BACKSTAGE PASS: Premiering Marcel on the Train w/ Jill Rafson

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: BACKSTAGE PASS – Premiering Marcel on the Train w/ Jill Rafson

Podcast Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Jill Rafson (Producing Artistic Director, Classic Stage Company)
Date: March 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown’s “Backstage Pass” features Matt Koplik in conversation with Jill Rafson, the Producing Artistic Director at Classic Stage Company (CSC). Focusing on the world premiere of Marcel on the Train—a new play about Marcel Marceau’s heroic activities during WWII—Matt and Jill dig deep into the evolving definition of theatrical “classics,” what makes a piece right for CSC, the interplay between new work and canon, and the nuts-and-bolts of creative producing Off-Broadway. Along the way, Jill shares her ethos on dramaturgy, reading reviews, and shaping American theater’s future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jill Rafson’s Role & Career Path

• The Many Hats of an Artistic Director
  • Jill describes her responsibilities as "a Jack or a Jill of all trades" (02:18), ranging from programming and vision-setting to budgeting, fundraising, artist relations, marketing, and educational outreach.
  • "There is no typical day," she emphasizes, citing the constant juggling between creative and administrative duties.
  • Her literary/dramaturgical background brings a new-play-development focus to the traditionally classics-driven CSC.

CSC’s Mission & Expanding the Canon

• Reimagining the Classics (05:18)
  • CSC’s mission is “to reimagine the classics for today’s audiences.”
  • Jill talks about expanding the definition of “classic” over CSC’s fifty-year history—from Greeks and Shakespeare, to Chekhov, to eventually musicals and neglected American works.
  • Notable quote:

    "The classics are not a closed set... The canon is not just done for all time." (06:30)

  • This philosophy informs programming: reviving '90s plays, blacklisted playwrights like Alice Childress, and making room for new works destined to become future classics.

Marcel on the Train—Why CSC?

• Bridging New & Classic (08:24)
  • Marcel on the Train exemplifies CSC’s approach:
    • While a new play, it's about a “classic figure” (Marcel Marceau) and invites contemporary audiences to see unknown chapters of history.
  • Season Themes: This year, Jill focused not on broadening, but “going deeper”—presenting lesser-known works by “canon” writers and staging a “lost” Thornton Wilder play.
• How the Project Came Together (10:32)
  • A producer friend introduced Jill to the creative team (Max, Mitch, and already-in-dialogue Ethan Slater).
  • Jill highlights her enthusiasm for providing platforms for artists expanding their skillsets (e.g., Lachanze’s directing debut).
  • “To be able to do that with someone like Ethan, who already had this deep affection for CSC...it just all sort of made sense.” (11:57)
  • Marshall Palett is praised for his creative use of CSC’s challenging thrust space.

From Script to Stage: New Works at CSC

• Literary Management & Artistic Vision (13:27)
  • Jill reflects on her Roundabout years, launching programs for playwrights and directors ("Space Jam," Roundabout Underground) and balancing mission and artist development.
  • Notable quote:

    “It's not just, do I like this play... it's, is this right for the theater that I am representing?” (18:10)

• How Jill Evaluates Scripts (18:10)
  • Deep reading knowledge (including classical references) is critical.
  • Gut instinct matters, but so does considering CSC's mission and the “feel” of a show in its unique space.
  • “If they think it should be on some other stage, then I’m doing it wrong... This isn’t just about me producing plays I like.” (19:22)
  • She actively pushes herself to consider new genres and theatrical forms, to avoid “mission drift.”

Feedback, Reviews, and Criticism

• Reading Reviews & Responding to Critique (22:32)
  • Jill reads reviews for practical reasons, mainly marketing and preparing artists for shifting audience expectations.
  • She distinguishes between criticism that “gets on the ride” (is constructive) and critics whose taste simply doesn’t align.
  • Notable quote:

    "Did they even want to get on the ride or did they board a train, so to speak, that isn’t the one we were driving?" (24:21)

  • She notes the evolving landscape—more diverse voices, yet less space for professional critics—and thinks carefully about what feedback is useful to her process.

Development Process for Marcel on the Train

• The Journey from Greenlight to Opening (27:05)
  • Two Prongs: Artistic development (workshop feedback, text refinement) and business (partnerships, deals, scheduling).
  • Early workshops, designer involvement, and pre-rehearsal technical experimentation were key—especially for a show with physicality and shadow puppetry.
  • “It’s sort of an ideal trajectory, honestly, to give yourself that kind of time.” (28:30)
• Developmental Culture (29:40)
  • Having come from a development-heavy environment at Roundabout, Jill notes the risk of over-workshopping ("writing toward music stands") versus meeting each new play with the right, individualized process.
  • There's a need for robust support not just for playwrights but for directors developing new visions of classics.

Artistic Wish List and Future Programming

• Dream Authors & Titles (33:23)
  • Wendy Wasserstein (“I really, really want to make sure that her work doesn’t get left behind because the writer is not around to advocate for herself.”)
  • Emphasis on bringing more American “classics” and neglected works to the CSC stage.
• Musicals at CSC (35:27)
  • CSC is carving out a niche for “weird musicals, the forgotten musicals”—pieces not grand enough for Encores!, but worthy of revival, e.g. The Baker’s Wife, I Can Get It For You Wholesale.
  • “We can canonize in this active way.”
• Decades of Interest & Archive Diving (35:38)
  • She’s especially interested in the “interesting and strange” musicals from the ’60s and ’70s.
  • Grand Hotel example:

    "I had heard about that Michael Jeter performance for years and years as this sort of legendary thing… getting to watch that in the context of the show felt like such a privilege." (38:26–39:20)

The Present & Future of Marcel on the Train

• Selling Out and Next Steps (39:52)
  • As of airing, the show is virtually sold out, with extra performances added due to demand.
  • CSC is simultaneously absorbing feedback, planning for a possible “future life” with enhancement partners, and preparing for the next show.
  • Nonprofit theater means perpetual motion: “You are never just sitting around waiting for the next project because it’s seasons. Seasons are constantly either happening or being planned.” (41:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Evolving Canon:

  “The classics don’t end at a certain date. Right. We’re still allowed to be making new classics.” (06:15, Jill Rafson)

• On Play Selection:

  “It has to be plays that are right for CSC. I want people to know it's a CSC show when they walk in the door.” (19:15, Jill Rafson)

• On Reviews:

  “Did they even want to get on the ride, or did they board a train, so to speak, that isn’t the one we were driving?” (24:21, Jill Rafson)

• On Archival Research:

  "I just remember, like, looking at all the screens around me, and I’m like, guys, do you know what I’m getting to see?" (39:00, Jill Rafson, on watching Grand Hotel at the Lincoln Center Library)

• On Nonprofit Theater:

  “You are never just sitting around waiting for the next project because it’s seasons. Seasons are constantly either happening or being planned.” (41:10, Jill Rafson)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:18 – Introduction: Marcel on the Train & Jill Rafson’s background
• 02:18 – What is a Producing Artistic Director?
• 05:18 – CSC’s mission and the evolving definition of “classic”
• 08:24 – How Marcel on the Train fits CSC’s model
• 10:32 – How Marcel came across Jill’s desk; assembling the team
• 13:27 – Jill’s role at Roundabout; new play development approaches
• 18:10 – How Jill selects scripts and evaluates new work
• 22:32 – Reading reviews and understanding criticism
• 27:05 – Path from script selection to opening night for Marcel
• 29:40 – The culture of development and balancing new/classic
• 33:23 – Artistic wish list: authors, titles, and musicals
• 35:27 – CSC’s musical focus and programming philosophy
• 38:26 – Archival discoveries: Grand Hotel at Lincoln Center
• 39:52 – The sold-out status and future for Marcel on the Train
• 41:10 – The continuous motion of nonprofit theater

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Final Memorable Exchange

[42:27] Matt: “Who would you like to close out your episode?”
[42:32] Jill: “Into the Woods was a gateway show for me as a kid. So maybe Bernadette Peters.”
[42:49] Matt: “Take it away, Bernie.”

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Takeaways

• Jill Rafson brings a thoughtful, mission-driven yet innovative approach to running Classic Stage Company, expanding the notion of “classic” to include new and neglected works alongside repertory standards.
• Marcel on the Train is a case study in CSC’s evolving, inclusive definition of classic theater and in Jill’s collaborative, artist-focused style.
• The episode is filled with wisdom on the importance of curation, development, adaptability, and intentional programming—all delivered in a lively, precise back-and-forth between two passionate theater geeks.

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For more information:
Classic Stage Company
Subscribe to Broadway Breakdown on Substack

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown and our latest episode of Backstage Pass, giving you an insider's look at the goings on of our fabulous complex industry. Today, we are continuing with Marcel on the Train at Classic Stage Company. Written by Ethan Slater and Marshall Palette, the play tells the true story of Marcel Marceau before he became the world's most famous mime when he was a young man in Nazi occupied France, helping guide Jewish children to safety during World War II. In this episode, I am joined by Classic Stage Company's producing artistic director, Jill Rafson. Jill took the role of CSC's artistic director in 2022 after having worked with Roundabout Theatre Company as associate Artistic director as well as the Artistic director of Roundabout Underground, a program which helped foster works by newly emerging playwrights. Jill Raphson has helped develop such plays as Bad Jews, the Pulitzer Prize winning English and the Tony winning the Humans. She's also worked as a dramaturg on numerous projects and has worked with establishments like City center and the Broadway League. So, yeah, she knows of what she speaks. So let's grab our pass and head backstage to my conversation with Jill.

[A]

Now, Billy, I beg to differ with you.

[B]

How do you mean?

[A]

You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.

[B]

Jill Rassen, welcome to Broadway Breakdown.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

So you are the producing artistic director at Classic Stage Company. You've had that title since 20.

[A]

For the uncultureds out there, the unknowings

[B]

out there, what necessarily does that mean? What does that title mean? And then how does that work on a day to day basis? What's a natural day for Jill Raphson? And then sort of the overall year for a producing artistic director, sure.

[A]

It's, you know, you kind of have to be a Jack or a Jill in this case of all trades, in order to be an artistic director.

[B]

A Jack or a Jill Raphson, you

[A]

mean, There you go. Exactly. And I think that it's a job that looks different every single day. And so I have found that the thing that people understand that I do is I get to pick the shows. Right. That's the super fun part of the job. Figuring out what is the right programming for a mission driven nonprofit organization where we have an identity as an institution, we have a mission that we follow and that we owe to our audience to follow. And so Making sure that classic stage always feels like classic stage in whatever form. I want that to be because I get to shape the vision for it, which is a really exciting thing to be able to say, well, what is a classic? And how do I want to reinterpret it over my time in this organization? That's. That's a lot of the fun part on the day to day. It's the. It's everything from being a line producer to chatting with an artist about a future project, chatting with an artist about a present project, you know, being in the room during previews. There's fundraising to do, there's marketing decisions to make. There's hiring of staff, there's hiring of artists, there's working with our education program to make sure that that's all running and expanding if we want that. So it's a lot of different pieces. So it's this curatorial role where I could spend a day only looking at the budget. And that is also a version of curation. And it's such a funny thing. Cause I love that different artistic directors got into this from so many different angles. I came up from the literary path. I really came up doing new play development. And here I am at a class theater, which I think is fun. And it explains sort of how we wound up at Marcel on the Train, which I know we'll talk about. But I love that some folks have done that path. A lot of artistic directors are directors. Some folks are. Purely from a producing standpoint. I kind of like that it's a job that can suit a lot of different skill sets, and that it's a job that has forced me to really understand how every single department that makes an institutional theater function runs day to day to come together for the cohesive whole that we're putting out in front of our audience. So there is no typical day. You know, I can spend this Monday. We have a reading going up at night. So I'll be at the theater all day sitting in on that rehearsal. And while I'm sitting there, I'll be listening to the play, but I'll also be editing a grant proposal. And that's just sort of the norm. And for me, that's part of what keeps it interesting.

[B]

Amazing. Yeah. Variety is the spice of life with a place like Classic Stage Company, as you said, like, every nonprofit has their own mission statement. So for Classic Stage Company, what is the mission statement currently? Because I feel like over time, with different artistic directors, mission statements start to shift a bit as times grow and change.

[A]

Yeah. The short Version of our mission statement, I won't give you the word for word is we're here to reimagine the classics for today's audiences. And so I think that this organization, which has been around for, you know, 50 something years, started out from a place of, like, the classics meant something really, really specific. They did a lot of the Greeks, did a lot of Shakespeare, over time, got more into the European, sort of your naturalist, your Chekhov, your Ibsen, your Strindberg. And I think it was probably about a dozen or so years ago that CSC moved into doing musicals as well and acknowledging that as part of the canon, it took a really long time for this theater to do an American classic and to finally do the first Tennessee Williams for the organization. And so what we mean by a classic has evolved over time, I think, out of necessity. And one of the things that got me excited about joining this organization was the idea of getting to teach people that the classics are not a closed set. That what we thought of as a classic back when this organization was founded in the 60s is certainly not the same as what we see it as today. Because time has marched on and the classics don't end at a certain date. Right. We're still allowed to be making new classics. And I sort of love thinking of that as an activity that the canon is not just done for all time. And so, you know, one of the things I talk about a lot is some of the plays that shaped me the most were, like, plays written in the 90s. And much as it hurts my heart to admit how long ago that was, if we don't start doing revivals of those plays, then they're not gonna get canonized. And so what does it look like to continually question what the canon is and which plays belong in it? And I kind of love that CSC has this powerful spotlight of being an off Broadway institution where by putting something into our stage, we get to say, hey, it's at Classic Stage Company, it's a classic. And the forward thinking of that is really one of the privileges of getting to run this place. To say, you know, I love the work of Alice Childress. It was ignored in its own time to a large extent by the mainstream theater community because of the identity of that writer and some of the themes. She was writing about black women in America, and she was pushing boundaries. And by doing her work in a play like Wine in the Wilderness last year around this time, we really got to shine this light on her. And my biggest hope is that by putting work like that at Classic Stage, other people feel like they can do it too. And so if we can have this ripple effect that the plays that we choose to do and say, I believe this is a classic. Hey, audience, do you agree? I hope it also means a lot of other artistic directors will agree and find it easy to put plays like that on their stages.

[B]

Absolutely. So then, for something like Marcel and the Train, which is a new work, how does that come across your desk? And then where does that fit into the mission statement currently or as Classic Stage keeps evolving? The mission statement, we do have this

[A]

history doing new works, but the new books always have some tie to the classics in their own way. So, you know, Venus and Fern is one of the biggest hits that CSC ever had. And that was obviously a new play by David Ives, but it was based on a quite old text. And so I love that that's a way that CSC can be a part of the New works conversation while still trafficking in what makes us us. And so Marcel felt like such a perfect fit in that way that not only is it just a period piece, but it's about a classic figure. And my sort of theme for this season was, instead of going broader with what we think of as a classic, it was going deeper. So, you know, we did the Baker's Wife, which is a deep cut for a Stephen Schwartz fan, and that hadn't had a major New York production. So Stephen, as a writer who I think will be part of the canon, I love that we got to show something that people didn't already know very well. And then for our final show that'll follow Marcel, we're doing a lost Thornton Wilder play that has never been seen in New York, Obviously a master American playwright, and we're getting to do what is essentially a new play. It's only been done one time in a regional production, and so that's really exciting. So for Marcel, it was saying, here's this figure who you know a lot about, who is sort of part of our cultural history, and here's a story that we can go deeper with, because we're not going to tell you the part about him that you already know. You know, the guy's a mime. We all know that he ends up there, and. And he had this whole other life before that version of his Persona started. And I loved the opportunity to just really dig in and say, okay, we can do a new play about this figure. And it just sort of hits the sort of perfect Venn diagram of what I like to do for the Organization to take my affection for new play development and what we're trying to do with the classics and hit that overlaps perfectly.

[B]

So how did Marcel come across your desk?

[A]

Yeah, it's funny, I had a producer friend who said, you know, there's a producer I really, really want you to know who has the Prince fellowship and who I think is really smart and has an idea that I think might be a really interesting fit for you. So I agreed to sit down with Max Beer, and he introduced me to Mitch Morois, and they started talking about their passion for Marcel on the train. And the interest thing was that I was already in conversation with Ethan Slater because he obviously had appeared at CSC in Assassins, which was before my time with the company, but I had already started getting to know him as a writer. We did a concert of a piece that he wrote with Nick Blaymire called Edge of the World and had a great time doing that. And so I already really believed in his work as a multi hyphenate artist. And so when Max and Mitch pitched me this particular play, I was like, oh, this might be a really cool fit for us. And I have a bit of an affinity for artists spreading their wings. You know, last season we had Lachanze direct for the first time. And obviously she's very well known as a performer and she's also been producing. And I love getting the chance to use the playground of this theater to let great artists try new things. And, you know, one of the things about me leading this theater but not being a director myself is I'm not taking up slots. I'm just choosing projects and artists who I think are great in giving them that space to play. And so to be able to do that with someone like Ethan, who already had this deep affection for CSC from his experience here and really felt like our physical space would be a fantastic fit for this particular work, it just all sort of made sense. And once I got to know Marshall Palett as well, I mean, they wrote a wonderful piece together, but Marshall's also a fantastic director who anyone who sees this show will know he understands how to use the space that is CSC so beautifully. It's tricky. It's a thrust space, and some people get really hamstrung by it, but it is. He has done something so theatrical that takes advantage of everything that. That we offer. And so it just ended up being this great confluence.

[B]

Absolutely. So you from. I mean, you had a life before this, but you were a literary manager at Roundabout before you went on to Be the associate artistic director at Roundabout. First of all, associate artistic director. Can you walk me through a little bit about what that is? And then we're going to go backwards towards literary manager and tie that to your time at Classic Stage as someone who has had a history and legacy of developing new works and working with new playwrights and sort of of that. But first, associate artistic producer.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, the funny thing is, I think it's probably different at every theater in a few ways, and I think it's different depending on your artistic director. So, you know, I was really lucky. I feel like I grew up at Roundabout. I found a home there really early in my career, and the late, great Todd Haymes just kept saying yes. And so when I got there, I mean, I was an intern and part of my job, we were just starting to do new plays regularly. And so I literally was sending out letters, not emails, letters to agents saying, hi, Roundabout does new plays now. Would you like to submit any? Which, you know, by the time I left, it was like, please stop sending us all the plays. We have enough plays. So it's been quite a trajectory. You know, Todd was a businessman by training, a businessman who loved theater and was incredibly good at relationship building and long term visioning. And so I think I served him really well as somebody who could sort of take ownership of some of the artistic programs and just keep all of those trains running at the same time. So I would say that Roundabout is a place that during my time there, grew to have five operating theaters. I largely was working on the Off Broadway space for most of that time. The Roundabout Underground program was a baby of mine, where we only did plays that were giving professional New York debuts to emerging playwrights and really trying to be a launchpad for those writers. And then also programming the Laura Pels Theater with new works primarily. Sometimes we snuck in a revival, but really keeping an eye on that new work. Younger artist pipeline was a big part of my role there and over time also developing a lot of sort of service programs towards artists. So we developed some. We started listening to what the artists were saying they needed and seeing if it was something we could afford to say yes to. So we started a program called Space Jam, where it just meant that you could have free residency time where we just gathered a bunch of writers in a room and they could get work done and form community. And we would do that a few times a year. And we rented out an office for them at a WeWork and they could just go have like a private writing space for A bit, which was fantastic. We started a directing fellowship program and then we met too many good directors. So then we had to start a whole director's group to accommodate all the great people we met. I mean, it was. That all fell under my purview as an associate artistic director to make sure that we were sort of doing these great mission driven programs. I would say to Todd all the time, you're letting me do all the fun stuff because I get to spend the money. You have to spend all this time raising it and managing it. And then you. You let me go off and create these programs for the organization and it's awesome. But that was the nature of our relationship. And I think that there were other associate ads who were more involved in the day to day financial management, but that just wasn't the nature of our setup. And so knowing that I was interested in running my own ship at some point, I spent the pandemic doing some graduate courses in financial management for nonprofits. But so that I could, you know, put my Todd hat on eventually, which has come in very, very handy. But yeah, the associate ad job is. I think it really is different for every organization and partnership, and I loved the version that I got to experience.

[B]

In a lot of ways, you've been primed for this, for this moment. Yeah. So also, how long were you with Roundabout? Until. Was it until 2022?

[A]

Yeah, I was there from. I mean, gosh, I. I interned in 2004. I went away and worked at the Broadway League for a year after that. And then Todd called me and said, I have a job for you. Come back. And so I was there from 2005 until early 2022, and then I transitioned over to CSC that spring. Yeah.

[B]

So then I have you to both thank and blame for significant other is what you're telling me.

[A]

That is exactly right. I mean, you can, you can blame me for Josh Harmon entirely. We had a great time doing a lot of Josh plays at that theater. I don't know, that play also spoke to me at the moment that we were doing it in a very strong way. And it's. I don't know, I love that piece so much.

[B]

Brilliant piece. And yeah, I know it speaks.

[A]

It should.

[B]

It should speak to everybody based on wherever you are in your life and as you continue to change in your life, it'll speak to you in a different way. So with Marcel, when you're looking at a new script, what is it that helps you kind of lean towards whether you're interested in it or not? Are There factors or is it a gut feeling?

[A]

I wish I could ever pin this down, but I think that trusting your taste is just a huge part of the gig. You know, one of the things that was really important to me in my early years was just reading at volume so that I was making informed decisions. Because I think if you don't know a lot of plays, and especially if you don't actually know the classics that are all truly like the basic vocabulary that all of today's writers are building off of, sometimes knowingly and sometimes not, because it's just been absorbed into them culturally, you sort of have to know the context in which you are reading. And I also think that you, as somebody who has always worked within institutions, it's not just, do I like this play or do I think this will sell a lot of tickets? It's is this right for the theater that I am representing? And so I love that I get to read with mission in mind, because there are some new plays that I absolutely love and would be delightful to see in a thrust space that make truly no sense to do at a place like csc because it's just not our mission. And I think that mission drift is a real danger for organizations, especially these days, when the sort of vagaries of the finances, especially post Covid, mean you have to be more reliant on things like star names or enhancement partners. And there's nothing wrong with that. I've certainly said yes to both, but I think they can get tricky if it forces you to say yes to work that doesn't make sense for your organization. And the thing that I'm always keeping an eye out for is I want people to know it's a CSC show when they walk in the door. It should feel like it's meant to be with us. And if they think it should be on some other stage, then I'm doing it wrong. This isn't just about me producing plays that I like. This has to be plays that are right for csc. So I certainly know that in my own taste, I have a soft spot for certain genres. I mean, we're doing a reading series on mysteries and thrillers this year because I think they're great. And I don't know why New York theaters don't do them as much as the regionals do. So I thought I'd see what New York audiences, how New York audiences responded to those by doing a few of them on our stage this season. And so far it's been really positive. I also love a DYSTOPIAN play. And I love plays that are really just deeply theatrical plays that feel like they don't belong in any other medium. That's always exciting to me. And I know I'm a sucker for a solid narrative. So I also like to push myself sometimes to make sure I'm considering the things that are a little more absurdist, that are really playing with form more, because it doesn't come to me as naturally personally. And so I like to really force myself to take a closer look at that kind of work to make sure I'm giving it all consideration. But I think that so much is gut and so much is artist relationships and trusting that you can look at a piece that is just not finished and know whether it can get to the place that it wants to be. And, you know, one of the basic tenets I always think of as a dramaturg is it's not about me saying, I'm gonna make this play better. It's about saying, how do we make this the best possible version of a play that this writer wants it to be? Because it's not about what I want it to be. If it's not about vision, you're going to get away from those initial impulses and you're going to find a muddy mess at the end.

[B]

If people aren't watching this. That was me giving a silent clap to Jill. No, I talk about this all the time, and everyone will hear this in a later episode. With our catch up with Mitch and Max, that's always been how I feel people should go about a project, or even when they're. And we'll tie this now into Marcel again and opening night. But whenever I do reviews on this podcast, my first aim is what is it that the team is trying to make do? I think you're successful at that. Third question is, did I like it? For me, that's the third one. Because I have read reviews from people that are really well written. Pans just very bitchy. And I'm like, you have a way with words, ma' am or sir. But you absolutely did not know what the show was trying to be. And thus I have to disregard everything you just wrote. Do you read reviews, Jill?

[A]

I do. It's sort of a professional necessity, which I honestly, I encourage a lot of the artists we work with to read at their own peril because whether it's great or terrible, it just gets in your brain in a way. And so. But I have to for marketing purposes, and that's fine. I think it's a useful Thing to sort of know what's out there and to make sure you know what the actors are walking into. Because if you've had a preview period that, you know, we've experienced this with lesser known titles or plays that just weren't star driven and so we weren't like selling tickets like crazy during that preview period before people knew what the show was really about. You know, sometimes they've been used to one kind of audience and. And you need to know, hey, the audience is going to look different on the other side now they've been told you're a hit. And so. So it's scare the artist. You need to sort of help prepare them. And of course it can go the other way as well. And making sure that they don't feel like the air has been sucked out of the room and that we're doing everything we can to make sure there's a great responsive audience in the space every night. And also to use the reviews to tell us who is our audience. Right. Like, are we promoting this to the right people and speaking about it in the right ways? What are the things people responded to that we may or may not have seen coming and leaning into that in our strategies about who we're trying to get in front of and how we are framing the piece in front of them.

[B]

Absolutely. Would you. So this is a question I've been asking everyone then as well. So when reading reviews, if you were to get, let's say like a critical review, how would you parse out between. This really doesn't apply to what I want to do or. That's actually a good point. Let me hold onto that for future reference.

[A]

Yes. I mean, a lot of it has to do with we've been reading a lot of these reviewers for a long time and trying to get a sense of where were we expecting them to like this? Because you do learn their taste in the same way that you learn your own. And. And to me, it goes back to what you were saying earlier. It's did they even want to get on the ride or did they board a train, so to speak, that isn't the one we were driving. You know, if they have gotten on board and they have thoughtful responses that I find so helpful and I love when reviewers are actually constructive. I think that can be really great where they see the thing you were trying to do and help, you know, if you succeeded in hitting the things you were trying to hit. The things I don't find as helpful are when they're like, yeah, no, this just wasn't for me. And then they pontificate on why I can't make it be for them. And we all have different tastes, and that's fine. Like, I know, you know, every now and then I'll love one, but I'm not a farce person. It's just not my brand of humor. And so I would never go out of my way to try to share my opinion on one because it's not going to be helpful to anyone. I'm like, yeah, people getting hit in the face with a door, it doesn't do anything for me. So you don't need to hear me tell you whether it was a well executed face to door. Like, yeah. So you have to take it all with a grain of salt. And I think, I think it's valid. I think it's also. We're in such a. An odd moment for theater criticism of what? Who are the voices that are out there? There are both more voices. I think we're finally getting a greater diversity of voices. Not as wide as it should be, but we're at least on a path. But we also are getting less critical response from what used to be the mainstream publications. They're just not giving as much space as they used to to critical voices who would review at huge volume. And so what does it mean to get criticism from someone who is a professional critic versus coming from more of a place of fandom? Both are valuable, but valuable in really different ways. So I've certainly seen that evolve over the course of my career, and it's making me change how I take in the feedback that we get following an opening.

[B]

So with something like Marcel, then to pivot from criticism to now, going back a few months, you. Yeah. You have this relationship with Ethan. You've met Max and Mitch, you know Marshall. So you read the piece and you say that you want to do it. Sort of. What does the next steps look like between Classic Stage Company and the creative team going forward? From, yes, you want to do this, to announcing it, to actually it going up on stage.

[A]

Yeah. Well, with a piece like this where you're talking to enhancement partners working with a nonprofit, it immediately has a sort of two pronged trajectory. So on the one side, sitting down with the artists and talking about the piece itself, my immediate response to it, so that I can kind of give them fresh eyes. Because we started our conversations before they did their workshop at Williamstown, and then I was able to watch an archival of that workshop. And like, we were able to talk about, okay, what have we learned? From that, what are the things you want to work on in the pieces itself? And then at the same time, Mitch and Max and I were talking about numbers and figuring out, what is this partnership going to look like, what is the timing that's right for this piece? What is our deal going to look like? And so those things were happening at the same time. And once we were all ready to reach an agreement on that, we kind of loop them into the larger CSC season announcement timeline and make sure that everybody feels good about getting that out into the world, which I guess was around. Gosh, when did we announce last year? I'm gonna say June of 2025, that we announced the project. And by then, we also knew already that we had a limited rehearsal time just based on artists schedules. And so we wanted to make sure we went in to our official rehearsal period as primed as possible. And so we scheduled a workshop in the fall, and we knew that would be a big time for us to get to work on not only the text, but also making sure that we were starting to home in on who our final cast was going to be. And we'd even gotten some of our designers on board and were able to play with some of the technical elements. You know, the show involves, like, shadow puppetry. Great, let's play with the lights, which you don't always get to do in advance, and, like, be in the space of CSC itself ahead of the game, so that we could see what's going to work, what's not going to work. So we weren't figuring that out. In tech, when you don't have as much time to. To play and to try, I mean, it's sort of an ideal trajectory, honestly, to give yourself that kind of time. And it doesn't always work, but for a new play, a world premiere in particular, it's so valuable to get those opportunities. And I was really glad that was how we tracked this out. Yeah.

[B]

Would you say that that's a contingency that you have to think about for a new play, as opposed to a classic work of being able to have a little bit extra time to just sort of map it out in this space so see it up on its feet, as opposed to, like, say, doing A Night of the Iguana, which at the very least, you know, works on its feet, if not necessarily the production you're about to do? Is that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's totally fair. I mean, I think that the sort of developmental culture that I came out of at Roundabout was very Much about making sure that each piece is given the right amount of time so that you were setting it up for success, particularly when it came to new work. And in some ways, you know, over my. I mean, I was at Roundabout for 17 years growing this New Works program. And I do think that in some ways during that time we almost overcorrected on the preparation. I think that there were moments or years that the culture of readings and workshops became oppressive for writers. And I started to feel like writers were actually writing towards music stands. And some of the best lines in the play would be in the stage directions because they knew it would be read out loud at a reading. And I was like, that's not good. That's taking away from theatricality. And I think we've started to get out of that phase and into a place of just meeting each play where it is. Because there is no template for how to develop a new play. And I feel like I've done 80 different versions of getting a play from the first draft that I fell in love with to production. And so Marcel ended up on the path that was right for Marcel and that I wouldn't necessarily prescribe to. Every play like, this is a really physical piece. It needed to be in physical space in a way that not every play that we're gonna talk about does. And you just have to be sort of prepared budgetarily and in terms of planning your timeline to commit the resources that make sense to a play. But it's one of the things I'm really proud of bringing to csc, that we can have a culture of development here and not. I think, again, this is in large part because I'm not a director. You know, I'm sure that John Doyle had a vision for his productions and he was really confident in what he was gonna do. He didn't need a developmental phase. He was sure of his vision for that particular piece and could put it up on stage efficiently and to a really satisfying aesthetic place. There are also some revivals that need more of that time, you know, where it's a real reimagining. And I have a sort of like long term bee in my bonnet about the way that we do or do not invest in directors. Because the idea that a director can show up on the first day of rehearsal for a new staging of a classic play and to claim that they haven't done a huge amount of developmental work along the way is a bit silly. Right? They're not just putting it on its feet. That's not what we do. So, I don't know, someday I want to get some funding to do commissions for directors, because we've recognized that playwrights can only thrive when they are supported in their process. And I would love to see that translate to directors, because otherwise we're just going to be shortchanging ourselves, I think, from getting really interesting emerging talents to take a chance on spending their time developing an exciting new take on a classic play. And so I'm sure there are classics I will do that, want more developmental opportunities and. And some we've already done in that way, and others are going to be pretty ready to go. But you have to be able to meet the piece where it is.

[B]

Absolutely. I also don't know why Night of the Iguana was the first one to pop in my head such a random play to be like, I don't know, this one.

[A]

It's a tricky one.

[B]

Yeah, it's a tricky Williams that has worked, but also has easily not worked. I don't know why that was the one I picked, but it's the one I picked. So for Classic Stage, I mean, I guess just doesn't necessarily have to be a spoiler, but, like, do you have titles in your head going forward that you would love to do at some point down the line? Not necessarily next season, but, you know, in the upcoming seasons?

[A]

Oh, yeah, I have. I have titles, I have just authors, I have directors. They're sort of on my dream list. So I don't want to give too much away, but I've said publicly before that Wendy Walserstein remains on my wish list, and I relate to her as a Jewish woman, and I really, really want to make sure that her work doesn't get left behind because the writer is not around to advocate for herself. So that's something that's on my mind. I think one of the things I've brought to CSC is my interest in American classics, and so I can definitely see us spending some time there. CSC has a huge history with Shakespeare, and for me, we'll always go back to Shakespeare every now and then, but. But a lot of theaters do Shakespeare, and a lot of them do it really, really well. And so I get excited about the Shakespeare that gets brought to me that has a real vision and a real. This is why it can only be done at csc. Those are really fantastic moments where you're like, oh, yeah, for our space, for our audience, we are the ones to do this. So that's always fun. And then musicals, I'm really enjoying the niche. We have found that is sort of the weird musicals, the forgotten musicals. I mean, I can get it for you wholesale. Was a huge passion project for me. I loved doing the Baker's Wife, doing these pieces that we can again canonize in this active way that I was talking about. I love that. I love that, you know, we. I remember saying this to Julia Lester. You know, I would love that all these girls in high school don't just dream about playing, you know, Annie or, you know, getting to be the Baker's Wife and into the woods, but that they dream of getting to be Ms. Marmelstein. Right. Like, how do we make that piece part of the regular repertory? That's really fun. And I think there are a lot of musicals that aren't getting done and that aren't really grand enough for the encores treatment. That we can really serve the community by bringing them back to life. That's an exciting project for me.

[B]

So you don't have to. To spoil titles. But if we're talking musicals, are there particular decades that you look at and you go, this is like a nice sweet spot that we can pull from?

[A]

I mean, honestly, I'm inconsistent about it because I think that I. There are a lot of musicals from the 60s and 70s that I find really interesting and strange and. And that I want to spend more time exploring. And that in the case of so many musicals, it's like, wow, this score is great. And, oh, the book. So I'm in my spare time. That's the deep dive of figuring out what are the pieces I can look at. You know, that's why we did this great benefit reading of the Rink this fall, because that is just a title that I was like, well, I know so many of these songs and nobody knows the plot. I mean, the Baker's Wife was really similar. People knew Meadowlark, but they didn't know the show. And so how do we sort of rescue shows like that? I mean, obviously everyone knows candor and ebb in our community, but how do you sort of make anew a piece that everybody just associates with the Cheetah and Liza of it all and make it fresh. And so it was cool to experiment with that in our space. Absolutely. That's an era that I find really interesting and allows me to dig into the lesser known titles from some of our greats. That's really fun. But then again, you know, there's. I remember going on a binge of just research way back where I was like, good God. Everything was either written, directed or both by George Abbot. And just looking at the body of work of a. Of a great artist like that from the past, and there. There's so many paths we could go down because there are just. There are a lot of really great musicals out there that. That we need to pay attention to.

[B]

I agree. I agree. I mean, the thing with the rink is, like, I don't think most Kanderneb fans realize that Colored Lights is from the rink. They know the song. But then you're like, yeah, it's. It's so many great songs that. That we love. And you. You go back and you're like, oh, it's from that musical. Maybe I should look into that musical.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. No, listen, I am all for that mission statement, you know, Jill, you are doing the Lord's work with that, so keep focus on that, please. From the bottom of my heart, it's fun.

[A]

I mean, honestly, I have the best time. I have this list of just the musicals that I have always heard about but never had an excuse to read, and it's the most fun. I mean, and this is. Again, this is the fun part of the artistic director job, right? Like, kind of going, oh, gosh, I've always heard about this piece, but now I'm gonna go to the library at Lincoln center, and I'm gonna go watch the archival and see if it makes sense for us. Because everybody knows two songs from it, and they can't tell me anything else. Except Richie Rich, who can tell me anything about any musical from the 70s, which is really fun.

[B]

Yeah, that's what he's there for. Have you. This is where I'm gonna get a little tangenty and nerdy. What, was there a specific show or. There have been a few shows when you went to the library where you're like, I can't believe I'm getting to watch this show right now. I've always wanted to know what it was like.

[A]

Yeah, this was years ago. I'll give you some inside scoop from Roundabout, because it's probably no longer relevant. But back in the day, I went and watched Grand Hotel because I was really interested in it for Roundabout, and I just didn't know the piece. And I honestly can't remember if we couldn't get the rights or whatever reason. Nothing happened there. But it was before the encores version, and I had heard about that Michael Jeter performance for years and years as this sort of legendary thing, and I remembered seeing him perform on the Tonys, and just getting to watch that in the context of the show felt like such a Privilege. And I just remember, like, looking at all the screens around me, and I'm like, guys, do you know what I'm getting to see? I think getting to be. It's part of what I love about being in this kind of role. I have such an appreciation for theater history and the privilege of getting to program these stages and contribute to that history. Like, how lucky. How lucky to get to do that and to know that works that I helped premiere are gonna be taught and revived, and it'll make me feel ancient, but it's so great. That's exciting stuff to me.

[B]

Yeah. But look at the hat you made, you know?

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's a good hat.

[B]

Yeah. You made a hat. That's.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I think that's a perfect place to end this off. Where are you at with Marcel on the train?

[A]

Yeah, we're at a really interesting juncture because we. You can't get a ticket. Um, I mean, check within 48 hours of each performance. Cause sometimes seats get released, but we're basically sold out for the entire run. Um, on the day that you and I are talking, we're about to announce we're adding one more matinee because it was the most we could add to the schedule to get a few more folks in. So we're just trying to meet demand, which is a really wonderful place to be. But I think that we're also taking in the feedback that we got over the last week post opening and learning from it. Because, I mean, when you work with enhancement partners in particular, there's always talk of future life. And so we have this great opportunity to learn and observe and see what we can use in next steps. And largely, that will be out of the hands of csc. We're partners in this, and we want only the best for this show. But it is always such a funny thing to open the show and say, wow, we have nothing more to sell, so we just need to make this a great experience for the artists while they're in our space. That's really important to me that they leave wanting to work here again and keep paying attention to that while going, all right, we gotta start the Emporium next, and that starts rehearsal at the end of the month. So it's what I love about nonprofit theater. You're always in transition. You are never just sitting around waiting for the next project because it's seasons. Seasons are constantly either happening or being planned. And that always having to sort of keep your foot on the gas is a huge part of the appeal for me.

[B]

Absolutely. And now I will say there's no better way to end it than right here. Jill Rothki, thank you so much for joining us on Broadway Breakdown. I normally ask people, is there a way to where you want people to find you if you want them to find you? But I don't know if you're on social media, I don't know if it's okay to give out your email. Let's just say look into Classic Stage Company. People can support you there. And, I mean, are you speaking publicly anywhere, at any places, events, anything like that?

[A]

Gosh, I feel like I'm just talking at my own theater constantly. Honestly, you can find me in the lobby most days. And I love meeting folks and hearing their thoughts on what we're up to. And, yeah, I just look forward to getting to know your listeners and hoping they'll say hello.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure they will. They're very vocal. Well, that'll be it for now, Jill. We close out every episode, even these bonus episodes, with a nice little Broadway diva. But who would you like to close out your episode?

[A]

Oh, my gosh, that is a great question. Into the woods was a gateway show for me as a kid. So maybe Bernadette Peters.

[B]

Bernadette Peters. Okay. Specifically for into the woods or any Bernadette Peters.

[A]

I mean, listen, I'm partial to children will listen, but I think that you could go with something more upbeat if you like. Yeah, that's.

[B]

I could see that. Yeah. Not tell me on a Sunday that's not upbeat. Okay, so Bernadette Peters, then. Take it away, Bernie. Bye. All right, that's going to do it. For this episode of Backstage Pass, I want to thank Jill wrote Rafson for her knowledge. I want to thank you all for your ears. And I want to thank Fred for getting me this backstage pass today. Thanks, Fred. You're a real one. Tune in next episode because I got a backstage pass from another dear friend, Beatrice. Fun gal, always a good time. Beatrice got us a pass to talk to the main creatives behind Marcel on the train.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

That is right. The two writers who also are doing double duty. The director, Marshall Palin, and the star, even Slater. So stay tuned for all of that deliciousness next. Thank you, guys.

[A]

Enough of being bullied and bossed.

[B]

Ta ta.

[A]

I beat a Zane and get lost. I walk behind him like a meek little lamb and had my fill of his not giving a.