AIDA w/ Will Van Dyke

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: AIDA (w/ Will Van Dyke)

Podcast Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Will Van Dyke
Episode Date: March 7, 2024

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Overview

In this episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik and guest Will Van Dyke—composer, music director, and Broadway music aficionado—take a passionate, unfiltered, and deeply analytical deep dive into Disney's Aida (music by Elton John, lyrics by Tim Rice). The discussion spans the musical's history, its complicated legacy, why it’s considered “problematic,” memorable performances, casting, score, and its contemporary relevance.

This episode is part of the “Problematic Question” series, which tackles shows that have faced criticism and examines whether they can or should be “redeemed.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Personal Histories with Aida [03:38–08:23]

• First Encounters:
  Will recalls seeing Aida on tour in Boston, then countless times on Broadway as a student—“I would student rush it at least once every two weeks.”
  Matt shares his own teenage obsession during the 1999–2000 Broadway season, which included Aida, Kiss Me, Kate, and The Music Man.
• The Cast of Rotating Stars:
  Recalling the starry parade of replacements: Heather Headley, Sherie Rene Scott, Adam Pascal, Deborah Cox, Michelle Williams, Idina Menzel (“her first performance was the first performance after 9/11, coincidence? I think not, no”).

“The replacements on this original Broadway production are astronomical. They're bonkers.”
– Matt [05:34]

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2. Plot Overview and Structure [09:39–16:10]

• Basic Story:
  Set in ancient Egypt and Nubia; Aida (a Nubian princess) is enslaved but falls in love with Radames, an Egyptian captain betrothed to Princess Amneris. A tragic love triangle ensues.
• Disney vs. Verdi:
  The musical reimagines Verdi’s opera, opening in a museum, drawing thematic connections via reincarnation.
• Notable Moments:
  Amneris’s character is reinvented as a fashion-obsessed society girl; finale sees Radames and Aida buried alive together (but united), courtesy of a merciful Amneris.

“These straight people will. They are messy.”
– Matt [11:55]

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3. The Score: The Real Star of Aida [15:03–29:45]

• Musical Praise:
  Will and Matt gush about the score’s strength (“there are like, two skips”), singling out the massive contributions from music director/arranger Paul Bogaev and collaborators.
• Concept Album Oddities:
  They reminisce about the eclectic pre-Broadway concept album featuring the Spice Girls, Tina Turner, Boyz II Men, and others.
• Heather Headley’s Impact:
  Repeatedly hailed for her visceral vocal style and “talent alien” magnetism.

"The thing about Aida is the score is just so good. It's so unnecessarily good."
– Will [15:03]

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4. Production & Out-of-Town Drama [34:32–51:53]

• Developmental Hurdles:
  Aida started as Disney’s planned animated film (based on Leontyne Price’s children’s book) before morphing into a stage musical.
• Costly Tryouts:
  Tryouts in Atlanta and Chicago were plagued by technical difficulties (collapsing sets, malfunctioning pyramids).
• Broadway Overhaul:
  Robert Falls and Bob Crowley were brought in to “class up” the show. Key songs were rewritten; an MTV-era aesthetic was embraced with sexier, poppier staging.

"It gives me Hunchback vibes... but I think Hunchback goes a little too dark sometimes... But Aida does deal with some heavy shit."
– Matt [51:27]

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5. Thematic & Social Critiques: Why Is Aida “Problematic”? [52:09–58:10; 120:04–124:55]

• Internal Contradictions:
  The show oscillates between serious themes (slavery, colonialism, racial divides) and glitzy Disney-fied spectacle (fashion shows, MTV style).
• Casting Choices:
  Original Broadway casting defaulted to white actors as Egyptians, Black actors as Nubians, oversimplifying and perpetuating racial stereotypes.

"Looking at Aida now... it's a show where a bunch of white people are playing Egyptians, which is like... That is problematic."
– Will [53:20]

• The Book’s Flaws:
  Attempts to address the problematic power dynamics between Aida and Radames often raise more questions than answers. The romance feels under-explored and unearned compared to the musical’s emotional peaks.

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6. Heather Headley – The “Talent Alien” [71:20–86:07]

• A Star Is (Re)Born:
  Heather’s performance and Tony win are dissected as a seismic Broadway moment: “one of the finest recorded cast recordings ever.”
• “Visceral” Artistry:
  Both hosts describe her as a singer whose raw vocals and laser-focused acting “make you wonder if she’ll make the note—and she does.”

“It wasn't about [vocal acrobatics]. It was about something else. It was like, beyond. Coming from beyond.”
– Will [82:32]

• Best Actress Tony Context [71:23–77:29]:
  Matt and Will recall the stacked 2000 Best Actress lineup and emphasize how Heather’s “unexplainable star quality” made her win—and the show's legacy—inevitable.

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7. Sherie Rene Scott & Amneris: Comedy and Heart [87:30–97:36]

• Sherie’s Distinct Comic Tone:
  Her dry delivery and nuanced take on Amneris is celebrated for bringing depth to a potentially one-dimensional role.
• Iconic Moments:
  Both recall her show-stopping “I Know the Truth” and the subtle, emotionally intelligent shifts she brings to Amneris’s arc.

"She's so layered Amneris with such like, emotional intelligence... and when she drops in... you have this horrifying realization with her that her whole life is a lie. It's... amazing."
– Will [91:34]

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8. Problematic Dynamics: Love, Power, Race [98:35–140:00]

• Radames/Aida Relationship:
  The romance is recognized as deeply fraught and never quite justified by the dialogue; power imbalances and “cringe” moments abound.
• Disney’s “Cake and Eat It Too” Problem:
  The musical wants credit for addressing tough issues but defaults to spectacle and lack of follow-through.
• Legacy and Attempts at Redemption:
  Discussion of the new Aida production directed by original cast member Shelley Williams, with tweaks for gender and political awareness, and hopes for future revivals to better handle race and casting.

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9. Final Thoughts & Recommendations [143:06–146:12]

• Both hosts agree:
  • The cast album remains thrilling; start there if you’re new to Aida.
  • The show is a product of its time, full of exhilarating moments and frustrating flaws.
  • Aida is worth revisiting—but deserves honest, contemporary scrutiny.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On the Cast’s Star Factor:
  "The replacements on this original Broadway production are astronomical. They're bonkers." – Matt [05:34]
• On Elton John’s Score:
  “The thing about Aida is the score is just so good. It's so unnecessarily good.” – Will [15:03]
• On Heather Headley’s Performance:
  "That to me... while there are other vocal acrobatics... that moment [‘Gods Love Nubia’] is the one that I remember because it wasn't about [the vocals], it was about something else. It was, like, beyond. Coming from beyond.” – Will [82:32]
• On the Show’s Problematic Nature:
  “Looking at Aida now... it's a show where a bunch of white people are playing Egyptians, which is like... That is problematic.” – Will [53:20]
• On the Romance:
  "I don't understand why Aida likes either of them other than she feels sorry for them. But that's not love. That's empathy.” – Will [66:45]
• On the Fluctuating Tone:
  “We were having a very serious discussion about slavery and now we've got a fashion show with a light up dress.” – Matt [125:50]
• On Revisiting the Score:
  "Listen to that original Broadway cast recording over and over and over again. It’s so good." – Will [143:06]
• On Sherie Rene Scott’s Amneris:
  “She’s so layered Amneris with such emotional intelligence... that then when she drops in and you have this like, horrifying realization with her that her whole life is a lie, it's... amazing.” – Will [91:34]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction, Guest Welcome, What’s This Episode’s Show? — [02:13–04:38]
• What is Aida? Plot Overview, Differences from the Opera — [09:39–16:10]
• Score, Cast, and Bootleg Discussion — [15:03–29:45]
• Development, Out-of-Town Trials, Broadway Overhaul — [34:32–51:53]
• Why Aida is “Problematic”—Race, Power, Book Woes — [52:09–58:10], [120:04–124:55]
• Heather Headley as the “Talent Alien”, Tony Context — [71:20–86:07]
• Sherie Rene Scott/Amneris — [87:30–97:36]
• Casting, Race, Disney’s Choices — [120:04–124:55]
• New Revivals, Attempts to Fix Aida — [126:06–133:23]
• Final Recommendations, Last Words — [143:06–146:12]

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Conclusion

Matt and Will’s deep, rollicking, and reflective conversation underscores Aida’s remarkable music, star performances, and idiosyncratic place in Broadway history, while candidly excavating its artistic and sociopolitical landmines. Their advice: return to the cast album, remember the power of singular talents like Heather Headley and Sherie Rene Scott—and let’s remain critical and creative when reviving Aida in the future.

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Take it away, Heather...

Transcript

[A]

Sam. Every story, tale or memoir, every saga.

[B]

Or romance.

[A]

Whether true or fabricated.

[B]

Whether planned or happenstance.

[A]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question, and it is covering shows that you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a new friend to the podcast, but a friend of mine. You might know his work from Little Shop of Horrors. Pretty huamon. And you're gonna soon see his work on the upcoming the Heart of Rock and Roll. Yes. Is there a longer title? Heart of Rock and Roll?

[B]

No, it's just hard of rock and roll.

[A]

Heart of Rock and Roll. Please welcome Will Van Dyke. Hi. Hello, Will. How are you doing today?

[B]

I'm good.

[A]

I'm glad to hear it.

[B]

It's snowy.

[A]

It's very.

[B]

Can't complain.

[A]

I mean, you are in a very wintry sweater shirt.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Very colorful, too. No, you look. You look fashion, and I'm in pajama.

[B]

Bottom, so, yeah, you know, reading me.

[A]

For filth by simply existing.

[B]

Different folks, different strokes.

[A]

Mm. On that note, well, what show are we talking about today?

[B]

Aida.

[A]

Aida.

[B]

Aida. Aida.

[A]

Disney's Aida.

[B]

Disney's Aida. Not Verdi's?

[A]

No, I believe Elton John and Tim Rice's Aida.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. Is that. Was that part of the poster? I feel like it said that Elton John and Tim Rice's Aida.

[B]

It. It might have.

[A]

I want to look.

[B]

I remember I had a. A teacher in college who was an opera singer, and her biggest beef with the show was that they didn't call it something else, that they should have.

[A]

Given it a different name.

[B]

Yeah, because they were like, they could have done this story with anything. Why did they, like. Like, why didn't they do what they did with Rent?

[A]

First of all, I'm looking at the poster now. It truly was called Elton John and Tim Rice's Aida.

[B]

Well, sure, yeah.

[A]

Linda Wolverton found dead in the ditch. David Henry Huang found dead in the ditch. Well, so it did originally have a different name.

[B]

I did not know that. You're going to have a lot more information than I am about this. I just love Aida.

[A]

I know. But first of all, that's what I'm here for. We're mostly just going to talk about the show, but I do like to Include historical stuff into it. Just fun factoids. Yeah, no, it was. It was originally called Elaborate Lives.

[B]

I can see that.

[A]

Sure. And then they changed it to Aida after the infamous Atlanta tryout and they went to Chicago. That's when it became Aida again.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Yeah. Isn't that fun? How did Aida enter your chat?

[B]

Oh, well, my senior year, or I guess my junior year of high school, Elton John is the reason that I do what I do like to begin with, because I was. I was on this like weird classical music track for a long time and then I saw an Elton John concert and I was like, oh, I don't want to play classical music. And then I saw a production of into the woods that same weekend with my brother at B U Go bu and I was like, oh, I should be doing something else with my life other than classical music. And then I ended up coming to New York. But the spring before I came to New York, Aida, the first national tour, was playing at the Wang center in Boston. And I saw it and we sat in the last row of the balcony and I, at the end of act one, like, could not stand up. I was so, like freaking out about how good it was. And that's how it entered my life. And then I saw it subsequently on Broadway an embarrassing number of times because I was in New York, I was a student, and I would student rush it like at least once every two weeks.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Yeah, it was embarrassing.

[A]

How many different casts did you see?

[B]

Almost all. Probably all of them. Question mark.

[A]

Question mark.

[B]

Okay, so I definitely saw like, I saw Simone. I saw. I definitely saw Shelley Williams, like now directing the Notebook at least twice. I saw Simone. I saw. Who was it? Toni Braxton?

[A]

Deborah Cox.

[B]

Deborah Cox saw Michelle Williams, man, she sang the shit out of it. Are we cursing on this?

[A]

Do we curse? Great. Oh, we always fucking curse on this.

[B]

Michelle Williams of Destiny's Child seen, saw.

[A]

And some might even argue Heard.

[B]

Heard. Yes.

[A]

Taylor Dane.

[B]

I must have seen Taylor Dane.

[A]

Yeah. So I was looking at the first of. Guys. The replacements on this original Broadway production are astronomical. They're bonkers.

[B]

They're also bonkers. Also, I'm not that gay. Like, I was like, I was not that gay then and have subsequently become that gay. So, like, I don't actually know the people I saw. Like, I go back and like, look at the programs I had from like in my parents house. I was like, oh, what? Like that kind of thing.

[A]

But, but I mean, I was not. I was already, you know, very theater kid. Y. At the time. But there was so much I still was learning. So I didn't even know how many prominent people were going into Aida at the time. Like they would. They would advertise a lot of the new Aidas. I didn't know much about them. They never advertised the new Amneris. And there were a couple of like, pretty strong.

[B]

Yeah, I saw Felicia Finley do it. Felicia Finley will chase, like replace Adam Pascal.

[A]

Didn't Cheyenne Jackson replace at one point?

[B]

Probably.

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

That would scan.

[A]

Richard H. Blake was in it for a hot second. Matt Bogart and then famously Idina Menzel.

[B]

Idina Menzel for like five months.

[A]

Yeah. Her first performance was the first performance after 9 11. Coincidence? I think not, no. But she's talked about that because like that was her first Broadway show after Rent. She had done Wild Party the year prior, but she had sort of.

[B]

But she couldn't have done it that long because Wicked opened my sophomore year of college.

[A]

No, no, no. She. She wasn't in it that long, but she. So the show opened in March of 2000.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Sheri was the first of the trio to leave. She left in I think March or April of 01. And then Heather left that September and.

[B]

Went to make music.

[A]

Yeah. And in between Sherry leaving and Heather leaving was when Taylor Dane joined and then Adina joined literally that September right after 9 11. And I think she was in until January. And then I think it was Felicia Finlay because Manny Gonzalez closed it out. I'm pretty sure.

[B]

Yeah, that. That sounds right.

[A]

Yeah. But there have been a whole.

[B]

But Felicia Finlay did it for a very long time.

[A]

Oh yeah. Well also by that point, you know, that show ran for four and a half years. So for, you know, Taylor and Sherri only really make up a year and a half. And then Idina do less than half a year. Like that gives Felicia over two years.

[B]

That's like a hit show like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It like ran.

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, it.

[A]

Oh, did it run? It ran. And it's important to remember the palace, a 1700 seat theater and to not be a best musical winner, which we'll of course get to. But no, it runs for a year and a half. And then 911 happens, which killed a lot of Broadway shows. So for them to still run another three years after that tells you like, that show was popular. It did very well. They. Disney was not upset about how Aida did. Although there are some who would claim that Disney did not do right by that show in terms of keeping it going.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

Like post Broadway.

[B]

Oh, sure, yeah, just do that.

[A]

I mean, were plans.

[B]

I pitched this to Disney at one point and they, they wouldn't take it.

[A]

Like, they wouldn't take it.

[B]

Well, I, like, wrote a whole proposal, like, for them because I had done like a couple of of their kids shows. And I was like, I have this idea to, like, reboot Aida. But now they're doing it, or they were doing it.

[A]

They, I, I.

[B]

And then I think they like, yeah, we're gonna get to that.

[A]

Yeah, we're gonna get into. We're getting into all of it. Strap in because it's gonna be nine hours. But also, I'm not surprised that Disney didn't take it, because Disney's not known for taking it. Well, they're usually used to get giving it.

[B]

Jesus. But up, up, up, Bow.

[A]

But did you remember that there was talk that they were going to do a movie version of Aida?

[B]

No, I do not remember that. I mean, that seems like a terrible idea. It all seems like a pretty terrible idea unless they rewrite it at this point.

[A]

But the original idea was to do an animated film before it became the stage musical.

[B]

I could see an animated film of it.

[A]

Yeah. So the idea of Aida, first of all, okay.

[B]

With black and brown people. What a concept.

[A]

Well, so first of all, Will, for our uncultured fucks, what is Tim Rice's and Elton John's Aida about? Not Verity's.

[B]

Well, I mean, they're about the same thing, but in Tim Rice's and Elton John's Aida, we open in the British Museum. Question mark probably feels right.

[A]

A museum somewhere.

[B]

A museum where Amneris dress with Amneris on it. Well, two people. Two. Aida and Radames. In the future, did you see Past Lives? Yeah, let's talk about.

[A]

Of course I saw. Oh, would you rather just talk about past lives instead of Aida? Because we can't.

[B]

No, but, you know, like the concept of, like, we live our lives over and over and over again anyway, it's that. But in the British Museum, let's say that two people meet in front of the tomb, which is inexplicably inside the museum. But sure, yeah, yeah. They, they meet, we see them, and then we are launched back in time by Emneris.

[A]

And we tell through the power of belting.

[B]

Through the power of belting. And we, we hear the story of Radames, who is an Egyptian white man who kidnaps, steals and enslaves Aida. And he's engaged to Amneris. We Learn. And he gifts Aida to her.

[A]

Amneris is also the daughter of the pharaoh.

[B]

Yes, Daughter of the pharaoh.

[A]

Yes. Because Egypt and Nubia are at war and Aida is Nubian and she's in like by the water with other women.

[B]

And they are stolen.

[A]

Yes. Which is something that.

[B]

And enslaved, which is something that Egypt.

[A]

Had been doing for a while. Was. According to.

[B]

No, that is actually true.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, like, there was constantly war in that, like, part of the world at that time. And they enslave Aida. He gives her to Amneris. But Radames and Aida fall in love.

[A]

And what do we learn about Aida?

[B]

She is. Oh, sorry. She is the daughter of the king of Nubia, who is also. He's not enslaved. He's captured. He gets captured at the end of act one.

[A]

It's very messy.

[B]

Yeah, it's messy.

[A]

These straight people will. They are messy.

[B]

They are messy. And then there's also. What is his name? Zoser. Like, like the.

[A]

Oh, his dad.

[B]

His dad. Ray's father. Who is the advisor to the pharaoh. Yeah, but poisoning him.

[A]

I mean, he's. He. I get like. He's their army.

[B]

He's bad news.

[A]

He's. He's a bad news bear. Or a bad news daddy, because he's not really. They never really cast hairy men as. As. As Zoser. They cast tall, hairless, bleached white.

[B]

Let's call them aged twinks.

[A]

And far beyond tws. They are now like, they are twangs.

[B]

Yeah. Like my grandfather and they. What do we say? Radames gives all his shit away because he's in love with Aida. Amneris thinks it's for him. Right after we. Right after Written in the Stars, which bop. We find out that Elaborate Lives Written.

[A]

In the Stars is act two.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. But that's when Mneris finds out that they're having the affair.

[A]

Oh, yes. But also classic white girl behavior to think that it's about her.

[B]

Also, every time I saw it like that, the gasp. This is why I think Aida was. There was this like, very weird wall on stage that you didn't really think about until she walked out from behind it. And then the audience went, oof.

[A]

Yeah. You weren't sure why this wall was on stage.

[B]

And then you were like, oh, I get it.

[A]

Yeah, that's why.

[B]

And then she's saying, like, back to back power ballads, like, Can't Go Wrong.

[A]

She knows the truth.

[B]

She knows the truth and it haunts her now, but in a moment of forgiveness, because she sees that Radames and Aida are in love, she has to kill them. But instead of beheading them or whatever she was going to do, she buries them alive. Well, so sweet.

[A]

The Egyptian law is because it's not just that they're in love, it's that Aida. Radames helps Aida trying to release her father. Yeah. Which is considered treason. And so because of. Of that, they have to be killed as. And Amnera says they make it a point to say it in the dialogue. She goes, I know that this is Egyptian law, so she's bound to the law. She. It's what they must do. But they were going to be buried separately. And so it was like an act of mercy. She allows them to be buried together. Alive.

[B]

Still alive. So then we watch them suffocate while they sing a really sweet version of Elaborate Lives. It's the reprise of Elaborate Lives while they.

[A]

Like, Amneris is not Ferris yet. She can't change the laws.

[B]

No, that's true.

[A]

She's going to be. She'll probably change it after.

[B]

She's going to be. And then we iris down with a beautiful effect from. The set designer was probably Bob.

[A]

It's Bob Crowley.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And. And back up in the British Museum, where we began, having learned so much about this story.

[A]

Yeah. Every story, new or ancient.

[B]

Yeah. Bag of Tail. What I mean, it's a list song.

[A]

Until the final line where she. Where you finally get to what the point she's trying to make.

[B]

It's so good. It's so good. The thing about Aida is the score is just so good. It's so unnecessarily good. And I know that you might like, slander Elton John in the way he, like, writes musicals, but that's why. That is how that man writes music. And he writes hits. Well, so it's like Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. But the musical, like, every song is a bop.

[A]

We can't.

[B]

There are like, two skips.

[A]

There are a couple of skips. We can't go very far. Talk about the score without shouting out Paul Bogave.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The music director and arranger who fully turned that score into theatrical.

[B]

But there was a whole team of people who did it. Like Gary Seligson, who was the original drummer. You have Jim Abbott, who did, like, the keyboard programming and the dance arrangements.

[A]

Like, theater is a collaborative effort.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But, you know, you listen to the demo. Not even. Not even the, like, concept album that they released before the show. Went to Chicago. And those songs like, you know, the meat is there, the bones are there, but they are not fully. Not all of them are fully the songs we come to know and love. Like My Strongest Suit is a very different song on that concept album than what it becomes.

[B]

Also there. What is the song that Tina Turner sings on the Cast, the concept album that sounds like a James Bond song. It is so good.

[A]

Does she do Easy As Life?

[B]

She might do Easy as a Life.

[A]

Heather does Elaborate Lives and that. Because Elaborate Lives used to just be a solo Friday night.

[B]

The moment when the gods. That. What is that? That's.

[A]

I'm going to look it up.

[B]

Oh, that's. That's the song at the beginning of Act 2, where she walks upstage and back downstage.

[A]

Tina Turner. Tina Turner does Easy as Life.

[B]

Yeah, that's what it is. But listen to it. It genuinely sounds like a James Bond song.

[A]

Yeah. Boys to Men does not Me.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Shania Twain does Amneris's Letter, which doesn't exist.

[B]

Doesn't exist.

[A]

Sting does Another Pyramid. Elton John and leann Rimes do Written in the Stars.

[B]

Yes, I remember that.

[A]

Spice Girls do My Strongest Suit.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

I guess they were still together at that point because that was. That would be 99 that. That concept album came out a step too far. Is Elton John, Heather Headley and Sherri Renee Scott. That is. That sounds correct because Adam Pascal had not been cast yet. Lenny Kravitz sings Like Father, Like Son.

[B]

Honestly, he would have been great casting, but that song.

[A]

Like Father, Like Son.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

That's a filler. That's a. That's one of the skips you mentioned.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's a skip, but like, also, like, you can't. I mean, the guy's got to do something. But, like, what's he gonna sing?

[A]

It's not. It's not a slight to Lenny Kravitz. It's just.

[B]

It's not a slight to anybody. Well, you know, it's just.

[A]

We'll get to it. We'll get to it. Heather does do Elaborate Lives. James Taylor sings How I Know you, the Gods love Nubia is Kelly Price. Drew Hill is a sham passing through and. Yeah, that's. That's that. So Aida entered my chat. Will. Thanks for asking that. I was.

[B]

This is your show.

[A]

I. I don't know if we can say that anymore. It belongs to the listeners now. The world.

[B]

Great.

[A]

I was a. I was a sultry 10 years old when Aida came to Broadway.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

I know, that's. It's always, that's always my go to.

[B]

When I'm.

[A]

When I.

[B]

When you want to make your guests feel incredibly old. Great.

[A]

Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. No. So I always Talk about the 1999, 2000 Broadway season was a very pivotal Broadway season for me. That's when I truly, like, got in the sauce of all of it. Because that was the same season as Kiss Me Kate. That was the same season as Music Man. Plus, of course, Aida and, you know, having Marin, Maisie, do I hate men? Simulating childbirth on a picnic table. And then Amy Spanger doing always true to you in my fashion, followed by the double whammy of Heather and Sherry and Aida. I was just like, oh, I'm gonna be gay and this is gonna be my life forever. Yeah, that was. I think that's the first Tony words I truly remember dissecting because I watched the previous two years, but I didn't remember much about them. All I remember from the 99 Tonys was watching you're a good man, Charlie Brown and then watching the parade performance, which I had knew nothing about and my parents had seen. And I was like, what's parade about? And my parents said, it's sad. Don't worry about it. And we moved on. But I remember getting very thrown when Aida didn't get a best musical nomination because I didn't understand the politics. I was just like, but how? And after that, I just became the monster we know today.

[B]

Oh, you're not a monster.

[A]

You don't know me that long. You're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna see what everyone else sees pretty quickly. Our friendship, while lovely, is only like a year old at this point.

[B]

Yeah, that's, that's true.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think around the two year mark, you're gonna be like, oh, yeah, we don't invite Matt to brunch. We don't talk about Bruno. Matt's a bi. Biannual friend. Not a bi monthly friend. But I hadn't seen the show since I first saw it in March or April of 2000. And I listened to the cast album. Fun Fact. I did do the show at the Manor, otherwise known as Station Romanor Performing Arts center, where I played the Pharaoh.

[B]

Oh, okay, I see that.

[A]

Yeah. My outfit was a white pleated skirt with a white cape that showed my 15 year old's chest and mid and stomach and then a giant white headdress that had a blue and red line down the middle. I looked Like a giant tampon.

[B]

Great.

[A]

And I was wearing black jazz shoes because we weren't allowed to be barefoot on stage because, you know, did you.

[B]

Wear a lot of makeup under your eyes to show that you'd been being poisoned with, like, cyanide or whatever?

[A]

I was not granted makeup, so I had to make up for that with acting.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Yes. And, I mean, I'm sick. And my daughter Amneris said, boo, you whore, and walked off stage. The one person in my cast who, if you're a theater fan, you'll know her name. Ms. Natalie Walker. She of the.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yes. Of the. Mariah Carey All I Want for Christmas is yous Alto Line and. And other wonderful Internet sensations. She was in the company. It was her first summer at Stage Door. This was the summer they were doing, like, all premieres because I think it was, like, our 30th anniversary. So you were doing, like, Aida Follies, Big river, just, like, shows that you don't usually do with high schoolers and also, like, where you have mostly white Jewish kids from the East Coast. But. So I did Aida. We shared the theater with Folly. So we watched each other's dress rehearsals. I have Natalie's permission to tell this. They, in her words, they only picked the most feminine, pretty girls to be the handmaidens for Emneris for Strongest Suit. This did not include Natalie. Natalie first entered the stage as a soldier for Fortune Favors the Brave, where she had to sing the tenor one line, and then she got to be a belly dancer for the transition after Strongest Suit into the banquet scene because they needed girls to be belly dancers. And they, quote, unquote, used all the pretty girls for Strongest Suit. So Natalie got to show off her versatility in her words.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Are we allowed to talk about the bootleg that we watched?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Okay, so we recently watched a bootleg of the Broadway production.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Obc. Right.

[A]

Yeah, the obc. And I also watched it at the library. I think the bootleg we watched is somewhere in the middle of previews because it's pretty locked in. But there are a couple of small, like, details. They change.

[B]

Yeah. There was no reverb in Easy as a Life for what?

[A]

That was Will's big thing.

[B]

I will remember that until the day I die.

[A]

No, there was.

[B]

Oh, Wanted. Wanted.

[A]

There was some, like, There was some staging thing that I noticed. And Will was like, oh, I don't know about that. And then he noticed the no reverb. Uneasy is left and got feedback. Furious.

[B]

I. But the. The Point of the story was there are some like great transitions and in that original production.

[A]

So like, yeah, I love the transition from every story into Fortune Favors the Brave. That's a, that's a great moment. But I mean, I also gotta say with that opening song, it is truly I was as I was re listening to it to get ready for today. And with every verse of that song, it truly is just Sheri Renee Scott edging you to get to eventually her point, which is that every story told is pretty much just a story of love or human or you know, humans fucking up. And that's great, that's a lovely point. But it is two and a half minutes of every story, whether old or new, long or short, with a million people in it or just one person in it. Whether it's a more a moral story or a, you know, sinister story, it's.

[B]

A run on sentence.

[A]

It's. It truly is. God, it's when someone in media has like stepped in shit and then has to go on some talks or whatever to defend themselves or apologize, whatever, and they just keep talking in circles. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.

[B]

But it works exactly.

[A]

In my head, I'm imagining I'm neris, like on the View. And they go, emerus, you buried your husband and favorite slave alive because of treason. Explain yourself. She goes, well, you know, every story, new or ancient, you know, whether with a thousand players or a lonely cast of one, you know, happenstance, it just keeps going on. And they're like. And.

[B]

And she goes, well, it's.

[A]

They're all stories of human failing. That's it.

[B]

And love at heart.

[A]

And love at heart. It's. But it's one of those things where, And I've realized this a lot with, you know, when I did the British Invasion series and as I did Miss aigon, there are certain shows where, because the music ultimately is what's front and center and the music clicks in a way that isn't really. I don't. It's not intellectual, it's chemical. Right? Like a musical sensation you get from something isn't something. You rarely are listening to something and going like, oh my God, this is so intricate and beautifully told. You're more just sort of like, I'm really vibing with this. And then you kind of go back over time and you break it down and piece it all together. But it's why, you know, for better or worse, Andrew Lloyd Weber musicals kind of sweep the world. And Sondheim shows take a little longer to progress. But my point Is that in that opening scene, I never really thought of the lyrics much because I'm just. I'm just chiming in with the vibe of the music and the orchestrations, and then that giant chord that stops the.

[B]

It's not just so orchestration. It is those things, but it's also like the. The material itself is, like, set up to, like, let the performers shine. Yeah. Like, Sherry and Adam and Heather especially, like, they are just eating that music up. And there's not a song. I would argue that there's not. And even, like, the. The. The skips, like, the joke skips, the dad songs, but, like, they are written in a way to, like, make the performer shine. And that's where I think, like, the music direction and what Elton John did, like, the melodies are just like. They're like, real melodies. It's like when. When you watch those things with, like, Max Martin and he's talking about, like, it's all about the melody. Like, you know, it's true. Like, those melodies are good and they're visceral, and when they're performed by the right people, you can ignore a lot of things because you're having a visceral reaction to the. The thing that's happening.

[A]

Yeah. And. And for a show, it happens a lot with shows where romance is sort of the focal point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where the music has to take over in a way, because you kind of have to fall in love with the show in the same way that the characters are falling in love with each other. Because love is not really a mental game. It's a. It's an emotional game. And so you can't follow a love story and be like, huh, does this make logical sense to me? You just kind of have to get swept up. Get swept up in it. It's why, you know, I've talked about this. In the Phantom episode. There are moments musically where, like, part of me goes. Artistically speaking, this does not make sense to go from, like, grand, sweeping angel of music into 80s bop, Phantom of the Opera title track. However, on a chemical level, I'm like, that transition rocks, and I just. I get swept up in it. Yeah, but. And we talked about this with, like, the miss Igon stuff. You know, there's moments in the music where it's just so overwhelmingly epic that, you know, you can either sit there with your arms crossed and pick apart all the things about it that don't work, or you can let it just wash over you and have a nice little. Little moment to yourself. And there's a lot of that with Aida. And I think what helps with Aida is that there's a lot of Aida, musically speaking, that's just very exciting. And so it earns a lot of the like, for lack of a better term, saccharine romantic moments because.

[B]

And I also think that the direction works well with the music. Like it is set up to like make you pay attention to what the people are saying. Like it is like like the end of Act 1 when like on that final like chorus of the Gods Love Nubia where everybody just moves downstage. Like it's so simple, but it's like forget about the plot. Listen to these fuckers sing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like cuz nobody had ever. I mean like nobody was singing like that, I don't think on Broadway at the time really. So like was crazy.

[A]

There was a time it was between Evita and Daida during that like 21 year period. There was a time where Broadway performers sang hard and they sang deep. And it really kind of ended after 2000 and it became much more about. In the mask and not floating but a. More. I don't know, you're the music guy. Like a More like. I want to say nasal, but you know, it's. People weren't singing from the vagina anymore. Like the way that Alice and Emily did in Sideshow in the way that full throated singing. Yeah. Like not bloody, but full blooded singing.

[B]

Well, it's a different style of singing and it also has to do with like the age of the performers, like.

[A]

And the style of music that gets written now.

[B]

For sure. Totally. But like also like people who grew up like. Like it's 2024. And like something I have noticed, listening to people sing in auditions and sing in general is like people sing so insanely in tune now that. Because all they've ever heard is like perfect music. And like what I'm sure Sherry and Heather and like all these people grew up with is like a sound that is much more like grittier and like less polished. And because of that, that like their impulse to sing less perfectly, like is exciting. Like. And that. And that was the thrill of seeing Heather in that show is you were like my husband. Like his favorite thing is like when you listen to somebody sing and you don't know if they're actually gonna make it. Yeah. Like you're like, oh my. It's like that like I did Kinky Boots for what was it, like six years or whatever? Like while Billy was in that show. The thrill of Billy Porter in that show was the Gag of it was we all knew he could sing it any day of the week, but it sounded like sometimes you were like, is this, is this gonna happen? And it always did. And I think that, that, that's so thrilling.

[A]

Yeah, well, I think for something like that, it's a combination of as a performer, you know, you have to have a certain stamina and an amount of talent and then a control over your instrument so you know it's gonna come out. Or if like, if there's a day where like it's not gonna be today, but I have the artistry to maneuver something else so you don't feel shortchanged. But also the just simple fact of the passion and the dropped in livingness of it all that an audience can, can go, uh, uh, like it just feels so raw and organic. Like, what, what is gonna happen? It's. It's this. It's a magic trick, for lack of a better term. But I keep saying that a lot today and I think that's just because all my vocabulary words went out the window today. I don't know what it is. It's the snow.

[B]

It's the snow.

[A]

It's the snow. Let it go, I say.

[B]

But to go back to Aida, I mean, like, what's happened about Aida? No, no, I know, but I think like at when you like zoom out from Aida and or I guess like zoom in to like the book of the show, which when we went back and watched it, I was like, yikes. These people said these things to each other and like you start thinking if you start like, I don't want to get in trouble, so we might have to cut this. But like, if you start thinking too hard about Wicked, it can like really fall apart really quickly. Oh yeah. And I think that similarly with Aida, if you start thinking about it too hard, like it falls apart really quickly and also becomes deep, like really problematic really quickly. And I think what the show did so successfully was took those big themes and like, like the concept of Aida or Heather playing like as us, like being owned by this man and she just like gives is a gift to her fiance. His fiance is so incredibly like what? But like she taps into like anger, love, like these really like huge emotions and like channels that into the songs and her voice and her performance that you just sort of were able to get on board with it in a way. But now looking back at it, you're.

[A]

Like, well, yeah, well. So that's also the problem of when you create something around a singular talent Things that work in the room because of that person. Then you go, once that person leaves the equation and you're left with whatever you have, does it work as well? Will it ever work again? And I think there's.

[B]

But I would argue that it did. Like, that's why it ran for so long.

[A]

I'm not even talking about Aida. I'm talking about.

[B]

You just mean like in general. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[A]

But I mean, so this is all coming back to why this episode is happening on this particular series on this day in my. In my room. But so actually. So this is actually a good moment for us to actually get into a little bit of the history that leads us to why we have an Aida. Why there is in fact the Disney's, Elton Johns's, Tim Rice's Aida's, David Henry Kwong's Aida. Before we do any of that though.

[B]

Let us take Robert Falls too. Right?

[A]

And yeah, Robert Falls, don't forget, you.

[B]

Know, don't forget he also wrote the.

[A]

Book and Linda Wolverton.

[B]

Jesus. So many book writers.

[A]

So that's how you know it's good when there are that many book writers.

[B]

It's like a screenplay of a movie and with. And.

[A]

And story by characters by. Yeah. On that note though, will we do need to take a quick break? Billy, I'd like to dinner with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. And we're back. So Aida, I want to take you back to 1994. Disney Animation is in what we now know as the Disney renaissance. We've got Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin.

[B]

All I can think about is Beyonce.

[A]

Sorry, she co opted the word. She appropriated the word.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

Whatever. Kidding, kidding. Although I do believe she was their choice for the movie version of Aida. From what I remember, it was supposed to be her and Christina Aguilera that was gonna. Those were gonna be the two women for the movie.

[B]

Could see that.

[A]

Yeah. And then, you know, I think Beyonce decided against it for reasons. And Christina was also like, I also don't know. I think I'd rather make my film debut in burlesque. And here we are.

[B]

And here we are.

[A]

And that's our history. But so we have Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin. Back to. Back to back. You know, Little Mermaid is a critical hit, financial hit. Beauty and the Beast becomes The first animated movie to get a Best Picture nomination. Now, Jeffrey Katzenberg is all about Disney. You know, he wants to be the first animated film to win Best Picture. And so there are two movies happening that are coming out in 94 and 95 from Disney Animation. And he is all behind one of them because he is convinced it is going to be the picture that wins Best Picture. What comes after Aladdin? Do you remember?

[B]

Oh, Jesus. Pocahontas.

[A]

Mm. Katzenberg was convinced that Pocahontas was going to be the prestige box office sensation that would win them Best Picture. And there was another movie happening that he was like, yeah, whatever. Who cares about that one? You know, you go off and do your thing with it.

[B]

Was that the Lion King?

[A]

That was the Lion King.

[B]

Yeah, that one did okay.

[A]

Yeah. In terms of box office, the exact opposite happened. Pocahontas ended up breaking even just because it was so expensive, but also, like, the box office was only just sort of okay with that. Lion King, of course, took off like a fucking rocket and isn't. Wasn't a good enough movie to win Best Picture or really even be nominated. But there's so much about that movie that is so incredible and epic that, like, it just can't be denied. One of the best openings of all time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Around the same time of Lion King, Beauty and the Beast is coming to Broadway, where it gets mediocre bad reviews, gets a whole bunch of Tony nominations. They lose everything but costumes. But it is a huge, huge hit and runs and. Oh, yeah, no runs for 11, 10, 12 years. But it was not. Beauty and the Beast was not considered a classy show by Broadway standards. Like, the community did not really embrace it.

[B]

They were like, totally.

[A]

Yeah. They're like, thank you for getting audiences in. And, you know, we're grateful you have your nominations, but you don't have your wins. And Disney Theatrical was pretty new at that point, but like Disney in general, they had because they had finally tapped into with the renaissance. They're like, we're back to being prestige but also making money, and we want to keep that going. And they weren't really sure how to do that. I think one of the major issues is that Howard Ashburn tragically passed, and he was really the guiding light at the beginning of that renaissance and taught everyone at Disney how musicals work. And they used that knowledge to make more movies, but with diminishing returns as the years went on, because, again, he was not really around, and if he had been, who knows what would have happened? But they were still kind of Figuring out exactly how to make that work.

[B]

So.

[A]

So with Lion King being what it was, Disney goes up to Elton John and Tim Rice, and they're like, hey, so we have this idea to make a. Make an animated film of the Verdi opera Aida. Because.

[B]

Because Rent was successful. This is a question.

[A]

Rent hadn't happened yet. This was 94, beginning of 95. Wow. What had happened was the opera singer. I don't know how to pronounce her name. Leontine Price. Leontine Price. Leontine Price. She wrote a series of children's books about operas. Sort of like, you know, the stories for kids.

[B]

Sure. Because operas famously have great plots for children.

[A]

I mean, I had a children's illustrated book for ballet, so it's not.

[B]

But ballets are a little less tragic than operas.

[A]

Sure. But, like, you know, I had Swan Lake and Firebird and all that shit. Like, I. My childhood was weird. My family was like, here, read this children's book about all the ballets and come with us to the opera and go see Hansel and Gretel at Juilliard. Like, this is why, again, I'm a monster, because I have that. But then I also go see Barbie six times. So they send this to Elton John. Like, we really want to make this into an animated film. We think, like, this could be another one of our prestige hits. And Elton John's like, ugh, I don't really want to repeat myself. Making a movie sounds dull. He's like, I already did that. I'm winning my Oscar. Whatever. And then ends. Somebody was like, well, what if we made it a stage show? And Elton John was like, fantastic, I'm in. So they started working on it around the same time they were developing the Lion King as a stage show, and Linda Woolverton was writing the libretto. They had enough material to present a first act in April of 1996. So Beauty and the Beast has been on Broadway now for two years. The renaissance is kind of starting to die. I think this is the year that Hunchback was coming out as a new movie.

[B]

You call that part.

[A]

Well, in terms of box office, like, oh, sure.

[B]

Who looks at the box office number?

[A]

They do. That's. That is why we're having a live action Moana.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Got it heard. Because they care about the bottom line. But they do this first act presentation, and it apparently goes decently. They do it. They were hoping that Aida was going to be the show to open the New Amsterdam. That was their plan because they had just bought it and they were renovating It. And they thought that Lion King, because Julie Taymor is Julie Taymor, they're like, we're not entirely sure what the success of this is going to be like. This is either going to work quite nicely or this is going to be a huge disaster. So they kept on being like throwing a couple thousand at Julie and letting her play with her puppets. There's a famous story where she had this whole second act envisioned for Simba after the whole Mufasa death travels throughout Africa and somehow through sheer time and space amneris belting us back in the time machine, like, ends up in modern day Vegas and like, becomes part of like the Disney conglomerate machine and like presents this whole storyboard to them. And they're like, are you. Are you joking? We're giving you millions of dollars. You're not that. No, that's not what Act 2 is. She goes, well, what's Act 2? And they were like, the fucking movie.

[B]

Yeah, Julie, she figured it out.

[A]

Yeah, she eventually figured it out. But they're like, you're gonna follow the movie's plot. And she goes, if I must. But so because of that, they're like, well, Aida will clearly be the short thing. Like, that plot is already written for us. It's just about getting Elton to sit down and write songs. And they're developing and developing it. They do two more workshops. So by the end of spring of 97, they're unclear whether Aida should go forward or Lion King will go forward. Eventually they decide, because Lion King does out of town tryout in Milwaukee and is such a huge hit. They're like, oh, I guess we'll hold up on Aida. Lion King will be the thing that quote unquote, opens in New Amsterdam because King David ended up being the thing that opened that. But Lion King was the first Broadway show.

[B]

But wasn't that like a favorite? Alan Menken?

[A]

Yeah, pretty much. But like, I think it was. I think it was. Listen, I wasn't in the room. I was famously only 19 years old in 1997. But.

[B]

But it was a concert.

[A]

It was a staged concert. They had costumes. Kunzy was in it. But the idea, from what I understand, is a combo of a favorite to Alan Menken and also to buy time until they had their show ready to go into the New Amsterdam after. Because that was, I want to say, the spring of 97. Spring, summer 97. And then Lion King came in that winter, and then Aida was held off for another year. They. What I have here, they did open calls for the role of Marib because Marab was originally written to be a child.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Yeah. It was originally called Elaborate Lives. They eventually did a workshop where the kid who was playing young Simba in the original cast of Lion King was playing Marib. And then I think that lasted until. I'm sorry, through Atlanta. And then in Chicago, they changed. Like, well, what if we didn't have any children in the show? I think that would make our lives easier. Maybe this be. Be the only Disney show producers take note. Yes. No children. When in doubt, no children. Sherry has pretty much been a part of this from the get go. Yeah. From workshop to Atlanta to Chicago. Heather doesn't join the show until Atlanta because she's.

[B]

She's doing the Lion King.

[A]

Yeah. She does ragtime first. She leaves Northwestern to do ragtime where she's understanding Audra, I think in Toronto.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Gets Nala. Does Nala for about nine months.

[B]

But there's like another crazy of ragtime folklore there. Like where I believe Heather left after Toronto to do the Lion King. And then Audra's standby on Broadway was. Was it Lachanze?

[A]

I don't think she was her standby. She replaced her. I know that.

[B]

I think somebody crazy was her understudy on Broadway.

[A]

I'm gonna look this up because Ragtime is one of those things where it's really hard to get the timeline correct because. Because it was livent and Garth was doing multiple productions like he was doing with Showboat. So there was Toronto and then they had an LA cast and then they, you know, moved everyone from Toronto to Broadway, but LA was still running. And then they had a national tour and like everyone. The whole thing was just like a swingers party of, you know, you're how like Mormon treats their swings of like, oh, you're going to London for four weeks, then you're gonna go on the road and then you're gonna come back to Broadway. Yeah, yeah. Which, listen, I love that life. I would love to have that life.

[B]

Yeah. I was about to say those people are all making more money than.

[A]

This is not shade to book of work.

[B]

But that is how shade to actors complaining about jobs. Listen, you can mute that. You can take that out. You can edit that out.

[A]

I don't think we're going to edit that out. Actors complain about jobs all the time. Sometimes you just need to vent about your work. You know what I mean? But so, yeah, they go to Atlanta to do their very first presentation of elaborate lives with Heather and Sherry. And I Don't remember who the Rodhames was. Oh, Hank Stratton. A name I've never heard before.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Does that name sound familiar to you?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Fantastic. You can watch a video of that production on Aurora spider woman on YouTube.

[B]

On what?

[A]

Aurora Spider Woman. Do you not know about that YouTube channel?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

What privilege. Will does not watch Broadway. He is Broadway.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

No, no, it's. It is a theater account. Mostly Broadway, occasionally off Broadway, West End. And it's just, you know, a treasure trove of clips. So there is a video of, I believe, Lashanze doing your. Your daddy's daddy son. Yeah, yeah. And then there's a clip of Sarah Ramirez and Patrick Wilson in that, like, random Gershwin review they were in before. I think he did Full Monty. There's video of Marin Maisie doing Spamalot. There's a whole bunch of stuff. There's video. There's video of Patty in Evita, Original cast of Phantom.

[B]

Oh, that's very cool.

[A]

All the very.

[B]

I meant no disrespect.

[A]

No, no. But there's also, like, a video that's all the various changed endings of Miss Saigon from, like, the London production when it moved to Broadway. And then they've changed it again. And they have one of Aida, first of all, they have Sherry doing Strongest Suit on Broadway that's, you know, untouchable. But they have a sort of compilation of when it was in Atlanta, and they were like, this was one of the few times the set was working.

[B]

Oh, yikes.

[A]

Because they. That was not a Bob Crowley set that everyone originally involved with. Aida was the Broadway production team of Beauty and the Beast. Original director, designers, Linda, like, they. They were like, well, you know, that worked out okay for us, so let's just bring everyone on board for that. And then they opened Atlanta, where the set's never working. All the critics are like, it feels like you kind of want this to be taken seriously, and yet you still want this to be a family show. We're not sure what's happening here. And the set was like this giant pyramid that could manifest into different things. Like, it was a boat at one point, and then it was a kingdom, and then it was the. Sounds cool. Cool in theory. And then they're like, well, it just never worked. It always broke down. Right. And so Disney, to their credit, were like, we're not giving up on this show, but we are going to kind of go back to the drawing board. And that was at this. That was the time when Elton John made the concept album because he was like, well, you know, if we're. If we're not sure when this thing's coming to Broadway, like, I might as well, you know, do something with it. And that's when he made the album. But they go back, they get Robert Falls, who was Robert Falls, was, I think, the artistic director at the Goodman at that point. Yes, he was and was. I mean, not like a wounder king, but he was considered classy. They were after. After Julie Taymor, you know, was made liking what it was. Disney kind of did this pivot with theater. I don't know if you remember this, where they're like, well, now we're going to start getting, like, classy directors and they're going to give us these.

[B]

Well, I think he also probably wanted to, like, do a musical.

[A]

Sure. And make some Disney money. And this was. Things didn't get weird yet. But this is where I'm talking about, like, Francesca. What's her face doing? Little Mermaid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bob Crowley eventually directing Tarzan. And we're like, what are we doing here? And that. And then they kind of did a hard pivot after that. And like, okay, scratch that. People who know how to make a Broadway musical. Casey Nicola, Aladdin go and that. And, you know, Jack Calhoun, Newsies go. And they bring in Crowley to design it. They bring in Adam Pascal, and they're in Chicago. And mostly it's going okay. The big thing was that the. The tomb that they're in used to levitate.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

And Heather fell out of it on opening night. Had to get rushed to the hospital in her costume. She was fine, because Heather's always fine. It takes more than that to break Heather Headley. And they eventually change it that the tomb is on stage level now. Yeah. And then the other thing they did was they were like, radames doesn't really have enough to do musically.

[B]

And they're like, so how did they not. If they were levitating that thing, how did they not strap? Like, how did she not have a harness?

[A]

Whatever. Who cares? That's. That's a 1999 problem that we. That we don't have to worry about anymore. I don't know what to tell you.

[B]

I don't know. That's what's problematic about Ado.

[A]

Yeah. The fact.

[B]

Osha.

[A]

That they didn't harness her in. The really big changes they end up doing between Chicago and New York are they make Elaborate Lives a duet because it used to just be the solo. And they give and they write. Fortune favors the Brave for Adam and they also, by the way, lean. They were debating, like, what do we do? Do we make this more serious or do we make this like, more like sexy, young hit? And they decide to ultimately go for the latter. Like, we're gonna make this MTV crowd. We're gonna, you know, eyeliner on all the men. And Adam's gonna be shirtless as often as possible. Because I'm reading these articles by Michael Riedel in the post, which, hahahaha. Remember him? But he's chronicling Aida's journey.

[B]

Such a lovely man. He did the same thing with the Addams Family. It was really lovely.

[A]

Although the thing was with Aida, that was sarcasm, total sarcasm. And Taboo and all these other shows, Spider Man. But the thing with Aida is he's not being mean spirited in his articles, which makes me go like, did were you so in Disney's pocket that you were being. Because he's not being kind, but he's actually just sort of reporting it, which is crazy for him. That's not usually what he does. And he talks about all these changes they're gonna make, some of which they do make, some of which they don't. The changes they do make are the ones I mentioned, but he also talks about like, oh, they're gonna fire Wayne Salento's choreographer and make it more organic staging. They're gonna cut this fashion show during one of the numbers because it's like, it's a little too campy and it goes to Broadway. And as you and I both know, neither of those things happened.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

They ultimately made the decision of like, no, no, no. This is gonna be mtv. This is gonna be sexy, fun, Broadway and colorful. Because even though we want this to be the most serious Disney musical so far, it is still a Disney musical. It's. It gives me Hunchback vibes in that way. But I think Hunchback actually goes a little too dark sometimes in that original movie and then goes so light that it is far more whiplash y than Aida. Yeah, but I mean, Aida does deal.

[B]

With some heavy shit, some very heavy shit. And to go back, like, I think if you cut, if you cut my strongest suit, like, I don't know how the musical works well.

[A]

So like.

[B]

But that's why it's problematic.

[A]

Well, so, okay, we were talking about this with a couple of other shows. So the idea of the term problematic, when I was pitching this show to friend of the pod, Patrick, not Patrick we know, but a different Patrick, he said to me, well, do you mean Shows that, like, should work and just don't, like, merrily or candide, that, like, are always just gonna have, like, problems to them no matter what. And he said that is the correct way for that word to be applied. But also shows that people just have issues with, like, morally speaking or politically speaking. And most of the time, I think that those complaints are actually unfounded. It's more just these. Some of them are just shows that deal with a messiness of the human experience that some people get uncomfy with. And rather than deal with those emotions, they go, well, it's a problematic show. And Aida is one of the shows we're covering in this series that I think is more of the former than the latter, of just. There are. There are things in its foundation that are very tricky and bring whiplash, but it's also like, if you cut the things that bring the whiplash, then you cut some of the things that make that show fantastic. And so it's like, well, what then? What the do we do?

[B]

Yeah, I. I would say that, like, looking at Aida now, like, at a macro level in 2024, Aida is a. Is a show where a bunch of white people are playing Egyptians, which is like, let's just state the facts. Like, that is. That is problematic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It is a show about, like, slavery and, like, indentured servitude and, like, kidnapping and, like, murder and colonialization and, like, colonization. Sorry. Yikes.

[A]

Colonialization. I love that.

[B]

Oh, Jesus.

[A]

You've had. You've been working all day.

[B]

Yeah, it's okay. And it never really gets dealt with. And it's also written by pretty much all white people.

[A]

One book writer, who is Asian, because Robert Falls, the director, took on book writing duties along with David Henry Huang post Atlanta. I think Huang came in to, like, give it some more heft. And then when they're in Chicago, Falls is like, and I shall cut things.

[B]

Yeah. So I think it's just, like, you know, there are those inherent, like, things looking back on it that are undeniably, like, problematic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there are the other things, such as what we're talking about, which is, I think probably what we should focus on, because, like, what's the point in, you know, just looking back and being like, hey, we should.

[A]

You're truly just undermining the whole purpose of this.

[B]

Oh, come on. No, no, no, I'm not.

[A]

But, like, are you just telling me to get in bed and never get out, Will?

[B]

No, but the, like, my strongest suit, like, literally the scene before Rodimus walks in and was like, here is a slave. I got you. And then she sings My strongest suit with.

[A]

We call them handmaidens. But, like, you look at the cast and, like, some of those women are indeed her slaves.

[B]

Yeah, they are her slaves. So, like, it's really what.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's where. That's where, like, the show is, I think, ultimately deeply flawed, but they do a really great job of glossing it over by, like, putting on a show.

[A]

There are moments in musical theater, not just Aida, but like many shows, where it's truly a don't think about it too much scenario of just go along for the ride, and when it's over, we can talk about it. But right now, just. Just enjoy. And I think what one thing that Aida does well sometimes and not well other times is having enough momentum that you don't have to worry too much about it. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Right. But I think, like, when people were leaving Aida in the early 2000s, they were not having conversations about, like, slavery. And that is like, where I think if. If. If you were to look at Aida as a show and go in there and do it again and, like, with all of its flaws, the only way you could do that is where you leave the theater having those conversations.

[A]

Theater discussions changed after 2016, for obvious reasons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is just what this is like. In 2004, I truly. I did the Lord's work well, and I went back on the message boards and looked for conversations about this show in 2002, 3 and 4. Oh, I know it's all yikes, but they're not.

[B]

Are they genuine? Are they about, like.

[A]

No, the people who still had problems with the show. It was not about the racial stuff. It was about, like, I think the show is too silly. I think it was actually artistic conversations. Whether you agree or not, it was about what was actually there and dissecting that. And then it wasn't until many years later that the conversations became about that. And. And. But that's true of literally everything. But that's why we're. This is why we have the series to both discuss the show itself, the legacy it has, and then figure out, like, what works. Is there something here that doesn't? Is there something that's getting lost in translation? Is there something that just purely hasn't aged well? Because that's also just, like, a very okay thing to have happen some shows over time because they're not written necessarily to endure through centuries, and they're written for the moment. They're written in and times change and opinions change. Which also means, like, in 30 years, we're probably gonna swing back to a similar time of 2000. 2001.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. The. What's so interesting is, as I was reading also the reviews for this show, the line Drawn in the sand by critics where there were some critics who were like, so much fun. Absolutely. Let's do it. You know, take Verity and fuck with it. Who cares? Like, Charles Isherwood thought it was ingenious that they made Mnerys like a fashion girly. Ben Brantley was like, the fuck. Because the actual opera of Aida, which I don't know super well, but I did, you know, research it. The overall plot is, you know, the same of Radames and Aida love each other. Radames is betrothed to Amneris, they die together. The couple. Couple of changes that are different. First of all, there is no British Museum. There's no flashback. Yeah, we just open in Egypt. And also when we open, Aida has already been kidnapped and is already in love with Radames. We do not see the progression of their romance. They're already having like a love affair. And Damneris is not, you know, an opera equivalent of a teeny boppery girl. She's a very. She. She's just a royal and. And is kind of gobsmacked that anyone would go against her in any way. And it's not. Not in a way of like, I feel betrayed, but like, what do you mean? There's someone else that. Someone that the person I love loves someone else. What the. I am. I am royalty.

[B]

I am perfect.

[A]

Exactly. The other thing is that at the end, it's not an Amneris decision. Also, I don't think Marib exists in the Verdi version. Don't quote me on that. But I'm pretty sure Marib doesn't exist. I think that was a character they added for this one. But in the end, Amneris does not say Aida and Radames shall be together because they're in love. Aida escapes and then Radames gets sentenced to die in the tomb. And while he's in the tomb, he realizes that Aida's in there with him. That like, she. I guess she learned that he was gonna die and decided to jump in there with him. So that's a creative decision on the Broadway productions. Part of making it Emneris decision, which I actually think is, dramatically speaking, a really good one. It makes it. Even if it's like, well, with the.

[B]

Rest of the book, I mean, like, quite literally, if I. You'd have walked in there, you'd be like, I'm sorry, what?

[A]

Well, I think it a gives em there. It ties Emerys much more into this being a love triangle of having there be emotions at stake. Because in the opera, from everything I gathered, Emneris is not a totally emotional person. And her arc in the musical, separate from her ties to the opera, is an interesting one of a pampered, privileged person who is unaware of the weight of the world around her and. And is slowly learning it over the course of the show through various circumstances and just sort of wisens up very quickly. And of everyone in this show who is, you would think, until the last 20 minutes, smarter and more mature than Mneris, they all make a lot of dumb decisions. And Mneris is sort of the only one who, when she has to grow up very quickly, makes a decision that, for the circumstances that they're in, is probably the best decision she could make. Again, you know, she's not fair. She's not Ferris yet. Her father, while being poisoned, has not died yet. And she. She tells him to look at the mirror and look at his dumb self, which I love. When he's like, I am Pharos. She goes, there is poison in your blood and I will be ruling very soon. You have to let me make a decision. And I'm like, girl, amazing. Preach, preach, preach. The daughter of Isis has spoken. And then she walks off stage. And it's. It's a very fascinating arc. Aida, I think, is a much more complex character. Although I don't think her arc is as interesting as Emneris.

[B]

Well, I would argue that it's not as interesting as Emneris because Amneris is not filled with politics. Amneris story is like, purely emotional. And Aida, and this is probably the failure of not the failure, but like, where the writing of the musical is complicated is that you. With Aida, you never know where. Whether her story is, if it's a love story or if it's a political story. And they have to tell the political story in order for the love story to like, complete. But the decisions that Aida is making around getting her, like, getting her father to escape, like all of these things, like, you never deal with that aspect of her story. Those are just like actions that she is making. But the only thing you're hearing about internally is the love. Like, she's in love and that's complicated for her. But you don't understand why she's making the decisions she's making.

[A]

So I.

[B]

So it's like. It's less interesting. Whereas Amneris is a little more. I don't know.

[A]

Well, in a way, like, Aida's arc, Emneris arc for the whole show, is sort of Aida's arc for act one, in a way, half and half. Because they are both princesses, two leaders. And everyone in the palace, all the slaves, know that Aida is there because she gives her real name, which is. I'm sorry, dummy decision number one. And when we were watching the bootleg, I was like, why is she giving her real name if she doesn't want anyone to know she's the princess? And you're like, well, you know, there definitely be people there who knew her already. I was like, yeah, but, like, none of the Egyptians need to know. Like, it's. That's a dangerous game. She should be giving a pseudonym.

[B]

Like, the Egyptians are listening to, like, their names.

[A]

I'm just saying, if you. If you claim to be good at what you do, you should know your enemy's daughter's name. Yeah, and. And I'm sure there are other Aidas in the world, but, like. And listen, I just think it's a very, very, very dangerous game she's playing by actually giving her name. They should be like, what's your. What's your name? And she's like, susan. Yeah, exactly. As Whitney Houston famously saying, My name is not Susan.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's not a. It's not as good of a title.

[A]

It's. Susan is not as good of a title for a musical. Hot take. That's a very hot take. Now, I'm just gonna write a musical called Susan. It's about a woman who eats salad, but she. Aida, when everyone in the palace knows who she is in Act 1, and she kind of is called to duty, which is what I think what makes Dance with the Ropes such a dramatically compelling number. It's a similar thing with Emneris, even if it's a quieter journey. Like, she doesn't. She doesn't get that it's enough call to action that Ayden does, because it's ultimately not Emneris's story, but it is a similar trajectory. And I think, because as you said, Emerys is not as complicated with the love story as Aida is. Emerys obviously loves Radames. They're betrothed. But, like, he's giving her absolutely nothing, so there's less to complicate her head. And her growth in that respect, that call to action that Aida gets in Act 1, they don't really continue with an Act 2. They kind of just go straight with the romance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think that the romance works in this show?

[B]

No. Yeah. Like, I don't understand why she would like him. The way he talks to her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know why anybody would like him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, Amneris, like, he's horrible to her. He's not particular. He's such a brat to Aida. And like, it makes sense from, like a. From his point of view. Like, this woman is challenging him in ways. The same is true of Amneris. She's challenging Amneris. Like, Aida's appeal to the two white people is that, like, she is challenging them in a way that, like, they've never been challenged. And that is very attractive to them. And. But I don't. I don't understand why Aida likes either of them other than she feels sorry for them. But that's not love. That's empathy.

[A]

Yeah, well, because it also gets complicated with Aida being Emneris slave and then bonding with her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which I. I mean, I think that they do much more dramatic work in that.

[B]

In that relationship building.

[A]

Yeah. The bedroom. So for anyone who doesn't know the show super well. Sorry about it. You know, we're getting deep here. Once Aida. The way that Aida originally endears herself to Mneris is to, you know, pet her ego and say, like, I can make you beautiful gowns. You love your beautiful gowns, Aretha. Let me. Let me make you some. And Emerus loves that. And then after, you know, this banquet where Pharaoh basically says to Radames, you're no longer allowed to go out journeying and capturing Nubians, not because it's wrong, but because you've been engaged to my daughter for 20 years and it's time to seal.

[B]

Time to marry her.

[A]

Yeah, seal the deal, motherfucker. And he starts. And then Pharaoh starts coughing, being sick because Zoser, Radames father, has been poisoning the pharaoh. Because when Radames marries Amneris and Pharaoh dies, Radames gets to be pharaoh and Zoser gets to then basically rule all of Egypt through his son.

[B]

In the map room sequence with the second skip, though.

[A]

Yeah, listen, they're just building another pyramid. Build it, build it.

[B]

No, no, no, the second one. Father like son. That's like father, like son.

[A]

Yes. Now the like father like son is the map room, but I'm just referring to the beginning of the show, when we. When Zoser shows up in his albino monk outfit. Is that the best way to describe it? Sure. It gave me very Da Vinci Code vibes. Red trim. They all are at the Eagle on a Saturday night. But so, you know, when Pharaoh's clearly taking a turn for the worse and Aida goes back to Amneris bedroom after having this sort of, will they, won't they? With Radames, she and Amneris bond over, you know, what it is to be a princess, to have all eyes on you, to have this responsibility of seeing your father get sick. And it's short, but it's meaty. And it's honestly more meaty than the scene that preceded it. And. And then it gets undercut by Radamesh showing up and Emerus getting horny, which is funny. It's a funny moment. And Sherry sells it like a motherfucker because Sherri Renee Scott has great comedic timing. But I was like, I would love another three minutes of this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of this girl talk. It was nice.

[B]

I think, like, that is missing from a lot of the storytelling. And, like, I think the. The reason that you ultimately believe that Aida and Radames are in love with each other has to do with the. The songs they sing to each other. But, like, in nowhere really, in the dialogue, do they ever. Does he ever really attempt to endear himself to her.

[A]

Yeah, it's there. We. They are in love because they tell us they are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no real draw. They. I feel like they do try to at times, but because the show is also trying to cover so much ground, they can't really.

[B]

They can't focus on it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Enchantment passing through. Isn't that what that song is? The. Why should I tell you this?

[B]

Enchantment passing. Yeah, that. That's when he sells all this stuff.

[A]

No, that's not me. Not me is. This is the number where he sells everything. But the fact that we're having this confusion is, I feel like, indicative of this.

[B]

That's the one where she screams at him in the middle and she goes, there are no shackles on you. Yes.

[A]

So, yeah. Someone posted. When I was like, what do you want us to cover? Someone was like, the way that Heather says that line, like, there are no shackles on you. She's just.

[B]

It's. She's like reading him for filth.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. The way that Heather has this wonderful way of speaking because she's Trinidadian, but she's also lived in America For a very long time. And so she. And I think that this show also kind of, like, brought out some of that accent in her. So it's sometimes certain vowels have a specific accent to them, which I always. When I was little, because I didn't know that that was her background. I always just like, oh, this is a musical theater alien. She. She just says things her own way. But I think that's also just true. I think Heather both has that accent because of her background and is also a true musical theater alien. And I want to get into that eventually as we get into her Tony win, because that Tony Awards is an interesting Tony awards in regards to the Aida of it all. And then just her category.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't even know who else was nominated.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I'm the worst.

[A]

Well, okay, let me say this to you. There's no real structure on this. There are no shackles on us. We go over. We want that 2000 Tony Awards best actress in a musical. We have our winner, Ms. Headley in Aida. We have Maren in Kiss Me Kate, that amazing revival. Rebecca Luker in the Music man, which is, you know, beautifully sung. We have Toni Collette in the Wild Party, and we have Audra McDonald and Marie Christine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That is a, in my opinion, baller lineup. Because not only are all those women incredibly talented, it's hard. Those are great performances and all wildly different. Like, there's none where you go, oh, those two are kind of similar. Like, even Tony and Audra in different Lachusa shows. Like, those are very different Lausa shows.

[B]

Well, to go back to your, like, earlier point, like, at that point, you don't know that other people can play Aida. And, like, in those other performances, like, those are great performances and in great productions of musicals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, Aida is not nominated for anything, really.

[A]

They are nominated for actress, score, set, costumes, and lighting, and they win four out of five.

[B]

Right. Huh?

[A]

There's so the. There is an absolute reason that they were not nominated for best musical. Because there are. Every now and then, there's a year where the Tony nominating committee votes, and then something happens. And not necessarily like an investigation happens, but there's enough of an outcry because it feels very purposeful that the voting rules change. It happened in 96 with rent and big because big also, you know, nominated for score, actress, choreography. I think they were nominated for Book two, and then they were not nominated for best Musical. There were two closed musicals that were nominated over it. It was Rent bringing the Noise, Swinging on a star and, like, I think Wand Darien or something like that. And it was just, like, very clear that it was Tony nominators being like, we do not want to send the message that this is what we want on Broadway. We'll nominate you in other ways, but not, you know, number one. Because if you're not nominated for musical, you also can't perform on the Tonys. Although Big did perform. I think if Lion King had not won Best Musical, Aida would have been nominated. But when they won Best Musical over Ragtime, there was a feeling in the community of, oh, are we just going to kowtow to the big corporations now? Because they bring in all the money? I'm seeing your face right now. I'm just telling you, this is sort of.

[B]

No, no, I get it. I just think it's hilarious that, like, to look back 27 years later. I mean, like, do I think that Ragtime and the Lion King should both still be running? Yes. Do I think they're both brilliant musicals? Yes. I mean, the Lion King is objectively, like, spectacular.

[A]

Lion King is a very gorgeous piece of theatrical storytelling. The thing is. And you're always kind of just going in the moment. But also, there was a. There's always a difference between the nominating committee and then the voter.

[B]

Oh, yeah, of course you can.

[A]

And you see this at every Tonys. You know, when last year's Tonys, when Kimberly Akimbo, I think, had, like, eight nominations, and everyone's like, oh, well, some Like It Hot has the most. Like, that's clearly gonna win. I was like, well, first of all, you have to take into account, like, design categories and choreography, which, like, Kimberly Akimbo was never getting nominated for. But also, you have to think about, like, they are. There are different bodies. Nominators do get to vote, but they are 45 people out of 800. So things change. And you can see where nominators sometimes really love to show that voters did not. You know, we saw that in 2022 and other years. The year of 2000, the year of our Lord 2000, Aida is nominated for five Tonys, not best Musical. And it's clear that the nominators not only were like, we don't want to send that message that we are welcoming Disney in with open arms, and also we are nervous that if we nominate Aida for Best Musical, it will win Best Musical. So they nominate Contact Swing. James Joyce is the Dead and the Lachiusa Wild Party. It's very clear that the nominators Actually quite liked the Wild Party. They nominated for most of the above board stuff and they win nothing. Aida wins four out of five. And it's clear that if Naida had been nominated, it would have won.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

So it was very much a deliberate snub.

[B]

And Contact, not a musical, wins best musical.

[A]

Yes, Contact, not technically speaking musical, but of those four was the most critically successful, commercially successful, and like, just as a piece of theater, Contact, I think was quite wonderful. Even if it wasn't truly musical. My vote would have gone to Wild Party, but I don't begrudge Contact.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I would have maybe chosen the musical with live music.

[A]

Sure, I hear you. I hear you, Joanna. But I do see where they're going with that. It was 2000, was a, was a year. But Heather, you know, of those five women, it's also interesting to see. I thought about this because we, after we watched Aida, for listeners out there, Will says he's not that theater gay, but sometimes he can be. His husband. His husband and I sat down, went through the best actress winners of the last 24 years. 34 years, maybe 24, 24, just of the century. And, and did our own little personal ranking. We won't tell you what the rankings were, but it was, it was us determining, like, impact of the performance as well as the quality of the performance, the quality of the show and, like, the legacy of that win.

[B]

And Heather was in the top five, correct, or top 10?

[A]

She was definitely top 10. She might have been top five.

[B]

I think she was top five.

[A]

I think she might have been number five, maybe number four. It was, I've got to say, cracking the top five was very difficult because we had like 10 women that we were all arguing should be like number two or three. Yeah, it was. Considering how strongly each of us felt about certain performances, it's a miracle we finished that list. But.

[B]

Yeah, but, but, but I guess to the point, like Heather's, the impact of that performance was astronomical.

[A]

Well, and so what's interesting is we were looking through the list was, you know, how many of these women. This is also my brain because we're doing a. We're starting to do Tony episodes for this coming season. You know, best actress in a musical. In the last, like 30ish years, the number one trend was women who. It was either their first or second Tony nomination, but not their first Broadway show. And if you were a woman, if you were a leading actress in a musical, sometimes you got a win after a slew of nominations. Like A Kelli o'. Hara. But often it was, you know, Broadway volleyed you up in the air with your previous stuff. This is your first real big nomination and you get to spike it down. That was Heather in Aida. That was Victoria Clarke in Lighting the Piazza, Lachanze in Color Purple. And Lachanze, that was her second Tony nomination, but her first real meaty leading role in a long time. And it was. These are Broadway's ways of being like, we love you and we are investing in you because this, like, if you play your cards right, this is a career launching moment for you and for Heather, it absolutely was. Because it was not only just an objectively wonderful performance, one of which Ben Brantley was like, the only reason to see Aida is to see Heather Headley. Well, which is. I don't agree with him, but like, that his whole review is like a love letter to her in a way of being like, the only reason I might go back is to see Heather again.

[B]

Well, I mean, sure, but it was also that good.

[A]

No, it wasn't. No. It's a phenomenal performance. And the kind of performance that is that of a talent alien, as I like to call them. Someone who is so talented and so special, but also like odd making choices that could very much not work and.

[B]

Yet do like the entire show.

[A]

Yeah, but like Barbara Harris, that's always my go to of talent aliens of people who are just so talented and so weird and just what they do works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can't explain it. They just work. The way she uses her arms, you know, like fucking Elphaba and Wicked when it's not necessary. Certain line deliveries and just having a command of the stage and bringing a gravitas to that show that might not have been there without her.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's real.

[A]

Yeah. She brought a complexity to that role that, I mean, that role is complex, but she really brought it to the forefront and I think that was important. And also, as you said, singing in a way where like, as an audience member, sometimes you're like, is that note gonna come out?

[B]

Yeah, it's visceral. It's like a visceral. Yeah, I just like, mm.

[A]

What's a. What's a Heather moment for you in this show?

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Like, what's a favorite of yours, of hers in that show that you think about when you think of Heather Headley and Aida and you're like, oh, the.

[B]

End of act one. I mean, like, the end of act one is just so. It's so it's people singing about a higher power. And, like, like, that is the world that Heather Headley lives in to this day and comes from. And like, the. To see her do that in the medium that, like, we have chosen to, like, work in or whatever was so unique and special that, like, you. You don't forget seeing that or hearing that because, like, it's singing about something. It's like, I don't know, like, have you. This is maybe a dumb question, but, like, have you ever been to, like, like a real gospel concert or, like, been to church like that people. Because, like, it is, like, it is connected to something that is not like, of. Of humans, but comes from humans. And it, like, to be able to feel a glimpse of that in. In this space is like. Was so remarkable for me at, like, a young age that, like, I'll never, like, I'll never forget that. So like that to me. And while there are other, like, vocal acrobatics that, like, happened in the show, like, that moment to me is. Is the one that. That I remember because it. It wasn't about. It was about something else. It was like, beyond. It was coming from beyond. And everybody in that moment was. Was singing the same way from that same beyond that. It was crazy.

[A]

It's. I don't mean this in a negative way towards the show because I do like this show, and if you doubt me, you can listen to the episode we did on it. The vocals for Aida, impressive as they are, it's not six, like, singing. They're not doing like, a ton of riffs all the time, or at least with the original company. It was. There was high singing and there were. And there were riffs, but it was a very guttural kind of singing, which is what made it so impressive because as you said, it was a visceral reaction. It was. It was a deep vibration, you know.

[B]

Like, yes, riffing is not good singing.

[A]

No, no, riffs are fun. They're fun little things, but I don't necessarily think that they're correct.

[B]

Yeah, Shoshana Bean knows how to tell story with riff, with riff period.

[A]

Yes. You can watch her do just that and serve spaghetti nine times in two hours in Hell's Kitchen this coming spring.

[B]

I. I mean, I don't. I. I haven't seen it, so I can't talk about it, but.

[A]

But like that.

[B]

But that is a talent. So. So let's talk about Shoshana.

[A]

Be. All I was going to say was in Act 2, she served some vocals. In Act 1, she served some spaghetti. Okay, but.

[B]

But, like, but Shoshana Bean, like, right, It's a similar. Like, I would say, like, anytime that she, like, you have the. The literal opportunity to hear her sing, that is. It is.

[A]

It is.

[B]

So. Everything is so, like, focused and clear and intentional. And that is. That is why there's such a response in the way she sings. And the vocal acrobatics she's doing, they are not. They are intentional. Like, there's intention to it. And like, I. I think that a lot of times people confuse, like, vocal agility with, like, good singing. And, like, it can be in pop. Well, I would disagree in pop music. Like, if there's not intention to it, then, like, why does it exist? And, like, there was no reason for Heather to sing like that in Aida. There was, like, impressive things that she did that were not, like, riff based, but, like, there was intention to all of it. And so I think that that is what was so unique about their performance is, like, she was singing in a way that oftentimes we hear sung without intention.

[A]

So first of all, I may or may not have written something on Instagram two years ago that was about all of this, about how we applaud a singer's agility and not their artistry when it's about the vocal marathon that they go through.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not into it. Not okay with it. Heather has a laser focus, and I think that's really the. The distinction with her for all of the wild things that she's capable of doing and, like, the weird choices she makes, there's always a focus to it, which is what keeps it from going into, like, camp. Which I. I just say that because, you know, when you. When you are a talent alien, it is so easy for you to become a caricature of yourself over time. If there's not that focus and restraint or someone on a creative team to reel you in. There may or may not be some Tony winning people in the industry who have been around for a very long time and have started to become, honestly, caricatures of themselves. We don't need to say names. It's fine. But with Heather and Aida, as you said, there is the. The intention behind it which keeps it from going to that place. But, you know, it. It makes her distinguishable, but it still makes it artistically fulfilling. Like, you could do a drag performance of her easy as life. And that doesn't take away from the power of what she did. It just means, like, it's so specifically her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's something that you can you.

[B]

Could. You can heighten it to, like, a drag performance and. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. Talent alien sounds like to me, it's more like there are people. When you see them, you're like, oh, you are a star. And that's an undefinable thing. Is that what you mean by alien?

[A]

Yeah, talent aliens. I mean both star quality, that power, but also just the ability to make actual choices that you would never have thought of. And yet they land. Like, I call Jennifer Simard a talent alien.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

Like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We don't have many of them right now, which is why it's. It's hard to, like, pinpoint other people, but, like, you know, Heather and Jennifer, absolute talent aliens.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah. That's not. Thank you. On that note, let's take another break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire. And we back. So I don't even know where to go from there because we were just talking about Heather forever. Let's talk about Sherri a little bit. Is that okay?

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

In this day, on this Earth. On this. Yes.

[B]

We love Sheri.

[A]

We love Sheri. Well, first of all, there's a lot of rent connections to this show. A lot of. A lot of rent people. We had Adam, we had Sheri, we had Adina replacing Sherry, which someone wrote in, and they said, can you talk about that pipeline, which is just, you know, Sher Renee Scott was the first Maureen replacement on Broadway. She was not treated well by the fans. And then Idina, not the first Mneris replacement, but a replacement nonetheless. And it's. It's interesting how that flip flop sometimes works.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Did you. I'm sure you saw Idina do it on Broadway. If you saw it as many times as you say. Yeah. Do you remember seeing Adina, or is that just one of those.

[B]

I think I don't specifically remember the experience, but I know I saw her because I remember having a conversation with my roommate about it after the fact.

[A]

Okay. But you don't remember the performance itself. That's hateful.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

I didn't know you hated women. Well.

[B]

Oh, geez.

[A]

No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. So Sheri Renee Scott, as a performer is such a fascinating one to me. Her tone of comedy, it's very, very dry. Yeah. And she has played a Lot of characters that have been played bubbly by other people. And she is much more. I don't know. I think it's what makes her so special. And also why sometimes people, when they. When they do, when they take on roles that she's originated, later on, they get the wrong ideas going forward. Like with someone like Amneris, yes, she is vapid for a lot of the first act, but you do have to kind of show the nuggets of who that person's going to become later on. It can't just be a total 180. It's one of the things I. One of the issues I've had with some Glindas in the past, you know, with Chenoweth, with Jennifer Laura Thompson, even if they were bubbly and silly, you got the journey that they were going to become a much more serious person later on. They played it much more grounded. And then some Glindas, you're like, you are a totally different in Act 1 and Act 2.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no connection. So Sheri, you know, playing bubbly, for her, it's just about playing it earnest and straight. Right. And just taking as seriously things that other people would consider dumb as people would take politics. It's actually what makes Reese Witherspoon so delightful and Legally Blonde is that her. El's not dumb. She just takes very seriously what other people would consider flipping things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, like, the way that Sharon is got in that scene in the pool. Spa. Spa. Pool, yeah. You know, with the floating.

[B]

Her spa. Her personal spa.

[A]

Yeah. It's. So I asked you about, like, Heather moments that do it for you. One Heather moment that does for me is in the Not Me scene when they're at the market and she's looking at the fabrics and she goes, I'll say this for you Egyptians, your thread count is amazing. It's. It's very Eartha Kit. And it's a funny line, but the way she says it is extra sweet. Sheri, a moment that I think about, vocals aside, is the way when. When, you know, in that troubling scene when Aida is gifted to her, and then Aida endears herself to her, and Emera says, a slave who knows her fabrics. I'm keeping her. And she says to Merab, go, Merib, show Aida the sewing room. Most amneris be like, go, Merib, Show Aid at the sewing room. But Sherry, she does this thing where she, like, she takes her hands and, like, tilts her body, and she says, like, go, Merib, show Aida the Sewing room. Like in a like almost sort of hostess way of. Of like, you know, like show her the. The rigmarole of how we do. And it's. Yeah, it's. It's just so good and so specific and so like, it's something that you. Most people wouldn't think to do. The way she says that, go marip. Show Aida the sewing room. And it's. I don't know. I just love her. I love her very dearly.

[B]

She's great.

[A]

Yeah. What's it. What's a Sherry moment for you that you can think of in the.

[B]

In the show?

[A]

No, in life. No.

[B]

Yeah, in life.

[A]

When.

[B]

I mean, we already talked about it, but when she walked out from behind. From behind. From behind said wall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And sings I know the truth because like, to your point, like, she's so, like, she's layered amneris with such like, like emotional intelligence. Although she is like, kind of silly that then when she drops in and you believe it and have this like, horrifying realization with her that like her whole life is a lie, it's like. It's amazing.

[A]

Yeah. It's also. I love the fact that it's not just that Radha Mae's. Oh, the man I love and have always loved doesn't love me, has never loved me. The person who became my friend, my closest friend until now, it's with her. They both lied to me. And they know. And it's hard to have a betrayal like that and not kind of center yourself in it because you're living your life and all you know, is your perspective. So that number is interesting that I know the Truth song because it could be a very, like, for like, you know, Christina Aguilera. Whoa. It's all about me. But Sherry sings it very straight and with a very sort of dead face almost. And I think that is an interesting way to play it because you could go for the like, Fantine, I dreamed dream heartbreak. But the fact that we are watching someone who until this moment has had a lot of life and light in her just be so dead. That is. Yeah. That's the impact. And then watching her get literally caged in by her wedding dress.

[B]

Yeah. But like, I think that that's where like the. The show succeeds again.

[A]

It's like. It's like.

[B]

It's like a fucked up thing, but like, they did something like deeply. Right. Yeah.

[A]

And it's. That is a moment for me where if we were to go more organic and grounded and realistic of, you know, that time period, we would lose A lot of that heightened poetry that the original production would often nail, which is, you know, again, a design setting. You know, there's. The actual set design of Aida was not terribly intricate. It was a lot of, you know, fabric. Fabric and things like kind of signing on and off in a boxed in environment. Like, Crowley is not that huge of a. Let's have every contraption in the world on stage. He's really good at forced perspective. That's really a big thing for him.

[B]

And lasers.

[A]

Lasers. He does. Well, there is that laser pyramid. Yes. Step too far, which is just. What. Yeah, that's. Well, that's a case of mtv. Of sometimes they nail it, and sometimes you're like, okay, yeah. Yes, we. We used to be a country and. But I also find it funny. He has won so many scenic design Tonys, and he's never won for costumes. And I have to imagine that was a year that he thought he could win.

[B]

Those were pretty costumes.

[A]

He lost to Kiss Me Kate. And you. You couldn't. You couldn't lose to those. You couldn't win against those costumes. But the Aida costumes, you know, there's a lot of simplicity to. To it. Like, the. Giving Aida a purple dress is a wonderful indication of, like, yes, she is a slave, but there's still a regalness about her. She will always be royal. Yeah. You'll never be glamour. But the literal concept of emneris. As she's singing. I know the truth in that beautiful dark blue, you know, bathrobe, silken bathrobe, kimono, what have you. And then being changed out of that into her wedding dress. And it's not just enough that she's wearing a white dress that also kind of looks like it has a bit of a Asian flair to it. Like, it's. It almost kind of looks like Kim's dress in Miss Saigon.

[B]

Yeah, I see. I see that.

[A]

Yeah. But then to top it off, they then put her veil on. And it's not enough to just have it be a veil. It is literally like a.

[B]

A cage.

[A]

Yeah. Like a beekeeper's nest around her entire body. And it is. Yeah.

[B]

And it creates a silhouette of, like a. Of a. Like, of a mummy. Like a mummy's tomb.

[A]

Yeah. Like she is truly being encased into her fate. And it is. It's a great moment. And. And it transitions right from that number into the wedding, which is visually beautiful, but very cold, like that white psych with the petals falling. And. And she and Radames do not have a single smile on their Face. And the music is not happy. It's very like, yes, you've. You're being sealed into this now. The fates. Have you watched the Wicked teaser, I'm assuming? Yes. Yeah, yeah. That photo, that. That clip of Ariana in the wedding gown with, like, the butterflies everywhere. It's sort of like the sad inverse of that. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

I don't remember the way trailer.

[A]

That was hateful.

[B]

Hateful. I'm hateful here.

[A]

Well, it made a lot of traction because everyone's like, do Glynda and Fiyero actually get married in this version? Because it shows Glinda in what looks like a wedding gown walking with, like, butterflies flying all over her. It's a beautiful shot, but it looks like a very poetic image and a loving image, whereas in Aida, it's a similar idea, but done in a very cold manner. And I think it shows that, you know, if Aida, as a Disney musical, is not necessarily willing to delve into tricky waters of the relationship dynamic of Radames and Aida and that political concept, it is willing to at least go into the sadness of the human experience of tying yourself to a situation or a person where there's nothing but pain of having obligation be your ultimate doing you in in the end.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's real. I also think, like, looking back on it, like, the musical is successful again, like, with that after Written in the Stars and I know the truth, they, like, they wrap that shit up.

[A]

Act two is really short.

[B]

Like, they wrap it up because they're like, well, we can't. We can't focus on this. Which, yeah, you know, to their credit, they're like, everybody gets it. There is that moment. Like, there is something to be said about, like, everybody knows that feeling. Except, like, maybe my brother. Sorry. He got married when he was very young.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But, like, you know, like, you have. You know what that pang is and, like, you know what that feels like. And, like, once you've hit that, you've got to get out of it or, like, you. You're gonna lose the audience, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they do.

[A]

No, they do. I think it is. It is fascinating just how short act two is, because act one is, like an hour and 20.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then act two is 40 minutes. It's. It's all this stuff that gets set up and not everything gets really fulfilled in the end. But also, I mean, with the whole. Because they. They. Things like them using the wedding to distract everyone while they get Aida's father to escape and that, you know, there's no way that that can end happily. There's. It's too much of a police country for them to fully get away with it. Best case scenario, which is what happens is that her father gets away. She does not. And then, of course, Marib, sacrificial lamb that he is, sacrificial twink, gets slaughtered on the pier. But they remember, they have that moment where Radames realizes that Aida is Aida because he doesn't know at that point. And it's just like. It's just another subject that they introduce so late that they can't really spend a lot of time on. And, I mean, Adam Pascal sure doesn't really sell the moment. But I. I challenge any Radames to really go through the cycle of emotions that someone would go through in 90 seconds of, you're here, you're not who you say you are. It's all so clear now. I feel betrayed. Oh, shit. But I forgive you anyway. And now we're getting captured. Like, how do you sell that cycle in 90 seconds? I don't think you can.

[B]

I don't think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's a. It's a fool's errand. But in a weird way, like, I don't find that section most impactful because of the two of them. I find it most impactful because of Emneris, of I know the truth, and of the. The final decision she makes because she goes into Radames prison cell and he says, you know, save Aida. Doesn't he say, like, basically try to save her or. No, because she tells him to save himself. She says, you know, say that you were dupe. Say it was all whatever. And he's like, yeah. And he's like, I refuse to do that.

[B]

He's like, no, I'm in love with her.

[A]

Yeah. And I. Does she go to Aida's cell? I can't remember.

[B]

She does.

[A]

She does.

[B]

She goes to both of them.

[A]

Yeah. And. Oh, yeah, because she was like, I should, you know, and she apologizes.

[B]

Like, Aida apologizes to her.

[A]

Yes. And then they do something like the guards, like, mishandle Ada in some way, and a Neris tells them to, like, back off and then says, after all, she is a princess. And it's such a. It's a good. It's one of those moments where, like, it's a really good line because how you say it as an actress could be so meaty. It can be both cutting and also pride. Like, Sherry just says it in a very Matter of fact, way where she. Because after. After everything that she's gone through already, she still wants to give this woman who she ultimately does respect and care for, a little bit of dignity. And I think that's also what leads to her decision, in addition to just having human empathy.

[B]

Yeah. It's like decency. Human decency. Yeah.

[A]

Which doesn't happen a lot, but it happens quite frequently in Disney musicals and from places you least expect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Why? It's true. Sometimes we get deep on here. Will I love it. As well you should. We were. I mean, you were talking about the Act 1 finale, Gods Love Nubia, which we didn't actually say that's the Act 1 finale, but the Gods Love Nubia, which was originally in Act 2, and then they moved to Act 1. Smart choice. I believe they moved it in Chicago. I wonder where it was in Act 2 originally. Maybe that's. Maybe it was when Ada's father was.

[B]

Well, her father gets captured at the end of act one, Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what. Yeah. Why they sing it.

[A]

Yeah. Because Aida has a conflict of interest. After she and Radames sing Elaborate Lives, they most likely. It is not said. It's not even totally implied, but they most likely got dicked down. And, you know, in the afterglow of Sex, Aida says, I love you. Sure, why not? I do like the way that Heather says it, because it's very. It is. It is a hard. Saying I love you on stage is always hard to do just because very rarely are you set up in a way where it feels justified. And so she says it in a very light blurting out kind of way. And then immediately she puts her head in her hands and starts, like, laughing out of embarrassment to herself. And I'm like, yeah, I think that's a good way to do it. Saying you love someone so quickly and immediately after sex. And then finding out that her father is captured and seeing Radames get the news and be delighted by it and then realize, oh, shit. Because she doesn't know who Aida is at that point. He just thinks that, I'm sorry that your king got captured, babe.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But this is war. And she almost says, he's my father, but she doesn't.

[B]

She goes and sings a song instead.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's how one might describe any musical. She almost says that. But she goes and sings a song instead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The right choice when describing any musical. What happens next? They almost say something, and then they go, sing a song instead. Yeah. Do you think that's why some people hate musicals.

[B]

I mean, maybe, but, like, that's. I mean, when it's these songs, how could you hate it?

[A]

How can you hate it when she could give a. She could give a des. Camisado speech like in Evita, but instead she sings, the gods love Nubia.

[B]

I mean, it's so good.

[A]

It is. It's a great song. And. And I. I appreciate that. A lot of these songs do have a true musical theater build to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I mean, Dance of the Robe might be the most. No, no. You know what song weirdly has, like, a little too much musical energy for the task is how I know you. It's still. It's a. It's a very. Yes.

[B]

That felt like we needed to give Meru a song.

[A]

Yes. And it's. And it's very. This is your one shot. So just shoot for the rafters.

[B]

Well, yeah, it's so that, like, some. That he could sing something that. That song feels like it was back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Back written like they wrote the one in Act 2, and then they were like, oh, I guess he should sing this in act one.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. I also. This is gonna sound like merit pate. It's really not merit. It's just. I don't. I don't know if it's necessary. And every time I hear it, it makes me giggle. And it's in Not Me in Radames first section of Not Me as he's having his first realization. And Merav is pretty much just singing the subtext as counterpoint backup. You know what I'm talking about?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I can't believe he's changing.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

For a show that I do like, mostly that is a line where I'm like, please fully cut it. You're not doing your actor any justice by making him sing that.

[B]

I mean, that's fair.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's okay to have the. He's in love, but he's not the only one who'll be changed. I think that line's. Okay. Keep that. That's a nice little moment. And it transitions us into the market for Aida. And I'm Neris. But the. I can't believe he's changing.

[B]

Well, he can't believe it. He's looking at. He can't believe he's changing.

[A]

I can't believe it's not butter.

[B]

Yeah. I can't believe he's changing.

[A]

It's just like.

[B]

It's a weird. It's set to a weird melody. It's very big. I think, like, all of Merab's stuff is just, like, a little too big for who he is in the show.

[A]

Yes. I described this with Sideshow, which was like, sometimes in musicals, when it. When something gets laughable in a song, ultimately what it is is that it's just too much energy for the task. It's music that's a little too epic for the moment or a lyric that's a little too on the nose. And I think it mostly works in Sideshow because sideshow does that 99% of the time, so you're just kind of on board for that epic weirdness the entire time. And Aida, I think, musically speaking, they actually have far more restraint than people give it credit for.

[B]

It has a lot of restraint, but.

[A]

When there are moments when it is not restrained, it's not. Easy as Life is a song that you could argue is a lot of energy for the task, but ultimately, it's too epic to be denied.

[B]

Yeah. And the stakes are so high.

[A]

Yes. Although. What does easy as life mean?

[B]

It's easy as a life.

[A]

As living a life. As living any life is.

[B]

Like. No, I think it's like, easy as giving up your own life for the thing. Like. Like the life that she could have with Radames is not worth it. It's easy. It's easy as a life to give that up.

[A]

And she's, of course, saying that sarcastically. It's easy. It's easy to just not think about any of that and forget any of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You think that's what it means?

[B]

I maybe. I don't know. I've never thought too much.

[A]

I don't know. This is the problem with the Tim Rice lyric for me, because I do like him as a lyricist, and I think what he does really well is cheek. It's why I actually boots the house down, Mama on all of his lyrics. For strongest lyrics, Google it up. I'm very boots the house down, mama on all of strongest suit. It's cheeky. It's camp. It's great. And it's why I actually really love his lyrics for Peron's latest flame in Evita, because everyone's being bitchy in that, and it's so much fun. But every now and then I'm like, what do. What does she mean?

[B]

Yeah, there's no I'm wrong. There's no in there.

[A]

You're right. It's easy as life.

[B]

It's easy. As easy as life.

[A]

Yeah. Well, just in the same way, like, I don't. I never knew what every moment Red letter Meant and I. Aladdin. But that's a term, I guess.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Every moment, red letter. I don't know. I never. I never knew that term before. But sometimes Tim Rice writes a lyric where it scans. It absolutely scans. But you're also like, but what does that mean? And it's not like a Sondheim lyric where you go, oh, there are levels to it. It's complex, you know, a tiny Titian, as many people love to discuss with liaisons. But it's more just like, what. What does that term mean, sir?

[B]

It's.

[A]

Easiest because all she has to do is forget she ever knew him. Forget how much she loves him.

[B]

Although she only says it, like, at the very end of the song, too. She says it, like, once in the middle and once at the end. She says, it's easy. It's easy. Like, it's easy. Like, that's, like, sarcasm. Blah, blah, blah. Those very words don't let up. They keep on coming. All I ever wanted was wanted, wanted, wanted. And I'm throwing it away. Sorry. The reverb epic. It's easy. It's easy as life. And then I see the faces of the warned, defeated people of father and nation. These are great. Lyrics are easy. So easy. And they'll all think about them until the earth draws in around me. Ugh. And though I choose to leave him, this is the love story. And though I choose to leave him for another kind of love, her nation. This is no denial, no betrayal, but redemption redeemed in my own eyes and. And in the pantheon above. It's easy. It's easy as life. It's. Yeah, life is easy. It's like. I think it's, like, flipping, like, I don't know you.

[A]

It's okay to not know. I don't.

[B]

I believe it. That's all that matters.

[A]

I still believe.

[B]

I think, speaking of restraint, that number just, like, just put her in a black dress on a blank stage and let her sing a song. I mean. Yes.

[A]

And walk around the stage.

[B]

Walk around the stage.

[A]

And also, like, kind of live in the basement of a register for most of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even, like, the final note is not C. Yeah. It's not the highest note she sings in the show, but she does. This is okay. This is truly letting a talon alien be an alien. In both the boot we watched. And also when I watched it at the library, there's no final cutoff for Heather at that. At the end of that song, she truly sings that note for as long as she chooses.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And on both videos, they black out before they actually get to the button.

[B]

Because the stage manager wants to go home.

[A]

It's kind of. It's pretty much like everyone be like, okay, Heather clearly can go after another 20 seconds, but we can't. We have to keep going. So, like, they. The lights go out and they button it during the blackout. And then Heather still, like, is holding it for another two seconds.

[B]

And the mic. Yeah, they switch the sound cue and her mic's off.

[A]

It's. Yeah, it's. It's. I. I love it. I. It's. It's shit like that that I love. But, I mean, I. A rice lyric that I actually really love is in Dance of the Robe at the end because it builds that great moment that I know expectations are high and almost beyond my fulfillment, but they won't hear a. A sign of a doubt, a word of a doubt, or a sign of weakness.

[B]

My loyal and I think passable duty is clear.

[A]

Right? Is it my loyal and impassable duty or is it my.

[B]

Is it impossible?

[A]

It's impossible. Yeah. But I need to look this up because the reason I got to this line also is. I didn't know quite what the word was because of. Again, because of Heather's accent and the way she says it. She goes like, my Lionel. And I always thought it was like, my Lionel, Impossible. I was like, who's Lionel? But I need to look this up because I think it's. Where is it? I know my. My nigh on impossible duty is clear. Oh, that's. That's kind of English, right? Nigh on. Yeah, My. My duty is nigh on impossible. My nigh on impossible duty is clear.

[B]

She's singing.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's fun. But I. I love that lyric. I think it's a good one. I think the music is really. Is really powerful there. And I think it encapsulates the conflict of Aida's drama in a nutshell. Not just the radames of it all. That's where easy his life is. What I think is so fascinating in Aida's character is, again, mirroring Emneris having to step up to the plate. And whereas Emneris never really thought it would happen, Aida, at this point of the story, doesn't think she deserves it. Because what we learn is that it's because of Aida that she and the other Nubian women with her got captured. Because apparently there's, like, a section of Nubia that was, like, infamous for, you know, getting captured, because it was like it was off the Nile, right? And her father told her, like, do not go near there. Stay. Like, this is. Like, this is the area that's safe. They don't ever go here, you know, they always go on the river. Don't go there. And she's like. But I. She's like, I hadn't been to the river in years, and I wanted to go, and I made my friends go with me, and we all got captured. So not only is it the power of giving her people hope and of coming up with a plan to, you know, free themselves, it's also her feeling like she doesn't deserve that responsibility. She's not worthy of it. And so her coming to Jesus woman in that song isn't. Well, as they're like, aida, you're the chosen one. She's not like, yeah, it is me. It's me. Hi, I'm the hero. It's me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's like, ugh, this is awful. Everyone wants so much of me, and I can't do it. But fuck it, I guess I'll try. And I think that's. I think that's very relatable and very powerful. It's not defying gravity. I'm up. It's me on high. It's, well, here goes fucking nothing.

[B]

Well, it's duty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know. Do you have duty, Will, in life?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think my duty is to, like, be a decent human being and be kind. And I think that that's, like. I don't know. I think that's the human condition. Like, that's what we should all be trying to do.

[A]

Sorry. Be kind. Be kind. I don't. I'm not.

[B]

I know.

[A]

That doesn't. I don't understand. I'm not familiar.

[B]

Sure you do.

[A]

I don't know. I've been called terrible by some people in the past.

[B]

Well, then don't be terrible, Matt.

[A]

I'm doing my best test. My nigh on impossible duty isn't clear to me. I walk down the street and I think I'm being nice. And someone's like, why are you so awful? You're terrible, Muriel. And. And I don't know what to do. I put on my robe and I do a dance. And yet still it's not enough. It's not enough.

[B]

I mean, that robe is also so gorgeous.

[A]

Yeah. When she was like, your robe should be perfect. I'm like, I don't know. That rope's pretty epic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd wear it.

[B]

Yeah. It's nice with the hat. It's like fierce.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, it's gorgeous. Beautiful image. Stage images for days in this production. I mean, the. The. The women doing the laundry in the Nile, like that. That transition got applause in both videos I watched.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. No, there. There's. There is a. There was a taste level to that original production that again, sometimes was so breathtakingly gorgeous and other times you're like, choice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fashion show. The caged head. The. Yeah. The. The glow in the dark moon on our.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Should we just. I don't think we need to discuss it much, but we should just at least acknowledge that fashion Runway, the two women on the Runway where their headdresses are so huge that when they pass each other, they have to.

[B]

There's like a dance. It too.

[A]

They, like.

[B]

They, like, move their heads.

[A]

Yeah. It's a head tilt and there's a full drum beat on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love it. I think that's gay rights.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, like, the fashion show is spectacular. Again, it comes after her being gifted a slave. It's weird.

[A]

Yeah. It's a weird moment to have that. And it doesn't really.

[B]

It doesn't further the plot by any means, but it does endear you to amneris.

[A]

It doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't even tell us much about Mneris than we don't already know. It's literally just a song of, you know what? I really like dressing up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love looking good. And.

[B]

And sometimes when somebody wrote a bop, you gotta sing the bop.

[A]

And. And Sheri Renee Scott was like, you know, my nigh. An impossible duty is to try to get an entire audience pregnant. And I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try to do it.

[B]

And she succeeded.

[A]

She succeeded. 1700 people in the Palace Theater eight times a week.

[B]

Just wild. So many seats.

[A]

So many seats. That's power.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. It is enough.

[B]

For so long. It's wild. It's wild that it happened.

[A]

Yeah. It was. It was around for. For so long. Something we should probably talk about because it is part of the. You mentioned it already, but it is part of the reason why the legacy of the show has now been called problematic by some people and why we now have this version that Ms. Williams has been touring around Europe, eventually bringing it back to New York at some point. But it is the casting. It is the. And the. And just the. And the tone in general of the politics of the show, of trying to have its cake and eat it, too, of being this serious musical, but still a Disney musical, but Originally in the Broadway production and something that was carried out for most of the time up until, I think Muni recently is casting Caucasian actors as the Egyptians and black actors as Nubians. And Egyptians are not Caucasian.

[B]

No, they're not.

[A]

They're not at all. But that has become so part of the DNA of the show. Is that really a fault of the show? But that's something that's been there from the get go. Why do you think that decision was made.

[B]

Because of. I don't. My guess is that because of the problems of the industry and, like, Disney's unwillingness to, like, go find, like, people of the right ethnicity to, like, do the thing, because, like, training and opportunity and all of those things for white people is much greater than people of color for the most part. And so they had more white people at their disposal and they just decided to do it that way would be my guess. I don't think that that was probably a conscious choice. I think they thought it would be interesting to, like, really show, like, how. Like, to really differentiate between the groups of the people. And what better way to do that than white and black people without thinking through the implications of what that casting actually was doing.

[A]

A very simple way to telegraph to an audience. These are the groups. I'm reminded of one of my summers when I interned at Music Theater International, and one of my jobs was to respond to inquiries from people who were interested in producing one of their licensed shows. And someone had emailed and this was, you know, 2009, 2010. And they said, you know, we really want to do hairspray. Our students really want to do hairspray. We don't have a large black community. Is it possible to do costume differentiation with the roles? So, like, all the black characters are in purple shirts and all the white characters are in red shirts. And I emailed back and I said, are you asking if that's illegal? Because technically speaking, no, you're not changing the text and you're not doing blackface, which I think is illegal. I was like. But I said, but I urge you to not do that just at all. Because that is just don't do the show if you don't have those people. You know, that's. That's not. That's not good. But I was like. I was reminded of Aida with that. I was just like, we want to make sure that audiences can get in a moment who everybody is. And it's true, in a moment they'll get it, but that doesn't make it correct.

[B]

Yeah. And like, I did. Technically. You can find videos online of, like, high schools, of all white high schools doing Aida. And like, like, I was part of it. Yeah. And at the end of the day.

[A]

Like.

[B]

I could be wrong here. I. I don't think anybody ever says, like, you are a black person in the show or, like, you are a white person, but, like, they are referred to as Egyptians and Nubians. And stylistically, because of, like, who created the roles, like, there is. It is undeniably, like, black music and like, that's who should be telling that story. So it's like, I don't know, it's.

[A]

Just like, yeah, it's what's weird to me. And I'm only going off of my journey with it and the people I knew. And of course, you know, I went to theater camp with a lot of white Jewish kids. When we did do Aida, race was not on anyone's mind because no one, none of us ever thought of Aida as a show about race. And I think part of that is the Disney of it all and like, you know, the clashing tones of it all. And even though, yes, it is about people from real countries with, you know, real political, you know, issues, it. The way it's done does not feel like a documentary. It feels like a, you know, Disney gay fantasia on, On Nubian themes. And it's, It's. It feels like almost this, like, other entity. But I don't know, I think that was just sort of. Because when we all would think of Aida, we would think of my strongest suit and we would think of the costumes and we would think of the high belting and Adam Pascal's chest, because who wouldn't? And it's only since then that you kind of. And, and as you talk to other people that you take into account all the actual realistic connotations of that show.

[B]

Well, it also shows the flaws in, like, world history in, like, the education system, because, like, I think that we don't necessarily think, like, it's set in a far away place and like, a far away time at like, the dawn of civilization that in. In far enough away that like, we don't viscerally, like, think about, like, Egypt and, and Nubia and like, like what that meant and how that would, like, that really was the beginning of the Egyptian empire and like, how like, the pyramids were built and all of those things, like, but because it's so far away and disconnected from our experience in a way like that we don't, we don't have the same reaction it's also.

[A]

I mean, it's a whole history with Disney not to make them a villain about this, but it is something that they have been always known for. And I've talked about this in other episodes as well. And, you know, shows of the past were dealing with certain cultures or regions. The way that Disney throughout, like the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, you know, the way that they would kind of portray a race or a country was usually finding one or two somewhat accurate details and then just blowing them up and making them like the. The point. And then that's sort of how stereotypes are born, right? Because it is simplistic. And granted, a lot of Disney is meant for children. And even if the intentions are admirable, the execution can sometimes be faulty. And then also people will take that at face value and as gospel and just run with it like, oh, well, I learned this at the age of five, so that's clearly all I need to think about from here on out. And that's just sort of how Disney has always done that up until pretty recently. And even now it's like, still kind of tricky. But I think Aida just sort of follows a similar formula of other Disney works of like, as you said, this Faraway land. Don't think about it too much. Like, here are one or two accurate things about it. The rest of it is, you know.

[B]

It'S dehumanized in a way that, like, you don't. That. Yeah, but it is cringe. Like, some of those lines are cringe.

[A]

I mean, the way that. Because they. They wanted it to be like the first adult Disney musical in a lot of ways. And again, if you read like all the articles about it when it was coming out and how they promoted like, they. They also were. It was the first Disney work to kind of promote sex in a way.

[B]

Or like the greatest love story of all time or something like that. It's like.

[A]

And they. They did all these photo shoots with Heather and Sherry and Adam just like made up for the gods, you know, Adam's shirt half open carnal. And it was. It was selling sex. And you watch the way that Heather and Adam do elaborate lives. And it is a very sensual staging with the two of them, but it is still a Disney show and so they never go further. And it's a case of wanting their cake and eating it too. And for all the merits that the show has, I understand when people have issues with it because I'm like, yeah, no, like, as you said, that part is kind of cringe. And it's just it's when you can't totally make up your mind what path you're going down with a show. When you've switched to another road halfway through, it's like, wait, what's happening now? Yeah, we were having a very serious discussion about slavery and now we've got a fashion show with a light up dress.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, let's call a rupace.

[A]

All over the place. But, you know, choices are made and we live by our choices. But speaking of Ms. Williams, you know, we have Disney and her because. How do you say her name? Shelley.

[B]

Shelley, yeah.

[A]

Shelley Williams was in the original company of Aida and did it for most of the run. I feel like she was in it for a long time.

[B]

I think she might have done the whole run.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's what I thought. She understudied Heather, went on a bunch. She might have gone out for the tour a couple of times. Again, one of those things where it's like, you know, you know the part, go out here, do it there, then come back. She got entrusted by Disney to, you know, bring Aida back because they. They've always wanted to. It did very well and it has its fan base. It never was done in the West End, by the way, or on the West End. It was no in the West End. It was never done in the West End. Was done in Germany, I want to say. Yeah. And it's currently running in the Netherlands. So Shelley had a production that she had been workshopping as director that was going to be done at Paper Mill that got canceled due to Covid and then they just never picked it back up. So now this production's in the Netherlands and they're hoping to bring it back. It is a contemporary feel without compromising the original quality. Nehepka, that was her character's name. There we go. The quote she says is this update was a way for audiences to more easily connect the politics of ancient Egypt to today. One of the most fascinating things about the time in which Aida is set was that gender inequality was not an issue then. Pharaohs could be female. Among both the Egyptians and the Nubians, women were also commanders of armies and soldiers.

[B]

Satan.

[A]

Natalie Walker. That was actually historically accurate for you. And they were the best doctors in Egypt. Women held property and took it with them when they got married. It made me realize that in our fight for equal rights, we women actually need to get back what we already had then. As a mother, I think it's fantastic that I can tell my daughters and their friends about this and that we must reclaim the position that we always had. And she's done some tweaks with David Henry Huang on the book to include some of that. Go off, sis.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I don't think Aida is really about that, either the rarity opera or this incarnation, but, like, by all means, include some. Some of those details. Happy to have it. Not mad. As long as the fashion show is still there.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah.

[A]

Can we make Merap a woman, then? And instead of I can't believe he's changing, have it be like, I'm gonna be a doctor.

[B]

I mean, yikes.

[A]

It's a better lyric than I. It's a better lyric. I can't believe he's changing.

[B]

I'm joking. That was so bad.

[A]

Well, guys, my joke was so bad that it truly made Will choke.

[B]

And we're back.

[A]

And we're back.

[B]

No. Yeah, that's interesting that, like, that's the. I'm. I'm out of water.

[A]

No, no, I'll get you water.

[B]

Oh, no, no. Yeah, it's interesting that that's her. Like, she wants to go into the gender politics of it, but it is true about ancient Egypt. Like, yeah, I think, like, the third king of Egypt was a woman. It's like, they didn't.

[A]

They didn't care. Yeah, I love that. No, it's. It's. I don't know her work as a director very well. I have not seen Louise, and I've not seen the Notebook yet. Where I am hopeful and yet also cautious is there are a lot of people in theater who are very smart but don't always execute well. You know, they have these ideas, and then you watch and you go, I didn't see any of that. Or, like, you know, yeah, your ideas are there, but also, like, you don't know how to do a scene transition. And that's not a Shelley thing. Again, I don't know any of her work, but I've seen that with a couple of directors this season, past seasons where they give great interviews, and then you go see the show and you're like, so why is everything flat? Why is none of this happening? Why is none of this working? So I just hope that if she. If that's what they're doing, that it still maintains that effective musical theater. Je ne sais quoi.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I hope so for someone, because she clearly loves the show, and I think that's more important than anything right now. She's not coming in being like, we're gonna Fix it so much. She was like, I think we can make some tweaks since some creeks have been found over time. And I think that's totally fair. This is not a Lear situation. This is a Shelly situation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, yeah, it's. It's so interesting. It would be really interesting to see a version of it. Maybe I'll fly to the Netherlands and see what they're doing.

[A]

I would not put that past you.

[B]

Yeah, just like, to see how it lands, like, in, like, reality in space in 2024.

[A]

Yeah, I. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, because as we said, a lot of the things that are. Ouch. Are tied to the things that make it ferocious. And I don't know if that's like a poisoned well situation or if it's just like a. You kind of just have to take. Take it for the bumps that it has.

[B]

Yeah. I think you have to try and get rid of some of the bumps. Like, that's.

[A]

That's fair. I mean, an example I'll give, not with Aida, but just in general, you know, problematic shows, quote, unquote. One of the shows that people are always trying to fix is Mack and Mabel because they go, well, that score is so incredible. You just got to fix the book. My hot take has always been the score of Mack and Mabel is actually not a great musical theater score. It's a great collection of songs. Because a lot of those songs, wonderful as they are on their own, are not earned in the show or even tonally go with what the show is trying to do.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. Mack and Mabel. I know the score.

[A]

That's like, there are a couple of songs. When you listen to them, you're like, oh, my God, that song's incredible. And when you watch it, you're like, oh, that's. The tone of this song is so off for what's happening right.

[B]

Right now.

[A]

Sure. And I just think, like, oh, I think Mac and Mel, if you want to take that story and make it a musical, just do a total overhaul and write a new show. Because I think that that score, wonderful as it is to listen to, just does not work with that story. But that's a case of, like, the well being slightly poisoned and people not really realizing that. And they're so tied to the. To that score because so much of it works in their head. They want to, you know, fix everything else around it. I'm like, you kind of just have to rooted up, but I don't know if that's the case with Aida? I think there. There are moments that, as you said, you could just sort of excise and. And nothing would be worse for it.

[B]

Yeah, Excise and also, like, just ex. Explore, like, why it's there and what it's serving. So, like. Like, at a macro level, I think the show ultimately is about part. Probably too many things.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And if you went in there and, like, with the blessing of the authors, like, presented a more streamlined version that focused on, like, one of the things, instead of introducing too many ideas for, like, it's funny that it's based on an opera and it's only 2 hours and 20 minutes long.

[A]

Hmm. Well, opera is fascinating to me because I feel like with opera, it's not a ton of plot in general told over a very long stretch of time. So they. They use a lot of time to.

[B]

Explore, like, big emotions.

[A]

Yeah. Big emotions and, like, those kind of nuances and giving it the space to breathe, which is why those operas have consistently.

[B]

But the opera is also not about the plot. It's never about the. It's never about the plot of the opera. Like, it is about the emotions of the people who are experiencing things. So, like, they're not worried about, like, making sure that you understand, like, what's going on. What you. What you are invested in is the emotions of the people and what is happening to them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like. But that is not what musical theater is. And so, like, you have to, like, do this arc thing. And, like, there are too many big emotional journeys in Aida. I think, in the version that we saw, ultimately, to, like, address them in a way that is satisfying or, like, speaks to the, like, the ultimate, like, issues at hand.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Slavery.

[A]

Yes. I mean, the power dynamic of Radames and Aida in general.

[B]

Yeah. It's too much. It's too much to, like. Yeah. He cannot speak to the way he cannot speak to her. The way he speaks to her. If you want them to sing those love songs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think.

[A]

I think it's just such a far place for them to get to from where they start to where they get to. And the show, as you said, because it's trying to do so much, doesn't have enough Runway for them to earn the conclusion of them being in love.

[B]

Yeah. And not to beat a dead horse. And we could probably talk about this for another three hours, but I think at the end of the day, the thing that was most surprising to me when we went back and watched the bootleg, and this is why I would, like if include this in this series of the podcast to begin with is when he said some. Like, the first thing he says where you're like, whoa. Like, what the fuck did he just say to her happened? I completely forgot that he speaks to her that way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, my takeaway from that musical was, like, a positive experience about music. Music, musical, storytelling, like, emotion, performance, all of those things. And completely blocked out how crazy the shit he says to her is.

[A]

Well, I. The one that I remember you truly, like, jumping off the couch. It started early. I remember that. But for the most part, it was mostly you just kind of in a ball, you know, on the couch watching and being like, oh. But then, like, the first time you truly, like, stood up and went, what? It was. It was the laundry scene, and it was post the Enchantment passing through. Post My Strongest Suit reprise. Post Dance of the Robe.

[B]

So there likes he, like, reminds her.

[A]

That he owns her and could and could sexually assault her if he wanted to.

[B]

Right. That's what it is.

[A]

Because what it. What it is is, is that because he's already on the. Like, you're not like other girls and what. And he's like, he. The point. We're trying to get the idea that he's already starting to soften towards her, and when she's washing the clothes with the other slaves, he's there with his, like, soldiers overseeing, and he's trying to talk to her alone. And basically, like, he wants a connection. What he. What he wants to say is like, I want to get to know you. That's not what the dialogue actually is. Because she was like, oh, you want, you know, something for me? And he was like, if I was like, if I wanted you that way, I could have you right now. And you're like, what? Yeah. Because he doesn't even say it's. Well, it comes out of left field.

[B]

And it's just, like, a stark reminder of, like, the stakes of, like, what their relationship are and, like, why. Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah, a stark reminder. The fact that he's aware and then also goes in for a kiss, which is supposed to be. It's supposed to be, like, the real breaking point that lets her emotions start to flood through, but that's not how it comes off at all. And the idea of. Okay, so we talked about this with Carousel and Miss aigon and west side Story. Love at first sight isn't actually love at first sight, although I have now met a few people who are with their partners who are like, no. The moment I saw them, I was like, I think it's you. I said, sure. But also, it's not like I'm fully in love. You can't really comprehend that yet. But there is a connection there that makes you, as an animal, go, who are you? And that's ultimately what things like Tony, Maria in Dance at the Gym are doing. That's what Julie and Billy are doing. And as they explore each other and that connection becomes carnal chemistry. That's when things get messy, as well they should in a dramatic love story. Aida. It's a lot of talking, trying to convince the audience that this is going to be okay because they're two smart individuals who are going to overcome this really, really problematic dynamic, and they never do. And we kind of just have to say fuck it and go along with it. And it's an indicator of how Disney has now dug itself into a hole with its live action remakes, which I'm assuming you've seen some of them. Yeah, those live action remakes like Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, Aladdin, all those. The quote unquote changes they make to them where they say, oh, we're fixing problems. They're not actually fixing problems. They are addressing comments that people online have said over the years. And it's when you watch the remakes, it's them being like, well, see, we're addressing it. We're addressing the problem. We're going to fix it now. But now you've just opened up a floodgate of other problems and other questions. So, like by making Radames and Aida acknowledge and try to talk themselves through the problems of their origin story, of how. Of how they have to interact with each other every day and the realities of their situation. It makes it worse for us because it's like, well, now, like Now I have 9,000 more questions. Like, I need it to just sort of be that chemical, like parsing each other out, love at first sight sort of thing where it's like, I. Like there's something about you that I care about, but I can't because of our situation. But I can't help it.

[B]

But I like this stuff in the song. They just need to shut up and sing.

[A]

You're just telling. You are telling white men to shut up and sing.

[B]

Correct?

[A]

Will, I think that's the least problematic thing you've said today. You know, you've made a career of telling white men to shut up in sing.

[B]

I mean, have I? No. A little.

[A]

No, that's. I mean, what is Seymour if not a shut up in sing role? No, I take that back. Seymour. Seymour is a wonderful character. I played Amina. Yes, yes.

[B]

We had this conversation.

[A]

I'm pretty sure the first time we met, I said, how do you do? I used to play Seymour Khelborn. And you said. And you're like, where? Yeah, where? I said, oh, in the park. And you're like, which park?

[B]

The park.

[A]

The park. You know, the park where the people went.

[B]

Which park? I don't remember this.

[A]

No, no, this is. This is me fully joking.

[B]

Okay. I was like, what?

[A]

No, I actually don't remember our first conversation, which I think is indicative of how much we enjoy each other's conversations.

[B]

Yeah. Just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

[A]

Me talk? Never, never, never. I think that's a good place. We talked about the Tony Awards. We talked about Heather. We talked about its origin. We talked about its legacy. We talked about Shelly.

[B]

We talked about so many things.

[A]

We did. Do you want to. The whole reason why they end up doing the British Museum thing is because when they're in the tomb, Rane's basically like, if it takes me a hundred lifetimes, I'll find you again.

[B]

Ah, sure.

[A]

And so the actress playing Rad at Maze and Aida are in the museum many years later and see each other. And it's one of those, huh? Who are you? And just having that connection which you talked about with past lives.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Greta Lee being like, maybe, you know, in one of our past lives, we actually were together, and that's why we have this bond that we can't describe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What a good movie.

[A]

Did you ever see the movie Time Machine with Guy Pearce?

[B]

No.

[A]

Fantastic. Most didn't. I saw it at a birthday party many, many years ago when I was. When I was a wee child. I remember seeing Samantha. Mumba was in it. That's not her. She did something else. But the whole reason why he makes the time machine is that his fiance gets killed in the park or something. And so he builds a time machine to go back in time and save her. And each time he keeps going back, she keeps dying, but in a different way. And he doesn't know what to do. And so he realizes, well, I. Like, I can't change the past, but I can go further enough in the future that we meet again. And I can. And I. And that timeline, she can survive. And it was. I remember not understanding that at the time, but now, because of Aida and past lives, I'm like, I think I get it. I mean, end scene, end scene. I mean, it's a lot of God talk. For me, but, you know, a lot of reincarnation, but it's something. Will, this has been delightful.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Thank you for having me. Is there any final word on Aida you want to leave listeners with?

[B]

Just listen to that original Broadway cast recording over and over and over again. It's so good. It's so good. It's also, like, one of the finer, like, one of the finest recorded cast recordings ever. It's just so good.

[A]

It is quite a good cast recording. I remember when I interviewed Paul Bougue on the POD and we talked about it, he said, you know, it was just a very fun score for him to work on. And he, again, talking about choices, like, he would just sort of throw things out into, like, Elton John's credit. Elton John would be like, yeah, sure, like, strong as Suit, as I said, was a very different song. It was sort of like the bop that it is. And then Paul Bulgate was like, well, we can't just start at an 11, Elton. Like, we gotta begin somewhere.

[B]

Build to it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so he was like, what about, you know, Fever? Like, we go through that sort of vibe and have her be sultry and low. And Elton John was like, yeah, sure, fine. Yeah, yeah. And Sherry Nescott's like, totally with a British accent. Yeah, sure, whatever. And Sher Renee Scott said, yeah, I'll work my way up to that. Yeah, totally fine. I say, if you're on the fence about whether you want to look into Aida, do start with the cast recording. I think there's a lot of music.

[B]

Don't watch the bootleg.

[A]

Don't watch. Well, the bootleg. Bootlegs are hard to translate anyway. But, yeah, don't read the script. Supposedly they're working on it anyway. And it had a million writers, so that tells you something. But, yeah, look at some photos, listen to the cast recording. It's fun. It's a fun time. Will, where can the listeners find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

You mean like on social media?

[A]

No.

[B]

Or do you mean like in life and social media? Yeah, and social media. Well, it might. What?

[A]

No, don't tell them your address. But yeah, like, you're online if you want them to find you online. Like, if you want a follower, if you want someone to reach out for, like, a lesson or whatever.

[B]

Oh, yeah, sure. I have a website. You can, like, reach out there or like, find me on Instagram. I think I really only have Instagram. I'm terrible at social media and self promotion. Or come see the Heart of rock and roll on Broadway and like, come say hello in the pit.

[A]

Yeah, Lord knows I will. Yeah. Yeah. That Will's gonna know that I'm there, cuz I'm just gonna shout from high above. Hey, bitch. Hey.

[B]

No, it's gonna be a good time. We're very, very excited.

[A]

Yeah. Should be a lot of fun. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only. Attcoplek. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice five star rating or little review. I've read two reviews that we've gotten since the interim, but I love more. You guys are really good at writing them reviews, so write us some more. Will we close out every episode with a Broadway diva? I put her in post, but you know she'll play us out. Who would you like to sing us out today?

[B]

Well, Heather.

[A]

Heather.

[B]

Why wouldn't we use Heather after we just talked about her for however long this has been?

[A]

I'm not familiar. No, we absolutely can use Heather. I don't know, maybe you're like, I want Deborah Cox. I don't. I want Taylor Dane.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

Let's use a Heather Headley moment, please. The queen.

[A]

Absolute queen. You know what? I think what we'll do is we'll close out with Heather on this show because I always. I start every episode with the opening song from every show. And Heather famously is not in the opening song.

[B]

Not in the opening.

[A]

Yeah. So we'll close out either with Dance of the Robe or Easy as Life or Gods love Nubia.

[B]

Gods love Nubia.

[A]

Okay. She said that just to spite you. I'm actually not going to do any of that. And I'm going to play her recording of my house for Matilda, which she does do beautifully.

[B]

I'm sure everything she does is perfect.

[A]

Oh, her memory is incredible where she's surrounded by all those mirrors. I love it.

[B]

I'm the witch.

[A]

I'm the witch.

[B]

That's how you should end it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Spoken by two people who did see her at Encores.

[B]

Probably the same night.

[A]

Probably. I don't know. We've seen a lot of stuff at the same time. Okay, we're gonna close it with Heather. Something from the show. Join us next week for God knows what. This whole thing has been. Been a journey. And that's it for now. We'll see you guys next week.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Bye. Take it away, Heather.