Broadway Breakdown Podcast Episode: "DEAR EVAN HANSEN (Part 1) & The Broadway Season" w/ Ruthie Fierberg

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Ruthie Fierberg
Date: December 21, 2023

Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown features host Matt Koplik and guest Ruthie Fierberg (veteran theater journalist and host of "Why We Theatre") for a double-header: a deep exploration of the musical "Dear Evan Hansen" (Part 1) and a state-of-the-season discussion of the 2023–24 Broadway year. True to the show’s reputation, the conversation is deeply opinionated, candid, and at times irreverent—diving into the heart, controversy, craft, and current trends on Broadway.

Main Theme: Why Is "Dear Evan Hansen" Seen as Problematic (or Not)?

(00:00–31:55)

Summary:
The first part unpacks why "Dear Evan Hansen" became viewed as "problematic," as well as personal connections to the show, how public perceptions shifted, and what the musical gets right (and wrong) in its treatment of heavy topics.

• What is "Dear Evan Hansen" About?
  (04:21–06:08)
  Ruthie summarizes the plot, emphasizing Evan's social anxiety, the inciting incident (Connor's suicide), the snowballing lie, and the show’s themes of adolescent grief, family, and community.

• Personal Connections to the Story:
  (06:12–10:41)
  Ruthie shares her own high school experience with the sudden deaths of classmates and how that shaped her empathy for the show’s characters.

  "I lived what the characters in this musical, in the high school of this musical lived like... how much right do I have to this grief? ... This musical felt like someone understood that and saw that and was telling the world that for the first time." (07:28–08:50, Ruthie Fierberg)

• Initial Reception & Buzz:
  (10:41–14:49)
  Both Matt and Ruthie reminisce about seeing "Dear Evan Hansen" in its early days—off-Broadway and in D.C.—noting the immediate critical and audience buzz, and how it was poised for groundbreaking mainstream success.

• Emotional Moments & Parent Perspectives:
  (14:49–16:20)
  Both recount which moments in the show "get" them emotionally, especially parental vulnerability:

  "There's nothing more powerful than when the parent or ... person who has been unable to feel cracks open and it floods them. And how could you not cry at that?" (15:19, Ruthie Fierberg, on Larry's breakdown in "You Will Be Found")

Problematic? Public Backlash and Morality in Art

(16:34–35:08)

Why the Backlash?
Matt and Ruthie break down how an initially beloved musical became the subject of harsh critique and "problematic" discourse.

• Timeline of Backlash:
  (21:12–27:30)

  • Shift in public mood around 2017 (post-Hamilton, during MeToo era).
  • Online discussions and podcasts misinterpret Evan as a sociopath; show viewed as justifying lying/manipulation.
  • Broader change in how audiences process "gray area" art.

• Addressing the Criticism:
  Ruthie’s stance is clear:

  "I fully stand by the opinion that the musical is not problematic, that the character Evan is problematic… But a musical about problematic people or things does not have to be, and in this case is not." (28:18–28:36, Ruthie Fierberg)

• Media & Movie Adaptation Effects:
  (31:55–39:04)
  Matt describes how the movie adaptation’s tweaks, aimed at neutralizing controversy, actually undercut the show’s complexity. Both agree that "Dear Evan Hansen" is most potent in its gray areas—not when simplified for mass consumption.

In-Depth Analysis: Art, Accountability, and Empathy

(39:04–58:18)

• Misunderstanding Thematic Intent:
  Audiences often conflate a character's perspective or an artist's intent with endorsement. Ruthie clarifies:

  "Telling a story and believing that a story has merit is not the same thing as condoning a person's actions... the telling of the story itself does not say this person is good, it says that this person is worth looking at." (41:00–41:51, Ruthie Fierberg)

• Gray Areas, Consequences, and Forgiveness:
  Evan’s actions are not unpunished—he loses everything:

  "But Evan does lose everything. There are consequences for him... And I do think that, spoiler alert, by the end of this musical, that is Evan's path. I think he takes responsibility and maybe it's not in the way everybody wants, but he doesn't just like get to go off gallivanting." (29:36–30:39, Ruthie Fierberg)

• Parents, Grief, and Healing (Focus on the Murphys and Heidi):
  (45:13–67:56)
  Both highlight the nuanced portrayals of grief, the complexity of family dynamics after loss, and the powerful parental moments—especially "So Big/So Small" and the layers in songs like "For Forever" and "To Break In a Glove."

The Music and Its Perceived Message

(73:22–78:33)

• "You Will Be Found" in Context:
  Its anthemic quality is not pure uplift; it carries tension for Evan:

  "For the rest of the company, it is 'You will be found.' For Evan, it’s 'You will be found out.' " (75:44, Matt Koplik)

• Songs Out of Context:
  The hosts discuss how hit songs (like "Waving Through a Window") get warped into feel-good anthems, masking their real dramatic function and complexity inside the show.

Conclusion: Ruthie’s Verdict

(78:34–79:00)

• Ruthie declares "Dear Evan Hansen" not problematic—at least, the stage show:

  "For those reasons, I deem this not—NOT a question—and not problematic." (73:14, Ruthie Fierberg)

Part two is promised for a future episode—potentially with a dissenting voice.

2023-24 Broadway Season: Trends, Transfers & Excitement

(79:02–134:42)

Key Points:

• Bustling Spring & Why Season Crowding is (Not) New:
  (79:00–86:35)
  Ruthie demystifies how spring season pile-ups happen and why Tony proximity isn’t the only factor.

• Trends:

  • Rise in new musicals with first-time Broadway composers (Ingrid Michaelson, PigPen, etc.)
  • A contemporary sound palette emerging from this cohort.
  • Not just jukebox musicals—more original stories or different adaptation spins ("The Outsiders," "Lempicka," "Suffs").
  • Surprising speed of some off-Broadway to Broadway transfers (e.g., "Hell’s Kitchen").

• Notable Revivals and New Shows:

  • "The Wiz," "Cabaret," "Tommy"—all major revivals with buzz
  • High-profile plays: "Prayer for the French Republic" ("three hours, feels like ninety minutes"), "Appropriate," "Uncle Vanya," "Doubt," "An Enemy of the People" ("Jamie Lloyd, Amy Herzog, Jeremy Strong—bring it on!")
  • Diverse, variable options for all tastes—more shows, more types, more reasons for all kinds of theatergoers to visit.

• What Excites the Panel?

  • Ruthie highlights her anticipation for new works, directorial innovations, and performances from established and new Broadway stars (Paul Alexander Nolan, Rachel McAdams, Marianne Plunkett, and more).
  • Both praise ensemble casts and under-recognized performers.
  • Special plug for "My Son's a Queer"—a hit in the UK centering queer joy in family dynamics.

• Advice for Audiences:

  • There really IS a play or musical for everyone.
  • Don’t give up on the art form after one miss—try something new for your taste.
  • Broadway isn’t just for “theater people”—it is as broad and varied as audience taste itself.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Ambiguity in Storytelling

"What happens when I start to feel for and understand why the person did the bad thing? …There’s also a difference between understanding and condoning."
— Ruthie Fierberg (41:42)

On the Season’s Variety

"…If you tell me that there is not a piece of theater for every single person out there in that list... [you’re wrong]."
— Ruthie Fierberg (127:59)

On “You Will Be Found”

“For the rest of the company, it is ‘You will be found.’ For Evan, it’s ‘You will be found out.’”
— Matt Koplik (75:44)

On Audiences and "Problematic" Stories

"The telling of the story itself does not say this person is good. It says that this person is worth looking at, and this idea is worth looking at."
— Ruthie Fierberg (41:00)

On Theater as Food

"When people say they don’t like theater or don’t like musicals, to me, it’s like saying you don’t like food. There’s so many different kinds of cuisines and recipes."
— Matt Koplik (128:46)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–06:08: Introduction & "Dear Evan Hansen" plot overview
• 06:08–10:41: Ruthie’s personal story and connection
• 14:49–16:20: Most moving emotional moments in the show
• 21:12–27:30: Timeline of critical backlash
• 28:18–31:55: Ruthie’s defense: the musical vs. the character
• 39:04–41:51: On empathy, understanding, and complexity in art
• 73:22–78:33: "You Will Be Found" and out-of-context marketing
• 79:02–110:57: Broadway spring season breakdown: trends, transfers, titles
• 110:58–127:59: Anticipated performances, talent, ensemble praise
• 127:59–133:57: On theater for everyone, audience recommendations
• 133:57–End: Outro, plugs, and “Who’s the Diva?” (Shoshana Bean)

Final Word

This episode is a robust, passionate defense of "Dear Evan Hansen" as a nuanced piece of theater—not a black-and-white "problematic" text—alongside a sweeping tableau of the current (and future) Broadway landscape. Koplik and Fierberg’s blend of critical insight, lived experience, and unapologetic theater geekery makes for a lively, illuminating episode for anyone—fan or skeptic—of contemporary musical theater.

Diva Selection for Outro:
Shoshana Bean (“...And I'm gonna end it with a button of her throwing spaghetti on a plate like she does in Hell's Kitchen.” [133:57, Matt Koplik])

For further news, commentary, and recommendations:

• Follow Ruthie Fierberg (@RuthieFierberg) on Instagram or visit ruthiefierberg.com.
• Read her work at broadwaynews.com.
• Follow Matt Koplik (@tcoplik) on Instagram.