Broadway Breakdown — "CAROUSEL" w/ Juan A. Ramírez

Air Date: December 28, 2023
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Juan A. Ramírez (theater critic/writer: Theatrely, NY Times)

EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode of Broadway Breakdown dives deeply into Rodgers & Hammerstein's Carousel—long Matt Koplik’s favorite musical, and a show frequently debated for its problematic, or at least challenging, subject matter. Matt and critic Juan A. Ramírez go deep on Carousel’s reputation, its place in Broadway history, and the nuances of its narrative, with special attention to how different productions (especially the lauded 1994 Lincoln Center revival and the controversial 2018 revival) have shaped its legacy. The conversation is as passionate as it is explicit, brimming with musical theater nerdery, sharp cultural critique, and plenty of four-letter words.

KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Why Carousel? The “Problematic” Series

• The episode opens with Matt describing this series as tackling shows “you’re mad at”—the ones now labeled problematic for their dated or controversial attitudes (04:05).
• Matt: “I think it’s the most misunderstood…people blatantly ignore so many nuances in the material in favor of one line out of context” (04:37).
• Juan shares he was “born to talk about Carousel,” and they bond over researching every extant production before recording (05:24).

2. First Encounters & Personal Faves

• Juan recounts seeing his first Carousel during NYC Pride—recounting entering as a neophyte and being overwhelmed to tears by the score and performance, even if the production had flaws (07:40).
• Matt’s gateway was the movie, but his obsession was rooted in the 1994 Lincoln Center revival. He hails it as “the greatest thing to happen to Broadway since air conditioning” (04:02).
• Both remark on the intensity and sexuality of the 1994 production compared to subsequent ones (09:48, 18:26, 19:41).

3. Defining “Problematic” in Theater

• Matt: “There’s a difference between what a character says and does and what a show says and does. Just because one character says something doesn’t mean the show believes it” (05:12).
• Juan: “It’s not necessarily defending…I’ll say this for the show. I love the messiness…the unsettled feeling it gives me” (28:21).

4. Plot, Adaptation, and Themes

• Juan gives a comprehensive, irreverent plot summary (21:44–25:42): “The plot is set in a quaint fishing village...there’s a sexy carnival barker…they get to getting on in a lovely nine, ten minute bench sequence…”
• Discussion of Liliom, the source play, which Matt characterizes as “not about redemption” and much bleaker: “Molnar [the playwright] literally being like, toxic masculinity is a killer, people…Oscar Hammerstein was a bit more of an optimist…” (25:57–26:55).

5. The “Infamous Line” and Domestic Abuse

• They discuss the notorious line (from both Molnar and Hammerstein): Julie: “It is possible for someone to hit you—not hurt at all.” (28:55)
• Matt: “Carousel is about, ultimately, redemption...Billy at first denies the chance to go back. He’s told he’s not in heaven, he’s in the backyard of heaven” (29:30).
• The hosts are adamant the show doesn’t condone Billy’s abuse; rather, it’s about complicated emotional realities and longing for closure: “If the show condoned domestic violence, it would end with Billy alive, married to Julie...” (26:55).

6. 2018 vs. 1994: Modern Approaches

• Juan describes why he loved the 2018 revival (and Jesse Mueller as Julie), emphasizing the “cosmic fatality” and “horniness” (09:16).
• Matt critiques the 2018 revival for letting the actors be in “different versions of Carousel,” and for missing emotional intimacy (10:18), but credits Jesse Mueller’s subtlety and “wisdom in her eyes.”
• Detailed takedown of critiques, what each revival cut, and how different directors handled tone, sexuality, and class (10:58, 18:26, 19:45, 84:21).

7. Class, Setting, and Tennessee Williams in Maine

• Matt likens Carousel to “Tennessee Williams…these are working class, messy people” (14:39).
• The episode traces Hammerstein’s Americana worldview—how moving the story from Hungary to Maine made it resonate with American sensibilities and allowed for optimism rather than existential fatalism (51:56–52:46).

8. The Bench Scene and Song Structure

• Deep dive into the famous bench scene (“If I Loved You”), praising its unique non-duet structure: “Julian and Billy are never really on the same page…pride and stubbornness keep them from singing at the same time” (112:07).
• Matt: “It’s what they share…and what makes it so sexual and exciting. I’m not going first—you go first. You go first!” (112:09).
• Praise for the 94 staging and how staging choices can transform the meaning of a moment (89:39).

9. Supporting Roles and Sondheim’s Heir

• The richness of female supporting roles: "We have four, five if we count Louise, but I don’t totally...four female roles that are so vastly different and all insanely actable" (107:05).
• Audra McDonald’s legendary take on Carrie and the song “When The Children Are Asleep” are singled out for subverting “comedic fodder” and revealing the toxicity of acceptable relationships (107:23–109:06).

10. Performers, Casting, and What Makes a Great Billy & Julie

• Discussion of various Julies (Jessie Mueller, Kelli O’Hara, Sally Murphy), Billys (Michael Hayden, Josh Henry), and why “unknowns” often bring the best result (121:11, 121:53).
• The role requires acting over “booming” singing, and must capture both the sexual aggression and childlike vulnerability of Billy.
• Juan: “Who would you cast now?” Both struggle to name young performers, gravitating toward the idea that a new “unknowns” cast (as in 1994) would be best (115:44–121:22).

11. Sex & Horniness as Core Themes

• Both agree the show is “about death and sex drives”—"Lead with lust,” Juan says about how he'd direct (140:01).
• Matt: “Sex is weird…hot…confusing…sweaty…when you’re doing it, you’re like, no better feeling. And that’s Carousel” (158:02).

12. Modern Sensibilities, “Anthem Musicals,” and Why Carousel Endures

• Matt laments the current trend toward “anthem musicals” where every song is meant to validate the listener's worldview (94:31): “That’s not what Carousel is. And honestly, not what the best musicals are.”
• Both argue musicals need to be about “problems”—art isn’t just for comfort, it’s for complexity:
  • Juan: “Art should be about problems—of the heart, of the soul, of destiny. That’s what I want explored” (156:45).
  • Matt: “You need both. I don’t think Carousel is problematic—I think it’s about problems, and it’s uncomfortable” (156:57).

MEMORABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS

• Opening Salvo:
  “Censors? Fuck, no. I say cunt every five seconds. Hello, all you theater lovers, both out and proud and on the DL…” —Matt (00:42)
• “2018 was my introduction [to Carousel]…I did not stop crying from beginning to end.” —Juan (07:41)
• "2018 was my intro…Maybe I wasn’t a Joshua Henry fan…maybe it was just the Ben Brantley review—which is such a rave.” —Juan (07:14)
• "The 94 one is extraordinarily horny. When he straddles the horse head and has his fucking dick in her face, I’m like, that is this show in a nutshell. Literally.” —Matt (18:26)
• "Evita is a good musical? Find me the nuance in the lyrics of Evita.” —Matt (16:44)
• “If I Loved You is so fascinating because…Julia and Billy are never really on the same page…It’s what keeps them from singing at the same time.” —Matt (112:07)
• “Art should be problematic…not in the sense of ‘the book is bad,’ but because I want art to have more than one idea in its head…and the conflict is what drives it.” —Juan (157:03)
• "It feels very adult in that way. It fucks like a grown-up.” —Matt (158:01)

TIMESTAMPS FOR MAJOR SECTIONS

• Theme Introduction / Problematic Musicals Series: 04:05–05:24
• Personal Encounters — Falling in Love with CAROUSEL: 07:40–11:56
• Plot, Source, and ‘Liliom’ Origins: 21:44–25:57
• ‘The Line’: Domestic Violence, Condemnation, and Misunderstanding: 26:55–33:43
• Horniness/Sexual Energy in Staging: 09:48–10:15, 18:26, 140:01
• Revival Reviews—2018 vs. 1994 vs. Movie: 09:16–20:20, 84:21–85:41
• Bench Scene Deep Dive: 76:51–92:31; esp. 89:39–91:16 for the 94 version’s staging
• Songs, Supporting Characters, & Structure: 63:16–66:52, 107:23–110:08
• Casting: Now & Then: 121:11–125:18
• Carnival/The Merry-Go-Round of Life: 160:21–160:38

FINAL REFLECTIONS

Is Carousel “problematic”?

• Both Matt and Juan ultimately find the term inadequate and reductive. The show, they argue, is about messy, deeply human problems—abuse, trauma, sex, dissatisfaction, and the desperate hope for redemption. It’s uncomfortable, but essential.
• “I do not think it has aged poorly. I think, if anything, it has grown to give us opportunities to make it better.” —Juan (155:37)
• “It’s not Carousel’s fault that these people exist in the world.” —Matt (157:36)

CLOSING FUN

If they could restage Carousel?

• They’d cast unknowns (“Look at Steppenwolf, look at Juilliard,” 121:11).
• “Lead with lust, impulse, and the mess of being alive”—that’s the directorial line (140:01).
• Multiple ideas for immersive or site-specific stagings.
• What the hosts want most from the show: emotional honesty, sexual tension, and actors who can “bleed” onstage, not just sing beautifully.

Outro Song: Patti LuPone, “As Long as He Needs Me” (from Oliver!) — “She’s just yelling!” (163:17)

SUMMARY IN A SENTENCE

This episode is a bracing, affectionate, and delightfully filthy defense of Carousel as a messy masterpiece about lust, trauma, and redemption—arguing for musicals that reflect the real, often ugly, complications of human lives.

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