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Broadway Breakdown
2024 Tony Nominees: What We Predict vs. What We Want (w/ Dan Rubins)
02:20:28
Tony predictions
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- [00:00]
A
Think of the prestige. Think of the respect.
- [00:03]
B
No, no, no. Think of the Tony.
- [00:11]
A
Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we are continuing our Tony series until we get to that fateful at the David Koch Theater. And with me today is a writer, a critic. You might have read some of his reviews for Slant magazine. He has his own podcast, the present Stage. He's an outer critics circle. Nominator and voter or just nominator? Both. Yes. He's. He's nodding. Both. He's. He do the. Both.
- [00:52]
B
This is my first time as a nominator, so I think I vote I'll find out.
- [00:55]
A
No, I'm pretty sure you do. I'm pretty sure. I think that's how it works. And then he also has a nonprofit hear your song, which he'll talk about towards the end of the episode. But today he's here to talk with me about our absolute final Tony predictions, as well as the prediction as well as the Tony nominations we would do. Please welcome to the pod. Dan Rubins. Hi, Dan.
- [01:12]
B
Thank you so much for having me, Matt. I am a frequent listener of your podcast, and it's very cool to hear the intro live.
- [01:20]
A
Live and in zoom.
- [01:22]
B
Yeah, it's like going to a. I've been to some of the, like, late show tapings, and it's like seeing Colbert in person.
- [01:29]
A
Oh, wow. I. I don't know if I can say that, but it's definitely. You're seeing some of how the sausage gets made. I think you'll be a little disappointed at the end because they'd be like, oh, it's just. It's how it sounds on the podcast. Like, he's. He. There's no. There's no magic trick. He just sort of. He'll edit some things out, but mostly it's just what it is. So, Dan, you have been seeing pretty much everything this season. You've seen everything at this point.
- [01:54]
B
I have now seen everything, except I obviously didn't see Illinois on Broadway because it hasn't started performances on Broadway, but seen it off Broadway.
- [02:03]
A
Yeah, you saw it at the Armory, and it's the same show, so. Yeah. And I mean, I saw Hell's Kitchen at the Public, and my friend who works at the Shubert said it's 95% the same show. And I said That's a shame. And. But, you know, they just got some solid reviews last night that I don't understand. But we'll talk about that in a second. Great. Fantastic. So, Dan, we're going to do, as I said, we're going to do our final ultimate predictions because in between the recording of this episode and the episode I just did with David lynch and the Tony committee came out with some new eligibility rulings, which luckily Dave and I were pretty much on the pulse for. But anyone who listened to that episode knows, like, Dave and I kind of had to do two different roads for certain categories because we're like, well, Betsy, item, we don't know yet. Featured lead Marianne Plunkett, featured lead. We don't know. But now we know. And there are really only a couple of shows left to do rulings on, but I think they're pretty obvious where people will go. So we're going to do our predictions, our absolute final predictions, as well as how we would do the categories if we were totally in charge of the nominations. Because what people don't realize when they come out with fire about nominations is that it's not one person making decisions, it's a whole group of people who vote separately and then those votes get tallied.
- [03:15]
B
I also think that there's a sense of, like, that the, the taste of nominators will somehow coalesce around some sort of norm or some sort of general communal consensus, when, in fact, it's just as you said, individual people who are may just really love one performer coming into the season and. Or really love one sound design that no one else noticed and can really just.
- [03:45]
A
Yeah, well. And that's something that I.
- [03:47]
B
Speaking.
- [03:47]
A
So speaking about a critic circle, which we don't. We simply cannot spoil. But you know, what I've always talked about with the Tonys is that it's not the same as the Oscars because the quote unquote precursors for Tony Awards, the Drama Desk, the Outer Critics Circle, the Drama League, they are all very different nominating and voting bodies. There's no overlap. So a show can get a lot of Outer Critics Circle or a lot of Drama Desk nominations and then come up short on Tony nomination day. It happens, actually. I would say it kind of happens every year. There's like always one show that does really well, those first two, and then not as well on Tony's and then one or two shows that don't do well in the first two and then do really well with the nominations. And they're always fun because you can Sort of sometimes see where the momentum is going. But I always give that caveat for people. You know, it's. They're all just different bodies with different tastes. So, you know, sometimes one person will get nominated for distinguished performance at the Drama League and then nominated out of Critics Circle and Drama Desk and then not get nominated for the Tony and people get mad and I go, it's not one person who said you. Yes, yes. No. It's like a total of 140 different people. Right.
- [04:56]
B
And I also think that for like outer critics, Andromedas, without getting into any of the specifics of our. Of our nominator community or our decisions, I feel like critics naturally are a. Making their opinions public throughout the year. They're not kind of saving it until one round of votes at the end. Yeah, there's sort of a sense of like what we believe, what we put in print early on is sort of how we might vote later on because we've sort of committed to opinions and are working hard to convince other people of them all year. And also, looking at the nominator list for the Tonys, they are spread from across many different facets of the industry, so may come in with really strong feelings about specific categories or specific art forms that they specialize in in a different way. So just sort of the. The focus might be quite different. And they also probably know a lot of the community personally even better than we do too.
- [05:51]
A
And the Drama desk nominating committee is. Is pretty small. I think it's like nine or ten people. And I believe they. They come together to nominate, like they have a meeting and they sort of figure out the nominations together. The Tony nominating Committee, it's. I mean, I think it's a total of between 50 and 75, but that number shrinks over the year, over the season, depending on how many people have to recuse themselves.
- [06:12]
B
Because I looked at that list and was like, oh, Whitney White should not be voting in for her best director of play. Exactly.
- [06:18]
A
And then on and then. And again on top of that, everyone votes separately. And. Yeah, so. And as you said, it's a slew. So it's. They make sure to have a mix of actors, writers, designers, directors, producers, you know, agents, things like that. They want to make sure that all different points of views are included. So it's fun. And with that in mind, Dan, we have two separate points of views, so we're going to talk about our predictions and what we want. You are the guest, so why don't you start us off with A category that you would love to jump into.
- [06:46]
B
Great. I kind of feel like just sort of setting the. Setting the ground rules with one of the big show categories. Why don't we. Why don't we do best Play?
- [06:57]
A
Best Play. Okay, here we go. Let me. I have a little sheet that I kept from the last episode. So best Play. We have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. 10 candidates.
- [07:10]
B
Yep.
- [07:11]
A
The committee hasn't officially decided on Mary Jane, but I think I'm. I'm 99% sure it'll be considered a new play, so we're keeping it in there. This means we've got five nominations for the category. Yeah. Okay, so give me the five you think will happen in the five you would want to happen.
- [07:27]
B
Okay. So I kind of separated my things into, like, locks. What I thought was in contention and what I thought had no chance. So my two foreshore locks are stereophonic, obviously. And then I don't see a world where Jaja's African hair braiding doesn't get nominated. So those are two.
- [07:42]
A
You made me so happy right now.
- [07:44]
B
Then I have. Then there are four that could happen, and I have to pick three. My three right now predicting are Mary Jane, Patriots, and Prayer for the French Republic, which not mother play.
- [07:57]
A
I have the same five for my predictions. I see Mother played today, so I cannot tell you whether I would make it in my, like, wannabe five. I mean. I mean, you can tell me if it would be in your wannabe five.
- [08:10]
B
It would not be in my five. I think it's a production that people will be really excited about the performances and more divided about the play itself.
- [08:19]
A
That's. I mean, I'm a Vogel fan, so that's a shame. But, you know, again, sometimes your pancake isn't as good as the last one, but you can make another good one in the future. Okay. So I'm gonna say. Honestly, I will say that my five predictions are also the five that I want, because, you know, as. As long as Jaja is in there with Stereophonic, I will be a very happy boy because Jaja was so delightful. It was glorious. And then Stereophonic is the exact same, just a very different kind of show. And I'm to have both of those plays this season. I was very thrilled. Patriots, I admired. I wasn't engrossed. But it's. It's not a bad play. It's a. It's a good play, and it's a British import, so I think it's obviously getting in Prayer for the French Republic. I liked that. A little more off Broadway than on Broadway. Did you see both?
- [09:06]
B
Yeah, I. So actually, I don't have Prayer for the French Republic in my five. I would select.
- [09:12]
A
Oh, what? What would you kick it out for?
- [09:14]
B
You're gonna be disappointed in me already. I would have the Shark is Broken in my fifth spot because I found I continue to feel that Prayer for the French Republic, while I admire a lot of it, and I actually liked it better on Broadway than Off Broadway. Interestingly interesting because I just felt more, for obvious sort of contemporary news reasons, felt more just like hooked into the actual subject matter, the conversations, or felt more alert to them, I guess. Audience member. But I still feel like so much of the play feels to me like we're just putting debates into people's bodies and not fully sort of living in these characters or these relationships. And the shark is broken. At least. I had seen Jaws for the first time the night before I saw it and was like, this is fascinating director's commentary on the making of Jaws.
- [10:15]
A
It's like barely about the making of Jaws, though. It's mostly about these three dudes with daddy issues.
- [10:20]
B
Sure. But I found it. I found it on. There was nothing about it that I was deeply distressed by. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm distressed by Prayer for the French Republic, but I wasn't disappointed in it. It was basically what I expected it to be like. I thought could have been tighter. Although I will say I was even more deeply. I was more deeply moved by the sort of connections between the historical scenes and the contemporary scenes in Prayer for the Public on Broadway than I was off.
- [10:47]
A
I think my issue with Prayer for the French Republic with Broadway. So when I saw it off Broadway, you know, we were. We were still. It was the season. We all were coming back from COVID so everyone was sort of just like on tiptoes and not really knowing what anything was going to be. And my friend took me and we're like, oh, God, Joshua Harmon wrote an over three hour play. What's that gonna be like? Because I like Josh Harmon. Like, I'm like, someone let that man write for three and a half hours. And we sat there and you're like, oh, this is actually pretty engrossing and like. And fun. And I'm like, the time's kind of flying by. So we were very pleased. And then when it moved to Broadway, first of all, half the cast is different, and I think some of the casting changes were for the weaker and. Yeah. And also just being on a larger stage With a bit more distance, I just could sense a bit more air in the play. And, you know, I think could have been tighter. And, you know, stereophonic has a moment or two where it dips a little bit, but only moments. And even the dips, they're not unengrossing. It's just like, this isn't as, like, gripping as five minutes ago, but I'm still invested. But Shark is broken. I'm going to let you have that. I think I'm going to let you have that enjoyment, and I'll have you put that in your. This is what I want. Because you're allowed. You're allowed.
- [11:59]
B
It's your opinion, if Mother Play does. If Mother Play does get into those, into the actual five, what do you think? Doesn't make it.
- [12:06]
A
I think it would replace either Mary Jane or Patriots. I. I see a world where Patriots could actually divide a lot of people because it's very cold, in my opinion. It's an important subject matter, and it does a lot of things objectively well. But, like, it could be a prima facie situation where everyone goes, you know, the performance, great, the production great, less thrilled by the writing. And I. And so I could see that happening with either with Patriots, and I could see people with Mary Jane nominating Rachel, but not the play. Especially, you know, Enemy of the People, I think is a big contender for revival. And that's another Amy thing.
- [12:45]
B
So you haven't. Have you seen Mary Jane yet?
- [12:48]
A
I see that Tuesday, which I realize is actually their opening night. But a lot of shows in April right now are doing this weird thing where they do, like, a gala opening and then the day that the reviews come out. So I don't know if I'm going to, like, the actual opening opening or if it's just the day the reviews come out. Right.
- [13:03]
B
I'm not sure. But I will say about Mary Jane, for me, I think that was the play that of all the things I've seen in 2024, which is almost 100 shows at this point, I really Need Vacation was the show that impacted me sort of emotionally the most. And I think that was partly. I can plug my nonprofit later at the end, but I work with kids with serious illnesses. This is a play about a mother dealing with the challenges of raising a toddler with chronic illness. And for me, it didn't feel heavy because I know so many people who are living in really similar situations, and all the relationships were incredibly familiar to me. But I've heard a lot of people describe the play as Kind of relentlessly heavy, but also inaccessible to them, in a sense. And I think that the. While people will respect sort of the artistry of it, I think the actual, like, thematic elements may not resonate with everyone sort of equally.
- [14:01]
A
Yeah. Which is. That's a shame. I. I don't. I never can get behind people who go, well, I can't relate because I've never had to deal with that. I'm like, well, empathy is a thing.
- [14:12]
B
You know, I think it's more that people find it really chat, like, so, like, distressing because they can't necessarily connect to the experience of sort of living. Living with it or living within it. And so it just feels hard and therefore, like, over. Overwhelmingly distressing.
- [14:33]
A
Yeah. I mean, that's something that. I know when Day and the Death of Joe Egg premiered bothered a lot of American audiences. And eventually, over time, they kind of came to appreciate it. And that's a play that is more sty. Uses a lot more humor, I'm assuming, than Mary Jane, but it's a similar subject matter. You know, it's two parents dealing with a child who has a debilitating illness and sort of how they deal with it. And yeah, I. So with Mary Jane, it might just be with some distance and some time, people appreciate it more and acknowledge the good that it is. But that's the. That's a future that I have to get to at some point. So that's our play category. I am going to do best actress in a musical.
- [15:17]
B
Great.
- [15:19]
A
I am going to predict for best actress in a Musical, Kelli o' Hara for Days of Wine and Roses, Marianne Plunkett for the Notebook, Malia Joy Moon for Hell's Kitchen, Gayle Rankin, Cabaret, and Shana Taub for Sefs. The five I would want to do now, I see Cabaret on Wednesday, so I don't know about Gayle, but I do like Gail as an actress. The five I would want to do are Kelli o', Hara, Days of Wine and Roses, Marianne Plunkett, the Notebook, Ariel Jacobs, Here Lies Love, Izzy, Mikaela, Water for Elephants, and Malia Joy Moon for Hell's Kitchen. Those would be the five I would want to do. I have to wait till I see Gail to make that final decision.
- [16:06]
B
Okay, I have the same 5 prediction. I. Yeah, I think that feels like pretty sturdy to me. I think Gail Rankin's performance will be. Could be sufficiently divisive to make it hard for her to win, but I think not sufficiently divisive for her to get a nomination. I think enough people will Respond that she'll easily get nominated. But I think it's. It's a pretty. I found I. I thought of the performance sort of as like a Rorschach test, where it's like, do you see a clear picture cohering, or do you see a lot of, like, ink blocks that you're like, wow. A lot of has been, like, splattered at this, and we're gonna try to piece something together. And I think, for me, it didn't really cohere into a performance. Like, there are moments that were very sort of extraordinary and bold, I guess, for lack of a better word. But I didn't get the full character to go here. And it kind of feels like a performance that would feel different from show to show. Like, night to night, probably.
- [17:13]
A
Yeah. That's how I felt about Michelle Williams when she did the role. And it's sort of the production.
- [17:18]
B
Yeah.
- [17:18]
A
Yeah. So the Sally Bowles I've seen live have been Brooke Shields in 2001, Michelle Williams, Emma Stone, and then eventually Gail in a few days. And then I've, of course, seen Liza in the movie. And I went to the library to watch Natasha Richardson, and, you know, Natasha is just still. Even on a video in a library. I was like, this is the best Sally Bowles I've ever seen and probably will ever see. But that's a hard role because, you know, she's such a snowball of contradictions. And some actresses who are very brilliant have a hard time making the contradictions all seem like part of a unit. They just sort of. It's. They'll play certain facets really well, but they won't connect them. And I can imagine that Gail in a production like this one would be divisive. Who would be the five that you would want?
- [18:06]
B
Yeah, so my five are. Kelli o', Hara, I really did feel, was one of the best musical theater performances I've ever seen. And I saw that once on the Atlantic and twice on Broadway, and it felt like it grew every time. And then I have. I really loved. As I wrote in my review, I don't know if anyone else was quite as ecstatic. I thought Nichelle Lewis was phenomenal in the Wiz, particularly vocally. But I also thought the characterization was lovely. So I would have her. Malia Joy Moon, Marianne Plunkett, Shayna Taub. So basically just subbing out Nichelle Lewis for Gail Rankin.
- [18:39]
A
From my predictions, I have not seen the Wiz. The one thing that everyone agrees on is that vocally, it's great. I have not heard great things about the show itself, nor even the performances. But. But, you know, Dorothy is a role that's difficult to really make pop because you are the reactionary glue to everyone else's personality. And if you can make that endearing and magnetic, that's. In my opinion, that is not only a successful performance, but an extraordinary achievement.
- [19:10]
B
Yeah. I did think that Amber Rofin's book made some effort to make Dorothy have more like, sort of distinguishable character traits. And I. I think, to me, I just left that show being like, what an incredible performer. I don't think Tony nominators will probably be on that.
- [19:34]
A
Listen, if they. If they didn't feel that way about Stephanie Mills in 1975, I. No offense to Michelle, I don't think they're gonna feel that way.
- [19:40]
B
I did like Ariel Jacobs that I didn't feel. I felt. I didn't totally feel like the arc. Yeah.
- [19:50]
A
For me, I have Ariel as my five wants. Just because there. There are three performances here that I am just so locked in with. One is Kelly, who is giving, in my opinion, her greatest performance to date. I am very mixed on the show itself, but I am. I am full blown. Her and Brian are giving. Were giving two extraordinary performances in that show. Malia, you know, I have issues with Hell's Kitchen, and I'll talk about that later, but Malia and Keisha Lewis are also giving phenomenal performances. And then Marianne Plunkett, in my opinion, is giving the best acting in a musical right now on Broadway. Ariel, I loved in the first half of Here Lies Love.
- [20:27]
B
Yeah, I think I would agree with that.
- [20:29]
A
Yeah. When. When she's young, when she's. When she's innocent, as she's starting to get a little more hardened, she's good. It's the la. I would say it's the last third of the show that's. And it's not even that she's bad. It's just that she couldn't really command that third act of the show in the way that I can only assume Ruthie Ann Miles did. She didn't have like that.
- [20:50]
B
Yeah.
- [20:51]
A
But I have that womanly gravitas at the end. And part of it is that she is such a petite ingenue in a massive theater. I'm like, it's not your fault. Your 1000th the size of this playing space.
- [21:01]
B
Like you're.
- [21:03]
A
You're a Disney princess.
- [21:04]
B
I will say I thought Mackenzie Crooks was one of the nicer parts of the Heart of Rock. I thought her performance was perfectly successful. Within what she was given to do.
- [21:15]
A
She was fine. I will get to Heart of Rock and Roll and my wants later. She. I think she was fine. Again, similar to Nichelle and the Wiz, her part is. She and Corey are very much the glue of that show. And in terms of, you know, everyone else kind of gets to be big and they kind of have to be the endearing leads. She puts a bit more, like, quirkiness into it than Corey Cott does. And watching it. This is the director in me. There are moments where I was like, if we cut these two quirks, that third quirk will pop. So, like, cut those two moments. I call them Annalee Ashford isms. Like, cut these two. Like, and that third one's going to do really well. But that's. That's a director coming in and be like, hey, mackenzie. This is what I'm seeing from the house. Because she's doing what she's doing because she can't see the whole picture. Yeah, yeah, no, but I hear you. She does a good job. Okay, give us another one, Dan.
- [22:04]
B
Let's do. Since we're here, let's do leading actor in a musical. But can I take this opportunity to do a very brief rant about gendered categories and my proposed solution to them that I've, like, mapped out at various points is. And I'm curious to know what you think of this is splitting acting categories by new work and revival with an all gender category.
- [22:28]
A
Interesting.
- [22:30]
B
Because to me, obviously, maybe not obvious to everyone, but to me, obviously, there's no distinction between a male performer and a female performer preparing a role or performing a role. But there is some. Not always identical, but. Or consistent, but some real difference between preparing a role that is brand new and you're collaborating with the writers and a role that is a revival of a. Of a role that's been played in the past. And I've. And if you sort of map it out, it's kind of the same people just in different. In different competitions, which I think could potentially be even more interesting.
- [23:09]
A
Yeah, I think it's. That's sort of the tricky thing with me with art is every person will have a different perspective of, you know, what makes it distinguishable from each other. And I. I like that proposal. I'm sure they're gonna. There are like 20 listeners right now who are like, I actually disagree with that proposal. Yeah. And that's sort of. It's one of the things, like, you're not gonna please everybody. So I would love to try that out. I Would love to try mine out where it's just performers that I like and I don't care if you're a man, woman, lead, featured, whatever. I'm like, these are the performances of the year from the people I like. And if you are not in there, it's because I don't like you and you need to take that personally.
- [23:44]
B
I think that could work as well.
- [23:49]
A
So with that aside, your rant, you know, being heard actor at a musical, giving your five predictions I have I.
- [23:59]
B
My my for sure. Three are Brian, Darcy, James, James one Roses, Jonathan Groff and Marlee, Eddie Redmayne and Cabaret. And then I have Brody Grant, the Outsiders and Ricky Ubaida for Illinois who I guess we still need to find out where he's going. Feels like a lead to me.
- [24:17]
A
Interesting. Okay, I I had Ricky considered for featured with Ben Tyler Cook, but I haven't seen the show yet. I see it. I I have a double feature Wednesday. I have cabaret at 2 and Illinois at 8 on the 25th. And when I tell you that I'm pretty sure I'm going to die afterwards, I think it's just going to be so much theater that my body's going.
- [24:35]
B
To be because there's the extra hour and then the show is like three hours.
- [24:39]
A
But it's just long.
- [24:40]
B
A very full experience.
- [24:42]
A
Yeah. Okay, so Ricky obeyed it. Interesting, interesting. And then your five wants.
- [24:47]
B
My five wants are Brian d', Arcy James, Jonathan Groff, Brody Grant, Ricky Ubaidah. And then I'm thinking, I don't know what reaction you'll have. I and I don't know if he belongs in this category but I love Justin Guerini in Once Upon a One More Time and it felt like a featured performance. But since he was labeled categorized as lead, I wanted to include him herein. But I did. I mean I loved, I don't know if I loved but I really respected Chip Zion's performance a lot in Harmony as well. And Casey likes when I went back to Back to the Future was much more impressed by.
- [25:23]
A
So my five predictions are obviously the three locks, Eddie J. Groff and Brian. I'm also going to now put in Brody Grant for the Outsiders, which I didn't do last time. And I'm going to say, I'm going to say Ali for Tommy. Those are my five predictions. My five wants are Eddie, Jonathan, Brian, Dorian Harewood for the Notebook and Justin Guarini for Once Upon a One More Time. Oh, a show that I hated.
- [26:10]
B
I know you did as but he.
- [26:12]
A
And Jennifer Simard were the two people I watched. I was like, you understand the assignment and you're doing it well.
- [26:19]
B
I also loved Aisha Jackson in that show as well.
- [26:21]
A
She was good. I thought her role for me was, was a problem because it just, it. She was. She. That was a case for me of a charismatic and talented performer given a role that was not a nothing burger, but just like a confusing role.
- [26:35]
B
She.
- [26:36]
A
Because she changed perspectives every scene and it was like she was good. Justin, at the very least. Justin, his role. Well, I thought it was underwritten. There was a very clear vision for it and that probably helped him deliver his performance. But also he just ate. And Simard ate, even though they gave her character like a very weird about face in the last five minutes. And I was like, okay, no, some people just suck. You don't have to make it like, everyone's great if you give them a chance. Like, no, some people are awful.
- [27:04]
B
To be fair, I don't feel like I can fully. Couldn't fully summarize the plot of that show, but I enjoyed it very much.
- [27:11]
A
Moment you're allowed. Listen, I know many a gay who, after I wrote my review for it, fled in my DMs. And they were like, Brittany died for our sins and you need to. And you need to love this show. And I said I wasn't aware that was part of the gay bible, but okay, I was.
- [27:25]
B
I did not feel like I was that familiar with Britney Spears entire body of work going in. I mean, obviously some of them. But I felt like it fully, fully convinced me, I don't know of the theatrical potential. And I also.
- [27:40]
A
I think there's an. I think there is an. I think there is a good idea in there. I did not like the execution is.
- [27:45]
B
The thing I do appreciate with Once Upon One More Time, the, the. The jukebox musicals that rewrite lyrics to fit their own silly context. I don't know if you saw or heard about the clueless musical that was that the new group did like 2018 maybe, which significantly rewrote all of the lyrics from the 90s songs it was parodying. And I thought that was a smarter way to go than trying to like force lyrics to fit context. That.
- [28:14]
A
Yeah, well, I think it's. I think it's a fun idea. You have to. I don't know, it's. It's a, It's a double edged sword because there are some people, because they know the lyrics to the original songs, get mad when they hear the new words. But then I think if you're if your tone is correct, people can find it a fun device because I remember something.
- [28:31]
B
Well, sure, yeah.
- [28:32]
A
Yeah. With Clueless, the thing that people kept harping on was the what if God was one of us? Became what if Cher had no trust fund and everyone was like, what the is this? And I was like, I don't know, I didn't get to see it, but I was like, oh, no. I maybe I think in the right context that could be funny.
- [28:45]
B
I think I found that production sufficiently self awarely furious silly that it was effective for me. But.
- [28:55]
A
Okay, let's go into the plays. I'm gonna do best direction of a play. Great. My five predictions are Daniel Akin for Stereophonic, how do you say Lila's last name? Neuebauer Noer for Appropriate, Whitney White for Jaja's African hair braiding, Sam Gold for Enemy of the People, and Rupert Gould for Patriots. Those are gonna be my five predictions. Again, having not seen Mother player Mary Jane yet just on a. I like Ann Kaufman and I hope the Mary Jane is good. I would like to see her get nominated. And if that were to happen, I would maybe replace Rupert Gould with her. But that's, that's just my, my five predictions are actually kind of my five wants. I've realized that's. But that's just me. What about you?
- [29:53]
B
So my five predictions are Daniel Aukin, Stereophonic, Rupert Gould, Patriots, Lyla Neugebauer, appropriate, and then Kenny Leon for Pearly Victorious and Whitney White for Judges African hair braiding. Yeah, sorry, I was gonna say, I, I, I think our only difference was Sam Gold versus Kenny Leon. And I like Sam Gold's direction better, but I think Kenny Leon, the response to Pearly Victorious, whether or not it should have seemed to center very much around his work on it.
- [30:27]
A
Yeah, I liked both of those shows equally for different reasons. I think my issue with Kenny Leon's direction with Pearly Victorious is I didn't, I don't find him to be very inventive stager, which a director doesn't always have to be like, he's really good at keeping the tone of a show, making sure everyone in the cast is on the same page. Like that's his bread and butter is casting really well and making sure everyone is on the, you know, same tone. But for a show that requires a good deal of farce, I found his work with the farce to be kind of lacking. And that was my only real big caveat with Pearly Victorious because I loved everything else about it. So that's why he's not in my five wants, but I also think he's sort of my outlier of what could get in because he's also very well liked and Pearly was very well liked, and we'll see.
- [31:13]
B
Yeah, he's not in my 5 1F either. So in that slot I have Ann Kaufman for Mary Jane, and then I have Stereophonic Patriots. Appropriate judges.
- [31:21]
A
Yeah, I think Cromer also could possibly get in for Prayer just because Tony Nominators love a turntable. And any work that's done on a turntable, they're like, there you go. And listen, I love me a good turntable, but it's. It's like kind of comical how there's always one turntable, like, and more should be in contention. Oh, that. That. Yeah, that's the prize turntable for I need that turned. Yeah, I call. Yeah. As my. My friend and I call it the Teresa Rebeck and they put in quotation marks play. It's that. That felt like an overlong pilot than an actual play. But I digress. Okay, so, Dan, do you want to do another category?
- [32:00]
B
Let's do orchestrations, my favorite category.
- [32:03]
A
Yeah, you had said this in our pre talk that you're like, I've got a whole thing about orchestrations I want to talk about. And I said, girl, you go off.
- [32:10]
B
Okay, so here's my orchestration thing is that I think as someone who's actually dabbled in orchestrations a little bit, I think that people, including me, sometimes find it incredibly difficult on a first hearing of a show to know what they're a. What they're listening for, if they know what orchestrations are. Because orchestrations are never separate from score. In that any moment you're hearing score, you're also hearing orchestrations and you're also hearing sound design. So knowing the difference between I like the music, I can hear the music clearly, and someone has decided what instruments should play what notes and perhaps written additional counterpoint or assign specific melodic lines to different instruments to further the story is a really specific analysis that's hard to do while also evaluating those other things. So my feeling is that I don't really know what the solution is, but I think orchestration is kind of going to always be a mix of score and sound design for most folks that don't have sort of intimate knowledge of how orchestration actually works.
- [33:13]
A
Well, yeah, I think that's why in the past of recurring theme has been of the nominees for. For orchestrations, like three out of five are a best score nominee. And then Two tend to be revivals. If the revivals are, like, very blatantly different from the original, you know. And that's why I'm trying to think of, like, the last time a show got nominated for orchestrations that wasn't nominated for score or revival. Like, and not including Girl from the north country, again, because that was a very clear. Like, these are Bob Dylan songs that.
- [33:46]
B
Were making, like, 1920s. I think it's really easy when the instrumentation choices are distinct or when there's just something sort of big and symphonic, but I think the actual sort of artist. And it's also sometimes from show to show, what an orchestrator is doing versus what an arranger's doing versus what the composer's doing can vary so much. And there's really no way to know unless you ask the people working on it who sort of who did what exactly, because the music team can sort of. Those roles can be kind of over. Like, Adam Gettle orchestrates his own music as he composes bar by bar, which is very different than sort of what happened on Hell's Kitchen. So, like, yeah, I think it's the category that I feel sort of sort of craft wise, particularly connected to, but also sort of most frustrated by the sort of general approach. Approach to evaluating. Yeah, it's.
- [34:44]
A
It's very tricky. I mean, they're. And also, like, there's just been. I have. There are some orchestrations that I think are incredible that were never nominated, partly because, you know, it was. There weren't enough slots. But, you know, again, sometimes nominators just go with, like, oh, these three revivals that are very clearly different from the original. Nominate them and, like, are one score nominee. There you go. So, like, the Lachiusa Wild Party was not nominated for orchestrations. And those orchestrations are fucking fire. And it's insane to me that they wouldn't get recognized.
- [35:15]
B
Yeah. And I think also, sometimes people can think scores are better than they are because of the orchestrations being great. Yeah. There were so many shows this year, new scores where the orchestrators were working really hard to make. To make the scores sound good. I mean, sort of across the board. I feel like many of the new scores. The orchestrator. The orchestrations were stronger than the scores.
- [35:37]
A
Yeah, there are a couple of scores this year that I would, like, give a gentleman's, like, seven, which is me being like, you know, it's more six, but I'm being generous. And I think part of that is also because, as you said, the orchestrations really do help them. But, yeah, there hasn't been a score this year where I'm like, oh, yeah, this is the winner outside. Well, no, that's not true. I do have one, but it's not. It's very specific pick and we'll get to that when we get to score. So orchestrations, give me your five predictions.
- [36:05]
B
And the five why my five predictions, and I'll just slightly annotate them with why I think selected. Illinois, I think feels like we took this album and made it an orchestra on stage that feels like it'll happen for orchestrations. Days of Wine and Roses has a really distinctive orchestration and also sounds like the sound design I thought was fantastic. I think that'll get nominated. So Adam get older to their own whatever. I think Hell's Kitchen of sort of all the jukeboxes in or I guess there's not that many, but of the shows of that, I guess there are a few of the shows in that ilk. I think they're sort of the most significantly sort of transformative orchestrations. Suffs, I think, are just really great. Michael Sterman, who did Sunday the Park with George, legendary orchestrator, I think that'll get recognized along with the score. And then I think my fifth pick for prediction is the Notebook because it sort of has that sort of fluttery strings experience that I think makes Ingrid Michaelson's songs sound more theatrical than they are. And I think contributes and I mean, I don't know how much people will really think that deeply about it, but I feel like contributes to the sound of the score being having some level of variety to it. Those are my predictions.
- [37:20]
A
So I think. So I say this because I think Days of Wine and Roses, Notebook, Suffs and the Outsiders will all be nominated for score. And then I've got a fifth one that I'll get to when we get to actual score, but with that in mind, you know, again, yeah, I think three out of those four are definite orchestration nominees. Suffs. Obviously I didn't. I don't think I said this last time, but I'm pretty sure now Days of Wine and Roses will sort of get the bridges treatment where it's score, performances and orchestrations will be their nominations. And part of it is that it is ghetto. It is also a very musical score and very intricate and you can get a sense of the orchestrations. It also helps that Days of Wine and Roses cast album is out and has been out so people can listen to it.
- [38:10]
B
Does make a huge difference. I totally agree with you on that.
- [38:12]
A
Yeah.
- [38:12]
B
Having a cast album Notebook as well.
- [38:14]
A
Yes, it will help the Notebook. And I agree with you about stuffs. I think Michael Sarabin, being the giant in the community, he is. I don't love the orchestrations and stuff. Like, I didn't feel much about them, but it is going to be a very big competitor in the score category. And so I think that will help Michael's chances in orchestrations. Also. I don't know if Michael's actually ever won. If he's won, he's won, like, with a collaboration. Maybe he won for Kiss Me Kate. I don't. Or did Bruce Coughlin do Kiss Me Kate? I know I'm gonna look this up as I. As I continue talking. I agree with you about Illinois, and we'll see about Hell's Kitchen. I now that Hell's Kitchen is open to strong reviews. I think that they're. I think that they have a good shot at a lot of nominations that I didn't think they had a shot with three days ago. And reviews don't always equal Tony love, again, because, you know, it's different people. But what I've said in the past is sometimes really strong reviews gives Tony nominators permission to vote for the shows that they like, that they're not sure how the community is feeling about, you know, Mamma Mia. Coming out and being a big hit, as well as, surprisingly getting really strong reviews. Nominators like, oh, great. I had the best time of that show. I'm so happy to nominate it for book and musical and actress and not feel bad about it.
- [39:37]
B
Right.
- [39:38]
A
So I think that's something that Hell's Kitchen might benefit from this year. So I said Days of Wine and Roses suffs the Notebook. Illinois. And I'm going to say Outsiders with the caveat of Hell's Kitchen. My wants are Days of Wine and Roses. Illinois. The Outsiders. I'm going to. I don't like the score, but I like the orchestrations. Water for Elephants. And then. And I'm leaving my fifth one blank.
- [40:12]
B
Okay. I have five, plus two extras, so you can take one away. So my five wants are Days of Wine. Sorry, Days of Wine and Roses. Harmony. When I listened to the cast album, which came out before the show opened on Broadway, I was like, these are glorious orchestrations. This is going to win. And then I think it just gotten sort of subsumed. But I do think those orchestrations sound gorgeous. Illinois Stuffs. And then the Wiz, which replaced Harold Wheeler's original orchestrations, which are kind of one of my favorite things about the original score. Album, but in a really cool way that did kind of its own thing. And except for cutting the Tornado, which Harold Willer actually composed, I appreciated sort of what Joseph Jubert did there. And then I also thought back to my extras are the Back to the Future, the sort of sequences from the movie score, the sort of like get sort of a symphonic treatment that just sounds really cool accompanying the sort of car chase effect scenes. And I also thought the Great Gatsby orchestration was an example of an orchestration that helped the score sound better than it is.
- [41:24]
A
Gatsby is a situation where I just think because it's so big, some people, it's. Gatsby is going to divide people, but I don't think a lot of people. I think it's going to be more negative than positive. But the people who are positive about it are going to be very positive about it. And part of it is because it's such a big musical. So it's a big sound harmony. I have listened to the cast album once. I think it's fine in the theater. It did. The orchestrations did not sound like that. They sounded like a CD ROM to me. It sounded thin as fuck. But because the cast album is well engineered, people might feel differently on realism.
- [41:56]
B
I don't think that'll help it get a nomination, but it. It helps it win in my heart.
- [42:01]
A
Yeah, sure. Back to the Future. I'll let you take that one. I also, I actually want to say, I think that the arrangements on Heart of Rock and Roll are very clever. They wouldn't necessarily give them an orchestration nomination, but I watched it. I was like, they, they did some creative stuff with this music on a, you know, audible level. So I appreciated that for them. All right.
- [42:24]
B
One final thing is that Jonathan Tunick did get some precursor nominations last or some Off Broadway nominations for the New York Theater Workshop production for Merrily last year. I think that I. I am skeptical of whether we should really consider these new orchestrations. He. He. They are new from the original Broadway production, but he did them like 12 years ago for, for. Not for the Menier Chocolate Factory production for a different revival somewhere. And I. I just feel like it doesn't really count.
- [42:57]
A
But I forgot about tunic. I think I have tunic in there for Mary right now as well. Merrily is weird because he is eligible. And I think that enough people will just be like, I don't care about the logistics. Nominated. And they are good orchestrations. They. It is. I think it's 13 pieces. It sounds almost 20 to me. But that's also a sound design thing. You know, it's one. It's one less instrument than Funny Girl and sounds twice as full as Funny Girl was. Because Funny Girl's 14 and sounded like three.
- [43:23]
B
I don't dispute that. They're fantastic orchestrations. I just question whether we should count them. I think we should just give him, like, a lifetime achievement award.
- [43:30]
A
Sure.
- [43:31]
B
Like, cheers. Here you go.
- [43:32]
A
Also, I looked at Michael Starabin one for assassins, but that's his one win 20 years ago, so he could win for stuffs. All right, next one, Dan.
- [43:43]
B
Oh, that's me.
- [43:45]
A
Or did you pick orchestration?
- [43:46]
B
I think I picked orchestration.
- [43:47]
A
Oh, okay, so it's me then. I'm gonna do. No, I'm gonna hold off on that one because I love that category. I'm gonna do. Let's. You know what? Let's. Let's go down the line with design for Play. So scenic, costume, lighting, sound design for play all the way down. I'm going to do my predictions and followed by my wants, and then you can do the same and we can debate. So scene design of a play. I am predicting appropriate Patriots, Stereophonic, the Cottage, and probably Prayer for the French Republic. I would like to swap out Prayer for the French Republic for Gray House, and I would like to swap out actually the cottage for Enemy of the People, because the cottage had a very beautiful set that was not conducive to farce, which the play is not actually a farce, but Jason Alexander directed it like a farce, and there were only two doors and there were no levels. So while it was a beautiful set, I did not find that it helped that, but I found that Grayhouse was a very stunning set design that worked and enhanced the experience of the play. And Enemy of the People, while it is a simplistic set design, or it's a very detailed oriented set design, so it's not grand, but everything about it works for the play and everything about it's very specific. So those are my five nominations and my five wants. Costume design for a play. I think my predictions are Enemy of the People, Jaja's African hair braiding, Stereophonic, the Cottage, and probably Pearly Victorious. And honestly, those are also my five wants. I think those. I mean, again, that's one where I'm like, if Jaja can get in there for costume design, I'll be thrilled. And I think Stereophonics costume design is incredible. Lighting design. I have Enemy of the People, I have Gray House, I have Patriots, I have Prayer, and I have Stereophonic I think I would maybe swap out Patriots for Gray House. Did I say Gray House? As a. As an. As a prediction.
- [46:06]
B
Yeah.
- [46:07]
A
Okay. So. Oh, then I. And then I guess I would swap out Patriots for Appropriate, which has a very. It's. It's a very nuanced set design. Half the time until it's not. And the way that they. We were talking about this in the last production episode, the last five minutes of Appropriate alone is what's going to get a set design nomination. But it also should get it a lighting design nomination.
- [46:31]
B
But I agree. Yeah.
- [46:34]
A
And then. And then sound design, obviously stereophonic, which is, you know, they should just close up that category because, like, guys, you go home, you know, this is going to stereophonic. This. This play was written for best sound design of a play. I also have Appropriate in there. I have Patriots in there. I have Prayer for the French Republic in there. And I have. I think I had Enemy of the People as my predictions, but I would maybe swap out Enemy of the People for Gray House, which has a very interesting sound design. So those are my. Down the lines.
- [47:10]
B
Great. I don't know if I can remember everything you said.
- [47:12]
A
You don't have to remember anything. I don't remember a single thing I just said.
- [47:15]
B
Scenic design. I have Patriots Appropriate Mary Jane, which I won't describe, but you'll. I have. I need that because people love it. That's my. The turn. My turntable of choice.
- [47:29]
A
They have a turntable house and people.
- [47:30]
B
Like that and stereophonic. And then I would sub in. I would take out. I need that. And stereophonic, I guess I wrote down. And I really. Something about the doubt set just, like, made me feel, like, cozy. I don't know. The sort of. It turned and revealed things, and I was like, oh, this is nicer than I thought it would be. Just sort of like the warmth of that exterior I liked. And then the pearly Victoria set, I, for some reason found it, like, really deeply moving when the. At the end, when the sort of rafters lifted up to become the church.
- [48:04]
A
Totally.
- [48:05]
B
I found. And I mean, I cried at the Mary Jane set for reasons I won't get into, because I don't want to.
- [48:11]
A
Spoil it, but I know that there is a reveal, but that I don't know what the reveal is. So I'm excited.
- [48:16]
B
Sort of a themat to me, it felt like a really specific thematic reveal that I found incredibly effective. So I think that will get in and should get in. But I do love dots, so the appropriate ending didn't dots do the oh.
- [48:33]
A
Mary set as well at the Lortel?
- [48:36]
B
I think they did. And they also did. You will get sick at Roundabout Off Broadway. Yeah.
- [48:43]
A
With William Jackson Harper. Right.
- [48:45]
B
No, that was. That was with. That was Primary Trust, I think you're thinking of. But that was with Linda Lavin two seasons ago, and that had, like, a gorgeous set reveal at the end. And they also did Golden Shield at mtc, which I love that set. So dots. I always just get excited when I see dots and a playbook.
- [49:09]
A
Oh, did I not include the cottage for costume design as a prediction? That should have been in there. I don't know.
- [49:13]
B
I have that in. Okay, so costume design. I have Jajas. I have Stereophonic Mother. Play has really cool. Lots of costumes, as you'll see. Cottage. And then I have Pearly. Those are my predictions. And then I would sub in. I just put in appropriate because I just feel like that play just feels so live. Those characters just feel so lived in to me. And while costume is not the area that I feel most qualified to evaluate, I feel like that has to do with sort of their whole presentation. And then. And then I would keep the rest of my picks in. So just subbing inappropriate for Pearly.
- [49:54]
A
Yeah. I mean, we talked about this last time as well. It's really difficult for nominators to understand the intricacies of modern costume design. I can't remember the last time a play or musical that took place like in modern day got nominated for a costume design. It's. Yeah, there's like. What are you talking about? There are no corsets. There's no. There are no top hats. And so you, like, roll your eyes. All right, lighting design.
- [50:19]
B
Okay, lighting design. I'm predicting Patriots, Enemy of the People, Prayer for the French Republic. Appropriate and gray house. And I would swap Enemy of the People for stereophonic, which might actually be. What happens. Did you have.
- [50:38]
A
I have stereophonic as a prediction as well as a one. Because it's what I said to in the last episode. And I'll say it again here. Stereophonic for, like, the first 20 minutes, you'll watch and be like, matt, why did you put in a lighting design nomination? It feels like you're just, you know, butt hungry for stereophonic, but when they do their recordings, you understand. Yeah. And I mean, just the lighting of the first Scene of Act 2 alone, I was like, oh, this is because it's. Not only is it gorgeous, but it's also very tense and very cold. And you, like, you're like, why am I feeling so Stressed out right now. It's like. It's because of the lighting of how they light Sarah Pigeon while she records that song.
- [51:15]
B
And somehow the communication of, like, interior time of day, which should not look that different if you're inside a room without windows. Like, you can kind of feel what time of day it is throughout the play.
- [51:26]
A
Totally.
- [51:26]
B
Which is like sort of a. I guess, like a. Like an extra. Extra textual device, which is. Which is really cool and. Yeah. I mean, subtle, but really powerful.
- [51:37]
A
Yeah. You can totally tell when it's like 2pm and when it's 1am Right. And as you say, the whole thing takes place inside, so there should be no way of knowing, but. Yeah. And yet you do. And then sound design.
- [51:47]
B
Sound design. Stereophonic. I love the cicadas. Inappropriate patriots. A lot of noises. Mother Play has a lot of sort of music throughout that I feel like could get a sound design nomination. And then Gray House. And then I would sub in Mary Jane for Mother Play. I feel like there's a lot of sort of offstage sound effects that are really evocative that sort of helped build the character in the story really well. I have a feeling they won't get recognized, but I recognize them.
- [52:20]
A
Yeah, it could happen. I mean, some. What often happens with plays with sound design is if there is instrumental music played throughout. As you said, like, with Mother Play, that tends to be an easy in for them for a sound design nomination. And I always find that to be kind of bull. You know, I. As you said with Mary Jane, which I look forward to seeing the fact that, like, you know, there's very intricate offstage sounds happening that are important to the play that also give you a sense of environment that is great sound design. And the cicada isn't appropriate. And then the lighting and sound, they do every time they open up the folder or the book to see the photos, like, it's all just very, very well done. Yeah, I'm on board with all of those. Okay, before we go to our next category, we need to take a quick break.
- [53:12]
B
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the feet.
- [53:24]
A
And we're back. Thank you for indulging me in that quick break, Dan.
- [53:29]
B
I hear the Billy. I back to Duffy with you in the. In my head that that's how you.
- [53:34]
A
See how the sausage gets made. Dan is like, wait, where's the. Patty's nowhere to be found. Yeah, yeah. She. Patty comes in after I record to Loop in her. She's too busy. She's like, I will not sit there for three hours while you do your podcast. And I will do like. She's like, I will come in when you're done and post and I will shout it. Yeah, that is how she do. Okay, so we did the. We did down the line designs for plays. We've done. Okay, so so far we've done actress and actor in a musical, we've done director of a play, orchestrations, we have done best play. We have done all the designs for plays. Have we done any acting awards yet for plays?
- [54:21]
B
We have not.
- [54:22]
A
What. Why don't we do one of those? You want. Let want to pick one for us, Dan?
- [54:27]
B
Leading actor in a play then.
- [54:28]
A
Yeah, we know. I think we. I think we're getting four here, right?
- [54:32]
B
Because unless there's. Yeah. So my picks are Jeremy Strong and Michael Stuhlbarg, I think are going to be duking it out. And then I have Leslie Odin Jr. And Liev Schreiber. And I do not have Steve Carell.
- [54:48]
A
You do not have Secret and is that also your four wants?
- [54:50]
B
They're also my four watts.
- [54:52]
A
I. I see Vanya on the fourth. I'm pretty sure it's the same. I think Liv is the. Is the most vulnerable here and could get knocked out by Steve just for the sheer star power of. Oh, we've got Steve Carell. Let's get into the award ceremony. But. And the. You can tell me more about Vanya. Like, the word I've heard on Steve is that he isn't bad. It's just that that production is kind of a mishmash. Yeah.
- [55:19]
B
I mean, I felt in a way the reason I don't have him here is that the part, at least as sort of figure in his production is not. Doesn't really feel like a set, like the central role of the play, maybe not even sort of in the top three. And it really feels like Astrov and Sonja and maybe Yelena's play and he seems more like peripheral until sort of critical scenes. And it feels like the performance doesn't really kind of lock in in a way that kind of hooks you. And all these other performances clearly feel central. But I, yeah, I mean I overall liked but didn't love the production. And I thought as we'll get to, some of the performances in featured were fantastic. But I, I don't think that the performance is not sort of large enough just in terms of like stage time that I feel like nominators are going to feel obligated to go for the big name.
- [56:22]
A
Sure. That that can happen sometimes, which is a shame where like, due to whatever reason, a performance like is not really the focal point until the very end. And a lot of people will be like, well, you know, it took so long for me to recognize that. But I mean, I just, I'm also. I was very muted on this production of Doubt. I did not love it and I hoped that I would. And I think Leah was fine, but I didn't love him. So I, it's part of the reason why I feel like he's the vulnerable one in this category also, just because, you know, I think Jeremy is very much our front runner. But having now seen patriots like Michael is definitely giving him a run for his money and he should not be coasting at all. Like they, they both need to be bringing it all the time. And then Leslie was wonderful in Pearly, but it is closed. And you know, if, if the rest of the season were weaker for this category, I think Leslie could take it. But because Jeremy and Michael are giving equally phenomenal performances in shows that are currently running, Leslie is just happy to be the third lock.
- [57:19]
B
Yeah. To me it feels very clearly like a two way race.
- [57:22]
A
1,000%. Yeah, that's, that's fine. I, I'll, I accept that. I'm going to now do a harder one and do featured actor in a play.
- [57:32]
B
Okay. Yes, this is.
- [57:34]
A
And remember everybody, I have not seen Vanya yet. I have not seen Mother Play yet. So I'm going to go with my predictions and then my wants. And this is going to be very difficult. I have to put my boner for Stereophonic aside for a second because I, I'm going to be almost very guilty of doing in this category what I admonish people for predicting with Merrily for featured actress in a musical last time, which was when there are many possibilities. Why would you give three out of five to one play or to one show?
- [58:05]
B
The difference is that there are actually three really extraordinary performances.
- [58:10]
A
Dan. I wasn't gonna say it. I wasn't gonna say. Well, but like, there are five men in Stereophonic who all deserve to be recognized. And I would argue there's one woman in Merrily in that category who deserves to be recognized, but I didn't want to.
- [58:25]
B
We can get there. We can get there when we get there.
- [58:27]
A
We'll get there when we get there. So featured external play. My predictions at the moment are Corey Stole for appropriate. Eli Gelb for Stereophonic. I don't know what's going to happen with Will Keenan Patriots, because he is above the title. But I. And was put in lead at the Oliviers, but. But I think he's going to be put in featured here. So I'm going to say Will Keane for Patriots. I feel like those are three pretty big locks. I'm going to say Will Brill for Stereophonic, and I'm going to say maybe Michael Esper for Appropriate. I feel like Appropriate and Stereophonic are kind of sort of duke it out for multiple acting nominations. My wants. Here are my wants. I would like Will Keane for Patriots, Will Brill for Stereophonic, Tom Pasinka for Stereophonic, Eli Gelb for Stereophonic, and Jo Sanders for Probably Victorious. And I say this as someone who loved, loved, loved Corey Stolen. Appropriate. And if there's a possibility to get six, I'm putting Corey Stole in there as well. But I want people to remember how fucking good J O Sanders was in Pearly Victorious.
- [59:47]
B
He was great. I'm surprised because I've heard on other podcasts you talk about my favorite performance in Pearly Victorious, which was Billie Eugene Jones, who you did not.
- [59:54]
A
Billie Jean Jones was wonderful in Pearly Victorious, and I very, very, very much want to dehydrate him, but I, I, that was a role for me that were like, he did a wonderful job. But Jay was just sort of the impression of the featured. Like every. In, in shows like Pearly, it's like, which character gets, like the moment that everyone's gonna remember. And I think everyone's just gonna remember how that character. Spoiler alert. Dies and, and all of that. So. I know, I mean, I was, I was so gung ho for Billy for Fat Ham last year. So whatever. If he were to get nominated, Dan, I would not be.
- [60:26]
B
No, I. Yeah, okay, so my predictions are a little different. So I have Corey Stoll for sure. I have Will Burrell, I have William Jackson Harper for Uncle Vanya. Although Astrav has been ruled in lead in the past, I don't think that. I think that would be a silly thing to petition here because they already have a few girls. And then I have Michael Imperioli for Enemy of the People, and I have Jim Parsons for Mother Play. I don't have Will Keane. And that's partly because I found the sort of. I like, I'm interested to see sort of what the, what the critical reception is. I did not find that performance quite as sort of because I think because Michael Stuhlberg's performance is so sort of overwhelming that I feel like everyone else Kind of receded for me, so it didn't kind of stand out in the same way. It's something they featured. But my. My wants would be I loved William Jackson Harper and Uncle Vanya, as I did in Primary Trust off Broadway last summer. I have Billy Eugene Jones for Probably Victorious. I have Corey still for Appropriate. And then I do have Michael Imperioli for Enemy of the People. And then my last one, which is not going to happen, but I'm putting it in my. Is Graham Campbell for Appropriate, who played Reese. The Sun, I thought was phenomenal and was one of my favorite performances in that show.
- [61:53]
A
He was great.
- [61:55]
B
I think. Obviously has a smaller role, but I think the way that that character is sort of used throughout the play is brilliant. On Bren Jacob Jenkins part. And I thought the performance was fantastic. So I don't have any. I think just the stereophonic people are hard.
- [62:11]
A
Yeah. I think that's the problem with stereophonic is like. And I mentioned this last time, there's a world in which very few of them actually get nominated because they're all so good and nominators might have a tough time figuring out who. So, like, five might pick one a certain group and another five might pick another group. And then because that actually weakens their chances, other people will get in there.
- [62:32]
B
Yeah.
- [62:33]
A
Michael Imperioli in Enemy People. I liked him. I found him to be a little too Mr. Burnsy in a show where I found there was a lot more nuanced takes on characters. He was a little too grandstandy.
- [62:43]
B
Yeah. I will say both of us saw the performance that was disrupted by climate protesters, and I feel like my take on his performance was, like, very impacted by that moment where I thought that was part of the show for most.
- [62:56]
A
Of the people day.
- [62:58]
B
So I was like, wow. Like, that interaction really stood out to me as a moment.
- [63:05]
A
So when people ask you about. About that day about the performance, I tell everyone because they're like, oh, my God, what was it like? Did you know? I was like, honestly, the way that Michael acted, the way that Jeremy acted, and also just like the kind of director Sam Gold is. We all were like, it took five minutes for the entire audience to realize it wasn't part of the show.
- [63:22]
B
I fully did not. I ended up in a. I ended like the entire play. I. All of my notes, because I reviewed it, all of my notes for the second act were like, trying to make sense of the directorial choice to have this intervention and how I was like. But it kind of like completely shifts your perspective of everything. And like, then I'm only thinking about that moment. And even I was like, gaslighting myself. Like, the police came in. I was like, wow, Usher's draft of Police question mark. And then at the end, the press reps were like, waiting for the critics outside and they were like, please come back, see it again. That wasn't supposed to happen. Jesse Green also seemed to be. I was in a little huddle with Jesse Green and Naveen Kumar was also from the Times, and. And Jesse Green also seemed to be like that, that. That seemed like part of the show.
- [64:06]
A
Yeah, my. My. I went with my Tony Ro friend and we, like, went for a drink afterwards. And I had to text David the. My guest from last episode be like. Because he, as a producer on it. Because Patrick was convinced that it was part of the show, like, until, like, literally until after we left. And I had to show him a text from David being like, David said, it's not part of the show.
- [64:26]
B
Yeah, no, I mean, it did kind of work. And I. And I give credit to the. Adam Feldman and Time out had a great interview with one of the protesters who really described the dramaturgical decision making beyond behind that moment and the way they did it. And I think it was kind of effective. Partly they were saying they wanted more people to get tickets for it and, like, engage with the story, which I thought was an interesting, interesting route, but it was effective. I don't know.
- [64:52]
A
That is a Kevin Spacey Unusual Suspects twist of, like, in reality, we really just want more people to see the show. I'm like, okay, okay. I don't think people were not eager to see the show. It already had 8 million dollar advance in a climate where the most popular shows have like three.
- [65:09]
B
Because people are just like, for best improv in a protest, I give Michael Imperioli Imperiali.
- [65:13]
A
Absolutely, Absolutely. Okay. And then. Okay, I'm down with that. Listen, I would like a world in which I can give a hug and a kiss to every single actor in Stereophonic. I think that ensemble. That and Jaja and Appropriate are like the three best acting ensembles of the year. I'm like, can you all just like, duke it out in an orgy of acting? Because I would love to see that. Not sexual, like, just like, try to act out each other.
- [65:36]
B
I do feel like Jaja is. Well, we'll get to featured actors, but I feel like that's a show that I'm like, there's no way that. Especially if they're all voting individually and not in the same room, there's no way the nominators are going to coalesce around.
- [65:48]
A
Oh, there's. None of those women are getting nominated. And it saddens me, but it's. It's the reality. Okay, so do we want to do featured actress, or do we want to do.
- [65:58]
B
Okay, director, actress. Go for it. I am. I feel quite strongly that Celia Keenan Bolger should be considered in lead for Mother Play. You can tell me later what you think. And I. I don't know if I think they're all below the title, so they'll have to petition people up. But obviously Jessica Lang will be considered in lead. I think Celia Keenan Bolger should be, too. I don't know. It would seem crazy to me, given sort of how she's positioned in the play as both sort of narrator and central character. Not to be. But if she is in featured, she's definitely getting nominated. Carrie Young is definitely getting nominated. And then I have Natalie Gold for Appropriate, Sarah Pigeon for Stereophonic, and I think Francis Bennett moved for Prayer for the French Republic, who was kind of the, like, assumption early in the season. And I. And then I feel like, have sort of fallen out of conversation, but I think does have a good shot. And then if Celia Keenan Bulger is not eligible here, I. I would throw in Juliana Canfield for Stereophonic as well. I think this could be a category where they could totally.
- [67:10]
A
Yeah, I think. Yeah. I think Kara and Sarah are absolute locks. There's just no way that they can't be. And then again, the Mother play of it all. We'll find out, because you're actually the second person to tell me that. I mean, about how strong Celia is in the play and, you know, should be considered formidable in any of her category. So if she is that good, I would probably put her in there. She is beloved. She gets nominated a lot. I think that my final two. I'm gonna say Natalie Golds for Appropriate, and I had it as a prediction last time. I'm gonna put that aside today. And I'm gonna say Julia, Juliana Canfield for Stereophonic. I think those are my five predictions. Now. What do I want, though? What? I would like Kara and Sarah. Kara, Sarah. I want to say Victoria Pedretti for Enemy of the People, who I loved. Having not seen Mother Play yet, I got to put that aside. And I'm gonna also say I'm gonna do a six as well. I'm gonna cheat and do six, because we've gotten six in the past. We got six for lead actor in a musical last year. I'm going to say six. I'm going to say Natalie Gold for appropriate. And then I want to say my wants are Brittany Adebumola, I think is how you say her last name. From Jaja's African Hair Braiding and Nana Mensah from Jaja's African Hair Braiding. Britney is the character who has that wonderful monologue. She's the one who at the very beginning has to do the braids. The 12 hour braiding. Yes. And she has that monologue about her childhood sweetheart who became like a big pop star and her, her daughter and she's going to send for her daughter. Just like so endearing and beautiful. The night I saw it got applause when the scene was over, which was like that was the only time in the play that there was applause after a scene. And I was like, yeah, you get it. And then Nana is the one who has the bad husband who she wears like that red dress all the way down and has the braids with the beads at the front of her forehead. And she's friends with the one that no one likes and they have a very kind of toxic friendship. I thought her face, she had this ability to not be stone faced but like she's, it's not, you know, a like Carol Burnett expressive face. It's a very. She, she's very simple. But she pulled. Pulls across so much with just sort of being that drop down and it's. I have vivid memories of her face. So she and Brittany are like the two from Jaja where I'm like, God, in a perfect world they would get in, but it's not happening. Those are my wants, not my predictions.
- [70:01]
B
Yeah, well, I guess I didn't do my wants yet. The I would. Or did you do you?
- [70:05]
A
I did my wants and my predicts.
- [70:07]
B
Okay, so I would have Celia Keenan Bulgeran. I thought she was fantastic. Natalie Gold, one of my favorite performances of the year. I really loved Alison Pill as Sonia and Uncle Vanya. And I would have her in, I think she has a shot, but unlikely. And then in Mary Jane, Susan Porfar, who plays two, she also did it in the sort of original production off Broadway several years ago, plays two roles including this Hasidic mother in the hospital. It's really just like an extraordinary scene. And then from Jaja's, I would have Zenzi Williams who plays Bea, the mean one, who sort of has like the, the biggest arc in the play, which I think speaks to the difficulty of singling out a performance for this. And I guess if I was putting in six. I obviously Carrie Young was great, but I feel like she's gotten. I mean, I'd love for her to actually win because it's been enough years, but actually, my favorite Carrie Young performance ever was the Twelfth Night at Classical Theater in Harlem and two summers ago was phenomenal as Viola.
- [71:14]
A
I wish I had seen that. I'd heard such amazing things about it.
- [71:17]
B
And just let her kind of shine and star and do everything.
- [71:21]
A
His heart stopped beating, didn't it? That's that certain moments of this season live rent free in my head now. His heart stopped beating, didn't it? And the way she walked in those shoes. It lives rent free. Britney's monologue in Ja Ja lives free in my head. Natalie Gold's just shouting at everyone. Just living rent free in my head. And also Corey stole me. Like, what did he say when he's. When he just shouts at El Fanning? He's like, aren't you Native American? Or something, like talking about your people. She's like, what do you mean? He goes, aren't you Native American? He goes, no, I'm white. He's like, is your name River? So good. It's.
- [71:58]
B
I love that.
- [71:59]
A
Yeah, that's great. Listen, Feature. We were talking about this in the last episode. Featured actress in a play is perhaps my favorite category this season because there are so many, many performances that are just phenomenal and like, there are going to be five women who will not be recognized on the 30th, and I just have to be prepared for disappointment.
- [72:15]
B
You know, I did love. I did really like Victoria Butretti. I love Zoe Kazan and Doubt. She's not a performer that I've really been drawn to in other performances and thought she was fantastic in this. And April Mathis, who is a performer that I've seen in so many Off Broadway things I thought was great and Mary Jane as well. So. Yeah, a really, really. And also I do want to shout out Mia Katigbak in Uncle Vanya who has a pretty small role making her Broadway debut. She was the founder of the co founder of the National Asian American Theater Company and have seen her in so many shows over the years and she is killing it in that. So give her. Yeah.
- [72:52]
A
I also want to say I mistook an actress in the last episode when we're doing prayer for the French Republic. David mentioned Frances Benimu. I don't know how you say her last name. And I. I mistook her for Nancy Robinette. When we were talking about that show, I thought he was referring to Nancy, when he was like, that's my prediction. Because of, like, she's got that speech at the end. So I thought he was talking about the speech that the great grandmother or the grandmother does about, like, I beat the Nazis. He was talking about Francis as the daughter with her, like, 30 minute monologue.
- [73:19]
B
Really long monologue. Yes.
- [73:21]
A
Which is, you know, I've heard people complain about that and like, yes, it is very long, but, like, part of the joke is just how long she goes. And as someone who does go on tangents, I'm like, I get it. Like, she's, she's up her own butt. But. And I liked her in that show, but that's a hard character because it's, There are going to be people who won't nominate, who won't vote for her nomination because they don't like the character. And I'm like, yeah. Which means she did a good job because that character is insufferable.
- [73:46]
B
Yeah.
- [73:47]
A
Yeah, we'll see. I don't, I don't, I, I. There's one performance in Prayer that I feel very strongly about nominating, and I think we'll now get in, but we'll get to that. So I picked featured actress or you picked featured actress. I can't remember.
- [74:00]
B
I think you did.
- [74:01]
A
Okay, so you get to pick the.
- [74:03]
B
Next one to best musical.
- [74:07]
A
Oh, we're going to do best musical.
- [74:08]
B
Okay, we're just going to.
- [74:09]
A
Let's whip it out.
- [74:11]
B
Yeah. Oh, I get just. I mean, I go first or you go first, babe. Great. Okay, so my, my three locks are Illinois. The Outsiders stuffs. Based on the reviews and the, and the vibe in the room, I think Hell's Kitchen gets in.
- [74:28]
A
Yeah.
- [74:29]
B
And that leaves a whole bunch vying for the fifth slot. And I. And maybe this is partly just my heart, but I think it's. I am putting Days of Wine and Roses in that spot.
- [74:41]
A
Okay. And then what are your wants? Are those. You're also your five wants?
- [74:45]
B
They're not my five. My five wants are actually the top three. Yes, Actually, basically, yes. Instead of. Okay, well, this is your prejudge. Me. Now, instead of Hell's Kitchen, I would put in Once Upon a One More Time, which I just heartily enjoyed and think provides some comic relief to a pretty heavy season across the excellent shows.
- [75:10]
A
Well, then you get, you get, you get to do that and I get to do this. My predictions, Illinois stuffs. Outsiders. Agreed. Absolute locks. I think we've got two slots that there are a couple of shows vying for Notebook Water for Elephants, Hell's Kitchen and Days of Wine and Roses and also for that matter, Here Lies Love, I think are all sort of swimming around those two slots and it's like, okay, which one of us is going to eat the other one to get in there? Because Here Lies Love and Days of Wine and Roses both now closed. Well reviewed. There's. Those two are still the best reviewed new musicals of the season.
- [75:47]
B
Yeah.
- [75:48]
A
And I will say I know more people in the industry who liked Here Lies Love than like the Days of Wine and Roses. I think there was more admiration for Kelly and Ryan than there was for the show. And a lot of. I know the industry felt very let down that audiences didn't go to see Here Lies Love because people really liked that one. I enjoyed it. I didn't love it, but I enjoyed it. So I'm gonna say ultimately Hell's Kitchen and I will say Notebook. I do think that there's actually more like for that show than people realize again in the. In the industry. My wants. Not having seen Illinois, I am going to say Illinois just because I'm that bitch Suffs and the Outsiders. I'm going to say my other two wants are Here Lies Love. And you said once Upon a One more time. I'm saying the heart of rock and roll. So put that in your hat and put that in your pipe and smoke it.
- [76:44]
B
I. I will. I think that. I think that Water for Elephants may be underestimated in terms of the contingent that really like. I think the people that loved it really did love it.
- [76:58]
A
Yeah.
- [76:59]
B
And I don't know how strong that population will be amongst the nominators.
- [77:03]
A
So this, this is actually what makes the season so fascinating. There is no new musical this season that has everyone behind it, both critics and audiences in industry. You know, we've got our two best review musicals closed prematurely. And even though the industry, a lot of people in the industry, like both audiences didn't. Didn't care for them. And then we have, you know, Outsiders, which got very positive buzz during previews after being kind of destroyed out of town. And then the reviews were not bad, but they were sort of like respectfully mixed. And then Suffs got positive, if not effusive praise. Water for Elephants got an all over the map reception with the critics pick. And I know many people who hated Water for Elephants and I know people who are pleasantly surprised, a few Tony voters who really enjoyed it. I've met Tony voters who hated the Notebook. And then I've met people in the community who are like, I thought that show was beautiful. And then Heart of Rock and Roll, a lot of us went out being like, that was more delightful than I expected it to be. We'll find out what the reviews are like. You know, Lempicka is that situation. And, you know, we don't have to touch that with a ten foot ball right now. And then Hell's Kitchen, I mean, I. I did not care for Hell's Kitchen off Broadway, and the reviews were a little more mixed there. It's. I don't know. I. There's just. There's no show in that category where it's like, oh, yeah, everyone's unified about.
- [78:30]
B
This except Illinois, I think, based on the Park Avenue Armory run, which I can't imagine will be received any differently because it was three weeks ago or whatever.
- [78:38]
A
Yeah, no, it was so close. But like, once it gets to Broadway, who knows what Broadway people say?
- [78:41]
B
Because, I mean, my sense is that audiences were as rapturously responsive as critics were. And I mean, I reviewed it and was pretty. I don't think it was. I mean, as not a dance person per se, it was not the. I think for me, in some ways, outsiders and stuff made me more excited as a real musical theater, gritty score person. But Illinois kind of is perfect for what it's trying to do. And I haven't heard too many people not feel that way.
- [79:12]
A
Yeah, I've heard nothing but wonderful things about Illinois. The only caveats I've heard from some people are those who have very binary definitions of what a musical is.
- [79:20]
B
Sure.
- [79:21]
A
And. And so it's not them saying the show is bad so much as they're like, it's not totally musical. I'm like, is there live singing? Is there dance? Is it telling a story through both of those things? Is it musical? Yeah, I. I think that Illinois stuffs and Outsiders are absolute locks. And then the last two, we'll see. I agree with you. I think Water for Elephants has more support than people realize. I think Notebook is extremely divided. But it's similar to, you know, any show this season. Those that love it, love it, and those that hate it, hate it. So it's like, well, which one has two? Which. Which side is 2% larger? Because it's just. You only need that 2%. Okay, let us do book and score.
- [79:59]
B
Great.
- [80:01]
A
For book. My predictions are Sephs, Outsiders, Water for Elephants, Hell's Kitchen, and Days of Wine and Roses. Those are my five predictions. My wants are Outsiders, Suffs, Notebook, Art of Rock and Roll, and I'm leaving it at 4.
- [80:31]
B
Okay.
- [80:33]
A
I'm sorry. I thought this was a really bad year for books. So, you know, I, It's. I can't bring myself to put in a fit.
- [80:38]
B
Yeah. My sense is that everyone who loved. I haven't heard too many people say Hell's Kitchen was great and I love the book. I've heard people say it was great. Despite the book. I don't, I don't know if you've heard.
- [80:55]
A
I haven't heard anyone say that the book is good. But I also, I haven't spoken to anyone in person who's liked Hell's Kitchen. It's all been online, people that have. I've read who've liked it. So my bubble is clearly very small. Yeah.
- [81:07]
B
I mean, I went to Hell's Kitchen last week with someone who loved it and said, despite the book, I loved it. And I feel like it's a case of. Which is. Are always sort of interesting shows where everyone kind of observes the same thing and it's kind of. What do you value most? For me, I'm like, yes, the singing blew my mind, but that doesn't clear the bar for me. And other people are like, great Alicia Keys concert, why not?
- [81:30]
A
Yeah.
- [81:30]
B
So for me, my, my nomination predictions are Outsiders, Suffs, Notebook, Water for Elephant, Days of Wine and Roses. And then my wants would be Days of Wine and Roses, Outsider Stuffs, and then Once Upon One More Time. Since you're bringing out a rock and roll and, and Harmony, I feel like there are lots of issues I had with it along the way, but I ultimately found it emotional at the end. And so I feel like the sort of overall structural package worked for me. And then I'm curious about how people will approach Illinois because it's obviously not a traditional book, but they did hire a Pulitzer Prize winning playwright, Jackie Sallustri, who's an awesome playwright, to really shape a story that feels as well structured as anything else.
- [82:20]
A
Ultimately, that is what a book is. It is the story and the structure. People define it based on the dialogue. I'm like, well, no, it's also how the whole thing comes together. So, yeah, listen, if that were to happen, that would be the nagging of the season that I would be so here for. Because, like, if it's a well done, structured show, then fuck it. Yeah, do it. Harmony. I don't love the book. I will say it is a better book than some of the things we've gotten this spot Spring. But again, I. It's hard for me to be like, well, you were better than these five. But I Still didn't like you. Hell, let's hear My thing with Hell's Kitchen is if they get nominated for musical, which I think at this point they will, but they don't get nominated for book, then that absolutely, in my opinion, cuts their chances of winning Best Musical. Because so far there has never been a best musical winner that wasn't nominated for Best Book if it was eligible. So, like, Keeping Out Fosse or Amos Behaving but Contact nominated for book. You know, when people were like, oh, it's down to Strange Loop in six, I was like, no, it's down to strange loop and MJ because 6 didn't get nominated for best Book.
- [83:23]
B
Yeah. Which I thought I should have, but whatever.
- [83:24]
A
But I concur. New York, New York got a Best Book nomination. I was like, get that shit out of here. Put that on the fire.
- [83:33]
B
I will say while I'll let people judge the Great Gatsby book for itself, if my. I interviewed Kate Kerrigan on my podcast and after the Paper Mill production and hearing her talk about it and then seeing the changes she made since that conversation, I think is really fascinating because that book has changed the most drastically of anything this season or as far as I know.
- [83:55]
A
I applaud her for that.
- [83:57]
B
I would say most improved, for sure.
- [84:00]
A
I would also say, having not seen it at the public, but I appreciated all the reviews, pointed this out how improved Suffs was.
- [84:06]
B
Oh, absolutely. And I think that that was. I mean, yeah, I mean, I would say that the get the Gap for me was a little like, I appreciated it a lot of the public, and I feel like it was a lot of tightening and cutting and obviously a lot of new songs. But I feel like Great Gatsby for me went from something that I was like, oh, no, this misunderstands everything about this project to being something that I thought, for me at least, like, basically worked and got a lot closer to sort of what I was looking for as an adaptation. I know that you felt differently coming into the Broadway production without that.
- [84:38]
A
Well, I didn't see it at Paper Mill, so I have a very. I had a very different entryway. But yes, I. I have a very different response to that musical, but to that show's. I mean, I. I didn't give them credit for the fact of, like, it's really difficult to write a musical about a bunch of narcissists where not a ton happens and the bad people get away with everything again. It's like, how do you make that into a musical? And ultimately their aim was like, well, let's like, lighten up on the narcissism a bit. Let's give them a bit more inner life so we can write songs for them. And I'm like, like, on a. On paper. I'm like, absolutely. That's how you would do it. But, you know, it's. It's. I talked about American Psycho. It's like, how do you write a musical about people who have no inner thought? That it's just.
- [85:27]
B
I mean, I do. I felt like every time Nick left the stage, it was like, oh, now we're. We're at risk of losing the sort of. Of the narrative focus, obviously, because we lost our narrator, but there was basically no Nick narrator at Paper Mill. So, yeah, there were a lot of scenes that I felt did have sort of the. The focal direction of the. Of the book that I want.
- [85:51]
A
I mean, again, props to. To writers who take criticism into account and make changes, whether, you know, it's successful changes or not. I. I applaud that over people who fold their arms and go, no, you just didn't get what I was doing. And like, call it a day. Score. Let's get into the score. This one's a little more fun for me, I'm gonna say for my score predictions. Days of Wine and Roses, Stereophonic. The Outsiders, Sephs and the Notebook. My wants are Outsiders. Seths. Stereophonic. Here Lies Love. And I'll keep the Notebook. The Notebook. Those are my five wants and my five predictions.
- [86:36]
B
Okay. My predictions are closer to you than my wants. So my predictions are outsider stuffs. Stereophonic. Here Lies Love. Days of Wine and Roses. I'm going with two closed scores because I think that is a place to recognize heroes. Love. If it doesn't get in for.
- [86:55]
A
Yeah.
- [86:55]
B
Or Days of Wine and Roses. If one of them doesn't get in for a musical and then I have. My wants would be Days of Wine and Roses Harmony, which I did like the score, the outsider stuffs. And then just looking at the list, I would have to go with how to Dance in Ohio as my fifth score. I don't really feel that Stereophonic works. I think the. The way that it works dramatically is David Ajmey and. And not the songs themselves. I mean, like, the songs are good, but I don't feel like I wouldn't consider. And obviously this is going to be something that a lot of people are wrestling with in the next two weeks, but. And I. But I think it will get in. I don't think it should win.
- [87:41]
A
And it's what I would vote for. I'm. That's what I would vote for.
- [87:45]
B
Because I feel like if the actual. If you. I mean, we'll see how long the album is. There's not that many minutes of full, different music. I think what's fascinating about the way that the music is used throughout the show is sort of how you hear it spliced and put together and pieced. And that's. That feels like the playwright more than the.
- [88:05]
A
Well, I think it's. I think that's a collaboration because part of the. What makes certain moments exciting is watching the process of the songs getting made. And I think there's a lot of work that goes in there on the part of the songwriter of having to do sort of the song as finished and then alternate versions of said song to get it to that point. And then also how those songs fit the era, fit the characters based off of who's writing it, who's collaborating on it. And I mean, the songs being good alone, I think puts it above 85% of the score options here in this category. And then when you add everything else to it, I think it just makes it a very special case. And I'm very rarely gonna say a play should get score over a musical. And if I had to pick something that wasn't stereophonic, I would be. I would pick Suffs, which is probably the best musical theatery score of the season. And I don't love the score for Days of Wine and Roses, but it is very much a musical theater score. Doing a musical theater thing. I feel like a lot of scores in this category, even if I enjoyed them, are more about setting a vibe than about introspection. That's how I feel about the Notebook, is I enjoyed the music of that. But half the time I'm like, this is more about atmosphere than it's about.
- [89:22]
B
People, which is why I have Harmony and How to Dance in Ohio on there. Because I feel like they, whether they're fully successful, are doing the thing that I respond to most in musical theater scores, which is trying to really write for characters, voices. And I don't think either of them are entirely successful, but I feel like the goals are aligned with what I am looking for.
- [89:45]
A
I mean, she and Johnny have so much in common.
- [89:49]
B
That is indeed a lyric.
- [89:51]
A
You know, that that song, by the way, it's. The beginning of that song is the same as the beginning of Hooked on a Feeling.
- [89:57]
B
Is it?
- [89:57]
A
And how I hear it is because it's Johnny. We have so much in common. Johnny don't you agree? And it's. I can't stop this feeling deep inside of me.
- [90:09]
B
Only. Only so many notes. Well, that's why orchestrators are so important.
- [90:12]
A
Because that's not me reading them for filth.
- [90:15]
B
No, I know.
- [90:16]
A
Dragging them. But my friend and I walked out and we were both like, why is that the one line that we both can remember after the show? Like, because it's not an uncatchy score. But we're like, why is that the one? And then we, like, got a block away. And I went, oh, shit. It's because it's hooked on a feeling. It was just a very funny observation on our end. Listen, at least how to Dance in Ohio does not have the lyric, I may not be showing, but there's a baby growing, which is a lyric from Great Gatsby that fully took me out of my seat. And that's all I'm going to say today.
- [90:47]
B
Great. Shall we? Shall we onwards?
- [90:50]
A
Let's move on. Yeah. Pick a category, babe.
- [90:53]
B
Let's do choreography.
- [90:55]
A
Fantastic. Now, I've spoken about this before. Sometimes choreography people will go for most rather than best. And sometimes best equals, you know, not just creative, but where it's being pushed. But you have to take your own personal taste aside and go, okay. What are 25 noobs gonna say about dance? So with that in mind, Dan, you noob, tell me about dance.
- [91:24]
B
I have Hell's Kitchen, the Great Gatsby, the Outsiders, Illinois's Water for Elephants. With I guess Tommy being the one that I feel like is could substitute for Great Gatsby maybe.
- [91:39]
A
Yeah. I haven't seen Cabaret yet. I know it was very. I know that this production is very odd and many people like it, but those I know who have seen it have been very vocal about the choreography. So I feel like Cabaret and yeah, and Tommy are two that definitely could get in there. My predictions for choreography right now are Illinois, which is obviously the front runner. Outsiders, Water for Elephants. Because I feel like even those who aren't fans of the material of Water for Elephants can acknowledge that the staging of it, both Jessica Stone's direction and the choreography by that team are very well done and maybe mask or work very hard to mask some of those issues. I'm gonna put it in Hell's Kitchen, and then my fifth slot, I'm gonna put in Tommy as my prediction. My wants. Yo, you didn't do your wants. What are your five wants?
- [92:38]
B
My wants are Illinois, Great Gatsby, once upon One more time, which I hope you can agree has really great choreography. Maybe The Outsiders, and Water for Elephants.
- [92:50]
A
So my wants are Water for Elephants, Outsiders, Illinois, Harmony, and Once Upon a One More Time. Those are my five wants.
- [93:01]
B
Harmony. All I really remember is I'm like, jumping around in a circle.
- [93:05]
A
Yeah. Harmony does not have great choreography the entire time, but there were, like, four or five numbers in harmony because we're on. Carlisle's a choreographer for me, where it's like, when he's really good, he's really good, but I. But I've also seen him kind of coast or I've also seen him try to outdo himself, and it ends up sort of being not a mess, but, like, a little overblown. My issue with Hell's Kitchen is, like, there are four, and I love Camille A. Brown. I've. I've been on that train since Choir Boy. But my issue, actually, since once on this island. But my issue with Hell's Kitchen is there are, like, four numbers where I go, yes, this rocks. And then they're like another four numbers where I go, oh, no, no. Not only should there be no dance here right now, you're doing so much dance that I'm actually.
- [93:53]
B
Yeah, no, I mean, I do love her. There's. I think it's not. I think it's one of the. I think the. The vocals are more. The performances and the vocals and the arrangements are more successful than the dance at masking the issues with the structural.
- [94:09]
A
Yes, I mentioned it in the last prediction episode, but there may. There may or may not be a certain funeral sequence that happens where someone gets out of their chair to start dancing. And I remember guffawing at the public. And that's not what you want during a funeral sequence.
- [94:23]
B
You know, you also don't want strange people who don't live in the building entering a private funeral without going through security. And I don't know how that character enters that room at that time and.
- [94:33]
A
Then making it about them.
- [94:35]
B
Right. Well, I guess I know they're dead.
- [94:38]
A
But I'm having feelings. So I'm going to lift up my arm and get out of my chair. And I'm like, this is not about you, Claudia. Okay, so that's choreography. Let's get into some more performances. Actually, we have to do, you know. Actually, you know, what we got to do, we got to do down the line, design for musical. And then we got again to the rest of the performances. Before we do that, Dan, guess what? We have to take Billy.
- [94:59]
B
I beg to differ with you.
- [95:00]
A
There it is. One more break, everybody. Really? I beg to differ with you.
- [95:03]
B
How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of.
- [95:17]
A
And we back. Okay.
- [95:20]
B
Yeah.
- [95:20]
A
Because these episodes are long, we have to do two breaks in the, in the middle. So let's go down the line with design. I will do. Well, let's split this in half. We'll, we'll flip with scenic design and costume design and then lighting design and sound design. I'll do lighting design and sound design first and then you can do scenic design and costume design first. How does that sound, kid?
- [95:42]
B
Great. And, yeah, fantastic. I'll just follow your lead.
- [95:46]
A
Lighting design of a musical. My predictions are Cabaret, Illinois, Great Gatsby, Outsiders, and you know what I'll say Back to the Future. I think those are my five predictions. My five wants are Water for Elephants, the Notebook, Merrily, Illinois, and Here Lies Love.
- [96:16]
B
Cool. My predictions are Back to the Future, Outsiders, Great Gatsby, Tommy, and Cabaret. My wants are Merrily, as you had, I thought, gorgeous, effective. Back to the Future, Outsiders, Days One and Roses. Really loved the lighting on Broadway. And Tommy, with an additional shout out for how to Dance in Ohio, for having lighting that was deliberately accessible for neurodivergent audiences, which will never get recognized because it was deliberately not sort of dramatic lighting, but I think raises the question of, like, best for whom.
- [96:49]
A
Exactly.
- [96:50]
B
Yeah, I'll pose to the listeners and we can move on. But yeah, I thought the Merrily lighting sort of was perfect.
- [97:00]
A
Yeah, I, I, I have been very open about how I like that this revival of Merrily. I don't think it's phenomenal. And there are some choices that I don't agree with and choices that I question. But one of the things that I think is really beautiful is the lighting. I think it's really good about, you know, focus and time and for a set that I understand the reason why the set is what the set is. I also find the set to be very limiting for all the things they're trying to do. And the lighting makes it work a lot better. I actually feel the same way about Tommy with its design. Like, I, I do like the lighting in Tommy. It is obviously, you know, the polar opposite of how to Dance in Ohio, where it's like, yeah, not everyone can go into Tommy with that. But, you know, I found that the lighting helped focus the design a lot of that show. Sound design of a musical. My predictions are going to be Back to the Future, Cabaret, Tommy, the Outsiders, And Seth's My Want is Outsiders. Seth's Merrily. Actually, no, I think Merrily will get a nomination as well. I don't know what it's going to kick out, so I don't remember what I just said, but I'm going to. My wants are merely stuffs. Outsiders, Days of Wine and Roses and Here Lies Love. Because a lot of these, A lot of my wants are shows where the design was a crisp balance of feeling like the music was surrounding you while still hearing every word of the lyrics.
- [98:34]
B
Yeah.
- [98:35]
A
And that's actually how I felt about Here Lies Love, which was a similar concept to Tommy of like, you're at a rock concert, but without. With her Lies Love, I didn't feel assaulted by the sound. And I could understand the words like, Tommy is loud. To the point where I was like, I don't know why you hate me. I don't know why you're mad at me right now.
- [98:53]
B
Right. No. Yeah. I'm glad you have Days of Wine and Roses on your wands because I feel like that sound design just made everything. So whatever you thought of the score, the music itself, I thought it made everything so crystalline. Okay, my predictions are pretty close. I have Back to the Future, Outsiders, Cabaret, Hell's Kitchen, and Tommy, which are three Garith Owen nominations. I don't know if they have a control for that or if it just is what it is. But yeah, you had a good season. And then I have Here Lies Love, Back to the Future, Days of Wine and Roses and Outsiders and Once Upon, One More Time, as My sound wants.
- [99:29]
A
There you go.
- [99:32]
B
So.
- [99:33]
A
So now you're up now for scenic design and costume design.
- [99:36]
B
Scenic design in the musical. My predictions are Gatsby, Back to the Future, Cabaret, Hell's Kitchen, and Here Lies Love, some of which are assuming projections get included with sign. And then my wants are Days of Wine and Roses, Merrily, I guess Softs Back to the Future and Gatsby. Maybe Cabaret instead of Merrily, but I feel like that's more. More for the theater renovation than the stage itself.
- [100:08]
A
Yeah. My predictions are Cabaret, Here Lies Love, Back to the Future, Great Gatsby, and Water for Elephants. With the possibility of Tommy replacing water for elephants for scenic design. My wants are Cabaret, Here Lies Love, Outsiders, Water for Elephants, and Gutenberg. No, I don't. I.
- [100:36]
B
That reveal was. Was cute.
- [100:38]
A
That was a cute reveal. Yeah. But what would be my fifth? I guess. Did I say Gatsby? No, I don't think I said Gatsby as a want. I'll put in Gatsby. The design for Gatsby is. Is good. It's not as ornate as their advertising. It's. It's actually deceptively reliant on projections, which I'm not using.
- [101:01]
B
Cool projections. Yeah.
- [101:02]
A
I'm not using it to, like, denigrate them.
- [101:04]
B
They.
- [101:05]
A
They use them well. But the advertising everyone's going with it is like, oh, my God, we haven't had a Broadway musical be this elaborate in years. I'm like, it's actually pretty simple. It's a lot of flats and, you know, and, like, a table. Come on. With the paneling. Projecting a very detailed set, which is, again, that's actually very clever and something that Tommy does as well. And I think that Gatsby actually uses it better than Tommy. But it's one of those things where I'm like, I'm happy to nominate it for set if we all can just sort of understand that, like, what you think is a little. A literal set piece is not what's there.
- [101:41]
B
Right.
- [101:42]
A
Like, let's nominate what this is rather than, like, have an.
- [101:45]
B
Which I think is why there desperately needs to be a, like, video and projection category. Because sort of deciding show by show, where that goes is, I think projection video was with sound for Jajas or something. Because of, like, the tv.
- [101:59]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's. And it's so tricky because, like, sometimes the projection is truly part of the scene design. Like, it's so integral to what's going on. Like, I thought it was very. Not only smart, but the right thing to do to nominate Flying over Sunset for set when they included the projections as part of that, I was like, the projections really helped that set be the set. But not everyone's going to feel that way.
- [102:20]
B
Yeah. Wow. Not a show I've thought about very recently. Okay.
- [102:25]
A
How can you forget about Carmen Cusack standing on the lip of the Vivian Beaumont stage holding the severed leg of her dead mom? That is something that will always stand with me. Similar to Eden Espinoza running off stage in a wedding gown holding a baby. It's just there are things that you just will always remember your divas doing, and that's one of them.
- [102:42]
B
Well, I'm glad you already know. That's a core memory. So costume design I have Predicting Gatsby Cabaret, water for elephants, Notebook, and Merrily, which could be all wrong. My. My wands are. I feel like costume is where I have, like, no sense of knowing what other people are thinking. Days one Roses loved Kelly o' Hara's outfits. Great. Gatsby must have fun. One more time. Thought. Cool. Brittany. Fairy tale things. Merrily. And Cabaret, I mean, Merrily, I think is similar to, like, appropriate, where, I mean, I guess they're more obviously more period, but like where it's sort of not outlandish costumes but where the character. So much characterization is happening.
- [103:31]
A
Yeah.
- [103:32]
B
Full sort of design package.
- [103:36]
A
I think Merrily has a better shot at costumes than it does for Set in terms of a nomination because, yeah, for sure. The costumes actually do the best job of all the design in the show to let you know what period you're in. And I would actually. And as you know, I think the opening scene of that Frank has some really fun LA 1979 party costumes. And then when we get into the 60s and Act 1, Act 2, that helps a lot. But I mean, that could go. That could go either way because I think nominators could be like, oh, yeah, like Gussie stuff and you know, the. The female ensemble stuff. Like, that's all fantastic. Or they'll be like, I don't know. Jonathan Groff wore the same black pants and white shirt the entire show. Decline. So my predictions for costume design are Cabaret, Suffs, Great Gatsby, water for elephants, and Merrily. My wants are water for elephants, Great Gatsby stuff. Here lies love. And I haven't seen Cabaret yet, but I'm gonna say Cabaret, if only for that clearly rock hard red wig that Eddie Redmayne is wearing for the first half of the show. Every photo I see, I'm like, that is a helmet that he is wearing.
- [104:47]
B
I wasn't in love with all the costume choices, especially for Sally, but they certainly are striking and you'll remember them.
- [104:56]
A
There you go.
- [104:57]
B
I have the Notebook in there as a prediction because I felt like just the. I felt like it was a very important sort of storytelling device to have sort of the elements of their. Their costumes that were matching across ages. And also kind of did some period work too. I don't know if that'll get recognized.
- [105:18]
A
But I mean, I don't know if they can get nominated for John Cordoza's abs, but if they can then absolutely nominate the Notebook for.
- [105:25]
B
For costume design, Colin Donal and John Cardos.
- [105:28]
A
And yeah. Oh, I. I made that joke in the. The episode hasn't come out yet, but I made that joke when my guest David was like, I don't know, can Shar gets broken get nominated for set design? I was like, they can't nominate Colin Donald's abs for set design. So no.
- [105:43]
B
Great.
- [105:44]
A
Yeah. Okay, so that is done.
- [105:48]
B
We.
- [105:48]
A
What we have left is featured actress and actor in a musical, director of a musical revival and then I think actress in a play and play revival. That's so. Actually not that many left. So any of those that you heard that you're like, I want to tackle.
- [106:06]
B
Let's do Play revival.
- [106:07]
A
Play revival. Easy peasy, beautiful covergirl, Enemy of the People. Appropriate. Pearly Victorious. And that's also my three wants.
- [106:16]
B
Great. I have. Those are my three predictions. But I would put Doubt in instead of Pearly Victorious. Word up to me.
- [106:26]
A
Wow. Okay. Okay. Racist.
- [106:28]
B
I. I think that. I don't actually think that the play. I mean I reviewed it back in the day so you can. People can check out my review for more. More complete and up to date thoughts. But I feel like the play is itself is not that strong and yeah that the satire doesn't quite work as sharply as it wants to. And I, I haven't. To be honest, I haven't seen a production of Doubt before this one and I haven't seen the movie either. So I may just be responding to the. To the play itself being I think really good. But that is. But certainly. I mean I liked. I basically liked all of these revivals and would put Pearly and.
- [107:27]
A
I agree. Doubt is the better play. I think. I think Pearly Victorious is a slightly better play than you do, but I do think Doubt is the better play. I think Victorious was the better production. You know, Doubt, you don't really need to see the movie of Doubt. It's every. Other than Viola. It's a bit indulgent on the acting front. It's very, you know, everyone gets to kind of chew the scenery in freshman year scene study. And with the original production everyone was a little odder and not restraint but like everyone was just boiling under the surface and they would have moments where it would come out but it wasn't like. So whereas this revival, I thought I found it to be kind of tame. The movie is like there's no one has any restraint. Everyone's just like coming out claws, claws and. And fangs bare. So yeah it's. I think that. I do think this is an easy category though, especially as Vanya has not. Yeah. Then that I wanted it to be in our predictions.
- [108:25]
B
But which is fine. I. But I think I feel like for me I would award cast members for Burleigh, but maybe not.
- [108:34]
A
Yeah. Oh. I also realized we didn't do musical revival. So with that in mind. Revival of a musical. My predictions are Merrily Cabaret, Tommy the Wiz. My wants and you're gonna laugh at me. Cabaret, Merrily, Tommy Guttenberg.
- [108:50]
B
So I have those. I have the Wiz and Gutenberg flipped. So I'm predicting Gutenberg, but would want the Wizard.
- [108:57]
A
So one of us is going to be happy on the 30th and one of us will not.
- [109:00]
B
And message Spamalot, in which case I didn't hate Spamalot.
- [109:06]
A
That's not my musical. And I think this production did not do anything to convince me.
- [109:10]
B
I went in feeling it was my musical and was disappointed and just felt like I grew up on that album, loved it all, and didn't laugh at anything except Leslie Rodriguez, Kristen, and sometimes Michael Urie. And Gutenberg was not. Was not my musical. But I do think. I feel like of the three, there are. I think there are definitely anti Gutenbergers.
- [109:37]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [109:38]
B
But I think there are also people that found the two of. I think that's a way to. Since neither of them are going to get nominated, a way to recognize that event. Special event, I guess.
- [109:50]
A
Yeah, that's. That is something that. It's on my mind because I enjoyed Gutenberg, but I did not love it. I think, again, I think a lot more people who are anti Gutenberg would be, if not necessarily pro Gutenberg, Gutenberg neutral if that show were 90 minutes, no intermission, as opposed to two hours with a 15 minute intermission. You know, just know. Know what show you are and. And make it the tightest it can be. And I think the two of them are what makes that production work as well as it did.
- [110:17]
B
And.
- [110:17]
A
And everyone does love them. And that production was a financial success. And yes, actor musical is too crowded for both of them to get in. So nominating the revival is a way of nominating them. So I think that is a possibility.
- [110:28]
B
And I will say, having seen now everything that I think reports of Merily's being in danger are greatly exaggerated.
- [110:36]
A
I agree. I think. I don't think Merily's losing revival anytime soon. I wanted Cabaret. I have again. I see Cabaret in a few days. But just the overall reports of this revival have not been the. Watch out, Merrily. Even the people who have liked it have not been like, oh, Merrily's got something to worry about. They're like, I really enjoyed it. It's weird. But, you know, it's not gonna be for everyone. And that's what I expected. Just everything I've seen from London makes me groan. So I'm hoping that I, at the very least walk out of Cabaret, not hating it because I have A friend in it. I enjoy a lot of people who have been cast in this version. So, like, can I just walk out not being pissed? That would be great.
- [111:18]
B
Yeah. I don't think I was pissed. I was. I was. The build up atmospherically is so great to a production that is basically like a fairly standard take on the show. So it's a lot of, like, they've rebuilt. Like, the theater is so physically disorienting in the way that Love was too. But, like, even more so because it's like the entire theater and there's a mezzanine that was where the stage was. And you're like, how. How are there two audiences in this one theater? But the. But then there's not really any clear sort of vision beyond. We're in a very cool environment, which is great. And, like, the show gets to be the show, which is a great. Which is a really compelling work, obviously. And I didn't say, like, oh, this is ruining Cabaret at any moments. I was just like, better or. Or less great moments compared to other productions I've seen.
- [112:14]
A
Yeah. Cab. I mean, Cabaret is objectively a phenomenal musical, one of the greatest ever made. So if you do a standard production of Cabaret, it's not going to be a bad time because the show is so great. Merrily is a lot more heavy lifting for a show that is fun.
- [112:26]
B
Yeah. I mean, the work of Merrily on the. Well, we'll get structured, but I think that's. I will say it did. Cabaret did make me. I was thinking about book and was like, this book is so good. What happened in the history of musical theater.
- [112:40]
A
It's one of the best ever. Yeah. I think I'm happy with Merrilee winning revival as. Again, as long as we're all open of, like, they did not fix the show. The show still doesn't really work. We're all just more used to its flaws.
- [112:53]
B
I don't know if I, I, I. For me, as someone who is quite negative about Merrily and found it so cold in the various productions I've seen previous, I thought in New York Theater workshop, I, like, really was emotional at, like, every single song because it felt, like, suddenly warm in a way. So I don't know if it fixes it structurally, but I feel like it fixes it tonally for me because I care about the characters. And what I kind of ultimately felt was that it felt like instead of just being like, well, we know they're doomed from. From the beginning, so, like, we're just going to be miserable at the end, I felt like the ending, the last scene felt to me like, oh, that was one way that they could go. But like, they now could make different choices and like, this could turn. We. We care enough about these people that, like, we're rooting for them to, like, not go that route. And I've never had that experience before, so it felt emotively to me just like a completely different show. Even if I was still like, okay, some of these moments don't work. And some of these.
- [113:50]
A
And there are some directorial choices because Maria has done such phenomenal and detail oriented work on that show that every now and then there'd be a moment where I was like, maria, can I sit with you and ask you to maybe rethink this one moment? Because there'd be a 10 minute sequence from like, oh, yeah, like this is all well thought out and well planned. And then this one thing would happen. I'd be like, can we try that one again? But I digress. We'll get back to for that with director. Okay, do you want to do director or you want to do featured actor, actress in a musical?
- [114:18]
B
Let's do director. Since we're in the middle of the conversation.
- [114:20]
A
Direction of a musical. Give me, give me your five predicts and your five wants.
- [114:25]
B
My feeling is they're gonna get three women in and say, let's go for five. So I have Rebecca Frecknell, Maria Friedman, Donya Taymor, Lee Silverman for sops. I should have said Cabaret, Mary Elite, Outsider stuffs, Jessica Scone for Water for Elephants, because I feel like once you're three in, we're like, let's make history.
- [114:45]
A
Let's go five for five. Let's make history, baby.
- [114:48]
B
So that's what I got. For my predictions. I would nominate Maria Friedman, Lee Silverman, and Donna Taymor. And then I'd have Michael Griff for Days of Wine and Roses, which is my favorite of the Griff. And then I guess I have Warren Carlisle for Harmony, which obviously I liked more than you did. But I thought that staging held it together.
- [115:10]
A
There are people who liked Harmony more than I did and people who hated it more than I did. And I didn't hate Harmony so much as I was like, okay, so my five, I'm gonna say I think the three locks are Rebecca Frecknell for Cabaret, Maria Friedman for Marilee, who is obviously our front runner. Danya Taymor for Outsiders. Just like, put them in the bank. They're there, they're in the savings, they're in our Savings to be retrieved. Number one. I think Lee Silverman now is probably very much, if not a lock. She is very close to one for Suffs because that. The critical response was such that even the critics that were mixed on it, like Jesse Green, it was a mixed positive where he was like, this is good, if not great. He goes. And I want to just make sure everyone understands that Leigh Silverman and Shayna Taub have done incredible improvements since Off Broadway and that should be rewarded. So that's something to be recommended. And then I think for my fifth, I'm sort of on the fence because I feel like it could be one of three. It could be Jessica Stone for Water for Elephants. It could be Michael Greif and Shelley Williams for the Notebook. And I feel like it also could be Des Mackinac for Tommy. I'm gonna. Or even. Or Justin Peck for Illinois. I'm gonna put in Peck for Illinois just because if that show is as formidable as people want to say, they need a direction nominee. And so I'm going to give that to Justin. I haven't seen it yet, but I think, again, it's one of those things where, like, when it's your brainchild, people will.
- [116:44]
B
I do feel like. I mean, I think it would be very hard for anyone to articulate what is direction and what is choreography, since it's all. It's all choreography. And there's. And this book is sort of shared by him and Jackie Subluvia's joy in terms of, like, story.
- [116:56]
A
Yeah.
- [116:57]
B
Book would be cool in that it would allow five female directors and one Michael Greif out of. Out of three, Michael Griff. So I would sort of.
- [117:05]
A
I just imagine. I imagine like a photo straight out of nine of the director nominees. It's like little Michael Greif with his glasses surrounded by four women.
- [117:14]
B
Yeah, I think that. That would. That could be a great.
- [117:18]
A
That would be fun.
- [117:19]
B
Yeah.
- [117:20]
A
Yeah. I think with the Justin Peck with Illinois, for me, it's just. It's more about flashes of, like, Bob Fosse with Dancing or Susan Stroman with Contact, where it's when you are the director and the choreographer. And even though the whole thing is mostly dance, just the idea of, like, it is your brainchild, you formed it. That's part of it. But also, some people will not feel that way. I think the five that I would want would be Maria for Marilee, Lee Silverman for Stuffs, Alex Timbers for Here Lies Love, Donya Taymor for the Outsiders, and Jessica Stone for Water for Elephants. I Described this to someone the other day where it's. I felt Jessica Stone now has sort of done a one, two punch and the third punch is the one that's gonna sort of be her all out brawl. Because she. With Kimberly Akimbo, she goes, I've proven that I can help develop a really good musical that is well written, well structured, and I'm really good with actors and setting a tone and with Waterfelf. And she's like, I've proven to you that I have an imagination and I can do some really cool stage pictures. My third show, watch me combine the two.
- [118:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [118:26]
A
I'm like, I can't wait for the third one where it's just like, if.
- [118:29]
B
That show exists, I wish her luck.
- [118:31]
A
But I. And I think, I think it exists and I think it's out there for her because I, you know, with Kimberly, the people I know who were maybe sort of iffy on her nomination were like, well, the staging is fine, but it's. No, it's not impressive.
- [118:45]
B
I thought her work on that was like, so. Yeah, no, I know that you.
- [118:50]
A
Yeah, you know, you know how I feel about that show. I was so. I'm so on board with her work on that show and that musical in general. And I think, you know, there is some impressive staging in Kimberly, but it's also not about being impressive. It's about everything else. And so Water for Elephants was sort of her being like, oh, you thought I can't make do impressive pictures. She's like, I can do impressive pictures. She's like, let me give you a show that's not half as well written as Kimberly Akimbo. And I'm gonna give you some fun pictures.
- [119:13]
B
Yeah, well, I think it'd be a huge. I think, I mean, I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be five female directors nominated.
- [119:20]
A
There absolutely can be. Unless people are just really hard on Tommy. But because that can go either way. It can be the James Lapine with Into the woods or the James Lapine of Falsettos where it's, you know. Well, you did a lot. Yes. You know, you did it before, but you've done some really cool stuff the second time. Or rather like, you know, we're impressed by what you did the second time around. Or it could be like with Falsettos. Yes. You, you, you did some new things. But I preferred what you did 25 years ago, and that could happen. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. All right. Actress in a Play.
- [119:53]
B
Okay.
- [119:55]
A
I have as my predictions, Sarah Paulson, appropriate. Rachel McAdams, Mary Jane, Jessica Lange, Mother Play, Betsy Item, Prayer for the French Republic and Amy Ryan for Doubt. I think it's five for this one. I think we get to five, but.
- [120:14]
B
1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So I think it's. There's. I think there's only eight eligible unless Celia Canaan Bulger is eligible.
- [120:21]
A
Okay. Okay. Okay, then. So then if it's four, I'm gonna take out Amy Ryan. I'm very. I'm. I'm flipped between Amy Ryan and Betsy Item, who I think is the best performance in Prayer for the French Republic. And because I do think that will get a best play nomination. They will get at least one acting nomination. And I think it's her. She's the one. But Amy Ryan, it's. There is the story of she came in and she saved the day and she, like, she did it so fast. Yeah. And it's a great role, I think.
- [120:51]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think the one is Francis Benimu, and I think that's the item of everyone here, except for the Greyhouse people is the least sort of clearly lead lead. And like, that really is an ensemble. So I. Sorry, I mean, do you want to do your wants?
- [121:13]
A
Oh, my. My. My wants were Sarah, Rachel. Sarah, Rachel, Betsy. And then since I haven't seen Mother Play yet, I'm actually going to say Laura Bell for Cottage, who. You know, I didn't like that play, but it was. Seeing her on stage again was lovely and reminded me of like, oh, you're really good at this. You're really good at holding together a production, even if the elements aren't coming together, but it's not happening at all. So. And I just wanted to give her her props, especially because I have friends of the POD and listeners of the POD who all are like, but it could happen. I'm like, I don't want you to mistake that. I didn't like her in the show. It's just not going to happen.
- [121:50]
B
Yeah. I would predict if. If no Celia Delia, then Sarah Paulson, Jessica Lange, Rachel McAdams, Amy Ryan, I think, which would also be my wants. And then I would absolutely Canon Bolger as the fifth.
- [122:08]
A
If we get up to nine.
- [122:11]
B
Although I guess it would be smarter for the play to put her in featured, even though it doesn't really make sense to me, because then they could get. But I did like Laurie Metcalfe. Don't think that was a lead role, but I always appreciate Laurie Metcalf showing up, coming out of the basement and.
- [122:24]
A
Oh, yeah, whenever, Whenever I ever disliked Laurie Metcalf, I couldn't tell you.
- [122:28]
B
So, you know, not going to happen. But not. Not going to happen. She was also there.
- [122:34]
A
She was. She was there. She commanded.
- [122:38]
B
What do we.
- [122:39]
A
I think all we have left is featured actor and actress in a musical.
- [122:43]
B
Okay.
- [122:44]
A
And, I mean, it makes sense. These are the longest of all time. All right, so you, you pick the category. Which one are we doing?
- [122:53]
B
Let's start with. With actress.
- [122:56]
A
Actress. Okay. Do you want to go first?
- [122:59]
B
Sure. Okay. Okay. I don't know. I feel. I feel solid about men, maybe. I think my two locks are Lindsay Mendez and Keisha Lewis for Hell's Kitchen. Then I have Shoshana Bean and Leslie Rodriguez Kritzer for Spamalot and Bibi Newerth for Cabaret, with Joy woods as, like, the closest finisher for me, I think.
- [123:24]
A
Are those also your, Are those your wants as well?
- [123:27]
B
They are close, actually. I would, I would put Joyce Joy woods, and instead of Bebe Neuwirth, although she was great, but otherwise, yes.
- [123:40]
A
So my predictions, I have, I have Lindsay BB And Keisha as absolute locks. I then have Nikki M. James for Sefs, with a possibility of exchanging that for John Colella. And then my fifth. I could see it being either Shoshana or I could see it being Joy. I don't think Leslie's gonna get it. I, I, I just think that that revival is going to kind of slip through a lot of people's fingers. But that's not to say that, you know, she shouldn't be thought of. My wants are. I want to. I'm going to.
- [124:26]
B
I'm going to.
- [124:26]
A
I'm going to be, you know, bitchy, and I'm going to keep Bibi, even though I haven't seen the show yet. Lindsay and Bibi I'm going to keep as my wants. I'm going to say Jordan Tyson for the Notebook, who I really enjoyed. I thought she was so delightful in a role that could have been annoying af. But she was. I thought she was very endearing. I'm gonna say Keisha Lewis for Hell's Kitchen. Absolutely want to keep her in there. That woman is fire. And Tamika Lawrence for Heart of Rock.
- [124:51]
B
And Roll because she needs a really. She wasn't getting the band back together too. She desperately needs a real show.
- [124:59]
A
Yes. And, and in my opinion, absolutely stole the show. And Caroline are changed from everybody with a role that you don't really consider to be, like, a scene stealer. I love Dottie, but that's not one. You're like, oh, yeah, her. She. She got it. She's. I. She's just an extraordinary talent. I also think. And we'll talk about this with featured actor as well. She and another cast member just nailed their assignments in a show that it's hard to do that kind of comedy and. And get away with it. Of just like campy, cheeky, but still earnest and. And serving vocals.
- [125:29]
B
No, I always like her and everything. I think for Suffs, I love the show. I love both of those performances. I think Jen Killella's works better for me just like, as a role because the show is trying so hard to convince us that Ida B. Wells deserves the second to last bow. And it's like he wasn't on stage anywhere near as much of.
- [125:57]
A
Oh, no. I. I think that the show undermines Nikki's chances a bit.
- [126:01]
B
Yeah.
- [126:01]
A
I think what Nikki does is really fantastic. Although she's not my favorite supporting performance. My favorite supporting performance is Ali Bonino, and I would like to have her be in the conversation. It's just not going to happen. Yeah.
- [126:13]
B
I would also like to shout out Rachel Lockhart, who's in Illinois and has like the first featured story dance, who I thought was phenomenal. The Armory, who will definitely not get nominated. But just for the sake of the pod, I'm gonna shut that up. Yeah, I mean, I think. And then see. Is Amber Iman anywhere in the conversation for you?
- [126:35]
A
Not really. And I. And I adore Amber. You know, I've mentioned this on Mike many times and on my video review for. For Lempicka. Like, I re. I have a vivid memory of Amber in Shuffled Along.
- [126:50]
B
She.
- [126:50]
A
There was a moment she has in Brooks Ashmanskis's number, they won't remember you, where she literally has to embody, like, the soul and the legacy of Shuffle along and like the black experience behind a scrim. And she's just like, wailing her heart out while Brooke Sashmascus just keeps singing they won't remember you. And it's burned on my brain forever. I find with Lempicka, because everyone is in a wildly different show, it's gonna be difficult to, like, for some people to nominate anyone in it because it's. It's. Well, is it that I like you? Is it just that you're memorable? Are you actually good in the show or is it just like you're throwing spaghetti at the wall? My favorite performance in Lempicka is actually Beth Leavel, who doesn't get a lot, but she completely nails what she's given.
- [127:34]
B
Yeah.
- [127:35]
A
And Amber also. Amber also has the problem, like, a character that is just designed to be like a manic pixie dream girl, and it's hard to make that a person. And she tries. She really does try. But, like, there are so many scenes where I'm like, oh, they don't. They're not giving you anything. They're just having you be, like, impish.
- [127:52]
B
The death level also only really needs to play one of the several tones in the show. And so whether the quality of the material is up to her standards or not, she is like, this is what I have to come and sell, and I will sell it. Whereas I feel like a lot of the other performers are sort of trying to juggle too many balls at the same time.
- [128:11]
A
Oh, absolutely. And I. I think that's sort of not only the brilliance of Beth as a performer, but also the years of experience she's had in doing shows, honestly, shows that are worse than Lempicka and knowing, like, okay, this is what I'm in, and she can love the show or whatever. I don't know what her feelings are, but she understands. I have to know who my character is, where my character lives, and. And do that consistently. And any changes my character makes has to be part of an arc, not due to, like, the new tone of a scene. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, Actor in a musical. I have as my predictions, Daniel Radcliffe for Merrily Steven Skybell for Cabaret. Paul Alexander Nolan for Water for Elephants. Ben Tyler Cook for Illinois is just based off of what I'm hearing. And then who did I have my fifth one? I. Oh, I had Joshua Boone for the Outsiders. My wants are Brent Comer for the Outsiders as Daryl, who I thought was just absolutely fantastic. Daniel, Steven, Paul. And my fifth would be Conrad Rickamore for Here Lies Love.
- [129:23]
B
Okay, my predictions are. I'll say first, I'll preface this by saying I first saw Paul Alexander Nolan in West side Story at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in 2009, directed by Gary Griffin, opposite Jelena Kennedy as Maria, which was an extraordinary production, I think, like the year before, Nikki M. James did Caesar and Cleopatra with Christopher Plummer there. So great, great run at the Stratford Festival in Ontario for the 2024 Broadway season. But I don't have him on my list, alas. But I know you are.
- [129:59]
A
I'm trying really hard to make it happen. I need people to share.
- [130:02]
B
I share your love for him. Generally, I don't feel like he transcended a role that I think feels significant enough. But whatever My predictions are Daniel Radcliffe, Merrily Rolong, Brenda Victor Dixon in Hell's Kitchen, and then I think I differ from you. Otherwise, I have. I have Roger, Bart, and Back to the Future. I went. I think nominators have all been invited back, and he seems significantly better in the role than he did nine months ago. I have Stephen Skybell and Cabaret. That seems harsh. Shields seems like a role that often gives a lot of critical attention.
- [130:43]
A
He always gets nominated. That role just always does.
- [130:46]
B
And then. And then I think this. I still feel like Liam Pierce could get nominated here for how to Dance in Ohio, because I feel like for anyone that feels like they want to recognize the show in any way, that's the obvious place to do it. And there's such a spread that if only a small contingent of people. But I did have. I mean, Joshua Boone, I think is very much. I had him first and then took him out, so it could go a lot of ways. I didn't feel like. I mean, Ben Cook's role is central, but I don't know how many dancers people want to give nods to, but we'll see who, like, don't speak or sing. And then my wants would be Brenda, Victor Dixon, Daniel Radcliffe, Liam Pierce. I loved Kyle Remar Freeman's lion and the Wiz may have just been me. And then Jason Schmidt was my. As Pony. As. No, not Pony Boy. As Soda Pop was my favorite outside. I was like, what are these names? My favorite performance in the Outsiders with an outside nod to Michael Urian's Spamalot, who I did, like, a lot. Yeah, yeah.
- [131:57]
A
Featured acting musical. There are, like, probably 10 to 15 people who I would not be mad about if they got nominated. There are just, like, two or three. I'm like, I would really like this to happen. And Paul. Paul is very similar to Tamika, where he's not always given a great show or a great role, but he's always great. And there have been three different times where he could have been nominated and didn't. And because this field is kind of wide open, once you get Daniel and Stephen out of the way, like, there's still three slots where it's like, it could go anywhere. I'm like, why not? You know, just. I don't. I. There. There are no performances here where I'm like, the material is so strong and the person's so incredible in it that, like, it would knock out Paul easily for me, because I don't think Water for Elephants is a very good musical, but I do think Paul is the best performance in it by far. And he does. He just does what a good actor would do, which is, you know, infuse nuance and humanity, but a thrilling theatricality to it and also sings the ever living shit out of it. I have been very vocal about how much I don't like Back to the Future. I like Roger Bart, but I just. I don't. I don't think that show allows anyone in it to really give a great performance. It allows people to be memorable, but. And likable, but not necessarily, like, good. There are a lot of people who've been trying to convince me that Hugh Coles is a lock because he was nominated for the Oliviers. And I was like, Elena, Roger was nominated for Avita, you know, think these things do happen. You know, Sharon Clark won the Olivier and didn't win here. And the dude from A Little Night Music opposite Catherine Zeta Jones, I think was nominated at the Oliviers and was not nominated here.
- [133:35]
B
Like, there.
- [133:36]
A
It's always. It's a new group, it's a new voting pool, so you can't take the Oliviers into account. I took. I said this. Oh, the reason, the reason I also had what's His Face from Stereophonic, Eli Gelb and in for Seraphonic, as he was the only one of the featured actors to get nominated at the Lortels, which, again, different pool, but it sort of shows who's sort of being memorable to people in. On this side of the Pond. So just. It just allows you to sort of see what people find memorable in a show. But, yeah, I would love it if Conrad got in.
- [134:14]
B
Sorry?
- [134:14]
A
I said I would love it if Conrad got in. The thing about Brandon, so you're the second person to say Brandon for Hell's Kitchen. And Brandon is really good. But, like, talk about a role where you come on for a Second in Act 1, go away for like an hour.
- [134:25]
B
Yeah.
- [134:26]
A
And then. Come on, I'm like. And, like, nail what you do. But it's, It's. It was a situation of, like, it's so little stage time and a role for me that makes honestly no sense. What he does is he gives his beautiful vocals and his charisma and sex appeal. So at the very least, you're like, oh, I get why Shosh would make a baby with this man. But I was also like, I just don't understand who this guy is.
- [134:48]
B
He's.
- [134:48]
A
He's painted so simply.
- [134:50]
B
I mean, I don't disagree with that, but I think. I think for me, it was just like, there are. And I think We've, I mean collectively nominated for four vocal performances from that role. And I just feel like the, the experience of just like the stacking of like person after person who sounds incredible feels like, yeah, you want, you're like, how can I spread, how can I spread this love? At least that would be my, I don't know, my instinct. But we'll see. I did. I did not. The only performance that sort of in contention that I did not see was Conrad. Rick Amora was out the night I saw here last and I sensed that role being sort of nominatable. But I, yeah, you know, he, it's.
- [135:38]
A
He'S a less aggressive chef. You know, he's a much more endearing and charismatic Che. So people enjoy that. And Conrad is a very handsome, very talented man. So that helps. But also it's, I mean it's not happening. I feel like Kiralized love is either going to come up extraordinarily short nomination morning. Not, I don't think totally empty handed. I think it'll get, if it comes up short, it'll be like two, maybe three nominations or it could get like a solid six. And in that six would include Conrad. But alas, I think that's it. I think that's everybody. I think we've covered everything. Yeah, we did it, Joe. So, Dan, this has been so delightful. Thank you so much for joining us today.
- [136:18]
B
I am thrilled to have been allowed to share this space.
- [136:23]
A
Where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [136:25]
B
Yeah. So my podcast, the present stage conversations with theater writers, which includes conversations with John Patrick Shanley, Adam Gettle, Jocelyn Dio, lots of people from the season is available anywhere you stream podcasts. And then I write for Slant magazine. I'm on Twitter at Dan rubinstweet. And then lastly, my non profit which has been alluded to is called hear your song. We work with youth with serious illnesses and complex health needs to make their voices heard through collaborative songwriting. So we help kids with a whole variety of mental and physical health diagnoses write their own songs. We did a concert with the company of Kimberly Akimbo and Janine Tesori and David Lindsay Baer did a masterclass with one of our kids last year and Ali Mozzie sang a song about frogs that was amazing. So you can check out our YouTube channel or visit hearyoursong.org if you want to check some of that out. Yeah. So I hope people check out the present stage podcast to hear some interviews with folks who are eligible for some.
- [137:27]
A
Of these awards phenomenal if you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at. Matt Koplik, Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or a little review. We did get a new one today. It's pretty short, but I. It's. I will still do the Light in the Piazza Overture music. Because the last one, we didn't do it because it was just one sentence and this one is I think three. So we'll do that. Cue the Light in the Piazza Overture. Five stars. My favorite Broadway podcast written by Anne Boleyn was innocent. Amazing name. I always look forward to every new episode. I enjoy Matt Koplik's analysis and breakdown of shows. The episode on Miss Saigon is a must listen for any new listener. End of review. Thank you so much. That's, I think like the third time someone has written about the Miss Saigon episode which remains and probably will, will remain the longest episode of Broadway Breakdown to date.
- [138:18]
B
I'm sorry, I could not contend.
- [138:21]
A
No, listen. I think people were somehow willing to listen to three and a half hours of Miss Saigon. I don't know if anybody wants to listen to four hours of Tony predictions. It's like, wrap it up. I want to know what you say about the next one. And I know I had people who were like, how could you talk about Miss Saigon for three and a half hours? And I said, my response was, you want to know the crazy thing? I cut out an hour. James and I had spoken for four and a half hours and I had to cut it down. So that's all she wrote about that. Dan, as you know, we close out every episode with a little diva that I'll put in post. Who would you like to sing us out today for this Tony prediction episode?
- [138:57]
B
Gosh, I'm unprepared. I'm gonna go with can it be? Can be a standard issue.
- [139:09]
A
It can be whoever you want.
- [139:11]
B
I'm gonna. I'm gonna go with Kelli o' Hara because I do think she gave the greatest performance of the year in the car.
- [139:16]
A
Phenomenal.
- [139:17]
B
I would do her. Sweet smile. Success. What if moment. Oh, first encounter with Brian Darcy. James.
- [139:25]
A
Deep cut. Sweet smell of success. All right, that's. If that is what baby wants, that is what baby gets. So check us out next week, guys when we will respond to the Tony nominations. In fact, actually, yeah, this will pro. So this episode. Episode is going to come out like two days before the nominations. So the response, the reaction episode will be like two days after that. So check us back for those reactions and we will see you next time. Take it away, Kelly. Bye. What if he could burst on the.
- [139:52]
B
Scene in a highly awaited debut? You're talking crazy. What if you remember how recently you were a nobody too? Just give him the start he deserves. We can maneuver the curse.
- [140:07]
A
Sydney.
- [140:09]
B
Don't take us halfway. I want my brother to say, Susan, I'd like you to meet a gifted young man. A man you should know. A man in.