A GENTLEMAN'S GUIDE TO LOVE AND MURDER w/ Elliot and Harry White

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: A GENTLEMAN'S GUIDE TO LOVE AND MURDER with Elliot and Harry White

Introduction

In the November 21, 2024 episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik welcomes theatrical entrepreneurs Elliot and Harry White from Foster Cat Productions. The focus of the episode is the acclaimed musical A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder. Skipping the initial advertisements and introductions, the conversation dives deep into the show's nuances, legacy, and its place within Broadway history.

Personal Connections to A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder

Ariana Grande shares her early exposure to Broadway, recounting how her obsession with the show began at age 13 after seeing it instead of Bridges of Madison County due to her grandmother's insistence. She humorously reflects on her teenage disappointment upon learning that Jefferson Mays' understudy performed in her absence ([03:48]-[04:35]).

Cynthia Erivo echoes similar sentiments, discussing the show's lasting impact despite initial underwhelming personal engagements ([05:01]-[05:45]).

Analysis of A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder

Matt Koplik expresses his admiration for the show's unique musical score, highlighting "Horrible Woman" as a standout piece ([15:05]-[15:33]). Ariana Grande praises Eddie Corbich's distinctive voice, noting his versatility and memorable performances in other roles ([15:37]-[17:05]).

Cynthia Erivo delves into character dynamics, particularly the relationship between Sibella and Monty Navarro. She describes Sibella as cunning and manipulative, contrasting Monty's initially passive nature ([19:00]-[22:28]). Ariana adds that the show's intimate staging and character-driven humor kept her engaged, despite early pacing issues ([09:29]-[10:05], [17:40]-[22:28]).

Performance and Staging

Jefferson Mays' portrayal of Monty Navarro is a focal point of discussion. Both hosts appreciate his ability to balance comedic and dramatic elements, noting his limited stage time yet significant impact ([08:25]-[09:02], [20:23]-[22:28]). The staging, directed by Darko Tresnik, receives praise for its Edwardian atmosphere and clever use of space to enhance the narrative ([18:10]-[19:00]).

Legacy and Impact

The conversation shifts to the show's success strategy, particularly its persistence through financial challenges to achieve Tony nominations. Matt Koplik contrasts this with subsequent shows that failed to replicate the formula, emphasizing the unique conditions that favored A Gentleman's Guide ([23:00]-[25:45], [34:04]-[35:47]).

Cynthia Erivo compares the show's legacy to other musicals like Spamalot and Little Shop of Horrors, discussing how critical acclaim and award recognition can influence a show's longevity and reputation ([44:00]-[50:00]).

Tony Awards Discussion

The hosts analyze why A Gentleman's Guide succeeded at the Tonys, attributing it to strong performances, a cohesive creative team, and strategic timing. They debate the score's recognition over Bridges of Madison County, with Ariana sharing her disappointment and Cynthia explaining the nuanced voting dynamics ([84:16]-[95:00]).

Elliot and Harry White contribute insights on how the show's marketing and critical reception were meticulously managed to maximize award potential, contrasting it with other productions that failed to sustain momentum post-Nominations ([77:57]-[85:27], [95:03]-[100:08]).

Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, the guests reflect on their personal theater experiences and upcoming productions. Ariana Grande expresses enthusiasm for future shows like Sunset Boulevard, while Cynthia Erivo emphasizes the importance of maintaining a show's legacy through continued discussion and appreciation ([140:00]-[147:20]).

Notable Quotes

• Matt Koplik ([15:05]): "I like that Horrible Woman. It's a beautiful song."
• Ariana Grande ([03:48]): "We got tickets to see and then listen to the cast every day until a deep hole of obsession..."
• Cynthia Erivo ([22:05]): "Phoebe is sort of a plaything, enjoying having Monty around without genuine affection."
• Matt Koplik ([34:05]): "Cynthia Erivo is a freak."

Conclusion

This episode of Broadway Breakdown offers an in-depth exploration of A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, blending personal anecdotes with critical analysis. Elliot and Harry White provide valuable perspectives on the show's production and legacy, making it a must-listen for theater enthusiasts looking to understand the intricacies behind Broadway's enduring successes.

Transcript

[Ariana Grande]

Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening.

[Cynthia Erivo]

To the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit BPM FM to discover more. What's the best time of day to get a deal? All day with Jack in the box's all day big deal meal. You get to choose from four entrees like the supreme croissant and five tasty sides, plus a drink starting at $5. So hurry in or take your time. You've got all at Jack, every bite's a big deal. I've decided to marry you. I've decided to marry you. I've decided, though Henry's gone that life goes on before me I have thoroughly thought it through and the man that I want is you. Though it's true there are quite a few who strongly disagree Nonetheless I will marry you. I confess that I'm frightened too but unless I am wrong you long for love is much as I. This is quite a conventional I'll admit But why should that matter? A wit and if you do not say yes at once I think I'll die. Hello all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history un legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Grab Back and it is covering shows that you all submitted and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous but most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today are a bunch of theatrical entrepreneurs. They are directors, they are producers, they are the founders of the Foster Cat productions. Please welcome to the podcast, Elliot and Harry White. Hello, gentlemen.

[Ariana Grande]

Hey, thanks for having us.

[Matt Koplik]

How's it going?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was very disappointed, Harry, that you were not related to Stanford White. And you, Elliot, of Stanford White as well, of ragtime fame. But I. I have to let go of that dream. I was hoping we could.

[Ariana Grande]

Should we go?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Should we?

[Matt Koplik]

Very soon.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think you should see yourself out. Go, go. Sorry to disappoint, but. But I think because you, Harry, I come. I thought of you because of Stanford White. And then Harry saw. I think that's the name of Evelyn's husband in ragtime. So I was like, oh, it's a combination of the two. It's Harry White, Stanford White. And Harold thought, never mind.

[Ariana Grande]

I. No, no, no. I've never gotten that before. And now that you lay it out like that, I'm. I'm surprised. I'm surprised that that's never. No one's ever brought that up. But I see it. I. I see the correlation.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't think it was ever brought up because it's not something that should ever be brought up. It's just that I have a broken ass brain and I'm like, well, what if those two men had a Gaby? I'm like, well, there we go. How are you doing today, gentlemen?

[Matt Koplik]

Doing good.

[Ariana Grande]

We're doing really. We're doing really good. We were. You're. You're wearing this shirt. I don't know. I guess the podcast. So people can't see it, but we're, we're just ready. We're primed and ready to talk about one of our favorite musicals.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is what?

[Matt Koplik]

Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. What is your history with the show? How did it enter your chat? One might say.

[Ariana Grande]

So I think I was, I was just at our grandparents house and, and they were, they were planning to take us to New York for the summer and they said, look up a show you want to see.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And.

[Ariana Grande]

And I was on. I think it was broadway.com. and I was just looking at all the shows playing and I was 13 years old. I had no idea. Maybe I was 12 or 13. I had no idea what was going on. I saw that Hunter Foster was doing bridges in Madison county and I knew him from Urinetown because my school just did it. So I was like, I'm gonna. Let's go see this. And I think my grandmother was like, that movie is. No, I can't. I know the movie. I can't see the show. So I just saw the Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder. It was like bright orange on the artwork. I was a little kid and I was like, this looks fun. So we got tickets to see and then.

[Matt Koplik]

And listen to the cast every day.

[Ariana Grande]

Until a deep hole of obsession with the show before we even saw it. And then I know when we went, we had, we got an understudy for Jefferson Mays and we had become obsessed with him. So that was a big blow to our little teenage hearts. Hearts. Absolutely.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I'm assuming the understudy did well.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We're never people to, you know, like I always love supporting an understudy because I always. Because obviously.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I understand that's not the easiest thing to go on. But we did later see it again with Jefferson Mays, which was at the.

[Ariana Grande]

Time I made a big Facebook post about how disappointed I was. I was like, I was thinking, who's read? I look back on it, like, you.

[Matt Koplik]

Can see Harry's dramatic one.

[Ariana Grande]

Why did I do that? About 12 years old, who did I think was listening?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Facebook really loves to remind us that we treated it like Twitter for a while. And it's like these memories that you have of these statuses you wrote, and it's like, don't throw this 12 year old post in my face. Facebook. That's just mean.

[Matt Koplik]

So rude.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, so rude. Yeah, but so. Okay, so you got to see it twice then. That's very nice. That's. That's. That's good. So has it stayed in your lives since then, or is it just mostly remained as, like an obsession?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, yeah, I've always loved it. I. I listen to the music a lot. Like, I. I used to be obsessed with musical theater albums. I still am, but it got bullied out of me pretty hard as I reached my upper years of high school. So I stopped for a little bit. But when I go back to musical theater albums, I'll listen to that one quite a bit, which I know a lot of people don't really do. I. I talked to a lot of people are like, the music isn't. Because it didn't even win the Tony for best score. But earlier this year, I did an opera with the LA Opera that was directed by Darko Tresnik, and I did not know that he was gonna be the director. I sort of did, like, no research at all. And then I walked into the room on the first day of rehearsal and I just saw him standing there, and I was like, excuse me, you're one of my childhood idols. And I couldn't say anything. And he came up to me first and was like, nice to meet you. How are you? And that was really wonderful. And then randomly, again, one of our actors in a production we did this summer turned out to be best friends with Jefferson Mays. And so he, because he was his makeup designer for a show called Perry Mason, I think, and so we got to meet him. He came out to the show. He actually brought his cane because he's using that now, which was cool. So, yeah, it's randomly been in our lives, specifically this year.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Elliot, were you bullied out of listening to musical theater cast albums as well?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, first I bullied Harry out of it, and then I got bullied by others out of it, so.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you reap what you sow.

[Matt Koplik]

I understand it's a vicious cycle.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it sure is. Yeah. No, I saw this show. I think it either had just opened or it was about to open. It was that it was a weird season because it was yeah, yeah. There were a couple of shows that were coming in the spring that had a lot of buzz that ended up kind of belly flopping. And then Gentleman's Guide was coming in the fall slash winter. And there's a reason I'm saying all this because one of the major legacies of Gentleman's Guide, which we'll talk about is how they ran that show and like when they chose to open and how they sort of kept it open till the Tonys and things like that, basically, long story short, and we'll talk about it more, but they did something that worked out for them and other Broadway shows have tried to do it and none of them have succeeded. So it's this double edged sword that they had this beautiful success story that no one has been able to capture since. But it's also, there's context to all of this. But I remember seeing it with, I think my grandmother and I didn't know anything about it outside of that. It had been done at Hartford and it had Old Globe. I didn't know it was based off of a movie book. So I didn't know much about the plot. And I won't lie, for the first 20 minutes, I was a little bored. When I rewatched it for this podcast, I was a little bored again. But once Bryce Pinkham as Monty Navarro gets going with them plans, then I think the show's like off to the races. And then I have no notes. So like those first 20 minutes, it's not that they're bad, it's just like, especially when you know what's coming, you get a little antsy waiting for like the, like the fun, kooky stuff. And when you go in not knowing anything about it and just knowing it's supposed to be this big comedy and the second song is that you're is you're a dice with, which is like a perfectly fine expository song. But you're also like, this is. No, I've. I've decided to marry you and it's going on a little too long. So I, it was a very interesting time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, we were just, we were, we were rewatching it as well and we were kind of talking about it, how interesting it was. Jefferson Mays, like really was like such a, a big star from the show. And when you rewatch it, he doesn't really show up for like 20 to 30 minutes of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, he, it takes about 20 minutes. I think he pops in for a second with that letter. Oh yeah, the letter. Yeah. But like his performance you're right. His performance doesn't really start in earnest until about 20 to 25 minutes in. I mean, Phoebe doesn't show up till, like, minute 50.

[Ariana Grande]

I know what you mean, too. I think part of the reason why I stayed invested is because the woman who sings that song was the voice of Cosmo's mother from the Fairly Odd Parents.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He sure was baby. Ye.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I. That. I remember just being mind blown that voice actors could also be musical theater actors. And that kept me hooked. But you're totally right. I mean, it's not the kind of number that really, really hooks you in the way that. That some of the others do. I remember when I went to see it being so surprised because I built it in my head as this, like, huge, big, fun romp. But it was a small theater. It was like. Everything was relatively intimate about the show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Which definitely took me by surprise. And it's not. It doesn't, like, force you to. It's not the kind of show that forces you in. It's kind of like presenting, I think, itself. And you warm up to it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It's sort of like it's a steady train that sort of. For an hour is like, you'll get on when you're ready, but, like, we're just gonna move at our pace. Have you guys been to Broadway before that trip when you saw Gentleman's Guide?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I think our first trip was. I think I was in fifth grade. Our parents took us to see Book of Mormon, and that might have been one of the first. Maybe saw Mamma Mia. Before that, but. But not too. Not too. Too much Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, there's usually. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Pretty interchangeable Mamma Mia And Book of Mormon. I have friends who, when they come to New York for the first time and they go see a Broadway show. Depending on what show they see, they tend to get underwhelmed by the size of the theaters because, like, touring houses are three, four thousand seats sometimes. And so I've had friends, like, go to say, like, the Broadhurst or the Walter Kerr, where Gentleman's Guide was. And they're like, these are pretty small. I'm like, yeah, you don't want a barn on Broadway because you want everyone in the audience to feel like they're part of it. And it's hard to feel a part of it when you're 9,000ft away. Yeah. That theater was. I would say the Walter Crowe was actually kind of the perfect theater for Gentleman's Guide because it was intimate, but it also had an atmosphere about it that felt very Edwardian, which is. Yeah, because that's the time period that the musical is set in. Did you guys ever end up reading the book or the movie Pine Hearts and Cornets or Israel?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I always wanted to because I love Alec Guinness, but I never. I never had gotten around to it, and I. And I should have, and I should still.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You love Alec Guinness?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Our dad. Our dad was a huge Shakespeare nut. Randomly. He's just a guy from Oklahoma, but was huge into Shakespeare. So he was really into all those old British actors who used to do it. So he would try to explain to us who Alec Guinness was through the television show Smiley's People when we were really young. Really random.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That is random. But, I mean, I can't really say anything because my own dad definitely instilled that kind of culture into me. Not in Shakespearean actors, but definitely in old movies. And then certain British fare. Like, my dad and I are both kind of semi Anglophiles. He was a really big fan of the TV show Upstairs Downstairs and would get me to watch that. We would watch the original House of Cards that we had on vhs. Not the Kevin Spacey, like the.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

We had.

[Ariana Grande]

We had.

[Matt Koplik]

We had that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We had.

[Matt Koplik]

Not on vhs. We had on regular dvd, though.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. Well, I'm assuming you guys are somewhat younger than I.

[Matt Koplik]

Perhaps. Perhaps. Maybe.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think by the time you were born, VHS were on the way out and DVDs are becoming a bit more regular.

[Ariana Grande]

We had a couple. We had a couple land before time on vhs.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, you had a couple, did you? Yeah. Let me tell you, I'm. This is me being the grandpa and Simpsons yelling at Cloud, saying, we used to be a country. I. We had a drawer filled with VHS. And when eventually my dad started buying us DVDs, I was so wary of them because I was like, what. How do you rewind? How? Like, you press the rewind button and you look at the screen until you get where you want to go in the movie. Like, chapters. What are chapters? What's a. Why is there a menu? Am I on the computer? I watching a movie? It took me a while to get into it.

[Ariana Grande]

So did you read the book or watch the movie?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, no, never did. I did watch clips of the movie in preparation for this, and I did a deep dive into the story of the movie and its legacy and how it connects to the show, basically. I mean, it's a very similar premise. It's just. I would say the movies may Be a little darker. I mean, it's still a comedy, but it. Monty in the movie is, I would argue, even more active in the murders than he is in the stage show. And he's pretty active in the stage show, but it's sort of like it builds in. First he's, like, kind of passive, and then he, like, does one thing that creates a domino effect until he's like, no, he's fully sawing the plank of a boat. So one of the dice was. Can drown, like, things like that. But in the movie, he's, like, pushing boats off of a cliff and poisoning and stabbing people. It's. It's an interesting. It's an interesting time. I recommend it for people as someone who's only seen, collectively, 15 minutes of the whole thing, you know, But, I mean, I guess it's. It would be good to watch the movie at some point because that is what inspired the show. Like, they. Yeah, I think they have to officially say it's based off of the book for copyright reasons. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

There's a lawsuit, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I remember hearing about all that litigation. I was too young.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, the whole litigation thing, the judge ended up throwing it out. I was reading all up about it. But, yeah, like, they originally got permission for copy for the copyright of the film, and then I think at some point the rights owners for the film changed their mind or decided that they actually lifted too much or they changed too much. I don't. I can't recall all the logistics because the two articles I read were more just about, like, reviews of the shows that briefly mentioned the lawsuits. But, yeah, so now I think for legal reasons, they say it's based off of the book, but it's like, it's not. Stephen Ludvig, the composer, had wanted to adapt this into a musical since, like, the 80s, and that was sort of his pet project for all those decades. So it's. It's the movie, you know? Yeah. What is. What would you say is your favorite song in Gentleman's Guide?

[Matt Koplik]

I like that Horrible Woman.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, really?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I feel like, you know, and it's not me just being edgy trying to pick a song that is unexpected, but I, to me, when I was younger and, like, started, like, trying to learn how to play the piano, that first intro piano bit was really mesmerizing for me. And I would. And it was. I was. I was honestly obsessed with, like, that. The. The whole melody for that song. And I think it's just a beautiful song. And I also.

[Ariana Grande]

And the guy who sings it's got a really interesting voice. Eddie Corbic, I think.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Eddie Corbich. Yes, yes, yes.

[Ariana Grande]

Corbich. Yeah. I remember when hearing his voice and being like, that is unlike any voice I have ever heard. And really enjoying hearing him sing specifically and even seeking out more of his singing beyond just Gentleman's Guide, because. Because he was just such a unique voice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. He. He has a whole bunch of stuff. My listeners will know him as Audra's Mr. Snow in her carousel in the 90s. He's awesome. He's also Scuttle in the Little Mermaid musical. And he's George. Yes. Best band George and Drowsy Chaperone. It's like a very piercing tenor that's so undeniably him. He has a story that I love where he was in Seussical. He was in the original cast of Seussical, and he played the Lorax, the one who speaks for the trees. And his part kept getting cut during rehearsals, but he. He still had, like, this really big song, I think, in the second act, and they go to Boston and they cut all of it. So he's basically like a glorified ensemble member, and he goes to the team. He's like, guys, I. I signed up for a role. I'm now like, glorified ensemble. I just. I can't bring myself to be in this anymore. And they said, we totally get it. They said, you're still going to be on a principal contract. Like, can you at least just open the show? Like, get. Get us to Broadway. Open the show. And, like, within a month or two of opening, you can go. And he's like, well, we are trying to adopt a kid, and that's expensive. So. Yeah. But, yeah, I think he stayed with the show only briefly, but it was. I appreciated his Sanders for himself. Of, like, I'm. I'm happy to have the job, but it's like a bit of a ego crush to come in as one thing, and then, like, by the time you get to Broadway, it's all, yeah, I.

[Ariana Grande]

Had no idea the Lorax was originally in Seussical, and that is mind blowing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think at some point, like, everything was in Seussical. They were. They were throwing all the spaghetti at the wall as they were making that thing.

[Ariana Grande]

Wow, that's so funny. Yeah. My favorite song in Gentleman's Guide. Back to Gentleman's Guide. Probably the Act 1 finale.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Harry, just so you know, this. This podcast, we go on tangents all the time, so I'm going to rely on you to Bring us subjects.

[Ariana Grande]

I'll take that job. I'll take on. I'll take on that responsibility. So, yeah. Act One. The act one finale, I really, really enjoyed. I love the melody that the Daisquif family. I forget the name of the specific character he plays in that moment, but he's the nice one who ends up being more of a mentor. That opening melody he sings is. I just really, really like that. Yeah. The actual finale.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I'm trying to think. I don't know if I can. Because the. The melody that is stuck in my brain is the Monty Nevada. Because that's also a little bit.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And a bit at the end.

[Ariana Grande]

It's the one that's like, look at him. There's no denying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. Yes. Because then Phoebe does this. Does the same melody. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good one. I think I have to take staging out of the equation because as I was re. Watching, I was like, God damn, this staging is good because there are some numbers that are not necessarily funny on the page, but certain things that. How do you say the director's name again?

[Ariana Grande]

Darko Treznik.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Dark. Dark. Dark. O. Tresnik.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Ariana Grande]

I could have said it the whole time wrong while working with him, but he didn't correct me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So maybe he's just very polite. But every. Because he did that and he did Anastasia on Broadway, and both times I was like, God damn, I'm glad I never meeting this man, because I. I would butcher this name. Darko Tresnik. No, he. He does like certain things that are. It's. It's all very intricate and very precise and very fast. And so things like. Like Sabella's opening number, though. What. What would I do without you? It's very clever. I don't think it's like a. An outwardly funny song. It's. Which, again, is, I think, sort of not a problem. But the thing about the first 20 minutes, I tell everyone, I'm like, just hold on tight. Like, it's going to get hilarious soon. Because the. Because when the show isn't body comedy, it's more just like very clever wit. And so Bella's number, I've always found to be very witty, but I don't laugh when I listen to it. But I was watching Lisa O'Hare do it and watching her doing certain things, I was like, oh, that's funny, because it's like all. Just all business that she gives herself to keep her from ever, like, standing still with Monty for half a second. So it's Fun to watch her sort of lure Bryce Pinkham in and then at the last second, like, do an about face and he, like, falls to his face or things like that. And there's. There's a bit about her shoe. I guess she's trying to get him to do the strap of it or something. Yeah, yeah, it's. How would you describe that relationship at the top of the show, Sibella and Monty?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, I think. I think it's. Gosh. How would I describe it? I think that. That you assume it's gonna be sort of like the normal, typical, like, romance. I don't know what. I remember when I saw it and you found out that she's kind of a gold digger or just not into him or kind of putting him down because of his status. I was surprised by that because when this. When the song starts, I think, oh, it's cute. And they're clearly like a couple and they like each other. And then obviously, you know, there has to be stakes or some sort of obstacle for him to. Wants to become a dice squid. So it's like. It's challenging. It's not your typical musical theater romance.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I. I think when I saw it, my impression from that song was, like. Was that she was. She didn't necessarily love him, but that she just sort of enjoyed having him around.

[Ariana Grande]

Like a play.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, like a plaything. And as someone who's devoted to her. And then as the show continued, because it was clear how much he adored her. As the show continued and they were sort of showing, I wouldn't say many facets to Sabella. I don't think she's got many facets. She's got clever and cunning and she's got a semisweet side. But, like, I don't think she contains multitudes. But when they showed that she had a little bit of a fondness from her, it was like, oh, okay, that's. That's a nice thing to know, other. Because otherwise, I don't know why I'm watching these two. But that opening number definitely made me feel a bit like it. Like a. Like a woman in her plaything. It was. It was very. It reminded me of, like, a popular girl and the nerd who does her algebra homework. And she's like, oh, yeah, well, what I do without you.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, that's a great comparison. That's a lot better than the way.

[Matt Koplik]

I just. I think it's kind of funny because it kind of puts Monty into, like, that passive. I. I state that he is. I think, like, throughout the Whole play, right. He's kind of like along for the ride and he kind of falls into a lot of the things and has to, you know, step up to, you know, making the, the going after the, the murders and everything. It's like. It's not his natural inclination at the start of the play.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, no, that's very true. Monty is a pretty passive character for the first 30 minutes and very adheres to the strictures of tradition and society because it's very proper right there. It's. I think that. Look, sorry, we'll get into all this in a second. Actually, before we talk about any of that, I didn't even do the main setup, which is Elliot Harry, for the uncultured out there, what is the plot of A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, it's this guy who's a poor fellow, he's down on his luck and his mother has just passed away and he finds out from. Is it his. It's his aunt or is it just a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a random ass woman.

[Ariana Grande]

Random woman comes and tells him that his mother was actually part of the royal family, the D Squits and left the family and was shunned by the family for falling in love with a regular normal person. But now that she's dead, this random woman thinks Monty has the right to know that he is a dice with. So he decides he wants to go and be part of the family. You know, who wouldn't? They're rich and famous. They kind of turn him away. And then he, I think it gets fed up with the hand he's dealt with life, all the shit that's thrown at him, and decides that he, in order to become the Earl, he's going to murder the eight members of the family that are in line before him so that he can then have the world.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, that's. That's very accurate. And there is, there are other characters involved. There's Sabella, the woman that he's in love with. And in the novel and movie, I guess she's a childhood sweetheart that like they grew up and they sort of semi court each other, but because she wants to marry somebody rich, she's not going to marry Monty. Which ultimately is another motivation for him to do what he does. Because in the, in the show he. In the.

[Ariana Grande]

Sorry.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In the movie what it is is that he seeks revenge on behalf of his mother because of the family disowning her and then. And, and sort of erasing the memory of her. And so he's like, well, you know, screw these guys. I'm gonna. I'm gonna show them. And in the musical, it's part that, but also he does reach out to one of the Dice quiz. The skater, the one who. The son of. The one who's nice to him. And all he really says is like, hey, so I just found out my mom was like, one of your clan. Maybe I could, like, get a job in one of the banks you own. And the dude's like, no, not gonna do that. And never heard of your mom. Don't. It was very Mariah Carey. I don't know her. And that is when. And Sibella does sort of plant the idea in his head when he's. Because he's trying to entice her to take him seriously. He's like, I just found out I'm a Dice quiz. She's like, yeah, sure. Eight people would have to die for you to become Earl. That's not it. That's not the flex you think it is. And he's like, huh? Eight people, you say? And he does try to. He tries one more avenue with the Dice Quest. He tries the Reverend Priest, Pastor. I don't know what the difference with any of these religious men are. I don't know what.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, you're talking to a couple of Jews here. We don't know either.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Holler. I. But, I mean, I'm a. I'm a. I'm a bad Jew. I always say I'm Jewish, but I mean, I. The only thing I know less than Judaism is Christianity. No, he go. One of the members of the Dice with Dice with clan is a clergyman. Is that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah. Some sort of religious figure.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so he's like, well, this man is a man of God. Like, clearly he'll help. And I think this one's even kind of more dickish because he's like, of course I remember your mother, and it's so terrible what happened to her. Yeah. I'm not gonna vouch for you, though, because I just don't like conflict. And ultimately. And that's sort of, like. That was sort of his last hope of doing the correct thing. And they go up to the top of the church for some reason, I guess, to, like, see the view or the architecture. It's all very British. He's like, let's go to the most dangerous part of the building so you can appreciate the flying buttresses. It's, like, dumb. And he ends up falling to his death. And Monty doesn't help him, and so becomes the Impetus for him going. Well, that one was a freebie, but I should probably start planning out the rest of these. Yeah. Do you have a favorite death in the show?

[Ariana Grande]

Gosh, I think the one. I forget again. I forget the name, but the. The bodybuilder who drops the barbell on her. On her head or his head. What is it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's his head. Okay, there are. There. Well, let me find it. I. I'm going to pull up the Wikipedia page so we can give these victims their proper due. The bodybuilder one. That one's, I think the end of act one, right? It's.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. Yeah, that happens in the act one finale.

[Matt Koplik]

I believe you love that act one finale.

[Ariana Grande]

Shut up.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a good act one finale. Listen, it's. No non stop, but it covers a lot of story. Okay, let's see. It's. One moment. So the one who pulls the Mariah Carey is Asquith Dysquith Jr. The son of Lord Asquith, who is the one who's nice to Monty. Then it's the Reverend Lord Ezekiel DY Squith. So he's a reverend.

[Matt Koplik]

Great name.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And a lord. And then the bodybuilder's name, is it Major Lord Bartholomew. I think that's the final one. No, you're right.

[Ariana Grande]

No, you're right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're absolutely right. It's. Yeah. Major Lord Bartholomew is the one with the. Was the bodybuilder one. And then after him is Lady Salome.

[Matt Koplik]

Wait, who's the. Who's the last one?

[Ariana Grande]

Lord Adelbert.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He's the one with the. When you're looking at the barrel of a gun.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Is that your favorite death, Elliot?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I like. I like the poison in my pocket. I like the.

[Ariana Grande]

The ice skating.

[Matt Koplik]

Ice skating. Yeah, that's so. I just so iconic. And the. The. All this whole staging for that scene is just stuck in my head and them going back and forth and then. Right, what's the moment where it gets like they get a little bit sexual when they. When they go back and forth as well. You know what I'm talking about?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, just the poses.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, the pose. Yeah. Honestly, it's just the poses they make. Going back and forth is so funny.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, well, you know, she's. She's a Floridor girl and they're not with each other for their minds. He's with her for her body and she's with him for his pockets. And. And yeah, so it is very fun because they do like fake Skating on the ground and obviously aren't moving. And then when they go off stage and the focus is on Monty, you see them in the background sort of gliding across on, like, clearly a skateboard or something. Yeah, yeah. And I. I feel like the first two or three poses is Jefferson Mays holding the actress. And then, like, the third one they come back on and she's holding him. And it's just throwing you for a little bit. It's like, you know, the comedy comes in threes. Yeah. I think my favorite death, I think, isn't even because it's the most elaborate or there's even a song. It is the Lady Salome doing Hedda Gobbler. And it's because I still remember to this day the way Jefferson Mays would run around the stage and just shout, bang. It's. It's for those, again, for the uncultured out there, how to Gobbler is a famous Ipsen play. And at the end, she shoots herself. And so this daisquif who's decided to take a life on the stage, she's doing Hedda Gobbler, and she's just running around joyfully. This, again, like, the final scene where her character is about to commit suicide, she's just running around, jumping on stage, shouting, bang. Bang. Bang. And Monty ultimately does her in by putting in real bullets in her gun. And she goes off stage, she shouts, bang. And in the middle of the bang, you actually hear the bang. And you see feathers from her headdress just shoot on stage. And I think I also just love the twist of. And it was at that moment, like, the actors announced to the audience that she had died for real, and the audience leapt to its feet.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. It's hard to single out all the deaths because they're so funny. Even though with the bumblebees, with. I think Henry is the guy's name, that one's so funny because the song is so pretty and just, like, beautiful and then just a screaming man dying in the background.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that's the thing. And I. I remember I had to review this cast album, and I was like, listen, some of these songs are not funny out of context. Some of them aren't funny without the staging. Like, but they are still very pretty songs. But, yeah, like that song, if you were to tell people, oh, that, like, brought the house down. It was so hilarious. They'd listen to it and they go, what?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, let me. Let me explain to you what's happening. Yeah, we'll go more into that.

[Ariana Grande]

Wait, what Oh, I was just going off that. It's funny because I remember I was just like, I was just starting out at a performing arts high school after that show was big and everyone was singing. I don't understand the poor. Like, that was the big song to sing. And I remember watching all these, like, you know, people try it for college auditions or whatever and thinking it just. It's not the same on its own. It's kind of an interesting song to do, to pick as a choice you see in the show. And you're like, oh, my gosh, that's so funny. But because it's not like, it's mostly talking and out of context and seeing, like, a young American do, like, a British accent for an old guy is like, a little. And that made me think about too, how the show really, when you take out each piece individually, it's not as. It's not as strong as when they're. I mean, obviously, like, for any show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I. Yeah, I think that's true of the best kind of comedies is. Is out of context. It doesn't work so well. Actually, that reminds me of a conversation I had with my grandmother just the other day. I will get to that conversation after this break. You're an arrow collar, you're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy. And we're back. So you were saying, Harry, about sort of the context of that song. I don't understand the poor. And watching these poor fools try to make it work in an audition, I. I admire these young people's taste and their bravery and. And wanting to do a piece that requires you to make acting choices and. And sort of make a bit of a fool of yourself. But you kind of have to learn the hard way that the best comedy isn't songs that work outside of the moment that they're in. Right. So I'm trying to think. For example, the conversation I had with my grandmother the other day, we were talking about. So my dad and I were quoting some movie, and my grandmother was like, why is that funny? I'm like, well, it's funny in context of the movie. And she said, well, if it's funny, it should be funny. I said, okay, grandmother. I said, you love some Like It Hot, do you not? She goes, oh, my God, that movie's amazing. I went, right, what's the final line of that movie? She. And she's like, well, nobody's perfect. I was like, right, that line isn't funny. Just saying this like, you don't go up to a stranger and say, well, nobody's perfect. And then people fall apart. It's funny in context of what's happening in the scene. Right. And she. To her credit, she's 100 years old and stuck in her ways, and she sat there and she went, you're right. And does that mean I'm an amazing debater, perhaps?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Yeah, 100%.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But more importantly, she was able to understand what I meant. And so, again, I think something like even just the idea of these devs and the fact that how elaborate they all are is we're not doing justice to their humor. A. Without visualizing, but also without building up throughout an evening, how to prepare an audience for the kind of story they're about to experience. Right. And I think that's also why so many of the deaths get weirder and occasionally more gruesome as the night goes on, because you're just sort of. By that point, you're just more all in. Like, you can't start with the decapitation. Right. You can't. That can't be the first one. You gotta build to it. So we start with the. We start with the accidental. The sort of happenstance death. And then we. Which also, by the way, is. I think that's not all the deaths happen on stage. Some happen offstage. And that's one where it's, like, maybe the most revealing, but it's also the most theatrically done of Jefferson Mace just sort of standing on stage as the production behind him is spiraling. Yeah. And then just. It all kind of just progresses from there. So it starts. It starts with the happenstance, and then it's, okay, well, I'm just gonna cut a piece of thin ice here. And when they skate over it, they just might fall in. And then it just becomes things like putting more weight onto the. The barbell. So he decapitates himself putting lavender in a beekeeper helmet. So all the bees are attracted to him. He just. He gets more and more direct with what he's trying to do. It's. Do you guys ever watch a Robot Chicken?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I've seen it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, they have one where they do. I know what you did last summer, but it's the Bratz dolls, and they've run over Barbie, and a year later, they're each getting killed one by one, and they think it's by Barbie. It ends up not being Barbie. It's. It doesn't matter who it is. It's someone from Monster High. But the. The Joke is that the last 90 seconds are each one getting killed off and the kill. The masked killer doing all these elaborate ways of killing them. And they get, she gets to the third girl and she just shoots her point blank in the head. And she turns to the camera, she goes, I ran out of ideas. Like, it's, yeah. And it's, it's less than Monty runs out of ideas. And it's more that he runs out of ways to cover his tracks or like not be directly involved. He's like, ah, I'm already in it now. I might as well just like take an ax and go for it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I mean, and there, there are so many ways to, to kill people. And there are only eight family members, but even two of them he doesn't actually even do, I guess a spoiler alert.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Well, yes. I mean, would you say is the first one one of the two that he doesn't do?

[Ariana Grande]

Would you say the first one? No, no, the first one. Because he, Because I'd say, you know, he had the choice to save him, but I'd say the first one is the guy who has the heart attack off stage.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right, yes. Forgot about that.

[Ariana Grande]

And then isn't the second one, the last one? Because it ends up that it was Ms. Shingle who murdered.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

Adelbert in the second one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Do we need to bleep that out? Is that gonna spoil for everybody?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, we're talking about things. First of all, the show is 10 years old. We're talking about it. Spoilers abound, baby.

[Matt Koplik]

Fair enough. Fair enough.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. So, well, we find out exactly who Ms. Shingle is. She's apparently not so random. Is that right, Elliot?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. You know what I, I was gonna say, before we leave this topic, I wanted to talk about the, the audition song thing because something that I, I, because I, I totally wouldn't want to leave this behind because something that this show meant a lot to me as a kid is because, you know, a lot of like, you know, picking audition songs, you know, looking at songs. The classic musical theater song always, you know, has a similar build to like some big belt note at the very end. But when I was young, like, this is one of the first shows I heard where, you know, there is a lot more subversion with the composing of it. And I'm not a composer, I'm not trained in that way, but like, I, you know, foolish to think, ending on like, you know, more of a lower, calmer note. And, you know, I think better with a man ends like with the High belting note. But I like how the show didn't have a lot of the, the classic singing tropes that. That Broadway. Yeah, that much Broadway does have. And I think, you know, being young, it exposed me to going down a path of other. Learning about other shows like that. You know what I mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Absolutely. Yeah. I think because of the period it's set in and they, the writers of it, Robert Friedman and Steven Ludvig, were very intent on keeping it in that tone, in that style. Like, they did not do what Broadway's Great Gatsby did, where they're like, well, it's the 1920s, but like, we're gonna give it modern pop because why not? Which it's. It's valid if you can sell it. But they were like, no, no, we're gonna make this a style that makes sense for the time period. It also will just help with sort of the grisliness of, of the plot. And actually we have. So we have a Discord channel for this podcast. And I asked the listeners if there's anything they wanted us to cover for this episode, and they, they said quite a few things. One thing that somebody wrote was just the wonderfulness of a musical that has two soprano roles, classic soprano roles. And they also get to be funny, which is even rarer. I mean, I. I don't know how many hands you can count the number of funny sopranos and musicals. I think of Kunaganda, Glinda and Wicked sort of. But like, I would say Cell and Phoebe get to be silly and they get to, you know, run around and, and goof off, but also sing really classical, no high soprano notes. And those songs do build in a way where when there are money notes, it is very earned and you. They take their time. So I feel like while I'm not gonna say this show is an easy sing for anybody, it's also not like a kill yourself nightly kind of thing. Like Monty's on stage. I think it's also very. The writers are very understanding of the limits of the human body. By making Monty such a he's on stage all the time kind of role, they're like, well, we're not gonna put him through the ringer and have him just like sing his face up all the time. We're not gonna make him go through all this if he's gonna have to be on stage 90% of a two hour musical, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Not to say that Bryce Pingham is not a fantastic singer because he's got a beautiful voice. He really kills it. Yeah, yeah. And then what do they say? When they. When we were young, we heard a lot from acting teachers that, like, you have to be in your. When you're on stage, if you're a good actor, you're, like, always spitting all the time.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah. I was gonna sound.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. This is big for us because we talked about. After we saw the show, we would sit close up and we'd see Bryce Pinkham, like he said.

[Ariana Grande]

I think he spat on us like, the third or fourth row and he was spinning everywhere. And that's what Jonathan Groff's known for. Right. But I. Which I've seen him too, and I would say that Bryce Bigham spit way more, Just like gallons more.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean. I mean, whether it's Bryce Pinkham or Jonathan Groff, I'm not going to be mad at either one of them for spitting on me. They can do it if they choose to. Why did they say spitting is the. Is the testament of good acting?

[Matt Koplik]

Did you. Did you. Did you not hear that? Ever hear this before?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, No, I had never heard that, but I had a few different teachers who said different things, but I never heard that one.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what?

[Ariana Grande]

It's just a good mark for that. You are enunciating. Well, like, I think that's the thing. If you're spitting with your peas like, you're.

[Matt Koplik]

You're.

[Ariana Grande]

You're. People are gonna know what you're saying. That was.

[Matt Koplik]

I think maybe we just had really weird acting T shirts.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know they spent too much time in Sondheim's dungeon. I. Yeah, I mean, I guess. I think it makes sense of. If you were really enunciating, there will be some spit coming out. Groff is a different matter, though. Like, that boy drinks, like, three gallons of water before he goes on stage because he'll just, like, be on an open ah, vowel. And it's just.

[Matt Koplik]

He's just doing it because he. He knows that people want it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

That's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. At this point, he knows his audience, and he's like, here's the splash zone. What I was always told was you never want an audience to see the acting. You don't want them to see the wheels turning. Right. Because then it becomes about, you know, you as an actor and not about the character. And so that was something I always thought of whenever I was watching a performance. But of course, there are so many different styles of acting, and I think in Gentleman's Guide, like, you can't do naturalism in this show, that you would be so wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

No, Yeah, I remember being surprised by that, too, after listening to the cast recording, thinking that. That Monty was more of a straight man. And I guess it definitely is, comparatively. But. But, you know, especially in those first 20 minutes, like, he's. He's being real goofy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's such a goober. He's mov. Know, his whole body's moving around the whole time. He's going crazy with it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. But I think he's got a very fascinating arc because he is a goober for the first 20 minutes. I love that word. Thank you. And he. It's a way to. Because he has to be our insight into this story. Right. He doesn't know anything about his past or his mother or anything like that. He has to get all this information. He kind of has to run around and introduce us to all of the characters, and he has to sort of be a simple for a minute so we can look at him as the underdog. I was. Robert Friedman wrote a book about the writing of this script. And I didn't buy it because I only discovered it this morning. But luckily, Amazon allowed me to read the first 40 pages. So I was getting sort of a rundown of his approach to it, and he was like, listen.

[Ariana Grande]

God bless Bezos.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Between that and going to the opening night of Sunset Boulevard the other day, like, that man is shouting to the rooftops, I'm an ally. But he. Friedman talked about how, you know, you don't have to necessarily root for your main character. You just have to be willing to watch them and for something like Gentleman's Guide, because of the tone of it, it's like. Well, you do have to kind of root for him because he does a lot of terrible stuff. But we ultimately want this to be a comedy. This is not Sweeney Todd about, like, a man's descent into madness. So how do we root for someone who is just objectively committing crimes and, like, for personal gain? And so what he first did was he established that Monty was an underdog and set him up in a. Almost. In an almost impossible situation. Gave him a tragic backstory he had when we meet him, as you said, Elliot. Like, he. Or maybe you said it, Harry. I can't remember. Like, he just lost his mom, so he's. He's not in a. In a happy place. He's not winning at life. And he does also. He does try at first, the honorable thing. And when that doesn't go well, life presents him with another alternative. And because he acts like a gentleman, no one ever suspects him of Doing the terrible crime. So that's sort of part of the humor, is the juxtaposition of a very proper society where dastardly things are happening. So the contrast is. Is enough of a mishmash that it just becomes humorous. Like, it's not Sweeney Todd where we're in the down and dirty, where we are. We are in a high society where everyone is more concerned with using the right utensil at dinner than some relative dying of a thousand bee stings. Which I think is.

[Matt Koplik]

Which lends itself right to the comedy, like you're saying, because that sort of culture is so specific with all the little movements. And, you know, we talk a lot about how comedy has to be specific for it to be funny. And so setting it in a world where even the smallest things, like, matter to a tee, that's exactly what lends itself to being funny at the end of the day.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Absolutely.

[Ariana Grande]

Going back to him being a goober and his. You know, this is something that I always kind of wanted to talk about and never even really vocalized is I remember the end of the play being really taken aback how he effectively gets both women at the end. Like, the last thing I remember, they both walk up to him, they turn around, he, like, grabs both of their asses, and that's, like, the end of the play.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They grab his ass.

[Ariana Grande]

They grab his ass.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, they both grab.

[Ariana Grande]

I don't know why. My brain.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What was that? What's that about?

[Ariana Grande]

I don't know what that's about.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wow. Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

2024, Harry. 2024.

[Ariana Grande]

But I remember being like, what? Like, this is, like, three. Like, is this. Like. What does this mean? Like, he was such a goober, and now he's got.

[Matt Koplik]

He's got it all.

[Ariana Grande]

It freaked me out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, that's sort of. But that's his progression, right? Because in addition to the murders, he does endear himself into the dice with family because there is the member that is nice to him. I'm already getting his name. It's Asquith, right?

[Ariana Grande]

Lord Asquith.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, Lord Asquith, who runs a bank and. And brings Monty on as a stockbroker. And as it turns out, like, Monty is really good at it. So, like, even if Monty wasn't trying to do what he's doing, he would become a rather wealthy banker in no time. He's already becoming one. So that. And that already is, like, making Sabella attracted to him. So he's gaining confidence in the fact that he's starting to win at life. He's he has his own money now. He's able to, you know, rent a very lovely apartment. The woman of his dreams is interested in him again, and he has all this confidence and this swagger that he didn't have before. The Monty that opens act two is not the Monty that opens act one. When he's. When we. The opening of act two is the why are all the dice squids dying? Funeral. Which is fun. But then when we go to his apartment with Sibella and they've obviously just boned, and he's just sitting in the chair, like, holding onto his port with his shirt unbuttoned, I'm like, oh, this Monty gets dirty. And it's so you. But it makes sense. Like, he's. It is the arc of his character, and it's when he goes a little too close to the sun and then. And gets tried for one of the humidors. He did not commit, but still, like, puts it all into perspective of everything he's done, because the whole thing also is done in flashback. We meet him at a table writing out a confession in a diary, which we eventually learn is in his prison cell waiting to find out about the verdict of his trial. And by the end of the show, a little bit of that goober Monty does come back, because he has to keep that if he's never going to get caught. But the Monty that fucks is probably 85% of the Monty that we. That we end with. And that is why I think Phoebe and Sabella decide to share him, because they both love him. He's winning, and there's just something about him. Like, I. Someone also wrote in the Discord, they're like, can we talk about how this show sort of ends with polygamy or open relationships? And I'm like, I think that is one of the most baller things about the show. And it's. It's not him proposing it to them. They have clearly decided this off stage, Phoebe and Sabella. And, like, they have had. So actually, let's. Let's. Let's set the scene. We're gonna go all over the place. We're not doing this in chronological order. I don't know why you thought so. Elliot, you need to sit down. So act two, the last dice quit. That needs to die. The son of Lord Asquith. No, different one. It's the front of this.

[Ariana Grande]

I think it's Adelbert, the guy in the red coat.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sorry, sorry, sorry. There are eight of them. I can't.

[Matt Koplik]

And they all have the same.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, actually, Maybe nine, Right? Maybe nine.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, but the ninth one isn't ahead of him. He's after him, right? Is that what we find out?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

According to Wikipedia, by the way, that ninth one, apparently Chauncey, apparently at the curtain call, the actor playing Monty's supposed to present him with something, and when he goes off stage, he's supposed to, like, look like he's feeling sick. To imply that Monty's killed is gonna successfully kill him as well. But I don't recall seeing that on Broadway, and I don't remember that. And the bootleg that's available cuts off before you can see any of that. So if anybody remembers this show on Broadway or has video of the show on Broadway and knows, like, tell me if that's something that's actually true, if that's just something that's on the Wikipedia page. But yes. So they're at Highhurst, the. The manor. Monty's there with Phoebe and Sabella. We find out about Ms. Shibble, Ms. Shingle. We find out she's not so random. She's works at. She's been working at Highhurst for almost 40 years. So that's why she knows everything. And she. The Dice Squid that Monty intends to kill, he ends up not being able to go through with it, only for that dice quit to die anyway. And so he gets put on trial for it because it's just all too circumstantial. And he's in his cell, he's writing away in his diary, and Sibella and Phoebe come on stage. Well, first Phoebe comes on stage and she asks Monty, does that Sibella woman love you? He can't say anything. She's like, that's answer enough for me. And she goes off stage. So, like, a minute later, they come back on stage wearing amazing hats. And what happens next? Elliot and Harry, the world. Elliot's favorite song is that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I was gonna say is that. That's. That's the start of that horrible woman. Yeah. I love that song so much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's. So what. What is the song? What's. What's happening?

[Matt Koplik]

The song is both of them making a defense to. To, like, obfuscate what really happened.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And say it was the other woman who did it. That's correct.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I think they're blaming each other.

[Matt Koplik]

They're blaming each other, and then they're making confusion for everybody. So they can't. You know, they can't pin who did it. And no one. No one goes to jail for the crime.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, well, because, I guess because they go to two different authorities, and those men are now convinced that either woman did it. And because they have conflicting accusations stories.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They're not gonna press charges.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But there is enough circumstantial evidence to clear Monty's name.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So they get him out, and they. It's one little moment in the staging that dark Go has where they. They. I think Phoebe's all in blue, Sabella's all in red, and Phoebe has a red handkerchief. Spilla has a blue handkerchief. And at the end. Towards the end of the song, they both are at the front of the stage singing about that horrible woman. And she did this and she did that. It's all her. It's all her. And you're thinking like, oh, they're trying to pin it on the rival so Monty can get clear and they can happen to them, to himself. And they look at each other, exchange handkerchiefs. So now their handkerchief. Yeah. And you're like, oh, this was a plan that they had. And then when you find out that they're conflicting testimonies, is able to get Monty free, you're like, oh, okay. So they're in on this. And then you're like, well, then who's. Is he gonna end up with either of them? And he does. I don't even know if he. I don't remember Bryce having the realization that he is going to be with both of them. I just remember him singing and them kind of funneling him. And then as I watch the bootleg again, as I corrected Harry earlier, they turn him around and they both squeeze his ass and then walk off stage, and it's like, oh, okay, so this is. This is where we're at now. This. They. They decided offstage who's going to be with Monty, Why not Cherry? Yeah, yeah. Like, it's. Yeah, sorry. Polyamory. That was the. Not polygamy. Polyamory. That was the person mentioned. They said, I love that it's a love triangle ending in polyamory. Let me look through this discord a little bit. I want to mention a couple things that people wanted us to bring up. Someone said the Jefferson Maze of it all. You guys famously didn't get to see him the first time, but you saw him the second time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, this is. Okay. So when we met him in person just a couple months ago, he is like. He's a lovely man, real gentleman, truly fantastic. But he is very much like the characters that he plays. He. He. We. I remember because he. He was such like a childhood hero to ours. I had friends in the audience. And I'd be like, see? Like, is he there? Like, do you hear him? Like, he. He's here at our show. And they'd be like, yeah, who's this British guy? And I'd be like, no, he's not British. But he spoke in such a distinguished way that everybody there thought it was this British guy who came in to see the show. And I remember after he was talking to us about, gosh, I don't know if this is. If he'd become. But it's not the biggest thing. He had just seen Deadpool and Wolverine, and because he did Music man with Hugh Jackman, he was talking to us about Deadpool and Wolverine. And I can only imagine he's not the biggest MCU fan. And the way he was talking about it really gave the vibe of someone who was just like, not. Not on a different. Just like, he's. He's so. He's so brilliant and such a genius. I think his brain works on a different level than all of ours. And that means he's just a little bit. I don't know if eccentric is the right word, but listening to him try to talk about the plot of Deadpool and Wolverine was like listening to a monologue from the show that a writer decided to randomly write. In Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, one of the family members tells the audience about what the plot of Deadpool and Wolverine. I was just ridiculous.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm trying to imagine Jefferson Mays at a screening of Deadpool vs. Wolverine, and, like, my brain can't comprehend it. It's, like, trying to imagine, I don't know, like, Judi Dench at Twilight. Like, why. Why are you there?

[Matt Koplik]

All I can tell you is he's probably sitting in that audience looking pretty fashionable because the guy's got a good taste in that.

[Ariana Grande]

Stress is lovely.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, he's. He seems like a real cad. No, he's. He's what I call a talent alien, where he is so bizarrely talented. He can do so many things that normal people can't. And part of his genius is that bizarreness of choices that a lot of people just don't think to make. And they always work because he knows what he's doing and is trained in what he's doing and good at what he's doing. But they are fascinating choices. I was. When I saw him in Gentleman's Guide at that point, he had been known on Broadway for I Am My Own Wife, which I saw him in. So, like, I. I equate Jefferson Mays with many roles because I My own wife. It was all the many roles and then this. And then he did the One Man Christmas Carol like two years ago. And again, that was him playing a whole bunch of different roles. So I've always thought of him as like a shapeshifter. There was a time in between I Am My Own Wife and Gentleman's Guide where he was doing a bit more straight drama and was always well received. But it wasn't quite to the acclaim that he got in I'm My Own Wife and this. Like he did Journey's End and he did Pygmalion. Everyone's like, yeah, like one of the great stage actors we have right now, but like, oh, no, it's hard to top the one man show. And then this was everyone sort of going, oh, like he's sort of back doing what we love, but it's funny this time. And he's. And he's kind of singing, kind of singing. And it was just very, very exciting. And someone also wrote in the Discord, they said, if he were put in featured actor of a musical that year, do you think he would have won? And if he had been put in future actor musical, who do you think he would have bumped out? I don't know. If you guys were super on top of the Tonys this year of this season.

[Ariana Grande]

I was looking a little bit before.

[Matt Koplik]

The podcast to try to remember.

[Ariana Grande]

It was in the. Who won? Was it the guy from Beautiful? No.

[Matt Koplik]

So no Aladdin, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Or no, no, James Monroe Eichelhart won for Aladdin, which he was never not winning. That was the moment. The moment Aladdin came to Broadway and they were doing the Friend like Me and having people stand to get a full standing ovation for him afterwards, like it was. That was just always going to happen. I think if Jefferson Mays were appointed to featured, he probably would have kicked out Jared Spector from Beautiful, a show that definitely did very well with Tony nominators. But he was not popping up constantly in the Precursors, which I always say I don't like calling them precursors for the Tonys because there's no overlap in nominating bodies. So, you know, some shows can do really well with the outer critics circle and then get totally shut out at the Tonys, but it can sort of give you an idea of what performances people are gravitating towards. And Jefferson actually won the Drama Desk and the outer critics Circle for lead actor in a musical before the Tony Awards. So I would argue it was probably a battle between him and Neil Patrick Harris for Hedwig.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I was gonna say. And you're definitely more familiar with the circuit at the time than I am.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm a freak, Elliot. That's why.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I was just talking about getting spit on by Bryce Pinkham, so I think we're both a little bit freaky. But listen, this is, this is gonna.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Be a really nice podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. So I was gonna ask if you thought that did the split votes, like, do you think Jefferson Mays would have had a chance if he, if it didn't, if there wasn't, like, possibly splitting votes between him and Bryce for fans of the show, or was Neil Patrick Harris kind of like the, the major winner?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I, I don't think he and Bryce were splitting, I think, because that is what I think happen with Mormon. I do think that Andrew Reynolds and Josh Gad ultimately split the vote. And Norbert. Leo Butz swooped in. Let me, let me be clear. I don't think that it was, like, by a small margin. I think that Norbert was slowly becoming the front runner of that year, but I think this was ultimately down to Jefferson and Neil. While Bryce is very much the glue of a gentleman's guide and does a beautiful job and totally deserves his Tony nomination, there is something very, I don't want to say awards baity, because that's undermining what Jefferson does in the show.

[Matt Koplik]

But listen, if it's, if, if we're talking awards bait, then I am a fish in the sea, and I am, I'm looking to get some of that bait.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I, I, I would love to bait some awards, but, but, you know, I mean, like, when I, when my teacher told me, you don't want an audience to see you acting. You want to just be the character, the truth is that there are a lot of awards bodies that like to see the acting. That's what, how many times do we see Oscar wins for performances? We're like, that was really big. And like, we're going to be embarrassed by that in a few years, and it kind of ends up happening. It's also why so many times people in Oscars win for playing real people, because you can have an argument over what was the better performance, where it's like, you can't deny that Jessica Chastain looked like Tammy Faye Baker, that Renee Zellweger looked like Judy Garland. And with this, I think just the feat of playing eight different roles and the stamina of that and also being a Broadway staple actor at that point, I think that Gave Jefferson the edge. I think ultimately what happened was. Let me double check because I think. I don't recall Bryce being in a lot of awards conversations prior to the Tonys. He might have been. Yeah, he was nominated for the Drama desk, but I don't recall him being a major contender because that was the year of Bridges, which your grandmother wouldn't see with you, because when she said she had seen the movie and said she didn't wasn't going to see the show with you, did she mean, like, that's inappropriate, or she's like, you can't make me sit through that story again.

[Ariana Grande]

I think she just thought it was so sad. I thought she was like, it's such a sad story. Like, why would you want to go see a sad story?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Has no one explained Les Mis to her?

[Ariana Grande]

She. She walked out of Manchester by the Sea. She walked out of every. Anything that's sad, she'll walk out of. So that's. That's just sort of the thing there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay, listen, we all. We all have our things. We all have things. But yeah, because I remember with Bridges, when they announced it was being a musical and was coming to Broadway, like, everyone in my parents generation were just like, jesus Christ. Like, because that. I mean, do you know the legacy of Bridges of Madison County?

[Ariana Grande]

I know a little bit about the movie. I've never seen it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, so it was. It's a book first. And the book was like a major, major, major bestseller. But it was. It was both a phenomenon and a cultural joke at the same time because it was just such like a weepy page turner. Like, it was. It was a Nicholas Sparks movie. Nicholas Sparks book, before Nicholas Sparks, but, like, to the extreme. And a lot of people are like, God, this book is terribly written. It's so cheesy. And then the movie with Marilyn, Clint Eastwood was actually considered an improvement and very popular. But still people are like, oh, God, the Bridges of Madison County. And so when they're like, we're making it a musical, everyone, my parents generation were like, God damn it. Like, I gotta sit through that shit again. And then the musical ended up being good. It had its problems, but it was good. But Steven Pasquale did not get nominated for it, which was considered a huge upset. And I would argue Bryce or Gentleman's Guide and maybe even Ramin Karimlou for Les Mis were sort of the two that pushed Stephen out. Because looking at it, it's Neil Patrick Harris for Hedwig and Jefferson Mace for Gentleman's Guy. Those are definitely like the top Two with Neil winning and Jefferson right on his heels. Andy Carl for Rocky, which I also think like was never gonna not happen. Because even though that show disappointed, it began another show that was coming in. Everyone's like, okay, they love it in Germany. It's. It's. It's Aaron's and Flaherty. Oh, this like, this is gonna be the show that launches Andy Karl. It's the. It's the Oscar winning this movie that everybody loves. And I came in and we're like, the boxing match was cool at the end when they flew the meet in. That was nice. But everyone still was like sort of championing the idea of Andy becoming a leading man. So those three were always in. And then Bryce, I think ultimately has the edge over Ramin of being the co lead of the clearly best liked new musical of this bunch. And then Ramin is Jean Valjean, which is. It's not impossible, but it is rare for Jean Valjean's not to get recognized somewhere. It's just too much of like the role. Yeah, yeah. And he was a Valjean who showed abs, so like he was never gonna not get nominated.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I. I love. How do you pronounce his last name? Pasquale. Steven.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Steven Pasquale. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Gosh. I mean, he's just. So how's he been? He's got. It has to have gotten a Tony nomination at some point.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, that's the thing. Well, so he hasn't been on Broadway that much is the thing. He's always come close. Like he is the original Streets of Dublin and man of no Importance, which very much wanted to go to Broadway but was not received super well by critics, so they didn't really have the momentum to move. And he had done the first iteration of Lighting the Piazza when I think it was in Seattle and couldn't do it in Chicago, but was planning to do it in New York, but then booked the TV show Rescue Me so he couldn't do it. And that's when Matthew Morrison came in. So it was like always just something which has always gone in the way of him originating a role on Broadway and getting a nomination. I think Bridges is like one of two shows he's done on Broadway.

[Ariana Grande]

Wow, that's crazy. He's just so good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh yeah. His voice is stupid. And he's a phenomenal actor as well. It. It was considered a major upset that he didn't get nominated for Bridges. Yeah. So okay. At that point. So he's had four Broadway shows, only one of which is a musical. He. Yeah. His Broadway debut was technically Reasons to be Pretty in 2009, where he played that. I think that's Neil LaBute, and he plays the bigger asshole in that one. So, yeah, he was never gonna get nominated for that. Bridges. That was considered a snub. Then he does junk at Lincoln center, which. Did that get a play nomination?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I think that was a really popular one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, that. That got a play nomination, but nobody in the cast got nominated. Looking at the grosses, it did fine. It was a link. It was a Lincoln center play that was not a revival of a classic. So, like, it wasn't selling out nightly, but it grossed okay. Grossed better than Bridges and Reasons to Be Pretty. And then his final one was American Son with Kerry Washington. I think that's the play. And Jeremy Jordan. Yeah, that's the play where their son, I believe, gets murdered by a cop.

[Ariana Grande]

And a Netflix movie out of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think they did. They did. I did not watch it because when the play was on Broadway, everyone said, don't see it. And then when it was on Netflix, I was like, well, I'm going to continue following that advice.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. But I mean that. I think that one actually kind of was pretty popular because. Yeah, that one did pretty well because he and Carrie and Jeremy all had their fans, so everybody kind of came out to see that play, and it was, like, deemed important, so a lot of people want to go see it. But, yeah, he's. He's just has bad luck when it comes to Broadway because his, like, one real big shot for a Tony nomination just didn't happen.

[Matt Koplik]

That's too bad. Well, I wish he could get nominated for Here We Are because I love. Yeah, he was so good at that show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He was so good in that. My God. You know what he was really good in. I don't know if you guys saw teeth at Playwrights Horizons.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Ariana Grande]

I don't think we've been back to New York since that used to live.

[Matt Koplik]

We used to live right next door, and I miss being able to walk right there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, you got to come for a visit soon. There's a lot of good stuff happening.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, we are. We're coming in two weeks to see Sunset Boulevard.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, no, no, I say we're coming to see Hills of California. We are also seeing Sunset Boulevard.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay. First. Okay. I have things to say.

[Matt Koplik]

Please. Now's the chance.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, no, but before I say any of that, let us take another break. You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the Top, you're a coolidge dollar, you're the nimble tread. Okay, now we're back. So by the time this episode comes out, my reviews for Hills of California and Sunset Boulevard will be posted on Insta. My review for Sunset has already been recorded on this podcast. I saw Hills of California in London first, where.

[Matt Koplik]

Lucky you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I. I say that every day when I wake up in the morning, I say, lucky me. No, it's. I. We really liked it, and we thought that the third act was a bit of a letdown. And then I was told, oh, well, they, you know, they rewrote the third act for Broadway. And I was like, well, get me back to that theater. So, side Hills of California. It is definitely better here. And it was already good over there, but it's tighter. It's 15 minutes shorter. The third act is a little less weird, a little more personal. The acting is off the charts. The set is beautiful. I think you will both really, really like it. I don't know how you feel about Butterworth as a playwright.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely love him.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay. This is definitely not as weird as some of his other stuff. Like, this is not Jerusalem. This is not the river, or even the Ferryman. It's a little more like kitchen sink family drama, but it's really compelling. And again, Laura Donnelly just mops the floor with you. Sunset. How do you two feel about that musical?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, so it's always been a blind spot, in my knowledge. I, you know, grew up, like, because I was a little Sondheim boy, you know, hating on Andrew Lloyd Webber for no reason other than people told me I should.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then you grew up and found out there. There are some reasons.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. Well, I don't know. I. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there definitely are, but I. I don't. I just. I was like. Well, won the Tony when it came out. People love it. Like, there must be something to it. And I'm also very fascinated by Jamie Lloyd as a director. Like, everything that he's done. We're gonna go see the Tempest in London in a couple months that he's directing, and I just, like, think that he's one to watch. And I don't know. I don't know if I'm excited, because the one thing we saw was betrayal, which, you know, was good, but it's so radical that I don't know if I love it or don't like it or I'm somewhere in between. I'm still trying to figure that out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Jamie Lloyd, I'm relatively new to. I saw his doll's House with Chastain two years ago and loved it, which I did not expect to because I was like, I'm getting Ivo Van Hoffe vibes from this, and I. I have an allergy to Evo Van Hoffe. But, like, I don't. I don't like Sunset Boulevard, the musical. I love the movie. The movie is a masterpiece, and you should definitely watch it.

[Ariana Grande]

All right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Yeah. The musical is both, like, far too faithful to it and also misunderstands so much of what makes the movie work, because the movie is a melodrama, but it's also a satire. Like, it's funny as hell. And the musical, as written, takes itself so seriously. And so what I'll say about this, about this production, because I don't want to. I'm not going to spoil anything, but I will say it is a lot more fun and funny than they are advertising it. Like, they. They around a lot with the show. And I went in sort of as someone who doesn't like the show, just being like, okay, like, what are you gonna do? And then I was surprised at how much of a sense of humor it had and how weird they were willing to be about it because it is a weird story. And, like, with weird characters, it's Hollywood egos that are just so fragile, they're on the brink of collapse. And how people act about that. Like, it's. I always say Norma Desmond, who Nicole plays, is, you know, the 1950s equivalent of Jenna Maroney from 30 Rock of. She's always just acting like there are cameras right there and there's always an audience right there. So she just looks and sounds bizarre. And so that's what Nicole does. Like, she's. She is Norman Desmond by way of the Real Housewives and Jenna Maroney. And it. I think it works. There are so many things in it that only makes sense to Jamie Lloyd. And that's okay. It's still very interesting to look at. But they're definitely. If you get back to me after you see it and you say, oh, every choice made sense to me, I'm gonna call you an absolute liar. You. I think you can watch it and enjoy all of it, but there are definitely things where you're like, what did that mean? I. Okay. Also, as I'm assuming neither of you really are familiar with the story of Sunset.

[Ariana Grande]

No, I know. I know it a little bit. I know a little bit.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay. I'll be interested if it makes sense to you when you watch it because, like, it is done in a way where I know a few people who don't know the movie or the show and saw it. And, like, I couldn't tell you what the story was about. I'm like, makes sense. Because there's no. There are no props. Everyone's dressed like it's 2024 Hot Topic, and there is a set, but the set is just like, basically one giant projection screen. So sometimes people don't realize, like, where they are in the world of the show. Like, are we at Norma's mansion or are we at a diner? Are we at a movie studio? Like, what. Where are we now? But it's fun. It's very fun. And musically, you know, everybody sings it great. The orchestra sounds amazing. Andrew Lloyd Webber, for me, I like him when he's weird. And that's, for me, Evita, that's Jesus Christ Superstar. Even Cats a little bit. Sunset is him in his 90s era where he's like, but one must write songs that Barbra Streisand can then cover on her album. And so there are moments in Sunset Boulevard where, like, that's a pretty melody. Don't think it belongs here. And I think Jamie Lloyd agrees because he's like, well, what if I had Nicole do something really weird while she's saying. And, like, that'll help. That'll help.

[Ariana Grande]

That's interesting. Very excited to see it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I think, I mean, between that and Hills of California, you're seeing two of the more interesting things right now. So you're, you're winning the game.

[Matt Koplik]

All right, well, thank you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I like to listen.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I'm definitely, definitely excited for those. I feel like I got to bring it back to Gentleman's Guy, but you said there's no pressure, so.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Absolutely. There's absolutely. This is one of those tangents, gentlemen, that I told you about. Well, my gentleman, with your guides to love and murder here. Okay, here we go. Now we're back. Let me, I know. Let me actually look back on this Discord channel, see if somebody else said, because you said that Jefferson Maze of it all, the Tony performance, which is a very lovely Tony performance, but actually, I guess. Okay, Ashton, I'll put it this way, because we were talking about the Tony Awards.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Are you aware of the story of Gentleman's Guide when it was on Broadway, prior to the Tony Awards, what was going on with it?

[Ariana Grande]

You know, this is so funny. I, I, I don't. And I. In rehearsal once for the opera, I walked up to Darko just as he finished explaining it to a bunch of the cast, and I Caught like the last sentence and I was too scared to ask him to repeat himself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You don't ask Tony winners to repeat themselves ever. So Gentleman's Guide opened, I think like that November of 2013, I want to say. Is that correct? Yeah, November 2013. Yeah, November 2013. Which is both like inopportune and not opportune time because you get a month of Thanksgiving, pre Christmas tourism, Christmas, New Year's, but then you have to deal with January and February before the spring kicks in and more people are traveling to New York and willing to take a risk on new shows. So they had like an okay first two months of their run, financially speaking, but they did open to really strong reviews, including a major rave from the New York Times. And they kept the show running even though it was losing money for the better part of like four months because they were just like, we just gotta make it to Tony nomination morning. And they make it to Tony nomination morning. They. And at that point they had been nominated for a whole bunch of drama desks winning a bunch outer critics circle. Tony nominations happen. They get 10, the most out of any show that season. The box office immediately starts to pick up. And then the night of the Tonys, they win four, they win musical director, book and costume design. And then they give a really stellar performance on the Tonys. And then they're like a major sold out hit the rest of the summer through the fall. Once, you know, New year's happens of 2014 into 2015, they're sort of back in the precarious waters, but they ultimately are able to run for a little over two years and make a profit and go on tour. Now a lot of shows since then have taken the wrong lesson from that. A lot of shows will build in their capitalization money to tide over a show so they can build momentum word of mouth. And a lot of shows think, well, if we just make it to Tony nomination day, we'll be set. And then a lot of shows close because they don't do well. Tony nomination day. What the producers of Gentleman's Guidelines realized that the rest of us hadn't at the time was they had their ear to the door and knew what the word was on shows like if then with Idina Menzel Bullets Over Broadway, they, they understood that they were the best musical of the season or at the very least, they knew that they were going to hold on to having the best reviews of any musical that season and had a really good shot. And not only a bunch of nominations, but possibly winning. They like, they Looked at the landscape and they saw that it is some reconnaissance. Exactly. I think there were some shows that they, that people thought might have been competition for them, but it didn't take a brain scientist to know that if you looked ahead, they could, they could win. That is not the case for a lot of shows since Gentleman's Guide. People just think to themselves, well, we just got to get through the winter because then spring rolls around and you're going to make money and then Tony's are going to help you make money. That doesn't always happen. And you have to win very specific awards and you have to deliver a performance as well. Like Gentleman's Guide was the combination of they had the reviews, they had the awards, they had a good performance. It's also a light comedy. Something like Kimberly Akimbo got the awards and the reviews, but it's. While it is a funny show, it's not like a super light hearted comedy. And also, there's no song in Kimberly Kimbo you can put on the Tony Awards that's gonna like sell it to middle America. Gentleman's Guide, at least they've picked the right song to sell to middle America. Right? Yeah. But there's become this narrative since then of like, well, just make it through the winter, you'll be fine. Get to the Tonys, you'll be fine. I'm like, this was a very. This was a specific thing that happened.

[Ariana Grande]

What other shows besides Kimberly Akimbo were our cases like that? Just out of pure interest?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don't ask me off the top of my head, I got to start looking. I started looking through seasons now. Okay, well, so I mean, it's not even just like starting in November and then going through the winter. It's like some shows open in February and immediately are like, doa. And just think, okay, well, as long as we make it to, you know, the Tonys. Okay, one second, let me look up best musical because there are also some that get nominated and still don't make it. Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Tricky business. Tricky, tricky business.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Very tricky business. I would say Suffs was a show that came to Broadway and got like solid reviews and had a chance of winning best musical. But ultimately, you know, they kept it struggling until the Tony night, hoping it would win. Ended up winning score and book and then using that for the summer for their advertising. But like that, that momentum died pretty quickly. So that's not closing January.

[Matt Koplik]

Is that closing in January?

[Cynthia Erivo]

They are, they are closing in January. Some like it Hot. Okay, this is one. Some like it Hot opened a few Weeks after, Kimberly Akimbo got very good reviews. I would argue not as good as Kimberly, but very good reviews. And because they were a big, splashy musical, they were like, well, you know, tourists are going to want to see us people. You know, you can bring the family to us. And they pretty much were always struggling from the moment they opened until the Tonys, like, they were just. They chose to lose money so they can make it to Tony Night. And in their defense, they did get a bunch of nominations. They had won a lot of quote unquote precursors, but that's because Kimberly Akimbo won those quote unquote precursors the year before. And then Tony Night happens. They win four, but nothing for writing. They don't win musical. And they continue to struggle throughout the rest of the summer. And they end up closing after a year, losing the majority of their investment. Yeah, they were hoping to do like a bit of a Gentleman's Guide. Other ones I'm looking at Paradise Square. Definitely was trying to make it to Tony's and thought that would help. That didn't happen.

[Matt Koplik]

Did they just get lightning in a bottle with Gentleman's Guide, like the. All the right pieces at the same time?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I think it was just sort of. A lot of things lined up for it to eventually pay off. It was like, do you. There's a podcast I like to listen to called Blank Check. I don't know if you guys.

[Ariana Grande]

I've heard of it. I haven't listened to it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a movie podcast. So, you know, we don't know them, but they. They cover filmographies of directors that what they could say. They get massive success early on. Then a series of blank checks. Sometimes they clear, sometimes they bounce. So, like, they've done all the movies of Tim Burton. They're in the middle of David lynch right now, but they did the guy who did Beverly Hills Cop and sent up a woman. And they talk about how the whole point of the podcast is when these movies fail or when they succeed, the same narratives often happen beforehand of like, oh, it was such a mess of a production. It was. We were over budget and no one believed in the director. And like, like Mad Max, Fury Road, famously turbulent set and no one. Everyone thought it was going to be this giant disaster. It turns out to be this really big masterpiece. But it's like, it's either smart or it's insane and you won't know until it's over. And so like with Gentleman's Guide, everyone thought that they were insane when it was happening of like, why are you keeping this open? You are losing your shirts. Like, no, no, we have a plan. We have a plan. It ended up paying off. And then other people look at it and they go, well, that can work for us too. But Gentleman's Guide had a lot of things in its corner. It had the reviews and it had the foresight to know that the field was weaker than everyone assumed it was and they could dominate in the end and that as long as they could get people into the theater, they could have the show run and that. And what they needed to get people into the theater was the Tony Awards. Some of these shows did not have the acclaim the Gentleman's Guide had. Like, stuff's got very respectful but not rave reviews. Some Like It Hot also got very strong but not rave reviews. And also some. Some Like It Hot did have genuine competition from Kimberly Akimbo. And I would even argue shucked. Like Gentleman's Guide was up against Aladdin, After Midnight and Beautiful and After Midnight was probably the best of those three. But it was a 90 minute review. And it's really difficult to get Tony voters to sign off on that beautiful jazz music too.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. So it's not, it's, you know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's. It's not even like, it's not musical theater music, which they would probably be a little more open to. Beautiful is a jukebox musical, which no matter people think the Tonys really don't like voting for if they can help it. The only two times in the last like 20ish years they voted for a jukebox musical for best musical were Moulin Rouge when they had to, because it was the COVID gas leak year, and Jersey Boys because it was like just such an undeniable hit. You couldn't ignore it. And as a sort of a consolation prize, they gave Jarcy Chaperone a whole bunch of other awards. I say this, like three people decided the whole thing. But, like, that is how a lot of voters kind of thought they're like, well, drowsy. Chaperone is so well written. But like, you can't deny Jersey Boys and Beautiful. Beautiful, successful as it was, was no Jersey Boys. And also, I think every bio jukebox musical since Jersey Boys has had the stink on it of it's not as good as Jersey Boys. And also, yeah, and I also think a lot some voters are like, I kind of regret voting for Jersey Boys not because it wasn't good, but because, like, what it hath wrought of this onslaught. And then Aladdin is Disney. And ever since Lion King, Disney will never win best musical ever again.

[Ariana Grande]

Now, what do you think about Bridges beating Gentleman's Guide for score? Because I know some people absolutely think that's the correct decision and I'm not one of them.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, I was about to say I. I was about to say I feel like most people feel that way. Not my opinion, not included in any way. Just like most people I talked to like. Yeah, but of course, why would you pick Gentlemen's over Bridges?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, maybe this is just a me thing and I, and I don't like, I hope people don't kill me. I'm not the biggest Jason Robert Brown fan. I don't, I don't dislike him. I just, I've never hopped on the train. I never really was taken by any of his shows specifically. So I didn't really know much about him when Bridges was around. And then Gentleman's Guide to me was just so unique. It was so. The melodies to me are so humble and just beautiful that I really was so surprised when it didn't win. And I know a lot of people who know the songs. I know a lot of people who sing those songs for auditions. And I don't even know a single song from Bridges. So I just feel like for me it was a no brainer that it was better. But then again, I'm not the Jason Robert Brown kind of guy. So if you are, I can imagine that's obviously the winner.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's Elliot. What do you think? What are your feelings?

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not honestly, truthfully, super familiar with the score, the music from Bridges. And so for me, obviously I'm like, well, I'm more partial to the score than I've listened to a bajillion times. But yeah, I mean, just, I mean, simply going back to like when I was young and impressionable, like it really felt like Gentleman's Guide was doing something that I never had seen before with, you know, you know, again, going back to like not every song ended on like a big belty high note for the lead tenor kind of thing. And, and maybe that's all really simple, shallow reasons to like a score. And as a kid. Yeah, sure, but. But yeah, I mean I similarly, I did find them. I do find them all really humble and, and I know, I think some people were actually said that the music was not hummable when it was out, but I disagree with those. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Like foolish to think Sabella, like, those are amazing songs.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, I think people Hummable is, is a, is a dig. That I don't think people understand what they mean by it. They're like, oh, it's not hummable. I'm like, yeah, it doesn't have a million reprises. Like, you're right. Your brain is not so advanced that you can hear a melody once and know it. Like, there are some musicians in savants who can, but not the regular theatergoer. I think the reason why the melody that most people will remember from Gentleman's Guide is the Monte Nevado. Because it's repeated a few times. Yeah. When the show is in preview. Because I was looking over the preview thread on Broadway World to sort of get a sense of what. How people were responding to it. And the initial reactions actually were kind of lukewarm because it had so much buzz out of town that I think people were expecting it to be a little bit more noises off and have a little more slapstick about it. And it's a bit softer in its comedy and in its music than that. And. And also they did make some tweaks to it in previews that made it tighter and made it a little wackier. And the tide did eventually turn with that. Although it is fun to read certain people who were like, so Team Gentleman's Guide at the start and when new members were reviewing it, being like, I was underwhelmed. Those early fans were like, oh, well, you're an idiot. And just like talking down to them. So nasty. I was like, can you stop? Like, that's very Gentleman's Guide to Love.

[Matt Koplik]

And Murder of them in that world to do so, isn't it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it is very stuffy British. Listen, I definitely can be snarky about shows that I don't like and about there. There are a small handful of shows that I just have no respect for. And if when people try to defend it to me or say that they like it, I'm like, you can like it. Don't you dare tell me it's good. Like, if you. Because I. I like shows that I also know aren't good. And I think it requires a lot of object. Objective criticism and analysis to understand that. But back to your original question. Bridges is ultimately a very sweepy score. Like, it's very romantic and like big emotional ballads. And I think that is something that again, in the way that people want to be able to see the acting, they want to have music where they go, well, that's just so epic and. And I want to vote for it. And there are songs in Bridges that I think are incredible. I also Think there are some songs that should totally be cut, not because they're bad, but because I don't hair. But that's always been my problem with Bridges. Bridges is ultimately a two person story that the musical tries to pad with so much other stuff and no one cares. Like, we don't care about Kelly O'Hara's family. We don't care about Stephen Pasquale's like, past. It's just we. We want to focus on them. It should be 100 minutes totally about them because all of their stuff is the best. It's also the narrative of. Of in a way, like a return to form for Jason Robert Brown. So if you are a fan of his, like, he shows all this promise with Songs for a New World and then Parade My God in the last five years. And then it's like he's doing songs for Urban cowboy, he's doing 13, and he's sort of just wandering around. And then he comes back with Bridges and it's like, yeah, it's not perfect, but like, God, like half of that score is just so incredible. And because it kind of got screwed over by nominators and didn't run, it felt, I guess, like a way to honor it. Especially because with the show closed, Kelly was never going to win. So it's like, okay, we can give this to Bridges and we can give book and musical to Gentleman's Guide. I would not have been mad if Gentleman's Guide had won for score. I am not. I don't think that Bridges winning is that contentious of a win. I think most people are pretty okay with it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I, I've got that response as well. I say as well. I feel like Gentleman's Guide was a harder vote to get for score because so many people, you know, like, I liked brief songs like Stop. Wait, what? Like, I thought. I think that's funny. And, And I just like it. Yeah, but I can see it being like, you know, when someone who's voting thinks about that song, they're like, oh, it's, you know, it's. It's slight. It's. But for me, it just like, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm more attracted to that type of like, not every song needs to be that sweeping, grand thing. But. But yeah, of course. Obviously anyone has their. Everyone has their opinion.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, but I totally hear you though. And I think that it's absolutely fair. I mean, I remember when, when speaking of Kimberly Akimbo, Kimberly Akimbo winning score was considered a toss up for a Lot of people. Because, like, some Like It Hot has all that big, brassy jazz music. I'm like, well, first of all, it's. They're doing 1940s jazz on 1920s jazz, which there's a major difference. But it was like. It's a lot of people for score. It's about the. It's about the scope of the sound and not about necessarily lyric writing or how it fits in context to a show or how little fat is there in this score. And I think Gentleman's Guide is a score with not a lot of fat. There is some. I will. I will say to the day I'm dead. You're a dice quiz should be half the length. And I do understand the need to get us on Monty's side early with something like foolish to think. But you are running the risk of not alienating, but slowing down your audience by not picking up speed faster. Again, it's, as you said earlier, Gentleman's Guide is that train that just goes at a steady speed. And it's like, you will join us when you are good and ready, but this is the speed we're going. And don't ask for a steam train. And I think that everyone's down for that with a musical. And they can acknowledge the book, which is well structured and funny and definitely, I think, takes the wheel more than the score in this show. Like in the same way that a well structured, sung through musical people don't understand that the book is the structure and so should be awarded accordingly. A score that maybe isn't. Not to quote Family Guy, but insisting upon itself and rather adhering to the libretto actually proves that it is a good score. Like, I think the score for Spelling Bee actually gets a bit of a bad rep sometimes because it is. Some of the songs have broken through. But that whole score is so tied to that book and that is actually a testament to how good that show is.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I agree.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah. Whereas, like, there are songs and bridges where no matter who sings it, you're like, oh, God, epic song. And I think there's a magic trick that can be had of a song being so amazing in context and also working out of context. But I also think there are songs in Bridges similar to, like the LIPA Wild Party, where they're actually better in cabaret setting than they are in the actual show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which we saw Steven Pasquale in that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's a song. City Center. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You saw him do the Wild Party at City Center.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, they also made a whole bunch of Changes to it. I heard. I didn't see it.

[Ariana Grande]

They did. They did. Yeah. It was because we had. We listened to that score a whole bunch. Yeah. They got rid of some songs they. I wrote. They wrote a song specifically for Sutton Foster.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Those are choices people made. The. I mean, I'm also the esoteric who. I'm a big fan of the lachiusa Wild Party, which talk about a score that, like, you cannot take any of those songs out of context. It's because the moment you do, you're like, why are you singing this super racist song, the super sexist song? Like, I think also Gentleman's Guide is not as impressive a first listen on a CD as Bridges is, which is also how a lot of voters end up voting for scores. They get the recording or they get samples of the recording and they listen to it. And so, like, Gentleman's Guide, they sit there and they go, how pleasant. I'll sip this with my tea. And then Bridges, they're like, oh, let me sit with my wine and just swim in it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, you're totally right. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I think both are absolutely justifiable votes. I just. I like. I like to put myself in the minds of people who aren't me, but have to cast a ballot because that. It helps you predict things. Like the Tonys.

[Ariana Grande]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Do you guys ever do Tony pools? When. When they happen?

[Ariana Grande]

Yes. No. This year, I was so confused about all the shows. I had no idea what was going to happen. But we. We definitely did in past years. I'm trying to think the last year where I really had. We. We're graduates of Atlantic. So, like, when Kimberly Akimbo came through, like, we're always. We're always rooting for that Atlantic show. Gosh, I think the last. This was quite a while ago, but the last thing I really felt for was the band's visit. Like, dance visit versus spongebob. I was like, really team bands vis and hoping that. And I don't.

[Matt Koplik]

Huge David Yazbeck fans.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It was like an easy, easy slam.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What's not to be a fan of? Amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The Full Monty is my favorite musical of all time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay, first of all, hot. The Full Monty is. I love the Full Monty. I think the Full Monty is. I don't think I will say definitively the Full Monty is in the top five best musical adaptations of a movie ever.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, that's a fantastic opinion of yours you have there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think. I agree. It's up there with a little night music and little shop of horrors are just like, God damn, you adapted this thing so incredibly well, Yazbek. So if. If I think if Janita Story is the best composer we have right now in musical theater, Yazbek is the best lyricist. Yeah. And probably, if not second, third best composer, which is like, that's not a slight to him. Like, think about who we have right now is composing. But, like, he's so versatile.

[Matt Koplik]

You know what? It's funny. I'm gonna. I'm actually gonna find a neat little tie in back to Gentleman's Guy from this, because we listen to a lot of David Yazbeck's regular music, like the. His that he releases himself.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. As a musician, apart from musical theater, which.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, by the way, if you haven't listened to, highly recommend it. What's this? What's the song of the ducks?

[Ariana Grande]

Here come the ducks.

[Matt Koplik]

Here come the ducks. Everyone who's listening, listen to Here Come the by David Yazbeck. But to type back in, I had just realized Stephen Lutvack had released an album of his own music in the early 2000s, which I was listening to this morning. And I like those. I. I really like the songs as well. And, you know, I mean, he. He has this one song called the Dinner Party, where he sings about, like, the creation of bagels, which I. I'm so down for. But they're like. They're cute and they're nice and I. You know, maybe it's easier now to. To. To say, look back and think, oh, I wish he had had gotten his Tony, because, you know, unfortunately he had passed away and he's got that new.

[Ariana Grande]

That new one coming out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

Alfred Hitchcock Presents in London, directed by John Doyle in London. Yes. I think.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's. It's Alfred.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Alfred Hitchcock Presents. And. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you said it all.

[Ariana Grande]

John Doyle directing a. Directing Alfred Hitchcock Presents, I found to be very interesting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That is fascinating. And that Steven Ludwig did the music for that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's. I think it's early 2025. They may. Like May.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. And Bath, I think.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Good for him. Good for him. Yeah. I mean, that's things you don't. You never know how it's going to work out. Right. Like, of whether you're going to get the chance to award somebody or not.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. Yeah. And it's ridiculous to think about it in terms. Because that's not what it's about, but. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And at the time of the Tonys. So I bring up Tony Pools also, because that was the first time I ever did a Tony Pool. I was brought. I. I was invited to the Broadway Cares Tony party because my roommate at the time worked for Broadway Cares and they every year they do ballots where you get to you, I think you, like, you submit 20 bucks and you fill out the ballot and whoever wins gets two house seats to whatever Broadway show that they want. Yeah. And so it was four of us and we each did a sheet and basically me and our friend Mike were in charge of all the sheets. So what we decided was that one, she was going to be a super conservative guess. The second was going to be like a super bonkers, like throwing all the spaghetti at the wall guess. And then the third and fourth ones are going to be a combo of like, of the two. And the one that was, I think our friend Sarah's ended up being the winner. And so we ended up going to see Hedwig with Neil Patrick Harris. No, I know, I saw you had. With Neil Patrick Harris. She and I saw Aladdin because we're like, we want to see it, but we don't want to pay money. So we, we went to go see Aladdin. But that night was fascinating because it gave me a lot of insight into how to try to predict these things. And now we, we do a lot of Tony episodes on this podcast. We'll do like check ins every couple of months and then basically late April through June, it's just like every week is Tony stuff. And we talk about looking at past winners and narratives and patterns that you can look at and, and ways to think of how a large group of people might react to something because you, you have to take your own personal feelings out of it.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so I think if you're a fan of Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, it's easy to look back on that Tony's and go, well, how could it lose score? Like, how could Jefferson Mays lose? Like, come on, like, what were they thinking? And at the time, it was like, it was actually kind of considered a really major victory for them that they did win musical and they also, but they also like did get to win book and they won director. Like, director was not a sure thing. And I think even costumes wasn't a sure thing. Like, people thought that Bullets Over Broadway, which everyone agreed was a dud, at least looked beautiful. So they went, oh, well, you know, straw will win choreography and they'll win all the design stuff. And they just goose egged all night long. But like, it was the same thing with Piazza people. I don't know how you guys feel about Landing the Piazza.

[Ariana Grande]

Not, not, honestly, not too, too familiar with it. Yeah, I'm definitely more familiar with everything else that season. That's like the, my peak Broadway season for me. And what I love, like Spam a lot. I love that Iran Scoundrels love spelling bee. The pillow man. Doubt like crazy. See, but Light in the Piazza is the one of everything that was there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I just don't know. Well, get into it because that score is incredible. That whole show is beautiful and it's also one of my absolute favorite Tony performances of all time. But that was a year where Spamalot was sort of deigned, the new producers and you know, had all these Tony nominations, million dollar, millions of dollars in advanced sales and Piazza was sort of considered the esoteric stepchild. And like, oh well, Victoria Clark will win and like, they'll maybe win orchestrations and like, that'll be it. Like it's really down to spelling bee and Spamalot to, you know, dominate the night. And spelling bee ended up. Did. Ended up losing musical, but they won book. Spamallott did win musical, but they only won three. They won musical director and featured actress for Sarah Ramirez, which is like a third of what they were expected to take home the night Piazza ended up winning six. And yeah, theater geeks look back and they go, how could Piazza lose? Like, oh, you don't understand. They did so much better than anyone thought. And we look back now and we go, idiots. But at the time, it was considered a super impressive feat. And the same thing is true of Gentleman's Guide, of they were able to last through financial woes and not. And being the least splashy musical of the bunch, the least financially impressive of the bunch. But ultimately being the best crafted new musical and winning the night away because it was ultimately, I feel like it was down to them and Beautiful, because Beautiful was a very sizable hit and it wasn't Disney. So they're like, well, they're not going to give it to Disney. They might give it to the jukebox. But ultimately voters were like, we'll give it to Jesse Mueller, but we can't give this best musical. Like, we'll give this to the real show. So yeah, it's good to sort of put yourself in 2014 shoes and take that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, you're so right. I mean, I, I hardly meet anybody who's seen Gentleman's Guide or even really knows about it anymore, which is really sad. But I'll meet at least like twice a year somebody who's like, Hedwig changed my Life, that revival. And people still love to talk about that show, so it makes sense why. Why Neil Patrick Harris won.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it was a. It was a great revival. He was very, very good. I will say. I got to also see it with John Cameron Mitchell. And the truth is that there is only one true Hedwig, and it is John Cameron Mitchell. I also. That was also the season of Violet, Sutton Foster and Violet, which was, for my money, the best revival of the season. But I was not mad that Hedwig won. And Hedwig was just, like, such a phenomenon for the year that it ran that you couldn't turn it away. We'll talk a little bit more about all that in just a second, but guess what, guys, we have to take another break. Really, I beg to differ with you.

[Ariana Grande]

How do you mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. So we talked a little bit about the score. We talked about the Tonys, we talked about the murders. I want to see some other things in the discord that people wanted us to look into. Someone said the history of the source material. So fascinating. Well, I don't know enough about source material, so I'm not really going to. We did talk about the movie a little bit. Oh, question. How does Better With a Man somehow refrain from being homophobic when there are other similar songs in other shows that are offensive? The technicalities of that. And then I guess Raul Esparza did a demo of this show at some point, so I didn't know that, but they wanted us to mention that, so we mentioned it. There was a demo of the show that Raul Esparza sang in Better With a Man. So we talked about this before. Context, Elliot, Harry, give us context. What is Better With a Man? What is she about, you want to say?

[Ariana Grande]

So one of the members of the DY Squad family seems to take a liking to Monty. And so in order to seduce him so that he can get him into a situation where he then can kill him, he sort of seduces him through song after, I believe, deducing that he might be gay. And then this song is sort of a play on. On. On this. That situation on Monta, obviously knowing that Monty's not gay, but playing it up for the act of seducing the character and they kill him.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's. The song is. It is a bit of a throwaway song. Like it. It. It's not active. Right. There's no. Nothing happens plot wise. Ultimately.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not pushing the story forward or anything. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's just. It's more just Monty endearing himself to this dice with member. I don't even think that. I wonder if Monty is actually aware that the character is most likely gay. I'm not sure because they never. They don't outwardly say it. It's just implied through his mannerisms that he's a bit of a sissy. Which die Squith is this one. I really need to write it off.

[Matt Koplik]

We need a name chart or something like that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Henry. Henry. DY Squiff. Right. Because it's. Now that Henry's gone, life goes on for me. Yeah. Henry. How the thing about a lot of these DY squists that I don't think is ever really mentioned, but it's just sort of. You have to kind of just know this is that certain wealthy families in England. I mean, wealthy families everywhere. Everywhere but England specifically. Like, there's a family business that ultimately pays for everyone in the family to sort of live. And some people join that business. Some people use that money to start their own thing. And some people just sort of take that money and. And live. And Henry is that like. Henry is the. Is the relative who lives comfortably, if not extravagantly, and uses that money to live with his sister in a nice garden filled with lavenders, flowers and. And beekeeping. He's. I. We use this term in the. In the Fat Ham episode. But he's soft. He's a soft person. And I think the show doesn't ever say, like, look at this homo. Like, clearly he likes men, but so it's all like implication. They never. By never saying it, but making. By alluding to it. It's more about how you interpret it. Right. It's.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the show deals. It's. I mean, it's not my place to say whether someone finds it offensive or not, but like the whole show is such. It's all about light touches. Like the comedy, like we've been saying is. Is so. It's so. It is soft. Like the show itself feels very soft with how it tackles all the material throughout in a way that I feel as though it never would. The show never, like you said, never gets carried away with trying to define anything. In fact, I feel like the whole. The title of the song is the joke in of itself. Right? Like that. It's just the innuendo. The audience knows what it is before it happens. So the show doesn't have to be like, this character is, you know, falls under this stereotype in, you know, the audience kind of just does it themselves, I think through.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There's no. Yeah, there's no lyric that's talking about, like, you know, it's great sex with a man and like. And saying like, isn't that funny? No, they're talking about male companionship, friendship, and having fun with the wordplay and the double entendres of. Of that of certain rowdy male camaraderie that can be interpreted as queer under different circumstances. And because Henry is so fae, we, you know, we get the implication pretty immediately. Yeah. I never get the concept that it's mocking homosexuality. It's just having fun at Henry's expense.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I mean, Jefferson Mays, you know, fantastic performer. I mean, like, I don't think he could do it in an offensive way. You know, I mean, he's just so endearing to watch.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Henry isn't. Henry isn't funny because he's effeminate. He's funny because he's ridiculous.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Like, we meet him and he's on what can only be described as an Edwardian scooter and like, greeting the birds in the sky like he's bell in Beauty and the Beast. Hello, birds, hello sky. And like, you just see him, you're like, what a noob. You know? Yeah. Because I think something that Friedman does with this, which I should watch the movie to know if they do this with Alec Guinness. Because the other thing is the reason why Jefferson Mays plays all of the Di Squiff family members is because Alec Guinness played all the family members and they are adapting the movie. He makes it a point for him to make sure that the majority of the DY Squiff family sucks. So we don't feel sad about any of their murders. Those that are actually kind don't get murdered. They like the. What's his name? Asquith. Lord Asquith. Asquith Senior.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He gets the noble death of a heart attack. So nature and not through the planning of Monty. And it's because he's ultimately an empathetic, as kind as a person of his station can be. Person. Henry is not nasty, but he is out of touch like the rest of his family and. And has no problem benefiting from his family screwing over the common man for their own financial gain. He feigns ignorance. And then when he turns around, you know that he actually. You realize he knows everything that's going on and just doesn't care because he wants to do his beekeeping.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I think we all can relate to the like, shut up and leave me alone mentality, but I, I would have a harder time with that if I knew that my hobbies were being financed by screwing over hundreds of hard working people. Yeah. So that, like, small detail allows us to be okay with Henry just getting weirdly murdered by a hundred bees, a full Macaulay Culkin and my girl. Yeah. Harry, what do you think of, of Better With a Man?

[Ariana Grande]

I like the song a lot. Like, just melodically, I, I, I really enjoy it. I do like that it's still, it is, I think the one time where Monty gets the sustained high note through the entire show, I think, which is just interesting that that's the place that they decided to put it. And there's the whole, it's, it's really funny watching. I remember them both on the scooter and very suggestively scooting the scooter at the same time in the same way. It was, it was very funny. Again, I like Elliot. I don't, I can't really speak to, you know, if somebody finds it offensive. It worked for me and I guess, you know, 10 years ago is a different time. There were things that were made in 2014 that certainly could be considered offensive now, but it's definitely one of the ones I, the song itself is one of the ones I would mainly play on repeat. I just think the, the actual song itself is one of my favorites in the show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I mean, it's just. So sorry, I was, as you were saying that I was also trying to like, like clock. Someone had commented on Better with the man and they're like, I don't find the humor of the show offensive, but like, I do find this song problematic. I'm like, I don't think the song's problematic unless that's not the song they're referring to. But there's, I, I would love to know whoever wrote that, what if that's not the song? If it's a different song. There's no song here that I find problematic because also I think the original production's concept of it not being a show within a show, but, but having that theatrical design about it of like a stage on a stage gives it that music hall element, makes the whole thing give, you know, give you the implication of it's not so serious. It is all just pretend. It's all just silly and everyone here is in the wrong at some point. So just like let go and let God, Right, yeah. Someone also wrote. Which is the question. Someone writes, why was Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder so popular, despite being a style of music we haven't seen in a long time? I'm sure that contributed to why it's kind of forgotten. But why did it get so big in the first place? Was it the novelty? What does its ultimate failure mean for people with voices that suit that style of music more than the usual contemporary style? Especially women? Considering how the female leads both have done, like, no show since then, I don't think that's fair. Lisa O'Hare has. Hasn't done a lot of Broadway since then, if any, but she's worked a bunch because I think Lisa's also British, so she works a lot overseas. Lauren more transitioned into producing from everything I can tell. Lauren Worsham, who played.

[Ariana Grande]

She's in LA right now. She's actually doing a performance, a cabaret performance with a guy who I take tap lessons with. So that's. But she. Yeah, it's like a one night or no two night, like, cabaret curated show that I know she's performing in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Are you gonna go fangirl?

[Ariana Grande]

I. I would, but we have a show running the exact same weekend, so I can't make it out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Booked and blessed. Booked and blessed. She. Lauren, I remember when the show was on Broadway, they had an article about her because she was doing this classic operetta style music, but she also was the lead singer of a rock band. And they're like, yeah, yeah. Which is, like, does very well. And her husband wrote the book for spring for SpongeBob SquarePants and I think with Gentleman's Guide, because she had worked a lot before then, just never on Broadway. She was Olive in the spelling bee tour. She did. She worked at Goodspeed. She worked at, I think, Kennedy Center. Like, worked in a lot of different spaces as a classic soprano. And then with Gentleman's Guide, she did like one major production of Showboat and then slowly kind of stepped aside. And I do think just sort of took a more active role in creating stuff and not just auditioning to be in stuff. And Lisa, from what I can tell, just went back to London. So the question was, sorry, you're gonna.

[Ariana Grande]

Say, oh, I think it could be just like moving to la. Like, I know, I know. She, she. I believe she lives out here in LA now. And I know that a lot of musical theaters do that and then try to transition to screen acting. I was just reading about George Hearn, about how he tried to do it, and it went Horribly for him. And Sunset Boulevard brought him back to New York after, like years of failure trying out here. And then I am with Jefferson Mays was out here for film and tv, which is how we met him. So I, I think, I think maybe, and I have no, I don't know her at all, but I would assume that maybe she came out here to try and, and do film and television and might still be doing it and maybe even had some roles in some television shows. But I. That would be my assumption.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's possible. I mean, it's, first of all for the listeners. People can be doing a lot and just not have it necessarily be Broadway. Like, I know a few of the original Spring Awakening kids who actually worked for like 10 years after spring Awakening, just like never on a Broadway show again. But, like did off Broadway, did regional, did workshops, did commercials, tv, things like that. So you can be working all the time. But also with Tony nominations because of the two, Lauren's one that got the nomination, which I know some people are also said on the Discord surprised them because they thought Sibella was the more interesting role. Although I think Lisa got the Outer Critics Circle nomination. Lauren got the Drama Desk nomination, but then won the Drama Desk and got the Tony nomination. So it's just fascinating how all of these early awards bodies just like, move in ways that were like, oh, that was an interesting vote you did. But the question about its success and if and supposed failure after the fact. I don't think Gentleman's Guide has been forgotten necessarily. It's definitely been done since Broadway. I think the idea is more like, considering it was such an underdog success story, running a little over two years, winning the Tony, making money, having a national tour, like, why isn't it done more? I do think the music is one thing. We don't train actors in that style of singing as much as we used to the actor. The people who are trained in that style of singing maybe aren't trained as actors to do that style of comedy. So it's, it's a. Definitely a hard show to cast.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I think the costumes as well for the Dice Squid family like to really pull off those costume changes you need, like, unless you're going to do some minimalist production, like you need, you need the ability to have big costumes that can just zip up and zip off.

[Matt Koplik]

Jamie Lloyd, Gentleman's Guide when there you go.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly what's that going to happen, Jamie? But I think that's also the problem with any period musical, right. Is in order to do it justice, you do have to put it. Put money into the design of it. And unless you're like My Fair lady or King and I, a lot of theater companies aren't going to put in that kind of dough. Because while Gentleman's Guide was successful, My Fair lady and King and I are like major titles that people will flock to see. Right. Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

I wonder why Gentleman's Guide never had a London run. I don't know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Maybe that's. Maybe that's the next step. Maybe they're afraid that London will see it and go, oh, this is what Americans think. London is, not what it actually is.

[Matt Koplik]

Come on, they did American Psycho. It's only fair.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly. It's true. Well, maybe. Maybe something with the rights then, because of the movie. Because the. The movie is owned by a British film company. So maybe they just can't.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Maybe they can't legally do it there right now, but one day, hopefully.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I think. I think as well, it's like, you know, you were talking earlier about Jefferson Maze's role. It's not necessarily. Necessarily like, you sing a lot, but it's really, you know, you need an actor who sings. But then the other roles are all very, like, they have to sing really well, just as well as they act.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And.

[Matt Koplik]

And, yeah, you kind of need. You kind of really need to have, I think, a full creative team that's, like, very diverse in the. The. Their, you know, talents. And that's not to put down a lot of those classic shows, but, you know, some of the classic shows, you know, you can get away with them if you're just all really beautiful singers and you're just. You look nice on stage.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it sounds really minimizing those other shows, but, you know, I don't intend for it to be that way. It's like, it's just. I just think it's a hard show to do. Right, Gentleman's Guide.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Well, I mean, you. You can defend a dramatic performance if that maybe isn't working for people of saying like, well, no, if you analyze it this way, here's why it's working. It's really hard to defend a comedic performance if nobody's laughing.

[Matt Koplik]

Right, Right, Exactly. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So for Gentleman's Guide, it's like, well, okay, rather like My Fair lady, you have an Eliza who can sing the absolute bejesus out of it maybe is like a 6 out of 10. As an actor, you can kind of get away with it because Eliza doesn't have a ton of jokes. There's no metric for an audience to understand how the acting is going in Gentleman's Guide. If you're Sabella and Phoebe and your Monty's aren't getting laughs like, no, they're failing. They can sing it beautifully, but they are failing. And that is very difficult. I. Yeah, I think it's a surprisingly expensive show to put on. As Harry said. I think that it is vocally tricky. I don't think that this style of music was a novelty for it, for its Broadway success so much as that just, it was a. It was just different from everything else around it. Part of that is the music, but part of that is also the style and the subject matter. They also had a really strong marketing campaign that emphasized how fun and silly the show was.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, the whole picture of the piano falling on the dude. That was a strong, strong photo.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. And they used to do, I remember they used to do these like 60 second commercials that was like, this is the plot in less than 60 seconds. And they had these cut out graphics that they would put on the screen to sort of illustrate what was, what happens in the show. It was all just very clever and very fun and very silly, but like, in a, in an intelligent way. It's hard to find actors these days who can give you, I don't say noises off because it's not that kind of farcical, but like, I will other for poops and giggles, noises off level of British humor as well as sing with the clarity of Pirates of Penzance. Like we're getting a Pirates of Penzance this season, but they are tweaking the music and from what I understand, it's not gonna be as classical sounding, as original as originally done. And so part of that is, I'm sure, like artistic interpretation. And part of that is I don't know if they feel confident that they can gather a cast that can sing it as originally written. So they're like, well, let's just mess around with it because we can do that now. Yeah. I think that the music has kept Gentleman's Guide in the conversation. Just in terms of, as we were saying, like it's, it's a, it's a style of music that you don't get to sing often and it allows different kinds of voices to be heard. But it, it. There's no song in Gentleman's Guy that's gonna get Tick Tock famous or it's gonna bring the house down at cabarets.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. And I also imagine it's a show that like, you know, a lot of artists appreciate, like People who, like, see a lot of musicals and they're like, ooh, this is fresh. But, like, if you're. If you're somebody who isn't familiar with so many musicals, it might kind of feel little bit more, like, weird and. And maybe that's a misread, but I feel like, you know, it's a lot. It's a lot easier to fall in love with, you know, a lot of the other classics. And then, you know, for theater companies across the country, they might just prefer to do those because they're. They're a lot easier to sell than Gentleman's Guide to audiences that aren't familiar with a lot of the. You know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I mean, I think. Are you guys familiar with Mystery of Edwin Drood?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah, I love Druid.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Have. Were. Have you been in it?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, I did it at Stage Door Manor. You're a Stage door guy, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I am a stage door guy who's going right here. Stage Door Manor Performing Arts Center. You say so, actually. So you love it, and you've been in it, Elliot, have you been in it?

[Matt Koplik]

I've not been in it, but I saw this guy in it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And. And would you say that it's a favorite of yours now, or.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I. I really like it. I really like it. I. I would. I say it's, like, one of my favorites. Maybe not, but I. But I really do love it.

[Ariana Grande]

Moonfall is just so.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, there's some. There's a lot of great stuff in there. But my theory is that anyone who says that Drood is one of their favorite musicals most likely has been in it, because that is a show. That is a show that is. It is a fun show to sit through, but it is more fun for the actors in the show.

[Matt Koplik]

I feel that.

[Ariana Grande]

I feel absolutely.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And so to go off what you're saying, Elliot, like, I do think actors who've been in Gentleman's Guide will probably die for that show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And there are audiences who still very much love that show, but it's. Yeah. It is not the show of the masses.

[Ariana Grande]

It's.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's not, like, major crowd appeal kind of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it's the show of the niche, but it's. But it's. Because it's not, like, dark subject matter. Or it is dark subject matter told lightly. But, like, it's not a dark musical. It's not a weird musical. So it's not like you can say, oh, I love the esoteric stuff. Like, I love Sweeney Todd. I love Passion. I Love Assassins. It's like, I love it. It's like, I love the weird things, the things that only 10 people know, like A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder. Don't you want to use your niche card for something a little, like, darker? And so, I don't know. I think that. I feel like it's hard to necessarily say the impact or legacy of shows as young as gentleman's guide because 10 years is not that much time to see how long something has lasted. I think things go in and out of favor all the time with Broadway, and especially of this century. Broadway musicals will burn really hot when they're on Broadway, and then once they close, the majority of them are not spoken of with the fervor with which they were when they were running.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, I'm trying to think of a musical last couple of years that just had so much momentum or, like, had a passionate fan base. There are so many musicals that are beloved by the young theater fans, and I love their passion. I love how into it they get. But they go in so hard on one show a season, and when that show goes away or a new show comes in, all their focus goes onto the next show. So it's easy to forget just how big Mean Girls was for a year on Broadway because it's popular now, because it's now being licensed, but it's. It was. It was a movement for, like, a certain group of theater fans. And once Beetlejuice came in, the next year, Beetlejuice absolutely replaced.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so true.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And I mean, I would say now, like, six replaced Beetlejuice, and now the Outsiders has replaced six. And something's gonna come in a year or two that's gonna replace the Outsiders. And it's not a knock on those shows, but you do wonder, like, some of those shows are better than others. Like, if everything were 15% stronger, maybe their impact would have a little bit longer of an impression, you know?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's tough. I do think another. This is a statement that's not always true, but I. I do find that. That, like, good art will find a way of rising to the top. And I do think that Gentleman's Guide is a really, really strong piece. And so even if it's not, like, the most popular or the most app. The general audiences, just because it's such a strong, well structured work of art, I think it's. That's what really made it popular at the time. And. But I know there's a lot of shows like that that are great, that never got their due. But, but in that case, I just think it's the sheer strength of the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And also. Yeah. Similarly. And it's, I guess it's hard to admit as a fan, but like, even if a show does fail or doesn't do as well as you'd hope, it's not necessarily a flaw of the show. And you know, there's a whole, like you said, who, it's only 10 years. The future life. The whole, the whole show has a whole life ahead of it, longer than we will be around. And you know, and that's, I guess, the point of art. Right. And so who knows what will happen with Gentleman's Guide in the future. And, and I think that sort of line of thinking could inspire people who, who do love these lesser known shows to, to do something with them and keep them present in the conversations like we're having now.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Like your podcast is, is designed to keep shows in the conversation so that we don't forget about some of the, the ones that people do love and don't get put on as much.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And, and to, and to explore them in a way that maybe haven't, hasn't been done since they were last on Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know anymore. I, I, I, I've been doing this podcast for so long and I feel like sometimes I talk myself in circles about topics or shows and this is one where I rem, I remember liking it so much when I saw it and being supportive of its success and people still talking about it for a while and people kind of didn't forget about it. But other shows came down the pike and that was, that was the center of the conversation at that point. And when this got picked out of the bowl, I was happy and also hesitant because I was like, I remember really liking it. I don't remember that much about it. Is this going to hold up? Am I going to be excited about it again? And when I was rewatching it the first 20 minutes, I went, oh no, is this not as good as I remembered? And then it picked up. I was like, no, this is still really, really good. And yeah, I think that in order for this show to, in order for its legacy to be defined, we do have to give it a bit more time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And especially because now, now is a tricky spot for a theater being that, you know, it needs to have commercial aspects to really be, you know, reasonable to put on nowadays because it's it's hard to put on something that is, that doesn't immediately like say shout. I'm gonna sell really well. Yeah. And I guess I was going to ask this earlier but. But now is a good time as well. I'm curious your thoughts on this. Their whole plan about waiting for the Tonys and how that hasn't been really recreatable by any production sense. Is that due to the strength of like what Tonys mean nowadays? Like, is it possible that now like the Tony means a little bit less and it's more about like what the general mass appeal or TikTok or whatever is talking about?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Billy, I'd like to dip it with you.

[Ariana Grande]

How do you mean?

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. The Tonys matter until they don't. And they don't matter until they do. Same thing with critics, right? It's, I don't know of any show that couldn't connect with an audience that got a critics pick in the Times and then all of a sudden like became an overnight sensation in the last like 20 years. I think the, the ultimate thing to keep a show going is word of mouth. And what is ultimately killing the possibility of a show succeeding is prices. Ticket prices are just, are so insane and people want as close to a sure thing as, as they can get. So Tony's help in a sense that it is like, it's like a Yelp review of like the, of the most prestigious Yelp reviewer you can find. If you're going to take a chance on a Chinese food restaurant and make sure you're not going to get food poisoning, you're like, okay, well what did Egg Roll 92 say? Because they are a hard person to please. Oh, they gave it four out of five stars. I think we were going to be, we're going to have a good time here. And so it's not enough to win the Tony anymore. You have to win a couple of Tonys and it has to be on the heels of, of a cluster of reviews. Like critics only really make an impact if on mass they agree on a show now and if it's coming on the heels of a lot of buzz. So for example, oh, Mary is on Broadway right now and that is probably not probably, that is objectively the, the, the best selling new show of the season. And talk about, by the way, people saying, oh, we, we only want to make sure something's Getting commercial. The most successful productions right now are the shows that no one thought were going to be successful. Yeah. Oh, Mary moving to Broadway from off Broadway. I know I was somebody who was skeptical about it of like, how is that going to go over with larger audiences? This 80 minute queer fantasia where Mary Todd Lincoln is an alcoholic wannabe cabaret star. Like, how does, how do you sell that to Becky from Greendale? And it's clearing a million dollars every week. No problem. Sunset Boulevard. So odd in how they're approaching the show of what is not the most beloved musical to begin with. And it's. And the reviews were very divided, but it is selling. It is becoming an event here. And where is it going with this? Oh, but so with Omar, Omarry came to Broadway with the buzz of the Off Broadway run. Tickets were already becoming scarce because they made the very smart decision of starting previews. During Pride. They were doing publicity with Popper's bottle saying, like, oh, you know, buy your rush tickets now. Very smart, clever marketing. And then all the reviews were collectively very positive, which just reinforced to people who are on the fence about paying $300. Well, if these 10 critics all said so, then sure, like let's, let's go do it. It becomes this runaway train, I think. Gentleman's Guide. If Gentleman's Guide had opened in April, like two weeks before the Tony nominations with their swell of good reviews, then the 10 nominations on top of that, and then winning for a month later with their strong Tony performance, I think you can make an argument that it would have run a thousand performances instead of 900, which is only a difference of 100 performances. But that's 12 weeks. You know, three extra months of like straight sold out houses. It's building momentum is ultimately the important thing. And however you go about doing it helps. TikTok. TikTok I don't think sells tickets. TikTok I think helps with streaming. Like, I think if somebody went viral doing something from Gentleman's guide on TikTok, that would drive the cast album up, which would ultimately get a better conversation. Yeah. So does anything I say make sense?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sorry. I black out sometimes on my tangents and then I finish and I go, what? Who am I?

[Ariana Grande]

Where did I go now that I'll try.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know. What do you guys think? Do you think that there's time for this show's legacy to be crystallized? Do you think that there's a disconnect between it and the current trends of making certain shows trend online?

[Ariana Grande]

I Think it's gonna like. Another one of my favorite shows is City of Angels, which I, I don't know, like, like I don't know the exact history of it, but it won best musical and you know, nobody really talks about it anymore. It's never really done, but it still exists and there are people who really like it. I feel like this show may be like the same thing. I, I don't know because it's a very different show. But they are also kind of light hearted comedies that aren't like that are, that are just a little different than what you would expect them to be. But I feel like if I had to guess away it would be kind of like that. Probably, probably mostly not talked about and just people will remember it fondly for winning the Tony. That'd be my guess.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think both shows have a penchant for cleverness, which is really admirable, but not always something that makes it a must see, you know what I mean? It's because City of Angels is a satire on Hollywood in a very cheeky, very clever way. City of Angels also is very expensive to do, which I think is what's prohibited from getting revived anytime soon as costs rise. But yeah, the, the. Neither show is necessarily hilarious to the extent of something like a Noises off, which is physical and zany. And neither show is emotional to the extreme of something like Les Mis or like sweeping melodies. They, they exist in a very specific corner of the room and I think that there's a market for that. But it doesn't necessarily make it a worldwide phenomenon. It doesn't make it a let's revive this every 15 years kind of show. It's like, I think both shows have opportunities to strike and both of those original productions were sort of, as you said earlier, Elliot, like lightning in a bottle of not only the craft of how they were done, but of when they came out. And in order for them to come back, there has to be a good circumstance for them to open up, open it again. Like they can't just be revived willy nilly. Like there's got to be a need for that show again.

[Ariana Grande]

Like, yeah, I feel like if a gentleman's guy were to come back, I think it would probably just be like a celebrity wanting to really do the eight dice with roles and, and then which. Because it's a very alluring acting challenge, I think for anybody. And if that were to happen, it could certainly get a lot bigger. I don't think that's like completely out of the question since like I Think this year on Broadway is an insane amount of celebrities. I feel like way more celebrities are trying to come to the stage. And I do think that's one of the most attractive parts to, like, an actor, like someone who really wants to be an actor.

[Matt Koplik]

And especially. And especially because they don't need to, you know, belt their faces off for the role. It could. It could attract someone, like, very famous who's never even done a musical before.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Absolutely. Yeah. It's. It is a good showcase for an actor. And because it's fun, it's less. I don't. I think maybe there's less pressure to succeed because you can just sort of chalk it up to the experience. I don't know if you guys have seen the Little Shop revival that's in New York.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, we saw with Bryce Bingham, right?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Ah, that's keeping the connection to Gentleman's Guy going. I had a friend ask me, like, how they were able to get so many big names to do it throughout the run. Because it's an off Broadway contract, they're not making a lot of money. And I said, I think a lot of. We underestimate just how many actors want a safe space to do a good show and have fun doing it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that's so true.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And to show an audience, you know, a different side to themselves. So. Yeah, I think that's true, Harry. Like, if you could find a celebrity who really just wants to do those eight roles, like, heavy, heavy task that it is, but just show off versatility, show off energy, show off spunk, show off their weirdness, it's a great opportunity for them. I think you can also find a solid amount of theater actors with respectable clout who would want to do it. Show off different sides to their voices, different sides to their acting personality. I mean, yes, the Mean Girls and the Beetlejuices and the Proms and. And be more chills, get the tick tock views. But at some point you're gonna age out of playing a teenager, so you gotta show that you can do other things. So, like, Kyle Selig would totally be great for Monty Navarro. Like, have him show off a little bit more of that classical side to his singing voice and the mannered refinement that he doesn't get to do in something like Water for Elephants or Mean Girls or Book of Mormon. I mean, that's just the name I pulled out of my butt. But something like somebody like that alongside of. I don't know. Part of me was thinking Tom Hollander. Is that the dude from White Lotus and.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, that's a good pick. That's a good pick.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I don't know if he's quite famous enough for it, but, like, he.

[Ariana Grande]

That would be.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think the two of them would do a good job with it. Or. I. I'm just trying to think because we. You see all this stuff in Hollywood right now of all these actors trying to buckle. Typecasting. And if they're going to do typecasting, they want to do it in something that's commenting on that. It's typecasting. Like Margot Robbie's. Like, if I'm going to play stereotypical Barbie, we're going to make it a point that I'm stereotypical Barbie.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But most actors are like, no, let me de glam. Let me glam up. Let me do comedy instead of drama. Let me do musicals instead of comedies. And I think you can entice a lot of different actors with this kind of show because it's so different from everything else out there.

[Ariana Grande]

I feel like a sketch comedian would be really good in it. Like, my first thought I would be like somebody like Bob Odenkirk or something. But then again, you're right in that they want to do something different. Like, clearly he's going to do Glengarry Glen Ross because he's a dramatic actor now, but so maybe a dramatic actor would want to. It would be a better fit for a dramatic actor.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, Sam Rockwell, I mean, the first that just popped into my head, I was like, why haven't we had Will Ferrell do this yet? Yeah, like. Like, this is absolutely his vibe. I don't think he's doing much acting anymore. I think he really enjoys randomly DJing at his son's college parties. Someone like him or Steve Carell. These comedic actors who we know are so versatile and have played so many roles in different movies. And if you're Will Ferrell, like nine roles in one movie. But like Mike Myers, I suppose. But yeah, I think that. But yeah, I just. I just think it's. It's very enticing, very attractive to that kind of actor. And we should make it a point to reach out to them at some point in time.

[Matt Koplik]

Let's do it. Let's do it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Shall we? Yeah, we're gonna make it the next Foster Cat productions. Anything else you guys want to talk about with Gentleman's Guide before we eventually sign off?

[Ariana Grande]

Well, stage door, Manor connection. I put that on my list for shows them to do my last two years, really hoping. And I never did it.

[Matt Koplik]

Me too.

[Ariana Grande]

Me. My biggest bummers of my life.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What. What shows did you guys do at Stage Door?

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, God. Dirty Ron. Scoundrels. Edge, Rude. How to Succeed in Business. One man, two governors. That was one. That was fun.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Seriously, you guys did One man, two governors?

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So jealous. What about you? Wait, Ellie, did you go as well?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I. Yeah, I did.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did.

[Matt Koplik]

I did. I went. I. I started my. I started theater, like, in my sophomore year of high school, so I only got two full years of Stage Door, so a lot less shows than him, but I did. My first one was Aida. Gasp.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did Aida as well. I was the first cast of Aida.

[Matt Koplik]

No way.

[Ariana Grande]

Who did you play?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was the Pharaoh. I wore. You were. You were the Pharaoh too?

[Matt Koplik]

The Pharaoh's not the father, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, no, no. Oh, yeah. No, I. I wasn't the father. I was pharaoh. I was 15, so I was too young to play, like, any of the principal roles in that. But they had me in a white headdress with a white cape and a white skirt with red and blue lines down the middle. And after the performance, one of my friends came up to me and said, you looked like a giant tampon. I was like, no lies detected.

[Matt Koplik]

That's good. That's good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Aida.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Aida. I did a play, Hounds of Baskerville. The Sherlock Holmes for sure. And I did Avenue Q as well.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, that's nice. I remember when we did Avenue Q for the first time. I'm. Again, I'm so much older than you guys, so all the shows that you're talking about, I was like, yes, I remember when we premiered that I did so, like, the ones where I had roles because they did a couple of shows where I was in the ensemble, but I was Barnaby in hello, Dolly. I was Seymour in Little Shop. I was one of the piano gay brothers in Wild Party, and I was Bat Boy. Those were my fun.

[Ariana Grande]

Fun. Yeah, you put. Where did you put your name with your credits? Which theater?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I had. I did it in two theaters. I think I did it in the LC and the Oasis. I definitely did the Oasis because we christened the Oasis with Bat Boy. So, like, I had a whole.

[Matt Koplik]

Can I tee you up to tell the bad boy story? You can tell him to cut it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If you don't want.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm not cutting anything so far. I'm happy with everything we got.

[Ariana Grande]

They did Bad Boy in the way since my last year, and me and my buddy, we were very unhappy with the show selection because, you know, how you could kind of find out what the shows are before they do them. We were very unhappy with the show selection, so we went through and we checked off the shows that we didn't want to be in because it says, have you been in these before? So we said, yes, yes, yes, yes. Even though we hadn't. And I don't know why. I just didn't really want a new bad boy. So I checked it off, and then they called me back in after my audition and said, you were in Bat Boy? And I said, yeah. And they're like, who did you play in Bat Boy? And me and my friend just kind of made up characters we didn't know were there for that and a couple of the other shows, and we definitely got in a lot of trouble for that last year.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I know that they eventually got more serious about following up about that kind of stuff, because the only reason I got Bat Boy, we were. That was the summer where they were premiering Bat Boy. They were doing Rent again, even though they had just done it this summer before. And they were doing. Yeah, they were doing Les Mis, and they were doing something else, but, oh, I think Guys and Dolls. And I was supposed to be Mark. This is according to two directors that summer who. Who informed us afterwards. I was supposed to be Mark. Someone else was supposed to be Valjean. Someone else was supposed to be Bat Boy, Someone else was supposed to be Roger. And the guy they had. They intended to have be Valjean had already done Les Mis, and he didn't want to do it again, so he checked off Les Mis. And then the kid who was going to be Bat Boy didn't want to do Bat Boy, so he said that he had done Batboy, and they had to do this whole big switcheroo. So the original Roger became Valjean, I became Bat Boy, the Bat Boy became Nathan Detroit, and the Valjean ended up being in Bat Boy as, like, a lesser role. And it was this whole thing, and we all were happy with our parts, and we didn't know until, like, the end of the summer when, like, two directors told us afterwards, because it was like the last night at camp when everyone's crazy and they were drunk and they were like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't supposed to be any of you. Right? And they informed us of the switch, so drama everywhere.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, man, I hope they're listening.

[Matt Koplik]

Love you, Barb.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I don't. I think they sometimes listen. I was informed that Cindy Samuelson knows about the podcast and approves of it. I don't speak negatively of stage or. I love that place. I love how weird it is. I love how when you're there, everything is life or death. I love how we all remember this. That doesn't matter.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. And I also think, I think, I think putting up a show in like three weeks and doing it, you know, multiple times is something. You go back to your, you know, normal high school theater friends and you're kind of like, yeah, yeah, what are you guys doing here?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, like, they do a show in four months in high school and you're like, excuse me, what's hard? Like, you should have been open two months ago. I also love. I don't know what it's like now. I loved at the time how often we did shows that were inappropriate. Not, like, obviously race stuff, but playing, like old married couples at 16. Like when they did Follies, I was like, yes, they should always be doing Follies. That is the whole reason stage door exists.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, go ahead. Like, there should be a 15 year old mama Rose out there. Like, do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. I was, I remember my last year, I was like, I'm begging them to do the full Monty, which was so dumb because why would they do that at a children's at the end, but they just cut the nudity at the end? I would. You know what? Like, come on. I was praying they would do it for me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I remember we really wanted. My friend Lucas and I were begging them to do producers with us because Lucas and I had been there for so long and it was his last summer before he left, and I, I was gonna have one more summer. But we're like, come on, like, you love us. You've given us roles in the past. You know, we can do it. Like, just give us producers, give us producers, give us producers. They wouldn't do it. It wasn't until the following summer when Lucas had left and it was third session, so I was gone. And then they did the producers and we were like.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, tough, tough luck.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But when you said dirty around scoundrels, I remember writing that in every summer, like three years, and they never did it. So I was like, how dare they finally do the shows that I wanted?

[Ariana Grande]

That was our premiere. That was the stage premiere about that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, you. When people. I know I was guilty of this too. When you do your resume on the wall and on top, you're like, this is what this symbol means. Otc. This symbol means premier cast.

[Ariana Grande]

Premier cast.

[Matt Koplik]

Premier cast. We're all up for our cast.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. Well, it's why, like, I laugh at the Broadway community because I'm like, it's just stage door with paychecks. Like, that's all that it is. Yeah, it's all fun, though. It's all fun and games. Gentlemen, this has been wonderful.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, likewise.

[Ariana Grande]

So much fun. Thanks for having us.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, thank you for coming on. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Matt Koplik]

You can follow us at Foster Cat Productions, where, you know, we're always doing plays in Los Angeles. Right now we're working on plays by Pablo Picasso, the painter. No one really knows he wrote plays. We did our own translation from French and Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

Foster Cat productions dot com.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, Amazing. If you want to follow me, guys, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star review or rating. By this point, the play will have done its reading, so you won't have to hear me talk about fundraising anymore. But you can also still join the Discord Channel. That is the link for that will be in the description for the episode. Elliot Harry. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva that I will enter in post. Who do you want to close out your episode?

[Ariana Grande]

I gotta say, being in la, we go to Universal Studios a lot where they film Murder She Wrote. So Angela Lansbury.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sorry, that did not go any which way. I expected.

[Matt Koplik]

What were you expecting?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I wasn't expecting you to say Universal Studios, and then I wasn't expecting you to name drop Murder She Wrote after saying Universal Studios. So it just was. It just zigged and then it zagged. So Angela Lansbury, 1,000%. Thank you. I want that. I want that right now. So that's what we're gonna do. Thank you guys again for doing this and thank you all for listening. And join us next week for God knows what. I'm recording all of this out of order. Until then, take it away, Angie. Bye. I can tell Wait and see There's a bell Follow me and nothing's gonna stop us still we're through, honey Everything's coming up roses and daffodils Everything's coming up sunshine and Santa Claus Everything.