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Broadway Breakdown
BONUS! Interview w/ SPAMALOT/THE GREAT GATSBY Lighting Designer: Cory Pattak
01:29:26
A chat with a future Tony nominee
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- [00:00]
A
Thank you very much.
- [00:01]
B
That's all. But we have a great dramatic finish. Oh, I'm sure you do, but Mr. Grant, hit it. Broadway. Broadway. We've missed it. So we're leaving soon and taking June to star her in a show. Bright lies, white light, rhythm and romance the train is nice so while we wait we're gonn do a little dance.
- [00:36]
A
Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we got a nice special bonus episode for you today. Because it is Tony season, we're just having, like, random special episodes popping up left and right, so. You're welcome. Guys, I have a very special guest today. He is making his Broadway debut this season with not one, but two Broadway shows. That's what we call booked and blessed. Please welcome lighting designer Corey Paddock. Hi, Corey. Hey, everyone.
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B
Good to be here.
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A
So, Corey, as I mentioned, you are indeed making your Broadway debut with two musicals this season, Spamalot and the Great Gatsby.
- [01:21]
B
Yeah.
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A
So that's impressive. First of all, congrats.
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B
Thank you. I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but I actually did go back and, like, look and look at a lot of lighting designers and see when they made debuts how many people did two musicals in one season. And it's a pretty small list, actually. Most people either do a play first or they do, like, one show. So, like, two musicals in a season. Yeah. I'm proud of that. I can. I can. I could put my feather in that cap. That's.
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A
Absolutely. And on top of that, you also had Tick Tick boom at Kennedy center this year. So, I mean, it's not like you were sort of lazing about in between shows. You were just constantly working.
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B
Yeah. And the fun thing is that Wonderful World is coming in in the fall, which people keep saying, like, oh, three in one season. Which is technically not true because Wonderful World will be next season. But it's nice. It was nice that it was announced because I could sort of, like, pile it all on and just pretend like it's a. A total windfall this year. Which. Which it has been.
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A
Yeah. Like, you're the Michael Greif of lighting designers.
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B
Yeah. If I were doing them all at the same time, maybe I felt like that this. This fall because we did Wonderful World, Spamalot, and Gatsby. All the out of towns, like, like right on top of each other. And it was a little crazy. And I'm glad now they were spaced out a bit for Broadway.
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A
Totally. So how did you get into lighting design? What was sort of the impetus for that?
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B
I started out as an actor, as I think a lot of us did at some point. I was super into theater as a kid. My mom would take me to see theater. I guess she was really into it and sort of exposed me to it really early on. And I was. I fell in love with it. And so I thought I wanted to be an actor. That's what I love doing. I did that all through school and high school and would do shows at school and at theaters in Pittsburgh, which is where I grew up. And I was like, fairly certain that being an actor is what I wanted to do. And then in high school I sort of like changed my mind and got wise to it a little bit. And also I had a lot of friends who were older than me that I would see sort of go on and try to do it. And it became clear how hard it was to make a living being an actor. And I think I'm nothing if not pragmatic. And I was like, huh, this might not be the best path. Also, I was like, self aware enough to know that I was like, I was fine, but I wasn't great. Like, I knew it. I knew I was like, not great. I was too short to be leading man. Like, I couldn't. I didn't have the voice. Like I was never gonna happen. And sort of at the same time, I was getting more into design. You know, when you're standing on stage as an actor and the. And they're holding and they're lighting, you know, I would find myself sort of looking around and like looking at what lights they were turning on and looking at the scenery. And I became really sort of obsessed with design. And then, you know, around that time in high school, when you start deciding what you're going to, you know, study in college, I decided to switch gears and actually go for design, which was funny because I had no real experience doing it before college, but I knew that I wanted to do it and I felt like I had a knack for it. And so, yeah, so for college then I went and did some design, studied design, though I still did some acting and writing and directing and all sorts of those fun things in college. But then that was just sort of for fun. And then, and then I got out and have sort of only focused on. On design.
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A
Since then, are there any lighting designs in your memory that have really, like, impacted you that you think about from time to time?
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B
Yeah, I mean, there's a ton of them. You know, I never saw a Broadway show until I was out of high school, that my high school graduation present was to come to New York and see some Broadway shows, which I had never. I'd never been to New York before. So my exposure to theater, aside from, like, local productions, were tours. The Benedem center in Pittsburgh is a big roadhouse that gets a lot of sort of like first run nationals. And so for, you know, like my entire childhood, really, or at least my teenage years, I pretty much saw every tour that came through. And that I think really was the thing that kind of, you know, cemented this. So I think about those tours, you know, one of the big ones, funny enough, was the Footloose tour, which I saw and, and which, you know, if you go back and watch old Footloose clips online, which you can. It's kind of wild. It's like the most 90s thing I've ever seen. The costumes, the set, the light. It's like. It's wildly 90s, but it had a really great lighting design by Ken Billington. And I remember being blown away by that. That was one of them. There was a production of Tommy that I saw as a teenager that, as I think back on it. Excuse me, as I think back on. Feels like it was a carbon copy of the Broadway production, which I'm sure was not particularly legal. But remembering that production and then remembering what the Broadway production looked like, they. They seem one and the same to me. And the lighting was pretty spectacular for that Tommy. And I remember that really cementing how much I was into lighting design. And then when I, When I made that trip to New York and finally saw to. Finally saw some Broadway shows, I saw the Full Monty and Aida, the original productions, and they were both wonderful. But Natasha Katz's work on Aida was kind of like nothing I'd ever seen before at the Palace Theater. It was just. It was spectac spectacular and those. And like that. That was, you know, summer after I graduated from college or high school, I was ready to go to college in the fall for that. And seeing Aida on Broadway, I was just like, oh, yeah, this is what I want to do someday. This is. This is incredible. So those were some of the. Some of the shows.
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A
Yeah, I. I recall that. Aida lighting. We actually did an episode about Aida not too long ago for this podcast and we talked about the design of that show and how it really helped sort of elevate the whole production because it was just so stylish and fashionable almost. And, yeah, Natasha Katz is great. I remember. So I saw the Follies that Kennedy center produced that then moved to Broadway. And it sounds so, like, noobish of me, but I had not seen a lightning design until then in my memory of where. Because Follies, you know, takes place in an abandoned theater, and it's all very shadowy and there are ghosts. I hadn't seen a lightning design where, like, a character would sort of come on from an area of the stage, almost sort of in semi darkness, but with a very faded spotlight on them that got brighter the closer they got to center stage. And I thought that was such a very clever and theatrical way of lighting people. And then, of course, since then I'd seen it, I started seeing it a lot more. But it's, you know, like my mom calls it, it's like when you buy a car of a certain color, you start seeing that color everywhere. So that was just. That's just my little story about Natasha. But. So for Spamalot and Gatsby, Spamalot kind of happened last minute. It wasn't. It wasn't supposed to be Spamalot at Kennedy center, was supposed to be a different show, and then it kind of came to Broadway very last minute. So were you due to work on the other show that got canceled before Spamalot?
- [08:25]
B
Yeah, so I have a pretty sweet gig down there. Have just sort of become the resident light designer for the Broadway Center Stage series, which I just sort of fell into kind of doing all the shows. So, yeah, I of. It's sort of a standing gig now where I. I do all those shows, unless for some reason I'm not available or they don't want me, or who knows? So, yeah, it was supposed to be Kiss of the Spider Woman, and for all sorts of reasons which I won't get into, that ended up changing to Spamalot at the last minute, which is wild, because Spamalot is a huge show, and these things we put up very quickly. The cast rehearses for two weeks. We tech them for two days. They run for 10 performances. They're really. They're really sort of fast and dirty, you know, somewhat similar to the Encores model. And Spamalot is a huge show with a ton of scenery and props and costumes that. And so when it switched to Spamalot, we were like, oh, my God, this is like a. This is A huge undertaking. So. But we pulled it off for dc and it was very well received. And so that was sort of. That there had been shows in the past where we had heard some rumblings of maybe coming to Broadway. The Guys and Dolls we did was very well received, and there had been some rumblings of that maybe coming in, you know, other. Other previous shows. And so I try not to put too much stock in all that stuff until it's real. And so, you know, we had heard, oh, yeah, maybe, you know, maybe spam will come in, and was like, okay, well, we'll see what happens. And then that was in May. And then sometime over the summer, you know, in, like, July, you know, we started to catch wind that, like, this might actually be happening and that maybe the St. James was going to be opening up, you know, maybe sooner than people had thought. And then, yeah, we found out sort of, God, like, July, August, ish, that we were going to the St. James. And by then, you know, we were teching. What was it, in October. So that was really fast because, you know, Broadway shows typically take months to kind of lay out and get all the. All the pieces in order. So, yeah, so that was a really fast thing. Some of us had, like. I had other jobs I had to withdraw from. There was. I had a lot of panic because Greg Gatsby was already happening at Paper Mill and Wonderful World was happening in New Orleans, and the Spamalot dates were. Were not necessarily solid yet, but. And there were a bunch of us that were involved in multiple productions. So, like, Paul DePoox and I did both Gatsby and Spamalot. James Monroe Iglehart was starring in Wonderful World and Spamalot. Kai Harada was one of the sound designers on Spamalot and also doing Wonderful World. So there were a lot of us that sort of had these potential conflicts, and we were just waiting to see how it all was gonna shake out. And miraculously, it somehow all came together. I essentially went from one right into the next right to the next. James was doing Wonderful World in Chicago and then flying in on the day off to rehearse in New York for Spamalot, and then was, like, doing Zoom rehearsals from Chicago. And we essentially had a one. We had two tech days with him for Spamalot, the first day and the last day before first preview. So it was. Yeah, it was wild. It was fast. And then, of course, it was my debut. So, like, I wanted to do a good job, and I didn't want it to feel rushed or sort of thrown Together haphazardly. The good news is, like, the show was pretty much the same. We had some new cast members, we added some new scenery, we changed a couple of music things here and there. But generally speaking, it was the D.C. show. And so we were able to use all the information from DC and start from that. So it wasn't like a complete sort of rebuild. And then we just took the light plot and just kind of expanded it out for Broadway. And I had a great team, people with more Broadway credits than I did. And so it was great to have them around me. And yeah, man, we threw it together real fast.
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A
Very, very old school. Golden age. How quickly that happened. So something like Spamalot, it's. It's a very silly comedic show. So, you know, how does the lighting maybe enhance that? How does. How do you do funny lighting? Is that. Is that a thing?
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B
Yeah, it is a thing. I mean, we do. I mean, the thing I always point to for Spamalot was this joke that we do with Leslie at the top of Diva's Lament where she. And I don't actually remember how. I think I had the idea. And then I think Josh Rhodes had also the idea. And we. But we. Neither of us said anything. And then we kind of both were like, wouldn't it be funny if she came out and, like, the false spot wasn't on her? And then because Leslie is like a wild improv and she always wants to sort of explore. Then she, at the Kennedy center, she found out the name of our fall spot. Her name was Andy in dc. And so then Leslie and Andy would, like, come up with fall spot bits to do where, like, the spot wasn't on her. And then it looked like it was going to go on her, and then it like, moved to the other side. So they came up all these bits. And then when we moved to Broadway, our fellow spot up, her name was sue, who was doing that track on Leslie. So then sue and Leslie sort of came up with stuff, and we sort of fine tuned that to be like just the right amount of time, not too long, not too short. And that always got a really big laugh. So that's like a very on the nose way that we use sort of lighting for the humor. And then there are other instances, like in. In Won't Succeed on Broadway, you know, there's actually a line about dramatic lighting, which I remembered from the original production. I saw the original Spamalot at the Shubert Theater. I loved it. I thought it was great. I thought it was so funny. I Was excited to work on another version and come up with my own versions of these, like, iconic moments. So we did, like, a funny lighting. There's a lot of what I would call, like, funny lighting in Won't Succeed on Broadway. And so we do all this sort of, like, dramatic lighting to. To enhance what. What Sir Robin is singing. And then, like, we get into the Fiddler section and we sort of make it, like, overly dramatic. And when Ethan was on top of the house with the. The. With the violin, like, we use this, like, really low footlight to send this sort of shadow of him up on the wall to make it seem sort of very kind of melodramatic and. And, you know, sort of Sweeney Todd esque. And. And then when we get into the bottle dance, you know, it's this, like, really, really, really hot lighting that's sort of supporting the. Kind of how wild the music gets in that section. So it's just. I think funny lighting is really just about, like, leaning into it and saying, like, okay, what is, like, what is this riffing on? What is this a parody of? And then, like, what is the most sort of, like, silliest version of that that we can do? And so sometimes that's like, color, obviously, like, song that goes like this. We're sort of riffing on Phantom, and so it's really sort of hazy and smoky, and there's these really, really beams that kind of are emulating that sort of 80s rock musical period that. That we went through. And then, you know, there's other moments throughout the show where we're just sort of like, trying to. To. To. To throw back to whatever musical or musical theater style the script is doing or the choreography is doing. And then we try to enhance that with the lighting to kind of make it feel like a full. A full package. But it's fun. And my. My sort of, like, years and years of being a musical theater fan sort of pay off in a show like that. Because whether we're riffing on Fiddler or riffing on Phantom, I'm trying to think, like, other things that we riff on, things like that. It becomes sort of easier. Oh, there's a section at the end of the show called Coco Shenanigans where the knights are moving around, and there's different sort of little musical motifs within it. And one of them sounds like west side Story, and one of them sounds like a Fosse show, and one of them feels like sort of like a jazzy sort of thing. And so, like, understanding like, okay, what is the Most extreme, obvious version of, like, Fossilighting and what is, like, west side Story feel like. And being able to just have those references to kind of call on that, that. That sort of makes that a lot easier.
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A
So then to pivot to Gatsby for a second. How. So how long were you working on Gatsby?
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B
So I went to. To see a reading of Gatsby in, like, August of 22. And I was just there as a friend, really, of Mark Bruni's, who I had been working with at the Kennedy Center. We had done Music Man. We did the Nutty professor up at a Gonkwood playhouse.
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A
So my friend Elena was in that.
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B
Oh, yes, of course. Love Elena. She was fantastic. Elena was in that Gatsby reading, actually, back in August of 2020.
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A
She didn't tell me that. I'm gonna have to yell at her later.
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B
Yeah, she was. She was in the female ensemble, I think. So I was very close with Mark, and I knew that he had this Greg Gatsby musical and development. And so Paul and I actually just went to the reading, kind of as friends and fans. But, you know, I'm no dummy. Like, I know what's going on. Like, shows get developed. Shows eventually need teams. Like, if something is interesting, interesting to me, you know, I will find a way to maybe get in that room. So. But I truly was there. Just, like, there were no productions planned. It was just a reading, and it was fantastic. And I was so into it. And it was a lot of different cast at that time and a lot of different songs, but the bones were there, and I was super into it, and I walked out of it. And Paul and I were like, wow, this would be really cool to design if this ever actually happens. It's sort of like a designer's dream. The Great Gatsby. So that was, like, August of 22, and then by the end of that year, we had heard that it was going to Paper Mill the following season. And by that point, Paul had been formally asked to do the scenic video. And I was sort of angling for the lighting job and somehow. Don't know. But eventually that sort of came to fruition and. And I got that job. So we really sort of. We started in earnest, like, the beginning of 23, like, in January. At that point we had, what, like, sort of nine months to sort of throw it all together. So we spent all of 23 sort of figuring it out and cracking it. And the script was changing and new songs were being written and things like that, but we sort of figured all that out. And then it happened at Paper Mail in October. And then what was wild was we didn't. We obviously, we hoped for a Broadway transfer, but we didn't know when. We didn't know how soon. We didn't know if that would, you know, ever actually happen. And so we all went to the closing performance, which was November, so mid November, we went to the closing and all were like, okay, here are the things we would want to fix here. Here are the weak spots here. Here are the scenery we'd want to add. But it was all sort of hypothetical at the time. But then very quickly, we started again hearing rumblings of possibly the Broadway being available. And there would talk about could they restore it in time for us? Because obviously it was still set up for Here Lies Love. And we had heard that it was going to take something like three months to get the theater restored. And literally, we were in Spamalot Tech, I remember, and we had, like, started hearing this. And we were doing the math, trying to figure out if it took three months to restore it, how long to load it and how long to tech it could we get it opened by the Tony cutoff. And what's Wild is, like, we are literally opening this Thursday, April 25, the last possible night for the Tony cutoff. So we. We are. We are getting in under the wire. But we found out, I think, December 12, that we were going to the Broadway and they needed drawings, like, the next week, and we needed a light plot right after Christmas. So it was. It was crazy trying to get it all done in time because they. The load in started the first week of February. So we had the shot. The scene shop told us it would. This. A show of this size would usually take 18 weeks to build, and we had five. And so it was. It was bananas trying to get it all. And meanwhile, like, thank God we had. We had just been talking about the changes we wanted to make hypothetically, because we had to very quickly turn those hypothetical changes into real changes. And. But of course, we were being told, like, oh, we're getting a new. We're getting a new song for Daisy at the top of Act 1, and we're getting a new. New money and we're gonna. And. But, like, it hadn't been written yet, so we were. We were writing scenes and, you know, we were making scenes and designing things for things that were still being written. And everyone was, like, moving at a breakneck pace. But the fact is, the show. The show was really big physically. It requires a lot of backstage space. And there are only a few theaters that we could fit in. And so the Broadway was one of them. And when it became available, there was a little bit of, like, you got to strike while the iron's hot. And, you know, I know, I know there's been some talk about, like, it was rushed, and, like, you know, people can. People can have their opinion, but the fact is, like, if you are a producer on Broadway and you are offered a house, you take. You take the house. Like, there are very few instances of people saying, no, thank you, because there are so many shows and so few houses that you. You don't. You really can't say no. And we had. We had something. We knew we had time to make it better, and we have. But, yeah, the house opened up, and it was just like, we had to go. And so everyone was like, full steam ahead, you know, April 25th is the finish line. Let's see.
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A
What I don't know about you, Corey. I. I like to read the message boards because I find them very funny. They're just a lot of people who don't actually know what goes on in. In making a show or anything in the industry. And they'll say things, and I'll be like, are you aware of actually the realities of this? Someone will be like, oh, they should have done three out of Towns in a workshop. I'm like, do you know how much money that costs?
- [22:35]
B
Well, I also saw one thing that was like, oh, I bet the writers. Something about the writers wanting or not wanting. And I was like, guys, the writers are writers. Writers are not choosing, like, what theater you go in. I mean, the machinations that go into what theater a show goes in. It's, like, wildly complex, and it's above everyone's pay scales. It's between. Between the theater owner and the producers and the show that's coming out. You know, sometimes, like, sometimes people don't know that, like, if. If a. If a show is, like, hanging on and then. And I'm not saying this had anything to do with us, but like. Like, if one show is leaving and another show is coming in, sometimes the show coming in will pay for some of the. The closing costs or any of the restoration costs. Like, there's. There's so many things that happen to make to determine where shows end up. And, like, you know, like, oh, oh, there's, like, too many seats. It's like, what. Like, you know what I mean? Like, we. Yeah, you don't get to. You don't get to decide, you know, what stage is Best. And what number of seats is like.
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A
You just, it's, it's very rare for a team to be picky about the theater like you. You have to be having such a hot show that coming in that like everyone wants you. I mean there's. We'll move on from this in just a second. But I just, I found this one very funny too. There was a time before Lempico was announced to come to Broadway. There was this like, I don't know how to describe it any other way, but like Broadway Qanon theory that it wasn't going to come in until Hadestown closed because Rachel Chavkin had a quote unquote good history with the Walter Kerr Theater. To which I'm like, yeah, Hadestown. Like that's her show in the Walter Kerr. That's not a good history. And also like, what makes you think that Rachel Chapkin's the one like sitting there being like, I will demand what theater?
- [24:17]
B
Yeah. I mean, to the best of my knowledge, like directors are, have little to no involvement in those decisions. They are being made well above their heads. And you just, you, you know, booked and blessed. You just, you are grateful if someone gives you a house and you figure out how to make it work and, and you do the best you can to make it a hit in that, in that house. And you know, that's all, that's all I can say about that.
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A
Like, I mean Gatsby fits in the Broadway very well. I saw it last week and you know, you guys fill up what is a giant space and that is very difficult to do.
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B
Yeah, I mean we have a couple things working towards this. Number one, we the, for people don't know the Broadway is the second biggest seating house on Broadway, right after the Gershwin. But you can close off the back rear mezzanine and it closes off 275 seats. And most shows do that or, or do that eventually. I think we were very smart in doing it right out of the gate with this many shows on Broadway, with, with the current sort of overall Broadway attendance, unless you are Wicked, no one is selling 1700 seats a night. It's just not, it's just not viable anymore. And so also the Broadway is really huge. And when you sit back there, it is pretty far from the stage. And so wisely we have, we've reduced our seat count and so that's even the last row of the sold seats is actually not that bad anymore. And it allows us, it allows us to sell out faster. It allows us to, you know, Hit our sort of potential capacity, sort of profits every week, and it just makes it for a more intimate space. So, like, that was the first thing. The second thing is that the Broadway was built, I think, in 25, so it has, like, a really great deco feel to it, even if you look at the lettering on the outside of the theater. So it felt like a really good fit for a show that takes place in the 20s. And then, like I said, the third thing was just the backstage that Broadway has. One of the biggest backstages on Broadway, you have sort of the normal depth that you might find at a Broadway theater. And then there's a series of columns, and then behind those columns, it was like another 10 or 15ft, which we cram with scenery. And if we didn't have that space, I'm not sure where everything would go. And so, yeah, it just worked out really well. It's actually a really. And we needed a big orchestra pit. Gatsby has 19 or 18 musicians plus a conductor. And if you've seen the show, you know that we do some other things with the orchestra pit that required performers coming in and out of it. So somewhere around all those musicians, we needed pathways for performers. And so thankfully, they have a pretty big pit at the Broadway as well, so we were able to accommodate all that.
- [26:59]
A
And, you know, mild spoiler, vague spoilers for what is one of the most famous novels of all time. I won't be specific, but, you know, a body might need to fall into that pit at some point, and you need space for said body to fall into it. And that's all we're going to say about that. But for Gatsby, for your collaboration with the scenic designer, how do you guys sort of talk about that? You know, as a. As a lighting designer, how do you communicate what you're thinking of doing with the design that you're being given? How does that collaboration work? And then how do you talk to the director about it?
- [27:31]
B
This will be a long answer, so strap in.
- [27:34]
A
So I'm here for it.
- [27:35]
B
Paul and I have been working together for 14 years. And we started. Our first show together was at Capital Rep in Albany, New York. We did a production of Christmas Carol, and we've essentially worked on projects every year together since then. And we do all the Kennedy center shows together, and we've done a lot of shows. So the first thing is there's 14 years of sort of a partnership of working together. So that there's that because I have such a close working relationship with him, and as well as With Mark and the three of us have done stuff together. I am pretty involved early on with the design process, which is not always the case with the lighting designer. It's something that I like to work that way. And thankfully they welcome me into the room for those early conversations. So I get involved really early as we're sort of figuring out the look of the show and the layout. And we're not talking about lighting at that point. We're nowhere near sort of talking about lighting. It's much more kind of broad stroke ideas about how the show flows and how the show moves. You know, the thing about musicals is they live and die by their transitions. And Great Gatsby has a lot of locations and a lot of like, fabulous locations and. And you. We knew sort of right out of the bat that this wasn't going to be like a. Oh, this location is represented by like a flat and a chair. You know, I mean, like each. Each location had to be, you know, more or less fully realized. Some. Some more than others. But we needed to have a lot of locations. We need to be able to get from all those locations very quickly and efficiently. And so that often drives the design is like, how are we getting from point A to point B to point C? And that's also one of Mark's strengths. Mark came up under Jerry Zaks and Kathleen Marshall and Walter Bobby and these directors who are known for these really big musicals with lots of scenery and lots of locations and everything moving so smoothly. And so Mark is really good at kind of understanding how a show needs to move and how much room he needs for certain scenes, which scenes can play in one, which scenes need to be full stage. So. So that's sort of where we talk. We start. And also, of course there's like pages and pages and pages and books of research and that, you know, Paul get. Paul gets into all of that and. And he comes in with. With brilliant, you know, books and spreads. And Mark will sort of like react, find things and respond to, you know, ideas and. And shapes and images and trends and, you know, all sorts of things. And so then eventually a. A set kind of started to take shape and again, we're still not talking about the lighting. We're just talking about the show and the story we're trying to tell and the world we talk a lot about, like the box that the show exists in. Gatsby can be tricky because, yes, there is Gatsby's mansion, but there's also the Wilson's world, which is in Valley of the Ashes. Which is the complete polar opposite of Gatsby's world. It's sort of a dirt and soot covered kind of barren landscape that is in Queens. And so it was like, how do we, how do we depict that location in this kind of Gatsby environment? So we talked a lot about that. And then eventually we sit down with the ground plan and they, you know, Paul and Mark start figuring out ways to close down the space to open it back up. We ended up with some sliders downstage, another set of what we call the gates upstage, and then lots of flying elements and then lots of video elements that live in all of that. And through all that we were able to create kind of all these different shifting worlds. And then as that stuff starts to come about, then I might start chiming in with lighting things, you know, about like, well, if, you know, if that's here, we could, we could light it this way or we could backlight it this or, you know, well, can we make a scene feel fully realized in 8ft of space? And you know, I might say, like, well, there's no, there's no lighting position within that eight feet. So it's going to be, we're going to be limited. So we start sort of talking about real estate and we swap things around and we move a piece downstage or then try it upstage. And Paul does a lot of work in 3D, sort of 3D work in the computer. So we look at 3D renderings of things and we'll sort of, he'll animate things in the computer and we'll see how pieces can move in and out. And so that's really what takes up the bulk of the process. And then finally once the ground plan is sort of settled, then we can start to layer in the lighting and figure out where we can fit in lighting positions because it's very crowded up there, there's a ton of scenery. And so it's all about sort of vying for real estate space and where we can, where we can put lights. And then like, we finally, like, once we've figured out all the physical production, then, you know, eventually we actually start talking about sort of the art of the lighting and what something might look like and what it might feel like and, and, and how this number might look. And, and we, you know, we, we did paper mail. And then there were some things that like, I wasn't thrilled about. And you know, we were like, I think we, we felt like we hadn't really nailed the opening and sort of the look of that. And there were some other numbers that I wasn't super happy with. There was a scene that takes place in Act 2 between Nick and Gatsby sort of the. The. The climax of their kind of relationship at the side of Gatsby's pool. And I was like, never happy with sort of the time of day shift of that. And I always felt like we needed to. And then. And then get brighter with the sun coming up. So, you know, we had long conversations about that. And we talk about what time is. What time does the scene start and what time does the scene end. And, you know, in every. Every scene we'll talk about, like, you know, what does it feel like? Is it. Is it. Is it sunrise? Is it dusk? Is it fully dark yet? And so we'll talk about that. I'll look at the costumes. We'll see the colors that Linda was working with because obviously we want the lighting to play nicely with the. With the costumes. And then because Paul was doing the video content, which was a. Which is a large element of the set, I would often pull my colors out of what he was creating. So Valley, whether it's Valley of Ashes or Gatsby's mansion or the cottage. The cottage is a really great example of, like, he essentially. He designed some hard scenery for the cottage. He created some virtual scenery to fill in around that. And then I pulled all of those colors and textures out in the lighting. And then I feel like when you look at it, it all kind of just coalesces together into sort of one thing and all the lighting and matches. So a lot of times I'm pulling colors from him, he's pulling colors from me. Sometimes he'll actually take photographs of the actual lighting of, like, a piece of scenery and then recreate that color and lighting and shadow in the video content. We're constantly matching our timings. We'll run transitions over and over until the lighting and the video are moving together. We'll get in arguments about which side of the stage the sun should be coming from. And I'll say, but I lit it with the sun coming from stage left. And he said, but I made the video of the sun from stage right. And then. And we'll sort of talk about that and figure out how to. How to match that up. Yeah, it's a. It's a. It's a constant back and forth. I'll say, I think the video can be brighter here. He'll say, I think the lighting is. Is, you know, too. Whatever it's not, it feels Too saturated. And the video feels too. Too. Or the video. The video feels paler, and the lighting feels saturated. Like, we need to find common ground. So literally every day in the theater for tech, you know, we're just constantly trying to match the two. And then after each preview, we would, like, have notes for each other, and I'd be like, I think the video needs to fade a little slower here. And he'd be like, I think the lighting is too yellow in this moment. And because the video is more sepia. And so we. We just go through that every single day. And, you know, and then eventually we froze last week, and now the show is. You know, the show is what it is. And then to your. Your second question about conveying it to the director, Some line designers do, like, renderings or drawings or paintings or. I don'. Any of that. I never have. I'm not particularly good at any of that, and I don't. I'm not really sure how useful that is. I do think that there's usefulness in, like, research and looking at photographs or paintings or things in, like, color palettes and saying, like, does this vibe feel right? Do you like this color world? You know, does this quality of light feel right? And a director will. Will respond to that. But usually if, like, if it's a director I've worked with a lot, like Mark, honestly, we don't talk about the lighting, really. I just do my thing in the theater, and he responds. And I think that's one of the reasons why directors hire the same lighting designers, because there is a somewhat ethereal quality to it that is hard to articulate. And it's so much easier for a director to just hire a lighting designer whose work and style they like and just know that whatever that designer comes up with will probably be in line with what they want. And so I just. Will kind of just do my thing, and I'll sort of check in with Mark and be like, does this feel like the right idea? Like, the first time we lit Shady, which is the Act 2 opening, which has a really sort of distinct lighting approach to it, I hadn't really talked to anybody about what I was thinking. I just sort of started doing it, and then we did it for a bit, and then we went on a break, and I went out to Mark and Dom, our choreographer, I was like, does this feel like the right idea? And they were both like, yes, we love this. This is. This is a really cool approach. So then we just kind of. We kind of kept doing that, and then. And then Mark Will, you know, or any director, they just. They will give feedback. And again, it's not always lighting feedback. It might just say, like, this feels too dingy. This feels too happy. Like, can it be more unsettling? Can I. Can. Can I see their faces more? I feel like I'm seeing their faces too much. Can. Can I see the silhouettes more? And so then I will just take that and. And interpret those notes into. Into the lighting. But we rarely actually specifically before doing it. It's just. I. I just find it's too tricky. It's too hard to talk about. And we can just look at the stage, and I'm pretty fast, and we can just throw something together and look up together and go, does this feel right or not? And then it's so much easier to respond to something you're looking at than to kind of talk about something hypothetically. So that's a little bit of how it works.
- [37:51]
A
Got it. So going off of what you had just said, though, so let's say, you know, you are, you know, teching a scene or you're, you know, in previews for a scene, and Mark says, you know, okay, this scene is coming off too happy. I would like to make it much dingier as a lighting designer and, you know, go as tech heavy as you want in this talk, but, like, how would you start going about doing that as a. As a designer? Where do you go, okay, how do I make that a reality?
- [38:16]
B
Sure. So there's, like, a couple tools that are disposable, obviously. Like, an obvious one is color. You know, you can think about colors you might see in, like, a musical comedy versus colors you might see in, like, a drama or, you know, a dark. A dark piece. A dark. Tonally. I mean, so, you know, if something, let's say, you know, to your example, like, if something's feeling too happy, like, it's okay, maybe. Maybe the color is too pretty, and maybe we actually want the people or the scenery to feel a little uglier. And so that could be. That could be a color thing. We might sort of cool off the color. We might add, like, a little hint of green or a little hint of. Of, like a steely blue to kind of make it feel, you know, a little crisper and not quite so pretty. Obviously, there are colors that make people's skin look in costumes, look very nice, but then you can do the opposite if you're actually trying to make it look like something else. Like in Valley of. Valley of Ashes, in the Wilson stuff, particularly in the first Scene. Like, we use this really sort of, like, kind of acidic yellow color that we really want to contrast with all of the Gatsby stuff that has come before. So it really, you know, it makes the people look not quite so. So beautiful as they did in the previous scenes. So color. Color is a big thing. Another thing is angle. We'll talk about the angle that the light is coming from. You know, if you're coming from a really sort of pleasing front light angle that perfectly illuminates the face and the body. And that can be really great for something like musical comedy. If you're. If you're trying to do the opposite, you might come more from the side. The, you know, side lighting will tend to put people more in shadows. Backlighting as well, you could. You can enhance sort of the shapes of a body or scenery and maybe not focus so much on, like, facial features or skin tone. And so that angle is another way that we're able to kind of manipulate the scene and how it looks. So, you know, it's just kind of things like that. And sometimes it really is trial and error. It's just like if something doesn't look right on stage, you know, it's just like we just punch through a bunch of colors until we go like, oh, wait, hold there like that. That's looking great. And that's sort of the joy of the modernization of lighting design, is that everything is automated and everything is. You can sort of change it on the spot, whereas in the old days, you might have to climb up a ladder and change color, change a physical gel or refocus a light. We still have some of those lights in the rig, but generally speaking, most of the lights, a lot of them can move, and even more of them can. Can change color. And so we can all just sit and look at the stage and try different colors and try different textures until we find the thing that works. And so that. That has been, you know, over the past, like, 25 years, that's been like, one of the biggest changes in how we. How we do lighting design is that while you still have to figure out a lot before you get in the room, there is the opportunity to just essentially try out things in the room if you have the time and kind of find the best thing that works live in the moment.
- [41:17]
A
Got it. How often do you sit in rehearsals for a show that you're lighting? Do you pop in and out? Do you kind of wait till towards the end?
- [41:25]
B
It depends. Prior to, like, the past year, I did a lot of work Outside of New York. Some of those shows rehearse in New York, but a lot of them don't. So if the rehearsal is in some other city, I'm not really getting there until the very end of the process. I'll go to a designer run and I watch that and then that'll be that. If it's in New York. I do try to pop in more when we're for the Kennedy center shows rehearsed in New York. So I will try to pop in those more often. Also, more and more now there are sort of like private videos being made because everybody wants to see what's happening in the room and not everybody can get there. And so, like, for instance, on Gatsby, they would essentially upload every day what they had done in the room. So if they'd staged a new number or a new scene or done your choreography, I could watch those videos every night. And that was super helpful because I would watch them and then I might text the choreographer and be like, hey, I love this. Like, I love this thing you're doing. Like, what if we did X, Y and Z? And then he could be like, yeah. So we can talk about ideas throughout the rehearsal process. And then when I come to the designer run, it's not. It's not like I'm starting from scratch. It is. I'm just kind of seeing all the pieces put together. But I do like to like, for Gatsby, sometimes they would do like a full read through of the script or sing through. And I like to attend those. It's just good to hear the whole show kind of together. And you can sort of imagine it as. It's. As it's going. So I like to be in the room a lot. Some directors want more time kind of without visitors. A lot of directors, thankfully are say, you know, you're welcome to come watch whenever you want. But for me, like, there's no such thing as too much information. When I go into tech, the better that I know the show, the less I have to look at my script, the less I have to look at the video. We always have a video of the full run through that we can reference. So if I know the music better, if I know the choreo better, if I know everything better, it just makes the process go faster. I can talk to the other team members more specifically about the show. So I try to pop in as much as I can and kind of immerse myself in the show as best as, as possible.
- [43:39]
A
So this isn't necessarily Gatsby Specific. Although you could have this answer for Gatsby if you like. Is there a time you've been in a rehearsal and you've watched either a dance number or a scene happen and a specific thing gave you an idea for a lighting moment? Like if a piece of choreography or a piece of staging or something that an actor did, you're like, ooh, what if we did a spotlight here? We did this kind of color combo here.
- [43:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, a lot of that. There is a lot of that in Gatsby. And like, I'll go back to Shady, which is the. Which is the top of that act to number. And that was something that I had watched the choreography that Dom had done and I had sort of gotten an idea of how to light it based on what the. What, you know, the song had a real sort of noir esque sound to it. And Dom had sort of put everyone in trench coats. And the choreography was in a sense staged in a way that like, you didn't necessarily want to see everyone's faces. It was more about the silhouettes and having people in shadows. And the whole idea of the song is that there's kind of all this shady happening kind of in the. In the periphery of our main storytelling and kind of what's happening behind the scenes and in the back alleyways and you know, with the, with. With the. The bootlegging, you know, and the. And the. The prohibited alcohol sort of being transferred from one location to another. And so seeing. Seeing that in the room and seeing how he had staged that, you know, whether it's them having their backs to the audience or the shapes that the ensemble was forming, that really informed how I wanted to light it, which was like really dark and really shadowy and like really sort of geographic and creating kind of little boxes and lines and high contrast between light areas and then dark areas. And that all really came out of watching the choreography and seeing what they were doing. And then that sort of sparked an idea and then that we started running with it and everyone was like, yes, yes, more, More of this. So that's an example. Yeah.
- [45:33]
A
So, I mean, I have my personal moment, but I remember it's. I don't remember the name of the song, but it's the number where Jordan takes Nick to Gatsby's party. That dance number one.
- [45:43]
B
Yeah. New Money.
- [45:44]
A
Yeah, New Money, yeah. There's. I may be misremembering, but I recall there was a moment of lighting where it was sort of blue and red together on the stage. And I just am. I Making that up. I feel like I saw those two callers.
- [45:56]
B
No, I'm laughing because I know exactly the moment you're talking about. We call it the Charleston Room. It happens stage left, and it is everyone's new favorite. Like, you. It's such a good. Like, you. And. And. And I can't tell you how many we were. We were. We were lighting that scene, and there's a moment where, like, Nick and Jordan are, like, yelling over each other, over all the dancers. Cause it's like a. We tried to make it feel like a really sort of tiny, cramped room, and everyone's doing the Charleston. It's very crowded. And then kind of all the music stops, and the. I mean, all this kind of dancing stops, and the cast sort of becomes much more frozen. And Jordan and Nick continue their conversation. And I just felt like there wasn't enough contrast between, like, the big, loud dancy section and then this sort of, like, little private conversation that Nick and Jordan were having. So I sort of, like, added this really deep blue color and contrasted it with this red from the other side. And, like, the day I did it, the number of people that were like, oh, my God, can the show look like that? Can the show. Can there be more of that? And we tried to find a couple other moments, but honestly, that. We didn't really find anything that would work as well as that moment. But this is this one moment where just, like, it's probably, like, the most saturated cue in the show, and the dancers just become this, like, really. I sort of think of, like, the chorus line lighting. There's like, these two different colors from each side, and it just. They just become these kind of like. Like, bodies in space behind Nick and Jordan. And, yeah, literally, like, Paul, the choreographer, the director, like, everyone was like, oh, my God, that moment looks so cool now. And it was truly just, like, on a whim. And so that's why I'm laughing that you remembered that moment, because it was such, like, a little. And we're only in it for maybe, like, 15 seconds. And it was like such a quick little, like, hey, just make those. This color and turn those red. And then everyone was like, whoa.
- [47:45]
A
Well, I'm a sucker for that kind of lighting anyway. You know, it is very much like a Theron Muser kind of thing, which I appreciate, like, with Dream Girls and Chorus Line that, you know, two colors combining to make a whole vibe. And I remember liking it because, as you said, it does have the red, does, you know, reflect the heat and the intensity of a gatsby party. But we are having this intimate conversation. There's the Jordan line of, you know, I love big parties. You know, when with, you know, intimate parties you can't get any privacy, large parties, you get nothing but privacy. So the blue is that, that, is that privacy. But I, I brought it up because as you know, the designer of, of this show, if someone were to go into Gatsby after this interview to you know, watch your work with, outside of, you know, my favorite moment. Are there moments in the show where you in particular would love someone to kind of pay attention to the lighting, like a specific scene or a moment and you know, you know, pay attention to the lightning design and, and, and why in that moment, I mean I.
- [48:43]
B
I, I think I would be remiss to say to anyone, like go in and pay attention to the lighting because that's not why you're there. And I, having said that, I acknowledge that the lighting is a pretty forward facing element in this show, as are all the design elements. And you know, I, someone asked me this question recently and I said like, I don't, okay, like, like the end of Act 1, which I won't sort of spoil, which is sort of like a kind of build up and then sort of a little thing at the end. But like I don't want people specifically thinking about the lighting or the scenery. But the number of people who have said like, oh my God, the ending of Act 1 was thrilling and like, like I, I like lost my breath and you know, like I want people to have an emotional response to what they experience in the room and I want to be a part of causing that emotional response. And if someone recognizes that the lighting is part of what did that, then I'm thrilled for that. But I'm also just as happy for them to not, to not understand that, you know, the, the I mentioned earlier, there's the scene with Nick and Gatsby at his, at his pool. And then I'm gonna mild spoiler here but like, you know, Nick exits and then another character enters and then things go south very quickly. But like I'm so, I'm particularly proud of that scene because it starts, like I said, it starts in kind of a kind of just before sunrise moment. And then throughout the course of the scene, the sun rises kind of over the top of the set and it kind of lands us in a position where I want it to be for that particular moment that happens at the end of that scene. And I just, I'm just like really happy with the way that the lighting sort of of builds and matches the emotion of what. Of what Gatsby is going through and where the lighting ends and kind of how bright and sunny it is, which is a little bit counterintuitive to the action that's happening on stage, which is a fairly dark event, but dark tonally. But I love the idea of doing that event in kind of like beautiful, bright morning sunlight because it was, like, really cool juxtaposition of like, oh, my God, it's like a beautiful, brilliant day. Everything is going to be okay, and clearly it's not. But again, I don't necessarily want people thinking about the lighting in that moment, but if they. If it helps, sort of like surprise them or they find it sort of shocking or grotesque or whatever, you know, that I like contributing to that. Another thing would be the character of Myrtle. If people don't know Myrtle has a bit of a tragic ending. And the way that we accomplish that, that is achieved a lot through lighting and light and darkness and hiding things in the light and things like that. And again, that's something that we worked really, really hard on, and we tried it a hundred different ways, and I think where we landed was pretty good. And again, I don't. I don't necessarily want people to point to the lighting, but I will say that every night when that happens, the entire audience gasps. And it's really thrilling to kind of feel the room, kind of all have a shared experience like that, that. And to know that, like, I helped create that. So that that's really what I'm after are. And I think the show is full of those moments. Like the first time we go into new money, the kind of the big reveal of the full stage. Like, you could just feel the. The. The audience be thrilled with, like, a big, full stage of scenery and dancers and, like, it just feels like a big, fabulous show. And there's a lot of those moments where I just, you know, I feel like the lighting helps contribute to these exciting moments. The cottage reveal is another one. Every time we reveal the cottage, you always feel like people go in the audience and there's not actually that much to it, but it's a complete surprise. And it comes out of darkness and the way we sort of iris open to it. And the blending of lighting and scenery and video creates a look that we haven't seen yet in the show yet. And those aren't accidents. We work really, really hard to create those moments where you don't think about any one specific design, but you do have a kind of A visceral reaction to what you're seeing. I hear you. That's the goal. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy.
- [53:04]
A
Theater is a collaborative process. Musical theater especially. It's about many different departments coming together to create a unified product. So I totally hear you, but.
- [53:12]
B
Yeah, this.
- [53:13]
A
But, Corey, this is Broadway Breakdown, which means we break down a lot of things. So my listeners often like to. You know, it's. What we like to do is sort of. We not necessarily take apart a thing so much as we look at different elements of things and realize how each thing contributes to make something work, or in some shows, not work, and then figure out why and. And how. And, you know, I don't think there's any shame in saying, you know what.
- [53:36]
B
What?
- [53:37]
A
In this scene, I lit something really fucking well. And. And if you notice that. Thank you very much.
- [53:42]
B
I mean, you did. I would go back to the cottage reveal because the. The cottage reveal always would get like, oohs and ahs at Paper Mill. And when we did it, when we started doing it on Broadway and the previews, it wasn't happening and we couldn't figure out why. And we actually went back to the Papermill video and we were like, trying to study it, and we were looking at the exact timing and how long it took and what you could see. And then one morning, Paul and I were like, can you just set up the cottage for us? And we spent a couple hours just working on the lighting and the video. And what. Like, we discovered all sorts of things. We discovered that, like the, The. The. The. The. The. Like foliage and the hedges and the, The. The. The. The overgrowth was not lit enough in the. In the initial reveal. And the colors weren't exactly matching between the lighting and the video and that some of the lights were taking longer to turn on, so some of the caught. Anyways, there was all these tiny little kind of things, and it really was like a forensic investigation of figuring out. Because it's really hard to take a moment in theater that feels so ephemeral and then articulate why that moment works and then. Then figure out why it's not working in the next time you do it. Because. Because it. It is the. The cumulation of, like, all these tiny little elements, like music, set, video, lighting, like, applause, timing, like, like the temperature of the room. I mean, like, everything contributes to why a moment like, may or may not land and this moment wasn't landing. And we were really frustrated. And so we just went through and we made all these tiny, tiny, little minuscule changes of color and light and timing and this and that. And then we did it that night and it got the reaction that we had been getting at Papermill. And, you know, it's not like. I mean, it's not like people applaud, but I like to sit amongst the audience. I don't like sitting in the back. So for previews, I always sort of move around the orchestra and, you know, you can feel an energy from the audience members around you. And, like, when the cottage gets revealed, there is always a little bit of a little murmur that kind of runs through the audience. And. Yeah, and we were missing it and we got it back and it really took some drilling down and sort of trying to figure out what was missing. So there's a little inside breakdown of a particular moment. And then I would say, literally the last few of Act 1, which I won't spoil here, it's not particularly innovative or clever. It's just an idea that I had that I thought could be a cool way to end the act. But people seem obsessed with it and people write about it online and say it's their favorite moment. And, you know, I love a good Act 1 finale. I mean, there's nothing like watching the end of Defying Gravity, the energy. The energy that you get at the end of that act, or the energy at the end of, you know, one Day More or something. Like, I think, right, that's the Act 1 finale for Les.
- [56:44]
A
Mischievous.
- [56:45]
B
Like, I mean, to me, there's like. Like sending the audience into intermission with their, like, hearts, like, pounding in their chest. I think is a really exciting thing. And I love a. I love a blackout. Like, I love just a good, timed, exciting, perfect blackout. And so we came up with a way to make this blackout just. Just a little. Just add a little bit of frosting on it. And it. It. Mark Hoby, who was the artist director of Paper Mill, was like, it's one of the most thrilling ends of an act I've ever seen scene, which. Which, again, there's not much to it, but it's just the buildup of Daisy and Gatsby, if you're rooting for them, which, believe me, some people are not. And I totally get that. And some people think that it's, you know, that we're leaning into the. Into the love story too much. And I get that. But, like, obviously, everything is deliberate, and this is. This is the version that we are interested in putting on stage. And so with that in mind, like, it was like, how do you know? It's. It's like a consummation of everything that has been building in act one in this moment. And it just sort of takes you into the. Into the intermission kind of hopefully is somewhat breathless. And. And. And we actually. We actually had ideas to try different ideas at the end of Act 1, adding half of half a second here to there. And I kind of resisted everyone. I said, guys, we should not tinker with this. This. People love this moment. Like, we should not try to make it. We should not try to change it. Which I had an idea, actually. I had an idea of something I wanted to do, and I was really pushing for it. And then after the first couple of previews, I went, you know what? I think we should not even do this. I think we should just not touch this. It's working. The audiences are really loving it. So sometimes you just have to kind of let something be and let it go and go. You know what? We might have the best version of this already. Let's just. Let's not. We always say, like, don't break it. And we had a. We had a fairly long preview process, and actually my production electrician, who's great, Patty J. Came to me and he said, don't break things. He said, I've seen lighting designers with lots of Tony Awards break stuff because they just keep tinkering and they keep tinkering, and there's too much time, and they take things that were working. So we were very cautious to, like, not break things that were working. So. So that's. That's one that we didn't really touch.
- [58:54]
A
Well, then. So I guess for last question on this one, we were talking about comedic lighting for Spamlot. What is a tool for romantic lighting for something like Gatsby? You know, if you're. If you're leaning into passion and romance. How do you set that kind of mood for an audience?
- [59:10]
B
I mean, I think it. For me, it starts and ends with the music. I love the music for this show. I know how you feel about the music because I listened to your review, but we'll talk about that after. But I love the music for this show. And it.
- [59:25]
A
That's what we call gotcha journalism, everybody. But it's in reverse.
- [59:28]
B
It's in reverse. Look, I will say that, like, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
- [59:33]
A
And listen, I know people who love the Score of Gatsby. I'm not going to begrudge anybody. That's what art is for. It's for you to watch and have an opinion and then you move on. But I am honest that I say that I love your lighting. I believe I even say that in my review. Totally.
- [59:48]
B
So what I will say is that for me, I find this music thrilling. And that. That is sort of where I started and started with the. With the lighting. And so, like, you asked about, like, how to make the. How to sort of, like, enhance the romance. It's like, well, what is the intensity of the song right now? Like, is there a key change? Is there a build? Is there a crescendo? Like, how can the lighting be sort of the 20th musician in the pit for this show? And so for something like My Green Light, which is like the big kind of romantic crest at the end of act one, it was like, how can we support that lighting, support that music and have the lighting be as kind of to match the emotions of the music and to match the emotions that the characters are feeling. So if they're holding out a, like, a really long note forever, you know, let's support that with, like, a lighting cue that really builds and, like. And draws into that. And so. So in that moment, like, it's less about, like, color this or. Or angle, whatever, and it's really about, like, just allowing yourself to give over to the lushness of the score and just going, like, you know, let's just support this with. With ideas that are, you know, if there. If the music is turning the dial up to 11, then the lighting needs to turn up to 11 and everything needs to sort of be in. In pace. So, like, the final note of My Green Light is this, like, big, beautiful acapella note that the two of them are holding together. And it's like. And then the orchestra comes in on the final chord. It's like, great. Well, we need some, like, big, strong backlights to build during all of that because just like the French horn player is crescendoing, you know, their note, and Jeremy and Eva are crescendoing their note. We need lights to crescendo up with them. So it's really about sort of like fitting yourself into kind of the. The orchestra like that.
- [61:43]
A
Nice.
- [61:43]
B
So I guess I bring that up.
- [61:46]
A
Just because, you know, it reminded me a bit of Piazza, you know, an Act 1 finale where it ends with an embrace. And it is very much about the romance.
- [61:53]
B
Yeah.
- [61:54]
A
And, you know, I think there are certain tones that are very divisive with audiences. Divisive devices. I never know how to say that word. But, you know, and because romance is so earnest and wholehearted, and as you said, you know, you guys with Gatsby decided to go for the romance and lean into that earnestness. You know, it's so tricky to walk that line of getting everyone on board. And of course, it's art, so not everyone's gonna be on board, but it's very impressive when you can get, you know, 14, 1500 people together on a piece of romance. Because I think if there's one thing that everyone's gonna have a different opinion about, it's life.
- [62:34]
B
Love.
- [62:34]
A
Right?
- [62:34]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I can. We can get into this a little bit. I mean, you know, I think one of the criticisms I've heard, you know, is that. That we do lean into the. Into the kind of romance of this, and that we do make a little bit of a love story. And. And again, obviously, that was a conscious decision. And I think there is a version of Gatsby that. That people, you know, some people might prefer that does not lean into the romance that says, like, well, this isn't. This isn't like. Like, this shouldn't be like a grand love story. But, you know, I think for us, like, there were a couple things, and obviously the writers could speak to this much more than I can, but it's like, number one, you know, it is musical theater. And in musical theater, everything is sort of heightened. And because, you know, the old adage of, like, well, we sing when we can't express through sort of dialogue anymore, well, we have to sing. And so whatever those emotions are, I think generally speaking, you know, going back to something like Les Mis, which I mentioned, you know, or like Wicked, or, you know, these other shows that are. That are these really sort of high intensity big kind of spectacle shows, it's like you need a reason to kind of support that spectacle to have these, like, big, big songs. And so I, you know, I think obviously having, you know, putting. Putting the love story a little bit centrally there, at least in act one, you know, I think it allows us to build up. And then for me, what the other thing I liked is. I think some of the criticisms. Criticisms have also. Also been like, well, well, that the show is actually like. It's a. It's about actually like much darker themes, you know, whether it's sort of like class mobility or the American dream and things like that. And. And I know, like, one thing that we all tried To. To think about and talk about is like, you need. You need the contrast, right? You need all. All of that sort of. That goes down in Act 2. You know, you don't want to play that in act one, right. You don't want to sort of like, spell out from sort of the jump kind of what it's going to be. So, like, for us in, like, the design world, like, things get very dark in Act 2 and tragic and traumatic. But, you know, we didn't really want to start in that place. In the same way that I always thought a little bit sometimes about, like, Titanic, right? Like, you have the overture of Titanic, which is like, a little bit of a hint at sort of the tragedy that's going to come, but then it gets kind of happy. And then you have this, like, one of the most, like, thrilling openings of Titanic of any musical. And. And then, you know, a lot of act one, there's some, like, musical comedy. You know, it's. And. And like, you have to go like, well, you can't have. You can't have the tragedy and the trauma in Act 2 without sort of the contrast in Act 1. And I also sometimes thought about, like, like, like disaster movies, you know, like when I went, like. Like a comet, like, hits the earth. Earth. It's like the movie never starts. Like, with the combat hitting the earth. You need, like, the first, like, half hour to, like, meet the people and. And, you know, fall in love with them and, like, care about them and then, like, all the. Comes later and then. Yeah, so we definitely tried to, like, not start it from such a dark place. So there's. So there's definitely a place to go from. So when you ask about, like, supporting the lighting, it's also like, even though. Even though everyone kind of knows the story of Gatsby, I. I think it's always important to tell a story as if no one knows the story. You know, be true to the. Be true to the plot as if it's, you know, in acting, they always say, like, doing it for the first time, right? You're always doing. Doing that scene for the first time. Like, we try to think that the audience is seeing this story for the first time. And so we know that, like, Daisy and Gatsby are not going to end up together. Spoiler alert. But it's like, you know, they don't, you know, Gatsby doesn't know that Gatsby, you know, Gatsby thinks that he's about to spend the rest of his life with Daisy. Now there are arguments to be made for like how complicit Daisy is in whether she's leading him on or whether like she actually believes in their love as well. And I think there, there are valid points in either direction. But as like storytellers, we wanted to show a version where like the characters believe what they are feeling, what they are singing. And so it's like, like trying to be true to their genuine. I'm experiencing this emotion. I'm saying these words for the first time and then, and then we see what happens in Act 2.
- [66:46]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, it's the double edged sword of Gatsby's source material. And I think, you know, it's, as I've said in my past episode, you know, it's a famously difficult subject matter to adapt. And you know, I think sort of the theme that keeps happening with the adaptations of Gatsby is, you know, with every criticism that goes against each new adaptation, it is followed by heaps of popularity and money. Like every version of it does well with audiences. And I think, you know, everyone has their own intention of how to do it. And the tricky thing about Gatsby is because the source material is very cynical. It's like for a musical to quote Buffy the Vampire Slayer, give me something to sing about. You know, you can't have everyone be fake and then give them all songs when they have no inner life. So it is a very tricky situation. I get that.
- [67:33]
B
That, yeah, there's. There's another thing that, that like as the designers that we thought a lot about, which was like, when there are so many like Gatsby themed things in the world, right? Like we've all been to like a New Year's Eve party or like a costume party or, or any sort of event, right? Like it's, it's such a popular source material. And so like we, we thought a lot about like yes, the book is about certain things, but there's also, it is almost transcended the book and become like a cultural shortcut to like a vibe, right? To like, if you go to like if you go to a party and, and it's like Gatsby theme party. And you get there and it's like a bunch of sad people talking about capitalism, you'd be like, this is not what I thought this was going to be.
- [68:15]
A
There are no dead bodies at the party.
- [68:18]
B
Totally. And it's like, why? Because obviously we researched some of those things. I even attended some of those other Gatsby things. And like, do you know, it's just the Party, right? It's like, it's the, like, it's the champagne, it's the dress, it's the music, it's the debauchery, it's the dancing. It's like. And Great Gatsby is so much more than all of that, as anyone who's read the book knows. But what's funny is like, culturally, that's become the thing that people want from a piece of Great Gatsby property first and foremost. So that was one of our challenges, which is like how to try to tell a well rounded story that covers all of those thematic topics, but also not be sitting through like a two hour dissertation on like, class structure in America and also like giving people what they want from a, from a cultural standpoint of what the Great Gatsby means. And so we thought about that and I think people have said, like, what's the biggest challenge? And I think the biggest challenge actually is sort of also our greatest strength, which is that no one can agree on what the best version of the Great Gatsby could be. As we've just seen said, everyone, everyone has like wild, wild opinions and they're like, very, very stubborn in how they believe Gatsby should be told and how Daisy should be traded and Nick should absolutely be the narrator or Nick should not be the narrator. You know what I mean? Like, people are so steadfast in their passions for the version of Gatsby that they want to see. We discovered very quickly on, it's impossible to please everyone when you do a Gatsby adaptation. So all you can do is make the version that you want to see. Which is the thing. Did we all made the version that we would want to see, that we would want to hear, and then we just hope enough people like it. And to your point, it's like amidst all the criticism, you know, people complained about, about Baz's interpretation, but it's like a wildly popular movie. And so it, it. There's actually something freeing in realizing that you can't please everybody. So all you can do is like, which is kind of how all art should sort of be made. Which is like, just make the art that you want to make.
- [70:20]
A
Yeah. And you know, if you hear criticism that you think is, you know, valid, even if it's not what you're trying to go for, you can always hold on to that for the next thing. That's sort of how it all works. But that's.
- [70:30]
B
But.
- [70:30]
A
Or, you know, you hear someone give criticism and even if they're very smart, you Go. You know, there's nothing here that I can hold on to. You know, despite how much. How well I think of you in your mind, nothing you're saying really is resonating with me. So. Bye, Felicia.
- [70:43]
B
We actually. We use some. You know, I will say, like, one of our biggest big critiques after Paper Mill was that people felt like that they missed Nick as sort of an audience paramour, as a narrator. Nick was not in the opening number in Paper Mill. Gatsby was in the opening number, actually, and Gatsby sang the lead vocal instead of Nick. And it was sort of. We were able to kill two birds with one stone because a lot of the critiques that we got was that, A, we miss sort of this being Nick's story, and B, that we sort of needed to lean into the mystery of Gatsby more. And by having him be in the opening number, just sort of singing and dancing and hanging out with everybody, that it kind of. It. It brought him down to earth a little too much, too quickly, and that we. We miss some of the allure and the mysteriousness that comes with who Gatsby is before he's fully revealed. So, like, we. And the writers took that criticism and really digested it. It. And made a really big shift. And now the show starts with Nick, and we took his speech that used to be at the end of the play, and he says. He now says some of it in the beginning of the play. And we created these bookends where Nick kind of starts and ends the show kind of in the same location and has the same look. And then we. Nick in the opening number, and we dealt with more of Nick's storytelling in the opening number. So that was like a. That was a critique that, like, the team heard and was like, you know what? Well, this is actually useful. Let's try. Let's try another version of it. And I think it's really. I think the show is for the better because of that.
- [72:15]
A
Absolutely. No, I. I love that. I don't. I mean, I don't think Gatsby shows up now for, like, 25 minutes into act one, something like that.
- [72:21]
B
Yeah. And it's a really, really hard thing to balance because, you know, Jeremy is. Jeremy and Eva are the two biggest names in the show, and they're the names on the. The poster in Times Square. And it's hard not having Jeremy show up. Up, you know, until 20 minutes, 25 minutes into the show. And, like, one of the things that we worked on so much was actually really economizing. Everything that comes before Gatsby's arrival because there's like a sweet spot between waiting long enough so he does feel mysterious and he's the thing. You know, it's the Wells Fargo wagon, right? It's the thing everyone's talking about. And then it finally shows up. So it's like you need. You need, like, just amount. Just. Just enough time to build the excitement, but you don't want to overstay your welcome and be like, where is the guy who is the reason I'm here to see the show? And so we spent so much time on those first 20 minutes of the show and cutting lines and economizing things and making sure that it was, like, everything you wanted and nothing extra to establish the world and establish these characters. But then let's get to Gatsby, because once Gatsby comes on, then the story kind of kicks into motion. He says, I want you to, you know, arrange a party so I can run into Daisy, and we're kind of off to the races. But before that, there is a little bit of marking time until Gatsby arrives. So that was. We probably worked more on that part of the show than on anything else.
- [73:42]
A
That's a very chemical musical theater instinct. E situation to be in, right? Like, you know, you. You read these stories all the time from, like, Jerome Robbins or Arthur Lawrence. They talk about, like, there's only a certain amount of minutes.
- [73:54]
B
It's.
- [73:54]
A
An audience is willing to sit with your story or for your plot point or anything like that, and you don't really know what the limit is until you start doing it and then you tinker with it. And I think that's a very, you know, an enviable position to be in. I don't. I don't ever want to be in a position where I'm like, oh, God, how long do I have until people get bored with me? So I do not envy you guys at all, but I absolutely commend you for. For getting in there and getting your hands dirty. There's not a lot of shows this season that have been willing to do the. The. The grunt work.
- [74:21]
B
So I. Yeah, he's wildly sort of mathematical. And again, I'm. I'm veering into topics that are. That are better suited to the writers. But, like, you know, every good musical has an I Want song from the protagonist, which is usually the first song after the opening number. And really, the I want song in this show is. Is for her, which is. Which is Gatsby singing about what he wants which is to win back Daisy. And we don't get that until Gatsby appears. And so, like, one of the things that, like, we worked on is like, how do you, how do you establish a character like that, who's. Who's real? I'm trying to remember back to my freshman year. I think Super Objective is the name of it. Like the thing that, the thing that that character wants, the thing that they're singing about, we don't hear about, you know, until 25 minutes into the show because of the structure of the show and that we don't meet Gatsby until then. And then again, he sort of kicks us off with, oh, this is, this is what the rest of the show is going to be about. And so there was, again, there's a lot of like, really sort of grunt work, mathematics about like, how long can a show sustain until we kind of hear what the person is after, which is why we're spending the rest of the night in the theater. So, so there is. Aside from like, what color the lights are, like, we have these really deep conversations too, just about, like, storytelling and maintaining an audience's attention and what we can ask of them and what we can hold back and what we can deliver it. So, yeah, I mean, putting together a new musical is wildly, wildly difficult and complicated and every permutation is sort of tried and considered and, and, and I like being a part of that. I know certain designers probably would be like, I'm good. I'm just going to do the sets and the lights and you guys figure out the script. But I love that. I love getting new script copies. And I would read things and Mark and I and Paul, we would talk about, like, script changes and what we, you know, our opinions on that because, because we're all dramaturgs. And the lighting, the lighting has to happen, help tell the story. And if I feel like that the story is unclear. I always say, like, lighting designers are real time dramaturgs because we have to light the show as we're teching it. So if you get to a moment in a show and I'm like, I don't know what, I don't know where we are or like, I don't, I don't know who to light in this moment. There's like seven things happening on stage and I don't know where we should be looking. That. That's like a big red flag, like, usually to the writing of, like, if, if me, the light designer, if I don't know how to tell this story in the moment, then it's not on the page and something is missing. And so I feel like the lighting designers are in a really unique opportunity to go to a director or go to a writer and say, I have a really clear vision up until this point. And we hit this moment and I don't know what story, I don't know what story that I'm supposed to be helping tell with the lighting. So can we, can we go back and look at this and actually figure out maybe. Because if it's not clear to me, it might not be clear to an audience either. So it's a. Lighting is sort of a really unique sort of straddling of like storytelling and then like technical stuff too.
- [77:13]
A
Absolutely. So, as you know, in your career as a lighting designer, can you recall a moment like that where it was a. I also love how like half an hour ago I was like, last question. And then you and I just went on a whole ride. But this is how we do. I'll make this the last question and then we'll wrap it up because we both have things to do today. But in your career as a lighting designer, can you recall maybe a moment where you did sort of have a hurdle that was especially difficult to overcome?
- [77:41]
B
God, I can't think of anything specific. I mean, there's been so many things, but I would just say, like, it, it almost always is about the transitions. And I will often say to a director, like, I don't know how to keep storytelling in this transition. The thing that obviously you sort of tried to avoid at all costs is just sort of like a straight out blackout out. Which, you know, sometimes there are reasons to do that. You got to hide things. You got to hide, you got to get things on, you got to get dead bodies off, you got to do stuff. But like, ideally you try to have as few blackouts as possible and you try to keep storytelling between scenes. And so often that involves figuring out what not to light in a transition and. And what to light. Because in film there's close ups and there's camera and the camera tells you where to look. And in theater there's lighting because the audience always has a wide shot all night long. And so the lighting is the lens, the lighting is what tells you where to look and how close or how wide the thing is that we're looking at. And so sometimes, like in a transition, I will say there's nothing for me to light in this transition. Can we, you know, can we do a dumb show which is like an old fashioned name for Sort of like a kind of a non spoken, a physical activity that might happen on stage that the audience can watch. And sometimes it's as silly as just like take some ensemble members, give them some briefcases and make them look like they're in a hurry and have them cross in one while we change the scenery behind them. But I feel like that I'm often. Because I'm the one lighting the transition and I'm trying to figure out like, well, we're trying to hide that. We're trying to hide that we don't want to see that there's actually nothing to light in this moment. I will often turn to the director and say, like, hey, what if we lingered the principle on longer? And instead of ending, instead of walking off at the end of their song, they end their song on stage and then we can follow them off while the set is changing behind them, things like that. So I often find those are the biggest challenges is keeping the storytelling going in the transition. And thankfully most directors are open to ideas like that. That. And going like, oh, if we brought them down on in one instead of in two, we could keep them lit and, and we could see them going to this other location and things like. So that. That's something I think a lot about.
- [80:03]
A
Okay, sorry, sorry. The moment you were finishing that answer, I got a text from my mom and I was like, why is she texting me? So I got a. So I meant to respond a lot.
- [80:12]
B
Does she have, does she have questions? Does she have any Gatsby questions?
- [80:16]
A
She has Spamalot questions. Actually, no, she's got Tick Tick Boom questions she wants to know about. Her question is the one that everyone's asking, which is, you know, is that one coming in? But I know we can't say anything about that right now.
- [80:27]
B
I'm pleading. I'm pleading the fifth on future Tick Tick Boom Productions.
- [80:31]
A
Okay. Andy Cohen. So, I mean, Corey, this has been fantastic. I hope you had as good a time as I did today.
- [80:37]
B
Yeah, it's great. I mean, as you can tell, I love, I love talking about what I do and getting in the weeds and I love Gatsby. It's. People say, like, what is your favorite show you've ever worked on? It's this. It's great Gatsby. I've spent over a year of my life on it. I believe wholeheartedly in this show. I love this team. I love this cast. If I had nothing to do with this show, I would be watching the same bootlegs that everyone else is. Don't don't, don't do bootlegs. I mean, but I would be. I would be listening to the same, like, songs. I would be watching the Green Light music video ten times. Like, I. I adore this show, and it just so happens that I get to be a part of it. But I think that's why it's so fun, is because they like it. It hits all my buttons in a. In a. In a musical. And so it kind of was, like, the perfect marriage of, like, person and material and people, and it's been. It's been a joy. And I'm actually going through, like, a tiny bit of withdrawal because we're frozen now and we're not in rehearsal. I saw a bunch of people, a bunch of us went to the cabaret opening last night and was already like, I miss you. And, you know, so, yeah, it's weird. It's like going through a little bit withdrawal. You work on something for, like, you know, a year and a half, and then it just. You just out in the world, and it's like, yeah, it's no longer yours anymore. And so now we have to see what happens. But thankfully, I hope this won't be the last iteration of this and. And we'll get to all get together in a room again and do it again. So we'll see.
- [81:56]
A
Absolutely. No, listen, that's phenomenal. And I'm. To be able to work on something that you love, that you love, you know, doing your profession that you love to do already, and then being on a project that you genuinely care about.
- [82:06]
B
About.
- [82:07]
A
That is the dream. It's not. Doesn't happen very often. So, you know, I am very jealous of you. There are so many things I've had to do in the last two years where I'm just like, I will put on my Fantine smile and let them do what they need to do.
- [82:19]
B
Exactly. Look, I did plenty of those shows to get to this point. And. And while I was doing those shows, I just kept telling myself, why are you doing this? Why are you working for these people, making this money? It's because you're you. You're working towards a goal. And the goal was to. To do musicals on Broadway and do new musicals on Broadway. And so it does kind of feel like, oh, okay, that was. That was all. Those little trips were worth it to end up at this finish line.
- [82:46]
A
Yeah, I think that's absolutely phenomenal. And I think you should be so proud of yourself and of your future. You've got so much going on now, and Coming up again, two shows in one season is nothing to sneeze at. And two big musicals at that, two very attention grabbing musicals at that. And then you've got Wonderful World in the fall, which is just fantastic. Anyway, I mean I had never seen your work until this season. I don't go to D.C. very often but now. And that's because we've gotten to know each other, Corey. But because I genuinely have enjoyed your work this season, I will be keeping an eye out for your name in any production team in a New York show in the future.
- [83:22]
B
Excellent. Thank you.
- [83:24]
A
Thanks for having me. I hope the listeners do. Thank you for coming on. Is there any place people can find you if you would like them to find you like online or anything like.
- [83:30]
B
That that you can follow me on Instagram? It's just my name, Corey Paddock. You can go to my website, corypatic.com I used to have a podcast which I haven't done in a couple years because I got a little busy but for about like seven years I had a podcast called In One which I might bring back where I, I interviewed designers. And if you're a designer or a student or interested in pursuing design, I encourage people to go listen to that because, because we did 106 episodes with like designers from all over the world and they're like these, they're like really, really long freewheeling conversations about design and a lot of Broadway names that people would recognize. So if you want to learn more about the kind of things I do and hear it from, you know, a bunch of other people, go check out in one podcast.com or wherever you get podcasts. And yeah, maybe we'll bring it back if I can muster up the energy to. I mean, you know, running a podcast and doing it is a lot of work and, and, and, and I am.
- [84:29]
A
Not as young as I used to.
- [84:31]
B
Be and, and, and during the pandemic I sort of was like, well, everyone in their, their Auntie Mame has a podcast and, and it doesn't feel special anymore. And so I sort of was like, I'm gonna take a break. And that was like a couple years ago. But I don't know, maybe I'll, maybe I'll come back now. Now there's like a lot of new and exciting people who I've met and you know, wanna chat with. So, so maybe we'll see. But in the meantime there's a huge archive, archive of hours and hours and hours of interviews for people to check out in one.
- [84:56]
A
It's Called in one.
- [84:57]
B
Called in one, yeah. And then if you want to see my stuff in person, like I said, Greg Gatsby is running on Broadway hopefully for a while. If you're on a cruise ship, if you're on the MSC Seashore, you can see I've still got some shows running on on msc. And then upcoming I'm doing Bye Bye Birdie at the Kennedy center with Chris Christian Borrell and Christa Rodriguez and an amazing cast that'll be at the Kennedy center in June and then nine at the Kennedy Center. And I can't tell you anybody who's involved, but it is a very cool shaping up to be a very cool production next to normal up at Barrington Stage later this summer. And then, yeah, wonderful world in the fall.
- [85:44]
A
Spamalot's going on tour, isn't it?
- [85:45]
B
Well, yeah, Spamalot will go on tour September, I believe September of 25. We'll be teching it and then it'll be coming to cities across the, across the country. And you know, fingers crossed, maybe, maybe Gatsby will has a tour in his future as well. Though I don't know how we're going to tour it, but we'll figure, look, if they figure out how to tour Moulin Rouge and Lion King and Wicked and Les Mis, I'm sure we can figure out how to tour Great Gatsby. But hopefully that might be something down the line that we can also have have across. So yeah, that's what's, that's what's kind of coming up.
- [86:17]
A
Totally fantastic. Well, if you want to follow me guys on social media, I am on Instagram only at Matt Koplik usual spelling. If you like the podcast you can give us a nice 5 star rating or review. I did. I'm recording the episodes this week, all out of order. So there are some episodes where I have read some of your reviews on and somewhere it seems like I haven't. I swear I'm reading them in the chronological order in which I'm recording, just not in which I'm am releasing all the episodes. So apologies if you're like, why did you not read my review, Matt? I did, I swear. So Corey, in post I will be inserting a little, you know, audio of a Broadway diva to sing us out. Is there a diva you would like to close out your episode for us?
- [86:58]
B
Oh my God, a diva. I mean Leslie Kritzer, I mean literally is sort of the diva of the season if you ask me. Literally nominated for a Drawn A League award mere hours ago and she's just the best. And I had a blast working with her. And she. She's my current favorite diva.
- [87:15]
A
Well, I mean, first of all, Leslie and Ava both nominated, and I don't think it's a coincidence that you lit both of them.
- [87:20]
B
I know. Yeah. You know, maybe I might take credit for it, but I mean, I mean, they're both divas, but literally, like, Leslie played divas in a good way, not in a bad way. They are both actually amazing, wonderful, kind, great people to work with. But like, obviously Leslie's character in Spamalot is like a big over the top diva, and she just crushed. Crushed it.
- [87:38]
A
Let's. Let's do it. I don't think there's any official recording of Leslie and Spamalot, so I will find a different thing. Leslie to play us out. But I am. But yeah, we'll do Leslie. That's phenomenal.
- [87:47]
B
Great.
- [87:48]
A
So join us guys for in a few days when we do the first of our two final predictions for Tony nominations, which come out on April 30th. Spoiler alert. Corey, I mentioned you in both episodes.
- [87:59]
B
Oh, you're very kind.
- [88:01]
A
And I didn't. As you know. I'm not kind because you, you. Because, you know. But I thought. But I will say the design of Gatsby was really beautiful and your lighting helped a lot. I'm not going up your ass when I talk to you about that red and blue moment, as you know, because everyone talks to you about that red and blue moment.
- [88:17]
B
I know. Also, Ken Billington always used to say, you need a red cue to get a Tony nom. And I don't have a full red cue. But. But that's the closest we get. So I don't know, maybe that'll count. I don't know where that logic. I don't know where that logic comes from, but he decided years ago, he said, you need a red cube. That's not why I put it there. But I did realize after the fact.
- [88:34]
A
I mean, I'll just say it got me gal. So that's it for now. We'll see you guys in in two days. And then actually for a few days after that because we got two between Thursday and Tuesday of the Tony nominations.
- [88:45]
B
Great.
- [88:46]
A
So take it away, Leslie.
- [88:47]
B
Bye. I'm the one before my mind about my new the reason now I know.
- [89:05]
A
I revive the highs and cherish the.
- [89:07]
B
Lows Know it It's a quick trip round the rod that's what I.