2026 Tony Awards: Recap and Reaction w/ John Wascavage

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: 2026 Tony Awards Recap & Reaction

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: John Wascavage
Date: June 9, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode is a spirited, in-depth, and unapologetically opinionated breakdown of the 2026 Tony Awards, hosted by Broadway aficionado Matt Koplik, joined by frequent collaborator (and faux nemesis) John Wascavage. Together, they dig into the winners, performances, memorable moments, and the political and artistic context surrounding Broadway’s biggest night—peppered, as always, with humor, deep-dive analysis, and a hefty dose of Broadway gossip.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Banter & Podcast Nostalgia

Timestamp: 04:27 – 06:45

• Reunited in remote-recording style: Matt and John reminisce about recording the podcast separately in its early days and share self-deprecating humor about their dynamic.
• Matt wins the Tonys prediction pool among friends, with John jokingly resigned to always being runner-up.

The Opening Number & Pink as Host

Timestamp: 09:52 – 14:11

• Both rave about the opening number, lauding its fun, self-awareness, and the risk in bringing Pink, a pop star with "no Broadway connection," to host.
  • "That opening was incredible and definitely one of, if not the best opening numbers we've had." – Matt [10:09]
  • "She was so fucking funny, so charming." – John [11:10]
• They praise Pink for her humor and for bringing her own flavor and sincerity to Broadway, poking fun at Broadway tropes.

Standout Performances

Timestamp: 15:45 – 32:02

• Cats/Jellicle Ball: Both loved the Jellicle Ball number, praising its creative re-staging for the TV audience, making it "an all-timer."
  • "I was nervous... but this absolutely sells the show." – Matt [18:53]
  • Extended riff about Broadway design terms, "passerelle," which turns into a drag name joke [22:00].
• Ragtime: John is deeply moved; Matt is more measured, emphasizing the difference between the show's inherent material and this specific revival.
  • “I struggle with my own feelings... the one thing that is not up for debate is how magnificent that score is.” – Matt [17:19]
• Rocky Horror: Called “a lot of fun,” both agree Rachel Dratch is "the glue" for the production and perfectly reigns in the interactive chaos.
• Schmigadoon: A safe but savvy choice for their Tony performance, designed for tourists and casual Broadway fans. [32:02]
• Titanique: John, a self-confessed superfan, admits their number didn’t quite work live; Matt wishes they’d showcased Leighton Williams’ showstopper instead.
  • “For me, Titanique was the weakest performance of all the nominees. And I do think it was kind of bad.” – Matt [40:07]
• Lost Boys: Divisive; both appreciate risks but feel it's lyrically clunky, with misplaced act structure in songs.
• Two Strangers (Carry a Cake Across New York): Both agree the number was pleasant but slightly underwhelming; the show’s slightness is better suited for intimacy, and the Tony moment stretched it thin.

Show Pacing, Presentation & TV Direction

Timestamp: 32:57 – 36:31

• Both found the pacing of the ceremony brisk and improved from recent years.
• More substantial performance slots (over 4 minutes) made a noticeable difference.
• Lighthearted complaints about CBS’ failed attempts to censor profanity during Chicago’s “Cell Block Tango.”

Notable Quotes & Presenter Moments

Timestamp: 102:03 – 104:41

• "Where is their TV show? Where's their buddy comedy?" – John, on presenters Cole Escola & Maya Rudolph, whose banter was a clear highlight.
• "The Greek tragedy Oedipus, which asks the question, can women really have it all? Yeah, they can. I have an SUV and a horse. But enough about my love life." – Maya Rudolph (quoted and admired throughout)

Anniversary Tributes & Miscellaneous

Timestamp: 56:20 – 61:35

• Tributes to A Chorus Line (51st), Chicago’s revival (30th), and Book of Mormon (15th) discussed.
• Pink’s “audition” for Chicago is joked about, leading to an impromptu announcement of Matt & John planning their own queer Chicago at 54 Below.
• Praise for the Book of Mormon reunion performance, noting “twinks” and “twunks” and Nikki M. James’ agelessness.

Awards Analysis: Wins, Speeches & Industry Politics

Timestamp: 71:37 – 87:44

• Major wins appreciated: Laurie Metcalf (Death of a Salesman), Joshua & Casey (Ragtime), Alden (Becky Shaw), and Leslie Manville (Oedipus).
  • Much discussion of Death of a Salesman’s direction, performances, and the “unspoken” Scott Rudin controversy: no onstage thanks to the producer.
• Discussion of art vs. commerce, “political” voting, and the value/misuse of the “most important” narrative:
  • “Do you think Ragtime is important… or are you actually just voting for the nostalgia or gravitas of the show’s subject matter?” (paraphrased theme).
• "The writers don't get the revival Tony unless it's a classics ruling. So people voting for this production of Ragtime because they love Ragtime, not necessarily the production, I go, well, you didn't vote for the musical. You voted for Lear." – Matt [86:56]

Representation, Industry Dynamics & Diversity

Timestamp: 87:44 – 91:59

• They interrogate the industry’s commitment to true diversity, pointing out that Cats’ costume win was the first for an openly trans designer and that much of Broadway’s diversity discussion is “skin deep.”
  • “To talk about the diversity dynamics of Ragtime is from such a shallow perspective because they're purely looking at the actors and nothing else backstage, behind the scenes.” – Matt [90:46]
• Both emphasize the importance of ongoing self-critique and “not just resting on the laurel that ‘Broadway is inclusive’ anymore.”

In Memoriam & Final Tidbits

Timestamp: 93:17 – 95:22

• Praise for Leslie Odom Jr.’s In Memoriam performance (“beautiful, subtle, rent always hits in the heart”).
• Applaud the decision to mute the audience’s applause during the In Memoriam, to avoid “clap disparity” and discomfort.

Final Notes & Announcements

Timestamp: 114:01 – End

• Lighthearted plug for their possible queer Chicago concert.
• Final diva sendoff: Bernadette Peters.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Pink’s hosting: “The fact that they were able to get Neil Patrick Harris on stage and not make me roll my eyes. I think already I went, oh, I think we're in good hands.” – Matt [12:29]
• On the Jellicle Ball: “This sells it. This absolutely sells the show.” – Matt [18:53]
• On Rocky Horror: “Rachel Dratch… was the glue that kept it from being overly chaotic. You know, it was the right amount of messy.” – Matt [26:32]
• On Titanique’s Tony number: “For me, Titanique was the weakest performance…” – Matt [40:07]
• On Laurie Metcalf: “I'm thrilled anytime Laurie Metcalf gets her flowers because I think she is just… God, she's–” – John [74:24]
• On Cats’ historic costume win: “When it came out that Cats won for the first openly trans costume… I was like, what?… that's crazy. I mean. And again. And it should be celebrated through and through…” – John [88:07]
• On Chicago medley and censors: “CBS trying to censor lip shits and failing.” – Matt [61:35]
• On Book of Mormon cast aging: “It's nice to see the circle of life happening in front of us… Like, that's a dad. Oh, wow. He's a dad now.” – John [59:54]
• On the In Memoriam applause: “I really liked that [they muted audience applause]… because when everyone's alive, we go, every person in theater matters. And then the In Memoriam tells you otherwise.” – Matt [94:11]
• On Broadway diversity: “For a group of folks who claim to really understand the fluidity of gender, it's crazy that they don't understand the fluidity of diversity in other realms.” – Matt [90:46]

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• Opening & Nostalgia: 04:27–06:45
• Opening Number Analysis: 09:52–14:11
• Cats/Jellicle Ball Performance: 15:45–23:29
• Titanique & Lost Boys: 37:51–51:33
• Chicago/Anniversary Performances: 61:35–66:41
• Political Voting & Industry Issues: 83:27–91:59
• Best Presenters (CoIe Escola & Maya Rudolph): 102:03–104:41
• In Memoriam & Applause: 93:17–94:50
• Closing Banter & Diva Send-Off: 114:01–End

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Tone & Language

Matt and John maintain their trademark blend of sharp wit, deep theater knowledge, affectionate snark, and irreverent, playful banter. They are honest, occasionally crude, but always passionate and unafraid to hold the industry, or themselves, to account.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode...

This recap distills the lively, thorough, and frequently hilarious breakdown of the 2026 Tony Awards. Matt and John cover every corner: the performances that soared (and stumbled), the implications of high-profile wins, industry politics—especially around diversity, inclusion, and commercialism—and offer plenty of backstage tea and Broadway trivia in their signature style.

If you want a mix of deep dives into theater artistry, industry gossip, and campy camaraderie—all while skipping the fluff—this is the theater podcast episode for you.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hey, guys, it's Matt. Before we begin, I just wanted to give a quick little shout out to a couple of items that I didn't get a chance to talk about for this Tony Awards episode because your faithful host and our dear friend John Wiscavage had too much stuff to talk about. So we're just gonna do a bit of business before we get to the episode. It's very short, I promise. First, I want to discuss an Off Broadway piece that's happening right now with the New York Theatre Company called the Circuit. It is an environmental pop up, sort of walkthrough theatrical piece happening in Dumbo. If you are familiar with the play La Ronde or the musical hello Again, it is based off of that material. It is a piece where strangers or people who are familiar kind of overlap with each other. So one person meets another person, they have an interaction, and then that person, one person from that interaction moves on to another scene where they have an interaction with somebody else. So sometimes it's two strangers meeting at a club and then one stranger leaves and is off with their fiance. And then that scene ends and that fiance goes off to meet a stranger and so on and so forth. And Laurent and hello Again and the Blue Room. And all of these adaptations are always kind of about connection and about finding intimacy and emotional support and some. Again, some kind of connection in this world where there's too much put at stake in status and in sensuality and sexuality and image. And the whole piece is done as sort of like a silent disco. So you are given these headphones. So you hear music and you hear all of the dialogue through the headphones, whereas what's happening in front of you is more of like a dance piece. So you see a lot of performance going on from the actors sort of all around you, but you never hear them speak. You only hear it through your headphones. And again, and it's about a little over an hour, hour and 15, I want to say. And it goes through very specific spots in Dumbo, right by the Brooklyn Bridge and by the carousel and by St. Anne's Warehouse. And so it's very scenic and very well put together and very fascinating and just different. And so I highly recommend, if you're looking for something to do that's off the beaten path of Broadway, the Circuit from New York Theater Company is definitely a worthy thing to check out. You can also check out the Heated Rivalry Unauthorized Musicale. I won't be giving further details on that just yet because at the performance, I, Jay Armstrong Johnson, was out and the producer I know from that show would rather I see it when Jay is in. But I must say, the standby was fantastic. So well done. And I will also just say, without giving away spoilers, it is an exceptionally fun time. So that's another thing you can do that's not quite Broadway. If you're looking for something different right now for the month of June. And on top of all of that, we have a new review for the podcast I want to give a quick bit of flowers to before we get to the meat of the episode. Please cue the light and the Peace Yacht Overture. Five stars. Inimitable. This is not just a great theater podcast, it's one of the best podcasts I've come across on any topic. Matt somehow can concisely communicate his vast expert knowledge in an organized fashion, all while being relaxed and entertaining at the same time. He might be one of the only people who calls me concise and organized. The critiques are specific, thorough, and thoughtful without being boring. Thank you. It's hard to think of anything else that can hold my attention for two and a half hours, and I am probably only a slightly above average theater fan. Well, thank you very much, sir. I really take that to heart. I appreciate that we're going to get to the meat of the episode in just a second, but I also do want to say, after this episode drops, we will not have new content for about a week and a half. So you're going to have to hold tight. We're going to have a couple more deep dives happening, and then we've got a miniseries going. And then we'll talk a bit more about the future of Broadway Breakdown, where we're going, what we're doing, and ways that you can help support and keep it afloat. So, yeah, that's that for now. So take a moment, take a beat, and let's get into Tony Awards Talk with our dear John Wiscavage.

[B]

Think of the prestige. Think of the respect. No, no, no. Think of the Tony.

[A]

Hello all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL, and welcome back. We break down a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is whatever the opposite is of an ally. A villain.

[B]

A villain. My.

[A]

My sworn enemy. The. The. The person, a menace to society, who's responsible for my downfall, who fucked my man and stole my money. Please welcome back to the Podcast John with Scavage.

[B]

Look pretty good for a dead bitch, don't I?

[A]

You sure do. You put the savage in with Scavage.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I do. At least I used to, you know.

[A]

Yeah, you used to do a lot of things. I used to be young, be full of life.

[B]

I was never any of those things.

[A]

I don't know, but we could pretend. And then the pony kicks you in the head and things happened.

[B]

I do have to say, this does feel like a true return to form for, like, the Odin G. Broadway Burke down listeners. When you were like, we're doing it. Like, you could do it from your home. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I broke out the old Snowball mic. Like, literally. I was like, it was giving me flashbacks. Like, it was like I felt like when Clara was 12, like, I went through a whole memory play. I'm just like, oh, my gosh, like, we're doing this again. Because I feel like we started the pod and recorded separately for, like, months. Even before we. Like, we never sat in the same room together for, like, almost a full year.

[A]

Yeah, because you kept being booked and blessed and we had no set schedule, so it was always, I don't know, we'll record when there's something to record about. And stupid us didn't. Didn't realize, like, you needed, like, a weekly or bi weekly thing. So, yeah, we. I think our first, like, six or seven episodes were. Were separate. And then we finally did one together. And that was when we learned that the Snowball mics didn't work in the same room as well. We would pick up each other's echoes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So we would, like, be in the same room, but we'd also be on opposite ends of the room. So it still wasn't like. It wasn't as if we were keeping on the couch.

[B]

It was separate and not equal.

[A]

Like you were two ships passing from a distance. One coming from one going to America.

[B]

America.

[A]

Yeah, America. Which is. I'm glad that we said that because, John, we are here to talk about what happened last night, which is the Tony Awards. Some might say.

[B]

Yeah, some would say that. I would say that.

[A]

Some would say that. Where were you caught watching the Tonys?

[B]

I was watching it from my bed on Paramount. Not a sponsor, but could be. Yeah. Cause I was, as I was just explaining to you, I had been fighting a cold this last week, and so I was feeling pretty good. And then my body was like, oh, you dumb bitch. And I had a busy day today. So I was like, I'm gonna Watch this. And under blankets and in a semi comatose state, which I feel like that's how the Tony Awards should be viewed.

[A]

I think that's how Coloscola wishes they were watching the Tony Awards was in a semi comatose state. I agree. With great success comes great responsibilities and expectations. I personally watched it with about a dozen homosexuals. Had my friends Patrick and Steve's. We had ballots that we all filled out. The winner of the prediction pool got a nice little prize. Can you guess who won?

[B]

I. Mary Louise Parker. I don't know. Oh, you.

[A]

This motherfucker right here. Not by a lot. I only won by one point. I got a couple of things wrong. I got featured actor in a musical wrong. I got score and orchestrations wrong, and I got sound design of a musical wrong. And I got revival of a musical wrong. But I got. Which sounds like a lot, but I got 21 right out of 26, I think.

[B]

I think I was somewhere around, like, it was an oddly hot a year for me for, like, correctly like, picking categories. I probably was. I think I was out maybe 6. 5 or 6. So you still would. You still would have won. You still would have won. But I. I would have been like a solid second or third, maybe if I had gay. If I had gay friends.

[A]

But I was gonna say, first of all, that's our narrative, you and I. I win, and you're a solid second. You're a backup for me. I love that for you. Yeah. No, you. If you had any act, he would have done very well at that party.

[B]

I agree. I really do. But one day. Fingers crossed.

[A]

But also, John, you did see a great deal of this season, so we can also talk about your feelings on performances and what you thought really came off well last night. Any particular wins that meant a lot to you? I know. I want to speak a little bit about a win that I'm not thrilled about, and I want to talk about why. And then I get to move on from that topic for a long time. And I'll be thrilled.

[B]

Yeah, you get to release it and, you know, release it into the ether. And then no one hears this. You know, no one's gonna listen. And so it just. It goes out there and it's. It's free.

[A]

If people listened. If people. If enough people with influence had listened to this, Leighton Williams would have won the Tony for featured actor in a musical last night.

[B]

Iceberg bitch.

[A]

But I will say we did get a very nice speech from Ali. So that was that, you know, wins and loses. But yeah, I Think maybe first of all. Yeah, like, what's. What was a really big takeaway for you from last night. Were there any specific performances or moments or speeches or just feelings that you got?

[B]

I mean, I do kind of just want to rip the band aid off by saying. And I'm interested to hear your thoughts. I loved the opening number. Like, I thought it was a very, very strong, fun opening number. Your face says that. Your face says that you agree with me 1000%.

[A]

I agree with you. I didn't know that I was up for discussion or rather say, I didn't know that was up for debate. Yeah, no, that opening was incredible and definitely one of, if not the best opening numbers we've had.

[B]

It's just like I was. I was. I mean, as they said, gitchy. Get you, Carrie Coon. Like, it, like, took the words right out of my mouth. It's insane. It's. It was the allyship that we needed to hear right now. Someone's brave enough to say it.

[A]

Yeah, someone was brave enough to say it and had that person just had to be pink.

[B]

Love pink. How did that.

[A]

So the thing that kind of was on everybody's lips when she was announced, it was on mine too, for a second. And then I quickly got my stupidity out of my throat. Everyone was going like, yeah, you heard me. Everyone was going pink Her. She has no connection to Broadway. And then the more I thought about it over a few weeks, I mean, the. I'm sure, like the corporate synergy of it all aside, I went, listen, thinking back on her career, woman is genuinely talented, like a good singer, a real performer, smart woman, funny woman, great writer,

[B]

so fucking funny, so charming. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I. When I tell you that probably once a year I rewatch her stupid girls music video, and it's just the character work alone in that is just chef's kiss. But I. So I just. I kept on having a little bit more confidence day by day. And then I started to know some people who were getting involved with it. Do you know Tim Murray? You feel like, you know.

[B]

Yeah, we're like Internet equate, gay equate gay Internet acquaintances, which we all are.

[A]

We're all gay men who have, you know, been funny from time to time. And we're all chronically online, so we all kind of know each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

John and I only sort of barely know each other really.

[B]

Yeah. But two strangers carrying a podcast across New York City.

[A]

Exactly. Two. Two strangers with nothing but cake carrying a podcast across New York. But when, Tim, When I found out Tim was working on the opener. I was like, oh, this is, this is going to be something interesting and fun. And he gave me like the tiniest bit of tea about it a few days beforehand. Just about like how big it was gonna be. I went, okay, we'll see. And then it just. Yeah, I thought it was the right. It opened with some self deprecating humor of just, you know, Pink trying to, you know, be a theater kid and go. But I don't want anyone to say

[B]

what's Pink doing here?

[A]

And. And the fact that they were able to get Neil Patrick Harris on stage and not make me roll my eyes. I think already I went, oh, I think we're in good hands. And then it just ballooned from there.

[B]

Yeah, there was like a, there was a real self awareness to that opening number that, dare I say it, sometimes theater people lack self awareness. And I think there was like, it just, it was fun, it was poking fun at theater while also being a love letter to theater. I mean, Pink obviously expressed multiple times throughout the night and through her performances how much she really cares about the art form. And I just, it started so, so strong for me and I thought it was a great way to rip off the Band Aid of the Tony Awards because sometimes it's a rough start.

[A]

It absolutely can be. I think even when we've had solid openers in the past, they've never been quite like this because there have been. I know some people really enjoyed the Miss Da Bows of it all. As a host in the past, I thought her best opener was the one where they had no writers because they couldn't. But this was a case where, I don't know, it was someone bringing their own flavor to it while also celebrating the room and brought people on board who could help her express all of that. So it's, you know, mention the listing of Carrie Coon and Leslie Manville and Laurie Metcalfe and mentioning all the alphabets being nominated and then. And June Squibb, like June Squibb getting her own line. Amazing. I think Kelly o' Hara got a shout out the. And then the one that made a lot of people piss their pants was Lea Michele being a part of it and shouting and we don't do it for the awards. And everyone was like, that was great.

[B]

Yeah. I almost started actually this podcast, but because I have the brain of a 75 year old woman, I couldn't remember. But Lea Michele posted that, like, what do they call them now? I know they don't call them what's the thing where you not. Not dub smash, but like the modern day equivalent of a dub smash where like you. You lip sync to. I guess it's just called TikTok. Yeah. Is it called TikTok?

[A]

Yeah. When you TikTok to a thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you TikTok to a thing of From. I think it's Scream Queens. When Emma what's her face is like. Bet you thought. Or maybe it's Coven, one of those. One of those Ryan Murphy gay shows that she was on. She's like, bet you saw the Last of me. I almost said that. Did you see that TikTok of Michelle?

[A]

I'm not on TikTok, but I would imagine that it translated to Instagram at some point. But I have. I have not seen it now.

[B]

I. I'm not on it either, but someone sent it to me and I was like, oh, boy. I was like, she. She's starting.

[A]

Yeah, it's. I think that's Emma Roberts on Scream Queens. I think it's Emma Roberts. No, no, it's Emma Roberts on Coven.

[B]

Coven. That's what I was saying. I thought it was Scream Queens, but it actually might be Coven.

[A]

No, I think. No, you're right, it is Coven because she doesn't die on Scream Queens. She dies on Coven. But Lea, Michelle was on Scream Queens, not Coven. That's why I got confused.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. There we go. There we go.

[A]

And we found our way back to water. Helen. Yeah. No, it was just such a. I don't know, it was one of those kind of things where it was big, it was lavish, it was geeky, it was extravagant, and it was very well paced and specific. And I just loved every second of it. I kept watching it going like, yeah, fuck me, this is how it should always go.

[B]

Yeah, she was singing, like, vocals down too. Like, it was just. It really. I thought it set the tone beautifully for the night. Yeah. And if we want to keep talking about, like, other performances that really stuck out to me, you know, I am a sucker for Ragtime and I will always just be so incredibly moved by that show and by that opening number. And, you know, obviously, spoiler alert, the big wins of the night end up going to two of the leads of Ragtime. And I just thought it was. Was a great way to showcase that show. There's a moment in the staging that, like, showcases, you know, the two of them and Brandon and I, I really. I was glad to have another. Because the original Ragtime Tony performance was also the prologue. Correct. Or Am I making that up?

[A]

They did the exact same edit as 90.

[B]

That's what I thought. I was like, you know, I know this is the same thing, but I was like, I'm glad we get the updated version of it or the 2026 version, because I do think that historians will be looking back at this time, you know, after. In the next phase of humanity, you know, after the nuclear blast and everything. And look back at this Tony Ward performance. Go, oh, wow, that's nice that they encapsulated that like last year.

[A]

I'm a little softer on their performance than you are. I. I appreciate that they did that edit. I, like everyone in the company, thought they sang impeccably. Well, watching it kind of reminded me how pristine and excellent the original staging was. And I just, I found this Ragtime Tony performance to be fine, not terrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think really there was only one kind of objectively bad Tony performance. Everybody else was pretty, like, solid to great. Yeah. Like, I'm. I've been very vocal. I'm very mid on this production of Ragtime. I have. I struggle with my own feelings of it as a musical. The one thing that is not up for debate is how magnificent that score is.

[B]

Completely.

[A]

Yeah. And if there's one thing that can be said about the Tony performance is that it was the entire company, thank God. They're the real heroes of this production. Just like fully open throated, you know, musicality on that opener, which is what is enough for most people like John Wiscavage. But I.

[B]

No, I'm not the plebeians like me. Yeesh.

[A]

No, I. We'll talk about. About this more with. When we talk about their win for revival because I don't have any qualms with Josh or Casey winning. And I thought their speeches were very lovely. They're very nice people. And it's nice when people who you hear lovely things about get flowers. Agreed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You just. It's one. It's one of those things where, like, you know that they're good people because you always hear good stuff about them. But it's not in the way of. There's not a single bad story about either person. It's the way of, of they're humans, they've had bad days. And like, people will acknowledge that while also saying they're also wonderful human beings, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Because there's some, you know, you and I both know, people where it's like, they make it very. A point to never have a bad day because they don't Want any stories that could get out about them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so when someone's just like, genuinely good, you're like, ah, how lovely.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[A]

But enough about us. So I. My personal favorite Tony performance outside of the open air was Jellicle Ball, which I've been loved. Yeah, I've been very vocal about how much I love that production. And I was nervous when it became clear that they were going to do a cut of the opening into the Jellicle Ball again, because they've done it now twice on Good Morning America. And I think the View, and it didn't really land for me on either one of those shows, but this was a slightly altered version of that and restaged with better camera work. And the whole thing just. I was like, this is. This sells it. This absolutely sells the show.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I had kind of the same, like, semi trepidations because I have also been like, singing the praises of this musical, of this revival since I saw it, because I am not a Cats fan. I remember seeing Cats for the first time in college at like, like lower tier regional theater. And it started and I was just like, I gotta get out of here. I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I know I don't like it.

[A]

I don't like it.

[B]

I just don't like it. And so, you know, for them to take a show that I truly has never, never made sense to me, never been something I enjoyed, and just make it one of the most enjoyable theatrical experiences of the year. Like, truly, all the flowers that they got, they deserve and more, you know, like, I truly think that they are, like, everyone should go see this production, whether you like Cats or not. But as you were saying, I also saw those other TV performances and thought, you know, like, it is interesting to see it translate and, you know, it's. It's always so interesting to see because I think there are some other shows that we also love that, like, the way that it translates on the stage is always. Doesn't always read and, sorry, translate on the stage, on film. And because of the size of the stage, I definitely thought I was like, oh, is this just gonna get, like, sucked up? Like, how is it gonna read? And I guess maybe because of, like you said, the camera work. Definitely. But also one of the things that I think really helped is the way that that stage is set up with kind of that catwalk built into it with kind of that, hello, Dolly esque. What's it called? Not a promenade, is it?

[A]

The promenade. The Parasol. Not parasol. It's. It's some. I want to say the. God damn it, I'm. You're. Make. I knew this. I absolutely knew this.

[B]

And I threw out the wrong word, and I fucked you up. That's what I'm here for.

[A]

It's not a parasol. It's not a promenade, but it's something like that.

[B]

Yeah. But anyways, while you look that up, I think that maybe that really helped too, because it kind of was able to give us back the catwalk feel, because the actual playing space of the Cat's revival is very small. It's not a big stage at all. It's basically a small catwalk that juts out and they play some other things here and there. But, yeah, I think it translated really, really well into a very, very fun, very, very. Just Jellicoe Tony performance.

[A]

Exactly. First of all, it's the passerelle, so I was close. Passerelle.

[B]

Yes. Yes, yes. That is it.

[A]

Yes. It's. It's. It.

[B]

Ooh, great drag name.

[A]

I was.

[B]

I was gonna say the same thing.

[A]

Please welcome the stage.

[B]

Pass around. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Pass her around. You know what I mean? Change her out costume. Me. Me. Change it around.

[B]

And when she's, like, having a bad day, it's. She is not passing around. Like, she's not passing.

[A]

When the look is crunchy. She's not.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

[A]

You're not passing rail.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

Yeah, the passerelle. Yeah, no, it's. It's. It was a good setup. They usually do some sort of. Because this one actually was more sort of like the. The Hairspray Passerelle, where it was. It's. There's the lip that you can walk around, but then also there's a walkway that shoots straight through it, which I remember Hairspray had That Hairspray might have had two. Because then, like, the Gypsy Pastoral is the one that just, like, goes around the orchestra, and then this one had a walkway in the middle as well. So they didn't just go around in a circle. They could also go straight down, which I appreciated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, like, what I loved about the Jellicobald performance was they really made use of the space, and it was a performance that was solely for the Tony Awards. Like, that's not a chunked out excerpt from the show. It is taking stuff from the show and making it new content for the assignment. Editing, which I appreciated. But also, that kind of shows you the. The difference between that and the ragtime performance, which Was basically like we're just going to take what we do. Condense a little bit. And you know, you either take it or you don't. And that's sort of.

[B]

And I take it and you don't. I guess that's what you heard it here first, folks.

[A]

John takes it and I don't. Yep.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So this, this episode brought to you by the Eagle.

[B]

Peachy. Peachy. But what's it called? I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

Peachy.

[B]

Isn't that the fiber thing? Bum bums. What are they called? Am I having a psychotic break again?

[A]

I think so. I think we're learning in real time once again how John and I are on different ends of the gay life spectrum of the things that just like, are natural to us. What do you mean you don't know that thing? What do you mean you didn't watch that thing?

[B]

Well, I don't actually take it, but I swear I see commercials for it. Maybe it's a like I saw the TV glow type situation where like I'm seeing things that aren't really. It's probably that it's psychosis again. Don't worry about it.

[A]

Exactly. We're still kind of coming down from last night. You have to give us grace with what we say and what we remember.

[B]

I'm sure you had a couple drinks out, a couple nightquil shots. It all evens out in the dark.

[A]

Exactly. I had a lot of donuts as well. I would say some other performances that I enjoyed. So I loved the Jellicoe Ball performance. I was fine on the Ragtime performance. I enjoyed the Rocky Horror performance. I thought that was a lot of fun.

[B]

Yes. I really enjoyed the production of Rocky Horror and was so, so glad to get like to them also have this because there was never. It was never nominated at the original production or even the revival, was it?

[A]

The revival was. The original wasn't.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was. Yeah. The original was a notorious flop. And then the revival with Alice and Daphne or Ben, like that. That one was nominated. But it was sort of a.

[B]

But did they do a Tony performance?

[A]

They did. They also did the Time Warp. If you. You can go online and see it. It's a little rushed, it's a little messy. But they do do it. They do do. They do do do it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This performance, I will say I prefer the musicality of the last re productions. Tony performance was stronger.

[B]

Yeah. I mean it was just so much fun to watch. I loved this cast. I love this cast. I think it's A very, very strong cast for the most part. And yeah, I mean, some of my like gay little friends, we were texting like it was just, it's what Rocky Horror, like what you want it to be. A mix of fun, a mix of nostalgia and also just gay horny. Like, you know, we have bulge, we have, you know, Rocky and like a see through, like wrestling thong. I don't.

[A]

It's like a fishnet onesie.

[B]

Yeah. And like whatever it is, it's doing God's work and like, God bless it. Yeah. I also really, really enjoyed that along with that whole just production as a whole. And as a whole, you enjoyed it as John.

[A]

As a whole. Enjoyed production as a whole. I have been singing the praises of Rachel Dratch in that production for a while, ever since her nomination. Because if you go online, a lot of people are like, I don't understand that. And I'm sort of going, I understand it and I feel it's so small. But watching that performance last night, the way that she kind of held it all together from starting the damn thing with the introduction to, you know, just the jump left and all that. I don't know you just. For me, she was the glue that kept it from being overly chaotic. You know, it was the right amount of messy.

[B]

Well, and I agree with that as well with kind of the whole people having questions about her Tony Nom. You know, I, I don't know how it was on the performance that you saw, like how early it was in the run. I saw it probably only about like three or four weeks ago. And you know, I think early on the run there was a lot of talk about like, are callbacks allowed? Are people callbacking what's going on here? And the performance that I saw, she did such a lovely job of reining it in while also not making anyone feel absurd or othered or like you shouldn't be doing this. But also like at times, like, I mean, she really took charge in a lot of those moments to be like, I'm not giving you the space to do it. And then if people were doing it, her improvs, or at least I'm expecting a lot of them were improvs, were also very, very fun and just kind of had that theater magic that we all love and often gets baked into a show where, you know, like a corpsing moment of like, oh my God, I saw something I'm not supposed to see because the actors broke the, the, the fourth wall or they broke this or they, they dropped character. So yeah, I I agree. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. She. I saw it the night before it opened, so I. Yeah, I. I think I saw it when they. When she finally had fully cooked on the callbacks and all that, because I. I felt the same way that you did, which was. I thought it was the right balance of callbacks are going to happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's about figuring out which ones are absolutely going to happen and which ones she's gonna, you know, not let. And she definitely had some callbacks to. Or she had some responses to callbacks that I thought were great because it also did kind of give the mentality of, you know, think about whether the callback you're about to do is. Yes, a real one or one. Yeah, exactly. Because every now and then, somebody would do one on their own, which was clearly a. Well, in Pasadena, we all do it at this theater, which is like, you're 100 out of 100 million people.

[B]

And she would.

[A]

She would do something where she's like, okay, and then move on.

[B]

She had a way of maintaining her status without making that people feel foolish, which is a very, very fine line to walk, and will also kind of, in a way, making us not laugh at them, but laugh along with it, while again, still like, kind of being like, no, no, this is my shit.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of. There will be callbacks because I allow it, not because you get to call the shots here. I also. I don't know if it's changed at all, but I remember when I saw it, Stephanie Hsu and Andrew Duran's responses to most of the callbacks usually to just, like, the slut and asshole. It was always a little bit of Brad and Janet hear it sort of like, in the distance, in the wind, and they're like, almost as sort of a. Is that the plumbing or did someone call me a slut? Like, it was very, very funny.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I. I think that was whether that was baked in from the beginning or something. They found it was. It was still a part when I saw it. I really, really enjoyed it.

[A]

Yeah, I. I have. I do have some notes on this production, but I understand what the vibe is of trying to bring Broadway and culty underground, you know, queer messiness and, like, trying to find a balance of the two. And I think now that people know that that's what this production is, there's a bit more joy for audiences because people have their own expectations going in, and now that we all sort of know what it is, we can just sort of let it be what it is. Yeah. I'm trying to think. Any other major performances I really enjoyed.

[B]

I. Foreign.

[A]

Let's talk about the best musical nominees for a second.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Of the four, was there one that you thought either strongly represented their show or one that you watched and you went. I could see that selling some tickets.

[B]

Yeah. I would have to say that.

[A]

I.

[B]

And again, it's. It. The. They really didn't break ground by doing this. But I do felt. I do felt she done.

[A]

Who felted.

[B]

I done do felt it. I do feel that Shemegadoon just really. Even though I feel like at this point, people do know what it is. I feel like rather than going kind of the corn pudding route or anything, I feel like just really laying into the meta. Ness of like, we're at the Tonys, we're doing the musical number. We're in the musical world. This is pastiche. This is what's going on. I thought it was, you know, a semi safe choice, but I also thought it was a strong choice because if anyone. Here's the thing about Schmigadoon. Here's the thing. It. It is to me, it falls in the category of shows of something rotten where if you're a theater person, you're already gonna buy a ticket to it, but you're also kind of the main audience. So the big hurdle they have to get across is selling to people who. Who aren't gonna get the, you know, people who aren't gonna get the Oklahoma. Reference from the. From the get go, who aren't gonna get the Brigadoon references, who aren't gonna get, you know, the carousel, all that. So I think they were smart to not try to reinvent the wheel, per se, and to just kind of do what the Tonys is, which is sell your show, be a commercial for your show, for the tourists who are watching this and take their yearly trip to New York and save up their money. And, you know, those are the, you know, we want. And we want to come back to Broadway over and over again. And, you know, I think it's for the. Your aunts and uncles who are like, I don't know. That looked fun. I don't know much about musicals, but maybe I'll enjoy it. So I enjoyed it.

[A]

Yeah, I thought it was perfectly fine. It wasn't maybe the most exciting, but it was clean, it was presentable. That's sort of how I feel about Schmiga doing the show. What I appreciated was because we had fewer nominees this year. Cause last year it was five best musical nominees, four Revivals plus we got adjust in time and a real woman have curves. And even with our numerous tribute performances there was still enough time to add to the other nominees performances. Because the last couple of years I would say that the musical performances have averaged like three and a half to three minutes and 50 second, you know, length. And this one was probably around like the 42430 mark. And it's kind of amazing what an extra like 30 seconds can do for a performance just, just in terms of like letting it breathe and letting it have a genuine arc. Doesn't feel rushed, you know.

[B]

I agree they felt longer even though like you said they weren't that much actually longer. But it didn't feel as, as just shoved down your throat. This is what it is. It did feel like we had time to expand and yeah, I actually kind of to backtrack a little bit too. I felt that the pacing of this Tonys was also quite good. I don't know how you felt but like sometimes I feel like it really drags. And of course there were moments where it lags. It's live TV and we're theater people and there's always gonna be just mess ups, you know, Pink's gonna forget which camera's hers to start talking. She's gonna go oh shit. And you know, it's a funny moment and it's five seconds they lost and it goes over the 11 o' clock news. But I thought, but even though the pacing of this year felt really brisk per se, overall it did give. Whether or not that allowed them more time for these musical numbers. The musical numbers didn't feel rushed and it did feel like a really nice representation for each. They really got to stake their claim.

[A]

No, absolutely, I, I concur. It was, it was, I thought it was a very well paced show. It also helped that they, they were not fucking around on some of those award placements of, of what, what things they were announcing when yeah, like we got best play early. We got, yeah, we got the directors early. I was like, oh, fuck me up. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I had a moment where I was like, did I miss like part of the broadcast? I was like this started. I was like, did they do a second opening number? Like I, I, I thought that as well but I, I think it did kind of help shake up, you know, maybe the repetitiveness of like all right, not, and again, not that any category is more important than another but at the same time there are ones that you look forward to and ones that of a. Okay, who's Gonna win? Is it, Is it gonna be, you know, Leah, Is it?

[A]

So on our last video where we were doing, like, final predictions, we were. The way we were doing it was we were going back and forth and I said, let's put, you know, at the beginning, let's do one big category into small categories and, and move on from there. Meaning like, you know, best actress in a musical with sound design of a play and lighting design of a play and somebody wrote. I ended up deleting it just because it was a stupid comment. But they're like, who says that? Big and small, like, you should be ashamed of yourself. I' you know what I mean? Which is ultimately that, like, you can be all butthurt as you want, but the truth is that majority of people want to hear the thoughts on best musical, best director. They don't care about sound design. They should, but they don't.

[B]

Right? They should. Yeah. And I mean, the person who commented that, I would love to hear them list out every person who was not made for sound design, who was for lighting design. You know, it's like that, you know, I, I'm sure, I'm sure they're, they, they know all of that. But, and if it was.

[A]

And, and, and, and they were going to shout me out on the stage when they won for Ragtime. But it's fine.

[B]

It's fine. But I, yeah, I like. Because we got Laurie Metcalfe's win very early on, like, and I liked it. I liked it.

[A]

You got Laurie Metcalf and you liked it. There's some parody that I kissed a girl from that for sure. Yeah, it was pretty brisk. I'd say the biggest hurdle were certain speeches. John Lithgow and Leslie Manville definitely took their time, which is fine. There was a lot of reading speeches off of phones, which a few people in my room were not on board with. And I responded with, they're saving trees. Just let them read from their phones.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

I, I don't. I think we're now at a point where it's no longer gauche to have a prepared speech. I think that.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

It doesn't mean you are assuming you were going to win. It's just, you know, you had a contingency plan. Yeah, I didn't trust my nerves should it happen. And when the unthinkable happened, like, I don't think Ali necessarily believed he was going to win there. There was so much hype around Ben and Andre, but Ali had his speech prepared on a piece of Paper. I'm like. Because that motherfucker's professional.

[B]

Yeah, No, I. Yeah, I think that's. That's an extremely valid point. I mean, people forget that actors a lot of times are, how you say, messy, complicated people who feel things. Who feel things very, very strongly. And if you're winning a fucking Tony Award, which, you know, all these people, that is like the mountaintop. That is the dream. Yeah. You're gonna like, I'm flustered giving my McDonald's order. You know, it's like. Like, truly. It's like, McFlurry Oreo McFlurry.

[A]

You're doing this podcast today, John.

[B]

I am. Well, also because I had to.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

I have a healthy glow. Because I had to turn off the AC because it was giving some white noise. Other than this.

[A]

Other than the noise coming out of John's mouth.

[B]

Yeah. But. Yeah, all right. So we talked about. Well, we just talked about Rocky and performances.

[A]

We talked about Cats, Ragtime Rocky. We talked a little bit about Schmigadoon.

[B]

Schmigadoon. Yeah. Yeah, I. I will say. And you and I have talked about this. I'm a titanique freak. It is. It is. To me, it had my vote for best musical, which I know a lot of people would be like, might be like, the fuck. But in these current hard times, I think laughter is worth its weight in gold. And I think that that show is doing a lot of stupid things and in a lot of subversive ways, healing a lot of stupid things and at least healing the stupid thing. First and foremost.

[A]

Those of you, let's not jump to conclusions.

[B]

Those of you just listening. I pointed to myself on that last one for this stupid thing. But that said, I enjoyed their Tony performance a lot. I don't know if it was sound mixing or what, but to me, and again, maybe it was also the fact that it is this scrappy little show that did start in a basement of a Gristide's, and now they're on stage at the Tony Awards. And yes, of course, they're Broadway stage, which is amazing. Love the stage of the Voice that they have in that joke, I think is brilliant. But I enjoyed their Tony number. But there was a couple moments where I was like, oh, did something happen? Did you feel the same way? Am I being weird?

[A]

You're not being weird. There were a couple of times where I felt like Marla pulled the mic away from her mouth in case the note wasn't the note she wanted. Because the thing about Tony performances is that there is a Pre recording situation, usually it's ensemble mixing, but, like, lead vocals tend to be live. And it might have been that Marla wasn't necessarily feeling her oats and was like, well, let's see what happens. You're here, there's nothing. Which, like, I have also done. But, but these things do happen. I don't. I understand why they would do the mashup that they did for me. Titanique was the weakest performance of all the nominees. And I do think it was kind of bad. It started okay, like, the way they began the introductions, I was like, oh, yeah, and they're going into taking chances. I, that, sure, sure, sure. But then they go into. They did a very sloppy transition into My Heart Will Go On. I felt. And, and it just wasn't. It didn't build in a special way.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that was one of the first time that my ears kind of hooked into something where I feel like, I think there was a transition, like a chorus, a choral transition, vocally, that something. Again, I don't know if it was live. It sounded live to me. Cause it actually sounded like there was wrong notes either being played or sung. Like, I, I, I, I don't know. And I, I, I haven't gone back to watch it. So I'm only speaking from my very, very, you know, shaky memory at best. Shaky memory. But yeah, there were. I, I agree that the transitions and, and, and certain things and the way that, the way that it was picking up. Because she does sound way more like Celine in the theater than I thought she sounded in the Tony Awards. Like, I, I didn't really hear much of her then, vocally, the singing Celine, like, she's still, of course, you know, like, hello, girlfriend, Cookie. Crazy. Like, that was all Celine, her selenisms. But yeah, something with the, the sound just sounded. And, and she did not sound bad. That's not what I'm saying at all. I mean, she, like. No, that's not what I'm saying. But it, I, I, I, you know, I, I think that that performance was. And maybe my expectations were just really high because I love it so, so much. And it has truly been the shining jewel of the ocean. Gem of the ocean.

[A]

Gem of the ocean, yeah. Heart of the ocean.

[B]

Heart of the ocean. It's been the shining heart of the ocean of my heart of the season. So I want everyone to see their Tony performance and go, I need to see that kooky, crazy thing, girlfriend.

[A]

Well, it makes sense that you would call it the Heart of the Ocean because it Is the heart of your hole, and your hole is as big as the ocean. So see the. The twists and turns I took to get there. It all comes back to your behind, John.

[B]

It was great. It was great. Yeah. So many. So many undiscovered creatures still live in the ocean and my fathoms below, fathoms be ho.

[A]

But so for me, it's. It's. Yeah, I. Marla is a. Is a really good singer. I do feel like there was a little bit of nerves that kind of got in the way there. There was some mixing issues. I also just. I don't think that was the right song choice. I get why they would do it. My Heart Will Go on is, you know, the most well known song, but that's sort of where I go. Okay. But you have to think about what's going to land there, because the truth is that if this is a commercial, which it all is in its own way, you can't really think of it as a commercial. You got to think of it as, you know, this is our chance to preserve a piece of our show forever. And if you do it well, then it actually can be a great commercial for your show. Like, that's sort of what I loved about it. Jellicobal's performance of capturing the energy and really kind of figuring out how to translate what they do to that theater, even if it isn't an exact replica of what they do in the theater.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for me, I thought. I thought it was a missed opportunity. I understand why they would want to put Marla front and center. My hot take is that they should have done Riverdeep Mountain High with some of the lip sync for your lifeboats.

[B]

I was gonna say that as well. I do think that the strength of Titanique is not always in its music or, like, its Celine song choice, if that makes sense. Like, most of the comedy lives in the book and in the absurd circumstances that these songs are being sung in. And My Heart Will Go on doesn't really live in the absurdity that the rest of the show thrives on a la, you know, Iceberg Bitch, aka Tina Turner, aka RuPaul, doing a lip sync. You know, like, I completely agree. I do think that that song choice would have been a much better. As you said, it is just undeniable commercial and time capsule for that show.

[A]

Yeah. But I wonder what was the decision making for that being the performance? And I don't want to be cynical, but I do feel like there was some egos involved in picking that and not picking Leighton's number because Leighton is not sort of the face of the show in the way that other people are. And it's a shame because I think it would have been the better choice. It would have been the better presentation. I think it would have gotten them far more acclaim and awareness because we're being, you know, gentle here. The truth is that if you think that we're being harsh, just go to their YouTube clip from on, you know, the CBS page where they're, they've listed all the Tony performances. They're not getting, like, a lot of love in the comments. And so I'm, I'm only saying this because anyone who's thinking that you and I are being extraordinarily harsh, just know that we actually are being incredibly kind Giman and trying to be respectful and understanding, like, where our disappointment and what we understand is the reality of a situation kind of meet hand in hand. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all, to me, it's, it's not a bad mark on the show, on anyone's talent. I think it's just a missed, a missed marketing opportunity because like you said, if Leighton performed, I mean, there's no way they would not have gotten a standing ovation because that number just brings down the house. I mean, my jaw was on the floor when I saw it. So I, I, I, I think, I think points have been made.

[A]

Points have been made. Shots have been fired and icebergs have been hit.

[B]

But.

[A]

So that's Titanique, Lost Boys, which is a surprisingly divisive show this season.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I guess I get why it's a big, it's a big bolt swing in many ways, and the people who fight for it fight very hard for it.

[B]

Very hard. Yeah, Very, very hard.

[A]

And there have been many a person who've also reached out to me with pure hatred in their heart for it, which is, I find very hilarious. I just, I don't know. People see, people seem to come to find me, John, to give me their thoughts on stuff all the time. I don't know why. I don't know what would make them think that I would care about opinions on the.

[B]

I don't know why either, truly. We should look into that.

[A]

We should look into it. But the truth is that it's always, it is almost always negative opinions that people reach out to me for. It's always, can we dish about such and such? And sometimes they want to, like, shit on something that I actually really liked. And so I'm always be like, you can say what you want. Don't expect me to pile on with you because I'm gonna save this little puppy from your kicks. But, but, but I, I mean, I've been very vocal. I, I enjoy the first act of Lost Boys. I think it's a bit bloated, but I, I enjoy it. The second act is where they lose me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, you know, win or lose, up or down, left or right, gay or straight, vampire or human. I thought their performance was solid. It was a little. I felt, I wish that it kind of built a little more towards a climax because it had a lot of energy to it. But then it just sort of.

[B]

It plateaued. Yeah, it hit a plateau pretty early on. Yeah. I, you know, I. Lost Boys is not my personal cup of tea. I think that the performances in it, Shoshana and Ali, like, so deserving. Really, really wonderful performers. Really, really wonderful actors. For me, to be honest, it's a lot of the songwriting, especially, especially the lyrics that, like, really, you know. And like you said, Act 2 just really lost me. Like, really, really lost me. And again, I'm. I live on planet Mars, you know, I, I love something that is out there and crazy and taking chances. But, you know, I, I just, I. I think there is something to say about, like, the lyrics of that show. Like, I just had to write down the lyrics. I remember sitting in the theater being like, something about these lyrics are like hitting me the wrong way. And as I was like, as I was listening, I was like, oh, God, I really don't know. Like, maybe I'm being too harsh. And then last night, with that, like one number, that first part of the number they did, and that line of like, it's the death of me. Uh huh. I was like, that's it. I don't know. I don't know why, but that line was the encapsulation of my problem for the lyrics, for me, because I think there are so many strong ideas and things happening in Lost Boys. I just don't think that the execution of the writing of the material was always extremely successful. And that is my personal opinion. And with the Tony performance, I was reminded, I do also like some of the lyrics. I like the fact that there's the whole vampire analogy of this rock song of like, let me in, you know, like the kind of rules of vampire, all those kind of metaphorical things. But at the same time, as we said, it just kind of like hit a plateau. And then I was like, oh, it's over. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I think my Thing with the score of Lost Boys is I actually enjoy quite a lot of the music. Not always where it's applied in the story, if that makes sense. Yeah, there are some. There are some songs where I go, this isn't necessarily a bad song. It's just. This is the form. 4th Rock Power Ballad we've had in a row. And. Yeah, well. And granted, you know, ragtime has like 20 power ballads in a row in act two. That's pretty much all act two is. But they are at least more specific and, and, and have a build to them in some kind of way. And, And Lost Boys for me is every. The, The. The rescues clearly, like, you know, did their homework and they tried to learn how to write a musical theater score, but it is still their first score. And so there are moments where you go, this will improve when you do this more. You know, like certain lyrics are. They capture the essence or the moment or the thought, but there's a little bit of an amateur clunkiness to it, which. There's charm in that sometimes. But then other times a lyric will scan and it'll go, could we take another pass? Because I see what you're trying to get at, but I think you can say that better, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Or like, you know, there was. I agree with the song placement too. You know, like that song that he sings about wanting a family or wanting to be part of a family right after he drinks the blood to join a family. I was. Was like, but you just joined the family. Like, you. You sang the I Want song after you. You did it. Like, so. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like, I thought it was a lovely song. Like, that was the thing. It was a lovely song, a lovely moment. But there were just. There were certain writing things that to me, just. Just felt like you said, just with another pass or with more time will iron themselves out. Because it's not a bad score by any means, friends.

[A]

But I think that's also where you take the other. Other paths, where you go, no, no, we want this song to be. Or it's like, okay, we gotta then tweak the lyrics a bit and not be about, I wanna join a family to. Like, I've always wanted to join a family. Now I'm in a family.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Easy. Easy fix. See, this is why every Broadway show needs me as their cunty dramaturg. Yeah, their drama turd, one might say. Where, you know, I just. I come in for two weeks during rehearsal and then a week in previews, and I offer some Snippy night notes that are all correct. They get applied and then I leave.

[B]

I thought you were gonna say they get applause and then I leave. I give them notes, they applaud me and then I go.

[A]

They applaud me, then they apply them

[B]

and then I leave and I get

[A]

my little checky check and. And all is fair in love and war. I don't need to be thanked in Tony speeches. I just, you know, need to keep getting hired to do it. But yeah, I, I think, yeah, as. As we just said with Lost Boys, I think the performance was fine. It did have a problem of plateauing, which is a shame. Not a bad performance at all. If this were. The truth is that last year I thought was a better season and a worse ceremony, and this year I thought it was a worse season and a better ceremony.

[B]

Yeah, interesting. I, I think there's a lot to say about that.

[A]

Did you not like last season either?

[B]

Sorry, you mean the, the 20, the one that we just finished right now? Now did.

[A]

No. Did you not like the 2025 season? The Audrey and Nicole maybe happy ending season?

[B]

No, I did, I thought. Sorry, I thought you said you.

[A]

The last Tony ceremony, like the Audra Nicole ceremony. I thought that ceremony was kind of lackluster for a season that I liked a great, A great deal.

[B]

This Tony.

[A]

That's what I.

[B]

Solid. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And then I said this. Yes. But then you looked at me like I was silly. So I wasn't sure if you liked this season more or you liked last season less or what.

[B]

No, I just like looking at you like you're silly.

[A]

This could be the start of something new. Oh, and that just leaves us with two strangers carry this cake across New York. Now, John, maybe this is where you and I finally announce that we are going into two strangers together.

[B]

Yes, as the cakes.

[A]

Yes, as you're going as the cake. I'm one of the suitcases.

[B]

Yeah, just stuffing things in. You left and right. But enough about the eagle.

[A]

Jesus Christ. Yeah, no, also similar. For me it was a little similar to Lost Boys where like, I thought it started well, started strong and then it kind of just leveled out for me. Yeah, I, I think they did as best they could with a show that is just two people on a stage that is a fourth the size, a tenth the size of Radio City.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. And then they tried to give it a bit of a glow up without betraying what the show's all about. I just, I've been very vocal also with that show where I found it more cute. Cute than charming. And that for a show that is ultimately rather slight, you need it to be its most condensed, tight version of itself. And I find Two Strangers to be stretched a little too thin for what it's trying to do. Like it's a little too long, It's a little too big.

[B]

I was trying to remember there is an intermission in that show, right?

[A]

There sure is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was the song they did on the Tonys. It was the opener. Ish. Into what was the actual finale.

[B]

That's what I thought. That's what I thought. Right. Because they're in the hotel. Because that's one that I feel like I saw months ago. And I mean, again, I can barely remember what I did last week. So like, God bless me if I can remember something from months ago. And yeah, I definitely agree with a lot of what you're saying. I mean, again, at the end of the day, the two of them are just such talented performers. They're very delightful. I've been such a fan of both of them for a while. So, you know, it was really nice to have this time capsule of that for these two performers. And I do. I like it when it's a show that is so small on that stage. I know it doesn't translate well like always, as we obviously were just saying. But there's something to me that I always like the little engines that could. You know what I mean? Like there's something that feels really funny. Not funny, that feels really not empowering. But just we did it about two people.

[A]

It's life affirming almost. You know, that talent and passion can really lead to something. I mean, by the end of the ceremony, it turns out actually it was the Little Engine that couldn't because they didn't. They didn't win nothing. I know, but maybe, maybe they'll get a nice little push after the ceremony. Who's. Who's to say things. Things do happen sometimes.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

Yes. I. Yeah, it's. It's again, Titanique was really the only one that I found to be weak. Everyone else, I thought, you know, no one embarrassed themselves. Everyone did a strong showing. Others are just. There were just certain performances for me where I went like, like Jellicoe for me. I walked out. Away from that. I went. That's kind of an all timer. That's going to be one. We're going to keep coming back to year after year of like. That was one of the best Tony performances of, you know, in the last few years. Yeah. And Rocky Horror again just like, such delight. And then ragtime, you know, also very strong and a good showcase for the talented persons in that company. So those are the performances. Oh, and then we have some tributes that were also happening. Like, John, did you know that it's the 51st anniversary of A Chorus Line? 50th anniversary since it won the Tony.

[B]

I do know now.

[A]

Yes, it's the. Also it's the 30th anniversary of Chicago opening. The revival of Chicago opening on Broadway. And it's the.

[B]

The 15. 15 year anniversary of book of Mormon.

[A]

Yes. So anniversary school. Did you know that it's technically speaking, the ninth anniversary of when we started this podcast?

[B]

Oh, he did it. Oh, my God. If. If one of us had gotten pregnant, we would have an eight year old. We'd have like a third grader.

[A]

We absolutely would.

[B]

Wow, that's beautiful.

[A]

I'm not. I'm not really happy with my life choices now that I realize I've known you for nine years. What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?

[B]

So much. Hey, you are the one who came to me with this idea, Bob. So you're the sicko.

[A]

You're the real sicko, Johnny boy. You have that to your dying day. I am the one who came to you like the subservient little subserve that I am. And I said, sir, would you do a podcast with me? Me?

[B]

When you said peasant, I said, yes, passerelle. I will.

[A]

Yes, passerelle. But so we have our three tributes. We had A Chorus Line, we had Chicago, and we had Katniss Everdeen. Yeah, yeah, Katniss Everdeen. But so I would. I think that we had two very successful ones and one that sounded nice, but I wasn't quite sure what the vibe was supposed to be.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. I really think that to continue singing Ms. Pink's praises, I thought she. Her audition to play Roxy, you know,

[A]

or Velma, whichever one.

[B]

Or Velma, whichever one. I feel like they always stunt cast Roxy more. So for some reason my brain always goes there. But I mean, she. I really enjoyed it. She was fantastic. I really enjoyed seeing, you know, aging twinks like us representation. I felt seen, I felt sawed in half and I enjoyed that. And you know, I will always be a Rachel Zegler fan, but I do feel like the kind of consensus that I saw amongst everyone was like, this is lovely. What? Why? Yeah, you know.

[A]

Yeah, it's sort of everything sort of felt a little bit like an excuse for more to pad the ceremony with, with performances and time, which I'm sort of sitting here going, well, we could have thrown an extra 45 seconds to the nominees and they could have had,

[B]

like, we could have heard what Lyn Ayers was trying to say before she got cut off.

[A]

Yeah, I have a thing to say about that in a second. It's actually quite a hot take that no one's gonna like until I say my full sentence about. Has nothing to do with Lynn. It has everything to do with the Tony win. But so I. And that was a rhyme, everybody. But, yeah, I mean, I enjoyed the Book of Mormon performance. It was fun to see that company come back together and give it the same gusto that they had 15 years ago.

[B]

Yeah, they were killing it. They were killing it.

[A]

They were killing it. And it was clearly, like, so much so loving to do that number again. It was the kind of fire of not, I have something to prove. And we're just like, I get to do this again. And that was really nice.

[B]

And it was so nice to see again, like, we're so used to seeing twinks. It's nice to see the twunks. Like, it's nice to see the circle of life happening in front of us. Stuff like, oh, wow, look at, like, that's a dad. Oh, wow. He's a dad now, too. And I mean, like, some of them are actually dads. Like, some of them I'm talking about, like, do actually have children.

[A]

Like, some of them actually made babies.

[B]

Yeah. But I truly. It's like, it's so funny to think of, like, those smiley little holes are now just like muscle men and they have 401ks, you know, like, wow. Speaking.

[A]

And speaking of the eagle, you know, some of us have experienced, but, But I, I do also appreciate that it's all of, all of these boy men we were talking about, and then Nikki M. James, who just come out. Who comes out and goes, so, what's this aging thing you speak of? I've never.

[B]

I know, I know. I thought the same thing. I was like, oh, she really swept the girls up, didn't. She's like, she gathered the girls together.

[A]

Everything else is the same. I don't know what, what's so hard? What do you mean you got bigger? I, I. Sample size still.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

You're getting lines on your face. How do you. I just, I don't, I don't know what's, what's, what's, what's your life?

[B]

I thought the same thing. I was like, oh, gosh it's so good to see everyone just so grown up. And I was like, oh, say, oh, we have. Death becomes her. Like a death becomes her situation going on now, a warning.

[A]

And that's where I felt represented was watching an unaged person on stage and going, nicki M. James, I feel your struggle too. I watch all of my friends slowly fall apart and I'm just here staying the same man.

[B]

That must be such a struggle for you.

[A]

It is, John. I keep trying to put on weight, I keep trying to get gray hairs, and it just won't happen.

[B]

I'm so sorry. This episode brought to you by Wayne

[A]

Govee Wegovy so, and then we had our Chicago, which I will say, okay, so Book of Mormon fully did like a slice of the show, condensed it, but, like, you know, whatever. Chicago was a genuine. Let's fuck around and find out. So it was a nice little. Little medley. We had Alex Newell pissing all over the floor.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. How can I forget? Dear God.

[A]

Yeah. But then truly to then cut back to the audience for the intro into Cell Blocks Hanko, which, by the way, CBS trying to censor lip shits and failing.

[B]

That happened every time they tried to censor. I think they only correctfully. Correctfully speaking of censoring, I should be. But I think they only correctly censored like one curse word. And every other time, at least the broadcast that I was watching on Paramount, like, the curse word was said and the word after was like the bleep happened before the curse. The curse happened and then it cut out afterwards. I was like, what's going on?

[A]

One was the opener when I think it was Megan, a stallion from V, which is. I'm sorry, that's. That's her name from now on. Megan, a stallion from the. Uh, she. I think she says bitch or something like that. And they tried to censor it, but it was like three words later. And same with Lipship. Jesse Tyler Fergus has lip shits. And it was like a second after the shits that they put in a. A dead air spot. But then I think because they failed, they just chose not to try again with any more of the lip shits. Or someone in that room genuinely didn't know what lip shits was. They thought they were talking about, you know, when your lips get the shits.

[B]

Speaking of when Gobi speaking of the eagle. Yeah, no. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, no, that is so true. Someone probably was like. Like someone. They said, she's mushrooms and hit the.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Or Is it Dylan Mulvaney? Is that the Dylan Mulvaney?

[B]

Right?

[A]

She was.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Having her do six for the intro to Sellback Tango. That was a really great Easter egg too, of just. Of that and Cedric the Entertainer. Just really fun, fun shit. And then I didn't.

[B]

I didn't get that Easter egg until you said it.

[A]

Well, you know, I think someone on the.

[B]

And I know that. I know that she was insane.

[A]

She sure was. I think someone on the Discord clocked at first that. Listen, did they do it on purpose? Probably. Did they think everyone, anyone was gonna notice? No, but it happened. They did the thing. Yeah, yeah, the thing with Pink doing all that jazz. Someone DM'd me and they were like, now there's a rumor that Pink is gonna go into Chicago. How do we make this not happen? I was like, first of all, we should be so lucky.

[B]

Yes, she'd be great.

[A]

Second of all, I genuinely don't think she's auditioning for Chicago. I genuinely think she's like, I'm the host, I need to be in things from time to time.

[B]

Yeah, agreed.

[A]

Yeah. And she was great. She could be a Roxy or a Velma, which, speaking of John, was Scavage. Do you remember what I pitched you nine months ago?

[B]

Oh, my God. Yes, I do.

[A]

We're gonna do it.

[B]

We are right now.

[A]

I'm gonna make it happen.

[B]

Is this a gorilla? A gorilla takeover. What's it called? An attack.

[A]

This is a gorilla attack. Look. Look at these arms, baby. It's a gorilla attack. John was scabbard. This is where I tell everyone.

[B]

Didn't mean to read you like that.

[A]

I tell everyone. And if you want it to happen, you need to make sure that you reach out to Jennifer Ashley Tepper on Instagram, Facebook, email her website, John Wiscavage. And I will be doing, in honor of the 30th anniversary of Chicago opening on Broadway in 1996, the revival. Anyway, we will be doing a concert. We'll be doing two back to back concerts of Chicago at 54 below. One performance, John will play Roxy, I will play Velma. The next performance, I will play Roxy, John will play Velma. And it is going to be a queer reimagining of Chicago. We're in talks with Bonnie Milligan to play Billy Flynn. We're in talks with. We are in talks with Kevin Cahoon to play Matron Mama Morton.

[B]

Yeah, we're going to hear first.

[A]

Yeah, we're making it happen. And who's going to be our Amos Hart? Who should we we reach out to?

[B]

Beth Leavel.

[A]

Fuck, yeah. I love that. And Michael Baress will be Fred Caseley again, because I just want that man to have an affair with me and then Mike can kill him.

[B]

Please. Oh, my gosh, no. I completely forgot about that. What's actually funny is shout out to a queer trans theater company here in New York that has been doing these kind of, like, parody shows called fagtasia. Have you heard of them? No. Oh, yeah. So they've been doing, like, they did a wicked one last year that was really, really fun. And a good friend of mine, Vi, her drag name is Vivacity, she has been doing them. And this past spring, I went and saw her star as Anus Hart in Chicago, which was so much fun. They haven't announced, at least, as far as I know, any other upcoming shows of parody musicals, but, you know, keep a lookout for fagtasia folks, because

[A]

they

[B]

kind of snatched our wigs a little bit. I know we had this idea we were texting, like, wastedly about it months ago, but I, of course, as I said earlier, forget everything. So I had completely forgotten about this until you said it. And, yeah, I saw a very, very lovely production of Chicago. So I guess we would be Hecogo.

[A]

Yeah. Or honestly, it's just Chicago. And it's just Chicago. And we're just. We're just going to do it because here's the thing. I want to do the Hot Honey Rag with you. Oh, yeah. I also feel like both of us would have really stellar interpretations of the Roxy monologue.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Didn't we. Didn't we rewrite. I think we wrote some of it in that text chain about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we did a lot of things. It's, you know, it's. It's. I. Listen, I love you dearly, and I don't want you to be a regular on this podcast. I just want you to be a guest. But I. I've. This is. This is Caller Daddy, and I'm Alex Cooper. But I will spread the love and the wealth with you, and we will perform together again.

[B]

I would love that. Yeah, I would love it as. As we get our shoulders into it for people. Not people who aren't lucky enough to watch me flop sweat all over this screen.

[A]

Maybe we'll make that the next Broadway Breakdown Live show. We'll do Broadway Breakdown Live, and it's just Chicago, and it's you, me, and a bunch of other assholes. And then in between songs, I'll give, like, a brief little fun fact about Chicago. And you'll be like, enough, Matt. Now I sing.

[B]

Yeah. I love it.

[A]

I love it too. This is what's gonna happen.

[B]

Call, call. Call Jenna Sheppard and call your state representative. Let's make this happen, guys.

[A]

It's gonna. We're gonna do it. It's gonna happen. Were you watching the Pluto Pre show, act one by any chance?

[B]

I was not. No. No, I. Did I miss anything fun?

[A]

Well, it was hosted by Laura Benanti and Titus Burgess.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

So there was. There were indeed some great one liners. Two that I.

[B]

There were.

[A]

The three that I remember from Benanti were. She said, she quoted. She made a quote about herself and she was like. As the great Laura Benanti once said, I'm like, fucking love it. And then she talked about. They were introducing Carrie Coon and someone else who had a very long name. And she said, his name is longer than my last. My first two marriages combined. And then someone shouted, too soon, Laura and true fat true facts. And then the other one was, they were doing. They were announcing choreography and she says, as a singer who moves. And then she points to Kelly o' Hara and she goes, kelly o' Hara knows what I'm talking about. And then this, this one is actually t. Someone. One of the gays in my room shouted. I love how she pretends they're friends. People said that about us too.

[B]

Are they not friends?

[A]

I have no intel on that. I imagined that they get along. There must have been a moment in their careers where they were going for the same stuff, but. Well, actually I know that there was because Kelly was supposed to do she loves me and then Laura did it, but that wasn't. Oh yeah, no one stole that from anyone. Dropped out. But yeah, I have. I have to imagine there was like a 10 year period where they were up for similar things.

[B]

Oh my God. Could you imagine Kelly o' Hara and the Wedding Singer? Just try to think of like Laura Bernantes oeuvre. Yeah.

[A]

Kelli o' Hara does the Wedding Singer. Well, I was about to say, like, oh my God, Laura Benanti and sweet smile is success. And then I went, well, actually that would have worked out really well.

[B]

Yeah, that would have been really fantastic. I mean, I'm sure Kelly, believe me, Kelly could do no wrong. Kelly is my Clara Kelly. Like a girl could do no wrong in my book. But there is something very funny about that. Just Kelli o' Hara in the Wedding Singer feels very, very funny to me.

[A]

Yeah. Kelli o' Hara doing someday when it's me Although Benancy will tell you she thought she was miscast in Wedding Singer, so maybe. Maybe Kelly would have gotten it correctly for her.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

I think. Actually, I think back in the day, Kelly would have been a. A decent Louise. The problem is that it's like, a young Kelli o' Hara looks like chicken.

[B]

So it's like, what do you do? Yeah.

[A]

Now.

[B]

No, I bet she would have as well. She probably would have. Like, truly. She would have eaten.

[A]

She, as the children would say.

[B]

As we say. I guess. Yeah.

[A]

But, like, now I want to see Benanti do Kiss Me, Kate. I want to see her. I hate men.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, I feel like. I feel like that's her general, like, lying subtext, period. Like, I love that. I love this. Yeah, we. Why are we not producers? Why aren't people giving us awesome. Why aren't people giving us money so we could put money into shows? We should be asking. Yeah.

[A]

I assume it's because what we want is too good and what we demand is too much from people.

[B]

Yeah, that's it.

[A]

This is. I mean, this is ultimately why certain people who, you know, give the least and. And at an arm's length and allow other people to, you know, enjoy themselves and. And go smooth brain sailing at the theater, they tend to sometimes get awards when they. When they maybe shouldn't. Couldn't. But that's okay. On that note, I want to ask, were there any particular wins? Oh, sorry. The other thing I was gonna say about Pluto is there was a moment where we called it the Singin in the Rain moment, the Lena Lamont moment, where the. The sink went off for a solid 10 minutes. It's like Benanti would be moving her mouth, but you'd hear Titus speaking because there was a delay.

[B]

Oh, I love that. Oh, I'm sad I missed that.

[A]

I know. I tried to get a good video of it, but again, I was in a room with a dozen gays. Everyone was shouting, just screaming, just screaming, screaming. I was like, that. I said I didn't want Mango, who did for choreography, and I'm like, guys, I just. I want a clip of this. But I couldn't. I couldn't. I'm sorry, Benanti. I just couldn't. So then on that note, any wins last night? That in particular, where you went, oh, I like that. That's a good win.

[B]

Um, yeah. I mean, I was really, really happy, like I said earlier, to see Joshua and Casey win. Um, I. I thought that their performances were both really, really fantastic. Um. Um, I mean, I loved this production of Death of a Salesman. I thought its flowers that it received last night were very, very well deserved. And in my mind there was like never any doubt that Laurie Metcalfe would win. And I thought that that win was. That was one where I just felt so, like, so right, so justified in my internal critique. Critique that I have because I. We haven't talked about the Death of a Salesman at all. So I don't know where you stand on it, but I loved it so much. Truly. I've seen that show so, so many times. My dad was a car salesman growing up. So there's something very, very personal to me about just the Death of a Salesman. And I thought that everyone in this production was extremely, extremely strong. I'm a now Christopher Abbott like Stan. Although I think that Alden deserves that tone through and through Alden. I really, really love their performance in Becky Shaw. And I've actually been in love with Alden since Hail Caesar. That like would fit a tour scene. Like, I mean I love, love him. And so I'm not knocking his Tony win at all. But I will say, you know, Christopher Abbott's Biff took my breath away. At least the performance that I saw, like he was just doing some really, really fantastic work up there. But similarly, as was Laurie Metcalfe and. And I walked away from that production going, Nathan Lane is great. There will never ever be any other Nathan Lane. And he is so fucking fantastic in the show. However, this Death of a Salesman to me was about Linda and Biff. I felt that the way that those characters went and kind of the way that they intertwined with. I almost said Billy, why can't I think of Willy? With Willy? I thought it was, was just the subtextually just a whole different landscape. And so I really, really was so thrilled. I'm thrilled anytime Laurie Metcalf gets her flowers because I think she is just. God, she's.

[A]

She's now a three time winner.

[B]

Yeah, sorry, she's. Go for it.

[A]

She's now twice won for a Joe Mantello joint, which is fun. So I saw Salesman during the second week of previews and I really, really, really liked it. I liked so much of it. I want, I'm trying to find a way to see it again because I want to see it now that the performances have congealed.

[B]

Settled. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Because lori was like 85% of the way there when I saw it. It was more. The biggest thing for her was that clearly was like the largest venue she's ever Played. So she was calculating what was too big and what wasn't. I was, like, watching. I was watching her in real time, like, sometimes make a choice and then kind of scale it back.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Like, she would. She would do something really big and then, like, slowly start to, like, not retreat, but, like, self edit as she was doing it. I don't know if she was aware of it, but I could see it happening. And then, like, Nathan Lane was kind of figuring out how much of himself to include in Willy, because there are certain just ways. Nathan Lane just has a Persona and a voice that he'll just say something sometimes and it will get a laugh. And so that's something I know he was also figuring out. And then Christopher Abbott, for me, really didn't come alive until, like, the last 30 minutes. And so it was a beautiful last 30. But I. I felt that Ben Allers was kind of. He had my attention more for the first half of the show instead of Christopher. So that's why I want to see it again, because I want to see how they've all settled. What I walked away thinking was like, jesus Christ, Joe Mantello has not been firing on all cylinders like this in years. Like, this is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That was a. That was a director win that I called from the start that I. Yeah. And is. And is so totally justified. The thing about also is, I would say probably for the third season in a row, for me, this has been the season of the plays of.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

[A]

We're just like, my favorite things have been either new works or revivals of plays, but, like, that's where it all has been. So for me, it was Salesman, it was Oedipus, it was Marjorie prime and Becky Shaw and Liberation and the Ballisters. And there's a lot about Giant that I admire. I think it's ultimately a clunky play, but I admire the messiness that it's going for that I don't think a lot of other plays are. And it is also wonderfully acted. I was so happy that. Yeah, very happy Aya Cash was nominated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That, like, the thing about Lori winning in her category is it's not just that she's great, but she's also the best in what is probably my favorite lineup of the year. And so, like, it's already just like, yes, you're winning, but, like, you're also winning it against, like, a murderer's row of nominees.

[B]

Titans.

[A]

Yeah. Like, the only thing that would have made it better is that if they could have found A way to get a tie in there so we'd have six. And Cynthia Nixon got in there for Marjorie prime because my God, was she astounding in that. But I, I'm happy that Alden won. I. I was glad that there was some wealth spread among other shows because ultimately salesmen just dominated so hard with. I think they won. They won revival, director worry, set, sound and lighting. So they won six.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And set with something that when we. So the other thing is that. And I talked about this when we recorded it, we recorded our final Tony predictions episode, like on a Tuesday or on a Tuesday or Sunday, can't remember which. And then I edited. Was released on Thursday. The Tony poll went out in the New York Times, like literally the next day. And I was talking to some people Friday and Saturday. And as I mentioned in the episode, I'm like, oh, some of my predict in that episode have now shifted. And when, when it came to salesman, there was talk of like, oh, will people struggle with the Scott Rudin of it all? And ultimately it was clear that everyone was willing to reward the production because the work was just so good. And I thought it was very smart. And I guarantee you that Scott Rudin told them to do this. None of them said his name in their speeches.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I guarantee you.

[A]

Yeah. Because he. When Nathan Lane did thank him, him at the drama desks, I don't know if you heard about this. There were some boos from the audience. Wow. Not the whole audience. It was like, I would say it was maybe like a couple of clusters.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But yeah, and he, he deflected. But I, I guarantee you that, you know, Rudin got back to him on that and he was like, we can't have that happen on national tv. And ultimately it's It. It is about the work and it isn't. Isn't about his ego. He has a Tony. He did a good job. He knows that he's been thanked enough times, like, if this is really what he wants to do, do. And it's going to be a slow process till people are really willing to bring him back as a human. It's like, great. Then just be the producer. Make sure the work is good and the people who do the good work can get their flowers. And they all did. And yeah, I'm, I'm. I'm convinced that Rudin told all of them, like, don't thank me. Just.

[B]

That makes a lot of sense to bh. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because like, Metcalf would have. She had the balls. She. She's even Said in interviews, like, everybody wanted to work with him again. Nobody wanted to be first. I was willing to be first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she makes no apologies for it. She would have thanked him on. On that stage. But Ult. I'm sure he gave that memo. But otherwise, yeah, it was pretty spread out in terms of. Just like every other show got one. Giant got one for Lithgow, which I did call. I figured they would want to give Giant something that was an easy one. Lithgow then gave a speech that was the length of the play. Alden winning, I thought was very correct for Becky Shaw, future actor in a play. Also really good category for me. It was kind of down to Alden and Rubin, but I did just. It felt like there was more heat behind Becky Shaw. It feels a little more like it's touching on something. Yeah. And then what was the other one? Oh, Leslie Manville. Leslie Manville winning for Oedipus.

[B]

I missed Oedipus, which is one of my biggest regrets, because I heard it was so phenomenal. And I heard that she especially, like, everyone was like, hands down, she's winning. Like, she's.

[A]

Yeah, she was absolutely winning. And it. I think if Oedipus were running right now, I think it would have been a big bit bigger competition for salesmen. The thing is, one of the main producers on Oedipus is also one of the head producers of Schmigadoon, which is Christine Schwartzman. Is that her name? Yeah. Christine Schwartzman.

[B]

Who.

[A]

Her husband and she are, like, two of our current president's top donors and, like, in his inner circle. And that's one of those things where. Where clearly, you know, darkness is around every corner on Broadway, much as we like to pretend otherwise. And it's why I don't really. That's why I really. One of the few things I hated in the ceremony was when they were like, this is Broadway. We're, like, one of the best places to speak truth to power. I'm like, not really. Not really. 30% of that room are Republicans who probably are going to go to, like, the Freedom Maga rally on July 4th. And, you know, that's their right and all. But, like, let's not act like we are a specialized group. Like, we. We. We all have danced with the devil. There were people who thanked and there were people who thanked. People in their speeches were like. I sat there going, I've spoken to you, and I've heard you speak such shit about this person. You didn't have to call them out on this. On this speech, the fact that you did is you playing the game. Everyone's playing a little bit of a game.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Yeah, we have.

[B]

Because at the end of the day, like, Broadway is a capitalist venture. You know, it is capitalism. And the ties of this country with capitalism and fascism are just continuing to just lovely merge and dovetail into each other. So much. So I. Yeah, I actually didn't know about the whole Trump donor thing until, you know, I saw online and I had a moment where I was like, oh, God, like, that makes me feel sick. But at the same time, and again, this is not me excusing and being

[A]

like, oh, gosh, like, well, oopsie daisy, there it is.

[B]

But at the same time, you know, I think that, listen, everyone in this day and age is culpable to a certain extent every time we sign on to Facebook or Instagram or all these other things that are literally bringing about the downfall of society and, like, bringing about, you know, a playing field where fascism can continue to breed through our isolationism and our homogenous. Our homogenization. You know, it's. We live in such sticky, sticky times that. That also loves to completely get rid of the gray area. And with Broadway being a capitalist venture and art needing money from people to reach more people, it lives in the gray area. It just does. So much of it does. And it's a really hard pill to swallow. I don't like it. I know you don't like it,

[A]

but I think that's why, for me and I, I feel that the best Broadway has to offer is usually when it gives you something creative and artful and special and specific that can tie into commercialism of this sort of, we tricked you, we gave you something that's entertaining and worth your time. But there's also something here. And I find too much stuff is either too far in one direction or too far in the other direction.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

And I also think that going to say, see a show is kind of like the least you can do when it comes to, quote, unquote, the work. Then there becomes another level to that. And we, you know, me, I am not a person who likes to say, vote for this thing because it's important. I think that's a very terrible mentality. Vote for the thing you think is good. But when you start. But if you want to have the conversation then of, well, what is the thing? We need to be uplifting right now. This is actually where I'm going to pivot for myself, where I am disappointed the Jellicoe Ball lost Revival A. Because I think it is just the better production than this current production of Ragtime. But then when people bring up, well, it's really important to have a show like Ragtime right now, I go, why? What is it about the show that you think makes it important to right now other than the fact that and reminds you that 120 years later, we haven't come much farther? A little bit, but not much. There's a lot of, of political holes you can poke in that show. But more importantly, I go, if we want to talk about what's important, you know, black queer, trans voices also being silenced, being, you know, shunned, being swept under the rug. And we have a production that is elevating those voices and giving them joy and celebration. And I think that's something to acknowledge.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But so this is where I'm going to say my little thing about Lind getting cut off from her speech. Because ultimately I, I was sticking to my guns pretty much until the end that Jellicoe Ball was going to win. The New York Times article came out the day after we released our predictions episode and they said, revival is really close. It's really too close to call it right now. Maybe there's an edge to Jellicoe Ball. And I remember reading that going, oh, fuck. Because I've said in the past, the road vote and the Tony voting body, it's small, it's like 10% of the, of the body. And they only really matter when it's a close range race. And you could argue, well, some road voters will vote for the thing that needs the Tony win, because then they can sell it that there are some shows that they won't need help selling. Like people say, oh, the road voters voted for Schmigadoon. I'm sure the road voters were like, I can sell schmigadoon in my sleep. I'm gonna need help selling two strangers. Jellicoe Ballad was not announced to do any kind of national tour. Rent Ragtime was. And with that incentive, I would imagine that the road voters probably all went to Ragtime, which is just like you just need 51 of them to vote for it. And that's. And that's what gets you the win. And I say that because with Jellicoe Ball winning director and choreography and costumes, like, clearly there was a love of the craft and the design of that. But then I would also argue that people voting for this production of Ragtime because you saw it online, a lot of people going, I can't vote for Jellicoe Ball. Cats isn't as good a musical as Ragtime Time. And the thing is that people voting for Ragtime because they like what Lynn, Steve, and Terrence did is not what that award is for. And that was made very clear when they. When they won revival and Lear Debess ran to that stage like, she just came from Barry's boot camp, grabbed that money mic and spoke for however long she spoke. Think Stephen Flaherty got, like, three words in. And then Lynn tried to come in, and she got cut off. And I go, this is representative of what you voted for. Lynn and Steve do not get this award. Lear Debessonet gets this award. The writers don't get the revival, Tony unless it's a classics ruling. So people voting for this production of Ragtime because they love Ragtime, not necessarily the production. I go, well, you didn't. You didn't vote for the musical. You voted for Lear. So.

[B]

So that's.

[A]

Lyn doesn't get to speak. That's. That's. That is what you voted for. It's a harsh truth, but it is the truth. Now, do I think that Lynn and Steve should have that Tony overlear of, like, you're welcome. You won because of us? Absolutely. But that is not how the rules go. Jonathan, with Scavage, I didn't know that.

[B]

So they truly don't get a Tony award.

[A]

The writers only get the award when it's a classics ruling. So, like, if Men have no Importance came to Broadway, that would have been a revival nomination under a classics ruling, and they would have gotten an award for that.

[B]

What's a classics ruling? I have no idea when a show

[A]

is deemed a revival, but it's actually never been on Broadway before.

[B]

Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Gotcha. Gotcha.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because there's been a ton of those. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. That was really first implemented when Assassins was on Broadway because that was deemed a revival, and they called it the classics rule. With Assassins, part of it is how much time has passed between the original production and now. Is this a remount of the original? Is this a new production? Is it being licensed, things like that?

[B]

Gotcha. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, I was fully torn, as I feel like so many people were. And I truly thought it also, like, because I do love the show Ragtime and I do hate the show Cats. Like, it's just. It's how I am, but at the same time, and, you know, I was talking to just so many of my close friends, too, and, you know, so many different actors of color. And they also just felt so strongly, rightfully so, about black trauma versus black joy. And, you know, and I think that Cats very easily should have and could have won that, Tony. It's the way the cookie crumbled. One thing we haven't talked about yet, which I was reminded as we were talking about Cats, was that we actually had and about like, you know, Broadway's inclusivity and everything, which is, yes, we are a very inclusive people. But in my mind, when it came out that Cats won for the first openly trans costume, like, first openly transition, I was like, for Queen Jean, I was like, what? Like, like in my brain, I was like, no, that's not true. And I was like, but wait, I. I guess that is true. Yeah. Like, that's crazy. I mean. And again. And it should be celebrated through and through, but it was. It was a moment where again, like, you have to look at your community for a second and be like, oh, yeah, we're doing the great work. And then you're kind of faced with the fact and you're like, have we been. Have we. Have we been celebrating all the people that we say we are celebrating enough?

[A]

I would argue no, the. And again, I'm not some. Again, I'm not somebody who's going, this is important. We gotta do xyz. I think we should always be moving forward and whatnot. But I think that it actually is kind of indicative of where we're at. Where you go online and read people saying, you know, you're. You're racist for not, you know, wanting to vote for Ragtime. Ragtime is a show with an all white writing team based on a novel by a white man with an almost all white production team. Like, that's not. It is a show that brings a lot of people joy and emotion and release. And I understand that, but it's such a. To talk about the diversity dynamics of Ragtime is from such a shallow perspective because they're purely looking at the actors and nothing else backstage, behind the scenes. And even with the actors. It's literally just. It's a binary. For a group of folks who claim to really understand the fluidity of gender, it's crazy that they don't understand the fluidity of diversity in other realms.

[B]

Oh, completely.

[A]

And there's. And I'm not perfect. I think the. I mean, I am, but not in this respect. But what I mean is that I think to be a proper ally, you have to acknowledge that you fuck up all the time. Oh, yeah, you have plenty of Blind spots and to. And to listen and to always try to go beyond what you think is enough and. And challenge what you think is your own ideal of acceptance and equilibrium. Because there's someone who's going to give you a piece of information that's going to challenge what you always think. Thought you knew what was right. And I've made it a point when it comes to a lot of these shows and representation and celebration and whatnot. Like, I've spoken to so many people from different walks of life than my own, but we all share the common love of theater and of good art. And, I mean, I think it also comes from the fact of, like, if something's just, like, too good to deny, nobody cares. But when it become. But when it becomes a debate and then we're talking about. About, like, political motivations behind voting, it's like, well, then what is.

[B]

What.

[A]

What do you think is actually a progressive choice? And. And that becomes its own rabbit hole that I don't desire really to go down today between you and I, John, because we're both just so incredibly diverse that I think that.

[B]

Oh, I was just gonna say. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

This podcast would just explode.

[B]

Yeah. Two more. Two more white people just talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, come on. I think we should talk about Flower Drum Song next And.

[B]

And K Pop and.

[A]

Yeah, K Pop and Em Butterfly and. And in the Heights and the Cape, man. But. Yeah, but do you know what I'm talking about? I feel like I'm. Okay, great.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes I feel like I'm spouting nonsense, but you've known me a long time, so you know what the nonsense means. But I want to make sure that it makes sense to everyone else.

[B]

I was gonna say, like, sometimes you feel like you're spouting nonsense.

[A]

I will punch you into vagina.

[B]

I prefer a donkey punch. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[A]

Thank you so much. What a nice little donkey punch we got there.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, we also. In our room, I'm now going back to a random thing, but I just went back to thinking about the Accords line number, and all of us were just going, she looks beautiful. It was so Liz Lemon. My God, you looked beautiful.

[B]

It was very, very gorgeous gowns. Beautiful, gorgeous gowns.

[A]

And just going, why her? And why this now?

[B]

Yeah, it was interesting and beautiful voice. She just. That's the thing. It's like she. She was. She was. She's always great. She's always great. Yeah. She's never. She brings it to every ball, literally.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I will also say a solid In Memoriam. I thought it was a good song choice. Good rendition by Leslie.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Leslie. Yeah, truly. Like, I'm not a big Rent fan, but that song does always kind of just, like, really hits me in the heart. Song.

[A]

Is it because.

[B]

Song at Art Center. And. Yeah. What were you.

[A]

I said, do you hate Rent because you think that AIDS is a conspiracy?

[B]

Well, something has to be real for it to be a conspiracy, doesn't it?

[A]

Thank you. This is the dynamic that people have been missing with us, and this is what you can expect when we do Broadway Breakdown live at Chicago.

[B]

Yeah. No, no, I hate Reddit because I hate gay people. But I think that.

[A]

Yeah, but that's just being a gay person person.

[B]

Literally. No, but no, I thought that In Memoriam was quite beautiful. And, yeah, Leslie just sang House Down Boots, Mama Diva Tea.

[A]

I also appreciated that they muted the audience. I really liked that.

[B]

Yes, I thought that, too. I was like, oh, thank God. Because it's so awkward. It's so awkward. Could you imagine when we die and just how awkward it's going to be? The difference between.

[A]

I think it's important for when you die, your family, your children, and your children's children can hear on an award show whether your life matters mattered or not be based on if. If you got applause during the In Memoriam, because the truth is that people aren't applauding because they go, oh, yes, Legend. We should really make a moment for this. It's people whose names they recognize.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's all it is. You're making their death about you now. No, no, we're honoring them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beverly. Beverly. Leslie. This is not. This is not about whether you saw them in that show that one time. This is about everyone just paying respects. Because when everyone's alive, we go, every person in theater matters. And then the In Memoriam tells you otherwise. Oh, you were a stagehand. We don't applaud that. Oh, you were that. You were the third violinist in the orchestra for 20 years. I.

[B]

No, honey, I'm not clapping for you. My hands are raw.

[A]

No, you were the sixth Alphabet in Chicago that gets my applause.

[B]

The sixth. Oh, I thought you meant In Chicago, the musical, not Chicago. When it was running in Chicago, and I was like, isn't that having a stroke? Is it finally happening? Have we been talking long enough in this podcast, episodes that his brain is just completely broken?

[A]

Completely gone to shit?

[B]

Completely, Completely. Yeah. The titular role in Chicago, Elphaba.

[A]

It's the titular role on Everybody's lips.

[B]

It's gonna be

[A]

elfie. That's what it is.

[B]

Oh, I actually I did write some other notes that I haven't even like talked about at all. But I did remember I wrote very something about specifically pink. Really just rocking the Cynthia Erivo. Or as Bernadette Peters said last night on the red carpet, Cynthia Erivio. Mother, Mother. Oh God. First off, I've already sweated. Just think about it again. It's making me sweat some more.

[A]

First of all, can we speak about Bernadette Peters being maybe the most covered up she's been since Sunday in the park with George?

[B]

The most covered up. But also like the push up bra was. There was a listen, I'm not here to objectify this woman, but I'm about to objectify this gorgeous, gorgeous woman. There was a moment where there was a camera shot and like I believe her tit was touching her chin. And I like, I'm not a boob gay. And I was like, that is hot. Like she was covered up, but she still looked fucking hot.

[A]

She was ready to do the Tell Me Ernest reprise from Death of a

[B]

Session with the bongo. Completely. Oh my God, yes. No, completely. And I also, I was just so grateful, so, so grateful that we, we didn't even just get a second.

[A]

And the winner is Kinky Boots moments.

[B]

We got a whole three act play of Bernadette Peters struggling to opening an envelope for schmigadoon and then having to say schmagadoon like, like, like it was just like the gay gods were looking out on us last night for that. But I, I, I, I started this gay rant talking about Pinks. Just I thought, go. Gorgeous rendition of the Elphaba riff. Cynthia Erivo Arrivio's Elphaba riff. And also one other note that I did write last night was that I do have the kind of autism where when someone sings a very high note randomly out of nowhere a la when Ariana Nabose made her sing a high note, I have to know what that note is. And so if anyone else needs to know what note it was, it was

[A]

an E5 fan fuckantastic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we now know Pink can sing rainbow high.

[B]

Good for her. And it was, it was a chesty mix.

[A]

Also, also Pink's doing that Elphable riff while holding Neil Patrick Harris between her thighs, which how many of us can say that?

[B]

I mean, that's pride, honey. That's, it's pride month, honey.

[A]

Now we know what he and David Burka are like during Pride month, honey. Also, speaking of Neil Patrick Harris, the Paddington Easter egg.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I have. I very have, purposely, Honestly, I know you love Paddington. I am very excited for it. And when I'm very, very excited for something, I don't. I don't look into it anymore, and I want to be, like, fully surprised. Am I making this up? I thought you, like, love Paddington.

[A]

Am I?

[B]

I love. I love.

[A]

I love Paddington. John, are you. Are you. Are you sure you're talking about me? Yes, I love Paddington.

[B]

That's what I thought. I was like, stop gaslighting me.

[A]

No, I thought I was trying to be cheeky. I thought it was. It's so obvious. Brit. Yes, I'm a cheeky little. No, it's. I won't say anything other than it's such a delightful show.

[B]

I can't wait.

[A]

People have asked, like, oh, is it too British? I go. I say, no. I was talking to somebody where, like,

[B]

if I were to.

[A]

If they were to ask if they were to come to me, the drama turd, and they said, it's either the drama turd or the drama dude. And they said, matthew, what do we do? I say, you have a couple of jokes that rely on people knowing the neighborhoods of London.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I would just tweak those so audiences can maybe understand what the punchline is or just cut them. That's when I. When I say too British, that's what I mean. Where something that's like, local, specific.

[B]

Yeah. You know when they're like, charing crossings. What?

[A]

Yeah. And everyone in the audience is like,

[B]

oh, everyone knows that it's crossings that happens. Yeah.

[A]

It's the. It's the funny. Because it's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Local, specific shit. Yeah. But otherwise, it's just so delightful. And I won't say anymore, but, yeah, that was like a soft Easter egg launch of Paddington Announc to Broadway, where he comes out with the Paddington Bear and sings. And pink is like, maybe next season. And because the truth is that I was. I was told that they were going to announce their transfer this past week, but maybe they're going to now announce it this week.

[B]

Wait, they didn't already?

[A]

They. No, they. They. There was a leak where Sonya Friedman at the Oliviers was like, we plan to. And everyone was. Was going, sonia, you. You went off script. You weren't supposed to say that yet, but it's like, it's. It's the biggest, biggest, worst kept secret right now.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

They're going. They're going to the Hirschfeld. It's happening. Just like, calm down everybody.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It was like when Audra was doing Gypsy and everyone's like, you're doing Gypsy, right? She's like, no,

[A]

no. Part of you wonders if Casey Levy is doing the same thing with I was lit.

[B]

I. I would bet if she was not already doing that, it's definitely happening. I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe she took a little time off because, I mean, girl is booked and blessed has not stopped working. Dear God. And now that she has her well deserved Tony. But I literally was talking to a homosexual via text as we were watching and he was like, he's like, it's happening. He's like, next to normal's happening. I was like, yeah, we know. We know what's happening.

[A]

Yeah. The truth is that I don't. I have no confirmation of it. She keeps saying it's not happening. People in the know keep saying, oh, it was going to, but they canceled it. I, I think, I still think it's happening. Maybe not this coming season because we have so many revivals.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like, I don't know. Just do it. Do it a year from now. Come in like right after the Tonys of next season. Run from the summer through the fall. Casey will win another Tony if the gods are good to her. But if not, she already has one. And yeah, it's a good production too. And she's great in it. I think it's still the best casting of her to date her.

[B]

And I haven't watched the pro shot because again, kind of it's like if I feel like something's coming and I feel it in the winds, I'm like, I want to experience it live.

[A]

I feel that.

[B]

But yeah. Anything else, Tony?

[A]

I. I'm trying to think. Talked about my ragtime shit. Talked about the schmingadoon shit. Oh, I mean, well, how so how do you feel about Schmig? First of all, okay. Also, wait, other thing. Shoshana Bean finally has her Tony award and she began by acknowledging Paul Alexander Nolan. That was all very correct. Well done, mother. I also liked who said this? Was this. Oh, Leslie Manville. Would someone like to write a play for five women? I thought that was nice.

[B]

I thought that was very funny as well. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, the best presenters of the evening. Cola Scola and Maya Rudolph.

[B]

Oh my God. How could we forget about them? Truly? I mean, where, where is, where is their TV show? Where. Where's their buddy comedy? Truly. So much fun. So funny. They are both just two. Was that self sensitive?

[A]

That was. That was the phone.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I was like, ignore her.

[B]

Oh, God. No, I, I, I was, I was totaling my little gay taint off. Truly.

[A]

Yeah, no, it was. I just, I, I want to memorize exactly every word they said because it was just too good.

[B]

The.

[A]

No, the Greek tragedy Oedipus, which asks the question, can women really have it all? Yeah, they can. I have an SUV and a horse. But enough about my love life. She goes too far.

[B]

It's. I do have one issue surrounding the cola of last night, which is that I saw an article somewhere that was like, cola scola stuns and beautiful ibuprofen pink outfit. And I had a, again, a break from reality where I was like, ibuprofen isn't pink. Right. That's Pepto Bismol.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Thank you.

[A]

It was what it was.

[B]

That's the only issue I had with it, was that someone was reporting, and I was like, are they.

[A]

Because that's how. That's what Cole said on the red carpet.

[B]

They mentioned the outfit, and Cole said,

[A]

said a name that I don't think exists, and then said. And I wanted it in a stunning ibuprofen pink.

[B]

And.

[A]

Or there's this. Or still, like, in my favorite color ibuprofen. Something like that. So it was, it was more of a cold, you know, humor.

[B]

All right, well, I didn't mean to drag them. Maybe, Maybe they are colorblind. But I, I, I, I swear that was the only thing that I saw in a title somewhere of an article or some blurb or something. And I, I didn't realize it was a reference to something they had said.

[A]

That slut. Anyway. But, yeah, but also Cole saying, I'm giving you Dorothy Loudon. And I'm going, no, honey, you're giving Christine Baranski.

[B]

Christine Baranski and that Dolly Parton a musical. She's about to shut down your local church mini mall. What was she trying to shut down? I don't remember. Oh, and she had brain cancer and

[A]

Christmas on the Square.

[B]

Yeah, she's trying to shut down the whole town.

[A]

She's got to get out of this town. Ain't no reason to wait around.

[B]

But.

[A]

So it's not Christmas yet. I can't talk about that movie yet. Um, yeah, and there's There was a, There was a clip of Cole applauding after Ali's speech that my whole room thought was just so funny. They're like, that's going to be a new meme. It's literally just Cole applauding. But I think the Face kind of was giving Christine Baranski like, yes, of course. Because I just feel like Cole's always

[B]

rich, waspy white woman. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think Cole's always just on whenever they're. And they kind of have to when they're around people. But yeah, I just, I just love, I loved it. Courage, bravery, tuberculosis. These are all words. Yes, Maya, they are all words. It's just so fun. So fun. So good. Loved it. Great. Presenters was glad that Kelly was having her fun. She and Rose Byrne sitting together having finished their last performance of Fallen Angels. Probably drunk as they should be.

[B]

Listen, I hope they did a lot of drunk character work and I hope they continue to do a lot of drunk character work after that show.

[A]

My last couple things. Anna Wintour was there. Anna. Anna Wintour was there. And yet, uh, a lot of women I thought were not dressed well.

[B]

Anna Wintour was there and there was a moment where they shot to her. I think it was after the cat's Jellicoe ball performance and she was next to Webby's. She was Sir Webber, like holding the meow cat sign and the shady camera operator literally made it so that you could not see her face. I, I don't know if you caught that, but literally the direction they had it, it was just a, it was a cat's and she was not purposely like holding it like this, but from the angle you cannot see her. And I was like, oh, she pissed off some cameraman.

[A]

I would say somebody wasn't happy with the Devil Wears Prada sequel. Oh, somebody thought win. Yeah, I didn't see Win. No, you didn't see it. Somebody said Wintour had too much influence on this one. It's, it's fine. It's okay.

[B]

Well, you know what they say. Another Win tour in a summer town. Oh, God.

[A]

Yak don't come back. Have you seen Obsession yet, John?

[B]

No, it's. I, so I've only very recently gotten to horror in the last couple years hover. I trained with a mid Atlantic diet like that Transatlantic planet.

[A]

I only just got into Hara Hara,

[B]

but I, I, it's been on my list. It's, it's. I've many, many people have told me I should see it and I would enjoy it a lot. So I, I've not seen it. But it's, it's, it's there somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, I just, I keep thinking about movies like that and, and sinners and get out and, and you know, things like that where these, these such interesting genre bending films that are entertaining but also do have like a little meat on the bone and something to say about them. And they're capturing this moment in the zeitgeist that, you know, the public is responding to. And I just wish that we had more of that shit on Broadway. I know it's tricky. Yeah, I know it's tricky. But like, I don't know, there are moments where we get a strange loop on Broadway. And yes, you and I are technically speaking the offstage villains of that show. But I loved it dearly.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

And even things that are like simple and sweet and weird and delightful, like Kimberly Akimbo, I want more musicals that have like a distinct personality and identity that I don't know, can carve out in their own niche and say something while also being an entertainment.

[B]

Well, and I think the last couple years, you know, as we talked a little bit earlier, the, that there are not a lot of shows are doing this, but there are these little pop ups of these underground hits not just on Broadway, but also otherwise too with like, you know, like, you know, oh, Mary was just suddenly such a pop up supposedly just like a real quick thing and now it's become such a sensation. Same with Titanique where hopefully these producers are not just realizing that like, oh, there is a market for this but like there is a need for the underground voices. The quietest voice in the room to. People want to hear it. People love to go see be, you know, a movie star star in a Broadway play. But also, you know, part of the success of Heated Rivalry was that it was like two unknowns, you know, what am I getting at here? No, no, no, but like we're gonna

[A]

replace in the, that's what we're announcing.

[B]

Yeah, we're announcing that. Yeah.

[A]

Have you seen that yet, by the way?

[B]

No, I cannot wait.

[A]

I just done this past weekend. It's, it's so much better than it has any fucking right to be.

[B]

I believe it. I, I cannot wait. But, but yes, I, I, I do hope that as you were saying that these Broadway. I do feel that plays a bit more, but especially like are a bit more successful. So I am saying a bit more specifically musical theater are able to reflect back in a way that these movies are doing in a way that is inventive and new and yeah, and again, not that this season was a complete failure at that, but there were only six new musicals that opened. Yeah, right. Yeah, six. And a lot of them are, let's see, one, two, three. At least three of them are based on entities that are already movies Or TV shows. Right.

[A]

Lost Boys, Titanic, Queen of Versailles were

[B]

all based off of properties and beaches. Beaches, which is a book.

[A]

A book, yeah.

[B]

And a film. Yeah.

[A]

She make a dune based off of a TV show. Two Strangers of the only original. Complete original, yeah. Which I don't mind necessarily so much as just doing something interesting with your source material. But no, I think that we've had some plays in the last couple of years actually capture a little something like oh, Mary is capturing the. The joy and hilarity we need while also being this own kind of queer, campy like John Waters esque thing. John Proctor is the villain. Last year very much tapped into something that people more wanted. Like that was something where I think that I had like, I had a couple of issues with that play. Nothing that took away from my enjoyment of it. Just, you know, some turns in the third act that I thought were like a little whatever. But overall I really enjoyed it. And more importantly, how it reached its audiences was the kind. With the kind of fervor that it did, I think is so special and proves that like Kimberly Bellflower should be listened to more and should have more writing out there getting done. And you know, Brandon Jacobs Jenkins is somebody who's like becoming a household name finally, which is great. And I think that. And even these classics revivals like Becky Shaw, which has never been on Broadway before, but here we are. You know, Becky Shaw really kind of tapped into something for people now of. Of the. Of just like the viciousness of the human condition and, and how sometimes like your most well meaning people are like the biggest messes in your life and the people who have the most together, the biggest assholes. And you like want to a little bit of what the other one has. But I digress. Yeah, I think that's all really fun, fascinating, cool stuff. And I would love to have more of it and I would love it if it translated to the musicals because there was a time when musicals did that frequently. Yeah, I think there's just so much money on the line now. Things get developed for so long.

[B]

Right. But I mean. And I'm realizing in real time too, we didn't really talk about liberation. And part of that's on me. I missed it. I was like out of town for the run. And I always. I have a play actually on my desk. Like I want to read, read it. And I feel like from what I've gathered that Liberation is another one of those plays where like, you know, it. It was really tying together what's going on now with another Time period with the 70s. And so, you know, I don't want to seem like, oh, we're not giving it its flowers. I'm just gonna say I. I didn't. I was not able to catch it, but, yeah, I. Did you see it? I'm assuming.

[A]

I saw every. I saw everything this season.

[B]

Liberation. Yeah.

[A]

I. I think this is. I think, my third year in a row seeing everything. I found the Balusters to be a bit more of a tidy play. Like, I thought that was a little more well constructed, and I appreciated its satirical tone. But Liberation is capturing the essence of something that I think a lot of us should hear. And I actually appreciate how messy Liberation is as a play. Kind of intentionally so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, best wall is there's a lot of around and finding out with the fourth wall and timelines. Like, she's. She's kind of like, don't tell me you know how to write this. I'm writing stream of consciousness because I want to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. And I think that is ultimately what makes Liberation as powerful and moving as it is, because I think it's. This, isn't. I. My mind is all over the place. I think if Liberation had the tidiness of the Balusters, it would seem more manipulative. But because Liberation ultimately is coming from a more earnest, angry and confused place, that messiness turns into humanity.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

Whereas the Balusters, because it is a light satire that wants. That is showcasing a lot of reality through a lens that can be entertainment. The tidiness of that play kind of is, in a sense, necessity.

[B]

Yeah. And I loved the Ballisters. I loved it. Love, love, love.

[A]

I sure did, too.

[B]

Yeah. But, yeah, no, I'm sad that I missed Liberation, but I see what you are saying by all this. But it's good.

[A]

Listen, you'll see it at some point, and you can always go to the library. And. I mean, listen, there was a lot of female nudity, and I know that terrifies you, and you just got into horror, so. Well, it's because I see it every day when I look in the mirror.

[B]

I go, oh, where's that naked lady there? Who's.

[A]

Who's that woman? I know, I know. Or who is that girl I. I see staring straight. Staring at me straight in quotation marks. Stack at me. All right. Well, John, this has been delightful. I think we've covered just about everything or everything that's worth covering.

[B]

I think so, too. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

We mentioned Bernadette Peters dress. We mentioned Cola Scola's Words.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

That's theater, baby.

[A]

That's all that she wrote. So what can. Where can people find you if you want them to find you? And is there anything they can expect to catch you in this summer?

[B]

No, that's.

[A]

John, can they catch you in by the end of the summer?

[B]

Our 54 below hicago. Chicago. Chicago. But don't come find me for your own. For your own benefit, please. I. I don't want to find me.

[A]

No, I keep trying to. I keep trying to lose John's number, but then I keep finding it.

[B]

Let the dead bitch stay buried, you know?

[A]

Know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not. Not. Wake up, dead man. Stay down, dead man.

[B]

Literally. And I. I am notoriously Glenn Close's body double. So

[A]

what I would give for you. I mean, listen, I've never seen you and Glenn in the same place.

[B]

So not a coincidence. Not a coincidence. Oh, no. My light. Perfect timing. My light just went out. So I guess. I guess it's time.

[A]

It is time. All right, well, John, we close out every episode with a big Broadway day diva. Who would you like to close us out with today?

[B]

Oh, gosh. I mean, I feel. Should we do Casey to. To celebrate her win or have you recently done her or.

[A]

I think I've recently done her.

[B]

What about Shosh? Sure, we can do Shosh.

[A]

I think I did Shosh rather recently as well, but I don't. I think. No, but I think. Well, just because with Tony's.

[B]

What about Bernie? What about Bernadette? Yeah, let's do Bernadette.

[A]

Yeah, it's not a John Wiscavage episode without a little Bernadette Peters.

[B]

Of course. Of course.

[A]

Okay, well, so, guys, thank you so much for listening. If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Hoplik. Usual spelling. Join the discord. Join the substack, if you so choose. We're going to take the rest of the week off, and so we'll see you next week, and we're going to try to wrap up the rest of our deep dives, and then we're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to have a backstage Pass miniseries on Seussical Woo with a bunch of original cast members, people on the production team. It's going to be a really good series, and then we got some announcements about the future of the podcast coming up. So, yeah, stick around and find out all about that stuff.

[B]

Stuff.

[A]

All right, take it away, Bernie.

[B]

Bye.