepted, you are loved, you are included exactly as you are. That Jesus in his life, death and resurrection is kind of calling that pain and that rejection, that shame and that isolation that maybe you feel that's really present right now because of the way your family's treating you or what they're telling you, or you've kind of been cut off from a former church, all that stuff. This is where we find welcome and in this space together. And that's the first question, then gets to it as well. I hope that you are part of a church where you're loved and welcomed for who you are as you are right now. And I hope you are part of a church that is walking. Even though you're loved and included and welcomed as you are right now, that church is still walking towards Jesus all the time for more transformation and more wholeness and more healing and more life. Go to a church where you find healing and life and transformation in Jesus, whether that's here somewhere else. Go to a church where you see Jesus being preached and see Jesus being preached in bold, fresh, unafraid ways. Right? Go to a church, be part of a church where you see Jesus being manifested in the midst and where you're challenged and drawn and invited into life in Jesus in deeper ways, whether that's here or anywhere else. I want to say, but make Jesus the center of that and let's be done with the shame and guilt.
- [18:00]
A
Yeah. And I just would add to that, that shame and guilt doesn't mean, like when we're challenged, that we don't accept any challenge either. That there has to be that balance in our lives that we're willing to say, like, yeah, I need to address some things and I need to do some things. But when it's heaped on with shame and guilt, that's where it's unhealthy. And so looking for a church, I'm not saying look for a church, and I don't think Randy is either of you know, that you just feel comfortable in which, though that is important. But also when I am challenged, am I challenged because it's for my good and it's for my flourishing, or is it because I'm trying to be controlled by guilt and shame? And I think there's a difference. And that's where discernment comes in as well.
- [18:42]
B
That's right.
- [18:43]
A
So, all right, this one's a little interesting. Just with pronouns. Their pronouns are a thing right now, as far as in the world and in the spaces we find ourselves. Are the pronouns and references for God male or only when they're put into translations. So what's your take on God's pronouns? The he, the father, the son, all of the things, all of the references and pronouns that go with it.
- [19:10]
B
Okay. All right, here we go. Let's jump in. I know that this is a topic where some of us might eye roll. Right. We're having this discussion again. Or in church, really. I thought it could be done with this conversation. You know, we. I thought I could get a break or maybe some of us are like, this really matters to me because of what I've heard in the church before. And I want to encourage you whether. Whatever side of that you find yourself on, let's just listen and be open. Right. The. There's a couple of realities. Biblically, if we, if we speak about pronouns for God, one of the realities is that the Bible was written thousands of years, right. At the earliest or at the latest, like the. The most recent 2000ish years ago. And more than half of the Bible, more than that. Right. Thousands of years ago. In that world that the Bible was written in is a patriarchal world. There is no hiding that. There is no. Some people will say, get angry when I say that. But that's just, to me, it's undeniable history. The world was a patriarchal place. And that just means that the world was a place that privileged men and male, this male experience. And so you'll find tons and tons of male pronouns throughout the scriptures for God, Jesus. When Jesus prayed, he. He called God Father. And to me, that matters something that matters a bit. So I call God Father sometimes. But also what we kind of don't really know when you don't look under the hood and examine things and take words apart, is that the Hebrew word for spirit? Ruach is a feminine word. What do you do with that besides to say, I think it's really rich and beautiful. And I wish I would have been told this a long time ago that I believe the feminine, there's. There's an expression of femininity within the Godhead, that humanity has been created in the image of God. And that means both male and female have been created in the image of God. That there's masculine and feminine within who God is. Father, Son, and Spirit. I believe. And so if you'll. If you're around and you listen to my sermons, you'll. You'll notice that I go to pretty great lengths not to put pronouns on God. I call God God. I call God, not him, not her. I just say God and God's self because I think that helps me understand that God is not a gendered person like him. God doesn't have genitalia or lack. God is completely other. Like, when we imagine God, we imagine a gender. But I see God as the source of all of that richness and life and goodness and beauty. I think the Ethiopian eunuch, in their kind of gender fluidity was created in the image of God. I believe every single person was created in the image of God, no matter how they identify or kind of see themselves feel and how they're inhabiting their own body and experience. I believe all of us were created in the image of God, male and female. And that's why I work hard to kind of bring that gender neutral perspective to who God is.
- [22:40]
A
That's good. Yeah. And I would just add to that as a woman when I finally started studying scripture a little deeper and realized that there were feminine attributes to the Holy Spirit. And when I began to embrace the divine feminine in more ways, my whole walk with God, like blew up into beautiful places and blossomed into really beautiful places. And I was. There was a part of me that had to deal with kind of the anger of never being told that. But then Also of my own. Of like, well, you should have studied it too. So, I mean, there's a balance, but there's a beauty that comes when we can say like, God is so other, as you were saying, and so, so beautiful and so all encompassing that we try to like, put our best understanding onto it and think we got it figured out. And I'm not saying we shouldn't study things and study God, but I'm also saying that he's going to blow the boundaries off your set little boxes in many ways. And when he does, it's beautiful and it doesn't need to be scary. It can actually be a place of liberation and of moving forward and evolving in your faith and God. And that's something that really happened for me.
- [23:52]
B
And I mean, and as you're talking about God, you're saying he. And that's like. And I try not to do that. And that's they both fit and they both belong. And I want to also tell you, like, years ago, I would have seen this conversation as heretical or as a real problem. Now I'm not going to go to that church. But I want to also say now I kind of see it as like, how could it be any other way? If we're all created in the image of God, that means that there's masculine and feminine and who God is. And it's something that we need to sit with and grow in comfort of and actually let it fill us with worship and gratitude of who God is.
- [24:31]
A
Yeah. And to consider the spirit as female is a beautiful thing. When I think of verses like, as a hen gathers her chicks, as a mother comforts her child, like, those are beautiful, beautiful things that I think I was taught to be afraid of. And so like you said, yeah, I would have been considered a heretic having this conversation in the past. But how much more it has expanded my view of who God is and how beautiful, how beautiful God really is.
- [24:59]
B
Yep.
- [25:00]
A
Okay, so this was one that kind of stems from your acts, what you, you alluded to with Ananias and Sapphira and God doesn't. You believe God doesn't kill people? How do you reckon that with the Old Testament, where there was a lot of times that it seemed as though God killed people. And so how do you then read the Old Testament? How do you think about Passover? How do you think about different things in light of that?
- [25:25]
B
Yeah, good question, great question. And it's a net, and it's an inevitable question. Right. It's a question that if you don't ask, I would question whether you're really reading the Bible the way it should be read because the Bible challenges our assumptions and categories and all that. But so how do you reconcile the Old Testament where it seems like God sanctions and orders massacre and even some would say genocide. I know that offends some and just for others it's just facts of the matter. Here's, here's just like this is impossible to give like a three minute take, but I'm gonna try. Brian Pastor, who I really, really enjoy and know a bit in Missouri, says this, that the Old Testament is on a journey of discovery with us of who Jesus is. Now that's an interesting way of saying that the Old Testament and the writers of the Old Testament even we see this inspiration because I believe the scriptures were inspired by God, I really do. But we see that kind of inspiration and think of it maybe as God kind of controlling, taking over a person's mind and that that person just kind of robotically writes. But I just don't think that's how it was. And I think there's a lot of messiness in humanity in the scriptures and in that process of inspiration. And I think that when we see verses that that's where it seems like God is telling God's people to massacre whole people, groups or nations or women and children, or leave none alive or completely wipe them out. I think that was God's people's interpretations of what they were hearing from God. But see, I don't think God ever tells God's people to kill people. That's it, like full stop. I don't think God ever tells God's people to kill people. Because if God does tell God's people to kill people, I've got some major questions that arise from that reality. It helps us figure out the Bible and makes the Bible interpretation of the Bible a little simpler, right? But then it introduces this whole huge question. And I want to tell you there's tons of people scored, just overwhelming amounts of people who have left the church, left the faith altogether because they can't follow a God who tells God's people to kill people. So the way I take that is that we get the heart and the will and the desires and the commands of God wrong all the time. And I think God's people in the Old Testament were trying to figure out how to navigate in this world and how to walk in this world. And violence was their only way of their own. It kind of dominated their imagination. They couldn't imagine any other way. But see Then Jesus comes along and he kind of gives life and animation to a different way of living and a different way of operating. And Jesus says things like, hey, you've heard it said even in the Scriptures, love your enemy. Love your neighbor, but hate your enemy. But I tell you something different. I tell you, I know what it says in the Bible, Jesus said, but I tell you, love your enemy. Pray for those who pray. Persecute you. When somebody slaps you on the right cheek, turn them to turn your other cheek to them as well. This is what the kingdom of God looks like. It looks like a Samaritan, one who's seen as an enemy, who goes to that enemy and cares for them and self sacrificially gives of themselves to them. That's what this kingdom looks like. So when Jesus is saying these things to me, that's a primary. That's a complete reorientation of how I interpret the Scriptures now, because I think Jesus is telling me to. And I see the writers of the New Testament doing that as well. So how do I reconcile it? I think it's really complex, but I think that we are. Here's a principle that I said over and over again, and I'll say over and over again in the future. We interpret the Bible through the person of Jesus. Jesus is our hermeneutic. Jesus is the lens that we see all of life through, including all of the Scriptures. So where it's confusing, where we have trouble with Ananias and Sapphira or the violence in the Old Testament, we interpret the Bible through the lens of Jesus. It's just, to me, it's just that simple.
- [29:52]
A
Yeah. And you know, the way of Jesus often, like the way, the easy way would be to just hate our enemies and destroy them. And Jesus says, how about you love them and destroy them that way? Because when we love our enemies to the point of making them a friend, have we not destroyed our enemies? And so it's hard. It's not the easy way, I don't think. I mean, it would be a lot easier to just squash things. But God's like, no, I got a different plan.
- [30:18]
B
Yeah. And how many religious people, maybe including some of the writers of the Old Testament, justified their own hatred and violence through sanctioning it by God or through God. Right. Saying God hates these people just as much as I do. Maybe we're still being learning to be delivered of that spirit.
- [30:36]
A
That's good. Okay, this one's a little bit more practical. But what disciplines do you wish were more practiced amongst? Bruce City churches. So when you think of spiritual discipline, spiritual practices, and you think about our body here at Brew City, have this little group that gathers. What would you say is like, man, I wish we could help people understand this more and practice this more.
- [31:01]
B
Come on. I love whoever asked that question. I love you. I just. It feels like an opportunity for a pastor to rant about their church. Right. But we know you want to do that. Don't want to do that. Yeah. I have been excited about the Book of Acts for a number of reasons. And let me. So let me just answer it through this. Through this. To say, here's what I hope the Book of Acts is teaching us as a church. First to. In. By first, I mean these, in no, no, no order. But just first thing I'll say is, I hope for me the Book of Acts is doing this. Let me say this for me, the Book of Acts is. Is reacquainting me with a very present, very real, very personal life of the Holy Spirit, Spirit of God in the companionship and the friendship that the Spirit of God brings and the voice in my life that the Spirit longs to bring. And it's. The Book of Acts is kind of reminding me, don't forget about the presence of the Spirit wherever you are, whenever it happens to be. Be attentive to the Spirit of God. Be listening for the Spirit of God. Be following the Spirit of God. I hope that's where. I hope we're growing in that as a church as we, like some of us, identify as progressive Christians. Right. And we can kind of think that we're done with things like that. And I want to say I hope I'm never done with pursuing the Spirit of God, because if I do, I'm missing a whole section of who God is. So that's first thing. Second thing is we see the church praying a lot in the Book of Acts. And I'm going to talk about prayer in a couple of weeks because I've got thoughts about prayer. But prayer is complicated, and prayer is messy, and some of us love prayer, and some of us have gotten to a place where we have a hard time praying at all. Or maybe I've heard from people who say, I haven't prayed for years because it's just become too complicated, too painful. Some of us, when we have these conversations together, have said, I don't feel welcome with God sometimes because of my life where I am. I hope that we are a church who's kind of moving back or for the first time in a long time. Or maybe maybe just kind of reorienting the place of prayer in our lives and in our church. I'd love to see that happen. And I've always, always, always want to see our church orient ourselves around the person of Christ more. And that means even just being present in the community, like, more and regularly on Sunday mornings and in home churches and learning communities and all the things that are offered or whatever that I hope we're kind of being invited to share and orient our lives around Jesus. Because we're not going to grow in the ways of Jesus if we're not actually in putting ourselves in places where we're seeing and hearing and being reminded of the ways of Jesus. So that's just a couple things. What about you, Shelley?
- [34:01]
A
For me, I would say just kind of piggybacking on what you said is teaching people and having people come to an understanding of what it means to be present to the moment they're in. I think so much of our anxiety, our angst, our whatever, is because we're worried about what's coming or we're fretting about what's happened and we miss the moment we're in. And so I can't do that for anybody. But I love walking with people and trying to help them understand that. But that's something that I would love to see people be much more intentional about. Like, help me be present to this moment, whether it's with my children or in my workplace or where I'm walking or whatever I'm doing. But to be present to the moment that we're in and not fretting about the past or fretting about the future, and then also in that, just. Just walking with God. And this is. This is a big thing to say is my title, if you will, is Pastor of Discipleship. But I would love to see people really take ownership of their discipleship. Because as much as I can come alongside of you, as long as anybody can come alongside of you, nobody can do the work for you. And so just really kind of giving yourself to that, submitting yourself to that, if you will. I know the S word submit can sound scary sometimes, but I just think if we could just submit to the fact that we want to be more like Christ and doing the work that it takes. And it doesn't just happen with a snap of the finger. It takes intention. It takes changing my lifestyle sometimes. It takes changing thoughts that I thought I had all figured out. And realizing something as simple as prayer can happen anywhere. And it doesn't have to be in just my devotional chair or whatever that I maybe was brought up with. So expanding that horizon, if you will, is something that's always on my heart.
- [35:50]
B
Good. Thank you.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah. So another kind of bigger question, but I know it's one that's on a lot of people's minds, especially today, is the question of health. And what is hell? Is it a physical, eternal place that people's souls will live in eternal torment? Or is it something different? And so when people come to you and say, well, I don't want to go to hell and there's that shame and that judgment that they walk in, how would you answer that? What is hell? And how do we even integrate that into our thinking and our theology and our way of living?
- [36:30]
B
Okay. All right, here we go. I'm 48 years old. I've been a Christian for. I can't remember not being a Christian. Right. That's me. And I probably believed I'd say at least three to four different things about what hell is or looks like or my idea of it. I grew up with the idea that eternal conscious torment, which is what the theologians call it, infernalism. And it sounds scary because it should, because it is scary. And that's the idea that everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, accepted him in their heart and believed and confessed all the things, if you don't do that, you're going to spend eternity in never ending eternal conscious torment. Right. That was my. The majority of my life. I believed that. And then as I started thinking more and encountering Jesus more, I kind of thought, that's a rough idea. I have issues with that. I adopted a belief that many faithful Christians throughout church history have adopted, which is called annihilationism. That just says if you die without accepting Jesus and walking with Jesus and believing in Jesus, you just cease to exist. That hell isn't a real place, but it's just your existence ceases. And then I thought, well, there's too much in the scriptures that show that the eternity lasts forever and that it's a real thing. So I kind of adopted what I would call a CS Lewis kind of a great divorce concept of heaven or heaven and hell, that the only people who wind up in hell are the people who just choose it for themselves, who look goodness, who look life, who look forgiveness and grace in the face and Jesus and say, thanks, but no thanks, I'll have it my way. And I think that's probably the best vision of like a hell, if we can think of it. That way. I think that's my. Currently my favorite place. But here's where I have arrived now. And it's because of the Scriptures, just so you know, and that I don't think anyone will wind up in this pulpit place we call Hell that I think all people will be saved. And I think that because of two things. First thing is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. I think the life, death and resurrection of Jesus so all encompassing and all powerful and has there is nothing that can stand in the way of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, that all will be saved in the end. And whether that's in this life or the next, that all of us, every single human who's ever lived will eventually look Jesus in the face and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. And you know why I believe that? Because Revelation 5 says it. Because Philippians 2 says it. Do you know why I believe that all will ultimately be saved? Because that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, that nothing will stand in the way and can, can resist the force and the power of the love of Jesus is because 1st Corinthians 15 says it, because Ephesians 1 says it, because Colossians 1 says that there's all sorts of scriptures that I could give you that I believe this, that says that, that tells you this is the way I believe, why I believe what I believe. And I also believe that hell is a really powerful metaphor for many people's existence right here, right now, today. When Jesus spoke about hell, he was, he wasn't, he wasn't speaking about this, this kind of spiritualized place where eternal conscious torment happens. He was talking, he used the word Gehenna. And Gehenna was a place, it was a literal dump outside of the city of Jerusalem, whereas it's like a landfill. And the fire would never die and it was always burning and everything that was useless would be tossed away. In Gehenna, it was a metaphor. And I think that's a good way of taking Jesus seriously, is saying my life without Jesus is kind of like that in many ways. It's searching and trying to find where I find belonging and where I find hope, where I find life, where I find goodness and beauty. In Jesus Christ comes and brings all of that meaning, all of that goodness, all of that life. So when we talk about hell, it's this complex thing where many of us have different perspectives. And just so you know, this is a church where some of us still believe in that eternal conscious torment, others believe in that CS Lewis kind of vision of hell. Some others of us are kind of. We believe in ultimate reconciliation, that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. We're in different places and we're all trying to figure it out together at this church called Bridge City Church, is what I'm trying to tell you.
- [41:19]
A
And I love that we are a place that people can think differently.
- [41:22]
B
Yeah.
- [41:22]
A
And we can still be family. These aren't deal breakers. They're just good discussions. And none of us really have it totally figured out. But I will say in my life, I grew up in an assembly of God church. And hell was used as a weapon big time in my growing up years to keep me in line, to make sure I was making the decisions that should be made by young woman in a church kind of thing. And I remember being terrified of just like every night going, please, God, whatever I did today, I'm sure it's a million things. Forgive me because I don't want to go to hell. I want to be with you eternity. And though there was some good of that and some challenge in my soul of things that I did need to inspect and realized maybe I needed to think about a little differently, it also was such a place of, like, control that it just was really messed with my head for a long time. And as I began studying and understanding the grace of God and just how big and different the grace of God is than even what I can possibly muster towards someone, I can muster all sorts of grace, all sorts of forgiveness, all sorts of whatever. And that falls so short of God's grace. And so when I began to understand that hell became less threatening.
- [42:34]
B
Yeah.
- [42:35]
A
Because God's love became more. Much more inviting.
- [42:38]
B
And understanding that while you're looking for. Let's do one more question. Is that all right? If you're here and you're like, I can't be at a church where the lead pastor doesn't believe in hell or is a universalist whatever. Right. I get it. Like, these things that we've been taught sit deeply within us and are really hard to consider. Other things, I just get that place. And I have to deal with these questions. As a pastor, I've chosen to kind of be honest and transparent about what I believe about this stuff. But I also have. That means that I have lots of conversations with people that are really concerned or angry that I hold this position. Even people in other churches are really angry at me for holding this position. And I get it. But here's my question for them. And here's my question for you, if you're wrestling with this and I ask this in love, really, it's. Why is this. Why is this idea of hell so important that we would choose to leave a church because we don't see it the same way? Or that we would not call one another Christians because we have different opinions on something like this? Why is the idea of hell such a big deal that we would break off fellowship with one another because of it? Why are we so committed to this idea? Now this is where I'm going to get on a soapbox. Why are we so committed to this idea that billions of people will wind up in eternal conscious torment? Why is it so offensive the cross of Christ could actually accomplish something bigger than what you've been told? And I would just love for us to sit with that. Why is it so offensive? And is it really that offensive when you think of the cross of Christ in that way?
- [44:26]
A
It's good, good question to sit with. And it kind of goes with the last question of how do you forgive people that hurt you when you need them the most? And kind of going with that as we walk in, maybe new understanding, a new hell, whatever the topic would be, how do we walk in what we believe God's call calling us to and keep peace, make peace with the people around us, forgive them when that needs to happen and how do we forgive them when they hurt us the most?
- [45:03]
B
I It's inevitable for me because I'm a pastor and I've got thoughts and I'm committed to being kind of honest and authentic and transparent that I'm going to get people who are offended by the things that I think and believe sometimes right in the most painful sometimes for me, not sometimes, all the time are when those are people that are really, really close to me that I just. They're part of my life. And that's when I have to make a choice. Remember if I'm out of the 90s, do you remember those what would Jesus do bracelets w wjd Right. Super cheesy. But it's just this good reminder for me of how we started out this time talking about violence in the Old Testament and measuring that against having a savior named Jesus who said things like love your enemy and pray for those, bless for those who persecute you. This is when it gets the hardest, is when you do feel hurt by someone who is supposed to love you and accept accept you and be there for you unconditionally. And that gets. You get dropped, you get hurt. That's when it's most difficult. But I don't just like I've said this in sermons a million times and here's where it becomes the most difficult. I don't see an asterisk when it comes to Jesus saying I want you to forgive 7 times 77. In other words, an infinite amount. I want you to love your enemies and bless those who persecute you. I don't see conditions, I don't see opt outs of those. And so that's what I'm just to encourage you whether you can do it today or not. I hope that you see yourself on a road towards forgiveness because it's going to bless that person who hurt you, but it's also going to bless and heal, bring healing to yourself and you deserve that. And forgiveness just unlocks something within yourself that you just don't get. That person, I feel like has a hold on you when you hold on to unforgiveness and when you release that life and healing becomes available and rushes in and you open yourself up to it. And I know that this stuff that I'm talking about for some is really really complex, really personal. Maybe you've been rejected by your family because of who you are, the choices you make or who you love. All that stuff. Stuff. This is complex. And so I can't give one big blanket answer. This has to be over coffee in past with a in a pastoral meeting where we can have discuss all the nuance and the particularities of your particular situation. It's all different. But I would just want to say I think Jesus is inviting all of us to the freedom and the healing and the life that comes in forgiveness because we're forgiven by Jesus and Jesus wants us to be people who are just familiar with and in the habit of forgiving and releasing offenses.
- [47:52]
A
So good. Because forgiveness I think is probably one of the hardest things, right?
- [47:58]
B
Absolutely.
- [47:58]
A
None of us likes to feel that way or feel hurt. And I just want to give a short example of a meeting I had this week with an old church friend and who's kind of struggling through church, hurt church, all the stuff that we I'm sure many of us in the this room could say yup too. And I knew going into this meeting that I was probably going to hear some things that were going to be hard for me to hear because she knows some of my family members and old friends who have called me a heretic and who have decided that the things I believe aren't right and have cut off relationship. And so I went in kind of preparing my heart for that and going, like, okay, I'm going to hear some things are going to be hard. Help me, Lord, to remember who my identity is in. And it's not in what people. People think about me. It's in you.
- [48:43]
B
Yeah.
- [48:44]
A
And that's easier said than done when you're sitting in a meeting, hearing some really hard things. And I just found myself going, God, forgive him. Like, I don't know what else to say. I don't know what else to say. Because, yeah, there's a part of me, if I'm really honest, that wants to squish them because it hurts and I don't like it. But then there's this part of me that goes, but what does that do to me? And what does it do to even the person, but also to my own soul? And if I want to follow after you, Lord, your way was of forgiveness. And that is a hard place to find. But I just want to encourage you that in it, it's worth the work. And like Randy said, each thing is different and nuanced. And there's lots of parts of the story that are helpful to understand. But I think in general, when we talk about people who have hurt, hurt us even for what we believe now, it can be a painful, painful place to walk. But that's where the disciplines and the things we were talking about, that's why they matter to us, because we want to see you flourish, and we want to see you be able to walk whole and in wholeness. And we know that only. Only Jesus can do that work in us. Only the Holy Spirit can do that work in us. No pastor can do it. No perfect church. Exactly. All the things that need to take place are found in Jesus. And so I just want to encourage you in that, because forgiveness is a hard one. And I found that this week, even just hearing some things that I even went in, prepared to hear still hurt. And there was still that part of me that was like, I just want to make them hurt. And I had to submit that to the Father, Son and Spirit and just ask them to transform them that into forgiveness, whatever it took. So that's just a thought.
- [50:28]
B
Awesome. Good. Thank you, Shelley, for fielding those. If you're able friends and you feel like it, would you stand with us one more time? We're gonna. I'm gonna pray, and then we're gonna sing one more song before we're done this morning. But, God, I just want to tell you that as I reflect back on what we've talked about this morning, it just is A reminder of how grateful I am for this thing called the church, that I can enter a space and consider with my friends and family, with my brothers and sisters, things like how to forgive. That's enough right there. But considering things like how to be not held captive to violence and how not to see you through the lens of violence. Asking questions about what happens to us after death. How far are the reaches of your life, death and resurrection? Jesus, those are good questions to ask and to sit with and to wrestle with. Who is my enemy and who is my friend. These are such beautiful questions to sit with. And so I just asked Jesus, would you let these conversations form and shape us? Holy Spirit, walk with us out of this building and into the rest of our lives in ways that you're reminding us and calling us into this life that you have, that you're calling us into deeper and fuller and more rich. So thank you for this place in this time in your word and that we get to wrestle with Paul and we just worship you one last time together. Jesus.
- [52:13]
A
Thank you again for being with us. We would love to have you join us if you are ever in the Milwaukee area. And we hope you have a healthy place to gather wherever you are from.