← Brew City Church
Brew City Church
Q&R | Holy Disruption
01:00:20
May 3, 2026 | Brew City Church | Randy Knie and Shelly Schmor
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Transcript57 lines
- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the Brew City Church Podcast. We are a Christian church following in the way of Jesus and located in the heart of downtown Milwaukee. We're glad you've joined us and we hope you enjoy this week's message. Well, hello, everyone. Good to see you. This morning I was. When we first started, I was like, are we gonna be alone in this room? But you look at it all here now. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. I'm Shelley. I'm just here to let you know of a couple announ announcements, some things going on around here that you can be involved in, kiddos. You can make your way to kids church. Now, we hope that you have fun with your teachers. They'll meet you at the back door. And we just are excited for you to learn about Jesus and how much he loves you. All right, well, this morning is a Q and R time, as Forrest already said. And so I'm just going to give that instruction one more time. To the number where you would put your friend's name, you put the number 22333. And then in your text, you put CoolOcean 322 a space. And then your question. And like Forrest said, don't make it too long because they won't fit. And so I'll have to guess what you were asking, and you don't want that. So. But we'll be really excited to just have some time of conversation and answer some of those questions. So to the number 22333, text COOLOCEAN322A SPACE, and then your question. And then, yes, another reminder, we're going to remind you for a while, especially for the sake of our new people, that we have parking. And it's in the lower level of the Metro Market parking garage, which is entered only on Jackson Street. Say it with me. Only on Jackson Street. Okay. Anywhere else, you might get a ticket or towed, and that would really stink. So enter on Jackson Street. You're welcome to park there. And then there's also, of course, street parking, if you can find it. Alrighty. And then tomorrow, beginning tomorrow, we have a new learning community that's going to be starting. And it's a Christian response to political polarization. And I think we can all say, even just after the last day, we can all learn from this. Right? And so come. And it's just going to be a time of learning. How do we do? How do we bridge some gaps here? How do we begin to have good conversations in this incredibly polarizing time right now? And so if you are of any interest at all to that, please come here tomorrow night at 6:30 right in this room. We're going to be gathering together for a time of conversation and learning together about what that could look like done in a healthy way. All right, and then this week's game, Thursday, May 7, 7:30 Wickfield. Be there. Going to be fun. We'll look forward to seeing you. And thank you so much for your generous living and giving and the way that you partner together with this place called Brew City Church. If you call this place home. There's three ways that you can give and we are just so grateful. So thank you for that.
- [03:16]
B
Good morning. Always good to see you. Always glad to share this time with you. Beulah, if we could get the slide back up there with the text info, just reminding you how to do it. Even though Shelley just said it. I'm just going to say it again because sometimes our mind wanders. You text it 2 instead of the phone number 22333 in the body of the text. All caps, cool. Ocean 322. No spaces there. Then space. Your question. Keep it brief. We've got a smaller crew today. For some reason, I don't know, I didn't get the memo that you know, there's something going on. I have no idea. But this time depends on you. I want to say everyone thinks it depends on me and my responses and answers and all that stuff. It depends on you and your questions. So I want to encourage you to just especially maybe if you haven't asked a question in this time. This is something if you're new to Brew City, Brew City Church, we do this fairly regularly. Instead of a sermon, we do a Q and R time where you can text your questions in live. And I'll answer them in real time as well. I'll do my best to respond and Shelley will do the same. We've been in the Book of Acts and we are in Acts 8 next week. We got a really fun, really crazy story coming up. But we've had some, some things in the Book of Acts until this point. As a matter of fact, about a month ago, we talked through Acts 8, Acts 5. I'm sorry. And in Acts 5 is a story that we all know by the two names that are kind of infamous within the Bible, Ananias and Sapphira. And I said some things about that story that are a little bit unconventional and a little bit uncommon. But I would love to have a conversation about some of your questions about that. But what I said was, I don't believe that God killed Ananias and Sapphira. And if you want to know more about why I think that, send in a question to 22333 Cool Ocean 322 and then ask your question. But even in Acts, Acts is just kind of turning into this really intense, really fun ride. In Acts 6, we saw the Hellenistic widows get being neglected and passed over in the distribution of the food. In other words, the people in power were not interested in feeding these marginalized women. They were dehumanizing them to the point of leaving them out of the mealtime every day. That's a problem. But we see this happening in the church and in our world and in ourselves, all over the place. Also, I just want to remind you that if you have any just general questions, maybe you're new and you haven't been here for this series in the Book of Acts, but maybe you've got this burning question that's been sitting in the back of your head in regard to God and the Bible or the world around us. We like talking about real things here at Bruge City Church. So I want to encourage you, even if it's not in regard to the Book of Acts, we'd love to get that question. Are you. Do we have a few questions? All right, let's get rolling. Shelley, let me get this over here. Thank you.
- [06:26]
A
All right, there seems to be a few questions about Acts, but I'm going to start with some of the other ones because I think they're also kind of burning in people's hearts when we come to Acts as well. But one is that Bruce City welcomes people who have suffered from religious trauma. What are the reasons that we should stay? Is there any certainty? And then what makes Brew City different from other progressive churches?
- [06:52]
B
So three. Three questions in one?
- [06:54]
A
Well, yeah, two and one and one. That kind of.
- [06:57]
B
All right, let's go through them one by one. What's the first one again? Remind me.
- [06:59]
A
Bruce City welcomes people who have suffered from religious trauma.
- [07:02]
B
Yeah.
- [07:03]
A
What are the reasons we should stay in.
- [07:04]
B
In the church, I'm assuming, right? Yeah, good question. Religious trauma is. There's no one type of religious trauma. There's no one type of spiritual abuse. There's no one type of church experience. Even so, it's a really difficult question to answer because I don't know your particular experience and what that religious trauma, what the source of it was, because there could be a possibility that I would. We would talk and I would say you might need some Time off, you might need a break. Right. But in general, why should we stay? I think if we're able to step to find healing, whether we need therapy or whether we need some trusted friends on the journey, or whether we found a church here that feels like a safe place where you can be yourself and you can show up in whatever capacity that is you have the capacity to do, I think the church is worth fighting for. I think, as we see in the Book of Acts, it's easy to see if you're really reading that the church is full of broken people, and the church is full of people who do broken things to one another and don't get it right, maybe more often than not. And when it feels like church should be a place of safety and refuge and home and in life and in beauty and goodness, that is a huge break. But I just want to say I think the church is worth fighting for. And I think the church, it can be a place where you find healing as well, from that church trauma, from that religious trauma, from that abuse. And I want to say that Jesus wants to redeem those places and Jesus wants to kind of use the church to be a source of healing in life. So I just think that the church is worth fighting for in. In my life, I need the church, and I'm really trans. I try to be really transparent about the things that I need to. I've been moving away from in my spiritual journey and my beliefs and the experiences I've had and. Let's keep going to the next one.
- [09:18]
A
Yeah, I just want to add to that. The question was, what are the reasons we should stay? And I think we can't answer that for you. Yeah, I think you have to answer that. What are the reasons you should stay? What are you finding? Is it a place of safety? Is it a place of belonging? Is it a place where questions are safe? If the answer to those questions are yes, then I think the Spirit might be saying something to you about staying. And so that's one of those things where I think oftentimes we put discipleship onto the pastors to just disciple us, but we have to have a part in it and we have to have action in it. And so that would be one of my answers to that. And then the second part of that question was, what is our certainty? And if I can just say before I hand it to you, certainty can become a huge idol. And I think nothing's certain. And so that's part of faith, right? Is taking a faith journey is like, I don't know all the answers. And I'm going to run into things that I have questions about and I'm going to trust that the people I'm with have some of the same questions and aren't faking it, right? Aren't just trying to make by. And so, yeah, that would be part of the certainty. What would you say to certainty?
- [10:29]
B
I mean, said a lot of things about certainty and the lack of interest in it, even though we've been discipled to hold fast to certainty. And by that I just mean Shelley said the word faith. That's what Christianity is. We are a religious faith, a religious faith tradition. And faith means that you believe something that you can't see or know or prove or be certain of. That's just. I'm just talking Webster's Dictionary stuff here, right? This should not be controversial. That's what faith is. That's what belief is. And I want to make faith, faith again, like we want to. When you see your faith as something that you're holding in belief, with humility, with actual faith, that I'm actually putting myself into this, I believe in this enough to base my life around it, that's beautiful. But trying to pretend that we're certain of something that you can't be certain of is a recipe for disaster in your faith journey. I want to tell you friends, it might work in the short term and it helps pastors pay the bills and put butts in seats because it's a kind of a. It can be a manipulative tool. But I think actually putting your faith in something in Jesus, putting your trust in Jesus in a way that takes risk, in a way that we're uncertain of how that's going to come out to, I think that's beautiful. This is what Jesus is looking for. So I just want to center faith again and say the reason maybe that faith is more scary than certainty is because doubt gets brought into the equation. When you actually say that, we can't know this for certain. It's a dynamic thing and it ebbs and flows over time. And it feels like a roller coaster at times, doesn't it? It's supposed to, like, this is what life looks like. This is what faith is supposed to look like. It's not static, it's not fixed. My life is dynamic and so is my faith journey along with it. But that's why we have the community to come around and alongside one another in journey in faith. Maybe even when I don't have all the faith that I'd like to have, I Have someone alongside me who does, who can walk with me forward. This is what the church is supposed to be. This is why I don't want to give up on the church. Bring the second question in, first question in the second. And what's the last one? Chillian?
- [12:53]
A
Yeah, I'm going to kind of combine it with another is. Sorry,
- [13:00]
B
sorry.
- [13:00]
A
No, it's about the difference. That is, how is Bruce City different from other progressive churches? But kind of combined with that is how do you explain your Christianity inside the pec, the Post Evangelical Collective or post evangelicalism to non believers? And so, you know, we call ourselves a progressive church. We're part of this network of churches. What is that? What does that Christianity look like? And then what makes Bruce City different than a lot of churches that say they're progressive?
- [13:32]
B
Yep. So the Post Evangelical Collective is a collection of churches, ministries, leaders, artists who have been formed and shaped in the evangelical church. Like myself, like Shelley, like many of us here, we were once considered ourselves the evangelical church. For the vast majority of our history, we have been. But the Post Evangelical Collective is a group of churches and ministries and artists and in leaders and church leaders that say evangelicalism feels like a sinking ship. In some ways. Evangelicalism feels a little bit too intellectually and spiritually thin for us. In some ways, evangelicalism is avoiding some of these questions and also holding onto things like certainty that we're talking about. There's reasons that some of us want to step out of that tradition, but also say Jesus is, if anything, more central for us as we kind of are stepping into this evolving faith that we have. So the Post Evangelical Collective, I would say, is for churches like us who say, I want to be done being part of this tribe, this movement called evangelicalism, because it doesn't represent who I am and what I believe anymore. There's many of us who would say that, but I still love Jesus and maybe even I don't want to step into a high church tradition. Do you know what I'm talking about? Where if you want to step into some things that you may be theologically align with, you have to kind of change your worship, your mode of worship, and what the Sunday morning gathering feels like and what church ecclesiologically feels, experientially feels like, and that's what the Post Evangelical Collective exists today do, is to create a home for those of us in that tribe. How are we different? I would say we are more to the center than a lot of other post evangelical churches. We are an inclusive and affirming church. We are a church who sees the Bible as a miracle and inspired, but also a challenge and something to wrestle with. Right. We are a church who. Where I, as lead pastor, have told you that I believe in ultimate reconciliation. We are a church that believes in those things, similar to a lot of other post evangelical churches. Even though there's not a litmus test for what to believe or what to say. You're about as a church to be in the post evangelical collective. And at the same time, while we hold those things and believe those things, many of us, we still hold Jesus as very, very central. And also we still want to be a place where we aren't turning into an echo chamber, including politically. We want to be a place where we have a wide spectrum of beliefs and stances and ways of seeing the world. When we have post evangelical collective leaders coming into Bruce City, I need to let them know of who we are. Because all PEC churches are not the same as those of us who went to the gathering in Boston this last week have seen. There's a wide spectrum, but I would say in general, we are on the more moderate place, less liberal, less progressive than a lot of the post evangelical collective churches. And they know that. And we name this. And I think it's healthy for that church network to have a church like us that's maybe more on the evangelical side, even without being that. Does that make sense? What are your thoughts, Shelley?
- [16:55]
A
Yeah, I just. I kind of think of like my elevator answer. If somebody says, tell me about what it means to be a post evangelical church. Is that like a slippery slope that. I don't know if you ever get that question. The slippery slope thing is a big deal to some people. And I'm like, get better grip shoes. I don't know.
- [17:10]
B
But what I tell people is it kind of is. And it's a good ride. Yeah, it's okay.
- [17:16]
A
But I also would say that if somebody just asked me about my own faith journey, I would say I am more in love with Jesus now than I think I ever have been in my entire life growing up in evangelical churches. And so my Christology has grown immensely of who I think Jesus is, who I understand him to see me as his daughter, his beloved. Like, to me, it's just grown in beauty so much. And so if you're worried about a slippery slope, that's one I want to be on, is right into the arms of Jesus where it is safe to ask questions, it is safe to doubt, it is safe to have bad days, even as a Pastor, you can have a bad day. Like, I grew up in churches where that was not allowed. And so there's just a lot of beauty when it comes to a place where you can feel like, I can breathe, I can take a deep breath. I can hold these things in my faith. I can let go of unhealthy things, and I can begin to replace them with healthy things. And I think deconstruction is super, super important. But I also think reconstruction is super, super important. And if there's something I think that I really am learning at the pec, it's how do we reconstruct in a healthy way so we don't have to deconstruct so soon? Because I think everybody will. It's a cycle that happens over and over in life. But I also think, how do we then raise children that don't have to deconstruct?
- [18:38]
B
Yeah. And let me just say, as you're looking for the next question, Shelley, I am here for the deconstruction conversation. I mean, I've got a podcast where we talk about ad nauseam. However, I think a better way to look at this deconstruction reconstruction thing is as just spiritual evolution should be a natural thing in our faith journey. Let's just get used to it. We don't. I'm done. Can I just say, I love those of us who say I deconstructed, but I'm ready to be done with that category. And not because I don't want us to change. It's because I want us to. Just know that you should assume that your faith in your belief in how you see God and how you see scripture and how you see humanity, how you see yourself, how you see the world around you, those things should change and evolve and grow. Probably never stop. Like, I'm in a place now where I feel more solid than I ever have. I went through several years where many things were changing at once. Do you know what that feels like? I can see by your head nods. You do, Most of you. But I'm in a place now where I feel like I've. It's more steady. But when I'm at that place, I don't think, oh, I've fully reconstructed. And so therefore, I've arrived now, and I can plan on having these same beliefs and seeing this life and faith and God and the Scriptures and Jesus the same way for the rest of my life, because I figured it all out now. What a prideful, arrogant thing to think. That's why certainty is a prideful and arrogant thing why it's some people call it the sin of certainty. I just want to I know that while things feel solid now, it's going to change and it's going to evolve and there's going to be things in my life that are going to be a catalyst for that change in evolution. And sometimes it's just going to be the spirit of God inviting me into deeper and richer places spiritually. And I want to say I'm here for it all. So let's just know that we are, as my spiritual director says, as our spiritual director says, all living things grow. Yes, it should just be an expectation for us as human beings and on the spiritual journey. What do we got next?
- [20:49]
A
And I think to let go of our linear thinking, that it's going from point A to point B, but rather it's a cyclical thing that's going to keep going. And hopefully there's progress and progression and movement forward and upward, but also it's going to keep happening. You're going to like, there's going to be a time where you go, oh, I believe that. And now I have to rethink that. And it's okay to do that. And so just getting comfortable with things that honestly, most of us were probably told growing up in church, it's not okay to think it's not okay.
- [21:18]
B
I mean, I've got, I've got too many people in my history relationally who have struggled through faith crises. And maybe in some of them, not maybe some of them actually haven't made it and kind of said, I'm done with faith, I'm done with religion, I'm done with Christianity. And I think part of that is because how they were given faith and how they've been told to hold it doesn't have to be that way always. Let's keep moving, Shelley.
- [21:42]
A
Yeah, Just in thinking of that, though, there's been a couple questions on things like what are books that you have read this year that helped you grow, grow and sustain your faith in this ever changing, evolving faith we have? And then what are any favorite movies about faith depictions. You know, doesn't have to be a Christian movie, but movies that tell a good story that speak to that. Is there anything that comes to mind, book or movie wise?
- [22:10]
B
Do you have anything?
- [22:15]
A
No, I'm thinking about the questions I'm asking you. Well, right now I'm reading the Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Mong Kid, which is an oldie but a goodie, and it really talks about this woman's Journey, the author's journey from Christianity to a divine feminine mindset. And it's really healthy and good. And I'm reading things, of course, that I think back to some of my Sunday school teachers, and they'd be like, shelly, we need to talk kind of thing. But it's good, and it's growing me, and it's making me think outside boxes. I would say almost anything I read by Richard Rohr does that for me, walks me into deeper places. And really just. I've been reading a lot about Celtic spirituality just because I really find it intriguing. It's very closely related to indigenous spirituality in many ways, and one of the premises that keeps coming across in several of the books I've read. John o', Donoghue, the other authors are escaping me right now. But one of the things that's really coming across to me is this, like, divine river of consciousness that God is. And we so personify God sometimes as my Father, as my. As the Son, which is all good. I'm not saying to throw that away, believe me. But I just thought, isn't that an interesting thought to think about? Like, there's this divine wisdom in this world, this perennial wisdom that goes on and on and again, just like your perennials come up in your garden, it just keeps happening over and over. There's truths and there's waves of truth and streams of truth that. That happens in. And so then I go, okay, God, help me find you deeper in this. And it's really growing my faith. It's making me go like, yeah, there is so much goodness in this world. There are so many different faith streams that bring beauty to this world. And if they weren't there, I wouldn't learn from them. And yet I was taught to be afraid of them. And instead, now my spiritual director has helped me with this a lot. Maybe just open your hands and receive from them what they can teach you. And he always reminds me there's a Buddhist saying that says, when the student is ready, the teacher will come. And I think I'm ready for some deeper things. And the teachers are coming.
- [24:34]
B
Good. So books. I don't have anything in mind that I would like readily give you. As far as what I've read in the last year. I've read a ton of books in the last year, but I can't. There's not one that pops out, except for one of the more recent ones I read. And it's. I mean, Shelley just quoted a Buddhist monk or something. And I'm going to tell you to Read an atheist, agnostic Bible scholar. It's not normal for us, by the way, but we're comfortable with it. It's okay. But talk to New Testament scholar by the name of Bart Ehrman recently because he wrote a book called Love Thy Stranger. And let me tell you why I'm recommending it, because it encouraged me greatly. Because Bart is a former Christian, former evangelical Christian, but in his academic work as a New Testament scholar, he left the faith and now identifies an agnostic atheist. Read the book if you're interested in a little bit of that journey. But his premise of the whole book is that Jesus, the person of Christ, changed the moral foundation of the Western world, of the world itself. And he would say, this is that it was a normal thing within all of ancient history to have this mantra of loving your neighbor. And Jesus said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. This is what we know, this is what we've been given. But Jesus said, I want to tell you, love your enemy as yourselves and bless those who persecute you. And then Jesus lived his life and teachings from fleshing that ethic out of enemy love. Not just neighbor love, but enemy love. And Ehrman would say, says that that changed the way we relate to one another. You see things like hospitals being built everywhere in the Western world because of this ethic of loving the stranger. You see things like orphanages. You see things like aging homes for the elderly and caring for the elderly. These are. You see things like. You see the early church doing radical things like loving and receiving in these babies who have left, been left out in the open by their parents because they are unwanted. The church takes them in and instantly we have a social network. All of these things in the west that we take for granted, Airmen would say, are in place because of Jesus ethic of love of our enemies, love of the stranger, and that transformed the world. I find it super profound and encouraging that even someone who is identifies as an agnostic atheist can say, jesus, the person of Christ changed the world. That's fun and it encourages me and it encourages my faith. So that's something. And also, as part of this sermon series, I'm going through a book called the Gospel of the Spirit by Justos Gonzalez. And if you want to follow along at all and have a deeper look at the Book of Acts, that is the most approachable of the commentaries and sources that I'm using and would be a great time for you to look at this. Cuban American New Testament scholars take on the early church and on the church of Acts. The Gospel of the Spirit by Justos Gonzalez.
- [27:31]
A
I also had a mentor at one of our previous churches that I was at in our life journey, and she was a librarian. And she told me, she gave me a challenge one day, and she said, for every book you read that you agree with, I'm going to challenge you to read three that you don't. And I'm like, that's a high challenge, three books for one. But I don't always do it quite to that ratio. But her premise was so good of, like, don't just read things that are an echo chamber for you. Actually get into the minds of what other people are thinking, and it's okay. And you're gonna be. And she said to me, you're gonna be surprised what you walk away with, because there's a lot of wisdom out there. And if we just dismiss somebody because they're not in the same box as us, we've missed a whole lot. So.
- [28:12]
B
And as far as movies go, I don't have a movie that I think is a great allegory for the Christian faith that I've seen recently, but one movie that I've just kind of been captivated by that I want to watch again. It's a little boring. Just warning for you. But it's Beautiful is a movie. It was nominated for best picture. It's on Netflix called Train Dreams. Anybody watch Train Dreams? No. Ian. Okay. Yep. Mary? It's. When I was watching halfway through it, I just had the feeling, and I feel old when I say stuff like this, but I thought, they don't make movies like this anymore. And what I mean is it's a simple movie about a man and his life and his the love and loss and grief and trying to figure out the world and wondering why the world is unjust and why oppression exists and our place and role in it and natural beauty abounding in living simply and living as best we can with the life we've been given. These are the things that I pulled out of that movie. And I loved it. It just warmed me. So I'd encourage you check it out. Tell me how much you hated it later.
- [29:25]
A
All right, well, moving on, There's a question here, and there's some practical ones, so I'm going to try to kind of bring them in. That ACTS has been stirring up. One is this one's is God's version of marriage, like the legal contract that we have today and because Adam and Eve didn't have a marriage license. So what. What in this post evangelical world is marriage. And I asked that hesitantly because I don't think marriage is the end all for everybody. And I think there's a place for it and there's a place for singlehood and all the things. So what are your thoughts on marriage? What is God's version of marriage? Is it like the legal contract that we have now or is it something different that we've kind of messed up?
- [30:08]
B
Yes. No. I love these questions because they're practical and real and complex. Right? So we, I told you before, we are an affirming church, and that's changed in the last probably five years. Right. This is a newish thing for us and my pastor friends who are, you know, my peers who we love one another and we're just walking together. They've got some questions for me, naturally. And I've been answering those questions for several years now. And we've got a great conversation. And one of them asked and said, so does the fact that you guys are affirming now mean that you don't believe in the covenant of marriage or the sacrament even of marriage? And I said, absolutely not. What I told him was, actually, nothing changes about the way we see marriage. As a matter of fact, I think we can disciple our people more into what a healthy marriage and marriage covenant can look like, because we can disciple all of our people into having a healthy marriage covenant. Right. And so we do hold marriage to be a beautiful expression. First, it's a sacrament because it's a reflection, a mirror of the way who God is and how God feels about us. That's why it's a sacrament. It's a means of grace, giving us a picture as to what God looks like. And also this person was asking, like, whenever I officiate a wedding, we do a marriage certificate for the state of Wisconsin and you file it and they're officially and legally married and all that. But we see marriage as more than that. We see marriage. I've been talking about the word covenant, which is a reflection of the covenant that God had with the people Israel, going back to Genesis 12 and Genesis 15. In all of the covenantal language you see throughout the Old Testament, it's built, it's designed to show us God's heart for us that God is covenant of God's self to us humans. And we are in this covenant relationship with God. And that means that God is not going to give up on us. God is with us. God will walk with us. All those promises of the scriptures believe are real because of this covenant that we are in with God and that we have been grafted into this covenant in Jesus, in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. This is just good theology. And also I want you to know that we know that marriage is really complex. I know that some of you may be watching online or in this room, are in marriages that are falling apart, or maybe I know some of us are in the. The course of divorce right now. Having your heart ripped out of your. Feels like your whole body. I've talked to some of you. I know you, and I want to let you know that we're with you as well. We have this. We have this view of marriage as a covenant that God wants us to honor for our whole lives. But sometimes life happens and we want to walk with you when you're in the midst of that as well. As a matter of fact, our teaching, my teaching that I did on Acts 5 in Ananias and Sapphira, somebody who's going through some real stuff and in world of even divorce told me this could change the way I see God, because I've seen the stuff that's happening in my life now is a reflection of like some sin in my life that God's punishing me for now. But maybe if God isn't like this, that means that this is just happening and God's with me in it. And I was like, praise you, Jesus, for that realization that maybe when something is gut, as awful feeling as your marriage falling apart happens, we can know that God is with us even then and maybe even more than ever. So we hold marriage very highly as the covenant and a reflection of the covenant that God has with us. And at the same time, it's complex and complicated and we want to walk with you pastorally.
- [33:59]
A
And I think one of the complexities. While we were out with Carrie Latticer this week, she asked me an interesting question. It was mine and Randy's answer anniversary on that day. And she said, so how many versions of him have you been married to? And how many versions of you has he been married to? And I thought, what a good question, because he is not married to the same person. He married way back. I have grown and changed and evolved, and so is he. And I think that that's a beautiful part of marriage too, is that the complexity of it is like, are we willing to do the inner person work to understand ourselves and the fact that we have changed and, and some aspects for the better and some maybe for the worse. And can we, can we hold those tensions even within marriage? I think is a good question. To ask. All right, well, you touched just a little bit on the fact that we're an affirming church in one of your sermons. I don't remember which one exactly, but you said that inquiries did not even know trans people often and like people that are against the. Because they're kind of the scapegoats these days, if you haven't been paying attention to the news, the ones that the othering is happening with. And the question is, do we need to know trans people to have a loving disposition toward them? Do people who are concerned about trans politics need to know trans people? What are your thoughts on just relationally how we walk this?
- [35:28]
B
I thank you for that question. I sure hope we don't have to know a trans person in order to love a trans person. I get that understanding is really difficult. This is complex stuff we're talking about. But we are called in Christ. One of the reasons that we take communion and go to the table every single week is to remind us of the love of Christ and the call of Christ to us. And that is to love every single human. So I hope we don't have to know a trans person or a queer person or a straight person or a MAGA person or a flaming liberal or whatever it might be in order to love them. Love is the common denominator. However, having an informed position or stance on something like transgender, on something like sexuality and gender and all that. If we want to come to a place of feeling secure and still with a lot of humility, but saying, like talking about it in a way that comes from a place of reality and all of that, I just want to say that's where we need to know trans people. Like, far be it from me to make statements about a community or a personal experience when I haven't talked to somebody with that personal experience. I can just tell you, for me, my view on sexuality went from black and white to gray really quickly. When I got a queer friend, when I got a friend who was a gay man who was willing to talk to me and answer me some questions and humanize this thing that has become an issue in the church. But it's just people. Everything changed for me when I actually just met somebody and knew somebody and loved somebody and then was challenged. And I want to say it's the same thing, I think with. In the trans community, in the non binary community, it's easy to get angry and to have these passionate stances and to take sides. We're being discipled by our. By our culture, by the politicians by power hungry people wanting to use this community to scapegoat them, to create fear, to get us to have these positions based on political commercials, based on sensational things that may or may not be true. I just like relationship changes dynamics and it changes the way we see things. And we can even disagree when we're in relationship with people, but we have to choose love and hold that with humility, all of us. So, no, I don't think it's absolutely necessary to know a trans person to love them. I sure hope it isn't. But, man, it helps us to know people in this community that we're trying, that our world wants us to make these statements about so desperately. I just think our world would be a much better place and see, especially in regards to these controversial things when people are in the middle of them, if we just gave them dignity and love them and listen to them.
- [38:40]
A
And I know even when I'm talking with family members or people that I know have very strong opinions, there's something about having a conversation with somebody when I'm picturing somebody in my head that it doesn't turn just into an argument. It's like what you're saying is actually hurting me because you're talking about my friend. And that changes the light of the conversation many times. Not always. Sometimes they double down even harder and say, well, you shouldn't have those friends. But I just think I want to hold the faces of the people I know and love and the fact that they're just people. I have a gay son and he's not my gay son, he's my son. This is, you know, not my transgender friend. It's my friend. And so can we just learn to love people and expose ourselves to people that would have been othered in any part of our lives? And then when we're having those conversations, to be able to say, I have a friend named Joe and he is whatever. And it's just, it's a beautiful way to humanize what's being very, very hardly. I mean, being held very tightly to dehumanize. And I just think the more we can do that, the more we can actually make that a practice, I think is a really healthy thing.
- [39:55]
B
Yeah. And if you, if you might think that this is like a new modern idea or category or conversation, just come back next week and we're going to dive into the scriptures and you'll find it's not.
- [40:09]
A
All right, well, thinking about othering the polarization politically, the religious climate that we find ourselves in, what would you Say to young parents, this, I'm guessing, is coming from a young family. What are the priorities right now when raising children? What are the priorities for conversation in this really polarizing political place? How do we raise kids that don't need therapy or read deconstruction on a regular basis? Which I would say everybody needs therapy for their entire life? But, yeah. What are your thoughts as we bring children into this world, or grandchildren into this world, or nieces and nephews who we love? What are the priorities? How do we walk with them in this really, really polarizing world?
- [40:53]
B
Oh, man. Well, I'm not going to be able to fully answer that question off the cuff in three minutes or less. Right. Because that's one of the more complicated questions you could ask is about parenting and how we do that right now. And all I can give you is just things that I try to do and embody with my kids and how we raise them. I want to be. I want to have real conversations with my kids about things like faith and politics. Those are really, really kind of heavy, weighty things. And also you hear about them a lot in our world. So let's just talk about faith and politics. I want to talk with my kids and engage with my kids in my faith in a way that is real, in a way that talks about the real questions I have in a way that puts on display my love for Jesus as well. Our kids could tell you we grew up being a worshiping family. Like, we had worship a lot on one on Saturday mornings as I'm making pancakes and eggs, we got worship on and we're worshiping Jesus together. That felt like a formative time for us as a family is giving the value of worship. And I would tell my kids, the reason that I do this is because I just love Jesus so much. And I think it's important to give your kids boxes that say, I want to tell you as your dad that I am in love with Jesus in my life. The most important thing to me is following Jesus. And that's why I want to be the dad I want to be to you. So I want to just normalize, just talking about Jesus and your love for Jesus and also normalize talking about your struggles and the things that. The reasons why mom and dad believe things that are different than Grandma and Grandpa do. Those are real conversations that we need to have with our kids. Right? Just to normalize. Just. This is a faith journey. And not everyone, not every Christian thinks like we do. Not every person is a Christian. And here's why. Here's how we do this thing. I've tried to. Yeah. I think just having those conversations and priorities. I know I almost. You and me and this candle, right? Yep. In what I've. What with politics, what I've been trying to do with my kids is just. Let me give you a few examples or just an example. I was. I remember driving in the car. We were. I was with my daughter. We were up north. We were driving on Highway 17 to Rhinelander from Eagle River. And I remember listening to NPR and hearing about the president say something. And I just remember in the conversation was toxic. What was on the radio, on npr and what's normal is just you keep listening to things and you keep going. You don't even think about it. But all of a sudden, I had this thought of just like my daughter. At the time, she was probably. She's 19 now. She was probably 16 at this point. 15 or 16. And I just realized all my daughter knows about the political process in the United States of America is this moment right now. That's it. And I just. I just turned off the radio and I just said, I just want you to know, Saeed, this is not normal. Like, what we are experiencing in our political world in our nation right now is not the way it's always been. Just let her know. When I was growing up, my parents were saying things like this to me as well. But it was difference. We could. Democrats and Republicans could actually talk to one another. They could actually introduce some bipartisan legislation where we're both working together for the good of the nation. It used to happen more. It wasn't always toxic and nasty. And I didn't always have to edit the news because the things that our politicians are saying aren't appropriate for you to listen to. It wasn't always this way. And I also want to tell my kids and try to tell my kids, you don't have to settle for this. Actually, there's a better way. And I don't want you to take this as the new normal. I want you to know there's a better way to inhabit the world that we live in and to navigate this political discourse. So I think just, we have to have conversations like this with our kids. We have to have conversations like this with our churches. We have to have conversations like this with our families. But just accepting that this is normal and this is the way things are going is way too depressing for me to think about. So I want to have some real conversations with our kids. I think that's the. For me That's a huge step in just normalizing this stuff and talking about our evolution of faith and our faith growth and the struggles of faith and what being a person of faith looks like in real ways to give our kids that kind of way of operating. Not way of just thinking and believing, but way of actually operating in the world around us. What are your thoughts, Shelley?
- [45:51]
A
Yeah, I would just say prepare yourself to have your kids disagree with no matter what you say. And part of that is just their nature. Like, they're learning, they're figuring all that out. But be willing to be a learner from your kid. Be willing to listen to their point of view. Be willing to go, like, it's okay if you disagree with me. Those are hard things for parents because, you know, raising kids God's way, we're supposed to just tell them what they need to believe, right? And all of a sudden, they push back. And so I think the more we're prepared for the pushback, the more deep those conversations can go, because we can actually go, wow, I've never thought about that. What a great perspective. And then the other thing is, I'm now parenting an adult child, which is a whole new world, really cool, really fun, totally different. But one of the things that he has often said to me was, thank you for letting me disagree and for not, like, belittling me. He also calls me out if I do, and that's okay. But one of the things that he had run into is he said to me one day, mom, I don't know how to answer people when they ask what my parents do, because the church and pastors have treated most of my friends like crap. And so I don't know what to say. And I just say, you know, you can just say, I work with people, like, if that's all that, you don't have to defend my job. You don't have to even defend my Jesus. Jesus defends me. And so in that, just giving him permission to say, say whatever you want, but also to realize, like, hopefully I can change their mind about that. And that's my hope, is to just love them and to love them as a mom, to love them as a pastor, to love them as a person, like, I just want to know them. And so maybe you can start there. Instead of just what I do, maybe it's how I live. But that's asking for a lot, too, because I'm like, what's he gonna say when I say. When he says how I live? Like, I hope it's true to what actually comes out of my mouth. And so I think that's such an important thing, though, is that kind of conversation, that kind of depth, to be able to say, like, I screw up? Like, did I do everything perfect with Cameron as he was being raised? And then came out like, no, I made tons of mistakes. But we found grace for one another because it was established in love. And I think parents, if you do that, aunts and uncles, grandparents, kids need that so much today. Just love them and let them love you back.
- [48:23]
B
Yeah. Two more quick stories about how I've kind of tried to interact with my kids about faith. First one, like, zoom back probably almost 10 years ago. I remember driving west on I94 in our minivan and my daughter asked mom and dad, what are demons? Go. It's like, what's more scary? Q and R on a Sunday morning or that kind of question in the minivan? Here's what I said. And I don't always. I don't always nail it, right? But here's what I said. I said, well, there are a couple of different ways to think about demons. I said, some Christians think that demons are real spiritual forces that are alive and well, moving about this world, trying to get us to sin and to suck the life out of us, God's creation, and that they're real entities moving about the world. Other Christians think that maybe they're not literal real beings, but they represent something that is real, which is evil. And that this is just a kind of a metaphor for understanding how evil is actually this active and real force in the world trying to get us to step into things like injustice and oppression and sin and brokenness. And then some people just think that it's all a fairy tale in general. And I just let it stop there. And I just. And she just looks around and she goes, I kind of think it's the second one. And I just said, awesome, tell me why. And then we just kept talking. But giving her the options of what Christians believe and have believed, to me, I want to be careful to give my kids containers that, as Shelley said, they can feel comfortable to grow and evolve and believe and move in their faith, not have to think that if I don't believe this certain thing, I'm not a Christian anymore. I want to give them options. Another conversation similar. I was getting ready to go for an evening walk, like, late night walk, and I was listening to my kids through our thin walls that my son hates. And I could hear them talking about the Bible and Jesus. And so I'm like, literally started Eavesdropping. And then I just chose to open their door and I was like, hey, dudes, this is a fun conversation. And Finn, my guy right there, just said, hey, dad, here's a question that we have. How do we know the Bible is real? Go. Right. And I just said, we don't. But we believe that it's inspired by God and the Holy Spirit in some complex, really almost unknowable, messy way. But it's this beautiful miracle that's been passed down and handed down to us from generation to generation. And in it we find Jesus, but it's. We hold that with humility. And I could tell one of them was happy with the answer and one of them was just a little bit unsettled with it. And we just kept talking together. But it's making space and looking for those kind of connections and conversations that we can have about our faith with our kids that I think for me, I make a lot of mistakes. But I'm proud of those conversations and questions that we get to ask together.
- [51:48]
A
And it's cool to think you're on the same kind of path. Right?
- [51:51]
B
Right.
- [51:51]
A
We're not. We don't have all the answers. Still don't have it.
- [51:54]
B
But it's a fun journey. It's a good journey.
- [51:56]
A
One more question about Acts, if that's okay.
- [51:58]
B
Yes, please.
- [51:58]
A
You talked a little bit about Ananias since Fire.
- [52:01]
B
I was wondering why we hadn't got any questions about it.
- [52:03]
A
We didn't get tons of. But there is one here. But I'm going to change the character. There's some about Ananias and Sapphire. You spent some time there. But let's. I feel like this person says, I feel like the apostles were a little hard on Simon the sorcerer. Was he given a fair chance to change? And what are your thoughts on that? Like, should they have been so hard? Should they have walked in a little more grace? What are your thoughts?
- [52:26]
B
Yeah, there's many scholars, modern day scholars who think. Who agree with that. Take whoever said that. That, yeah, that was a little harsh. And the harshness continues into the near future of the Church of Church history, where I said, simon Magus gets blamed for a lot of. A lot of the heresies that took root in the early church. For some reason, they just latched on to this guy. And so many modern scholars would say, yeah, this was prob. There's some sort of bias here. And some kind of made him a scapegoat because we don't see. See the reason for it. And that's what humans do. Right. Like, that's just we people who are following after Jesus are still humans. And I scapegoat people. Even though I talk about talk against it all the time, I still do it because I have biases and I have people that are kind of represent for me, like, ah, that's the epitome of ugliness right there. Seems like that's what they did with Simon, perhaps. The Bible's complex and we get to learn from it and the good things that the people in the Bible did and maybe some of the things, the shortcomings and the brokenness. Peter is a broken dude who God used in profound ways. And that gives me great encouragement. Right. But yeah, that's a complex passage and maybe not be all the way fair to Simon as well. And I love that we can, we have a church where we can see that and recognize it and have conversations about it. That's not normal, just so we know.
- [53:51]
A
And I think it also asks the question of yourself, like, where have you done that and been a little bit unfair and not real grace filled or mercy filled. And it reflects. It's a mirror.
- [54:00]
B
How many, how many, how many of us would say this? Because I would certainly say this. The people that I have the biggest problems with, the people that I other more than any other, are Christians, because probably I expect the most of them and I've been disappointed more by them or I felt like I've been let down by them, or you can go down the list. And that's my deal. That's for me to grow in and to find healing in and to humanize the people who are so profoundly disappointing to me and the people who anger me, the people who just drive me nuts, Those are the ones that I want to not bring in that bias. I want to actually to be able to love them and listen to them even still. Right?
- [54:46]
A
Yeah.
- [54:46]
B
Is that it?
- [54:47]
A
Yep. That's hard. Well, you have just like two, three minutes left and I'm just going to put this question to you.
- [54:53]
B
If you look at the real time,
- [54:56]
A
it's talking about Bruceti's partnership with the Gallos. For those of you that don't know, we have a sister church partnership with a church in Celta, Argentina, and Lucio and Amanda Gaijo are their pastors. And it says here, it's beautiful. But how did you navigate any challenges that joining the pen see, or our beliefs may have brought to that relationship? I'll close this and let you be the last question.
- [55:19]
B
Great. Sounds good. Thank you, Shelley. We approach the relationship. So like Shelley said, we have. There's some great friends, Lucy and Amanda Gajo, who lead a church in Salta, Argentina. There's actually a multi site church in this area. And they come from a completely different culture and are wrestling with different things from us and believe different things than us. Whether it's about women in ministry, whether it's about sexuality, human sexuality, whether it's about a number of things. And what we've seen, what two things have happened through the course of us being in relationship with Iglesia Christiana Missionetta is that they have changed over the course of. How long has this been? 15 years? Ish. 12 years. They have changed and evolved and grown over the course of those years. I could tell you concrete ways in which what they believe and what we hear from them has changed. And I will tell you they would say the exact same thing about us, that they have changed, they have grown, they are different than when they first showed up 12 years ago. And I think having normalizing that and doing that in relationship, not trying to hide that, is what we have done. So whenever a big change happens around here, when we left evangelicalism and said we're dropping evangelicalism, before we did a sermon series, we talked to them and we told them this is the direction that we're moving in. When we turned into an inclusive and affirming church, before we announced that to the church, we talked to Lucio and Amanda and had a conversation with them and told them what we're doing and why we're doing it. And it wasn't a new conversation at that point. So I just believe that we can change and grow and walk together and be in different places at different times. If we're actually mature enough to do that in relationship and to not base our relationship based on. We have to believe all the exact same things as churches or as Christians. If I'm going to be at a church, I have to agree with every single thing that my church says. Or if we're going to be in a relationship globally with another church, we have to agree on everything that our churches believe. That's silliness, I think, because it's impossible. Talking about different cultures and different people and all sorts of different experiences and nuances. And so we've just built that into the relationship, is that our relationship is more important than the little particular things of what we believe. Right. We care for one another. And because we've done that relational groundwork, it gets easy then to change and to grow and evolve and do that together. As churches on different parts of the world, but we also get to learn from one another. They're also kind of a check and a balance for us to say there's parts of the world where this conversation is different and we need to learn from that, and they get to do that from us. And guess what? There's conversations that I've had when I've gone to Argentina that I can have with some of their folks that maybe they don't feel ready to have even with some of the people on the ground there because of the way we see things and the differences. And that's the beauty of these relationships, is we get to complement one another. Just like in relationships with churches, just like in real relationships and marriages, we're trying to do that in the best way possible, in the most mature way. And so it hasn't been an issue. Thanks be to God. Because of, I think, the maturity of them and because of the way we've been doing this. All of this is to say the church is this thing going back to the very beginning where we started. I think the church is something that I'm not willing to give up on. And through all these changes and all evolutions, the Bible isn't something I'm willing to give up on. And this faith journey isn't something I'm willing to give up on. That's why I'm glad to do this with you, friends. So if you're able, let's stand one more time. We're going to just. I'm going to pray a short prayer and we're gonna sing one more song together just to punctuate our morning and our time together. God, thank you for a place called church where we can ask questions, where we can come to the table and remember and center you, Jesus, where we can wrestle with the scriptures, where we can talk about how we raise our kids in the faith and how we navigate relationships and how we navigate this thing called Christianity and following youg, Jesus, come and help us, Holy Spirit, and thank you for all of who is represented here. Would you walk with us? Would you guide us? Would you shape us according to your goodness, your life, your scriptures, you, the way, the truth and the life, Jesus. And so we sing to you one more time together.
- [60:00]
A
Thank you again for being with us. We would love to have you join us if you are ever in the Milwaukee area. And we hope you have a healthy place to gather wherever you are from.