Deep Dive: NEXT TO NORMAL w/ Brian Nash

Summary

Broadway Breakdown – Deep Dive: NEXT TO NORMAL w/ Brian Nash

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Brian Nash (music director, pianist, Broadway aficionado)
Release Date: July 30, 2026

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Overview

In this final episode before hiatus, host Matt Koplik welcomes longtime friend and music director Brian Nash to dive deep into the groundbreaking musical Next to Normal (music by Tom Kitt, book/lyrics by Brian Yorkey). Together, they trace the show’s development, examine its challenging themes of mental illness and family trauma, and compare the original Broadway production to the critically acclaimed London revival/pro-shot. True to the podcast’s reputation, the conversation is candid, passionate, and full of both deep insights and irreverence.

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Main Themes and Episode Structure

• The journey and impact of Next to Normal: From workshops and infamous changes to its Pulitzer-winning run and legacy
• Mental health on stage: Depictions of bipolar disorder, grief, therapy, and ECT
• Character deep-dives: Especially Diana ("the woman who's fucking nuts"), Gabe (the ghost twink), Dan and Natalie
• Fandom and legacy: Next to Normal’s intense fandom and effect on modern musical theatre
• Pro shot analysis: Comparing Broadway and London stagecraft, direction, and performances
• Casting fantasies & vocal takes: Imagined Dianes, performer comparisons, and the necessity of both emotional rawness and healthy technique

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins and Development of Next to Normal

[06:10–10:00]

• Matt recalls reading Variety reviews and early buzz about the show (originally titled Feeling Electric).
• Brian's first exposure: On a 2006 Rosie O’Donnell cruise, where Alice Ripley sang “I Miss the Mountains” from the show—then still a work-in-progress.
• Discussion of the unusual journey: Instead of going straight to Broadway from Off-Broadway, the show went out-of-town to Arena Stage in DC, where major revisions led to its true final form.

“The changes that they made between Off-Broadway and Arena Stage were remarkable. That is a pure lesson in go ahead and kill your darlings.”
– Brian Nash ([21:12])

2. Musical Tone Shifts: From Satire to Tragedy

[24:00–28:30]

• Feeling Electric was originally more satirical and comic, which did not fit the material’s gravity.
• Songs like “More, More, More” (Diana’s breakdown at Costco) were cut to better match the show’s darker emotional palette. The importance of moving away from “irony-laden” tunes to real emotion and complexity.

“They made actual changes. This wasn’t like, ‘oh, we cut a line here.’ No—they fucking cut songs. They added songs. They rewrote whole lyrics to songs.”
– Matt Koplik ([22:48])

3. Fan Culture and the Show's “Dangerous Identification”

[13:44–17:30]

• Discussing the show’s fervent, sometimes unhealthy fandom—drawing comparisons to Spring Awakening and Tori Amos’s fan base.
• The risks of parasocial relationships with performers, especially with material resonating for people struggling with mental health or family trauma.

“It is unsurprising to me that the fandom of a musical about a woman with bipolar disorder and suicidal tendencies is going to be pretty intense.”
– Brian Nash ([14:36])

4. Diana Goodman & Family: Character Analysis

[18:44–20:28, 34:38–38:31]

• Diana is introduced as “Mom rushes to pour cereal” — yet everything in their “normal family” is a facade; opening number quickly reveals her mental state.
• MTI’s marketing description (“Dad’s an architect…”) is lampooned. The musical’s device of using family “archetypes” only to puncture them.
• Subtle changes in the musical’s opening—from starting with “Light” in Off-Broadway to “Just Another Day” on Broadway for a faster immersion into the story.

5. Gabe the Ghost Twink: Meaning and Performance

[36:12–44:04]

• The character of Gabe, the family’s dead son imagined as a living teenager, is examined as a manifestation of trauma and grief.
• Broadway: Gabe is played as a malevolent, almost evil presence (Aaron Tveit/Kyle Dean Massey).
• London: Jack Wolfe portrays a sadder, more ghostly figure—less a villain, more a symbol shaped by each family member’s psyche.
• The “twist” and its effect: Instead of a literal demon, Gabe is a “theatrical device”—his presence and behavior reflect each character’s unresolved feelings.

“He acts to each character how they feel about him. ...he's not actually in control. He is domineering and mean-spirited to Natalie because that's how she's kind of feeling about that presence, comforting to Diana...”
– Matt Koplik ([40:19])

6. Next to Normal’s Score: Favorites and Critiques

[29:46–33:36]

• Favorite songs: “I Am the One,” “You Don’t Know,” integrated musical sequences.
• Praise for Tom Kitt’s complex musical writing: e.g., “Superboy and the Invisible Girl” in 11/8 meter.
• Critique: “Song of Forgetting” flagged as “gently on the nose” and in need of rewriting.
• Applause-breaks and showstopper moments (“I Miss the Mountains,” etc.) discussed.

7. ECT, Medical Accuracy, and Dramatic License

[17:30, 96:48–98:52]

• The show’s depiction of ECT (electroconvulsive therapy) for mental illness: reality vs. dramatic needs.
• Real ECT most often causes only temporary, not decades-long, amnesia (as in Diana’s case). But the show uses selective amnesia to theatrical effect.
• Some perceived stigma against ECT in the show, but Matt and Brian argue it also depicts the treatment as genuinely effective in helping Diana reach a new point of clarity.

“She does end the show in a better place than she was. And I don't think it’s in spite of the ECT—I do think it actually helped.”
– Matt Koplik ([97:41])

8. Dan Goodman: Villain or Tragic Partner?

[98:52–103:56]

• Dan as an emblem of “denial”—just trying to keep everyone afloat, not a villain.
• The arc of Dan’s relationship with Diana and his struggle to let himself feel and grieve.

“He is just trying to get through and if we're going with the theory of everyone being a representation of different ways to deal with grief, yes, he is in denial and he's going to try to get through this and make things okay for her.”
– Brian Nash ([102:07])

9. Natalie: Perfectionism, Rage, and Hope

[51:01–54:53]

• Natalie’s coping mechanisms (perfection, overachieving) and the show’s improvement in deepening her characterization post-second stage.
• Discussion on child actors, teenage relationships, and the mother-daughter dynamic—broken at times, but ending with new understanding.

10. London Revival vs. Broadway: Performances and Direction

[73:32–86:17]

• Both hosts express newfound love and respect after seeing the pro shot of the London production.
• Casey Levy’s Diana is called “devastating… incredible,” with a nuanced, healthy vocal approach and “raw” acting.
• Jack Wolfe’s Gabe is more multidimensional than Broadway’s, especially in his final moments.
• Some quibbles: Overuse of the onstage band, some camera choices, and the finale staging (“Light”) feeling less specific and more generic than Broadway’s ending.

“The amount of emotion that that production has is astounding… I think Casey has that right balance. Alice had a really strong balance early in the run. But I agree, I think as it got further along, things started to fall off the rails.”
– Matt Koplik ([120:20])

11. Legacy and Afterlife

[137:05–140:49]

• Next to Normal is seen as a watershed for rock-influenced musicals and complex family drama on Broadway.
• While the score and impact are immense, the careers of its creators (Kitt & Yorkey) post-N2N are viewed as uneven.
• Broadway’s fanbase and the newer “pro-shot-driven” generation are fueling a new wave of appreciation for the show.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Cutting from Off-Broadway to Arena:
  “That is just a pure lesson in go ahead and kill your darlings.”
  – Brian Nash ([21:12])

• On the Original Fandom:
  “I want to do this [theatre] one day… I can't do that and fucking stalk Jennifer Damiano. That's not who I am.”
  – Matt Koplik ([15:10])

• On Gabe’s Function:
  “He is challenging to describe... He's kind of fucking evil in the original production. …In the London production that kid was so sad and just trying to come back.”
  – Brian Nash ([38:31])

• On Dan:
  “As someone who's been in a long term relationship with someone who had some undiagnosed severe mental health issues… you're just trying to get through that day and trying to make them okay in any way that you can.”
  – Brian Nash ([102:07])

• On Casey Levy as Diana (London pro shot):
  “God, I thought she was absolutely devastating in it. I thought she was incredible. It was such a good match. My only little quibble with it is ‘I Miss the Mountains’—a little too big.”
  – Brian Nash ([82:10])

• On community and the need for support in productions:
  “You need an intimacy coordinator and you need a therapist on set.”
  – Matt Koplik ([143:10])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:07 – Mockery of the MTI description; “Dad’s an architect...”
• 08:44 – Brian’s Rosie cruise, Alice Ripley story
• 12:48 – Matt’s first encounter, reaction to seeing Alice Ripley’s “death glare”
• 17:30 – On audience reactions, backlash, and mental health portrayal
• 24:04 – Show’s origin as Feeling Electric and key song “More, More, More”
• 29:46 – Favorite songs & structure; “I Am the One;” praise for Kitt’s score
• 38:31 – Gabe’s nature (as ghost, trauma, malevolence); London vs. Broadway portrayals
• 51:01 – How Natalie’s character was deepened for empathy
• 73:32 – London pro shot, Casey Levy’s performance, and direct comparison to Broadway
• 97:41 – ECT, realism, and the show’s message about therapy/treatments
• 102:07 – Understanding Dan, personal stories of caretaking for a partner
• 143:10 – “If you’re going to do Next to Normal, cast actors. Marking won’t cut it.”
• 146:24 – Diva close out: “Let’s go back to workshop Diana Goodman and go back to Sheri René Scott, always.”

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Noteworthy Side Tangents

• Dream casting other famous Broadway women (Patti LuPone, Heather Headley) as Diana Goodman
• The effect of the “onstage band” trend and why it sometimes distracts from storytelling
• “Muppet Next to Normal”—which character would be the only human?
• The musical’s ambiguous setting: is the Goodman family in the suburbs of Seattle? Portland? The universal “nowhere”?

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Final Thoughts

Matt and Brian end on the importance of creators “leaning in” to deep topics, the need for both emotional honesty and supported, healthy singing, and a plea for productions to supply both therapy and comic leavening.

“If you’re writing a musical about deep, deep things, lean the fuck in.”
– Brian Nash ([143:10])

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For Listeners New and Old

This episode is both a loving, wry roast and a passionate defense of Next to Normal, packed with inside-theatre jokes, sharp observations, and a sincere appreciation for art that pushes boundaries. The conversation highlights the show’s relevance for new audiences, the importance of evolving theatre practice, and (as always) the need for a little joy amid the darkness.

Suggested diva close-out track: Sheri René Scott – “Poor Unfortunate Souls”

Transcript

[Brian Nash]

Foreign.

[Matt Kopf]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Kopf. Like the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And this is our last deep dive before the podcast goes on a hiatus for a while. I'm so sorry. But with us today is a friend of the pod. He has not been on in such a long time due to his busy, busy schedule and honestly not finding a show worthy of his brain until now. So please welcome back Mr. Brian Nash. Hi, Brian.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, hi, Matt. How are you?

[Matt Kopf]

I'm great. It's so good to see your dumb, dumb gay face.

[Brian Nash]

Ugh. It is gay and it is dumb and it is jet lagged as shit, but that's fine.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, I wasn't gonna say anything because then you would have to say something about how I look right now.

[Brian Nash]

This lighting is homophobic. I am sitting basically directly in a sunbeam that is making everything look so gray. Mm, girl, it's a lot.

[Matt Kopf]

You look very distinguished.

[Brian Nash]

Sure, we'll say that.

[Matt Kopf]

We haven't had you on in almost four years. That's terrifying because I know, because you were on for the Hamilton episode which we recorded in November of 2022.

[Brian Nash]

Why do you remember that date, Matt?

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, Brian. Yeah, I think I mentioned this on the pod a little bit, but yeah, we can. Without giving too much away, we'll just say if you guys ever want to debate just how much energy I put up. The day that Brian and I recorded the Hamilton episode, I was extremely going through it. And if you want to re. Listen to it and try to clock any. Any moments, then maybe I'm going through it. I don't think you can tell I put up a really good front. The only thing is that my mom comes in in the middle of recording to give me food. And that wasn't her being like, sorry to interrupt, I'm your mother. It was genuinely. I had not eaten for 24 hours and she was like, you have a friend in front of you. You're on a microphone. I will listen back to the audio and know if you at.

[Brian Nash]

So the Hamilton episode, which is also very, very long.

[Matt Kopf]

Yes.

[Brian Nash]

Matt is putting on the bravest of faces, borderline in tears for half of it and housing French toast.

[Matt Kopf]

Pretty much. Yeah. Which is honestly perfect for the episode we're talking about today. But yeah, and I probably will connect it a little bit to that time. I think I told you everything, like, right before you went on mic and just, like seeing your face go gaunt. And then I'm like, okay, so Skylar sisters. And you're like,

[Brian Nash]

sure. Are we still talking about Burn? Are we doing. Are we talking about that song or are we just skipping it? Let's just skip it.

[Matt Kopf]

We're skipping it. But, yeah, we're.

[Brian Nash]

This is Will be.

[Matt Kopf]

I think this will be what is ultimately a more intense show, but I think we're both in a lighter place

[Brian Nash]

for it, so I sincerely fucking hope so. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

But, Brian, what are we talking about today?

[Brian Nash]

We are talking about Next Two Normals, which is a musical by Tom Kitt and Brian Yorkey. Broadway season 08. 08.

[Matt Kopf]

09. Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

08 to 09 season. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. I will do more of the deep dive on that in just a second. Before we do any of that, I have two major things I have to do. One is a new review that we got on Apple Podcasts, so please cue the light in the Piazza Overture. Five stars. You're a star, Matt. There's a comma there I can't get enough of. Broadway Breakdown. Thank you for all the theatrical insight you share and for the labor of love that is podcasting. I credit you with my Tony ballot prediction win in. Bless you for that. You're welcome. So remember, guys, when it comes to Tony time, this is the key podcast to listen to. If you want to get a good ballot in your Tony party, you should get a cut. You know what she can do? She can join the Patreon, the Broadway breakdown green room, $5 a month. This is a great time to remind you all.

[Brian Nash]

See, that's the thing, like, if you. You should do a Patreon, like a paywall thing where you house the Toni predictions behind that.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, we're. The Patreon is very brand new. She's. She's a little old baby right now. She's younger than Gabe was when he died. And so spoiler, spoiler for. I guess now's a good time to say spoilers for next to normal, but sure, yeah. As the Patreon continues, we're figuring out more of, like, just how much content will be on there and what will be excluded from the main feed. At the moment, what we're doing is just episodes early and then two exclusive episodes a month. One is a cast party Q and A with me, and the other is our Green Room roundtable where we do rankings, which you know about because you contributed to that one, and then the one after that is going to be best Actress in a musical, Tony. Fantasy league or fantasy draft. So, yeah, gonna be certain categories, and everybody's gonna make their picks. It's gonna be so faggy, but it's gonna be delicious.

[Brian Nash]

God damn it. Matt. Yeah. I think.

[Matt Kopf]

I think I want you. I want to make sure you're there for that one.

[Brian Nash]

Gay. Yes. Yes.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, because you're gonna have some choices.

[Brian Nash]

And I love it, certainly. I always do.

[Matt Kopf]

But also, last thing. Big, big, big news. As of a week and a half ago, I am officially a voter for the Drama Desk Awards.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, God help us all.

[Matt Kopf]

Listen, the establishment needs my taste. It really does. If you were underwhelmed by some of the winners at the Tonys this year, at some of the Dramatis winners, guess who's coming in to shake shit up. Me and Jennifer Ashley Tepper. But the. I think the two of us combined are enough to really make things, you know, shake the system a bit.

[Brian Nash]

Uh, did they only allow the two of you in, or were there more?

[Matt Kopf]

I think there were more. I just. I just know she was. Anyway. So next to normal.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Kopf]

So next to normal for the uncultured fucks.

[Brian Nash]

This is.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay. This is via mti. They who license the show. They write, dad's an architect. Mom rushes to pack lunches and pour cereal. Their daughter and son are bright, wisecracking teens appearing to be a typical American family. And yet their lives are anything but normal. Not even next to normal because the mother has been battling bipolar disorder for 16 years. Next normal takes audiences into the minds and hearts of each character, presenting their family story with love, sympathy, and heart. I mean, it's not totally an inaccurate description, but it is an interesting way to open.

[Brian Nash]

What in the CW sitcom is this? What the fuck? Yeah, Dad's an art. Also, leading with Dan is really a choice. Dad's an architect, is he? Do we ever see him at work? Is that ever mentioned? Not once.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, because she keeps taking him away from work.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, the only time is, like, when she talks about them both being undergrads. Yeah, that is literally the only time. And it's like, I thought I'd be too busy. That's it. That is the only time architecture is ever mentioned.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, it's a vibe to open with that. But, like, there are no lies necessarily in all of that. It's just. It's a weird way to word it all. So, Brian, how did Next Normal enter your chat?

[Brian Nash]

Next to normal entered my chat in a very weird way. Okay, picture it. 2006, maybe I was on a gay family. Rosie O' Donnell Cruise.

[Matt Kopf]

That is a 2006 sentence.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, pretty much. And as was typical of the. The company was called Our Family, so it was for, like, gays and lesbians and their multiethnic babies. This was very cute. And because it was Rosie involved and kind of spearheading it, there were so many Broadway folk on board. So 2006, that particular CRU, Alice Ripley and Emily Skinner were doing like a late night cabaret in the lounge.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay.

[Brian Nash]

Skinner had just done workshops of Little Mermaid. So she had. She did Poor Unfortunate Souls, which was great. Alice did a number from, like, this show she'd just done a reading of that was hoping to come to Broadway that I think was still being called Phelan Electric at that point.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

So. And I think think I clearly don't have like a recording of it, but I think she did. I miss the mountains. That's kind of what I remember. And I'm like, oh, that's cool, that's cute. And then my boyfriend at the time proposed to me later that evening on the front of the ship and I felt cornered and I said yes, even though I didn't want to.

[Matt Kopf]

And I oop, okay.

[Brian Nash]

And I oop. So that is the first time I heard anything from the next to Normals and then saw the. I didn't see it off Broadway. I saw the Transfer, so I saw original cast. And then I saw When Brian went in. And that's it for the Broadway production. And then we'll get into later stuff later on. How did it enter your chat, Matt?

[Matt Kopf]

Well, Brian, thank you for asking. As you know, I am a theater fan. Shocking. But I had been so from an early age and, like, even as a kid was like, interested in the business side of stuff. Would read the grosses, would read the trades. Like, my D gotten me a weekly subscription to Variety because I was so annoying about it. And my first knowledge of Next to Normal was a review in Variety for the second stage production, which had a photo of Alice Ripley holding the birthday cake and Brian Darcy James next to her. And a lot of reviews were very big about, like, don't spoil the show. Don't spoil the show. And unfortunately, like, you can't really talk about the show without spoiling it.

[Brian Nash]

It's.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, it's one of those things where it is a great twist and it's done early enough. But it does make it difficult to talk about the show with people who don't know it because you're like. To talk about the themes and not undersell it. You have to Talk about what the themes are tied to. Anyway, so the review was, like, a little vague, and it was talking about how, like, there was a show there, but it just. It didn't work yet. And it was, you know, a genuine rock musical. And Spring Awakening had just come out, so everyone was like, oh, this might be, like, the next Spring Awakening show. There was a feeling that they could transfer it to Broadway that same season, because, you know, in the Heights and Passing Strange are obviously going to be, like, the critical darlings, but no one really thought that Xanadu was going to do well. That sort of surprised people, and everyone was sort of like, you know, crybaby who? And When. But Next to Normal ended up not doing that. So Crybaby became the fourth Tony nominee. And so the big thing with Next Normal that was surprising that I remember everyone was talking about in the trades was it was the first off Broadway show that had buzz that rather than go to Broadway, went out of town and then to Broadway. It was sort of like a switcheroo that didn't really happen before. And so it was this really interesting thing of they go to arena the following fall, and it comes to Broadway, and then it just, like, blows up the way that it did. So I saw it on Broadway, and I remembered being a little whelmed by it at the time. I was in the front row. It was right after it had opened, and I. I just wasn't super taken with it. And I. I'm a very big proponent of, like, I only stand when I'm really feeling like I. I saw something that hit me, and so I didn't stand. I applauded. I was. I looked up. I sp. And I was at the front row. So, like, Alice Ripley saw me, and she abso. Like, gave me a death glare. And it's. It's one of my. It's one of my prouder moments, and I kind of put it away. I have bought into it a lot more since then, and it's primarily due to a specific production that got a pro shot recently, and we'll talk about that a little bit. But I think it. It's sort of the interesting thing for me of this pro shot has not only revitalized the show's relevance, but has created, like, an even more fervent fan base than the first time around. Because the first time around, it was an intense fan base, uh, and was maybe, along with Spring Awakening, like, an early indicator of, like, the parasocial relationships that fans and actors had to, like, maneuver. Like. Yeah, yeah. And So I also. I think I also stayed clear of the show because even though I. In addition to not loving it, I just didn't like the vibe of the fandom. But anyway, yeah, so that's my.

[Brian Nash]

That's.

[Matt Kopf]

That's my whole history with Next to Normal. So when you got to see it on the Bridway.

[Brian Nash]

Mm.

[Matt Kopf]

What was your feeling?

[Brian Nash]

I loved it. I thought it was gorgeous. I thought it was devastating. I loved the performances. I thought the staging was pretty incredible. It took a friend who got obsessed with it. He saw it, I think, seven times in various permutations of the cast. And so I really. I love a rock musical. I am a rent girly from way back. I fully slept out on the street several times to see that damn show, including in a Chicago winter to see Anthony Rapp in it.

[Matt Kopf]

You are those who don't understand. Brian is a dedicated person.

[Brian Nash]

I see things.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, anyone who follows you on Instagram, and if you don't do it now, you'll know that this is a boy who follows Tori Amos around everywhere.

[Brian Nash]

Well, okay, so we can discuss that as well. So I am. I was unfamiliar with the parasocial fandom of Next to Normal just because I wasn't really in. I wasn't about the message boards or anything at that point. I'd kind of, like, ducked out of that. And so I didn't know how bad it had gotten. But if, you know, Tori Amos, that is also an angsty, angsty fan base. And people who tend to kind of tap into deeply emotional subject matter that tackles some, you know, pretty intense topics knows that that fan base is going to kind of glom onto the person who's creating that in a very intense way. So it is unsurprising to me that the fandom of a musical about a woman with bipolar disorder and suicidal tendencies is going to be pretty intense.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, it got very bad that. That and Spring Awakening are the two fan bases of my youth that I just remember getting so turned off by and I think were instrumental to me as a teenager of making sure I didn't become that. I. Cause a lot of those were people I knew who were acting that kind of way. I just didn't like that kind of energy. I remember thinking to myself, I want to do this one day. Or at least I want to be a part of this world one day. I can't do that and fucking stalk Jennifer Damiano. Like, I'm not. That's not who I am.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

And also, I don't desire to know what fucking yogurt shop Aaron Tveit goes to on Wednesdays. Like, who cares? Who the fuck cares? Yeah, so that was always my thing that I think also, like, kind of kept me away from him. But, yeah, shows like Next Normal, these shows that seem to be about the underdog in some respect, that deal with isolation and depression and loneliness and this idea of being on the edge and almost going too far, but finding your way back, the people who struggle with those things every day are always looking for some sort of connection, some sort of identification, and when they find it in some way with shows like these, it is easy for that passion to go too far. And especially in the early Wild west days of social media, because at that point, it was just basically Facebook and Twitter and YouTube sort of. People were, like, doing, like, vlogs and whatnot.

[Brian Nash]

Look, when it's the. The Newsies fan base, like, that's a fan base who, like, loves this show and loves these performers because they're adorable twinks who can do jump splits. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

That's how we have Outsiders and Lost Boys now.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, Seriously, it's. It's just Newsies, you know, in, you know, different pants and slightly different hats occasionally and.

[Matt Kopf]

And slightly different teeth now.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, those. You know, the Twinks know they need to be Instagram ready now, but having a fan base that's seeing themselves reflected in a woman who is literally fucking nuts is going to be a slightly more intense and maybe dangerous fan base.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. I also find stories about families are triggering and fodder for a lot of people, which is not to diminish the genuine joy that this show brings to a lot of people. As I said, I have found my corner of joy with it now. But, yeah, for me, it's always been the piece itself is what gives me the joy, not necessarily the people. Sometimes I really love a performance and I gravitate towards that, but then again, it becomes like, I really love the craft, I don't love the person. But, you know, there are plenty of performers I've met now where I'm like, oh, yeah, you're so talented. Oh, I met you now. Yeah, we don't have to do that part again, but I'll see you and stuff.

[Brian Nash]

But hey, yeah, hey, hey, hey.

[Matt Kopf]

But, yeah, but I think we'll start diving into, like, the actual material of the show now. But this is. We're kind of tiptoeing around the subject just because in order to talk about the material itself, we also kind of have to talk about the effect it has on audiences. And, you know, it Also always comes with a bit of backlash in terms of how it portrays mental health and how it portrays therapy and ect. And I did some research on my own yesterday, not to sound like a Long island mom who's like, I did my research on vaccines, and here's what the Internet told me. But I wanted to sort of see, like, you know, okay, what. How is ECT practice today? What is the, you know, medical community's feeling on it? What is the backlash of it? Why do people feel a certain kind of way? And xyz. And then I read some essays about Next to Normal and its relationship with ECT. And there are also a lot of YouTubers now because the pro shot is out of people saying, you know, I'm doing my reaction to Next Normal and telling you the things that gets right, things that doesn't get right, as a person who has bipolar, somebody who has ptsd, things like that. So I thought it's. I like having all this information out there. The problem is, is, like, it's up to you to filter it, which is fucking scary and dangerous. But, yeah, we'll.

[Brian Nash]

We'll.

[Matt Kopf]

We'll talk some more about it. So speaking of the woman who's fucking nuts, leading character is Ms. Diana Goodman.

[Brian Nash]

Yes. Mm. Yes. Dear, dear Diana Goodman. She has been through it.

[Matt Kopf]

I love musicals about women named Diana.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, that's it. That's the mashup we need. Just the entire show, just combine them.

[Matt Kopf]

Absolutely. Just do the entire plot of Diana Goodman. But it's to the score of diana.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. So Dr. Madden, like, when he emerges as the rock star, comes up as James Hewitt on the pony.

[Matt Kopf]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Duh. Duh.

[Matt Kopf]

I love it. I love it, I love it. So who is she? What's her life? What's her story? Who is she? When we meet her, where is she at?

[Brian Nash]

So we meet her as the MTI description as a typical suburban mom, Poor Sandy. And she's making sandwiches on the floor. So, yeah, they try to set it up as, like, yeah, we're the perfect loving family. And then she starts to have a gentle mental break throughout the opening number and finally ends it on the floor making a pile of sandwiches.

[Matt Kopf]

And we were introduced to the rest of the family throughout the number, because when the number begins, it's three in the morning and her son has come home late. And through that, people start weaving in and out. The son goes to his room, the husband comes out. She says, I'm gonna fuck you in five minutes. And so they do that. And then she. We meet the Teenage daughter who's younger than the son, and she's, you know, very smart, but she's manic and clearly on the edge of a breakdown as well. And everyone's just sort of trying to get through the day. Just another day, they say.

[Brian Nash]

Typical opening number, but with a twist, which in. At Second Stage, they opened with Light, which is now the closing number of the show.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, the show used to bookend with those songs.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Which I had forgotten about because I actually texted Charlie Alterman, who was the MD of the Off Broadway and Broadway productions and Kennedy center, and I was like, okay, so that theme that comes in at the very top of the prologue, was there a name for it? Because every time that theme comes back, it feels like it means something, and I can't really clock what it is. He's like, it's really just the vamp from Light that we just liked and we kind of kept in there. So that vocal is always there in my mind, Even though we cut the vocal from the top of the show. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Which they said that they did to just dive into the show faster. Because with Light, when it opened Off Broadway, it wasn't anything plot driven. It was. God damn it. I was gonna sneeze.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, damn.

[Matt Kopf]

God damn it.

[Brian Nash]

Fuck you.

[Matt Kopf]

Next to normal. I wanted to sneeze. But it was. It was just Dan and Natalie and Diana, like, they were all just singing Light, sort of in different pools. And then it went into Gabe showing up late in the night, and so they just cut all that and went straight into Gabe showing up early, which I think is correct. Like, just to quote Diana, dive in with both feet.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep. It's a. It's a very good move. The. The changes that they made between Off Broadway and Arena Stage were remarkable. Like, that is just a pure lesson in go ahead and kill your darlings.

[Matt Kopf]

Speaking of Gunkle, Adam Ellsbury, he did see it off Broadway, and then I think he said he saw the very first Broadway preview, or maybe it was the second Broadway preview. Something like that.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

And he had liked it at Second Stage, but similar to the critics, he was like, there's stuff here that needs to go. And he told me the feeling he had watching act one just going like, oh, they. They fixed it. They. They got it. And he just had that feeling for the rest of the show, which is. That's a very exciting feeling to see a show that you enjoy but know that the potential hasn't been met. And then seeing it again. And they met it because, like, they. As Brian was saying, like, they made actual changes. This wasn't like a. Oh, we cut a line here. We moved some stuff around. Like, no, they fucking cut songs. They added songs. They rewrote whole lyrics to songs. It's. They.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, it's. And I kind of felt that when I saw Dear Evan Hansen at second stage, and I'm like, oh, okay, this is in good shape. But, you know, there will definitely make some changes. That Sincerely Me song has got to go.

[Matt Kopf]

Boo. And yet.

[Brian Nash]

And yet. And yet. Like, why does everyone try to write teenage boys that way? Okay, yeah, but, like, how many times

[Matt Kopf]

have we seen this happen with shows where we're like, oh, that's clearly a booger. Get her out of here. And it just stays. It just stays. I don't know why. Like, they understood. It took them so long to realize that, like, Costco, the song where Diana has a breakdown at Costco, had to go because the show had been in development for a decade by that point. And it took second stage for them to go, oh, this needs to get cut.

[Brian Nash]

Well, interestingly, like, the. It felt like the tone was always supposed to be even from the 10 minute, like, BMI workshop version that they did in, what, 98, 99.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Like, it was supposed to be kind of a comic, ironic look at ect, which is why the Feeling Electric title, which is b. Terrible. Stuck with it for so long. Yeah. Feeling Apostrophe. Electric Girl. No.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, so which is to say, hold on to what you were gonna say for, like, 30 seconds as I just lead us up to this moment. The show started as an idea by Brian Yorkey because Yorkie and Tom Kitty met at the BMI workshop and started collaborating together. And at bmi, you have to do a final presentation. You have to do, like, a 10, 15 minute musical. And Yorkie was watching a story about ECT, electroshock therapy. And he really went like, they're still doing that. Because our collective minds think back of, like, the 50s and 60s, which is like this barbaric thing. And so he wanted to make a musical about that. They called it Feeling Electric, and they spent the next, like, four years kind of fleshing it out into a full musical. They did an actual reading in 2002 at a theater in Washington, the Village Theater in Issaquah, Washington, where Yorkie was the associate artistic director. Then they would do a string of readings for a few years in New York, one of which starred Sherri Renee Scott and Nora Leovods, which, my God, I want the audio of that.

[Brian Nash]

Sherry talks about it in the show that they did together, two Hander, where basically after last five years, just casting directors put them together and everything. So they did readings of that. They did readings of Honeymooners. There were like four different projects that they were just paired together on continually.

[Matt Kopf]

But like, as well they should have because they're awesome together. But like, I want a sideshow with Sherri Renee Scott and Norbert Leo Butz. But, you know, nobody lets me do what I want. Nobody lets me do what I want. But so, yeah, they do one. Then they do a premiere at the second annual Nymph. This is where a lot of musicals that you've come to love, like Title Lashow, premiered the season that they do. It was the second one. So that was Yank and Gutenberg.

[Brian Nash]

That was 04, I think.

[Matt Kopf]

So 4.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, 5. Okay, 04.

[Matt Kopf]

05. Something like that. This one starred Amy Spanger and Anthony Rapp and Annaleigh Ashford. It won no awards that year because none were really given, but there were 12 productions that were given a quote unquote, next link selection which provided funding and support for a few production. Feeling Electric was not selected, but I believe that is where David Stone came to find it and he came on board as the producer and they did further development at Second Stage with Alice Ripley, Greg Edelman, Phoebe Stroll and Skylar Astin and Stone and Second Stage were the ones who were like, you need to change the title. This title is terrible. And so they changed the title, but the tone remained the same, which is why people were so confused. And so that's what goes back to what Brian was saying earlier of the

[Brian Nash]

sarcastic, quippy, satirical tone and keeping the tune Feeling Electric. Because Feeling Electric at Second Stage was the closing of act one.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, I think the Doctor sang it right.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. And it was like a, you know, a big old rock number about electroshock therapy. And that's what you left Act One with.

[Matt Kopf]

Think about how Next Normal actually ends now. It used to be a big fun rock number for Dr. Madden.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep. And then going back to Matt, what Matt was saying, there was a number. So at the end of the opening number, now Diana has her first mental break where she's making sandwiches on the floor. They saved that and just the number got a big old traditional musical theater button. And then we went to Costco with Diana and she had her mental break whilst shopping in Costco with a number called More, More, More. It was not great, but again, it was very silly. The tone of it was wildly different than anything that's in Next To Normal Now. And it Set you up for a show that it's not.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. It's also from. I watched some of it. It's a very overly staged number. More so than that production ended up being. Cause, like, what I remember about the original production was sort of the viewpoints of it all. Like, there was always sort of angles going on and a lot of crisscrossing. It was. It was never cluttered, which I think added clarity to the storytelling, but also made me find a little bit of a sterile quality to the production, which is maybe why I wasn't able to relate to it. At least that was my feeling from it at the time. And so Costco, when you watch that number, it's like they add in all these shelves and Alice Ripley's walking around with a shopping cart, like, all over the stage. Like, it is a cluttered number.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And it's prop heavy in a way that nothing else in the show is.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Because say what you will about the original staging, but it did have that kind of just Michael Greif vibe of Unit Scaffold Y set. Not a lot going on on the stage. And it's really just about how the physical bodies move in the space as opposed to like, oh, we got a pile of bells and whistles.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. So I also feel very ren. Like, I'm also the only one who really had gripes with the original staging. And there are things in the original staging that I like, certain details that they put in that I actually, we'll talk about when we compare it to the London production. Just certain things that I remember Greif did. And then I went back to the library to watch it again so I could really kind of think about the nuances of everything. And they filmed it, I think, in November of 09. So Aaron was back because he left.

[Brian Nash]

He.

[Matt Kopf]

Aaron left the summer after the Tonys to do Catch Me if you can in Seattle, I think. And then he came back. Yeah, and then he came back that winter to finish out his contract. And it was interesting watching it again. What Griff was doing on a larger canvas than, you know, being up front and up close like I was. So, yeah, that was. That was interesting to me. What is your favorite number in this show, Brian?

[Brian Nash]

Um, it changes. It really depends. I mean, I think I am the One is incredible. And the way. The way it keeps coming back, I feel is very, very effective. You don't know. I Am the One is. It's a great scene, I think. Really feels like the show to me. And it's where it crystallizes the most for me. I mean, I miss the mountains. Is incredible. I think it's gorgeous and does really good things. We can talk about the London versus the original later because I have thoughts, but. Yeah, what is your favorite?

[Matt Kopf]

I'm not gonna. I do think that the opening is pretty fantastic. I think it sets up the scene and the tone really well.

[Brian Nash]

I.

[Matt Kopf]

If I'm listening to anything, it might also be, you don't know, into I Am the One. I think that whole sequence is fantastic. I also really love. I. I tend to like sequences in Next Normal more than, like, the singular songs. You know, I think every teenager really likes Superboy and the Invisible Girl. I actually like it less now over time. Not. I think it's a perfectly good song, but it also comes right after such a banger scene and it's so short that I'm always like. Every time I've watched it now with like, the London production and going back to the library, it's, you know, you have this extended sequence and then you get a 2 1/2 minute number with an applause break. And you're not used to that a lot. In Next Normal, you tend to have longer stretches with applause. So for me, I'm always like. It's like a little pit stop.

[Brian Nash]

Very much so. And I think that's actually a lot of what they fix between second stage and arena. Like, they did create more extended sequences. Like, they cut the button from the opening number. They cut a lot of buttons, which is great, which is why Superwoman, the Visible Girl. But it's like, clap, clap, clap, clap. Feels weird, but I feel like it's a better and more complicated score than it gets credit for. It's a rock musical. I'm like. It is. There are rock vibes to it, but as a score, musically, it is so complicated. Superboy and the Invisible girl is in 11 8. Like, it is in a time signature that does not exist. And there's a lot of kind of dropped beats and added beats in order to make it feel less square and more unsteady. Just kind of throughout the score. And I think it's incredibly smart musical writing.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. No, there's. I think I've always thought that the score was fantastic and rightfully won the Tony that year. For me, again, it's just. It's the longer sequences. The make up youp Mind sequence, I think, is fantastic. I love how it intertwines all the different characters. I've always kind of. Whenever I've re. Listened to it, I've always kind of trailed off before act one ends. I just. I. I don't know if it's that I don't want to go to a dark, emotional place when I listen to it, or if it's just that the songs don't do it for me as well. And watching the London pro shot and then watching it at the library, I think Act 2 actually has a lot more nuance than it gets credit for. And we'll talk about that. With a certain story beat that happens with Diana. There is a song that I. I don't like. I just flat out don't like. And. And I wish that they would take another stab at it. It's called the Song of Forgetting. Sing a song of forgetting. I. I'm just like, I think we can try that once more.

[Brian Nash]

It is gently on the nose, and I don't know who we're talking to or why. There are these moments in the kind of opening number where we break the fourth wall, and I don't know who we're talking to or why, and then we never do that again. And I do think that's it's deliberate, but I kind of don't know why.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, it plays fast and loose with theatrical storytelling devices, which. It's not a ding against the show, but I think it is a symptom of how fast and loose it plays the material. With that comes some dramaturgical hiccups. Very few shows are, like, objectively perfect, but it is something to consider. Yeah. Like, you know, Dan has the sides to the audience in the opening number that he never really does again.

[Brian Nash]

The.

[Matt Kopf]

Like, I never know what she's talking about. It's. Yeah, like, who is he talking to?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. That always bothered me in a way that I think it's on purpose to kind of let us into this world, and then we kind of forget that we're in the world, and then the world is just happening to us. Whereas if we didn't have those kind of moments where the characters are clocking, where things are going a little askew, we wouldn't necessarily know that this is their everyday existence, that he's clocking it and then letting it go and deliberately letting it go.

[Matt Kopf]

I don't know if there's a fix for that at the beginning to make that clear and not break the fourth wall. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe there is. All I'm saying is I would like to maybe rewrite Song of Forgetting. And, hey, if there are a couple of lines here and there, we want to take another pass at Absolutely. Because I do think the show works very well. I just. I think there are moments we could make even better.

[Brian Nash]

Sure, sure. Song I'm forgetting is a little gently on the nose.

[Matt Kopf]

It's the only song I don't like. It's the only one I don't like.

[Brian Nash]

I mean, every time I do. So, like, when I'm playing out in the world and people ask for I'm alive, which is weirdly frequent, that lyric just feels insane out of context.

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, sure.

[Brian Nash]

And listening back to the second stage, like, the old lyrics were very much not good, but they knew that they knew, and they kind of fixed. But, you know, a character who is very much dead just screaming about how alive he is is hilarious to me.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Like, girl.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, I think that's the other thing of the vagueness of Gabe. So. Okay, so if you want more context, then I'm assuming everyone who's listening to this knows Next Normal pretty well. I'm sure there are people who love the with every fiber of their being who found this on their for you page and probably clicked off in the first five minutes when we didn't immediately start talking about Jack Wolfe, but.

[Brian Nash]

But I.

[Matt Kopf]

But I don't know. Anyway, Diana, we find out, was diagnosed with bipolar disorder when she was about 21, 22. But she also says that she's not convinced, and her doctors weren't convinced that that was fully the extent of it. So we have a name, but we're also being told don't get too in the weeds of that diagnosis because it's possible that there's other stuff going on with her. The genuine thinking today is that she does have bipolar disorder that got exacerbated through ptsd. And the point of the show is that she kept getting treated for things for her bipolar disorder, but never for her ptsd. And so her condition just kept getting worse because other things were not getting treated. And so what we learn is that they are not a family of four. It is not Diana, Dan, Gabe, and Natalie. It is simply Diana, Dan, and Natalie, because Gabe was their first child who died when he was 8 months old. And Diana has been holding onto Gabe in some way, which I want to talk about that as well, of, like, what exactly is this manifestation of Gabe? Has he always been there? Is this something that's happened before? Is this new? Like, what. What is this going on with him? Because the introduction of him seems to be kind of this taboo subject, and that's sort of what makes the plot start to spiral, is the fact that she's physically interacting with him in front of the family in a way that causes things to go into chaos. But you have an actor playing an 18 year old version of Gabe or what Diana would imagine Gabe is. And in different interviews with different collaborators and different actors, there's always a different mentality of what that role represents and what his intentions are. And I would love to discuss it with you because I don't fucking know. And I'm trying to figure it out for myself. And of course things are open to interpretation. But yeah, there's. Yeah. How would you describe this role?

[Brian Nash]

I mean, it is. It is challenging to describe. And I kind of didn't clock how much it was influenced by the original production and the original staging until I watched the London pro shot. Because the tone of how they create and manifest Gabe is very different than the original Broadway. He's kind of fucking evil in the original production. I feel he's trying to kind of manifest himself in a way that is incredibly aggressive. I mean, he's kind ish to Diana when he's not trying to get her to, you know, do things.

[Matt Kopf]

Unalive herself.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. But he is vicious with Dan. He's absolutely vicious in trying to get Dan to acknowledge him.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

And I felt in the London production that kid was so sad and he's like just trying to come back in a way.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

As opposed to impose himself on the family. It's. It's weird being a twink ghost. It's a challenge. Twink Ghost Story is, you know, it's a hard profession.

[Matt Kopf]

There's gotta be more of those of twink ghost roles in musical theater that maybe that's our first Broadway breakdown merch of like the names of twink ghosts. Twink ghosts, yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Gabe in that. Yeah. In that kind of American Apparel font. Yeah. Like the name list. Huh. Who are our other twink ghosts?

[Matt Kopf]

I know you think about that for a second. So my thinking of Gabe, which I actually. Another reason why I'm really partial to the London production is because of how they portray him and how Jack plays him. He was this sort of malevolent creature in the original production of, you know, first he's this all American boy and then as the reveal happens that he doesn't exist, really on stage they had Aaron and then Kyle Dean Massey sort of snake around the stage all the time. And you would go up and down on all the levels and he would always sort of look around and be brooding. As Brian said, he kind of comes across as very evil, but also like in control. Like this over looming presence. And I think that's partly why I never bought the show at the time, because I didn't buy that. I didn't buy that as a storytelling device, that he is this creature that's in control of everything. And it made the finale with Dan kind of confusing to me. For a while I wasn't quite sure what was going on. And the London production kind of unlocked it for me in a way, which is that Gabe just genuinely doesn't exist. He is a representation of grief and trauma and all of these things, and jealousy for Natalie and all these things. And so he acts to each character how they feel about him. So it's. He's not actually in control. He is domineering and mean spirited to Natalie because that's how she's kind of feeling about that presence. He is comforting and seductive to Diana and because that's how she feels about him. And he is invisible and annoying to Dan and then eventually like aggressive with Dan, because that's what he needs. But this idea of I'm alive, it's not necessarily him as a creature singing to the audience. I am now in power and control and I can do all of these things. He doesn't actually do anything. He's a theatrical device. And the whole point of Dan is that he will never actually say Gabe's name. He doesn't want to talk about the son. When Gabe died, his mentality was give Diana a couple of months to process because we learned that, you know, Gabe was an unplanned pregnancy. When they were in college, they got married to, you know, have the baby. Then Gabe died when he was eight months old. They had Natalie to kind of fill in the void. And Dan kind of went whole hog on being like Natalie's dad. And Diana just wasn't ready yet. So she kind of. She was always playing catch up and never could because she was never really given the time to process her grief of her baby. And it kept just becoming this foundation that was built on rotten ground. And so Diana kept being told to put that in the past, put it in the past. And yet she was still sort of harboring all of these emotions and all these feelings with no place to go. And so Dan's whole arc with Gabe is eventually being able to recognize him and acknowledge him and open up the floodgates too. That was such a painful thing that I never really allowed myself to access. Now I will. Which is why in the London production, his interaction, Jamie Parker and Jack Wolf's interaction, I actually really love because it's a little bit like a wrestling match. Like, no, no, you will. You have to say my name. And he does. And it becomes like. It's painful, but it is freeing and I really enjoyed that. Whereas in. In New York, I always like. I remember like Aaron coming out of the shadows like a goddamn snake. I'm like, oh, God, is he gonna murder Dan? And then I go, no, he can't do that. He's not real. But then he, like hugged him. And I was like, what is going on? I don't. I remember just being very, very confused. And maybe it's because I was a dumb 19 year old, but that was me at the time.

[Brian Nash]

No, I mean, look, that scene, the writing is very effective. I think the way it was kind of staged in New York. Again, I didn't realize it was less good until I watched the London pro shot. Basically, he's like, hugs him, you know, Brian d' Arcy James slash Bobby Spencer. Says, Gabe, Gabe Gabriel. And then he like hugs him. He's like, hi, dad. And then he just kind of runs out. After the acknowledgement, what struck me is that how Gabe is then removed to the upper level of the house in London, and he's just broken. Like, he is so sad because he's been released and now he has nowhere to go. And I think that's like Gabe finally letting go of the family. And now is just a sad, lonely ghost child.

[Matt Kopf]

He's officially just a ghost twink.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And now he doesn't exist and he doesn't have any anchor. And so as the family is healing, he's broken.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

And I loved that. I didn't expect to love that. I was trying to look up. I'm looking up the lyric because what you were saying about I'm alive, about how he's, you know, the London version was less about him manifesting his power. That kind of goes against the lyric that he's got in the opening. What is it that, like, I am more than the world will feel. No, in the opening, like, the world will feel my power and obey.

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, yeah. Is that the lyric for just another day when the. Another stolen hour when the world will feel my power and obey.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, the direction for New York feels based on that line and London was like, no one will remember that.

[Matt Kopf]

I. I just. I genuinely feel like the London production, with both direction and honestly with performances, I just feel like it. It actually has a better understanding of mania and hallucination and I don't know, like, obviously what I appreciate about Jackal's performance is he does play Gabe as a human, but also as an entity at the same time. Whereas I just felt like Aaron Tovage played him solely as an entity for, for my money, which is also why I always said it's like the best use of Aaron Tveit. He, he's playing an idea, not a, not a person, but

[Brian Nash]

an idea and a tight T shirt, which is, you

[Matt Kopf]

know, nice working and boxers for, for that opening number. But people also conflated the two memories of the opening number in I'm Alive because they'd be like to watch Aaron Tveit in boxers sliding around on those, on those poles. I was like, he didn't do that.

[Brian Nash]

Nope.

[Matt Kopf]

He was in his boxers and then he. And then he was in on the polls.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, is my typical Saturday.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. But so I'm hoping that I'm making sense to the listeners here. It's, it's. Everybody always wants to do the easier thing. No matter who you are, the harder thing is always exhausting. And sometimes the harder thing is acknowledging the pain that you have. Sometimes the harder thing is working through the pain that you have. So like Diana, what makes Gabe seductive to her is that it's easier to stay in this soft landing spot with 18 year old Gabe than to actually work through therapy of letting him go. Dan. It's easier to just not acknowledge him than to actually talk about this awful thing that happened when he was 22 that kind of fully destroyed his life. Even though he has managed to build something on that. It's, it's, as I said, it's on rotted ground. And Natalie kind of blames Gabe even though Gabe has never actually done anything to her other than die of a bowel obstruction. And so again, he's not actually doing anything. How he acts on stage is based off of what the actual physical characters on earth are feeling and about him and doing with, with their own lives. Does that make sense? And I'm not trying to take away, trying to put autonomy on people who are struggling and say, like, if you're not working on it, you're the problem. But just tying it to that role is sort of how I've always felt about it now. Of how I've always felt that. How I have felt about it now. Haven't always felt that way. I feel about it that way now. And it was something that I just sort of watched with the London production of Even when, when Jack would like have an evil grin on his face, I would go like, but I don't think that you're evil. I think that you're evil to him. I think you're evil to her, and I think you're caring to her. So, like, I don't think that Gabe is seducing Diana to unalive herself. I think that Diana is in that moment of the I Dream to Dance, which is when, after her breakthrough in therapy, she's supposed to go home and, like, sit with Gabe's things and, like, fully release him. And she should. That is ultimately what will set her free. But she can't do it. And it's not that literally, the ghost of Gabe whispers in her ear, kill yourself.

[Brian Nash]

It's that.

[Matt Kopf]

It's that she's just like, I just can't do it. And it's a theatrically enticing way to show it by having the actor representing Gabe be there for her. Like, that is a way for audiences to understand what's going on. It gets more complicated because then people think this is a ring situation.

[Brian Nash]

Or.

[Matt Kopf]

What was that Sarah Michelle Geller movie where she was in the haunted Japanese house?

[Brian Nash]

Oh, was that Vampire Slayer? Yeah. No Cruel Intentions? No, I don't. I don't know.

[Matt Kopf]

The jump scare there was like, the Japanese ghost boy twink in her bed and you. And he's like, was it okay, Whatever. Okay. American Horror Story, the first season American Horror Story with the Murder House and.

[Brian Nash]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Matt Kopf]

And what's his face, Evan? What's his face? But he basically, like, convinces the daughter to kill herself because everyone who moves in the house dies. And so I just feel like that Gabe is not the Murder House in. In next to Normal.

[Brian Nash]

He's not.

[Matt Kopf]

He's not actually physically able to tell characters what to do. He is a theatrical device of a manifestation of their. Each character's trauma and grief and disorder.

[Brian Nash]

That's. That's.

[Matt Kopf]

I guess I'm trying to get around in that's very long monologue.

[Brian Nash]

And I think, like, each of those characters are kind of a representation of how one deals with grief and, like, different stages of how one deals with grief. Yeah. I mean, Dan is just denial, and Dinah kind of goes back and forth in between bargaining and depression.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

So. And Natalie is just anger partly because she never knew him, but his absence has affected her entire life and is the reason she exists. And Diana says. And I think she knows that.

[Matt Kopf]

She says, I know she knows. Yeah, they never said it, but Natalie absolutely knows. Because first of all, Natalie's very smart. And we talked about this in the light of the Piazza episode. Parents in troubled homes think that they hide this shit from their kids. They don't. The kids always know. They always know. And they talked about this with Natalie was a big change between second stage and arena of like, just the tone of the character. She was more of a drawl, wisecracking teen at second stage. And they infuse her with a lot more hurt, which of course makes her more rageful. But that because that rage came from a very raw, real place, audiences were able to attach themselves to her. They understood why she was lashing out. It wasn't just like this annoying fucking millennial. It's like, no, this kid is going through shit and neither of her parents are helping her. They both are making it worse.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Replacing her first major song, which is perfect now, was basically the same vibe before. Interestingly, they changed the piece of music that she's practicing and made it Mozart instead.

[Matt Kopf]

What was the original piece?

[Brian Nash]

Invention in C. No. Yeah, Chopin. I can't remember. Yeah, I threw my classical training out the window once I graduated from college. Ditched that opera degree real quick.

[Matt Kopf]

Anybody who's watching this can see the La Boheme poster behind Brian right now.

[Brian Nash]

Yes, but it's the Broadway production.

[Matt Kopf]

Yes, it's the Baz Luhrmann.

[Brian Nash]

La Bo M. It's the Baz Luhrmann, which I saw 22 times.

[Matt Kopf]

See, that's the kind of Broadway fandom that I'm on board with.

[Brian Nash]

Sure. Well, there were also three casts, so you can see all of them, one of which was Alfie Bow. We were just talking about the Les Mis arena concert, which I saw Alfie do, and I'm like, yeah, that's about the same kind of performance he was giving in 2002. Moms love Alfie Bow. They love Alfie Bow. And good for them. Know your demo.

[Matt Kopf]

But so Natalie.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, Natalie. Yeah. So they replaced her. They replace her song and it's in second stage. She was kind of just screaming for no reason. And there was a calmness and a ramp up to the new tune. The Mozart was crazy. Flat fucking crazy. That shows the reason why she's the way she is is like if she is perfect, if she does everything exactly right and becomes, you know, the brainiac golden child, then she can justify her existence to her mother and she'll finally be seen. Which we get in Superboy and the Invisible Girl. More of her trying to justify herself.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, because it's. It's sort of the. All of this shit that I've gone through has to be Worth it somehow. And it's. And. And if I. If I do not achieve this, not then it was all for nothing. I'm just someone who went through something awful, which is. You know, sometimes people write plays, Brian, and. And you just go, I, I, you. I. If I. I can't let that just be a thing that happened to me. This has to be for something. And, you know, she talks about, you know, you. I'm gonna get. I'm gonna graduate early. I'm gonna get my scholarship. I'm gonna go to Yale, and I. All I have to do is do this last perfect thing and it's all gonna be great. And it's clearly not what will make her feel happy. It's not bringing her joy, but it is a goal that she thinks is achievable. But it's also like, it's hurting her as well. It's another thing that's hurting her.

[Brian Nash]

And she never really. The sad thing is like, she never really finds pure joy. The closest thing we get to Natalie enjoying herself is when she's stolen all of her mother's medication and is going to clubs.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Fucked out of her mind.

[Matt Kopf]

Four clubs on a Tuesday night or something like that is. Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

I'm also wondering, so do we know where they all live?

[Brian Nash]

No idea. I don't know what the fuck club she's going to up at 17 years old or 16 years old.

[Matt Kopf]

I'm also wondering, you know, where do they live where there are four different clubs she can go to on a Tuesday night. Clearly they go there lives. They live someplace where there's a. Downtown. But.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Because Diana talks about having to speed downtown to save Gabe, and so I. Yeah, I'm. They don't live like in a city, but maybe a suburb near a city. But then, I don't know. This is the dramaturgical shit that gets in my head. They could just. They could just say, hey. Instead of saying, like, this is the fourth club this week. You've gone to this club three times this week. It could be like the one club in town. That's all you got to say, Yorkie. These are just the things I'm like, hey, can we just come back and change that?

[Brian Nash]

And they did change things in London. Like, they updated a bunch of stuff.

[Matt Kopf]

They included X.

[Brian Nash]

They included X. They updated the length of time that a parent is allowed to grieve. Went from clinically from four months to six months. There's lots of little tiny changes that they made. So do that fix that little kind of weird moment.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, those are the things that I think are more actual fixes rather than the hiccups we were talking about earlier. But. And, you know, maybe rewriting songs we're forgetting. But if you want to, if you

[Brian Nash]

want to, I would like it just Jen Simard. Always just come back to Jen Simard.

[Matt Kopf]

Jen Simard is Diana Goodman. Imagine. I miss the mountains.

[Brian Nash]

All right. Yeah, look, people love a strong, interesting vocal placement on a Diana Goodman. Sure.

[Matt Kopf]

I also think that Jen Simard's Tony's coming when she does her first, like, serious. I think her next show is going to be a serious show and people are going to have their minds fucking blown. And she's going to win a Tony for that.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, I hope so. I hope so. I also just want her to go to television and make a pile of money and then come back.

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, sure, sure. Make a pile of money. Get an extra like 10 million Instagram followers so she can then pick whatever show she wants to do.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

I mean, yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, God. Oh, God.

[Matt Kopf]

Listen to Bibles. As Bob Fosse said to BB New Earth when she asked if it was okay for her to leave Sweet Charity for a few weeks to film Cheers, he said, there's no shame in making money, Bibi. And she said, got it. And then she became a pretty decent TV star and got to have. And got to headline and shit after that. That.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And got Tonys and Delights.

[Matt Kopf]

So I guess for anyone who's wondering what the song of forgetting is, one of the plot lines with Diana is, you know, them all throughout act one, trying to find ways to give her a more balanced chemical. More chemical balance in her brain. And so they start with her psychopharmacologist and all the different pills.

[Brian Nash]

Great number.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, it's a very good number.

[Brian Nash]

Still works. And that's the thing. That's one of the, like, irony laden tunes from the original draft that actually still works.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. What they learned also is going whole hog on the emotion. Doesn't mean that the show needs to be a cry fest from start to finish. You actually do need laughter to break the tension. We talked about this in Piazza and sort of how I felt that James Lapine missed the boat with the original production of Passion. They were so concerned about laughter that they did everything in their power to cut. And I feel like post productions of Broadway of Passion figured out how to incorporate humor to make that show breathe because you can't just do two hours of Love Me or I'll Die. Like there's actual humor in that show. And next To Normal has a lot of humor in it as well. And that isn't one of the few, like, actual humorous numbers. But the thing with Anna is, you know, she. She goes on these pills, she eventually flushes them down the toilet, and then they go to a new therapist, which she has all these breakthroughs on, but that leads to a major relapse and an attempt at suicide. And the final, like, grasp is the doctor recommending ect, electroshock therapy. And Diana and Dan eventually agree to do it. And that's how act one ends. And then act two, she comes home after three weeks of ECT with major memory loss, severe memory loss, 19 years worth. And the. There's a lot of conversation about that plot device. We'll just say that. But it does lead to the song, literally, of Song of Forgetting. She comes home. She doesn't know who Natalie is. She knows who Dan is, sort of. But she does. And she does know it's their house. And they start showing her photographs, just, you know, reminder of things. And Dan won't show any of the stuff of Gabe. He just is showing stuff of Natalie, stuff of their honeymoon, things like that. And some things come back, but not everything. And that's the song they sing. And forgetting. It does have a good lyric in it that I think is fun, which is Dan showing something from their honeymoon or their wedding, a flower from their wedding. And he goes, it was perfect. Everything we dreamed it would be. And Natalie's like, no, it wasn't. And he goes, no, it's how I remember it. She goes, it was everything we'd hoped. And she says, it was raining. It was Portland. You eloped. I mean, really, dad? Portland.

[Brian Nash]

Portland, yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Portland, dad. And that. That always gets a nice laugh, which I appreciate.

[Brian Nash]

Which, again, not knowing where the fuck we are. So do we mean Portland, Maine, or Oregon?

[Matt Kopf]

I'm thinking Oregon.

[Brian Nash]

I am, too.

[Matt Kopf]

I. I don't know why.

[Brian Nash]

So are they in some kind of, like. I don't know why the whole thing feels Seattle to me.

[Matt Kopf]

I was thinking the same thing. Jesus Christ, what is wrong with us? I. I always. I felt like they lived maybe, like, right on the outskirts of Seattle.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Like, close enough that they could get to, like, Midtown in 20 minutes. Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I don't know why it feels Seattle to me, but. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Sure as hell don't feel San Francisco. No, no.

[Brian Nash]

Or.

[Matt Kopf]

Or Austin.

[Brian Nash]

Or Austin. San Jose. Like.

[Matt Kopf]

Or Santa Fe.

[Brian Nash]

Oh.

[Matt Kopf]

Or San Diego.

[Brian Nash]

Or as everything happens in. Everything happens in Santa Fe in musicals.

[Matt Kopf]

It's true. Or everybody's always Trying to get to Santa Fe in musicals. Why is that?

[Brian Nash]

Why is that like the fucking Mecca of late 90s, early 2000s musical theater?

[Matt Kopf]

I think. Cause it's a decent rhyme. You can do something with Faye in a way you can't do with Diego.

[Brian Nash]

Well, prego, Diego are pretty Fae, you know?

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, Yeah, I know. I want someone to sing a song about San Diego, as Ron Burgundy pronounced it.

[Brian Nash]

Sing a song of Diego. Sure.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, sure.

[Brian Nash]

That's what we can replace the song of forgetting with. That's the new lyric.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, the problem is, then you go, sing a song of Diego. It's better than Mar a Lago. Yeah, it gets bad.

[Brian Nash]

Key. Largo. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

My favorite movie.

[Brian Nash]

Lumbago. Yeah, sure. Great.

[Matt Kopf]

We got it. We're getting there. I think we're in the right mental state for talking about this show. The.

[Brian Nash]

Come on. Rhymingdictionary.com

[Matt Kopf]

this episode brought to you by Rhyming Dictionary Derek Haram.

[Brian Nash]

It's dot com. Wait, what is that? Did you ever watch Homestar Runner? Where have we gone to that?

[Matt Kopf]

What is she?

[Brian Nash]

She was an early, early 2000s, like, Internet kind of meme site. There were all these animated shorts, and they are brilliant. There are a bunch of char. But the lead character is Homestar Runner, who is this kind of like, white oblong thing with a little, like, propeller beanie on. He's like Homestar Runner. It's dot com. It's just the weirdest thing ever. And there is a kind of gruff, semi evil character named Strong Bad who basically has a Mexican wrestling mask on and boxing gloves. And my boyfriend does a very good impression of him, and he'd always answer fan emails. It's chaotic as shit. I'm gonna send you some things.

[Matt Kopf]

Please do. Please do. I. I'm. I'm confused and intrigued. Much like my sexuality.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Strong Bad had a. A comic that he drew called Teen Girl Squad. That is incredible. Yeah, let's. So let's.

[Matt Kopf]

Why don't we talk about what we want to talk about? There was a. The thing about the Broadway production of Next Normal was that it did end up being quite successful. It ran for almost two years.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Won the. Won the Pulitzer in 2010, which was actually controversial. Brian, did you know this?

[Brian Nash]

I didn't know that until, like, I literally never heard that until you sent me that Guardian article. Was it the Guardian? It was basically like, it's controversial. The Next Normal won the Pulitzer. Why?

[Matt Kopf]

Because it. This is. I think this is the third time this has happened on the podcast where we covered a Show that had Pulitzer drama, but Pulitzer drama for the Pulitzer for drama. But it boils down to that. It was submitted. It was not selected as a. As a finalist, but the production invited the voting board to the show anyway, and the board decided that they were going to give it to Next to normal. And so that was the. That was the drama, which, honestly, like, part of me respects the next normal team for, like, going rogue about that of, like, we disagree with the judges and we think we're. We're good. Why don't you all come? I. Part of me is also like, that's a little Corinne from that one season of the Bachelor that I watched where she was. Where she, like, disregarded the rules or. No, it wasn't Corinne. Now, there's some. There's some bachelor season where, like, the girls had to do a running contest or whatever through an obstacle course, and one girl just, like, went to the right and went past all of the obstacles and got to the finish line. And the producers let her win the challenge because they're like, she had initiative. She just. She decided she wanted it. And everyone's like, we followed the rules, though.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, but is David Stone really going to follow the rules?

[Matt Kopf]

I guess not. I guess not.

[Brian Nash]

Between him and Rudin, like, you know, of the Broadway producers of note, like, yeah, we're not. We're not gonna, like, oh, no, the Pulitzer committee didn't like our show. It's like, fine. No, come see it. And honestly, I feel like the show does deserve it. The show they got to deserves it.

[Matt Kopf]

What was the finalists that year for the Pulitzer? It was okay. Pulitzer for drama. Next to normal. The finalists were. Okay. It was the Bengal tiger at the Baghdad Zoo. The elaborate entrance of Chad Deity, which I have never heard of. But it's Christopher Diaz. Who is Christopher Diaz, the one who wrote the book for Hell's Kitchen in the next room. Or the vibrator play by Sarah Rule, which was a perfectly fine play.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Is Christopher Diaz, who I'm thinking of. Yes. He wrote the book for Hell's Kitchen. So in my mind, yeah, I'm okay with next Normal winning it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Again, is it a slight dick move? Sure. But also, part of me wonders if, you know, David Stone sort of looked at the nominees and he was like, I'm sorry, these three. These three peggies and went, voters, come to my show. You will. You will prefer this over the scripts that you were just sent.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And honestly, like, there. I always feel there is a little bit of a, like, musicals with the Pulitzer Committee.

[Matt Kopf]

Sure. It happens. Deadly.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. How many. How many have actually won? 6. In the recent years.

[Matt Kopf]

In the recent years? Yeah. Maybe more like that. But overall, I think it's 11. It's strange. Loop Hamilton next to Normal Rent. Sunday in the park with George, A Chorus Line, how to Succeed Fiorello, which is so fucking random.

[Brian Nash]

So dumb. South Pacific.

[Matt Kopf]

South Pacific. Of the icing. I feel like there's an 11th one. Or maybe it's just those 10. Okay.

[Brian Nash]

The fact that you got. Of the icing. Bravo.

[Matt Kopf]

Thank you. Bravo, girl. What podcast do you think you're on?

[Brian Nash]

I hope that this knowledge will someday get you laid at least once.

[Matt Kopf]

That knowledge is never gonna be what gets me laid. That knowledge is what's gonna keep me from ever getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant. Because in the middle of the actual. I'm gonna say, well, of the I, Singh was the first musical to win the Pulitzer, but George Grossam was not given the Pulitzer because they didn't think the music was applicable to it. That's when the person I'm with is gonna be like, okay, stop. I'm gonna go now. I'm gonna. You finish what you're doing over here. I'm gonna head over to another place where someone doesn't have that knowledge.

[Brian Nash]

I don't know. There is a lid for every pot and a top for every you.

[Matt Kopf]

Can we stop this narrative that I'm a power bottom? I'm not.

[Brian Nash]

I never set up. I never said power bottom. You said it.

[Matt Kopf]

I want to go on record for every me. What are the listeners supposed to feel in this moment?

[Brian Nash]

They've met you.

[Matt Kopf]

Some of them have not. Listen. What do you. Stop it.

[Brian Nash]

People will listen to you for three hours, rattle on about Fiorello. So I think they're familiar with the

[Matt Kopf]

work, but it's also not true. Brian, stop this.

[Brian Nash]

I know it's not true.

[Matt Kopf]

It's not being mean to me. So that's not.

[Brian Nash]

Look, no bottom shaming. There is no bottom shaming because most

[Matt Kopf]

power bottoms are demon twinks or Patti LuPone.

[Brian Nash]

I just spent 12 days on a boat with Patti LuPone. She is not a power bottom. She is. She is a, you know, aggressive verse top.

[Matt Kopf]

If you say so. I.

[Brian Nash]

We are furious, but we are sailing.

[Matt Kopf]

I'm sorry. Isn't that what everybody says? I am furious, but I am sailing. I am taking this joystick and I am sailing the choppy seas. I'm sorry. That's what powerbottoms say.

[Brian Nash]

Look, I'm just saying, like, you knowing that much about Fiorello and of the icing is is going to stand you in good stead.

[Matt Kopf]

Sure, we'll see.

[Brian Nash]

Sting is someone who really like. Like the moment that I knew that my relationship was going to become a relationship is when we were talking like post coitally about Ann Miller's soup commercial. There you go.

[Matt Kopf]

I Sometimes there's nothing one can say. What I will say is, have you seen the clip of Patti LuPone coaching a teenage girl singing I miss the Mountains from ne to Normal? And she says, do you even know what the song is about? And Patty goes, it's about sex. It's about an orgasm. This is a song about an orgasm.

[Brian Nash]

Clearly Patty was not one of the Tony voters that year. No.

[Matt Kopf]

But I have wondered, what would a early 90s Patti LuPone be like as Diana Goodman?

[Brian Nash]

Oh, sensational. To quote Cola Scholar. Like, how would it look sensational? It would be great.

[Matt Kopf]

My only Alice Ripley impression I can do is her didn't I see this movie?

[Brian Nash]

Which is.

[Matt Kopf]

Didn't they see this movie?

[Brian Nash]

Didn't I cray?

[Matt Kopf]

Didn't they cry?

[Brian Nash]

See, okay, look, the key to a Ripley as Diana Goodman impression is to just think slightly Swedish.

[Matt Kopf]

Sure. No, every time I try to do Swedish I just do. I do Alice Ripley. Every time I. Every time I try to do Carolee Carmelo, I just start doing Alice Ripley or it's Irish, it becomes Irish.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, I wish I could, I wish I could get the early Carolee Carmela vibrato because then that would just, you know, it would be so easy to get and then get that pressure.

[Matt Kopf]

Just leave your vibrator in Brian, and then you'll get it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, just turn it up to like 17 and then that's the key. It's the speed.

[Matt Kopf]

Like a power drill.

[Brian Nash]

It is fully, fully that.

[Matt Kopf]

So to pivot.

[Brian Nash]

You don't know this. Like I can't, I can't get it now.

[Matt Kopf]

Every time I do Carolee's do it alone Leo, it just becomes Irish.

[Brian Nash]

Do it alone, Leo. Do it all by yourself. You're the only one who matters after all. They're dancing in the streets. Leo, Leo, pray your voice is alert. Not enough to read through that dwarf slightly Sean Connery.

[Matt Kopf]

It becomes Irish Scottish. It's, it's, it's, it's. I can't do it. I try and I just. Always going to do it alone, Leo. But how, how else does one do it?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's always good to find. You need to find like that one in to a vocal impression. Like Judy Garland. Everything has to go through R like, it's gotta be.

[Matt Kopf]

We start dream casting these older divas in their prime as Diana Goodman and it just becomes a treasure trove of what the fuckery. Liza,

[Brian Nash]

my God. Sure, sure. What's her. Oh, God, I'm having a mini stroke. Original Miss Hannigan.

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, dork.

[Brian Nash]

Louden.

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, my God.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, that would have been nuts.

[Matt Kopf]

That would have been a Diana Goodman straight from the vagina. She would just be bumping and grinding her way all through it. So, okay, when did you watch the London pro shot? Was it purely for this episode or

[Brian Nash]

had you seen Purely for this? No, I was gonna go see it in London and then I heard it was coming over, so I just didn't. And then I just didn't watch the pro shot basically because I didn't know how I was going to feel about it, honestly. And I absolutely fell in love with the production A third of the way through. I fully got on board. I didn't know Jamie Parker was in it. And I loved him in into the Woods. Like, loved, loved, loved him. And I thought he, like. I was so happy to see him in this. Yeah. And yeah, I honestly like full disclosure and might get tased for this. Wasn't sure how I was going to feel about Casey Emmett because I've seen her in, you know, a bunch of things, but wasn't sure how much this would line up. And I like my Diana Vogel to be a little dirty. Sure. To be honest, I mean, you know, being an Alice Stan from, you know, the OG and I went down to go see Rigel Bay Jones do it at the Kennedy center and I thought that performance was fucking perfect. There was such grit on it. Like with Alice, especially towards the end of the run, like, it got. It got challenging because it is a beast of a role. And to put yourself through that eight times a week for, you know, counting second stage and workshops for, you know, two years is gonna take its toll.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

And she is a balls to the wall singer at all points. So I saw Alice towards the end of her run and, you know, it was. It was tough. It was tough on her vocally. Rachel had all of the range on it and all of the power, but it came from a real rock place and it went to that kind of raspy Rachel Bay Jones thing up top and it was fucking thrilling. It was incredible. She sang the shit out of it. She was acting her face off. Brandon Dixon was a really good match for her.

[Matt Kopf]

Do you have audio of it by any chance? Any Audio? No. Maybe.

[Brian Nash]

Okay, I'll send it to you offline.

[Matt Kopf]

No.

[Brian Nash]

Yes. I can't believe I haven't. How did I not?

[Matt Kopf]

I don't know. Because you don't love me like you say you do. You call me a demon twink power bottom on my show, and then you don't even have the audacity to send me audio of Rachel Bay Jones. The Next to Normal.

[Brian Nash]

Fine, fine, fine. Look, I just send everything automatically to Adam and I assume he sends it to you.

[Matt Kopf]

No, I have to. I usually have to bring it up to listen. Anytime I ask Adam if he has something, I get it within five seconds, but it's. He. His mind doesn't go, I must send this to Matt. It tends to be, oh, yeah, I should send that to you. That's like. And then he does, but I'm always, like, the fifth on everybody's list. People think of me five months later. But no, no, no. What? I think I had a similar mentality going into Next Normal. This production, as you did, again, it was a show that wasn't incredibly important to me. The reviews from the Donmar were mostly solid. Cause this was, for all intents and purposes, a premiere for the West End. I think it had been done once in London, like, briefly sort of off West End a few years ago. But this was like a genuine West End premiere. And so there was a lot of the reviews were both on the material as well as the production. And the feeling mostly was strong, if not, like, overly rapturous. And it got, you know, Olivier nominated. It sold out. So they transferred it that summer. I was in London the week before it started previews because they didn't announce the transfer until after I had booked my tickets. So I was actually. I was a little annoyed. And I had debated asking my mom if we could push back a week so I could see it. But then I ended up not doing it. But that tends to be a recurring theme with me with London is every time I go, like, something really awesome is about to start the moment I leave, like, I just missed that. I had just missed Follies of the National. I had just missed. Missed the company with Patty and Rosalie Craig. But the word of mouth once it had transferred was such that, like, oh, this clicks even better than it did at Donmar. And so when the pro shot came out, I watched it. I have said openly on this podcast, I think Casey is an extraordinarily talented individual. I think she is one of the most misused talents on Broadway. I think she keeps getting put in things that are either a mismatch for her vocally. Like, she. She's such a great singer. So it's not like it sounds bad, but I don't think she's really vocally right for Mother in Ragtime. She's vocally so overqualified in Caroline or Change that it's kind of absurd.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

But Mother in Ragtime and Rose Stopnik and Caroline are change. Are acting wise, a good fit for her because she is also a very good actress. But then the role of and are a fit for her vocally, like Ghost and Frozen, it's like, well, those are non acting roles. So it's very rare that she gets a role for me where I'm like, oh, the vocals and the acting challenge mesh well for you. Murder Ballad was one where I went, oh, this is. This is perfect for you. And so next to normal, I was like, okay, we'll see. And I was. I don't know how you felt. I personally was genuinely blown away by what she brought to it. I thought it was such a. I found it to be very raw and it is a very healthy vocal place. You know, there is no danger in that respect. But I don't mind it because I thought it sounded quite lovely. And there's certain notes that she hit that Alice never hit. Like in Just Another Day, when they get to the end of the it hurts bit, she goes, it only hurts when I say. I just remember she belted that and I was like, has that always been in the score?

[Brian Nash]

Because I've never heard that it's been there. But Alice flipped it and so it gets lost in the blend. So that's the thing. Like, I've never seen anything that I felt was like, again, similar to you. Like an exact match for what Casey can do. Yeah. I didn't see Murder Ballad, but yeah, I thought. I agree with you on Mother. Like, I want a more legit voice on it. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

A thicker fold and.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, a little. Little meaty. Little meaty fold.

[Matt Kopf]

Casey's voice doesn't live in the past, it lives in the now.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And so there. It does feel occasionally a little too pop for me on that. And yeah, like. Like Casey Levy doing long distance and Caroline or Change is like, you know, hanging a picture with a sledgehammer. Like, you don't need that much voice on it.

[Matt Kopf]

It's asking Diana Ross to sing Send in the Clowns. It's like, that's not. There are certain songs where. When you actually have too good of a singer on it. It actually, I'm not gonna say it ruins. The ruins is a harsh term. She didn't do a bad job. But, like, you know what I mean? When there are songs that are meant for a limited voice and then you put a stellar voice on it, the. The song starts to change in a way that's. That's not great. And it's unfair to her because I'm like, what is she supposed to do? Like, fucking give herself laryngitis so she can give us Vianne Cox realness? Like, no, she's. Yeah, she's not gonna do that for our benefit.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. No, it is like Shirley Bassey doing Sin and the Clowns. Like, it's just. Which. Hilarious.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, let's be. No, let's be. Okay, that's. I think that's being harsh to Casey because Casey would not over sing something intentionally. So Shirley Bassey would.

[Brian Nash]

Yes. Which. Okay, if. For the listeners, if you don't know Shirley Bassey's Andrew Lloyd Webber album, you need to go and listen to Shirley Bassey singing Charlotte Express, clearly having never heard the song. Reading the lyrics off a piece of paper and they're swinging it. She's like, when you're on the Knights of His Sail and you are lying in bed, like, Harbor's pulling up tight. It is insane. And there are modulations. She is screaming about a train and has no idea what is happening. She is drunk off her ass. Clearly. It is amazing. Favorite thing ever.

[Matt Kopf]

But also, it's that thing of, you know, it's. I think it's easier for people to understand when someone is vocally not up to the task of something. It's harder for people to comprehend what it means to be vocally overqualified and what that does for songs sometimes. But that's so. That's what I mean. So anyway, back to what you were saying as you were leading up to your intro of Casey in the show.

[Brian Nash]

So Casey, like, I. God, I thought she was absolutely devastating in it. I thought she was incredible. It was such a good match. My only. My only little, like, quibble with it is miss the mountains. She ends it up. She, like, adds, you know, it's a little too riffy. It's a little too big. And ends it with an added high note and occasional additional riffs. She's still medicated at this point. Yeah, she still should be in a depressive state. And that made it. Yeah, it made it too bright and too big. When I think when you eventually get to that key change and that one D, that She pops the I'm is a lonely climb is the only moment where she starts to feel a little bit of herself. Yeah. And then like get. I feel like she needs to get pulled back in. So it's like I miss my life instead of I miss my life. Like, it doesn't need to end that big.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. It becomes. Well, and you watch the recording, it becomes a bit of a showstopper, which, you know, it's a great standalone song, but it's. I get very perturbed with numbers that, dramatically speaking, are not showstoppers, but musically speaking, become Showstoppers. Speaking of RicketTime, I was at Ricktime again recently for reasons. And my thoughts on the show remain. My thoughts on this production actually have gotten a little bit worse. But there were certain numbers where dramatically. It's meant to be this big, devastating, pouring out your heart kind of situation and just people cheering in the middle of long held notes. And I went, okay, so we're fully out of the drama of it now. It's fully a concert, which, you know, whatever. That's part of the whole thing people said about this production in general. But then you cannot tell me that the number moves you because you're not. You're not applauding the emotion and the storytelling on a high note. You're applauding the high note and you can't. I'm sorry, you can't convince me otherwise. You can do a whole bunch of gobbledygook like I do on this podcast. I will still smell your bullshit. What I love that Casey does. I have some notes on the London pro shot. Part of it is how it's filmed. I don't think it's. It's perfect. There's a. It's very heavily edited and sometimes that works really nicely. And other times I'm like, we can just stay on this shot for another three seconds. I. I get very perturbed when pro shots want to be movies so badly. And I'm like, there's a sweeter spot. I think you need to be more of a stage capture with benefits than trying to actually be a full blown movie. Because you never will be. You'll never be glamour, but. And then, you know, there's a couple of accent pieces that are not great. Like, I think Jamie Parker is wonderful in it. His American accent is very Kermit the Frog. Just, you know, I am the one who held you. And he's so good that I hate to say it because it sounds like that I'm nagging on his performance. I'm not. It's just. Listen to him. Listen to him in his American accent. I'm sorry, but you hear Kermit.

[Brian Nash]

So who is the human in the Muppet next to normal.

[Matt Kopf]

I mean, I hate to say it, I think it's Diana. I think that's the only way to make it palatable. She's the human and everyone else is a Muppet. It's what makes her crazy.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, maybe. Maybe that's the world she's creating. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Unless it's Natalie, but. I know. Or Doctor Magic.

[Brian Nash]

Or it's the Doctor. Yeah. I think it's Doctor magic.

[Matt Kopf]

When everyone else is a Muppet.

[Brian Nash]

Everyone else is a Muppet. I mean, Piggy being Diana is kind of hysterical, but. Sure.

[Matt Kopf]

Especially when Casey picks up that chair and starts swinging it. That's something Piggy would do, But. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. I think that's my only other real qualm is other than the camera angles and then some of the accent work. The amount of emotion that that production has is astounding. There are a couple of times where I'm like, I don't think we need to sob here. It's there.

[Brian Nash]

There's a lot of sobbing.

[Matt Kopf]

There's a lot of sobbing. And I would say 90% of it is. There are a couple moments, and who knows, it might be that people were getting emotional because they filmed it towards the end of the run. They filmed it over a couple of days. So I'm sure there's also a lot of exhaustion in there. I'm sure there are moments that Eleanor Worthington Cox wasn't necessarily crying on the eight show a week, but because it was the 12th take of the scene,

[Brian Nash]

she's like, please let me go home. Yeah. She's just like, stop it. They're making British equity money. I mean, come on.

[Matt Kopf]

I know it's roof. It's roof, but otherwise, I think it's pretty astounding. What I love about Casey's performance, and I love it about. About it in the beginning. And I don't want to disregard what Alice did, because I want to make it clear. When Alice opened the show, the whole narrative around her performance was how, like, wild and organic and raw it was. You know, you didn't see a performance like this in a musical often, and it was you. There is that energy to it. But also, Alice did not come out the gate manic in the opening. Rewatching that production at the library, I was surprised how many times Gryff wanted to surprise the audience, like, with twists and a couple of things, I think, for me, undermined the emotional potency of the show because of that. And part of it is Diana. Alice plays it very. I hate to say calm, but a little calm at the beginning of Just Another Day. And so the bread sandwich making becomes this twist about her. Like, at first you think she's just sort of a little eccentric. She says weird things. She says, happy Easter. Cause the calendar's still on April. But then she starts to get manic and it's like, oh, no, something's wrong here, Casey. Something's wrong. Off the bat, it's not overdone, but you can tell she's. She's in the middle of an episode already. The way she's overly sexual with Dan. The way she's not even just of offering sex, but like, even after they've had sex, she's. She's just being a little too much. And Natalie can clock in when she says she's on fire this morning. And it's sort of. It gives you this insight of who Dan is without even having to do the asides. Maybe that's a great way to solve it. Of just like we're seeing something's already off with Diana. And Dan's kind of just breezing past it. Natalie's clocking it. But she's also used to her mother being this way. So she's not necessarily sure if it's an episode or if it's just her mom being her mom. And Gabe's not acknowledging any of it because Gabe is not real.

[Brian Nash]

Is a ghost.

[Matt Kopf]

He's a twin ghost.

[Brian Nash]

Ghost boys will make it tragic. I don't know.

[Matt Kopf]

I don't know. We'll come up with a theme song about twink goats. We'll do it at some point, and we'll have the AI voice of Shirley Bassey sing it. So when Casey's doing the sandwiches, rather than being a twist, it becomes a culmination of everything that's been building up to that number. That number has a frantic energy in the London production that I never felt it had in the original. And part of it is the design. It's very stark lighting. The whole thing takes place in the house. There's a turntable. We all know I'm a whore for a turntable. But also just the way that Casey plays that number and builds up to it, it becomes this inevitable conclusion. Like she's been building up to this. And I also just love that when the number ends and they're watching her, the way she says, everything is good. I'm just making sandwiches on the floor. With Alice, it was done sort of as a punchline. She, like, realizes that she's lost the thread for a minute. She goes, everything's fine. I'm just making sandwiches on the floor. But Casey's still making the sandwiches, and she's. And in her mind, it all makes sense. And this was a video I was watching of someone talk about this as they were sort of reacting to the video. They said, the thing about having these manic highs is. And what makes it scary to you is everything makes sense to you. And the moment you realize it's making sense to no one else is when it gets terrifying, because then you can't trust yourself anymore. And so that is sort of what Casey is playing of. Like, everything is always going to make sense to Diana until someone points out that it doesn't. And that's when she gets. You see, like, the switch go off in her brain of like, oh, shit, I just had an episode and I didn't even realize it. And I love that. And I. And that carries over to the scenes where she's having pain and confusion and frustration. I just. Yeah, I know. I just really like it. You watch it. And I'm like, yep, that's what Casey Levy can do. And I wish Broadway would use it more.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep. And maybe we'll get it. I don't know if we are. The. The rumor is no. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

It keeps going back and forth. The rumor was that it was coming and then that it wasn't, and then that it was, but only with her. Her. And that they were going to hold off until the Tonys to announce it, and then it was off again. Then there was a rumor that Pink was doing it with her daughter. Yep. Which I kind of call bullshit on.

[Brian Nash]

A, because I don't think Pink wants to do eight shows a week. B, Pink is not an actress in any real way. Like, has not done a lot of television or film or theater.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. We have never seen Pink put in work as an actress. It. Maybe she has the goods. I don't know. But we've never seen it. And I don't know if she even knows that she has it.

[Brian Nash]

And this would be a heavy fucking lift for your first thing to be like, can I act? Let me do this devastating. Like, in depth. Like, heavy. Heavy lift.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. A role that has destroyed trained actresses in the last 17 years.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, several. And that was the thing with Alice's original performance. It was kind of a performance that we had not seen since Tanya in Caroline or change. Just a woman throwing herself full push into the piece.

[Matt Kopf]

Keep talking sexy to me, Brian. Talk more about Tanya, Pink and Caroline R. Change.

[Brian Nash]

That performance devastated me and, you know, then got to know Tanya later on and work with her on a bunch of stuff. Last musical I ever did in New York was Tanya's production of Mother Courage.

[Matt Kopf]

And that's what turned you off of doing theater in New York every day.

[Brian Nash]

That's why I basically stopped doing theater in New York. Go read the Times articles. But Alice's performance was just so. Just guttural and. And brilliant. And so to see Casey do that kind of work while still being able to just like maintain it vocally and. But still be fully emotionally accessible was. It's gorgeous. It's really lovely. So I hope she gets to do it.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. And it's really fucking hard to do because when we talk about healthy singing, which we should always prioritize, I want people to have long vocal careers. And I've. I've also talked about, you know, certain scores for me that are really only thrilling when there is that little bit of danger to it. I said before, I don't actually know if I think Dead Girl Walking is a good song or if it's just that Barrett Wilburd weed and her freak voice does it for me on that song. And. Or like, I actually genuinely think that Evita is a phenomenal score or if it's just that Patti Lupone and her freak ass 29 year old voice could do what it could do. Because really, no other woman after Patty has been able to thrill me on that score. The only one who's been able to do it since is Rachel Zegler.

[Brian Nash]

Rachel Zegler.

[Matt Kopf]

But healthy, healthy, healthy, healthy.

[Brian Nash]

Which.

[Matt Kopf]

Which is craziness to me.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, I went back and saw Evita the next day. Like, I went to go see Evita because I'm like, okay, I should go see this. And was so thrilled with how it was sung that, like, I had a slot open for another show the next day in London. I'm like, I could go see Benjamin Button. I'm like, or I could camp out at the box office and see if a single becomes available to see Evita again. And went back the next day and it was. It's unbelievably thrilling the way she's singing that score.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, that was.

[Brian Nash]

And it's beautifully placed.

[Matt Kopf]

That was another one. Evita was starting three or three weeks after I left London, and I regret it to this day.

[Brian Nash]

Should have gone back, bitch. It should have gone back.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, you know, maybe I'll finally get to see it as a drama desk about it. The thing about the ECT that I want to just mention to people, because this was sort of, this is a hot bun discussion with the show is it is often said that when you do ECT there is some temporary memory loss, emphasis on the temporary. And it's usually short term. They often say when you, there's like a whole, whole, there's a whole section in the Mayo Clinic website talking about like, here's what ECT actually is, here's how we do it, like, here's why you shouldn't be afraid of it. And, and like here are all the concerns people have and we understand, but here's blah, blah, blah, blah. So like you are sedated, you are, you are given muscle relaxants, you are, you know, it's very short piece, short moments, very low current, blah, blah, blah. And they say, yeah, you wake up, you're confused for a few hours, like you may not remember where you are. Eventually it'll all come you to back. Sometimes you get, you know, memory loss. It's tends to be short term and a lot of it comes back and they, they say like in very rare cases, a couple of months will go missing and in extraordinarily rare cases, a couple of years. It seems like 0.001% of patients have a 19 year gap and Diana's the one 19 year. And what the show talks about, which is, which doctors have also said is, is true, is it's selective amnesia, that it's primarily patients will subconsciously lose the memories of the traumatic events that can sometimes exacerbate their mental health. And so for someone like Diana, that starts with the loss of Gabe and that is why it's such a large, large block. Now is it super realistic? Not necessarily. Is it possible? Sure, a lot of things are possible, but the show makes it a point to. Well, I was gonna say, I don't even think they make it a point, but the very fact that Diana starts to regain her memories and the very fact that once the Gabe quota is unlocked by Dr. Madden, because again, Dan will not, doesn't want to bring it up to her. He wants, he keeps saying in time, we'll tell her about it in time. And then, then Madden is the one who reveals to her that she had a son and then it all sort of comes flooding back. She also is kind of in a more balanced place in Act 2. She's, she is, she's able to hold these coherent conversations with Natalie and with Dan in a way that I don't think she was really ever able to in Act 1. And so I hate to say this, I don't know if this sounds controversial or not. In a lot of ways, next to normal kind of of shows you that the ECT worked a little bit. And I think that a lot of audiences misinterpret it of like she has the memory loss of it. ECT is a hack and. And this show is putting a dangerous stigma on. On electroshock therapy and bipolar disorder. I'm like, I don't know it like they're using a lot of dramatic license. But she does end the show in a better place than she was. And I don't think it's in spite of the ect. I do think it actually helped. The ECT gave her the clarity to understand her misdiagnosis from years past and give her a clarity to try something new going forward. Is it dangerous? Who knows? But as I said to Adam Elsbury in Landing the Piazza, this is two deep dives back to back about mothers ignoring medical advice.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, maybe. Oh, that's it. Maybe Gabe got kicked by a horse.

[Matt Kopf]

That's what it was. But this time in the stomach. It was a bowel obstruction.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's why you don't bring an eight month old to a petting zoo.

[Matt Kopf]

And that's why you always leave a note.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. I mean, the thing is, yes, she does end up in a much better place. And it did. Kind of forgetting Gabe entirely gave her a way to approach him in a different way and let him go.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

In a way that she couldn't before. So the point of, especially when they were first talking about writing the show about ECT was that they wanted to be critical of it. Instead, they wrote a piece that does show that it kind of was effective in this case.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. Whether they meant it or not, I. I don't know. I don't know. But I watch it and I go it. To say that it worked implies that there's one, like, cure all thing for mental health. There isn't. It's a constant. It's something that you live with and it's a constant that you have to keep working with. And sometimes the right medication only works for 10 years and then all of a sudden your brain chemistry gets too used to it and then something else happens, you know. And I do think that in this case it does help her, whether anyone in the show openly says it or not, because as you said, yeah. She's able to approach the Gabe trauma objectively first. And as she remembers it objectively, she then starts to live in it again and then is able to fight for the closure that she never got and speak on behalf of herself in a way that she never was able to before, which I really admire. But that also kind of then exposes is the Diana Dan relationship, which is an interesting one. Some people like to say that Dan is the villain of this piece. Some people like to say it's Gabe. Some people like to say there is no villain. I like the idea that there is no villain of this show. I think it's everyone doing what they think is their best and learning that maybe they had the wrong mentality for what their best was was all along. How would you describe Dan as a person and then how he is with Diana?

[Brian Nash]

Look, everyone in this piece is just trying to get through their. Another day. It only hurts when I breathe. It only hurts when I work. It only hurts when I. All those lines in the open.

[Matt Kopf]

It only hurts when I say.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. It only hurts that she's holding a

[Matt Kopf]

frying pan, by the way. Way.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Which the thing is like, I. It's interesting that Gabe's line is. It's. It's only. It only hurts when I'm here.

[Matt Kopf]

That's his first. It only hurts when I'm here.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

And then she says, it only hurts when he goes, yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Which is interesting. Like, it does. It does play more into, like the. The Jack Wolf London version of. He's trying, like, Gabe is trying to get something. He's trying to get basically back to the land of the living. And that when he's kind of removed from that, he's devastated. Sitting on the upper platform. Oh, P. S. By the way, one note. I don't need the band on stage for every rock musical. I don't need it. I don't fucking need it. I don't understand why, you know, we did in the original production, but now every production of Next to Normal has to have the band on stage in the upper level of the house.

[Matt Kopf]

House. Yeah. I found it distracting in the London production as well. Especially because they have the screens and they keep going up and down and up and down. I'm like, just. I want to live with the characters.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Why is Gabe hanging out in the drum room? Fucking close it. Like it's.

[Matt Kopf]

Drummers are hot, Brian. And let. And let Gabe get his. His. His boy.

[Brian Nash]

Look, I only know a few gay drummers, and they're great. They're lovely.

[Matt Kopf]

They know what to do with their hands.

[Brian Nash]

They do. And they've got good rhythm and you know, they can bang it out. So shout out to Justin Tambini in London. Hi. My favorite, like one of my favorite gay drummers in the world. Like. Well, he's. But whatever. He should have played that show. I'm sure Jack would have enjoyed that. But. Yeah, so side note, if you're directing next to normal, hide the band. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. So we're talking about Dan. Dan. So look, he is just trying to get through and if we're going ahead with the kind of. Of theory of everyone being a representation of different ways to deal with grief, yes, he is in denial and he's going to try to get through this and he's going to try to make things okay for her. As someone who's been in a long term relationship with someone who had some undiagnosed severe mental health issues. Yeah, you're just trying to get through that day and trying to make them okay in any way that you can and be a stabilizing force. And he thinks the best way to do that is to just pretend that it's fine. And yes, we'll do whatever we have to do. We'll go see another doctor. We will go and, you know, get new meds and we'll make it better. We're just gonna make this better. And his. It's gonna be good. And like that little optimistic fanfare that happens at the top of it is the way he's gonna get through every day. He's going to shunt aside whatever he was feeling in order to make sure she's okay and to try to make things stable for Nat. So I don't think he's a villain at all. Is what he's doing misguided? Absolutely. But he's just trying to make it okay at any cost. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

I think we get a brief flashback of them as college undergrads when she's pregnant and you see that he has much more passion for the idea of them getting married and having this baby than she does. And she says, you know, when the baby came, it all made sense. And I think that what surprised her is how naturally she gravitated towards motherhood. But Dan, I think, was always in. In on this more than she ever was. And the love she has for him I think developed over time, but also never quite the way that it needed to be. And I also think they also added a song for Dan in between second stage and Irina, which is the. I think it's called I Was Here, I Was Here. Versaille, which has a great reveal in the Broadway staging. It's one of. It's one of my favorite things that Griff does, which is because they talked about how the audience never really understood the gravity of Diana trying to take her own life. And so when Dan goes back to the house to clean up, he's on the chair that Diana was in, and he's wiping the chair, puts his hand in the bucket and rings the. And drains it, and blood comes out. And I just remember the entire audience going. Because it was such. You weren't expecting it. Cause he first did it with water, then goes on the chair, puts it inside, and then drags out. I have to imagine that there were two rags in that bucket. One had water and one had blood. Yeah. Cause it's just. It's so good. But it was one of those moments where he's doing it sort of. He's. He's not, like, devastated when he's doing it. He's kind of pushing through, like, he's soldiering on in a lot of ways. And I know that Dan. It's very clear that Dan loves Diana so much, but also, I think he's yearning for the woman that he fell in love with all these years ago and is hoping that every time that they try something new, it will get closer to who she once was. And it's also hard to see a person that you love in pain so much and you want to help them, but then over the years, you just become used to that person being the person in pain, and then you start to kind of take on a new role, which is like, kind of their savior. Have you, Brian, Are you a Heartstopper Boy? No.

[Brian Nash]

Yes.

[Matt Kopf]

Yes.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, absolutely.

[Matt Kopf]

Are you fully up to date?

[Brian Nash]

I have not watched the movie.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay. Have you read all the books, then?

[Brian Nash]

No.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay.

[Brian Nash]

So I've just seen the series.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay. So I don't. I'll. I don't want to spoil too much, but Charlie and Nick go through their biggest rough patch in the movie, slash, the final book of the. Of the series. And one of the things is. I mean, this part isn't a spoiler for you. Charlie's had a lot of issues leading up to this movie, and. And actually his. His discussion of when he's in the health facility saying, you know, part of me wonders if I originally didn't want to get better, not because I didn't want to be healthy, but because the idea of putting in that work just sounded so exhausting. It felt easier to just stay where I was. That is kind of. That was a breakthrough for me in sort of locking in on Diana. But because of all of those years with Nick and Charlie together of, you know, Nick being Charlie's protector from bullies, Nick helping Charlie through his eating disorder. And then like Charlie in the. In the movie, he's really kind of blossoming. He's, you know, doing well in school, he's coming up, he has a job. He's. He's doing a lot of things that you should do. He's growing up. And while Nick is very happy for him, Nick is also kind of realizing that so much of his life has been wrapped around. Wrapped up in being Charlie's protector. And rather than create more things for his own life of like, okay, now maybe I should get a job, maybe I should. He. He ends up falling into a depression because he's like, if Charlie doesn't need me, who am I anymore? And who am I to him? Because the, you know, we're together because he needed me. I still need him to need me. And I find that same mentality with Dan here of like, if I'm not here to help her, who am I? Who am I even to her? I need her to need me. So while he does want her to get better, and he's never going to do anything to make her not get better, it's also he's now used to the idea of being the savior and being the protector. And I think that. I just think that that's not. That that's something that he prides himself on so much as that that's part of his normal now and he's not even aware of it.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. He spent 18 years being her caretaker, sole provider for this family. And he. Diana can't drive.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Like, he's literally the driving force in the family, so. Because she fucking can't. And Natalie doesn't have her license yet. Well, maybe she does.

[Matt Kopf]

I think she's got her learner's. No, she does. I think she does have her license because they talk about Diana teaching Natalie to drive. And they ran over the kids cat, right?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, they ran over the cat. And then like, she's. Well, here's the question. So there's a moment where Diana at the end is like, okay, I'm gonna take you to your dance.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

How?

[Matt Kopf]

It's a great question. Well, so first thing is, it's. It appears that Natalie drives Diana to her doctor. That is right.

[Brian Nash]

I have to Take my mom to her doctor. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Part of the reason why Diana calls out for Natalie is she, you know, needs someone to take her. So they go, I don't know. Maybe in that moment, Diana decides she's going to drive Natalie. Now, I don't know. It's just.

[Brian Nash]

Don't, don't, don't.

[Matt Kopf]

Don't do it. Don't you do it.

[Brian Nash]

Don't do it.

[Matt Kopf]

I don't know.

[Brian Nash]

Don't you do it, little girl.

[Matt Kopf]

I know, but also, like, maybe. Maybe Natalie is the one who drives. And it's more that Diana is escorting her there. It's. It's just the idea of, I'm your mother, so you may be driving, but I'm taking you. But then the question becomes, how does Diana get home? But these are things, Brian. These are things. These are insignificant details. But I think what I love about that interaction with her and Natalie, because it is a almost completely rewritten scene from second stage. The dramatic, dramatic moment is. Remains like the. Nothing in the story really changes with next to normal. They. They kept the plot pretty intact, but they would take other cracks at how to get in there. And that scene between her and Natalie, I always enjoy, because you understand, just from the way that it's written in the way that, you know, both Alice and Casey have played it, that she is in a more stable place. Maybe for how long, who knows? But in this moment, she is. Is. She's got her feet on the ground and she's able to talk concisely and clearly. And Natalie wants it, but she also can't trust it because for 16 years, that hasn't been her life with Diana. And she still wants. She still wants to be the daughter in this moment. And she's. She's saying what she needs to say, which is like, basically, you've been a terrible mom to me for 16 years. Not because of your. Of where you are mentally, because of like, all the other things that have. That have contributed to this, just like with the Gabe of it all. And Diana doesn't deny it. She doesn't argue with her. But she does say the thing that no one was willing to say, which is exactly what happened with Gabe. And that kind of. By giving Natalie that information that she never had before for is sort of an act of trust, you know, of.

[Brian Nash]

Of.

[Matt Kopf]

I don't know. My sister sometimes will complain when she's like, why don't our parents, like, tell us the truth about this situation and this going on? I'll be like, well, because we're. They're kids and they still think of us that way. And she's like, right, but I'm 39. I'm like, yeah, yeah. I'm like, but it doesn't matter how old we get, our parents are always going to think of us that way. And so I think Diana giving Natalie this, this closed off piece of information for the first time is a way of saying, like, I am opening up to you more and trusting you more. And that is. That is the only investment I can give you right now. But take it and know that that's what I'm doing. And Natalie accepts it, which then I think is how Natalie's able to then briefly be the parent again for Dan at the end of the show. I love, I do really love. I really love when Diana leaves and, you know, Dan and Gabe have their moment and Natalie shows up and Dan has finally breaks down. He finally, he. He finally has his real big cry, which he's always needed. This fills up this whole entire show. And for the first time, Natalie's not thinking about, you know, her own pain anymore. Because it's always been like, mom, like, your mother's going through something.

[Brian Nash]

Ugh.

[Matt Kopf]

But it's always her or like, Natalie, we need to talk about this. I don't want to. And then she sees just how much her dad's been bottling up and she comes to his aid and she begins the song alighted like, okay, let's start slow. Let's turn on some lights. You can't sit here all alone. I always get very moved when people show up for people and stuff. It doesn't happen often in life, so when it happens in shows, I'm very happy.

[Brian Nash]

Like, that moment is so lovely. And I'm really glad that that's part of the reason why they cut it from the top of the second. Second stage version. So our first introduction to Light is Natalie basically turning on the light for her father. And that's another moment in London where when Nellie says something along the lines of like, okay, I guess it's just us now. And you watch Gabe break and it's like it's finally his exclusion from the family. Like, he's been let go.

[Matt Kopf]

And then what does Jack Wolf do? He walks past Eleanor Worthington Cox, lightly puts his hand on her hand, and then walks away. And Eleanor Worthington Cox does like a quick.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

She's like, the fuck was that?

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Which great. Because she's the only one who hasn't, like, really interacted with him.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Like in an. In a Kind of text way it is. It did also kind of remind me of what they're doing at Rocky Horror now. Now with the callbacks, with the asshole and slut callbacks. Because I saw first preview and they. No one knew what to do. And so now when somebody calls out asshole or slut at Brennan and Jad, Janet and Brad, Brannon and Jad. Did I just have a stroke? Do you smell toast through the screen?

[Matt Kopf]

Just another day.

[Brian Nash]

Day. Jesus Christ. So when the audience yells asshole and slaughter at Janet and Brad, they just kind of look around like. Like they've heard a. Like a whisper of a ghost somewhere. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

No, I love it.

[Brian Nash]

I love it so much. A great bit.

[Matt Kopf]

It always sounds. It's. It's.

[Brian Nash]

They're. They're.

[Matt Kopf]

The reaction is exactly that. I always described it as like they. They heard something in the pipes like, like in the wall. They're like, what was that?

[Brian Nash]

It's so.

[Matt Kopf]

It's so good.

[Brian Nash]

It's so funny. It's so good. And have you seen it? You saw with Sherry? Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, I want to go back to see it with Sherry. I. If I. If I can find a way to do it. I want to see with Sherry before Stephanie, Andrew and Luke leave. Because I'm sure. I'm sure that, you know, Kevin and. And Lorna will all be good. But like, I. I was such a fan of Stephanie and I saw it, right? I saw the night before it opened, and I thought that she had it figured out. And I'm sure it's even better now.

[Brian Nash]

It clicked in a way, because I saw Sheri's first performance in. So it was still the understudy on Verclon Columbia. And all of a sudden, the show clicked in a way that it really had not early on in previews, mainly because, you know, Sheri knows how to set a fucking tone. And it is perfect.

[Matt Kopf]

I think we talked about this because you. Okay, so you did send me the audio of Sherry. Sorry, sorry. He didn't do it on the.

[Brian Nash]

No, no.

[Matt Kopf]

But I had said my. One of the biggest problems with the original company with Rocky Horror, and I enjoy my Juliette Lewis. She's not a musical theater girly. It doesn't. She started that show on an uneasy foot and ended it on an uneasy foot. So even all the goodwill that had been built up after Science fiction, and it took a while, but, like, we eventually got there and then it all kind of dissipated with the finale. And I was like, ugh. And I just imagined, because Sherry is Sherry and knows what to do,

[Brian Nash]

you

[Matt Kopf]

Build the goodwill earlier so you can enjoy the show earlier. And then you don't. It doesn't dissipate at the end. You're just like, yeah. And we end with Sherry and her big old tits.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. And the thing is, like, Sherry knows how to do. It's kind of like what she was doing in that first reveal in Queen of Versailles, where when, you know, the screen swiped aside and you saw Kristen, and Kristen was just sitting there begging the audience to love her and. And the screen swiped aside and Sheri was just kind of staring vacantly out at the audience. I'm like, oh, you have a point of view on this woman. Juliet Lewis was so deadpan in science fiction, she might as well have actually been dead and just vocally uncomfortable. Sheri is giving, like, glazed kind of. Michael Rennie was like, I am setting a tone, and then I'm gonna squelch a bunch of E flats at you. Of course she.

[Matt Kopf]

Because she.

[Brian Nash]

Kevin.

[Matt Kopf]

And she always shows.

[Brian Nash]

Did you see her thing yesterday with her, like, in the car?

[Matt Kopf]

Adam sent it to me. Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Jesus Christ. Because I saw Aida in Chicago out of town before it came in. And, you know, opening numbers happening. And then we get to. This is the story of a love that Flores and a ton of cane of lovers. She, like, belts an F. And I sat bolt upright in my little gay chair, and I was like, who the fuck is this woman? And what is this show? And the I am in and her 30 years later, 25 years later, 25 years later, just on a road trip, just fully scream belting it in the car. Yes.

[Matt Kopf]

If you guys don't know what we're talking about, either join the discord because somebody posted it there or just go to Sierra Boggess. Instagram. She shared it, and Gunkle shared it with me. Listen, in this house, we will always worship Sherry Renee Scott. And I've said this before, there are two double features that shaped who I am. One double feature made me gay. One double feature made me an esoteric fuck. The first one is seeing Marin Maisie and Amy Spanger and Kiss Me Kate and Michael Baress followed, followed by Sheri Renee Scott and Heather Headley and Aida, literally and Adam Pascal, Honestly, both leading men with hairy chests. I think within, like, like, four months, three or four months of each other, I'm pretty sure that's what made me gay. And then four years later, Caroline or change in May of 2004, followed by landing the piazza in April of 2005, turned me into the theater kid. I am so that's. Yeah, that's what you have to blame everybody.

[Brian Nash]

Sexy, squelting, esoteric fuckery. Clearly.

[Matt Kopf]

And. And again, just two deep dives in a row where I'm just like. And Michael Buress, it's just. Oh, I know.

[Brian Nash]

Lean into a niche. But also Amy Spanger and Sherry Renee Scott, both early Diana Goodmans.

[Matt Kopf]

True.

[Brian Nash]

Ooh.

[Matt Kopf]

You know who'd be a good Diana Goodman? Heather Headley.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, that placement.

[Matt Kopf]

Heather motherfucking heather.

[Brian Nash]

Mr. Mountains. Like, just every vowel is opposite. Yeah. Yep. But which.

[Matt Kopf]

Which works for that role? I'm sorry, does. It's. I think there are multiple ways to get into Diana, and I think the way that Casey does it is perfect for Casey. And what I love about what Casey does is because so much of act one is so manic and messy, the safety of the voice, I think, keeps you from getting uncomfortable.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, there's a difference between.

[Matt Kopf]

Between being, like, uncomfortable for, like, being pressured by a. A piece of storytelling that then makes you learn things about yourself or reveal things about yourself. And then there's the uncomfortable of, like, I'm not uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable for you.

[Brian Nash]

And.

[Matt Kopf]

And I think Casey has that right balance. Alice had a really strong balance early in the run. But I. I agree. I think as it got further along, things started to fall off the rails. I would love to hear Rachel just, you know. You will. Thank you. Thank you. I'm. I'm interested to know what Christian Noel was like she did in Connecticut at Hartford, I believe.

[Brian Nash]

I'm sure it was not nice.

[Matt Kopf]

I'm sure it was perfectly fine. I read that she did it. She did, like, the first major regional production, I think. No, that's not true. But she did a major regional production. And I'm always going, what was she like? But now I'm just wondering, you know, what would Heather bring to it? Sherry, unfortunately, is past. Is past the age. Because the thing is, Diana and Dan are younger than people realize. They are in their early 40s.

[Brian Nash]

And that is the thing that does freak me out a little bit. Like, Casey Levy doesn't seem like a Diana to me. She seems too young. And then you do the math, and you're like, oh, fuck. Like, Natalie Joy Johnson just played it recently. I'm like, natalie Joy Johnson is not anybody's mom. And then you do the math, and then it's like, okay, she's probably a little. She will not mind me saying this. A little older than Alice was when she did. Yeah, she just reads younger because, you know, 46 in these days. Is very different than 46 in 2007. Is very different than 46 in 1953.

[Matt Kopf]

It's true. I mean, listen, Casey takes very good care of herself. And that is. And that is a beautiful thing also is she's only like, what, 44? 45.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. She's like 44.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. She's. I also feel like she's a bit. She's always a bit younger than people think, just because she's been around for, like, 22 years.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Came from. Came from Canada and immediately booked Broadway

[Brian Nash]

and just kept working because she's exceptionally, exceptionally well hydrated. But that said, like, I saw. I saw Natalie do it in At Barrington Stage, and that was a performance that, you know, she sang the hell out of it. And the acting of it. Again, get a comic actor to do a devastating piece and you're gonna be surprised as hell.

[Matt Kopf]

Listen, we talk about this all the time. Of. Some of the best actors have been able to master comedy and drama or started in comedy and then threw us all for a wrench. Sally Field, one of the best criers in film, used to be the Flying Goddamn Nun. Okay?

[Brian Nash]

That's how we knew it's the Flying Nun.

[Matt Kopf]

Robin Williams of Mork and Mindy fame. Amazing dramatic actor. You know, just.

[Brian Nash]

That's.

[Matt Kopf]

Or fucking Emma Thompson used to be in sketch comedy.

[Brian Nash]

Like, that's.

[Matt Kopf]

Look at what we're talking about. Mia, the. The last thing I wanted to ask you about, the material itself, the Gabe thing. Of. Of. Because what makes the reveal of Gabe happens early in the show after I miss the mountains and Diana's offer for meds, and they're doing. It's going to be good. And it all culminates with Natalie's boyfriend Henry, who we haven't spoken of once this entire episode.

[Brian Nash]

He's lovely. He's.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, Henry. I think Henry's like a very sweet, soft heart who I. I'll be honest, I've always kind of never totally bought that relationship on paper. It's really up to the actors to sell it to me. And I did think Adam Chandler Barrot was so adorable on the Broadway production. I'm a little less up on the guy in the London cast, but I think he and Eleanor have very good chemistry. And so I. I'm not as big on his performance, but I'm okay with the relationship, if that makes sense.

[Brian Nash]

I'm fine with it. I think Adam really made that performance, made that role work in a way that I've rarely seen work that well since. It's.

[Matt Kopf]

Well because he's also often meant to be comedic relief. He's. He's a stoner and he's. He like breaks Natalie out of Rochelle. And there are things he says that it's very easy to not get a laugh on that Adam made seem so easy. And the. Yeah, it's like just certain lines that I've watched other Henry's not get the laugh on. Like towards the end of the. Have you heard from your mom? Yeah, she's with my grandparents. Beat. Do they exist and like. Or like, do they actually exist? And I've heard like the guy in London says it's sort of like as a joke and the audience kind of chuckles. And I saw it done in Brooklyn and the. Henry was like trying to be super dorky about it and the audience didn't know how to feel about that. But I just remember Adam asking it so earnestly that the audience had permission to laugh because they were like, thank you for saying what we were all thinking. Where he's like, well, then he should be.

[Brian Nash]

He should be our in. He should be like our. Our conduit to this fucked up family. Yeah, but this is to us.

[Matt Kopf]

So this is to say, yeah, he's. It's the easy way to get exposition out is you invite someone new who doesn't know anything or. Or you know, in a friend group who doesn't like. It's the brilliant thing about Sex and the City is always in those friend groups when one of them has a story going on. You always have three girls at the table, know the story, but one doesn't. So it's like Miranda doesn't know. But. So like Carrie will begin and Charlotte will like add a detail so it doesn't sound so exposition heavy. It sounds like a conversation.

[Brian Nash]

But.

[Matt Kopf]

So Henry doesn't really know the family. And when he shows up, Diana comes out with a birthday cake. And I remember Adam used to get a laugh on this. Cause he would look around and go like, huh, Whose birthday cake? And you just saw Jen Damiano just go. She played it very annoyed. My brothers. I remember Eleanor Worthington Cox. She was much more kind of. It was like the floor fell out from under her when she said my brothers. Because in London it kind of is implied that this might be the first time that this has been openly done by Diana. Whereas on Broadway it felt a little bit more like it's happened in the past. And I want to chat with you about a bit more before we get to the final conclusion of this episode. Final conclusion. What. What am I But there's only. There's only one conclusion, Brian. But yeah, it's.

[Brian Nash]

It's the.

[Matt Kopf]

I didn't know you had a brother. I don't. He died when I was a baby. And that it's just important to resay that on Mike because some people be like, but I don't know.

[Brian Nash]

Next normal.

[Matt Kopf]

How is it we find out that Gabe is. Is a ghost twink. Natalie tells us and you should always trust an ingenue.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yep. A sad, sad perfectionist ingenue.

[Matt Kopf]

Yes.

[Brian Nash]

But.

[Matt Kopf]

So my question for you is, in your interpretation, the Gabe stuff has this. Do we think this is a new occurrence or is this something that has always been kind of happening with Diana?

[Brian Nash]

The only. Okay. I think it's new in that. In its frequency and how much it's manifesting. I think it's kind of always. He might have always been there as a little bit of a voice in her head, but now he's just really showing up as subconsciously he is going to turn 18 and leave the house. So she's trying to hold on to him as long as possible. I do think it's manifested a little bit just in that she. Jennifer. No, Natalie knows that it's his birthday. Like this is a day that's known in this house.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. And yet if we don't ever talk

[Brian Nash]

about him and he's something that doesn't exist, I don't know why she would know that it was his birthday.

[Matt Kopf]

That's the thing that always confused me of has this happened before? Is this a date that everyone knows but we just don't talk about about. Or is Natalie maybe putting the pieces together of it's no one's birthday, but mom has a cake. Oh God, it must be Gabe's birthday. I think if I were doing the dramaturgy for a production or just flat out directing a production, I think there is a lot of. A lot of meal to be had of this idea of Natalie being told at an early age that she had a brother who died when, before she was born. And over the years she would ask a question here and there and only get one answer out of every like 10 and then just eventually stopped asking. But it is still information that it's all this information that everybody knows. But there's also something kind of, I don't know, it's kind of bleak about if it is actually Gabe's birthday on that day. Day, how they're all acting in general before Diana comes out with the cake. Like just no acknowledgement at all. And And. And the bubbliness of that song and of. Because, like, Dan has to know if it's his birthday. Dan must remember. Is it. Is he also not being manic in the song to push it so far down. Has Natalie just forgotten? Because it's been 16 years and she never knew Gabe. And Henry's. Henry's just purely giddy because he doesn't know that Gabe fucking exists.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. And he's just meeting his girlfriend's family for the first time. Mm.

[Matt Kopf]

Because they've been dating for 16 weeks.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Nine weeks. Nine weeks and three days.

[Matt Kopf]

Something like that. Sorry. Sorry, everybody. What is time? I just know.

[Brian Nash]

It's.

[Matt Kopf]

It's, it's. It's.

[Brian Nash]

It's been a minute.

[Matt Kopf]

It's been a few. It's been at least two months. Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

And in high school time, that's like basically a year.

[Brian Nash]

That is forever. Um, yeah. I mean, I think that is. That does contribute to Dan's mania about it. It even whether or not he's acknowledging or really remembers that that's the day. That's part of the reason why he's so, like, manic about keeping keeping the tone light, keeping it up. But I mean, secrets in a family are weird. Like, I had a brother that I didn't know existed who died before I was born, and I didn't know about it until I was like, probably 8 or 9. And my sister told me and I didn't believe her that there was a kid in between her and me who died like, was born really prematurely and died like hours after he was born. So went to my mom and asked and she acknowledged that it was true and we just never had talked about it and it was never spoken of in my house. And that was like the one conversation we've ever had about it. So secrets and families are. Are weird. There is stuff that is never acknowledged.

[Matt Kopf]

There's also something so it. It. To bury a child in general is a devastation that I do not ever wish to know. It's partly why I don't have kids. Yeah. And also because I have no patience.

[Brian Nash]

But.

[Matt Kopf]

Says the man with a four hour podcast. But the. There is. There is a certain devastation in bearing a child of when they're, when they're an infant before your child can really start to have a personality, to have memories of their own. Right. Of all of the loss, that of time, of just opportunities and all these things. And I think that it's interesting to see how, you know, different parents, you know, treat that of. Do we continually mourn the Child that we lost? Or do we make that a footnote, for lack of a better term? Because a. It's very painful, but also, we need to continue to build upon our lives, and we can't create a shrine to, you know, a very. For a very small moment of time that was extraordinarily devastating. And that is something that I think Dan does of. We have to build. And ultimately, I don't think the idea of building is wrong, but he. They do do it just too soon. Soon. That's. That's the problem of before everyone is ready, they start building a new house. And if we learned anything about building a house on the wrong grounds from Poltergeist, you know, just. It's not. It's no good. The kid you have. No, the kid you do have will go into a closet, and it'll be

[Brian Nash]

really hard to get her out closet into a television. Well, it depends on which version we're watching. Does she always have a television? Does she.

[Matt Kopf]

Does she go into the television? They get her out of the closet in Poltergeist.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Sorry, I'm. I'm confused today. In is out, up is down. Closets or TVs.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Kopf]

And Patti LuPone is now a top.

[Brian Nash]

Apparently Patti LuPone is a verse top on the seas.

[Matt Kopf]

But no, that's just in maritime law on dry land. She is a demon twink bottom.

[Brian Nash]

Yep. Yeah, that also tracks.

[Matt Kopf]

There's. Yeah, there's Vacation Patty and then there's nine to five Patty.

[Brian Nash]

Vacation Patty is fun, you guys. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

My last thing about Next Normal. And I forgot that this was something that always kind of bugged me until I watched London live tape. Because the thing is, the Broadway production, I felt cut against the finale of Light being this big let's all stand and sing number by having staging going on and to kind of bring it full circle, they have this moment where Natalie brings Henry back to the house. They're studying, and as they're singing, everyone's singing Light. And Diana's isolated on a level, and Gabe's on a level. And Dan comes out with a birthday cake for Natalie. So it mirrors the Diana cake, but this time it's real. And I really always liked that moment of Natalie kind of getting acknowledged for, you know, her life now. And I know Jen smiling and laughing for kind of the first time the entire show ever.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

But I loved details like that because my thing is that the London production, for the most part, is actually extraordinarily detailed in all of the intricacies of the characters except For Light, where it actually just becomes like. I hate to say this because I do love what everyone's doing for the most part, but there's a shot of Eleanor right as she's about to sing her solo of Light with Henry. She's like, you're my favorite problem, Henry. And then she just turns right and she goes, but day after day, and it's very college musical theater presentation and it sticks out like a sore thumb because the rest of those performances are so good. So when there's. When shit like that happens again, it's just like so egregious. And that whole number is just everyone now standing forward and Casey's at the center. And it bugs me because that number often is used in, you know, showcases. It has that sort of like. And now we're all set on stage and we sing. It's the Lost Boys. It's fucking. Yeah, it's.

[Brian Nash]

It's the.

[Matt Kopf]

Do you hear the people Sing finale. Which no one has ever been able to do as well as Les Mis ever since. Yeah, but everyone wants to do it. Titanic wants to do it. Ragtime wants to do it. Everybody wants to come forward and be like. And love and.

[Brian Nash]

Is the answer. And we're fine. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

Yes. And like, Light is a beautiful song, but it does have that. Now we're in five part harmony singing about how we made it through the storm. And the original production, I felt, was able to cut against that for the most part in a way that the London production doesn't. And it's just so interesting because in almost every other way, I find that the London production adds even more than the Broadway production did, except for that number. And it's just a shame it's the last number.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yeah. They bought so much goodwill at that point.

[Matt Kopf]

I'm okay.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

I'm sure if I were in the theater watching it, I wouldn't have cared. I just would have cried. But watching it now in my home on my couch with no pants on, furious but sailing.

[Brian Nash]

Not. No, but also that close up of her going day after day, like.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, yeah, it's. They did her. They did her a little dirty with that shot, I find, because again, everyone else, the whole rest of the show, she's doing such wonderful work at that one shot.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

And it could have been like that. Just that one take. She might have done it better in multiple other takes. And that was the take they picked. And I'm sure she looked at it. She was like, seriously, guys, award winning Eleanor Worthington Cox, you are going to give Me.

[Brian Nash]

That shot. Valid. Valid.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay, so as we said, Next Normal did win the Pulitzer. It also won three Tony Awards for score actress and tied for orchestrations with Billy Elliot. One of the few ties in Tony Ward history.

[Brian Nash]

Sure.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay, fine. Closed January 2011 after 733 performances. As we mentioned, it had a national tour also with Alice Ripley, 2017 Theater Works Hard for It, with Christian Noel, 2020 Kennedy center, with Rachel B. Jones and Brandon Victor Dixon. This is clearly the show that caused Covid.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

And then. And then the West, January 2020. Yeah. The thing about this show in terms of its legacy is that whereas it's. It's sort of the inverse of Lighting the Piazza where Adam and I were saying, like, piazza as a show hasn't really affected musical theater. Not a lot of people have tried to make an Another Piazza or something similar to it. But the people involved with Piazza have created a legacy. Like Piazza created a legacy because of the people involved. And I personally find Next Normal is kind of the opposite, where it's like, the show has a major legacy, and it had a major impact on writing and subject matter, and yet I find that a lot of the people involved a little less. So. The biggest impact in terms of people involved is probably Aaron Tveit. Like, this is the show that, yeah, really launched him. And his lack of a Tony nomination was really. Was. Was a thing that people really screamed about at the time. And, you know, Michael Greif remains a very prominent director in musical theater, but, you know, it's. It's this Evan Hansen. But before that, for either show, he had Rent, which is sort of a blank check forever. He had Gray Garden. So that's not even really, really a launching point. It's a launching point for Tom Kidd and Brian Yorkey. And yet. Shall we.

[Brian Nash]

That collaboration. Yeah, yeah. Superhero. What's it called? Superhero.

[Matt Kopf]

Superhero. That's at. Where was that?

[Brian Nash]

Second Stage.

[Matt Kopf]

Second Stage. Yeah. They also have if Then, which is probably their biggest post. Next Normal Success. And I wouldn't personally call that one a success. Sliding Doors in the musical Just. God, I'll never forget the opening of Act 2, where Idina Menzel comes on and she singing, like, stage Directions, where she's, like, standing on a corner opposite of a wedding on 37th and Amsterdam or whatever the fuck the lyrics are. But she's like singing the street address of what's across the Street. I'm like, can we not do that? They did rewrite the Freaky Friday musical for Disney, which Disney liked enough to license and make into a TV Movie with Heidi Blickenstaff. I feel like Heidi has done Next to Normal somewhere.

[Brian Nash]

Speaking of, she has to have.

[Matt Kopf]

They wrote the musical adaptation of the Visitor at the Public, which went nowhere and had a lot of drama behind it. Find it.

[Brian Nash]

Yep.

[Matt Kopf]

Kit has also done Bring it on and Almost Famous, Flying Over Sunset Dave. And so it's just. It's Kit. Tom Kidd has had a lot more success post Next Normal as an arranger and as a music supervisor, which is also what he was doing before Next to Normal. And I. I do think that's where a lot of his talent lies, in taking a lot of music and making it one big cohesive of storytelling sound. But considering how wonderful this score is, Next to Normal, it is kind of. It's. It's. It's frustrating that. That this collaboration has not yielded more consistent results. But, I mean, I feel the same way about Gray Garden, so when I do that deep dive. Get ready, everybody. Whoo.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah. Yeah. I. I wish that. Look, I. I wish I was fine with it if. Then

[Matt Kopf]

what.

[Brian Nash]

Slash now. But.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah.

[Brian Nash]

I don't remember anything about Superhero other than Kate Baldwin being wonderful and Tom Sesma being great.

[Matt Kopf]

Tom Sesame.

[Brian Nash]

That's all I remember.

[Matt Kopf]

Tom Sesma's always great. Why are we. Why are people not talking about Tom Sesma more? Brian Nash.

[Brian Nash]

I don't. Because he's never been given, like, he is the perfect, like. Like secondary or secondary lead or like, random, like, character actor.

[Matt Kopf]

Sure.

[Brian Nash]

And they never get the glory that they need. Still, my favorite Sesma is brilliant and reliable in fucking everything. Yeah.

[Matt Kopf]

He's still my favorite Sweeney that I've seen live.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, yeah, I forgot I did that.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah, he was. I think he was the last one. I saw him and Sally and Triplet do it twice in the pie shop, and they were incredible. Yeah, that's sort of where we are with Next to Normal. I guess with Spring Awakening and Next Normal combined, it becomes this big step forward with rock music in musical theater. And we do have a lot more of it now, I would argue never quite as successfully as this. It starts leaning more into pop, and with Dear Evan Hansen, it becomes like, okay, now we get radio hits and songs that can work outside of context. Because the thing about Next Normal is, other than I miss the mountains, I really don't think any song works out of context. They're. They're wonderful songs to listen to, but I don't think that they. They don't land quite as well in, like, a showcase like, I've watched. I was at Thespians this past year and two years ago, and a girl sang. So anyway, the song that Diana sings when she leaves, and she did a lovely job, but I was like, why this?

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, it's. Vocally, it's. It's a lovely piece vocally, but it doesn't. It's not gonna hit if you're not coming out of the rest of the two hours of the show.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. There are things in this show that I would recommend for, like, class. If you have three actors who want to do the. You don't know, I am the one want to do that for class, like, to work on it. I say fucking go for it.

[Brian Nash]

But if.

[Matt Kopf]

And maybe for like thespians, maybe because it's hard to do scene work, musical scenes in thespians that work out of context. But. But yeah, if you want to, like, do Superboy and the Invisible Girl as a duet for, you know, a concert. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work.

[Brian Nash]

It's two minutes and you're wasting your time.

[Matt Kopf]

And it's a duet for the last 20 seconds.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, yep. No reason.

[Matt Kopf]

Yeah. Anyway, Brian, thank you so much for doing this today.

[Brian Nash]

Of course.

[Matt Kopf]

Thanks for.

[Brian Nash]

Thanks for having me.

[Matt Kopf]

Any last words on Next Normal before we wrap shit up?

[Brian Nash]

The look, I'm glad that they took. They took the time to get it right. They took the time to really lean into what the material was actually saying instead of what they wanted to say about the material initially and about the subject. If you're writing a musical about deep, deep things, lean the fuck in.

[Matt Kopf]

I love that. I think if you're going to do Next to Normal, make sure you cast actors. Like, actors. And this is one of those shows like, for me, like, lachiusa Wild Party, where I'm like, you need an intimacy coordinator and you need a therapist on set.

[Brian Nash]

Yep, yep. There needs to be a therapy dog

[Matt Kopf]

in the room because it's a tough one. And if you're gonna do it right, you're gonna have to go for it. This is not a show you mark. Well, Brian, where can people find you if you want them to find. Find you?

[Brian Nash]

I can be found on the Instagrams at Brian with an IJ Nash. That's about it. I have not updated my website since

[Matt Kopf]

COVID No, don't buy it. Are you doing any. Any shows in town soon?

[Brian Nash]

Soon? I don't know. I've got to book them. Okay, so shortly, I'll post it.

[Matt Kopf]

Brian's shows are fun, guys. He did one at Green Room 42 recently. That was a fuck ton. Of fun. So if he ever is doing one, I highly recommend you go. If you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. Make sure to join the Patreon if you haven't yet to become a company member. For $5 a month you will get your sneak preview of our first exclusive episode next week. The top 50 opening numbers in musical theater history. If you like the podcast, make sure to give us a nice 5 star rating or review. They always, always help with the algorithm. You can f Watch us on YouTube if you'd like. Discord if you want to join the Discord or the substack. Otherwise we will be going dark for most of August. We have a couple of fun that may be popping up throughout August, some fun interviews and whatnot. But yeah, we will be coming back in earnest. Probably mid September, maybe after. Yeah, I think the first episode, the first real episode back will be my London trip. Cause I'm going back to London in September. Ooh, field trips.

[Brian Nash]

Who's earnest?

[Matt Kopf]

Who's earnest?

[Brian Nash]

You said you're going to be coming back in earnest.

[Matt Kopf]

Oh, in earnest.

[Brian Nash]

Oh, you're trying to pretend you're a top.

[Matt Kopf]

So I, I will, I will punch you in the face.

[Brian Nash]

You knew I was gonna bring it back before the end of the episode. You knew. I honestly gotta do a callback. You didn't see it coming. Anyway, like if we're gonna talk about a depressing ass show, we need to like leaven it by the end. Next show that we do needs to be something fun because Jesus Christ.

[Matt Kopf]

First of all, Hamilton and I don't. I'd never found to be a depressing show. That was just a depressing day. This. Sure. This is, this is definitely depressing. Sure.

[Brian Nash]

Yeah, he gets shot at the end and then we're crying about an orphanage. Yeah, it's a real fucking toe tapper.

[Matt Kopf]

Well, yeah, I'm like, yeah, children need to go somewhere where I don't have to see them. An orphanage. Thank you. Thank you for your help.

[Brian Nash]

Eliza.

[Matt Kopf]

Hamilton, the. This was not a depressing day. This was very fun day for a very sad show. And I'm sure there are a lot of fans are going to be furious that this was. Furious that this wasn't three straight hours of only the show. But fuck you all. This is, this is the last episode for a minute. So I just wanted to have some fun. But yeah, no, okay, fine. The next show you do will be, I don't know, Spamalot of the icing of Fiorello. Your next show is gonna be Fiorello. You're welcome.

[Brian Nash]

No, thanks.

[Matt Kopf]

Okay, Brian, we close out every episode with a diva. What diva do you want to close us out with today?

[Brian Nash]

Let us go back to workshop. Workshop Diana Goodman and go back to Sheri Renee Scott, always.

[Matt Kopf]

I think we've closed out with Sherry. Sherry more times this year than combined Sherry closeouts in like previous years. And I'm not mad about it at all.

[Brian Nash]

She's in the zeitgeist. She's back. She's back, you guys.

[Matt Kopf]

She really is. I think we'll close out with Poor Unfortunate Souls this time because I don't think we've ever done that. She's amazing. All right, thank you so much, guys. We'll see you soon. Enjoy the preview next week and then have a good rest of your August. Take it away, Shiri Byee some jetsam Now I got a voice. The bosses on a roll. You pour arms for tonight.