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Broadway Breakdown
2024 Tony Predictions: Bold, Brave and Early (w/ Dylan MacDowell)
02:33:40
Confident and Uninformed
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Transcript1,003 lines
- [00:00]
A
Think of the prestige.
- [00:01]
B
Think of the respect.
- [00:02]
A
No, no, no. Think of the Tony. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I'm your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast host hosts. And with me today is a friend of the Pod, alum of the pod. He's got his own legitimately legendary pod himself called Drama with Connor and Dylan. Please welcome Back to the pod, Dylan McDowell. Hi, Dylan.
- [00:40]
B
Hello. I'm so honored to be in this next installment of the Tonys. Predictions. I look to you as sort of an arbiter of opinions in the Broadway community, but I'm most honored that you asked just me. This is one half of the team, and it shows that I can maybe carry my own weight. So I absolutely have the faith in me.
- [00:58]
A
You're welcome. Well, first of all, there's the friend situation, which is just, I like you. I wanted to separate you from your dynamic duo. And then there was the businessman in me who knows that I'm a lazy motherfucker and I have to spread these episodes out if I'm going to keep going until June. I was like, well, then I'll just have Connor come in in April. But I did choose you first.
- [01:17]
B
That's. You know what? I'm first born as well. So that's very nice.
- [01:21]
A
There you go. Listen, Connor, he and I will have Will dish it out and settle that feud, that beef later on. Capote v. The Swans. He'll. I'll be Capote, he'll be the Swans. It'll be fine. Yes.
- [01:32]
B
I was thinking about Feud, how there should be one about the 19. Is it 82 or 84? That was 9 versus Dreamgirls.
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A
82.
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B
82. That would be epic. Michael Bennett, Tommy Tune, like, that would be just beyond. There was so much political drama going on at the time because the Tonys are ultimately politics. So. Oh, yeah.
- [01:49]
A
I mean, you. All you have to do is look at how certain years play out to see, like, how the politics go. Like, we just talked about this in the Miss Saigon episode, right. Of 1991. Miss Saigon is like the ginormous hit of the year. Critically divisive, but it does get away from the times. And they have, you know, one of the most Tony nominations of the year, and they get three wins, but it's all in acting. They none of them for the writing or the show itself. And every time Miss Saigon loses a Tony that night. If you watch the ceremony, you can hear the audience go insane for the show that beat Miss Saigon at like, score book, set design, musical. Yeah, very political.
- [02:30]
B
Yeah, we'll see. I mean, this year we have like, what is it, over a dozen new musicals alone that are opening. So, you know, in these situations, I've tend to notice the Tony voters will kind of just choose four to six shows that they're really going to mine nominations from.
- [02:44]
A
Yeah, it's. It's very interesting because there has the. So for anyone who hasn't read the title of this episode, Dylan and I are doing bold and early Tony predictions.
- [02:58]
B
Very early.
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A
Very early. I mean, we're halfway through the season. Actually more than halfway through the season. But the thing is that like 30 shows are opening after this episode comes out, so we'll see what happens.
- [03:08]
B
We haven't seen them. We haven't seen half of them. So you said it best, like, this is maybe wishful thinking. Yeah, but it'll be. It's so fun to think about all this stuff because the possibilities are endless still. And you never know what it's going to be. And then in three months we're going to be like, well, of course it's so and so.
- [03:22]
A
But yeah, it seems so obvious now. I mean, what we have to kind of do and what I was telling Dylan before we recorded is, you know, it is a combination of our own wishful thinking, our own, like, sight unseen bold predictions, and then also trying to take into account past patterns with nominators and voters. It's hard to look, you can't really necessarily go back to like 1985 to decide like, well, if they did this, then what are they going to do now? Because, like, totally different voting body now, different nominators now they change the nominating committee every three years. Whereas I think with like, with the Oscars, I'm not entirely sure how long the nominating committee gets to be on. But like, I know if you're a voter for the Oscars, you're a voter for life. And it's a very large pool. And you know, the Tonys, it's slightly smaller and the overlap is kind of weird and there's no real precursors for the Tonys. We were talking about this before, like drama desks and outer critics circle can help with like momentum and buzz. Right. But the people who vote for those awards don't vote at all for the Tony. So like, if someone went the outer critics circle in the drama desk, they may not win the Tony, look at Laura Benanti with Women on the Verge, and then Nikki M. James swoops in with Book of Mormon. But I will say, look, I was looking at the last, like, 30 years of winners for certain categories. I'm like, there are certain trends.
- [04:36]
B
Totally.
- [04:36]
A
Yeah. So I'll be. We'll be interested to talk about that. We're not necessarily talking about winners, but it can. It can help us figure out maybe narrow down a couple of nominations today. So, Dylan, guest of honor. Yeah, let's pick. Let's pick a category and let's just go for it. Let's fig. Let's talk about it.
- [04:54]
B
A part of me kind of wants to start with the really big best musical or best play. And then that could maybe inform or trickle down some of the other categories.
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A
Trickle down economics. I love it. All right.
- [05:03]
B
Yeah, let's just start with best musical.
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A
Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it.
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B
Okay. So what I'm hearing, word on the street is, and I have yet to see it, and listeners obviously know that half the things we haven't seen. But the Notebook has all of this momentum going into this season because obviously it played out of town last year or two years ago in Chicago. And the buzz is just that it's a beautiful adaptation with a gorgeous score and brilliant performances. And no new musical other than Back to the Future that opened last summer has lasted until this point in the season. And it seems to be like an adaptation that people actually really are enjoying. So far, in its first week of previews.
- [05:40]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. No, that has been my number one with a bullet for a while now. Again, sight unseen, for all the reasons that you've said. I have one friend who saw it out of town who really, really enjoyed it. Everyone else, you know, I'm just going off. I've had a few people who went to the dress rehearsal and really enjoyed it. The number one thing that I've been going off of. And you know this because you had him on your podcast. Ryan Vasquez is an acquaintance. I. He and I are friendly, and I had asked him if he had the choice of the three shows that he did out of Town. And he did. He did get to choose, and he chose the Notebook. And I won't go into his reasons, but, like, just the very fact that he had these three new musicals all coming in and he had the option. He chose that one. I'm like, there's gotta be something here. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. It's not even his largest role. Like Water for Elephants was the larger role. And the Outsiders, like, you could argue maybe, you know, it's a more nationally recognized title because everyone's read that book in middle school. And, you know, it's like a. It's a. It's a more. It's a more violent newsies in a way.
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B
I like how we've had two like. Like, newsy offsprings. Like Harmony sort of had, like, this, you know, a couple decades later, and then Outsiders a few decades later after that.
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A
Yeah. Harmony is newsies you can bring home to mom.
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B
It's.
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A
They wear tuxedos and they're very sweet, and they all survive World War II. So, you know, bless.
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B
I know. Which I was not expecting that. And come the epilogue finale, but we'll.
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A
Talk about that when we get to other categories. But, yeah, very good.
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B
Very good.
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A
Yeah, I will just say I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this, and we'll. And then we'll talk about it further. I got a little annoyed with the narrative of how they were trying to promote Harmony in the end of the run because it went from like, this is an interesting story to this story is important. You have to see it if you're Jewish. And. To which I go, why? And they go, well, because we should never forget. And I go, never forget what? How six men got famous, then unfamous, and then all survived World War II. That's not. That's not a Holocaust story. And don't. And please don't advertise it as such. So that made me a little that. But that's a Ken Davenport thing. That's not a Barry Manilow thing. So we'll put a pin in her.
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B
And they are, of course, this is happening with us on your podcast, jumping around. But the. The they. Harmony actually just recently put out a post about here's other important stories you need to see. And they tied in Prayer for the French Republic and White Rose.
- [08:08]
A
That's happening off Broadway.
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B
And so they're. They're definitely. We're pulling that. That audience in. And I. That is a very New York thing. You know, like, we saw Leopold Stadt win last year, and so they definitely know there's an audience for these plays that are focusing on Jewish stories. And I don't know. I don't think it's not smart, but I definitely don't think it's the direction that they should have been going in.
- [08:28]
A
But I've yet to see any musical become a hit by advertising. See our show, because it's important. And you're problematic if you don't. I don't think not only musicals. I don't think I've seen any Broadway show advertised that way and succeeded.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I mean, Leopoldstadt didn't even really advertise with the. Like, it's so timely and, like, you must see us. They were just like, it's good. Lebelstadt is good. And it's classy. Like, we're a classy show to see. Totally, yeah. And also, like, oh, and by the way, there's no intermission, so, like, yes, it's two hours and 10 minutes. But, like, you're out, you know, before you'd ever be out of Oppenheimer. Like, just come see us.
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B
I have such a pet peeve, actually, now that we're talking about this. When marketing teams or, you know, a lot of times it comes directly from producers who just tell the marketing team, that has to be the way that it is. And when someone markets something as this is important, important, it's like, what does that word even mean? At certain points, when I remember when Bandstand was trying to. In a similarly crowded season, everyone was like, you need to see this show. Like, honor the motherfucking troops, y'.
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A
All.
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B
Like, and it was, D, baby, watch your six. And it was just, like, important, you know? Like, I. I did enjoy aspects and performances in Bandstand, but being told that something's important isn't necessarily gonna be the draw for me. Like, there has to be something else that's gonna hook me.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah, well, so I was talking to my friend yesterday after we saw Merrily, because he had gone to see appropriate. He's a Tony voter, and he had gone to see appropriate, and he really, really liked it. And what he had said was like, I'm not entirely sure, like, what it's about. And I wonder, what do you mean? He's like, well, like, what's the theme? What's the messaging? I'm like, well, a whole bunch of stuff. But, like, what makes appropriate so good is that it's not like, here are the themes. Hit you over the head. This is an important show. Like, it deals with very heavy, but it's what it mostly is, is just fucking compelling. Like, it's engaged. Yeah, it's just very engaging because it's mostly just about those characters dealing with a very human level thing. And, I mean, that's the kind of shit that I love. I love shows that are just about people dealing with human stuff. And, like, the themes at large are present because how can they not be. That's the human experience, but it's dealing with it at a human level. Which brings us back to our conversation. I understand that's one of the things about the Notebook that is so lovely is like how much of a human musical it is. And I enjoy that because what won.
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B
Best musical last year? A human story.
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A
Yeah, I mean, people talk about a lot about like, oh, well, what's going to tour. Well, and like the, the only show, you know, post really Hamilton, where like you could say, oh, this big budget musical that toured. Well, that one best musical was Moulin Rouge and that was the COVID gas leak year. Like, for a while now, for a while now, the Tonys have gone with either the smaller or like, more artistic musical. And if like, and if it happens to be a big tittied hit, like, all the better. Like Hadestown. Dear Evan Hansen. Like, they're like, oh, God bless. Like, it's also, you know, people are flocking to it, but they will go with like a bandstand or a Strangely or a Kimberly Akimbo over an MJ or some like at Hot or, you know, Mean Girls more often than not.
- [11:38]
B
Yeah, that's definitely the trend. I wonder, though, because Back to the Future, it's already announced its tour. I mean, it had announced its tour last March in Cleveland, where my parents live, and they have a subscription. And it's literally by June it'll already be opening in Cleveland and touring. I wonder if knowing that it's going to happen will still bring those road voters in. You know what I mean?
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A
Well, so first of all, it has to get nominated before the road voters have any say. And I.
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B
And that's a more internal crowd.
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A
Yeah. So the, yeah, the nominators do get to vote, but like the not what gets nominated versus what wins is always very tricky. We're going to. Everyone will hear us talk about this on the Aida episode. But there, that was a year where the nominating committee, I don't necessarily think it was a conspiracy, but I do think a lot of nominators worked very hard to make sure Aida did not get a best musical nomination, because if it got nominated, it most likely was going to win.
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B
And you can see that that was the contact year.
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A
Yeah. And you can see that because of the five nominations Aida got, it won four. And it's like, yeah, no, if they had had a musical nomination, those voters probably would have voted for it. And I don't. I'm not speaking out of term here. I. I won't say who I've spoken to. And I very famously might have written a review for Back to the Future on Instagram. I will say this because of that review. I have spoken to a lot of people in the. In the community. That show is not respected pretty much by anybody. It's. The general idea is, I am so glad that my friend is employed. No one who works on Broadway right now has any respect for that show. And so I find it very difficult to believe they're going to get a musical nomination. I think everyone's kind of hoping that the spring will give us enough semi decent musicals that Back to the Future won't get nominated. And if it does get nominated for musical, I don't think they're going to get nominated for enough of the big below the line stuff like score or book that it'll push it.
- [13:45]
B
Yeah, that's fair.
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A
So we'll see. We will see what happens with their nomination. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go ahead and say no. Okay.
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B
That was one of my maybes. I had it on the bubble for that. This. But this is.
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A
This is why I'm being bold and I'm saying no because we have to be bold. Yeah. Come April 30th, watch me be like, I never said that. What you talking about?
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B
Don't put it on the edit, bitch.
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A
I'm going to say, okay, so we have the notebook, for sure. I'm going to say Days of Wine and Roses.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I'm gonna. I'm gonna say it because even though it'll be closed. Yeah. Well, yes. I think it'll have just closed by the time the nominations come out. It closes, like, right at the end of April, right?
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B
It does, yeah.
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A
Yeah. So all the nominators definitely have seen it. I think they'll do their best to get voters in to see it. It's. I mean, it's not winning, I think what it's. I think it's got score, actress and actor nominations locked up and we'll get to those categories. I'm gonna give it a musical nomination because definitely the most quote unquote, arty of the bunch. It's got the most well respected pedigree of any musical this season in terms of its creative staff.
- [14:53]
B
Absolutely.
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A
And I don't particularly like the show much myself, but I know plenty of people who do.
- [15:00]
B
Okay.
- [15:02]
A
And I think it's. I don't know, like, I've been on the fence between that and Here Lies Love, where I'm like, of which closed show will they, you know Throw the bone to. So I'm gonna say Days of Wine and Roses because. Just because it's. It will have been open most recently.
- [15:19]
B
And it's Adam Guettle and he has. He's won a Tony for.
- [15:22]
A
He sure has. And Craig Lucas has been nominated many times.
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B
Many times.
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A
And Greif is, you know, a many Tony nominated director. I think he'll get nominated for Notebook and not this, because he's in.
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B
He's doing three, right?
- [15:36]
A
Yeah. And also Hell's Kitchen, which we'll get to.
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B
You know, it's so funny because I know a lot of your opinions based on the reviews you might have given for Off Broadway runs and whatnot. And so I'm excited for the. A lot of these had quick turnarounds, you know, and so I'm interested.
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A
So actually, that is. This is something that's interesting with the quote unquote. Precursors is usually they don't count, and they don't really count. But, like, one of the other major things is like, a lot of shows that transfer from Off Broadway to Broadway, you know, they transfer from like the previous season. So we were talking about this off mic, but, you know, this past year when some people were like, all about Annalee winning all these things pre Tonys, and I'm like, well, you know that Vicky won those same awards just last year. But, you know, Kimberly was the year before. Most of the Off Broadway transfers for this year are eligible for the precursors this year. Right.
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B
Because it was cycle.
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A
Yeah. In fact, I believe Merrily actually took themselves out of contention for a lot of the precursors last year because they're like, we're coming to Broadway, like, nominate us next year.
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B
Respectful. Very respectful.
- [16:37]
A
Taste of Wine and Roses, the same thing. Hell's Kitchen. It's the same thing. I think Harmony and Suts are the only Off Broadway transfers that aren't eligible because of previous years. But everything else is, like, very quick.
- [16:51]
B
Right. Just throw another name in the ring. I do think Water for Elephants has a good chance. I think technically it could be the Paradise Square where it gets a ton of. Or the New York. New York. We saw two years in a row, shows that got 12 nominations, you know, and then maybe took home one or two design awards. I do think it could go in that way. There's like that Pippin buzz about the acrobats. There's, you know, it's the. The music and lyrics are written by an interesting team with Pig Pen, so Water for Elements could. And you know what I do think is Almost a surefire. And this is my bold. This is me being bold. I think that sucks because Hillary Clinton and Malala are producing it and when you have that big star power producing thing, they're going to use that in their marketing. It's sort of a second wave Hamilton. You know, a lot of people compared it to Hamilton when it was in the. At the Public and there was Philippa sue attached. Granted, she's not a part of this iteration, but I could see it being, you know, that timely political piece about. It's mostly women, right? Is it all women?
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A
It's all women, yeah.
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B
Or female identifying. And so I think it's. It stands out for that reason.
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A
Yeah, I'm very intrigued by Suffs. I think Shayna is a very talented individual. I understand that they did a lot of work between the Public and Broadway. They did a. The, the word is that they basically sat down, the entire team and were like, we need another major go at this if we're going to go to Broadway. So they did a workshop and were like, we have to really fucking like nail this shit down. And supposedly they did a lot of positive work. That is what I've been told. That is another show where the. The community is sort of waiting on because I, I think because a lot of people were disappointed with the public run.
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B
Okay.
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A
There's a little. This is all.
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B
Well, who got to see it. I mean it was canceled every other week for Covid.
- [18:46]
A
I know I. My tickets got canceled because of COVID But like this is also another thing when people are like, oh, Broadway is such a loving community. Like there's a lot of side eyeing in this community because when they announced they're going to Broadway, a lot of people are like, I don'. Know. What I saw at the Public is what's moving. I don't know. But that's why they've been. They've been very vocal about the workshop of like. No, no, we've. We've put in the work which I appreciate.
- [19:06]
B
Which you believe a lot of other shows could have benefited from that coming in this season. So.
- [19:11]
A
Girl. Yeah, so many shows.
- [19:15]
B
I think I read a stat recently that no show has won best musical over the last like decade or so that hasn't had an out of town first or a off Broadway. So I definitely think. I mean, what's. Is there anything that's opening cold on Broadway this season?
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A
I don't think so. So.
- [19:31]
B
Okay, so that stat doesn't count.
- [19:32]
A
But yeah, everything that's coming has had a previous incarnation. I'M trying to think. I mean, not a lot of shows open cold on Broadway anyway. Like Something Rotten is one of the early, most recent cases and Shuffle Along. Oh, yeah, shuffle Along.
- [19:48]
B
And then we'll get Smash next season. That apparently isn't getting a town or not.
- [19:53]
A
I guess they're feeling very bold about that. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying. City of Angels and Sweeney Todd are two musical winners that opened cold on Broadway that didn't have any out of town tryout that won the Tony. But yeah, I think what's more interesting is most of the Tony winners of the last couple of years have had some connection to Off Broadway outside of Moulin Rouge. So it's always interesting to kind of keep that in mind. But yeah, I don't know. I think that having your show go up and, you know, in front of an audience and then taking into account what critics say and then tweaking from there will really help. Right. Where I have been told that hasn't happened is actually with Hell's Kitchen. I've been told that the, that that show pretty much had a transfer ready to go from the very first preview. And when the reviews came out and were very specific about, like, what issues they had. So I have two different friends who were approached to invest in the Broadway transfer. I'm like, well, what changes are you making? And they go, well, we were actually pretty surprised by the reviews and we don't really agree with them. So the changes we're making are mostly Act 1, not Act 2. And they're like, girl, every review is like, you need to work on Act 2. And so I think the reviews will actually be less positive when it moves to Broadway because those critics are going to be like, we told you what we had problems with and you blatantly ignored us. Now you're making us feel like assholes.
- [21:24]
B
Well, that's interesting. I. I don't feel any momentum for Hell's Kitchen. Maybe it's just that there. It's a crowded season, but especially after Ms. Keys is very off key vocals during the Super Bowl. I don't know if there's any positive. I'm just kidding. But is it an original score?
- [21:40]
A
No, she's written like three new songs, but the rest of it is okay. Former stuff where Hell's Kitchen has a lot of. Of heat for me having seen it in my life. Because I am. I am. What? Fancy. I think, I think we've got three female performances that could absolutely come in and get nominated. We've got the female lead whose name.
- [22:02]
B
It's Malia Joy Moon, right?
- [22:04]
A
Yes. I was about to say. I know it ends with Moon. Malia Joy Moon. I think she'll definitely get nominated. She's very lovely. She also has the. An enviable task of being a role that mostly does narration. It's like that book is 80% narration, and I hate it.
- [22:20]
B
It's a Derek Baskins and Ain't Too Proud situation.
- [22:24]
A
Yes.
- [22:25]
B
Yeah.
- [22:25]
A
You've heard me talk about that, right?
- [22:27]
B
I don't think so.
- [22:28]
A
I hated that script for Ain't Too Proud because anytime a scene would happen, he would cut in with narration.
- [22:33]
B
Yes.
- [22:34]
A
And I'm like, no scene lasted longer than 45 seconds before he was. He would turn to the audience. I'm like, no, give me scene work.
- [22:40]
B
I have heard you talk about this. Yes.
- [22:42]
A
Hate it, hate it, hate it. Kill it with fire. It's the same thing with Hell's Kitchen. The other issue I have with Hell's Kitchen is that all of. That's one. It's just Shoshana Bean serving food. Oh, no. Like, every scene she comes on like, serves pasta, serves salad. I'm like, she needs to be serving me vocals right now.
- [22:59]
B
She's mothering and waitressing in ways that we don't want her to be.
- [23:03]
A
Exactly. And she does a lovely job. And they do give her more meat in act two.
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B
Okay.
- [23:08]
A
But I, I was. I just remembered intermission. I'm like, you have Ms. Bean on stage and she has sung two songs, neither of which is any good. And the rest of the time she's just serving Ms. Malia food. I don't. Why the hate crime? Why the hate crime? Who really is the. The fire of that show is Keisha Lewis.
- [23:28]
B
Oh, always. Great.
- [23:30]
A
Yes. I. I am making a hot claim now that she will be nominated for featured actress.
- [23:35]
B
Okay.
- [23:35]
A
If I had to. If you're like, okay, Sophie's Choice. Neither she and Shoshana can, you know, or she and Shoshana can't both be nominated. I'm going with Keisha.
- [23:44]
B
Okay.
- [23:45]
A
But I mean, we'll see. Many things can happen. But back to musical yet Hell's Kitchen doesn't really have a lot of heat right now. I think a lot of people assumed it was going to be a front runner because it was such a sold out hit at the public. But the reviews are very tepid. They have no advance right now. But also a lot of shows don't.
- [24:03]
B
Right.
- [24:04]
A
So we'll see. I mean, I think Water for Elephants probably will get in there too, as a musical nomination. I think you're very right. It is a very something rotten. Mean Girls were like. Because it's a very big technical show, there are a lot of performances you could possibly nominate. It has a chance to be like a crowd pleasing semi hit. Yeah. I think we're gonna see it get in in a lot of places. And I think from everything I've been told, I don't want to predict object, but it. I understand that it's sort of like. Like Gatsby is a similar situation of like high design, big budget, like Razzmatazz. But Elephants is the better musical. Just from what I've been. Just from what I've been told, I'm.
- [24:47]
B
Yeah, I didn't get to see Gatsby.
- [24:49]
A
I did not either. Which is why I'm. I'm putting with that little caveat because I'm only going off of again, people I know who saw it, people I know who are approached to invest. I know that at Gatsby they've had absolutely no problem with money. They got approved, like another $1.5 million for their stuff. Yeah.
- [25:07]
B
So I want to be pleasantly surprised by it because I've seen a lot online about people saying that it's. It pales in comparison to this upcoming Florence Welch Gatsby. But I always like to go in with a positive. And I love the cast. I mean, it's got so many vocalists down in it. And so I'm excited about that. I mean, it's Gatsby.
- [25:26]
A
It's so fascinating to me that people are already like, well, this isn't going to be as good as the Florence Welch one. I'm like, we haven't seen the Florence Welch one. Yeah.
- [25:32]
B
Maybe someone heard something.
- [25:34]
A
I think people are just already assuming that that one's going to be better because of the creative team. And. Yeah, it's not fair to the Gatsby that's already about to be on Broadway.
- [25:43]
B
I know. I know. Everything will have its due. And this. The creative team, the. At least the songwriting team is the same as the aforementioned Paradise Square. Right, Jason?
- [25:52]
A
Same songwriters. Yeah.
- [25:53]
B
Okay. And I think Kate Kerrigan from Kerrigan and Laddermook is part of it.
- [25:56]
A
She is. She wrote the book and she. I don't think she wrote. I don't think she was a part of the book writing team for Paradise Square because that had like five book writers.
- [26:04]
B
It did. A lot of cooks in that kitchen.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah. And still I didn't get served anything.
- [26:11]
B
But you're funny. Oh, my God.
- [26:15]
A
So, yeah.
- [26:15]
B
I don't know I don't know. We'll see. About Gatsby. Heart of rock and roll. Another big question mark. But I am most curious about Lempicka.
- [26:21]
A
Yes, same, same. I. Well, this, I will say this. Speaking of Paradise Square, I feel like I'm the only homosexual in all of America who did not die for Woman. Is that Eden?
- [26:34]
B
I remember you saying that. It was in my Spotify top five songs last year.
- [26:37]
A
That tracks for you.
- [26:39]
B
Yes. Eden can deliver a tune in the lyrics to me. I know you feel it with. It was written in an hour or something like that, but no, they said.
- [26:48]
A
They wrote it in an hour. They. Well, all I said was, you can tell.
- [26:52]
B
Oh, that's right. Okay, okay. Forgive me. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but there's just something about the way that she's able to capture the essence of, of this art meets attraction and the sexuality. It's just a lot of things at once that I really admire. Also, is this our first musical about a painter since George Surratt?
- [27:11]
A
I mean, yeah, unless you count Jonathan Groff and Merrily Painting My Face.
- [27:21]
B
Well, they do love an artist storyline and musicals. Jack Kelly is a, is a, like an artist in Newsies secretly and paints murals, so.
- [27:28]
A
Oh, that's right, he does. I totally forgot about that. Yeah, he's an artist. Lempicka, I'm very interested by. I think that has a good shot at getting in there as well. I gotta say. Like, that song, it's more than. My issue is just like, I feel like the lyrics mean nothing, but Eden does absolutely deliver it. And I connect it to Paradise Square because I'm like, it's the Let it burn of the year, but. Okay, okay, but if we have forgotten, Jakina has won the Tony for that song.
- [27:55]
B
True.
- [27:55]
A
So, like, that speaks highly of Ms. Eden, if you're nasty. And I think what people are excited about with that show is, again, we've got Chavkin directing, and that's already enough to put anyone's antenna up. And it is a strong cast assembled, including Eden, who's making, like, this glorious return to Broadway.
- [28:13]
B
It's been 16 years or something like that.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah, it's been 84 years. And I, I, I don't know. Like, I think even if it's not great, I have a feeling there's going to be enough good shit there that it'll be enough to sort of carry it over the threshold for a good slew of nominations. Yeah. Including musical. Yeah. So I'm gonna say so far, I've said Notebook. Days of Wine and Roses, Water for Elephants. Lempicka, you said suffs.
- [28:41]
B
I did.
- [28:41]
A
Is suffs there for you instead of Days of Wine and Roses?
- [28:44]
B
It is.
- [28:44]
A
Okay, you know what? I'll say suffs as my number five.
- [28:50]
B
Then I'll need a fifth. I'm gonna go with a close show, but not Days of Wine and Roses. I think that they will fondly remember Here Lies Love at the time.
- [29:00]
A
I hope so. I really hope so. I have Here Lies Love in a couple of other categories. Not musical, but, I mean, if. If we're gonna give the Scottsboro Boys slot to a closed show, why not Here Lies Love, which was really, really well liked by everyone in the community and respected. And, I mean, even when they came in, everyone was like, they're not gonna last. But I'm so pumped that they're doing it. Yeah. Yeah. A very noble financial flop.
- [29:28]
B
And pour some out for a few of the closed shows like Harmony, how to Dance in Ohio, and Once Upon a One More Time that just didn't make it.
- [29:36]
A
They had their. They had their shot and they tried, and we. And we give them grace. Yes. I suppose I could see Once Upon a One More Time ultimately getting a nomination for choreography. I didn't particularly like the choreography, but I was impressed by its precision. And that's. That's a category that I feel like could go a million different ways.
- [29:58]
B
Absolutely. The choreo in the song Lucky Alone was very, very inspired to me. So a lot of hand gestures, and I actually really enjoyed Once Upon One More Time for what it was. Yeah.
- [30:06]
A
Look.
- [30:06]
B
Oh, my God. I wish this was a visual. I wish we were in your studio that you sometimes do podcasts in because people would see you doing amazing handography.
- [30:14]
A
Sorry. Yeah.
- [30:16]
B
Should we. Should we keep doing musical categories, or do you want to talk about plays for a minute? Just change.
- [30:19]
A
Let's do plays for a minute. Because I gotta say, I know I've been sounding very negative so far, and I gotta say, y', all. The plays this season have actually been stepping their up. It's the musicals that have been kind of leaving me on red. I've got. Okay, so I'm gonna. Let's do play because revival is a little easier.
- [30:38]
B
It's easy for both play and musical.
- [30:41]
A
Yeah. Well, so the question is, what happens with appropriate. The rumor is that it's going to be deemed revival, which if that's true, then we've got a revival that might not make a Final Four. That's true, because the revivals Are Doubt, Uncle Vanya, An Enemy of the People and then Appropriate and because.
- [31:03]
B
Appropriate, because it was the second stage of it all, it's had a production previously, so it's a revival.
- [31:07]
A
It's unclear because they've done it before where, you know, an Off Broadway show moves to Broadway after many years like It's Her Lies Love has been deemed a new musical, whereas Gutenberg was deemed a revival. I think because Appropriate has had a couple of productions in between. And this isn't a direct replica of the Off Broadway production or rather say it's a very different creative team. A lot of changes have been made. So they. It's now just being deemed a new production of an older play.
- [31:35]
B
Kind of like was it between Riverside and Crazy last year that was new musical, even though it was new play.
- [31:40]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:40]
B
Or new play. Sorry, new play. But it was at a previous iteration.
- [31:43]
A
Yeah, well, because it was the one that they did at Second Stage. Well, first of all, it was Second Stage did the Off Broadway production and the Broadway production, so that probably helped. And it was most of the same cast, same director, same creative, seem like it was the same exact production. So I think they were just deemed that a transfer. The Tony nominating committee, they play fast and loose. I don't think it's the Tony nominating committee. It thinks it's like Tony administration ever. Like they play fast and loose with that revival eligibility. Uh huh. It's always the way that that Supreme Court justice was like, I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it. It's like the Tony, Tony Cooney's like I can't define a revival, but I know it when I see it.
- [32:24]
B
No, that's fair. I think that's so funny. So okay, so Appropriate is going to be a revival. Well that to me was. Was a front runner for best play.
- [32:31]
A
It was.
- [32:32]
B
It also would have been the first time a black playwright wins that award since August Wilson in the 80s.
- [32:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. Which would have been nice. But I mean we'll see. We'll see what happens. I think that if Appropriate is deemed a new play, I think it's going to be between that and Stereophonic, which.
- [32:51]
B
I'm hearing just amazing.
- [32:53]
A
Yeah. I also going to say this now and you know, we'll come back to it. But like I'm gonna make a hot take that. I think Stereofana could be a surprise best score nominee.
- [33:01]
B
I was gonna say the same thing. I'm hearing just beyond buzz about that show. Everyone loved it.
- [33:07]
A
Yeah.
- [33:07]
B
Playwrights right.
- [33:08]
A
Yeah, playwrights. And. And I think it's enough songs that it will be eligible for score. And they've done it before. Where a. Where a play will get a score nomination. No play has won that. And I don't think any play. Well, I'm just saying not. No play has won score when there have been musicals eligible. So, like Christmas Carol won during the COVID gas leak year because the three musical nominees were all jukebox musicals.
- [33:32]
B
Right.
- [33:33]
A
But I mean, they've been a little more gaslit.
- [33:37]
B
I can't get past that. I'm sorry. The gaslit. That's what it was.
- [33:40]
A
Hysterical.
- [33:41]
B
Oh, my God.
- [33:42]
A
I. I gotta be hysterical, baby, to compensate for my toxic personality. But the. Yeah, I think that. I think that that's a case where there. Even though we have a slew of new musicals coming in, I. I just. I have a. I have this weird feeling that because Stereophonic has been so praised and has this buzz like it, that is one of the few transfers happening this year that, like, people are genuinely talking about. And I think part of it is like the length of the show and yet people are going like, no, but you don't understand. Like, it flies by and. And it's sort of like in an Oppenheimer y, Titanic Y kind of way where it's like, no, I know that like three hours sounds like a lot, but I swear to God, like, goes by in a minute.
- [34:25]
B
And I don't believe in that, by the way. It never feels like a minute. It absolutely feels like three hours. But I just. I'm not like checking my watch, you know, it's just the difference.
- [34:34]
A
I mean, I've been to three hour plays that have felt like a whirlwind and I've been to 90 minute musicals that have felt like an eternity.
- [34:42]
B
Okay, very fair, very fair. But anyways, for best play, may I say, when is the last time we've had a knee slapper win a comedy? You know what I mean? It's been. It's been dark and heavy, dramatic things like. Not to say that the Cottage necessarily would be. You know.
- [34:58]
A
Get that play out of your fucking mouth. The Cottage.
- [35:02]
B
Listen, listen, I did laugh, but right.
- [35:04]
A
In front of my salad. Dylan in the Cottage.
- [35:07]
B
Listen, Laura Bell did what needed to be done in the Cottage.
- [35:12]
A
She worked it for sure.
- [35:13]
B
She reminded us who Mother is, but Dana Steingold too. Dana Steingold as well. Yep.
- [35:18]
A
And Auntie Cool.
- [35:22]
B
Cool. Older steps this maybe.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah, she's.
- [35:25]
B
Anyway, but I. It's really interesting that we don't see comedies in this category very often anymore. I mean, the last time something maybe fun, one I would say was Harry Potter, but I don't even know if that's fun. It's just a WOWZA type thing.
- [35:40]
A
Yeah. I think Harry Potter had the benefit of a being a big titty hit and also being a British transfer. So there was like the prestige factor. And it was also two parts, both of which were three hours. Yeah.
- [35:51]
B
And British transfers typically win this.
- [35:54]
A
Yes, British playwrights win a lot for best play. I think the last time a genuine comedy one was God of Carnage, which was again a British import. Okay. But even that, like it was a comedy. But you know, people, I think that the reason why that also won was because it was just such a ginormous hit. It was with at least with those four original leads. Like that was a, that was an event, that show. But I think that might be the only like genuine comedy of the last 35 years to win.
- [36:32]
B
I'm scrolling back the list of winners. I mean, I maybe a Neil Simon. I, I'm truthfully not familiar with all of the wins of the 80s, but.
- [36:39]
A
Neil Simon has won twice. He won for Lost in Yonkers and he won for Bill Oxy Blues, both of which, you know, he's Simon. So they're comedies. But like the, that was his era of like comedies with heart and having dramatic moments. You know, those were not Barefoot in the park in the Odd Couple. Those were, you know, they, they had their turns. The Tonys generally don't, generally do not vote for comedies. They'll sometimes nominate them like a Noises, Offer a Lend Me a Tenor. But they usually don't win. And I think. Or Latin History for Morons, Tale of the Allergist's Wife. But again, I think because like there's a stigma with plays with Broadway where it's like, well, and we see this also sometimes with the Oscars where it's like you had your fun, but like this is a category for serious minded folk. Like musicals can be a comedy. Like you. We can, we can allow that to win. But like if you're a play, you gotta have something to say. You gotta have something on your mind.
- [37:37]
B
Right?
- [37:38]
A
And I mean it's the stigma that, you know, Barbie's fighting against right now.
- [37:41]
B
I was gonna say yeah.
- [37:43]
A
Where it's like, it's like, yeah, you have something in your mind, like you're the Barbie movie. Like, just be grateful you got the nomination. I'm like, motherfucker, you know how hard it is to appeal to the masses and have something to say and like.
- [37:53]
B
And be pink.
- [37:55]
A
And be pink. Listen, I've now seen all the best actress nominees, and I gotta say, there are two slots that Margot Robbie could have easily slid on into Dance the Night Away into, and we'll leave it at that.
- [38:07]
B
Okay. We'll talk off podcast. I don't want to. I don't want to isolate our listeners here who might not be the movie viewers, all the.
- [38:15]
A
All the Naiad fans. So. Okay, so Play. So first of all, Revival, I think we've got Pearly victorious. Pretty much a short thing, if appropriate, is Revival. Sure thing. Then, you know, we'll see what happens with Enemy of the People in Uncle Vanya. I've heard solid things about Doubt. I think that there's going to be a lot of goodwill for that production now that Ms. Amy Ryan has come in at the last second to save it. But I don't know. I don't know. I think. I think Enemy of the People and. And Uncle Vanya are such wild cards right now.
- [38:48]
B
Truly.
- [38:49]
A
Yeah.
- [38:50]
B
I mean, I guess Pearly could be a no because it's closed, but that doesn't really matter for Play in revival.
- [38:56]
A
Play in revivals. Play. Revival.
- [38:58]
B
Top Dog won last year, so, yeah.
- [39:00]
A
Revival of Play tends to be like the category where you can totally be closed and still win. Like, they. They're like, no, don't worry. Don't worry about it. We got you.
- [39:08]
B
And that goes to the writer, right? When it's the revival.
- [39:10]
A
No, it goes for revival. It goes to the producer. When it's the. When it's play, it goes to the writer.
- [39:14]
B
Okay, okay.
- [39:15]
A
They changed that now. Now that there's no longer author of a play. Right.
- [39:19]
B
Okay. Which is.
- [39:21]
A
Yeah, producers get a Tony no matter what, but. Oh, no, wait. Shit, you might be right. I think Revival of play they give to the writer now as well.
- [39:30]
B
Because I felt like last year the writer of Top Dog, this was her first, and her name is escaping me for a second right now.
- [39:37]
A
Yes. Suzanne Laurie Parks.
- [39:38]
B
Susan Laurie Parks won, and it was her first Tony or her.
- [39:42]
A
Yeah, I think they changed that when, like, place that when, like, things like Jitney became revivals. And it was like, well, yeah, we want to honor August Wilson, but you know, we can't because it's revival. And Yeah, I think they changed that.
- [39:58]
B
Yeah. I'm seeing right here it is the.
- [39:59]
A
The.
- [40:02]
B
It looks like the writer.
- [40:03]
A
The writer gets it as well. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. So then that'll. That could work very well in appropriates favor.
- [40:10]
B
Okay.
- [40:11]
A
Or Pearly Victorious, Saver. I think Pearly Victorious. We'll definitely see a couple of nominations there. I think Revival, if it just ends up getting too crowded, could work against it. But Play, if. If we're. If we're living in a universe where appropriate, has officially been deemed a revival. I think we're looking at stereophonic with a bullet.
- [40:37]
B
Prayer for the French Republic.
- [40:38]
A
Yes, Prayer for the French Republic.
- [40:41]
B
Important.
- [40:42]
A
Very important. She's over three hours. She'll tell you. I. I saw Prayer for the French Republic off Broadway, and then I saw the transfer, and I gotta say, I liked it more off Broadway. There's some casting changes that I think are for the weaker on Broadway and on a larger stage. I felt more bloat with this play. But it is still a good play. It is still a compelling play and I will not deny its nomination. I won't be mad about it. I hope that Betsy Item, I think that's her name.
- [41:14]
B
She the older woman in the show.
- [41:15]
A
Yeah, she plays the aunt. She plays aunt slash mother. Yeah, Betsy Item. I hope she gets in. I think she will, but we'll get to her when we get to her. Yeah. There's mother play coming in. Speaking of Mother by Paula Vogel, Jessica Lang. Jessica Lang, Celia Keenan Bolger and Jim Parsons.
- [41:36]
B
Wow.
- [41:36]
A
I mean, we're just sight unseen, you know, like this thing. I want it to be good. I hope it's good. Who knows if it's gonna be any good.
- [41:43]
B
Right.
- [41:43]
A
But I'm putting her in there just on a. Definitely. Yeah. On a whim.
- [41:47]
B
And I would say Patriots, the Peter Morgan play with Sonia. Sonia Friedman is producing. And that was again, a West End. So that's. You got that British import factor.
- [41:58]
A
So that's. I think we've got four so far. We've got. So we've got Stereophonic Prayer, Mother Play, Patriots, and then our fifth, There could be. I would love it for it to be Jaja's African hair braiding with.
- [42:09]
B
I heard only the best things about that.
- [42:11]
A
When I say delightful, Dylan, I mean delightful.
- [42:15]
B
Do we have comedy maybe written next to it? Is this our funny one? I think it's.
- [42:19]
A
It's mostly a comedy. It takes a bit of a heel turn in the last 10 minutes where it goes for the drama, which I, I don't. I didn't dislike it. It was a little like, we're in a new play now. But you, you, you still bought it because they had spent 80 minutes setting up everything else so well that you're like, I'm. I'm fine. I'm into it. But we also have possibly Mary Jane with. With Rachel McAdams, but unclear if that's going to be new or revival.
- [42:51]
B
Right. Because it was at New York Theatre Workshop.
- [42:53]
A
It was. And I don't. Yeah. And I don't think this is a direct transfer. Right, right.
- [42:59]
B
That's interesting.
- [43:00]
A
I don't know. Maybe the cottage does get in there after all that.
- [43:02]
B
Listen. Or, you know, Greyhouse, which was definitely an interesting stab in the dark on Broadway.
- [43:09]
A
Yes. I would like very much for Gray House to get a set design nomination in the play categories. If it does not, I will not cry tears. But, you know, that play, it did exist. I had many conversations after I saw it, and no one has really spoken of it since.
- [43:27]
B
Yeah. Like a ghost in the night, it's vanished. But listen, I wouldn't be surprised if Laurie Metcalf got in.
- [43:32]
A
Never underestimate Laurie Metcalf. Never.
- [43:34]
B
Never.
- [43:34]
A
She is the Diane Warren of the Tonys.
- [43:39]
B
Except she actually has some Tonys.
- [43:41]
A
You know, she does have two. She has hardware of her own. Yes, but just in the sense of, like, girlfriend will pop up when you're like, oh, no one will care about that. And it's like. And the Tonys say to the world, we don't care about that, but we care about Laurie.
- [43:56]
B
Right, exactly. Exactly. So if there's a closed show, maybe it would be Jaja's African hair braiding. Yeah, well, I feel comfortable with that list.
- [44:05]
A
Yeah. I think Prayer will be closed by the time the nominations come out.
- [44:08]
B
True.
- [44:08]
A
But it will have run for almost three months. And, yeah, she's important. So we're. We're saying then that the shark is broken, not getting in there.
- [44:18]
B
No, neither that nor I need that with Danny and DeVito and Teresa Rebeck of Smash Infamy.
- [44:26]
A
You didn't see I Need that, did you?
- [44:28]
B
No.
- [44:29]
A
Moving on.
- [44:32]
B
So, listen, I live out of town. When I come into the city, I have to be very strategic with what I can see in the five to seven days that I'm there.
- [44:39]
A
You do not need to defend yourself to me. I saw. I Need that. It had a turntable that was nice and unexpected.
- [44:47]
B
Hamilton. Hamilton's impact.
- [44:49]
A
Yeah. Well, you famously know there were no turntables before Hamilton.
- [44:53]
B
Never.
- [44:54]
A
Never. They invented the Lazy Susan musical revival. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say, merrily, we roll along, we'll get nominated.
- [45:04]
B
Yeah, definitely. Merrily versus Cabaret and the big ones. And then I would say the who's Tommy is an exciting revival. I mean, it won Best musical when it was around back in the day.
- [45:13]
A
It didn't win musical.
- [45:14]
B
It didn't best director.
- [45:16]
A
It won director. Yeah, that was the case where they won director. They tied for score, which. Which never happens. They won choreography, I think, set design, and then Spider Woman ended up winning musical. Yeah, that was a. That was an interesting Tony year, and that's one that I would love to dissect one day when I. When I have time. Maybe I'll do, like. I don't know, maybe I'll take over for my little Tonys and start dissecting Tony ceremonies.
- [45:39]
B
There's a gap in the. In the market for that, for sure.
- [45:41]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's Merily versus Cabaret. I think Tommy will get in for a nomination if it's a big enough hit. It could maybe happen right now with Merilee. Merilee is such a moment in the season that I think it has a lot going for it. The fact that it'll still be running will help, because I've said this before, I'll say it again. If you are a musical and you are competing, you need to be running. Recency bias is very much a thing with Tony voters. And it doesn't matter how beloved you were when you were running, if you're not running now, it's an uphill battle. We saw this happen last year with into the woods, where everyone was like, I don't know. It could happen. I was like, I'm telling you, it's not gonna happen.
- [46:27]
B
Nominations, though.
- [46:28]
A
Yeah, no, they'll nominate. They'll nominate you from here to your dead. But you really.
- [46:33]
B
I mean, literally, they will.
- [46:34]
A
They will. They literally will do it. But no, like, you have to remind voters so much how much they loved you. And even then, it's. I mean, the last performance in a musical to win a Tony that had closed, I believe, was Martin Short and Little Me. And that was 1999.
- [46:53]
B
Yeah, there you go.
- [46:54]
A
Yeah. And that was a category where he was one of three people that were in close shows. The only per. The only contender in that category, Dylan, who is in a running show, was Tom Wopat and Annie get your gun.
- [47:05]
B
Oh, wow.
- [47:06]
A
Yes. And I think all voters looked around and said, ma', am, this is a Wendy's. And, like, we're not doing that. We're simply not.
- [47:13]
B
What did they know? What did they know? Anyways, I. I am wondering about Gutenberg, because it was such a hit.
- [47:22]
A
Yeah.
- [47:23]
B
But your. Your hope, all your points taken into that. And then I will say, I saw the Wiz. It came through Cleveland and I do not think it is going to get nominated.
- [47:34]
A
I would agree with you on that. There's. I will having not seen it, but you're the fourth person to see it and inform me that it's not a Tony contender. But also, I gotta say, like here in the city right now, that is a revival that no one is talking about.
- [47:52]
B
People supposed to be open ended and then they decided it's going to be just until like late summer.
- [47:56]
A
Yeah. It's going to be like a stop as on. On this tour, which doesn't help their. Their status at all. I mean, I think that fourth spot, it's definitely. It's Gutenberg v. Spamalot for the fourth spot.
- [48:06]
B
Yeah.
- [48:06]
A
And I think there was a moment when everyone thought Spamalot was gonna get it because I'll. I will also say this, and this is. This doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion so much as again, sort of where the community's at. When spam lot was in previews, everyone here was very not on it. No one was really about it. And then the reviews came out and they were extremely positive.
- [48:32]
B
Right.
- [48:33]
A
And it's not so much that everybody changed their tune so much as everyone kind of changed their public Persona of it. And I know that they're gonna. They intend to keep that running till Tony time. They got a very good deal with the St. James, so they're. It's not as expensive to run it as people might assume. Okay. But it's. It. It's not. It's also not really the hit that I think people thought it was starting to become like. Because it ever. When it was announced, everyone went, why are they doing that? No one's gonna go see it. And then like it actually did start selling kind of well and now it's kind of gone back to being the show that everyone's like, yeah, you know, Spamalot, she's here. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna say Gutenberg for number four.
- [49:18]
B
Okay. I'm gonna say Spamalot.
- [49:21]
A
Fantastic. Yeah.
- [49:22]
B
Just to be a little bit different, but I think that it'll get in for some performances and so I think that could also help.
- [49:28]
A
We'll see. We will see.
- [49:29]
B
I1 in particular, from what I hear.
- [49:32]
A
Well, we'll see about that category, baby. Because that's a crowded category. So score.
- [49:41]
B
Let's do score. Okay.
- [49:43]
A
Yes. I've got Notebook, Paralyzed Love, Days of Wine and Roses, Lempicka and Stereophonic.
- [49:53]
B
Oh, wow. Okay. Okay.
- [49:55]
A
Who. Who are you disagreeing with?
- [49:58]
B
I Am unsure about Lempicka, even though I, as I'm a Stan, obviously of woman is.
- [50:05]
A
I'm saying this to someone who was like, I don't know about that song.
- [50:08]
B
I know. I think that Barry Manilow and Bruce Sussman will get in for Harmony. Interesting. Yeah. I think that the star power. I also think that just like the story behind the whole thing being gestating for over 20 years and it's. You know, to me it's an old guard voting decision, but you never know. But I do think it's going to mostly be the big celebs that get in for the score.
- [50:31]
A
I do think this is. There are three categories where I see Harmony could possibly surprise. This is one of them. So I do have an asterisk next to Harmony. I don't particularly predict it, but watch it happen and I'll be like, yeah. Not surprised. I think it's. Other two possibilities are choreography, again, because that category is just sort of the Wild west right now. And then actor in a musical. And that is another one where I'm still not entirely sure that is a case where it's like, could totally happen. Could totally not. They're like two very distinct timelines right now.
- [51:09]
B
Totally. Did you see the Gold Derby piece about Chip Zion for that?
- [51:13]
A
No. What did they say?
- [51:15]
B
That it could happen.
- [51:18]
A
That's all.
- [51:19]
B
Anyways, I. I think ghetto for sure. The days. I'm with you on that. I'm with you on Notebook. I'm with you on Shayna, Todd for stuffs.
- [51:29]
A
And then.
- [51:29]
B
Is it usually just four?
- [51:31]
A
It's five now.
- [51:31]
B
It's five now. Okay. I could see Jamestown Revival and Justin Levine for the Outsiders. I've heard some of it and I think it's definitely a vibe. And I want to do Stereophonic as well.
- [51:43]
A
Cool. I. I love that we're both very gung ho. I'm like, I'm gonna. Gonna put that one in there and I'm gonna make you. I'm gonna make you expect it.
- [51:51]
B
Yes. I mean, it's a play with music, you know, so you can't count it out.
- [51:55]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think that we have. Okay. So I have to kind of think because it's. Here Lies Love Days, Wine and Roses, Harmony, how to Dance in Ohio, Back to the Future, Lempicka Suffs, Great Gatsby, Stereophonic, Outsiders, Water for Elephants and Notebook. I think Water for Elephants is a possible upset nomination.
- [52:16]
B
Mm.
- [52:17]
A
I think so. I think Dates of Wine and Roses and Notebook are absolute locks. Those are. Those are absolutely getting in no. No questions asked. And then after that, it really is up in the air. If I'm. If we are both as gung ho about stereophonic as we say we are, I'll make that my number three for now. Just in terms of like locked in nomination. And then I said lempicka. And then I said Here lies Love.
- [52:40]
B
You said suffs is your last one, right?
- [52:43]
A
Oh, did I? Or did I say Here lies love and stuff? No, maybe I said stuffs in limpika. Okay, I feel like. I also feel like this is a category where Here Lies Love could get in.
- [52:54]
B
Okay.
- [52:57]
A
Especially if we are saying there's a world in which it could get a In Memoriam musical nomination. Yeah, I don't think that's happening without a score nomination.
- [53:09]
B
And that's David Byrne, right?
- [53:11]
A
David Byrne and Fat Boy Slim.
- [53:14]
B
Well, they're gonna want to just read that on nomination morning, so.
- [53:17]
A
Absolutely, I will. It's. I would love a world in which, like Judith Light, it's like Here lies Love, David Byrne and Fat Boy Slim just in her chunky necklace. Or like Christine Baranski. I want like a white, white diva, huh?
- [53:36]
B
Absolutely. Anyone from the gilded age.
- [53:40]
A
With those hats that look like vaginas. So I said. I said Days of Wine and Roses. I already forgot everything I said. I said Days of Wine and Roses. Stereophonic. The Notebook. I said lempicka. I said cephs. I'm going to take out Lempicka and put in Here lies Love. And that is where I'm at for right now.
- [54:00]
B
I love it.
- [54:01]
A
Okay. And you have harmony.
- [54:02]
B
I have harmony.
- [54:03]
A
Okay, Harmony. All right, I think that's decent for now. Let's now get into best actor of musical. But before we do that, let us take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a coolidge. And we're back.
- [54:33]
B
What a great break.
- [54:34]
A
What a great break. Actor in a musical, though we've got two locks here at the moment. They are Jonathan Groff and Mary Lee. Roll along. Brian Darcy James in Days of Wine and Roses. I will not discuss of those two who I would vote for just yet. You can hear all about that come May.
- [54:51]
B
But I think I'm going to submit Eddie Redmayne for Cabaret.
- [54:55]
A
I'm also going to submit Eddie Redmayne for Cabaret. I think again, that is a performance I have not seen yet. The very fact that it is the MC in Cabaret, that's Already, a cabaret has a lot of roles that are very much like Tony Bate. Ironically, one of them that is not. Is actually Sally Bowles. That is a role that doesn't always get nominated.
- [55:15]
B
Right. The first time it was up to bat. Right. It didn't get nominated.
- [55:19]
A
Yeah. Jill Hayworth did not get nominated. Michelle Williams did not get nominated. I think Alison reed in the 80s did. And then Natasha famously won in the 90s. Famously. So. But we'll see what happens. Gail Rankin is a very talented lady, but no, Eddie, I think, will get nominated that role. He won the Olivier for it. Right. He has the prestige. He's well liked. So, yeah, I think that those are probably our three locks. And then we've got two spots left.
- [55:46]
B
We do. And I want to say that I do think Chip Zion could get this legacy Tony nomination here. He's never been nominated.
- [55:53]
A
He has never been nominated. That show very much centered around Tim. Let's talk through the rest of these possible contenders, because I am trying to convince myself of one way or the other, I need to stand my ground. I don't know what ground to stand on.
- [56:11]
B
Well, if we're talking about this category so far is very white. And I do think one of the only possibilities for an actor of color is James Mineral Iglehart for Spamalot. That role obviously was nominated back in 2005 when it was Tim Curry, and he's a previous winner, James Monroe Iglehart. So it's a. It's a possibility.
- [56:33]
A
It is a possibility. He's. He was not a standout for me in that production, but that's because that role is very much the straight man of the show. It's. And it worked with Tim Curry because, you know, he's Tim Curry.
- [56:49]
B
He's that verve, you know.
- [56:51]
A
Yeah. He, like. He just sort of looks out at the audience so dryly, and we go to pieces. And I mean, Tim wasn't. Was sort of a divisive performance in 2005. So just because James is also, like, not divisive, but, like, just because James isn't bowling me over in 20, 23, 24, doesn't mean he won't get in. It happened before it could it. So that could definitely happen, I think. What's the actor who's playing opposite Marion Plunkett in the Notebook?
- [57:20]
B
Dorian Harewood.
- [57:21]
A
Yeah.
- [57:22]
B
I don't know what they're doing with these. Is it a fun home situation where the eldest gets the lead and the rest get supporting featured or.
- [57:31]
A
So that is the question, because the one person I Know who saw it in Chicago, said he felt that Ryan Vasquez and Joy woods were really the leads and that everything else was supporting. But all reports from Broadway have been that Marion Plunkett and Dorian feel like the leads and that the younger couples feel like, you know, facets and support to them. So if, I mean, if Marion's going to be the lead, Dorian maybe could be the male lead. Again, I haven't seen the show, so I don't know what happens. I've been told that he doesn't have as much stage time as she does.
- [58:04]
B
Okay. And as a memory musical that's a double entendre. Even if they're those who know the content of the Notebook, it. It could work then for him to be in lead. Yeah, he's telling the story to her.
- [58:21]
A
I also want to emphasize, y', all, we started to do this with the, with actresses and musicals, and I love it and I wish. I want us to start doing it more with the actors in a musical. Diversity is not just ethnicity, it's also age. We haven't had a lot of older male winners in actor in a musical. We the last. We've had Vicky win for Kimberly Akimbo.
- [58:45]
B
Right.
- [58:45]
A
Which I love. And I would love to kind of continue this trend of like actresses over 50 winning lead actress in a musical.
- [58:55]
B
Yeah. Why not?
- [58:56]
A
Yeah. Why the. Not. So like, if that gives us Marianne Plunkett for the Notebook, I'm. I'm so fucking here for it.
- [59:03]
B
I guess I'm trying to think like Billy Crystal was nominated a few years ago.
- [59:06]
A
Yeah. And like Hugh was. Is. Was over 50, I think, when he was nominated for Music Man. But in terms of winners, we've had, We've had, we've had. We've had two bipoc winners for lead actor in a musical. Back to back with Jay and Miles.
- [59:24]
B
Yeah.
- [59:24]
A
But, you know, it's. I think just sometimes this might be a category where it might end up being all white. And I think we might just have to kind of accept that because I think we're going to see a lot of diversity in other categories. And sometimes that's just the way the cards fall. Yeah.
- [59:40]
B
I mean, we had a. It was a non binary win last year, too.
- [59:43]
A
We had two non binary wins last year.
- [59:44]
B
Non binary wins.
- [59:45]
A
Yeah, some. I think we can't let, you know, one category in one year define like a trend. Like things just sort of happen. Change comes fast and change comes slow, as Caroline or change very famously said.
- [59:56]
B
She did say that. She did. Okay, so then that that leads us to all the hunks. This. This. In this category, we got Corey Cott. You got Grant Gustin, Jeremy Jordan. My boy Casey likes. You know, you have all these cute leading men, and then any of them.
- [60:11]
A
Who's the twink in the Outsiders? Who's playing Ponyboy? Brody?
- [60:15]
B
Grant. I don't know. I'm not sure yet. I mean, I would assume it's based on the material.
- [60:21]
A
I don't know. I don't know. I've. I've had friends go in for the Outsiders, and when I've asked them about the. The sides they did, they're like, it was cute. I'm like, okay.
- [60:31]
B
Okay.
- [60:32]
A
Yeah. Okay. I think Grant could get in there. That's a role that's very large. Yeah. And very physically impressive. So that could absolutely help. He's also. Yes. He's a TV star. Come. Coming to Broadway, and that's very helpful. I mean, this could be a case where, you know, Andrew and Josh are able to kind of come in. And because there's so much confusion of, like, who the last two spots should be, they kind of just end up getting in there through sheer likability and doing such a good job with Gutenberg and, like, being the reason that show worked.
- [61:07]
B
Yeah. I mean, they should. Alice and Emily it, though, because they were truly on stage together the whole time.
- [61:12]
A
They should. They should. I still wonder. With Alice and Emily joint nomination. I'm like, I don't know. Because Daisy got hers, but Violet did not get hers on that tunnel of love. I know. And. And those women should be treated separately as such. The orgasm track and the Phantom orgasm track.
- [61:31]
B
The 90s were a different time. My friend Jeremy is a previous nominee.
- [61:35]
A
He is. And this is. And. And Gatsby is a very big show of which he and Ava are the center. I think he could absolutely get in just again by that show coming in so close to the end.
- [61:51]
B
Yeah.
- [61:52]
A
The downside of April is that there is a lot of overlap. And through sheer exhaustion and just, you know, mix and matching. I think that could end up being a detriment to some of the musicals in April of just like. I don't know, Like, I don't know what I thought of Jeremy and Gatsby because I just saw Cabaret yesterday and I saw Hard rock and Roll the day before that. Like, that is very much a thing. Heart of rock and roll. I've heard fun things about. I don't know how much.
- [62:23]
B
I agree.
- [62:23]
A
Yeah. I've heard. I don't know how much of an awards Contender it'll be. But that could also be a situation where, like, it surprises with, like six nominations, wins none of them, but like. Yeah, randomly gets in there for a couple.
- [62:33]
B
Because they're taking the Mamma Mia route, you know, original story with pre existing music, which I only know maybe.
- [62:41]
A
Yeah.
- [62:41]
B
Oh, for sure. The Margaritaville routes, I might say. And if the Paul Nolan extended universe I will Die on the Hill, that he should have been the fifth nominated slot that season in lead actor in a musical.
- [62:58]
A
Paul for Margaritaville. What year was that again? That was the year of 2018. Oh, so that was Band's visit year. Okay, so that was. Oh, because it was only four. There wasn't five that year. Okay. Yeah. I mean, listen, if one of those nominees could get in, why couldn't he? If we could have six actresses in a musical that year, why not five for actor?
- [63:19]
B
That was. I remember the big. But it's. But it's based on who's. How many eligible people they submit, Right?
- [63:24]
A
Sort. Sort of. So, yeah, it's. It's. You need nine contenders for five nominations, and so if it's under nine, it's four, but there can be a fifth. It's just a matter of how close the last two votes are. So, like, the reason why there were six actresses wasn't that, oh, there were just so many nominations. It's that my assumption is that, like, Taylor and Lachanze both, like, were one vote away from each other and that made it six.
- [63:53]
B
God, your recall is so incredibly inspiring that you're able to just pull who those six women were.
- [64:01]
A
Thank you. I'm glad you find it inspiring. I've been told by potential dates that it's a choice, so, you know, sure.
- [64:10]
B
They have their own interests too. That would make you, you know, raise an eyebrow. So that's not fair anyway.
- [64:15]
A
But, like, I don't do it by design. It's truly just how my brain works. And it's all you love. Sure. I don't, like, I don't go about being like, oh, I know. It's. You know, I just. I know. I just do. It's. I wish I could make my brain understand, like, law and I could become a lawyer and make money, but this is where my brain is at and.
- [64:34]
B
We love you for it. Okay, well, I feel. I feel good about Brian Darcy James.
- [64:38]
A
Yes.
- [64:38]
B
And Jonathan Groff. Eddie Redmayne, Chip Zion.
- [64:44]
A
Give me a fifth baby.
- [64:46]
B
Grant Gustin.
- [64:48]
A
Okay, I'm gonna give us two alternatives.
- [64:51]
B
Great.
- [64:53]
A
This the exact list you just gave me.
- [64:55]
B
Okay.
- [64:57]
A
And then A Brian, Jonathan, Eddy, Andrew, Josh.
- [65:01]
B
Okay.
- [65:02]
A
I don't. I don't totally invest in that second narrative, but I just want it out there in case something like it maybe happens. I need. I need us to have discussed it.
- [65:14]
B
Yeah, you're covering ground here. Okay.
- [65:15]
A
Exactly.
- [65:16]
B
I love it.
- [65:17]
A
Actress in a musical.
- [65:19]
B
The best category, right?
- [65:21]
A
Always. We have our divas. We've got. Kelly, I think is a lock.
- [65:26]
B
Absolutely.
- [65:28]
A
If. What if Marianne ends up being placed in leading? I think she's also a lock. Every single person who has reported back to me from the Notebook has been like, you are not ready for what Marian Plunkett does in this show.
- [65:40]
B
Wow. And she's a previous winner. She is a previous winner from 87 or 88.
- [65:45]
A
87. Yeah. From me and My Girl. This is her first Broadway musical since Me and My Girl. You wanna know what I love about Marianne Plunkett? That hoe. And I think I talked about this in the. In the Aida episode. That hoe beat out Patti LuPone to replace Bernadette Peters in Sunday in the park with George, when at the time her biggest credit was she was Agnes of God on tour. And Sondevan Lapine were like, you, we pick you over Tony winner Patti LuPone.
- [66:17]
B
That is a different universe we would have lived in.
- [66:19]
A
I know. Imagine Patti Lacona's dot. My God, that would have been a. That would have been a very fast performance of Sunday in the park with George. I like that. Yeah. So I think I. I'm putting Kelly and Marianne in this world in which Marianne is lead. I'm gonna say Malia for Hell's Kitchen.
- [66:38]
B
They love a newcomer in this category.
- [66:41]
A
They love to nominate a newcomer. Yeah. So actually, something I'll say. I've noticed this a lot with winners for lead actress in a musical. Then there are three trends, usually. Well, there are three trends in general. One is, you know, someone who has been around, has a lot of nominations and eventually wins like a Kelly o' Hara for King and I. Yeah. Sometimes a Broadway debut, first time nomination wins like a Cynthia Erivo.
- [67:10]
B
Yeah.
- [67:10]
A
And then what tends to happen is a person where it's like their first or second nomination, but not their first Broadway show. So like Heather Headley and Aida, her second Broadway show, first Tony nomination, she wins a Victoria Clarke for Lightning the Piazza. Quite a few Broadway shows. First nomination, she wins, you know, Jesse.
- [67:37]
B
Mueller after a few.
- [67:38]
A
Jesse Mueller for Beautiful, second nomination. When Donna Murphy for Passion. Three or four Broadway shows, first nomination, she wins. And then again for King and I, second Tony nomination. Wins.
- [67:50]
B
Wow.
- [67:50]
A
Yeah, it's, it's. They usually will give the ingenue who's, you know, on the scene the nomination of like, we are investing in you and make your next. Invest your next chip wisely.
- [68:05]
B
Courtney and, and Juliet.
- [68:07]
A
Exactly. And like whatever Michaela Diamond's next Tony nomination will be, if she's doing it wisely, she'll win like, right. You do the Jesse Mueller. Like, I got my chip. My next one is the one that wins me the award. And so I like, I think, I think Malia will get in as the ingenue. And then they're like, yeah. And they're like, yeah, here's your chip. What's your next role gonna be, girl? I think Gail Rankin, if all goes well with Cabaret. So that's four. And then there could be Ava.
- [68:40]
B
It could be a. Tony's nominated darling, you know, is.
- [68:44]
A
I think she's for as young as she is. She's now weirdly kind of going on the Kelly o' Hara track of like, you're. You're going to get nominated a lot and eventually win at some point. But like you keep on doing parts where like, we see you, we respect you, we love you. There's just like one or two nominees we like more.
- [69:06]
B
Yeah. Carmen Cusack might fall into the same. You know she's been nominated for both of her Broadway outings.
- [69:11]
A
I know. My God, it's. It's infuriating to me because in some ways I would have voted for her for one of them. It's just like I'm like, both of those shows needed to be better. Like if I'm like, if bright star were 25% better, would have voted for you. If Flying over sunset we're 40% better would have voted for you.
- [69:31]
B
Yeah. She's attached to. Is it an Anna Green Gables musical or something like that next? What?
- [69:38]
A
Talk about someone who's not using her chips wisely, mother fucker. Like, no, Carmen, you know what? Go like be major supporting in a great revival and win your Tony that way. Come like, do I need to be her agent? Because I, I am so invested in this bitch and I need her to be a Tony winner already.
- [69:57]
B
I know.
- [69:57]
A
You know, you have a really good.
- [69:58]
B
Chance of winning lead actress in a musical if the revival is really good. Like Cynthia is an example. Catherine Zeta Jones. Although that revival was, wasn't.
- [70:08]
A
It was. Well, they. Yes, they will give it to revival a lot. Yeah. There's Kelly for King and I, Cynthia for Color Purple, Catherine for Night Music and then Patti for Gypsy. Trying to think.
- [70:21]
B
There's Sutton in Anything Goes. Audra for Porgy and Bess.
- [70:24]
A
Yeah, all. But also usually for a role that has won before or has been, you know, recognized before, which helps, Gail, because Natasha won for Sally Bowles. Right. Like, you know, for example, I don't know. Like, I'm trying to think of a show where, like, the female lead wasn't recognized the first time around.
- [70:52]
B
Like a revival, you mean?
- [70:53]
A
Yeah. So, okay, let's say, like, let's say a really stellar production of Greece happens this year, and we've get. We get some bitch who, you know, totally does Sandy well. And I'm like, you're not winning, girl. Because no Sandy before has ever been recognized. And, like, the Tonys are not going to start with you. They. They usually need a precedent of, like, oh, this is a role that we recognize in the past. Mm.
- [71:15]
B
Like, Anita in West side Story typically gets nominated or wins something like that.
- [71:19]
A
Ironically, Maria has always been nominated every time west side Story comes on Broadway but never wins.
- [71:25]
B
Really?
- [71:25]
A
Isn't that crazy? Yeah, because Cheetah was not nominated the first time. Carol motherfucking Lawrence was for west side story in 57, which is crazy to me.
- [71:35]
B
Oh, and featured.
- [71:38]
A
Featured. Yeah. Yeah. And another example of. Speaking of Cynthia, a performer who gets nominated for their second Tony after a few Broadway shows and wins Lechon's in Color Purple.
- [71:48]
B
Yep.
- [71:49]
A
You know, interesting. Yeah, it's. It's a very interesting pattern. I. I did it. Sorry. I. I literally wrote this down because I was thinking about it on a treadmill the other day because I am. What a freak. I. I was like, how. What is the. The. The. The trend for this of how often someone wins if they are. I might have actually deleted it, but it's like, how often they get nominated when it's there, you know, second time or how many times they win. And I think of the last 35 years for lead actress in a musical, we've only had three Broadway debuts win. One was Cynthia, one was Catherine. So two. Two revivals where the previous person had won for the. For the originating role, and the third was Lea Salonga for Miss Saigon.
- [72:44]
B
Are we forgetting Marissa Jarrett Winoker, or had she been on Broadway before her show?
- [72:47]
A
Yeah, been on Broadway before.
- [72:48]
B
Okay.
- [72:49]
A
That was the case of, I think, second Broadway show, first Tony nomination anyway. Yeah.
- [72:53]
B
And never to return except for in Hairspray. Interesting stuff here. I definitely think that narrative of, like, overdue is more popular for you to get a winner than in the Oscars. Than it is on Broadway people could get nominated so many times, you know, and it's almost like a Danny Bursin or a Kelly o' Hare after six or seven that you finally get the win. But.
- [73:14]
A
Yeah, well, I think it's more eyes are on the Oscars, and so there's more of a social media push. And. And there are also way, way more award shows before the Oscars. So, like, momentum can really happen. Like, there's. I've been in the room for a couple of these quote unquote precursors, and the vibe is always weird because there's, like, what the community supports and the community, most of them aren't actually voters. So, like, I was at the Drama League awards where Stephen McKinley Henderson couldn't even begin his speech. He was. He didn't even win. He was. They were all just, like, going down the line of nominations for, like, distinguished performance. I was, like, saying one word and the room, like, wouldn't stop applauding so he could speak.
- [74:01]
B
And it gives me chills.
- [74:02]
A
Right. And I thought to myself, I was like, oh, this like, he might win the Tony because, like, and. Because then same thing happened to the drama desks. He got a special achievement award because his performance had already won.
- [74:14]
B
Right.
- [74:14]
A
Years earlier. And, like, at the Drama desk room, like, everyone was just flipping out for him. And I was like, oh, like, he. I think he's gonna win. And it didn't happen because. And then I. And I had to remind myself, oh, all those people who were going crazy weren't Tony voters. That's just, like, what we all felt. And then the Tony voters went off and did their own thing.
- [74:32]
B
As they tend to.
- [74:33]
A
As they tend to, you know, like, I think that. And there's also a bit of a. Sometimes there's like, a narrative that people will say and then do something else. Well, you'll. Everyone will hear me talk about this on the Slave Play episode that comes out right after this one, that was. That was a very public and classic example, grade A example of everyone saying one thing and then doing another.
- [74:58]
B
Yep. I mean, that. We could go down so many different routes here. But going back to actress, do you think that Eden has any sort of, you know, being the face?
- [75:05]
A
Oh, yeah. I totally forgot about Eden. Yeah. So we've got Kelly, Malia, Gail, Marianne, and then. Yeah, I think Eden is our fifth.
- [75:13]
B
What about Lindsay, though?
- [75:14]
A
Lindsay's actually in featured. Lindsay and Dan. Lindsay and Daniel are both in featured.
- [75:18]
B
So I pulled up the eligibility rulings and I was trying to find this. I didn't read it though. I pulled it up.
- [75:24]
A
Yeah. They've only done one ruling so far and it was post merily pre harmony.
- [75:29]
B
It says here. It says here. Featured.
- [75:33]
A
Yeah, Lindsay and Daniel are both in featured.
- [75:35]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [75:36]
A
And Jonathan is as lead.
- [75:38]
B
Okay. Well, that. That is a relief to me. Okay.
- [75:42]
A
Yeah.
- [75:42]
B
Okay.
- [75:42]
A
I think Lindsay's. I think both. I think all three of them are getting nominated. I don't. I'm gonna say this now. I don't think Lindsay's winning. And it's truly because of the attendance stuff, which, you know, I'm not here to make any judgment call. It's just attendance has always affected wins. It costs Donna her a Tony for wonderful town. It's cost many people Tonys in the past.
- [76:09]
B
Wow, that's interesting. What about when who was the lead of on the 20th century and she famously had really bad attendance. Not when Kristen did it, but Madeline Kahn. Madeline Kahn. Didn't she have like a really rotten attendance record?
- [76:22]
A
Yeah, so she. Madeline, what she had was she had an inconsistency record. She would like come on one day and do the show totally full out and like the next day totally half ass it. And then she started to miss pretty early. And when Judy K. Just was like slaying the boots down House mama, they. The team went up to Madeline Khan and they were like, so you clearly don't want to be here and the show is suffering because of it. Like, do you want to just go and like, go do movies? And she was like, I actually would really like that. Thank you. So I think Madeline was only in the show for like two months before Judy took over. And they tried to petition Judy K. To be eligible because she had done so much of the run by that point. And the Tony said, nope, sorry. Madeline opened it and she's been. And. And the Tonys had been to Hell Prince once before for Company for the same thing for Larry Kurt instead of Dean Jones. And they're like, never again. We do not want to set a precedent that you get what you want. So. No, it's. It's going to be Madeline. Sorry about it.
- [77:17]
B
Wow. Okay. Okay, so we have Eden, Lindsay, Malia Kelly.
- [77:21]
A
No Lindsay. No Lindsay.
- [77:22]
B
Sorry, sir. Eden, Marianne, Malia, Kelly, and gail. Now, Izzy McCalla or Isabella, she goes professionally.
- [77:31]
A
I. I'm calling her Izzy because I've never met her, but I speak so highly of her anytime I can.
- [77:37]
B
It's the Pippa thing. Everyone calls her Pippa even though they don't know her.
- [77:40]
A
Yeah, I. Was it you who messaged me after I I said on the podcast, like Pippa, to those of us who don't know her. Uh huh.
- [77:47]
B
That is like so funny and true. It's like, oh my God, how do you voice these. These commonly thought things? Oh my God, it's. It's amazing.
- [77:53]
A
Thank you. I'm. I'm the voice of many generations because we're famously not the same generation.
- [77:58]
B
Famously. Now, what about Jen Colella in subs? Is she the lead?
- [78:02]
A
I think Shayna Taub's the lead of Suffs.
- [78:04]
B
Shayna Taub is the lead. Okay, well, could we get a Lin Manuel situation here?
- [78:08]
A
We could. I think if Shayna's. It depends on how stuff gets received.
- [78:15]
B
Okay.
- [78:16]
A
If it tbd, if it gets strong reviews, like, I think it needs to truly get raves for Shayna to get nominated all around because she'll be eligible for actress book and score. And I think at the moment, score is her best bet.
- [78:30]
B
Okay.
- [78:32]
A
Yeah. Especially because this, I mean, all. Both categories are tough, but I think that's the one really to get her in there. Actress. I don't know, because I'm also thinking of. Of Izzy for Water for Elephants, which is just. I just don't know how that show is going to petition her because I, again, having only seen the first 30 minutes, she didn't really feel like the female lead. But that's because the story begins with Grant.
- [79:00]
B
Right.
- [79:00]
A
And eventually more happens with them. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. We're. We're. We're unfortunately crossing off Ms. Jacobs for here Lies Love, who did a very nice job.
- [79:15]
B
I did not see her, but I heard she was great.
- [79:18]
A
She sang it very well. She didn't really have the gravitas for the second half when Imelda becomes like full blown narcissist dictator's wife. Yeah. But she. She sang great and she looked so good in that wig.
- [79:33]
B
And no Briga Healing for Once Upon a One More Time and who. Anyone else? No female leads from how to Dance in Ohio or Harmony. So, yeah, I think that's where we're at.
- [79:45]
A
Yeah, I get. We. I guess we don't know what's going to happen with Mackenzie Kurtz for part of Rock and Roll. And we are technically killing off Ava for Gatsby. But I. From what I hear, they have not developed the role of Daisy enough to really sell that. If. I think if she and Jeremy get nominated, it is purely because we all understand that they are so talented and beloved. Broadway.
- [80:13]
B
Yeah.
- [80:13]
A
Yeah. And not necessarily because the roles themselves have helped them, which. Listen, that hasn't happened. That has absolutely happened in the past. Yeah, let's take. Let's take a second break. Okay. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow color. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble.
- [80:39]
B
Are we moving on to my favorite categories?
- [80:43]
A
Well, first of all, we're back and. Yeah. So what are some of your favorite categories? Tell me.
- [80:50]
B
The featured actor and actress in a musical. That is always my favorite.
- [80:53]
A
Oh, I thought you were going to say sound design of a play. Sure. Let's. Let's talk about. Let's talk about featured actor and actress of a musical. Dealer's choice. Which one do you want to do first, babe?
- [81:02]
B
Actor, actor.
- [81:03]
A
Featured actor in a musical. Fantastic. Let's start.
- [81:06]
B
I mentioned it earlier, but I do think that Paul Nolan could be one of those overdue narrative Tony Award nominations here.
- [81:15]
A
I would love nothing more. I. So I. Again, not even having seen him in this show yet, having seen the 30 minutes, I think it was Sebastian Arcellus who did the role there. But, you know, it's the villain of the show, which helps. You know, it's a.
- [81:35]
B
He had that in Parade as well.
- [81:37]
A
Yes. And this is a much more central to the plot role than in Parade. And I gotta say, he. Oh, God, he. He's. He's never bad. I've. Oh, every time I see him, I'm like, you're just so good at what you do, and you're so special and you're so versatile. I. I adore that man. And the fact that he wasn't a Tony nominee for Jesus Christ Superstar or Bright Star or Slave Play. Slave Play should have. The man dropped trowel for all of us, and he still couldn't get fucking nominated. I was like, what does this man have to do? Like, I. He sang Jesus Christ Superstar. So incredibly, he was the second best performance in Bright Star after Carmen Cusack. Made fucking meals out of boiled potatoes was the redeeming quality of Dr. Zhivago comes in and provides all the grit and heat to Parade. And then, you know, again shows off his incredible, beautiful self in Slave Play. And I'm like, why we. Why do we keep sleeping on him? And yet we give certain jars of mayonnaise awards. I don't understand. Dylan, make it make sense.
- [82:46]
B
That was such an eloquent. I don't want to call it a tirade, but maybe a.
- [82:50]
A
Like a.
- [82:50]
B
You Know, just. You're pleading the case, and I could. You know, I could see it happening for him this year.
- [82:55]
A
I really hope so. I. We're. I think you and I need to start making that campaign happen now. He's not going to do it himself. He's much. He's much too booked and blessed and not caring. I'm going to. I'm going to put him down. I'm going to put him down for that. Because that role, I just think it's going to be one of the more interesting parts of that show, especially with him in it. And if we keep that narrative going, we'll be good. I do think Daniel. Mr. Radical.
- [83:19]
B
Of course. Of course.
- [83:20]
A
His first Tony nomination for Merrily.
- [83:22]
B
Yes. And it's a deserved one.
- [83:24]
A
Yeah. He's good in the show. He is very good. I mean, Franklin Shepherd, Inc. Is a song that just, you know, if you do it well. And featured actor and actress. I was more featured actress, I would say.
- [83:37]
B
I know you're gonna say. Yeah.
- [83:38]
A
Well, there's the. The trend for that award tends to be a really big moment that makes it your narrative. Featured actor. It's a little less the case, but it does happen. And, you know, with. With Alex. With independently owned Matt Doyle for getting married today, usually featured actor tends to be more about, like, the vibe you're setting. Like Andrew Andre de Shields in Hadestown or Ariel Stossel and Band's visit. It's not usually like you get the one song, but if you do get the one song, you tend to get nominated. Right. And so I think that's where Daniel is. I'm hoping that Paul has a moment like that in Water for Elephants. It could just be the vibe he sets. That's also why I'm like, I'm gonna go on a limb and say that he won't. He may not get nominated, but I want to throw Conrad Rick Amora into the chat for Heroize Love.
- [84:32]
B
Yes.
- [84:32]
A
Because he. That's like. That was a performance that is classic featured actor in a musical catnip where it was like. He was just a constant vibe that you. It was such a welcoming presence throughout the entire show. Mm.
- [84:43]
B
And is there something. If you die in a show, you get nominated. You know, he. He definitely has a big, big death scene.
- [84:50]
A
He sure do. They do. They do like to. To reward musicals where the actor dies. Okay.
- [84:58]
B
Steven Skybell for Cabaret. I almost feel like is gonna happen. It's. The Oliviers don't always and almost never transfer to what the Broadway community decides for Tony Awards. But this is the first time in Olivier history that all four musical acting categories were won by one show, when Cabaret won also.
- [85:17]
A
Herr Schultz is a role that every production on Broadway of Cabaret has been nominated.
- [85:24]
B
Okay, that was Danny Burstein.
- [85:26]
A
It was Danny Burstein, Ron Rifkin, who won in 98, Jack Guilford for the original. And then I don't remember the name of the actor who did it in 88, but he was nominated.
- [85:38]
B
Okay, well, the Herschel's.
- [85:39]
A
Oh, yeah, he always gets nominated. And Skybell is phenomenal casting.
- [85:45]
B
Yeah, he was in that fit. The Yiddish fiddler. Right?
- [85:47]
A
He sure was. And he was my favorite Tevya. He's. I gotta say, everything I've seen from this London cabaret, all, like, the footage they've shown has truly turned me off. It looked so try hard, but they got me because this Broadway casting is really fucking good.
- [86:05]
B
Yes. I did see this in London last year when I went, and it was my first time ever seeing Cabaret live. And so it is a sensory overload. And the way that the staging is with the. I don't know how they're going to do this with the August Wilson, but it's sort of like there's two sides, almost like an arena type thing. And so it was hard to see at times, sure. But it was a lot to take in. I'm really hoping I'm able to snag a ticket somehow to see this iteration of it, because it is pricing people out. And that's the conversation so far.
- [86:37]
A
Yeah, that. And that's also one of the things with Merrily that has. I. I think Merrily right now, and I know we're talking about feature after musical, but like with the Tonys, we don't really get like Tony villains the way that Oscars get Oscar villains. You know, like every year there's like. Like Maestro La La Land, Green Book. Like, there's like the movie that becomes like, Radioactive. Right. We don't usually get that. Sometimes we do. Like, Miss Saigon was kind of famously a Tony villain because of. Of its whole coming to Broadway narrative.
- [87:11]
B
Right.
- [87:12]
A
Merrily isn't really going to become a Tony villain leading up to the awards, but I will say that the producers of that production have not really been doing themselves any favors because they have been out pricing a lot of people with that show, making it such like a. You know, not only because it's such an event. They've made it so difficult for a lot of people to see it because it's so expensive.
- [87:36]
B
Right.
- [87:37]
A
And then the way that they've been handling absences with that show because it's not the actor's fault. Like, it's not up to the actors to inform the public when they're going on, when they're going off. And also, it's not their job to inform everyone, like, what's going on in their lives that they can't make it. But if the producers know when actors aren't going to be on and if an actor is above the title, I think it's. It's a nice courtesy to be like, hey, so and so will be out these upcoming shows. They are doing that for some of the actors and not for others.
- [88:07]
B
Right.
- [88:07]
A
And it is rubbing a lot of people in the community the wrong way.
- [88:12]
B
And it's putting heat on the performer as opposed to the producers, which is unfair. They already give us so much of themselves on stage. Just give them an adjusted performance schedule.
- [88:22]
A
We talked about this. Not you and I, but the world at large. We talked about this when, you know, with. This happened with Benansi, with Into the Woods. It happened with Donna Murphy, with Wonderful Town, where they were going through something physically where they couldn't do the show eight times a week. And in truth, probably should have taken, like, six weeks off and then come back.
- [88:43]
B
Right.
- [88:44]
A
But because for Donna, because she was the lead, they couldn't do that. And Laura, you know, she was getting misdiagnosed and not knowing what to do, and the producers just kept it hidden, and the performer's reputation got damaged because of it and hurt their chances at winning an award. Benanti very much could have won for into the woods if it weren't for the attendant stuff. And if the narrative went from, oh, she's missing all the time, to, like, she is physically injured with, like, a spine that is almost about to kill her, and yet she's still going on half the time. Like, the narrative would have changed.
- [89:17]
B
Right.
- [89:18]
A
But so. And sometimes we do that. We tend to do it with men, unfortunately. Like when Danny Burstein had to leave Moulin Rouge for six weeks, they informed us and they said exactly why. But they won't say when a woman is injured or when a woman has things going on. We're like, she can't go on all the time. And so I would like us. I think this is the phone, Dylan, that you and I publicly state. Let's not turn that narrative on the performer. Let's turn to the producers and say, you need to do a better job. And if you won't, I'm not gonna blame the former. I'M gonna blame you.
- [89:51]
B
Yep. Protect your artists. You know, they're a huge draw, and careers are so fragile.
- [89:56]
A
Mm. They are. And. And you have, as you said, performers have to give us so much. And especially in a show where you have to do your best to repeat an experience eight times a week, make it still feel fresh, try to keep your personal life at bay. But also, if your personal life is not going great. And this is not merely specific, this is true of many performers, because Lord knows we have seen many performers have trauma going on in their lives and still have to go on.
- [90:25]
B
Oh, my God.
- [90:26]
A
Yeah.
- [90:26]
B
One bad thing happens to me, and I want to cancel my plans and never work again. You know, it's like these people go on every single night.
- [90:33]
A
One inconvenient thing happens to me, Dylan. And I'm like, it's me. Hi. I'm the victim. It's me. Like, never, ever, ever, ever want to see the sunlight again. Yeah. Yeah. So this brings us back to feature actor and musical.
- [90:47]
B
Of course it does.
- [90:48]
A
We said so. Yeah, we said Daniel, we said Paul, we said Stephen. I think those are. I'm. I'm saying Stephen and. And Daniel Locke. No matter what, we are manifesting. Paul. Mm. I'm gonna manifest. Conrad. Don't think it's gonna happen, but I'm gonna do my best to manifest.
- [91:06]
B
Ryan Vasquez is my next offering to this possibility.
- [91:11]
A
I would absolutely love to put Ryan in there. I think there's a shot for Brandon Victor Dixon in Hell's Kitchen.
- [91:18]
B
Right.
- [91:19]
A
He's pretty much absent in Act 1, but he comes back in Act 2 and sings two big, big songs. There's that.
- [91:25]
B
That goes to your theory earlier, so.
- [91:27]
A
It sure do. There's also a possibility that someone from Tommy could jump in there.
- [91:31]
B
Right. Because a lot of the. I think when Tommy came around the first time, everybody was in featured, basically.
- [91:36]
A
Yeah. But I think this time they're going to try to petition the Tommy as lead and everyone else is featured.
- [91:41]
B
Okay. So it'll be like Adam Jacobs.
- [91:43]
A
Adam Jacobs. Whoever's playing Uncle Ernie, whoever's playing Cousin Kevin. You know, those. Those are roles where they each get, like, a moment, but mostly they're vibes. So it's. It's a little bit of both worlds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know what's happening with Heart of Rock and Roll or Lempicka. I don't know what those shows are like, George.
- [92:03]
B
George Abud. Or is it a bood from the band's visit is like the male lead. So to Speak in limpica.
- [92:11]
A
Sure. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know.
- [92:14]
B
Yeah.
- [92:15]
A
I mean, also, like, what's the. What the gonna happen with Outsiders? What if. What if the character who dies in Outsiders gets nominated? Yeah.
- [92:23]
B
No spoilers, of course, for a timeless American classic that we all have seen, read and, you know, everything. But now, any. Any thoughts to maybe Roger Bart for Back to the Future or perhaps any of the comedian Harmonists?
- [92:41]
A
Sure.
- [92:43]
B
I'm just letting us consider all possibilities.
- [92:45]
A
No, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. There's a world in which any of them could be nominated because they are on Broadway and eligible.
- [92:52]
B
Right.
- [92:52]
A
I mean, if you're asking who I would put in, I would absolutely not put in Roger or Hugh Coles, who plays George. George McFly in back to the Future. I know he won the Olivier for that, but. Or was nominated. Nominated one, I can't remember which.
- [93:08]
B
I think Back to the Future also won.
- [93:10]
A
They won Best Musical at the Oliviers. That is true. The Oliviers are the Oliviers.
- [93:17]
B
Horse of a different color, as we say in the wizard of Oz.
- [93:19]
A
Exactly. Different. First of all, different lineup, different sensibilities. You know, we haven't had a British transfer win best musical since Billy Elliot. And that also, even if it's an American team, Billy Elliot winning left a bit of a bad taste in people's mouths and it led to Matilda not winning. It's led to a couple of British transfers coming over and not doing as well as they probably should have.
- [93:47]
B
Interesting. Yeah. As a young, you know, 14, 15 year old that season of Billy Elliot, I was a next to normal Stan. So that was definitely my big show that season.
- [93:58]
A
I think that was a. That was a case where it was one of the last cases where the juggernaut won instead of the like, small American musical. And again, like the community, no one was openly violent about it, but there was a lot of talk of like, huh. So we have this original musical, off Broadway transfer, all American team that got critically raved about, it's selling well, it's a gamble and we're gonna give it to the big budget British transfer. Huh. And so I think that has always just sort of stuck in voters minds since then, because anytime we do give it to a juggernaut, it is an American juggernaut. And the juggernaut also kind of has to be critically praised, like for, you know, Hamilton and Mormon were praised. And in fact, I think people like to think of once as a British transfer because it has a mostly English team, but it's not that show was developed here.
- [94:55]
B
Yeah, that's one of my all time favorites. It's the poster here.
- [94:58]
A
I see it right there. But like, people think of once as a transfer and it's not. It was an Off Broadway transfer and then. And then went to the uk. So that. That was the Tonys being able to have their cake and eat it too.
- [95:10]
B
Absolutely. Well, this category then feels a little bit more cut and dry than I was expecting.
- [95:15]
A
Yeah. I think with the Harmonist, what's going to be difficult is there are so many of them and there are really. There are two that really have, like the tracks that people will remember. One is Danny Kornfeld and one is Kornfeld or Kornfield.
- [95:29]
B
I think it's Kornfeld.
- [95:30]
A
Kornfeld. I think. Yeah. Danny Kornfeld and guest of your pod, Blake Roman. I think those are the two Harmonists that if people are going to try to remember, they're going to like push them. But I. Yeah, I know. I think that there's. There's simply too much of other folks around.
- [95:46]
B
But we haven't talked about the. I don't know what they're calling them. Beginning, middle and end. Allie and Noah in the Notebook, but there's John Cardoza and the young woman who's playing the younger Ally. Do you think that they could possibly get in?
- [96:00]
A
That's harder for me to figure out because I haven't seen the show.
- [96:03]
B
Yeah, Fun Home, everyone got in.
- [96:06]
A
So listen, Fun Home is the best musical of the 21st century.
- [96:10]
B
But you don't got to tell me. I took a whole song and use it as a segment on my podcast.
- [96:15]
A
But the. It could. Listen, it could happen. I haven't. Again, I need to see the show and decide because with Fun Home, all three Allison's had their moments. Adult Allison, she has telephone wire and like the end of the show is really her moment. But she also, like, that was a role where it's more of a. It feels more like a featured actor in a musical Tony. Because, like, what she did was really be more of a vibe and the connective tissue. But like medium Allison gets change of my major. Small Allison gets ring of keys.
- [96:48]
B
Yeah.
- [96:48]
A
So they all have a moment that you can pinpoint is like, there's your nomination and if that happens for all three versions of Ali and Noah, by all means get him in there. I think because there's just so many. There are so many possibilities for other nominations. It could work out that, like only one of each or whatever. You know, from what I understand Joy and Ryan both get really big moments.
- [97:18]
B
Right.
- [97:18]
A
So I think they are definitely in the conversation. For sure.
- [97:22]
B
Yeah.
- [97:24]
A
Yeah.
- [97:24]
B
All right, well, I like our list.
- [97:26]
A
So our list is. It's Daniel, it's Paul, it's Steven. Who else?
- [97:30]
B
We have Ryan.
- [97:32]
A
Right, sure.
- [97:34]
B
And then the possibilities of Conrad or Paul.
- [97:37]
A
I thought we said Paul already.
- [97:40]
B
You did.
- [97:41]
A
So Daniel, Stephen, Paul, possibility or. Sorry, Daniel, Steven. Possibilities of Paul and Ryan. And then we need a fifth one. Who the fuck is Connor? Take. I have him on. On my eligibility list. And I don't remember who he played.
- [98:00]
B
Who he played. He was the lead in how to. Or he was supporting in how to Dance in Ohio.
- [98:07]
A
Who did he play? It was he Tommy and How to Dance in Ohio.
- [98:12]
B
I mean, he. He was really cute. I think he was getting his license.
- [98:16]
A
Yeah.
- [98:16]
B
His whole storyline.
- [98:17]
A
Yeah, that's Tommy and Liam Pierce. I'm assuming he's gonna be petitioned for lead.
- [98:23]
B
Yeah, I would say.
- [98:25]
A
Okay.
- [98:26]
B
If any performance in that show I had eyes on, and I would say it would probably be him.
- [98:30]
A
No, he was definitely my favorite of all the performers in that show. And I guess you could argue he's a co. Lead with Caesar, but I think they should. I think they should petition him for featured. He. I don't think he'll get in either category, but he has a better shot at featured.
- [98:47]
B
Totally.
- [98:49]
A
Yeah. I do think how to Dance in Ohio ultimately will be. It will not be acknowledged on. On that day. There's Brandon. I don't know if I.
- [99:01]
B
If I. Jose. Lana, you preferred Conrad.
- [99:07]
A
Yeah, I think if I'm gonna do a Heroize Love, I'm gonna make it Conrad. I'll put Conrad in as my fifth. I don't have him as a real prediction. It's just a manifestation. I'm really. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm secreting it. Oh, yeah.
- [99:24]
B
Not the secret.
- [99:25]
A
I love this.
- [99:26]
B
I'm gonna. I'm gonna align with you on these, if only because I don't. You know what? Actually, I'm going to be loyal to my beloved friend of the pod, Blake Roman, and say he might get in for harmony.
- [99:35]
A
Just listen. Things have happened. It could happen.
- [99:38]
B
When I went down into the basement of the Barrymore at intermission and they had a little cutout of all the Harmonists, and there was, like, a worker in the theater taking photos for people. He was like, where do you want to stand? And I said, oh, in front of him. He's my favorite. And he was like, you'd be surprised. Everyone says that.
- [99:55]
A
Well, he's very cute, and he plays the, like, tortured artist man, and everyone loves that because we feel like we can fix them.
- [100:02]
B
Always.
- [100:03]
A
Always. And do we ever? No. All right. Featured actress in a musical. We've got Ms. Lindsay Mendes. We've got Bebe Neuorth for Cabaret. I'm gonna also say Keisha Lewis for Hell's Kitchen. I'm gonna also say, again, not even having seen the show, Joy woods in the Notebook. And also not having seen the show, I'm gonna say Jen Colella for sus.
- [100:26]
B
Okay, Now, Nikki M. James was the Suffs Lucille Lortel nominee for our role.
- [100:31]
A
Okay, you know what? Then I changed my mind.
- [100:34]
B
Nikki M. James, she's previous winner. I. I like your list a lot. The word on the street about Spamalot, though, is that Leslie Rodriguez Kritzer really is phenomenal as lady of the Lake.
- [100:49]
A
She's good. She is good. I thought she was good. She was fine.
- [100:52]
B
It's very hard. I mean, the Sara Ramirez performance, I think, is so legendary.
- [100:58]
A
It is.
- [100:58]
B
And then Hannah Waddingham after that. You know, it's. People. Remember, I saw Merle Dandridge do it on tour, and that was, like, incredible to me. So it's tough.
- [101:08]
A
The lady of the Lake is a fascinating part because in a way, you can really walk away with the show just because you get the big standalone musical moments. Watching Leslie do it, I was. I was reminded that those songs aren't terribly good.
- [101:27]
B
They keep the Britney Spears line in Whatever happened to my part.
- [101:30]
A
No, they did. I think it's Leah Michelle now.
- [101:34]
B
Okay.
- [101:35]
A
Yeah, I. It's. It doesn't make sense. It's. They. They've updated a lot of jokes, some of which are very funny, some which are not. But what. What Sarah did. And I. Listen, y'. All. I saw Sarah. Okay? I'm. I'm. I'm.
- [101:49]
B
I'm.
- [101:50]
A
I'm gonna think I'm wearing them. I saw them in person. But Sarah. Sarah did two things. First of all, Sarah. Sarah's voice at the time was just, like, gobbled you up. And. And they just pummeled through that music in a way that it made you think Diva's lament was actually a showstopper. They made you think that Find your grail actually was a Mariah Carey all over the place. And the truth is, like, those songs are just sort of fine. And Leslie is an amazing singer, but her voice is not the, like, deep, rich sound that Sarah's is like, Leslie. There were moments where Leslie would hit a note, and because she actually can Go higher than that. It didn't have the weight.
- [102:38]
B
Ah.
- [102:39]
A
So she, like, there's a couple times when she actually would option up because as written, it wasn't as impressive with her.
- [102:46]
B
And I love Leslie's voice.
- [102:48]
A
Leslie's got a great voice and she's a very funny individual. I don't. I didn't love her interpretation of the role only because I miss. I miss comedy in earnest. And with Sarah, the way Sarah played Lady of the Lake. And I think this is probably just how they were in life was, you know, Juilliard grad, Yale grad. The fuck am I doing in this show? I'm above all of this. And so there was an anger to her performance or to their performance. And Leslie was more sort of one of the guys of, like, mugging and blah, blah, blah. And it made that role stand out less to me.
- [103:27]
B
Okay.
- [103:28]
A
And she. I mean, listen, she could absolutely get nominated. I'm not saying she won't, but I think we've seen her not get nominated for other roles that she's a better fit for. And it would totally be in line of the Tonys to finally nominate her for something. I'm like, this one doesn't fit her quite as well as Beetlejuice. And of course, this is the one you acknowledge her for, but. Or a catered affair, perhaps, or even fucking Legally Blonde. Oh, yeah, Paul at. She's. She's a very, very intelligent comedic actress. And I think that's why I was maybe a little underwhelmed with her and Spam a lot, because I was like, oh, she should be eating, and she's more kind of nibbling.
- [104:10]
B
Interesting. You know, I hate to interrupt this, but we didn't mention any of the male featured performances in Spamalot. And yeah, I know that a lot of people love Ethan Slater.
- [104:20]
A
He is very good at.
- [104:21]
B
A lot of buzz on him right now. You know he's dating Ariana Grande.
- [104:24]
A
Yes, yes, Mr. Grande. Now. He. He is very good. Spamalot. It doesn't feel as. As a, As a solid group of performers as the original did. Everyone's kind of doing their own thing.
- [104:40]
B
Okay.
- [104:41]
A
So I, I think my. Of the men, my favorite was probably Christopher Fitzgerald.
- [104:48]
B
Oh, and that. That was the Michael McCormack role, right?
- [104:51]
A
Yeah. Who and Michael McGrath role. Yeah, McGrath. And no, that was nominated in the past. And so Chris could absolutely get nominated. Taryn. I saw Taryn, not Alex. And Taryn is the one who's Tony eligible. And I thought Taryn was also very good. It won't Happen.
- [105:08]
B
Right.
- [105:09]
A
I thought Michael was a little at sea. I thought he was really delightful and Once Upon a Mattress. So I was. I was happy to see that so soon after Spamalott. Ethan was good. I think that role is not that. Sorry. That track is not as large as I remembered it being, because I remember seeing Christian Borrell do it, and I was like, oh, okay, okay. Funny. But, yeah, that might just be a case where there's just so many of them. And I think where Leslie can really petition herself is by being truly the only real woman of that group. Immediately, she just stands out already and then has the more impressive music. And, yeah, I think if any of those men get nominated, it would be either Christopher or Ethan. I would put a slight edge to Christopher. He's got three to his name already, right? Yeah. This is sort of what he does.
- [106:05]
B
All in that category too, right?
- [106:06]
A
Oh, yeah, this is. This is. This is what he do. He comes in and featured, mops up the floor with comedy in his scene, and then collects a Tony nomination and he's like, yeah, sure, whatever. It's fine.
- [106:18]
B
Okay, so back to featured actress in a musical. So we had. Did. We talked about Bebe Neuwirth. That's again, winning.
- [106:26]
A
Yeah, I name checked her, and I see it happening because again, that is a role that always gets nominated. It has won in the past. And the, you know, as you said, all four performers in the London version. All wonderful. Maybe you can speak to this. I had a few people who said, like, this production really focuses on Schneider and Schultz.
- [106:46]
B
Yes. They become like, this B romance storyline that's, like, very, very prominent in the show. Yeah, it's lovely.
- [106:54]
A
I mean, I think that really helps the two of them with their Tony chances. And I think if we're spreading the love here, I do think featured actor and actresses are categories where Cavare could totally just fucking cleanup. And, you know, it's Bibi's return. She's doing Kander and Ev again. It would be her third nomination. Third win. But we're not even talking about wins. We're literally just talking about nomination.
- [107:15]
B
Exactly, exactly. We'll save that for whoever's later in this.
- [107:17]
A
Lindsay. I would say Lindsay. BB I'm gonna say Keisha.
- [107:21]
B
Right. Enjoy.
- [107:22]
A
Yeah. Joy. I also said. And then I. I said Nikki. And then you said, don't forget Leslie. So I think that's. Those are six. There's also possibility Amber Amon. Yeah. Amber Aman or Beth Leavel. I don't know what's going. I don't know. What the fuck's going on with Olympic in terms of those roles? I don't know who.
- [107:37]
B
Yeah, who do?
- [107:38]
A
Who? Who do what?
- [107:39]
B
I know they had Amber Singh at their South Beat Sothbees. How do you say that? They're so safies, so bees. They had, like, a cast announcement premiere event for VIPs for Limpicka, and that had Amber performing at it.
- [107:53]
A
I wasn't invited because I am only an important person. Not a very important person. Yeah, no, I mean, I think with featured actress in a musical, it's, you know, eight women all kind of circling and there's going to be two or three that just don't make the cut.
- [108:10]
B
But I would be remiss, not to mention something my brother and I had discussed months ago was the possibility of Jennifer Simard for Once upon a One more time in a very memorable moment as the stepmother.
- [108:22]
A
I think you both need to prepare yourself now. Her disappointment.
- [108:28]
B
Listen, she's. She's been nominated twice.
- [108:31]
A
You know how I feel about Simard. I think she's incredible. She's a talent alien. We should be writing everything for her. And she was, in my opinion, the best thing about that show. I think that performance happened so long ago. By the time. By the time the nominations happen, she will be in Chicago doing Death Becomes Her Already. Right. And I don't think that's gonna add to her case for this. It's gonna just wipe away the memory of that.
- [108:53]
B
True. Okay. Okay. I got to see her do Dolly regionally here in Ohio in November. Oh, my goodness. It was beyond.
- [108:59]
A
That's amazing. I. I just imagine she did everything up the octave.
- [109:03]
B
She basically did.
- [109:04]
A
I'll.
- [109:04]
B
I'll send you the.
- [109:06]
A
Please do. Listen, anything can happen. I think if we're gonna go with a featured actress closed performance, the one that I would more put money on, and I don't even predict this I'd spend more money on it. Is Banco in harmony? Oh, yes. Just, you know, it's a way to recognize her. She was heavily recognized last year in any way she could be for Funny Girl. And this is a possibility to actually nominate her again. I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't even know if I personally would nominate her myself, but it. That is a thing that people could think about, you know, I love that.
- [109:42]
B
I love that you just suggested that.
- [109:44]
A
Yeah, you're welcome. She's also playing the only character in the show that dies in the Holocaust. Granted, her character is imaginary, but, you know, that's. That's a thing we talk about with libretto, not actress.
- [109:54]
B
Sure, sure.
- [109:55]
A
Okay. So we were pretty locked in on at least four, I think.
- [110:00]
B
So.
- [110:00]
A
Fantastic. Let's. Hey, we've been going on for a while, so let's barrel through. Director of. Actually, no, we haven't done any plays for a while.
- [110:08]
B
I know.
- [110:09]
A
Lead actress in a play. I have at. Number one, Sarah Paulson. Appropriate. Number two, Amy Ryan. Doubt.
- [110:18]
B
Yes.
- [110:19]
A
Number three, Jessica Lange. Mother play.
- [110:22]
B
Yes.
- [110:22]
A
Number four, Betsy. Item. Prayer for the French Republic.
- [110:26]
B
Okay.
- [110:26]
A
Number five, Rachel McAdams. Mary Jane.
- [110:29]
B
We are exactly the same, except Laura Bell Bundy for the Cottage is in my mind after mentioning it earlier. And I have not seen Prayer for the French Republic, but I probably. I think you're probably correct. And I think that Betsy had gotten some sort of a nomination for either Outer Critics or Drama Desk or Drama League last year.
- [110:47]
A
I think Betsy, I think, has actually won something for that. But also that it was. It was two years ago at this point that that. That happened.
- [110:55]
B
Yeah, I think.
- [110:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't quote me on that. But I'm pretty sure that. That. That she won something then. Listen, Laura Bell, she loves to come in out of the blue and get that slot that we thought was gonna go to somebody else. Chenoweth is, I'm sure, is still bitter about that lack of apple tree nomination. Listen, I. I think Deborah Monk stole that from her for Curtains, not Laura Bell. Laura Bell has a rightful Tony nomination for Legally Blonde.
- [111:20]
B
Yes.
- [111:21]
A
So, yeah, she could. Listen, watch it happen. And I fully expect that text from you. Huh? With the. With the. The nail painting emoji.
- [111:30]
B
That's. That's all it's gonna be.
- [111:31]
A
That's all it's gonna be. I don't know exactly what you mean. Actor in a play.
- [111:36]
B
I'm gonna go with Leslie Odom Jr. For Pearly. Jeremy Strong, enemy of the People. Michael Stuhlbarg for Patriots.
- [111:45]
A
Yep.
- [111:47]
B
Steve Carell. Uncle Vanya.
- [111:50]
A
Yeah.
- [111:50]
B
And probably Liam Schreiber for Doubt.
- [111:53]
A
That is my five.
- [111:55]
B
There's also Will Keane for Patriots, who won the Olivier, as we've discussed. Who knows what that could be? But I think that's a pretty solid. This category tends to be a lot of celebs.
- [112:06]
A
It is. And it helps that we have so many celebs. Like, we're cutting out Danny DeVito and Eric McCormick. Like, they're. There are true. It's a. It's a good lineup and without them even having to, like, sacrifice quality, you know?
- [112:20]
B
Sure. Absolutely.
- [112:21]
A
I don't. Do we know what the story is with Stereophonic. If that's, like, ensemble. If there's anyone who's really a lead.
- [112:28]
B
I think it's more of an ensemble deal. Is Will. Isn't Will Brill in that?
- [112:32]
A
Is he? I don't know. I. When they announced that they were doing 40 tickets in the Meds for previews, I just jumped on it, and I didn't even pay attention to anything else.
- [112:43]
B
Okay. So I feel like it's. It's. Who Will Win is a different story. But I think that this is a pretty solid list.
- [112:48]
A
Yeah. I. Again. And we're. We. I am putting a lot of faith into Uncle Vanya right now. All I know is that that cast is getting me pregnant. It's a created scene. That's incredible. And from what I hear, Heidi Schreck's adaptation is really lovely. So I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful, but anything can happen.
- [113:06]
B
And you and I worship at the altar of Ms. Anika Noni Rose. So this is exciting.
- [113:11]
A
Sure. Do faith be on that note, featured actress in a Play. I've got Ms. Carrie Young for Pearly Victorious.
- [113:19]
B
Yes.
- [113:21]
A
I've got On. Who else do I have? I have Natalie Gold for Appropriate.
- [113:28]
B
Okay.
- [113:29]
A
Which I didn't originally have until I saw Appropriate. And I thought, oh, she's. She's good in there.
- [113:36]
B
Over Elle Fanning. Would that also be a featured role or.
- [113:38]
A
It is. That is a featured role. I don't think Elle's gonna get in there. I think it there. So they're transferring to the Belasco, so they'll be running by Tony time, which is great. There's a rumor that Elle will not be a part of the cast. I think she's filming something.
- [113:50]
B
I saw that as well. Yeah.
- [113:52]
A
So that'll hurt her. She's also. Her role is. She does her assignment very, very well, but the role is not quite as meaty as what Natalie Gold has. Basically, Elle Fanning doesn't get a chance to shout is basically what I'm saying. Everyone else gets a chance to yell at each other.
- [114:08]
B
And it's a kitchen table play. Right. Like, everyone's kind of in the house.
- [114:11]
A
Yeah. It's all in the living room of this. Of this house. Yeah. I would love a gal from Jaja's African hair braiding to get in there. It won't happen, and it devastates me. But what are you going to do?
- [114:23]
B
What about Quincy? Tyler Bernstein for Doubt.
- [114:27]
A
Yeah. Well, so again, I need to. I need to see the fucker. But she does have, in my opinion, like, the princess track of the year. And this is a year of some princess tracks. But that role is, you know, doesn't come on for almost an hour. Has an 8 minute scene total where she just, you know, it's a great scene. Won Adrian Lennox the Tony, got Viola Davis nominated. Kind of single handedly launched Viola Davis to movie stardom.
- [114:55]
B
Absolutely.
- [114:56]
A
So it's abs. It's. I think it's absolutely a possibility. There's also Francis Ben amu. I don't know how you say her. Right from prayer. Yeah. She is very good in a role that I'm pretty sure is me. Incredibly divisive for voters because that character is very acerbic and Elodie, right? Yeah, Elodie, Yeah. And she has a monologue in the second act that the humor of it is how long it goes on that she just keeps talking and talking. But I think there are a lot of people are gonna be like, Jesus Christ, cut this thing down to two minutes.
- [115:32]
B
I heard it was long.
- [115:34]
A
It is very, very long. She does it very well. And the point is how long. The point of the monologue is just how long it is. Okay, but that's again, that's a writer problem, not a her problem. She has a third act that doesn't redeem the character so much as it shows another side to her that allows you to enjoy her more. So it could happen. And I believe she was Drama desk nominated, if not one. There's also Ms. Rose, Ms. Pill and Ms. Howdy Shell for Uncle Vanya. There's Ms. Bolger for Mother Play.
- [116:03]
B
Playing a child. Right?
- [116:05]
A
Doesn't she always? Yeah. When is Celia Keenan Bolger gonna play a 45 year old woman with kids, a mortgage and a cigarette? I want it, I need it now.
- [116:16]
B
You know, she kind of has an adult. I mean she does have an adult role in Gilded Age. She has a love story and that.
- [116:21]
A
So is anyone an actual adult on the Gilded Age? Dylan McDowell. Is anyone a full grown grown up on that show? No, not with the.
- [116:29]
B
Not with the Opera House drama. God, I'm thinking all of a sudden about the impact of like how this category can really go to someone who's in one scene or you know, like Lois Smith or something like that, you know.
- [116:42]
A
Absolutely.
- [116:42]
B
Inheritance. I loved Miriam Silverman, by the way, who won this last year and signed in Sydney Bruste's Window.
- [116:48]
A
She was one of my nominees for best Call Me Daddy performances of the year. And it, yeah, her, she had. First of all, that role is the best role in that show. But also, you know, she had that monologue where she just read them all for filth and walked off stage. And I was like, yeah, she just won the Tony. There you go.
- [117:06]
B
So maybe it's a monologue type thing that wins you this role or this award.
- [117:11]
A
Yeah. I would love it if Kara got nominated. I think she will, because she. But she doesn't have, like, that moment that is about her.
- [117:22]
B
Okay.
- [117:23]
A
She had. She has a scene that is hysterical. Or she had a scene. The show's closed now, but she had a scene that was very, very funny. Or, you know, she's in an outfit that she can't really move in and she doesn't really know what she's doing. And very, very good. But I think that because the show has closed and there are other performances coming up that, as you said, have that, like, this is my moment. She'll get. I think she'll get nominated but not win. Featured actor in a play. Maybe. I. Well, we don't know what's going on with him. Is he going to be lead? He's gonna be featured. Who knows? Yeah, I think we've got someone probably from Patriots. Probably someone from. Probably someone from Stereophonic. Maybe Alfred Molina, Frankel, Vanya. I don't know. Sight Unseen. Yeah.
- [118:09]
B
Michael Imperioli. Enemy of the People.
- [118:11]
A
Absolutely. And then, you know, maybe Corey Stole for Appropriate. Maybe Jo Sanders for Probably Victorious. I think this is a category.
- [118:19]
B
Plunkett's Husband.
- [118:21]
A
Yeah. I think this is a category where there could be a play that gets, like two or three nominations and then, like, one surprise.
- [118:30]
B
Yeah. And I feel comfortable with that. This is. It's sort of the boring category to me, year to year. The featured actor in a play.
- [118:39]
A
Yeah. Sometimes it's interesting. I think last year was a really fascinating one. Not fascinating, but it was. That was an exciting one because it was Brandon winning. And yes, there were good. There were good people there the year before, which was Jesse Tyler Ferguson. That was kind of a boring one. You know it. So there's usually one really exciting performance and then a couple of fillers or not fillers, but like, you know, quality performances that you're like, your nomination is your win because we know it's going to this guy.
- [119:07]
B
Sure. Yeah, we'll say then.
- [119:10]
A
We'll see. We'll see. All right, directors, we're gonna barrel the rest of these guys out. Director of a musical. I'm putting in Marilee. I'm putting in Cabaret. I'm putting in Notebook. I'm putting in. I'm gonna. I know. I'm say Water for Elephants. Because just based off of what I've seen, Jessica Stone is doing a lot of very inventive work.
- [119:33]
B
Yeah.
- [119:33]
A
And that people really enjoy that. And then, I don't know, maybe I go on a limb and I say, alex Timbers, here lies love just for the sheer size of what he did.
- [119:42]
B
I agree. It's definitely a female heavy category, which I absolutely love.
- [119:46]
A
Yeah.
- [119:47]
B
Maybe Rachel Chavkin for Lempicka.
- [119:49]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. She won for Hadestown. She had to not get nominated.
- [119:53]
B
Did she win for Hadestown?
- [119:54]
A
She did.
- [119:55]
B
Okay. Otherwise, I agree with everything you're saying. So that would be Michael Greif and Shelley Williams, both for Notebook, right?
- [120:03]
A
Yes.
- [120:03]
B
Okay.
- [120:03]
A
And for musical, it's important to remember two things. One is that there's only been one Best Musical winner to not get a Tony nomination for Best Director. You don't have to win Director, but you usually have to get nominated. And Titanic is the only musical to not get nominated for Director and still win.
- [120:18]
B
Okay.
- [120:19]
A
And if you are a musical and you are eligible for Best Book, you absolutely have to be nominated for Best Book if you're gonna win.
- [120:28]
B
Oh, okay.
- [120:30]
A
Because it. There are. There are years where people like to believe it's one versus the other. One of my proudest moments was when the nominations for 2022 came out and everyone thought it was six versus Strange Loop and six did not get a book nomination. And I said, they are not winning Best Musical.
- [120:51]
B
You knew the writing was on the wall.
- [120:53]
A
The writing was on the wall. I think what it ended up coming down to is Strange Loop versus mj and that I think voters were close to voting for mj and enough of them were just like, I just don't think I can get. Give it to another jukebox. Not two years in a row. Not on this day.
- [121:08]
B
Oh, God. That was the scariest, like, 11th hour of a Tony's broadcast ever. When I thought MJ was going to.
- [121:13]
A
Win Best Musical, I was in the room that.
- [121:16]
B
Oh, yes, you were.
- [121:17]
A
I was at that Tony. Yeah, it was. It was a. It was a weird vibe. It was a weird vibe that whole night.
- [121:23]
B
It was a strange night for sure. A strange loop and a strange night.
- [121:27]
A
Yeah. So Michael R. Jackson got a faster standing ovation than Patti LuPone did when he won, which was like, the room so clearly wanted Strange Loop to sweep. And when that wasn't happening, like, other wins would happen. Like, I remember Six's win was really popular for score, but a lot of other times people like. Like, they were excited, but they were like, I. What does this mean? And as you said, like by when, when it came down to the wire, everyone's like, oh, God, is it going to be mj? And then when it was Strange Loop, everyone was just so relieved.
- [121:59]
B
And who won director that night?
- [122:00]
A
Marianne Elliott won for Company, which was expected.
- [122:03]
B
Yeah, of course. And I think not to be in the predictions game. I think it's Rebecca Frecknell or Maria Friedman for Marilyn Lee.
- [122:09]
A
Yeah, that's, that's absolutely what's happening. Usually it goes to the musical or revival winner. So I will say who if between those two women, whoever ends up winning director, that's what's going to win revival. Just saying it.
- [122:23]
B
And Friedman, you know, fixing, you know, we're still in the Sondheim afterglow. You know, it's, it's, it's. She's fixed the problematic show.
- [122:32]
A
So she didn't fix it. I, I need, I, I. Dylan is saying what everyone is saying.
- [122:38]
B
Yes.
- [122:38]
A
And the. I need anyone who's going to go see Merrily needs to know this now. Maria Friedman did not fix Merrily We Roll along because Mary Lee We Roll along will never actually work. What it, what she has done is she's made it work probably better than most people have made it work. But I, my hot take is, I think that we all have just gotten so used to Merrily that all the flaws of the show we kind of just like turn a blind eye to, which is in all way, it's in its own way. It's a wonderful metaphor for the relationship of Mary, Charlie and Frank. They are.
- [123:13]
B
Wow.
- [123:14]
A
They've gotten so used to all of his flaws that it takes years for them to finally separate from him because they've just turned a blind eye to all of his toxic traits for so long. This is all in my review. Don't you worry.
- [123:28]
B
Full body chills right now. And maybe that was the Merrily We Rolled along the whole time.
- [123:34]
A
Wow, Matt. Merrily you Roll along has been dead for 35 years. All right, so we have Maria, we've got Rebecca. We said Michael and Shelley for Notebook. I said Jessica for Water for Elephants. Don't know how much I agree with that. And then I did the wild card of Alex Timbers. You mentioned Rachel Chapkin. I think both are absolute possibilities. I honestly feel good about that.
- [123:59]
B
The only other person I might suggest is Lee Silverman for subs.
- [124:03]
A
Yeah, or Des Mackinac for Tommy.
- [124:06]
B
But can he get nominated again?
- [124:08]
A
It's apparently, you know, a new production, but we'll see. We'll See, because, I mean, James Lapine got nominated for into the woods both times.
- [124:16]
B
Okay.
- [124:17]
A
I think he was eligible both times for Falsettos, two totally new productions. But some people might think that it's a little. I haven't seen this production yet. There might be people who feel like it's too much of a copy paste job. Who knows? Who knows? It could happen. It could absolutely happen. So we're, we're. We're saying no to some of these other possible directors.
- [124:39]
B
I mean, Griff, I think you're right. You're inkling that he would only get one out of the three that he's, you know, working on. And then, you know who's directing Gatsby? Mark Bruni.
- [124:52]
A
So, yeah, Beautiful. Yeah, so he did Beautiful.
- [124:55]
B
Never nominated for any of his work. He's done a lot, but yeah, I.
- [124:59]
A
Did he do Cinderella too?
- [125:02]
B
The most recent one? No.
- [125:04]
A
Okay. I thought he did. Or maybe that was Mark Brokaw. Yeah, did Beautiful. Well, Beautiful is his only other Broadway credit. Everything else he was an associate on.
- [125:14]
B
Yeah.
- [125:15]
A
So I think. Well, we'll see. I feel like I'm being too mean to Gatsby for a show that I haven't seen yet. It's just nothing about how they've been promoting it. The quick turnaround from Paper Mill to now when I, you know, everyone has said that it needed a lot of work after Paper Mill just makes me feel like they're not. They're kind of just taking the chance that people are gonna love it and, and go from there. But we'll see. We'll see. Maybe I'll eat my words.
- [125:44]
B
Something else I didn't realize. Danya, or Danya Taymor, who's directing the Outsiders, is Julie Taymor's niece.
- [125:50]
A
Wow. Nepotism.
- [125:52]
B
Nepotism.
- [125:53]
A
No, she's apparently very well respected director in Chicago. I've never actually seen any of her work.
- [125:57]
B
Work. She directed Passover, I guess.
- [126:01]
A
She did. She did. I didn't see Passover though.
- [126:03]
B
Okay.
- [126:04]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [126:05]
B
But I. I did oddly see that one. Yeah.
- [126:07]
A
What'd you think?
- [126:08]
B
I thought it was really interesting.
- [126:10]
A
What did you think of her direction?
- [126:13]
B
It was. It was actually really focused.
- [126:15]
A
Good, good. Yeah, I've. I've heard very good things about her as an artist, so I'm interested to see what she does with the Outsiders. I've heard. I have heard very divided things about that show. So we'll. We'll see what they end up doing. Director of a play. Give me, give me Dale. Just. Just say names. Just say Names.
- [126:38]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [126:39]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [126:39]
B
And I have my little list written down here. David Cromer, who has. Who could, you know very well, win prayer for the French Republic. And then I have Lila Newberger from Uncle Banya.
- [126:47]
A
Love that. I also have. Didn't. I think Lila also did appropriate? Yes. Am I making that up?
- [126:54]
B
It's very possible. She did Waverly Gallery, right?
- [126:57]
A
She did. She did do it. Waverly Gallery did a lovely job with that one. Elaine May in that play just wrecked me.
- [127:02]
B
I know.
- [127:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. Lila Newberg. How do you say her last name?
- [127:05]
B
Nougaber, maybe. You probably said it right over Lila.
- [127:09]
A
Nigger. I don't know.
- [127:11]
B
Something like that. Yeah.
- [127:12]
A
I don't know. Yeah, so she did appropriate too. I think she'll get nominated for that. She might get double nominated. It can happen.
- [127:18]
B
Maybe Rupert Gould for Patriots.
- [127:20]
A
Yeah. And then I think we could see who is Stereophonic. Stereophonic is Daniel Ocan. I think he could get in and I think we could see.
- [127:40]
B
What about Tina Landau from other plays?
- [127:44]
A
Yeah, I think that could absolutely happen. There's. There are so many things that are coming and directors who we all like.
- [127:52]
B
Right. It's like we know all these names, you know.
- [127:55]
A
Exactly. And we've seen. We've enjoyed their work in the past. I'm. Yeah, I think I'm gonna go on a limb and say Daniel Akin for Stereophonic. I'm going to say Lila for. I'm actually gonna see Lila for appropriate.
- [128:09]
B
Okay.
- [128:09]
A
I'm gonna say Tina Landa for Mother Play. That's three. I'm gonna say who's doing Enemy of the People?
- [128:20]
B
I think Sam Gold.
- [128:22]
A
Oh, okay. I'm gonna say Rupert Gould for Patriots. Sam Gold. I has two ballers with me, which is Fun Home and Doll's House Part two. And then he has done a lot of really, really off putting stuff since then. So we'll see what happens with an Enemy of the People.
- [128:41]
B
Did he do that.
- [128:45]
A
King Lear with Glenda Jackson? He sure did. I walked out at intermission.
- [128:50]
B
I should have. I paid full price.
- [128:53]
A
Ah, that'll do it. That'll do it every time. I paid 30 bucks and I said, I will just. And I literally only went because I was trying to see all the Tony nominees that year. So I saw Ruth Wilson.
- [129:02]
B
Yes.
- [129:03]
A
And it's like I feel like I've seen enough of her performance to say that I saw it. Yeah. I don't think we're going to see Kenny get in for early. I don't think we're going to see Jar Jar in For directing, unfortunately, I'm going to. Yeah. I'll say Tina. I'll say Lila. I'll say Rupert. I'll say Daniel. And then.
- [129:27]
B
You said Daniel. Ocan for stereophonic.
- [129:30]
A
Yeah. And then I'm gonna. I'll say Lila again for Vanya. If Vanya ends up slapping hard. Why not.
- [129:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, get her too.
- [129:38]
A
Why not to. She's allowed.
- [129:39]
B
I think that's so cool.
- [129:42]
A
Why don't we have left choreography book and then we can sort. I'm. I want to do scenic design of a musical for a quick second. Just because I think there's a world in which we have like all these environmental shows getting nominated because you got Here Lies Love, which absolutely will get nominated. We've got Cabaret, which will get nominated. It has to Gatsby. From what I understand, that design is going to be incredible. I think Lempicka is going to be really impressive visually. And then the fifth slot, like, it could be Water for Elephants. It could be Back to the Future.
- [130:20]
B
I was gonna say. I feel like if Back to the Future got in anywhere. The car.
- [130:24]
A
Yeah, People talking about the car. I mean, my other thing is that, I mean, I would put Back to the Future in for sound and lighting probably, but. But people love that car. So, I mean, I. I think that Back to the future's best bets are in tech. And even then, like, there's a world in which it could get nudged out. And I mean, I just listed five shows that could absolutely nudge it out. There's also, I mean, the design of Tommy, because they're going to put the projections and the scenic design together for that one and. And make that eligible. And who knows what Heart of Rock and Roll is gonna look like. What if that. What if the set design for Heart of Rock and Roll is art? Dylan, what if it's fucking art?
- [130:59]
B
Listen, the James Earl Jones is a beautiful space. You never know what they'll do with it.
- [131:04]
A
That awning they have for now, not that awning, that proscenium for. It is beautiful.
- [131:09]
B
I know.
- [131:10]
A
Love it. Love to see it. It's gonna be Cabaret. Yeah. Is Cabaret's doing what Heroes Love did, but it'll still be running. And when you get something like that, you go, well done, you. Right, choreography again. This is a space where I think Harmony could possibly get in very old fashioned choreo. And Warren Carlisle tends to get nominated for his choreography.
- [131:35]
B
Right.
- [131:36]
A
There's also water for elephants. There's also Hell's Kitchen, which could get Camille Brown her Tony. I think there's too much choreography in that show. But there is enough. And that. That that category tends to be most, not best, if we're being honest here.
- [131:54]
B
Okay, that's fair.
- [131:55]
A
Yeah. I like. I'm trying to think maybe ain't too proud. Might be the last time they went with an award where, like, it was about how they use the choreo and not necessarily, like, how much of it was in. Sure. Yeah.
- [132:09]
B
What's ironic about that is, I guess, like, it wasn't even accurate choreography to what, the Temptations?
- [132:14]
A
No, probably not. But, you know, it was fun. It was tight, but I loved it.
- [132:20]
B
I thought that was such a great choreography.
- [132:24]
A
Yeah. Well, who was the choreographer for that?
- [132:27]
B
It was Sergio Trujillo.
- [132:28]
A
Yeah. I like him as a choreographer. I think he does a lot of really good work. And he did really similar work in Jersey Boys, which was also very high quality. Oh, Lauren, what's her face? Lateral.
- [132:39]
B
Yeah. Lataro.
- [132:40]
A
Maybe the taro for Tommy. Yeah, that could absolutely happen. I think we'll see what happens with, I guess, Heart of Rock and Roll. I'm sure Gatsby will get in just because, again, most choreo. What if I got a random note? Tase of Wine and Roses gets in for that drinking montage that Kelly and Brian do.
- [132:58]
B
I didn't realize there was one. I do think what you mentioned, though, about Once Upon a One More Time that they would. Could possibly get in. And then I think Cabaret has great choreography.
- [133:08]
A
Amazing. Yeah, I could see that happening. There's a world in which, you know, outsiders gets in there. Or Josh Rhodes for Spamalot. I don't think Josh's choreography for Spamalot is terribly great. And I think that the best stuff he does is stuff that comes from Nicholas. Yeah. But he got singled out a lot in reviews for his choreography, so, you know, that could be enough for nominators to go, we like him. We want to see more from him because. Has he been nominated in the past? I can't remember.
- [133:40]
B
I don't know. But I loved his Bright Star choreography. There was something that he did with the number Asheville that will live in my mind forever.
- [133:46]
A
Oh, yeah. He did do Bright Star. Oh, he did Cinderella. I thought he did a beautiful job with Cinderella. And he did Dear World at Encores, which actually, he did a really good job with Dear World. Dear World was the kind of encore show that I wish Encores did more of. Like, you're never going to see this show again. Just sit back and enjoy. Yeah.
- [134:04]
B
Not. Let's prep this for Broadway. Okay. I feel. I feel like this really could go anywhere.
- [134:11]
A
Yeah.
- [134:12]
B
But that's exciting. And it could give due. I mean, did you mention Here Lies Love?
- [134:15]
A
I didn't. But, I mean, that could happen too.
- [134:18]
B
I think sometimes people confuse choreography and direction. And like, I remember with Come From Away, a lot of it was, how much is Karissa Ashley directing, and how much is it actually choreographed a specific way because it was such a flowing piece throughout.
- [134:33]
A
But, yeah, I mean, direction. People always think of direction now as purely just the staging, and that is a heavy part of it. But also, like, I want to tell people when they're like, oh, that performance didn't do it for me, like. Yeah. Then you know, you can't vote for that show for direction then.
- [134:49]
B
Right.
- [134:49]
A
The director has to be in charge of all the tone and everyone in it. And if you don't like what they're doing, that falls on direction. And I think what made me happy with Christopher Ashley's win for that, for Come From Away was that that show could have failed at any moment, and it didn't, because everyone was a unit.
- [135:09]
B
Yes.
- [135:10]
A
And that was him. That was his work with them.
- [135:13]
B
It was a fabulous win.
- [135:14]
A
Yeah.
- [135:14]
B
Rachel Shaft also could have won that year, but she.
- [135:17]
A
That was a very good year because you had Chafkin doing a lot with. With Comet. You had Ashley doing, I think, really wonderful work with Come From Away. We had Matthew Warches for Groundhog Day. Right. Which I. I've gone to bat for that show many a time. And then you had Griff doing really delicate, nuanced work with Evan Hansen. And I think people didn't realize how important Greif's direction was to Evan Hansen until we saw the movie. And then we're like, oh, you really helped make that show land.
- [135:46]
B
Sure.
- [135:47]
A
Yeah.
- [135:47]
B
No, that's totally, totally accurate. Where are we going next?
- [135:54]
A
We talked about set. Let's just do book and then we can close it out on that and that really exciting note. Best book of a musical.
- [136:00]
B
Yeah. Well, I am excited about some of the nominees. We mentioned Craig Lucas earlier for Days of Wine and Roses. I definitely think it's a possibility. Adam Rapp is. Did the book for the Outsiders, and I love his writing.
- [136:14]
A
I like his writing a lot. And this would be his first Tony nomination if he does get nominated, wouldn't it?
- [136:19]
B
He did the sound inside. Right. Was that a nomination for him?
- [136:23]
A
Yeah. No, that was. So. I apologize. That was his first Tony nomination. He's also a Pulitzer nominee. No, I like Adam Rapp a lot. I really Loved the sound. Inside. Part of that, though, was also. The production was just so stunning. But that would be a nice nomination for him. There is the Notebook, which I. Yeah, I think that's absolutely happening.
- [136:46]
B
She wrote for this Is Us, but.
- [136:49]
A
We don't hold that against her now, do we?
- [136:51]
B
Listen, that. That show captivated America and really tugged on the heartstrings, and that's what the Notebook is meant to do. And from what Ryan told Connor and I on Drama, she hasn't taken any lines and kept them written the same. She put it through a. One of those proofreading things and everything is different, you know, nothing is. Is ripped from the Nicholas Sparks film.
- [137:12]
A
Thank God. Because Nicholas Sparks, man, I like that movie a lot. He troubles me as a writer and.
- [137:22]
B
I mean, his politics are absolutely not aligned with.
- [137:26]
A
Yeah, no. Oh, he doesn't like either one of us, Dylan. No. He would prefer it if both of us went away.
- [137:30]
B
He probably doesn't like that there's like, they've done like this colorblind casting in the Notebook either.
- [137:35]
A
Oh, no, not one bit. And there are some people who have made that a point in their reviews. They're like, the casting for this. What's that about? I'm like. I'm like, does it bother you that much? Can you be smarter? But some people are ass. Yeah, some people are just very dumb, Dylan.
- [137:49]
B
Have you noticed that sometimes.
- [137:51]
A
Sometimes, yeah, like today with me.
- [137:53]
B
No, I'm the one who's made some silly snafus today. But you're keeping the train moving.
- [137:59]
A
You are, you are. You've been. Yeah, you've been keeping me on. On theme. So that's good. I appreciate that. Of course, I'm. I'm definitely gonna put down money for Notebook. I think Outsiders definitely is a possibility. I'll say Water for elephants.
- [138:13]
B
Yeah.
- [138:14]
A
Yeah. So that's three. Honestly, this could also be a place where suff gets in. Lempicka. I think this also could be a possibility for Harmony, a book that I don't like, but because score is a little more jam packed than book, I think that Sussman could actually get in here and that could be sort of an acknowledgement of the show. And Days of Wine and Roses.
- [138:42]
B
I.
- [138:42]
A
Don'T like that libretto. I don't blame Craig Lucas for that, though. From what I hear about the production process of that show, collaboration kind of stopped early and did not. And that did not allow his book to get better because he wasn't really allowed to work on it anymore.
- [139:02]
B
It's like an Elton John Musical then.
- [139:04]
A
Kinda, kinda, kinda. We'll leave it at that. We'll leave it at that. But, you know, he. He did the best he could, considering he was very limited in what he could work on from Atlantic onwards.
- [139:15]
B
And the subject matter is. Is tricky, you know, alcoholism and addiction. And I could see it getting in for that too. Like, you know, we're having these great conversations and it's like a real human aspect.
- [139:30]
A
Yeah.
- [139:31]
B
Highlighted.
- [139:32]
A
I wonder if Days of Wine and Roses in Here Lies Love are gonna fall into similar traps of, like, we really liked it or we really appreciated it, but, you know, like, the score is really what we're remembering, not necessarily the book. And for Here Lies Love, I can understand that because it's mostly sung through and sung through musicals have a harder time getting respect for their books because people think of book purely as, you know, the dialogue and, like, it's also the structure and where the songs go and how it's told. But, yeah, I mean, what if, like, the wild card again is like, Heart of Rock and Roll, Baby comes on in and it's like, surprise. We're fucking delightful.
- [140:06]
B
You're letting that one stay alive. And that's kind of fun.
- [140:09]
A
You never know just because, like, the number of times I've had ache on my face of, yeah, who cares about her? And then it comes in and ends up being like, it actually. It happened earlier this season with Pearly Victorious. Nobody was excited for it. And then the very first preview onwards, we all were like, you know what's really fucking great, Probably Victorious.
- [140:27]
B
I remember seeing, like, you would just go on the ticket site and it was just all open seats, and then I actually had comps to it. And then they rescinded them because suddenly they realized they could.
- [140:36]
A
They could actually sell it. Yeah, well, I got comps, but that's because I'm an important person. So who. Who do you have for your five for book here?
- [140:47]
B
So I do have Craig Lucas. I have Becca Brunstetter for the Notebook. I have Rick Ellis for Water for Elephants. Adam Rap for the Outsiders.
- [140:56]
A
And.
- [140:58]
B
We'Ll go with Bruce Sussman for Harmony.
- [141:01]
A
Okay, I. I think that's a solid five. Watch the Tony Nominators put in Stereophonic. I mean, like. But that's a play. And you're like, yeah, well, you know, we decided, yeah, Stereophonic's gonna, like, break.
- [141:14]
B
All the rules, I think, this season.
- [141:15]
A
So absolutely. They're gonna get nominated for featured actress in a musical. Set design of a musical, and it's like, you're a play it's like. Well, we figured, why not, right? Put it in everywhere.
- [141:25]
B
So the categories that we haven't touched are like orchestrations, costume design, stuff like that. I don't really know. It's hard without seeing it, too, especially.
- [141:34]
A
Exactly. I will say orchestrations usually go hand in hand with score.
- [141:40]
B
Okay.
- [141:40]
A
With the occasional exception of something like a cabaret or a Merrily. That is a revival that does something really different with the sound.
- [141:49]
B
Is that where Sweeney won last year?
- [141:52]
A
No, because Sweeney did the original orchestration. Sweeney won sound design, which I'm still throwing my shoe about.
- [141:58]
B
I remember the photo that if you. With the shoe in hand. Right.
- [142:02]
A
Shoe and fucking hand. And I knew it was gonna happen. I knew it and I did. And I was still annoyed. Anyway, I'll say. I saw it again two weeks ago to see Mr. Joe Locke go on for Tobias. And we were in the mid mezzanine this time. And the sound was better. It didn't. The orchestra didn't sound like it was a mile away. It just sounded like it was behind a velvet wall. But still, I'm like, I need you to drown me in that music. Just wash it all over me. Which Merrily does. Merrily does make you feel like you're bathing in that. In that music. And I think the sound design for Days of Wine and Roses is really stellar. The orchestrations for that is also really good. I would probably say Days of Wine and Roses. Merrily Notebook. Maybe Cabaret. I don't know what they're doing.
- [142:51]
B
Yeah, I could see Cabaret. The band is all visible, obviously, and. Yeah, part of the action at times.
- [142:57]
A
And like. I don't know, there. There could be a world in which, like, Gatsby gets nominated just because it's, like, such a big sound. Even if they don't get nominated for score or.
- [143:06]
B
Yeah, we'll see how they fill the Broadway.
- [143:08]
A
Exactly. Or Water for Elephants or something like that. You know, it's rare when a reduced orchestra for a new score gets nominated. They'll go for a bigger sound or like a jukebox musical that does something different. So like a Hell's Kitchen or a Heart of Rock and Roll. But I don't. I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see.
- [143:29]
B
So exciting. This has been so much fun. Do we. Do we have anything left? Or are we.
- [143:33]
A
I mean, just a couple of other design stuff. We don't really have to get into it. I mean, I think we're gonna see. I think we're gonna see Water for Elephants. Come in there with a lot of design. I think we're gonna see her Lies Love come back with some design stuff. Cabaret, obviously, will have a lot of design in there. Gatsby will probably run down the board with costume, light and set for nominations. Plays are a little more interesting. We don't have as many heavily designed plays. We still have some more things to go. I think that Appropriate could end up being a surprise set design nomination because of what they do with the house at the end of the play.
- [144:10]
B
Oh, cool.
- [144:11]
A
Yeah. No spoilers, but it's fun. Also, really good lighting design.
- [144:15]
B
I gotta add that to my list for my next trip.
- [144:17]
A
Oh, you absolutely do. It's so good. It's really, really, really, really compelling. I think Prayer for the French Republic will probably get a set and lighting nomination. That could also possibly get a score nomination. I mean, it won't happen, but I'm just saying, like.
- [144:32]
B
Yeah, we're being bold here.
- [144:33]
A
Yeah, it's possible. They're. They. I think they will be eligible.
- [144:37]
B
What about the set for Shark is broken?
- [144:40]
A
What about the set for Shark is broken?
- [144:42]
B
Is. Is the Shark broken?
- [144:45]
A
A lot of things were broke with that show. I do not see that show getting nominated for. How do I say this delicately? Jack shit. I. You know what might get a set design nomination is the Cottage.
- [144:59]
B
The Cottage, yeah.
- [145:00]
A
Yeah. And. And costumes, mostly because of the period of it all. I actually didn't like the set of the Cottage because for a farce, it needed more levels, it needed more doors, and, like, there's. It needed to be more of a playground for farce. And it was just so lavish.
- [145:20]
B
Yeah.
- [145:20]
A
And. And didn't really offer that, but it was. It looked beautiful. The gown. The gowns were there.
- [145:28]
B
Absolutely beautiful gowns. Now, Gray House, you also mentioned could be set.
- [145:31]
A
Yes, I did. I did like the set for that also. Good lighting and sound design for that.
- [145:36]
B
Oh, I jumped. I screamed.
- [145:38]
A
Oh, yeah, there were. There were two jump scares for that one. Yes. But. Yeah, I don't know. I need to see what. I need to see what Doubt does. I'm pretty sure that's going to be very basic set design. We'll see what happens with Mother Play and Mary Jane and Vanya. I can't imagine there will be a set design nomination for Enemy of the People. That's going to be in the round. Maybe a lighting design or something like that. And. Yeah, I don't know.
- [146:06]
B
It's a thrilling season. I mean, like, just like the embarrassment of riches that we've been able to discuss today alone. It just reminds me like, Broadway has been back, baby. Yeah.
- [146:16]
A
I mean, I think there's a lot. There's so much left unknown. And I'm very excited by the potential of what will. Of what we'll get to see. I'm hopeful for the spring. There's been such great stuff in the fall, most of them plays, and I. Yeah, I know there's. There's been a lot to chew on this year, and I am very excited to see how that shakes down. There's no real front runner for anything. There's stuff with momentum, and I think Merrily might be our only real front runner for anything right now. But, like, there's always room for an uprising. You know what I mean?
- [146:53]
B
Always. As long as it's not an mj, you know, we can.
- [146:58]
A
I love that. That's your mj is your Paradise Square. That's like the way that I mentioned Paradise Square. Finding Neverland. You've talked about mj. I love that for you. I love that. Granted. Yeah. Yeah.
- [147:10]
B
That's all I'll say on that. Well, I am so honored that you asked me to talk with you about all of this. I love how confident and sharp you are with your opinions. And sometimes I think because the format of my show is interviewing actors, I tend to really quickly build a bias towards their work, their performances and things like that. And I hope I wasn't too precious about anybody who's been a friend of Drama on this, but.
- [147:31]
A
Well, I mean, if we had to limit it to anyone who's a friend of drama, we'd have to, you know, limited that to all of Broadway, because you guys have interviewed everyone. No, you were. You were great. I. Listen, I think it's always important to talk about who's a possibility, who's eligible. Like, things can happen and. And we're. It is still a while away until we have an idea of where narratives are heading. Right, Right. This is us being incredibly bold, incredibly brave. And I'm sure there are some stuff we're going to. That we said today that we're going to look back on in the month and be like, oh, geez, I really thought that after everything that's now gone.
- [148:09]
B
Down, but that's so cool about it, you know, how quickly things change. And I love that we have this then as a time capsule for where the Vibes Were. You use the word vibes a lot today. Where the vibes were in February 2024.
- [148:21]
A
Yeah, well, vibes are important, baby. You know, there are some people who got nominated for shit Purely off of their vibes. And I say to them, teach me your ways because I would love five Tony nominations.
- [148:31]
B
Right?
- [148:32]
A
Give them to me. I would like spread and spread the wealth, baby. Dylan, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [148:38]
B
Well, me personally. You can follow me at Dylan McDowell on all social media. D Y L A N M A C D O W E L L and then at the drama podcast where my twin brother and I release weekly chats with Broadway stars creatives. Sometimes it's just the two of us and we like to, we, like I mentioned, we build our conversation around the ring of Keys moment and in a person's life that moment. They fell in love with the arts and we talk about current events and their careers and what's coming up and sometimes just Bravo tv, you know, it's. It's a very fun weekly podcast with top tier guests and I don't know a lot of people out there doing that. If I have to pat my own.
- [149:13]
A
Back, I mean, yeah, Lord knows I'm not doing it. You, you guys have a really, have carved out a really wonderful niche in the, niche in the, in this community and I appreciate that.
- [149:25]
B
So that means a lot coming from you. Thank you.
- [149:28]
A
Oh my. Dylan, you don't have to compliment me. I have absolutely no sway whatsoever.
- [149:32]
B
I'm already here.
- [149:33]
A
Yeah, you're here. You're in the room. You, you already did the favor. You can start saying what you really felt. Guys, if you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Cop like usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice 5 star rating or review. We got some new reviews during the vacation. I would like to read one of them now if that's all right with all of y'. All. Please cue the light in The Piazza. Overture 5 stars. Perfection. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. I'm a huge Broadway fan and also a former Stage Door Manor attendee. Like the host the Manor. And I absolutely love the in depth conversations about my favorite shows making. Making me feel sorry. Making me really think on another level. The problematic episode on miss Igon is fantastic. Also the longest episode to date. Keep up the great work. Can't wait to dive in and listen to more. Thank you, POD fan. That was very kind of you.
- [150:31]
B
What lovely words.
- [150:33]
A
Listen, the people who choose to listen to this podcast write really awesome reviews and I've had a few people reach out to me and Tell me that they intend to write reviews, but they are in the middle of drafting. Like, I love that y' all are taking the time to think it through, because it makes me. It makes me happy. I like to know that the people who are trying to make quality are listening to the podcast. That makes me feel good.
- [150:56]
B
And they're intelligent, by the way they write.
- [150:58]
A
Yeah, no, they are. They are. They are some smart cookies. And I do not flatter myself that I'm making them any smarter. I think I'm just making them. I make them laugh. I make them laugh. Whenever I talk about pegging, which will be coming up because the next episode is Slave Play. Problematic is Coming back, baby.
- [151:18]
B
Can't wait to listen to that one.
- [151:19]
A
Yeah, it's a. It's a good one. It's a good one. I'm in the middle of editing it now, and we have a lot to say. Got a lot to say.
- [151:26]
B
Amazing.
- [151:27]
A
Amazing. Anyway, this has been wonderful. Dylan, what Broadway diva would you like to close us out with today?
- [151:32]
B
We talked about so many today that it's hard to pick just one, but a part of me is feeling Marianne Plunkett. I love that.
- [151:41]
A
No, I love that. Yeah. God damn it. Yeah. Now the question is, what song from me and my girl am I gonna do right? Because. Yeah. Oh, yeah. God, Y', all. Marianne Plunket's back in a musical. I. I wish there was a professional recording of her singing from Sunday in the park because it's. I know it's good.
- [152:00]
B
What diva would you have said?
- [152:02]
A
I don't know. I would have said, like, Jane Howdish. I don't know. Who would I know. I'm trying to think Music Man.
- [152:11]
B
Maybe there's something I would have said.
- [152:13]
A
Sarah Gettlefinger, back as on Broadway in Watcher for Elephants, and it would have been heard, you know, Daddy's girl from Gray Gardens. But then that's Aaron Davey Erasure, and I won't have it. Or, you know, we mentioned Tunnel of Love from Sideshow. I'll just do that.
- [152:28]
B
I can't go wrong with any of it. We've covered every base today, so every.
- [152:34]
A
Every single person who's ever existed on Broadway has been talked about today. I love. I love the Marianne. So we're gonna do Marian Plunkett. I love that choice. Thank you so much, babe. All right. Thank you so much for listening, guys. You'll hear about Slave Plate next week. And thank you for barreling through this episode with us. It's been a pleasure on my end, and it's been a pleasure for Dylan. Hopefully, it's a pleasure for all of you guys. And I will check back in with Tony stuff in a few weeks. We're gonna start picking up the Tony content again now, and it's gonna ramp up as we get through March and definitely through April. And that's it. Yeah. Take it away, Marianne. Bye. What's the use of worrying about a single blessed thing? After all is done and said?
- [153:15]
B
Pretty soon we'll all be dead?
- [153:18]
A
So as we're alive? If it's a father you want to survive? Just you take on the chin?
- [153:26]
B
Cultivate a little grin?
- [153:29]
A
Just you tight on the chin?
- [153:31]
B
Cultivate a little grin?
- [153:32]
A
And smile, smile, smile?