Deep Dive: SHE LOVES ME w/ Leah Horowitz

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: Deep Dive – She Loves Me

with Matt Koplik & Leah Horowitz | June 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Matt Koplik welcomes Broadway performer and vocal coach Leah Horowitz for a passionate, detailed deep dive into She Loves Me—a show near to both their hearts. Together they explore the musical's history, enduring charm, unique place on Broadway, and their personal connections to the piece. The discussion ranges from cast recordings and performance memories to the show’s legacy, subtle humor, and the intricacies of its staging, characters, and music. Expect passionate opinions, Broadway lore, and plenty of colorful language, true to Matt’s tone.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

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Personal Connections to She Loves Me

[02:53 – 07:31]

• Leah’s First Encounter:
  • Saw the 1993 revival as a teen. Sat close enough to feel a deep connection to the cast.
  • Personal development: Was studying to be a soprano, found Amalia’s songs a perfect fit.
  • "I've been singing those songs since I was a teenager. And they're just like, in my body. I want to do the show so bad." [04:28]
• Matt’s Family Ties & First Exposure:
  • Family friend of composer Jerry Bock; inherited a '93 revival show jacket from his grandfather.
  • First saw a regional production that used the Broadway set; always deeply connected to the show and its recordings.

What Makes She Loves Me Unique?

[12:08 – 17:24]

• She Loves Me is described as a "cult musical"—never a major commercial hit, but cherished by theater lovers.
• 1993 Roundabout revival as a turning point; led to renewed popularity, especially in London.
• "Every time it's done, people fall in love with it. But it's never been a show that is, like, swept the community." – Matt [15:06]
• The show’s charm lies in its intimacy, lack of showy chorus numbers, and understated elegance.

The Plot and Its Genealogy

[17:26 – 21:17]

• In essence, it’s a 1930s Hungarian template for You’ve Got Mail: two perfumery co-workers become pen-pal lovers.
• Based on Miklós László's play Parfumerie, and adapted twice into films (The Shop Around the Corner and In the Good Old Summertime) before becoming a musical.
• Reflections on how the various adaptations, from Jimmy Stewart to Judy Garland to Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan, influenced audience perception and how the musical carves its own balanced, witty identity.

Insider Broadway Lore

[21:17 – 31:46]

• Julie Andrews was nearly cast as Amalia; Hal Prince chose Barbara Cook instead, in part to preserve the show’s intimacy and avoid using a "big star."
• Legendary lost film version: Julie Andrews & Dick Van Dyke, directed by Blake Edwards, was canceled after big-budget musical flops soured studios on the genre.
  • "If you're gonna get a movie musical version—those are the two. Those are the two." – Leah [31:43]

Rarity of High School/Community Productions

[31:46 – 33:46]

• The musical’s relatively small size ("not a big, splashy musical") and subtle adult themes make it challenging for community theaters and high schools to approach, stunting its ubiquity.

Character Arcs and Social Themes

[33:03 – 41:46]

• Ilona’s Modern Resonance:
  • Described as the archetype of a "modern gay man"—her arc about self-worth and seeking a genuine connection beyond surface-level attraction reflects contemporary dating wisdom.
  • Discussion around the lyric: "an illiterate girl" in “A Trip to the Library”—debated whether it’s literal or figurative, ultimately favoring the latter.
• Harnick’s Lyrics:
  • Both hosts rave about Sheldon Harnick’s rhyming, humor, and emotional honesty.
  • "The lyrics are amazing...Harnick's lyrics are always just—he's so underrated." – Leah [39:02]

Subplots and Supporting Characters

[42:19 – 44:57]

• Kodaly: Not evil, but selfish and narcissistic; possibly unaware of his own negative impact.
• Maraczek: His attempted suicide is a unique tonal pivot for a "charming" show; skillful staging allows a transition from darkness back to the comedic (“the gunshot” is the waiter dropping a tray).

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The 1993 vs. 2016 Revivals

[49:13 – 53:53]

• 2016 Roundabout revival seen as a "glitzier, glammed up version."
• Matt and Leah found it technically proficient but emotionally less satisfying, emphasizing how She Loves Me works best as "small and intimate."
• "Alona" number highlighted as an example where the 2016 staging became too flashy, departing from the just-barely-heightened realism that makes the show effective.
• Appreciation for the 2016 version bringing new audiences, but strong preference for the 1993 approach.

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The Musical Structure & Comic Staging

[57:03 – 66:10]

• The show gives every character at least one song; small ensemble but strong 11-o'clock number (“Twelve Days to Christmas”).
• Discuss the precision and challenge of staging the "snippets" duet in the shop, and how the original book and score weave songs in and out of dialogue for immediacy and flow.
• "The thing about the show is that it has, like, 32 songs...so many little pieces that weave in and out of the story." – Matt [65:22]

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George and Amalia: The Main Event

[66:07 – 95:39]

Amalia’s Introduction – “No More Candy”

• The humor and subtlety in Amalia’s sales ability; the importance of not overplaying the "voice of God" finale to the scene.
• Range of interpretations from Barbara Cook’s warmth to Judy Kuhn’s more apologetic, earnest approach.

Complexity of the George-Amalia Dynamic

[74:09 – 80:04]

• Both sincere, but deeply insecure—casting "real people" rather than "models" is crucial ("You don't want to cast a bunch of models, that's for sure." – Leah [23:42]).
• Their fights are "childish...so minuscule and so silly," and the chemistry is shown through mutual irritation and eventual vulnerability.

Act One Finale and Its Ambiguity

[80:04 – 84:45]

• George’s antagonism during the Dear Friend café scene is one of the darkest moments—audience left uncomfortable, unsure of his motives.
• Possible motivations include: confirming it really is her, or sabotaging out of self-doubt and disappointment.

"The only thing I really can't give George grace about is the end of act one...I'm not entirely sure what he's trying to do." – Matt [80:04]

Emotional Beats: “Dear Friend,” “Vanilla Ice Cream,” and Act Two

• "Dear Friend" as both "hilarious and devastating"; Amalia’s heartbreak relatable and wittily observed.
• "Vanilla Ice Cream": High C at the end is a must—vocal demands, comic and melodic, are rare among ingenue roles.
• George’s journey back to Amalia, attempting repentance and reconnecting in small, believable steps.

The Ending and Its Bittersweet Reality

[100:13 – 108:20]

• The last scene: tender uniting of George and Amalia, with time to breathe and real tenderness.
• Masteroff’s reflection that this world (1937 Budapest) is about to disappear in WWII and Soviet oppression.
  • Leah: "Let's forget that."
• The musical becomes a haven of sweetness, connection, and lost civility—never grandiose, always human.
  • "It's ultimately just about two lonely people who want nothing more than to love and be loved." – Matt [106:32]
• Literary romance thread—love of books as an extension of love itself (notably Amalia, Marian, Belle).

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Notable Quotes

• On Cult Status:
  "Every time it's done, people fall in love with it. But it's never been a show that is, like, swept the community." – Matt [15:06]
• On Character Casting:
  "They should all look like real people and have their quirks....you don't want to cast a bunch of models." – Leah [23:42]
• On the Final Scene:
  "And then you kind of just want to watch them make out for an hour...I want to see their whole life together, so happy for them." – Leah [104:24]
• On the Show’s Bittersweet Reality:
  "Masteroff is like, all those people are going to be dead in eight years and went, no, they're not, Joe. I know you wrote Cabaret, but no, they're not." – Matt [105:00]
• On Amalia’s Character:
  "She's not, like, by trade, a fighter. She's an endearing presence...at the heart of Amalia is a girl who wants to love and to be loved." – Matt [69:34]
• On the Joy of the Score:
  "It's all there for the actor. You really don't have to do that much. It leads you through....the emotional journey that each song takes—it's just like, chef's kiss." – Leah [86:34]
• On Literary Heroines:
  "What other ingenue besides...Belle from Beauty and the Beast and Amalia? Oh, Marian the Librarian. You've got three who, like, are well read, and they're all awesome." – Leah [107:44]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:53] — Leah’s first encounter with the show
• [12:08] — From cult status to revival and back
• [21:17] — Lost Julie Andrews/Dick Van Dyke movie adaptation
• [31:46] — Why She Loves Me is rarely done in schools/communities
• [41:36] — The precision of Sheldon Harnick’s lyrics
• [42:19] — Kodaly, Maraczek, and supporting plots
• [49:13] — 1993 vs. 2016 revival styles
• [57:03] — The ensemble’s “11 o’clock” number and musical structure
• [66:07] — Amalia’s and George’s characterization
• [80:04] — The ambiguous cruelty of George at the Act One café
• [86:34] — The craft of the score and “Vanilla Ice Cream”
• [100:13] — The finale: bittersweet, modern resonances
• [105:00] — The real-life fate of 1937 Budapest

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Memorable Moments

• Matt’s family connection to Jerry Bock and the show jacket [01:58]
• Leah’s story of getting a handwritten note and Playbills from Bock as a gift [05:54]
• Storytelling about obsessive nerd processes—re-watching Tony Award performances as a kid [14:06]
• In-depth dissection of Amalia’s wit and musical numbers (the “voice of God” candy box bit) [72:14]
• Heated agreement: if you play Amalia, HOLD that high C at the end of “Vanilla Ice Cream” [93:32]
• Lively critique of the Mystery of Edwin Drood phenomenon (favorite shows you’ve done, not seen) [99:15]
• Tender, almost teary admiration for the way the George-Amalia ending is staged [102:16]
• "I want to see their whole life together." — capturing what makes the resolution so satisfying [104:24]

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Final Thoughts & Diva Sendoff

The episode wraps with appreciation for She Loves Me’s subtlety, humility, and human warmth—emphasizing that its true greatness lies in honesty and relatability, not spectacle. Leah selects Maria Friedman as her Broadway diva of choice and both hosts encourage listeners to seek out her performances—especially with Friedman soon to star in Kimberly Akimbo in London.

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For Fans & First-Timers

Whether you know every lyric by heart or are hearing about She Loves Me for the first time, this episode offers a loving—but clear-eyed—analysis of why this musical endures. The conversation is candid, full of behind-the-scenes stories and dramaturgical insight, with practical takeaways for performers and fans alike.

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[End of summary — for detailed breakdown of specific segments or quotes, see timestamps above.]

Transcript

[Leah Horowitz]

Ice cream. He brought me ice cream. Vanilla ice cream. Imagine that. Ice cream. And for the first time, we were together without a spot.

[Matt Kovlik]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Kovlik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And we are doing a deep dive today with a brand new guest, new friend of the pod. You might have seen her on Broadway, usually at the Marquis Theater in Thoroughly Modern Millie or White Christmas or La Cage Fall or the Woman in White or Follies. Please welcome Leah Horowitz. Hi, Leah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Hi. Oh, so cool to see you do that live.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's just. It's one big party and one big show, ain't it? Leah, how are you today?

[Leah Horowitz]

Good, thanks. It's disgusting outside, so I'm happy to be in the air conditioning as I

[Matt Kovlik]

am in air conditioning, but because I jumped out of the shower 10 minutes ago, I am sweating. So anybody who's watching this on YouTube.

[Leah Horowitz]

I look moist, I can't tell you. You have good lighting.

[Matt Kovlik]

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's a nice big old sun glare right on me. Leah, what show are we talking about today?

[Leah Horowitz]

She Loves Me. My favorite show ever. I think it's my favorite show ever. I really do. Wait, what is that, a bag or a shirt?

[Matt Kovlik]

It's a show jacket. Show jacket.

[Leah Horowitz]

Did you buy that at the Flea?

[Matt Kovlik]

No. So this is a show jacket for the 9394 revival?

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes, it is.

[Matt Kovlik]

Anyone on YouTube can see on the front. Sorry. So where is it? Richard was my grandfather. Richard Tickton, he was an entertainment lawyer and one of his earliest clients and his closest friend was Jerry Bock. Represented him his entire career.

[Leah Horowitz]

Okay, that's crazy. I have a Jerry Bok story that I was gonna tell, so.

[Matt Kovlik]

Oh, I can't wait.

[Leah Horowitz]

I can't wait to hear.

[Matt Kovlik]

So Jerry Vock was a close family friend for all that time. My mom, my aunt, called him Uncle Jerry. My mom has memories of being in his home and, like, hearing him play songs from Fiddler before Fiddler was Fiddler. And yeah, my grandfather also worked for Roundabout. He represented Roundabout. So he got a show jacket for that she Loves Me. And when he passed, my step grandmother gave it to me. I actually wore it in my May Live show. So it's your favorite show.

[Leah Horowitz]

So generous.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, one of my favorite shows. A show that means very much, a great deal to my family. But we'll Talk more about our intros to it as well as we go down the line. Leah, how did this show come down to your path? How did it enter your chat?

[Leah Horowitz]

I went to see it. I was probably in high school. I went to see the 93 production. It was Diane Frantoni by the time I saw it. So I guess it had transferred to.

[Matt Kovlik]

To the Brooks Atkinson. Yeah, or now the Lena Horne, but then the Brooks Atkinson.

[Leah Horowitz]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And I just have such a clear memory of it because we were sitting pretty close. I think I went with some. My mom and some friends from, like, high school. We were like, in the fourth or fifth row center. And it just. The minute it started, I don't know, it was just. I felt like I was like. I knew these people, you know, it was just the warmest, most charming. It just really affected me. And I remember by the end, we stood up and we were clapping. And they were looking, like, right at us. Cause we were so close. And it just felt like we had connected with them. I don't know. It just killed me, that show. And I was at the time, you know, had done theater my whole life. But I was learning to be a soprano. I had been a belter, but I was, like, in the process of learning to be a soprano. Because my teacher was like, you have a high range and you need to develop this. And so I started listening to the cast album over and over and over. And then I eventually started singing all of Amalia's songs. So I've been singing those songs since I was a teenager. And they're just like, in my body. I want to do the show so bad. I've never gotten to. At this point, I'm probably too old, but. And people don't do it enough. It frustrates me. It doesn't get done. I think I've auditioned for it only twice in my life, and I just love it. I've sung the songs in concerts. I've used them for auditions. I hate to admit this, but for many years, I used the last 16 bars of ice Cream. But it got me a lot of jobs.

[Matt Kovlik]

That's it. You do what you've gotta do. And those are a good 16 bars.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember one time I used it for some Broadway show. And Paul Ford, the wonderful Paul Ford, was the pianist. And I knew him a little bit. Cause he had played at my college. And I kind of said to him, as I put it on the piano, I was like, I know a lot of people do this. And I think afterwards he was like, you can do that. Like, he, like, gave me permission, so that. That felt good.

[Matt Kovlik]

If Paul Ford gave you permission, then you can walk around with your head held high.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, that was my initial connection with it. And then when I was in college, when my husband and I dated in college, we broke up for many years, got back together, got married. That's a whole other story. But we were dating in college.

[Matt Kovlik]

But she Loves Me. I want to hear this story.

[Leah Horowitz]

Really long story. Really long story. Anyway, it's, like, hours long. But when we were dating, he knew I must have told him and gushed about how much I loved she Loves Me. And he, I think for my birthday or something or maybe Christmas, presented me with this, like, framed. So our friend, I think Jerry Bock was, like, her uncle, or she was related to him in some way. And so my husband secretly had, like, gone to her and had written to Jerry Bach, and he had written me a nice note and sent me two, like, I think, signed playbills from two different productions. And then my husband, like, framed the whole thing. I don't know where it is. I wish I had it to show you, but it was, like, the most thoughtful, wonderful gift. And I think Jerry Buck also sent along two CDs of, like, cast albums. Like, one from, like, Germany, of She Loves Me, and I think the British one, and who knows where those are now, but that was really cool. And then later in college, I went to Cap 21 at Tisch, which is kind of no longer there, but we would do these, like, workshop productions. Like, since we were in New York, people would use our school to do these, like, workshops. And we did this workshop of a Sheldon Harnick review with six people called A World to Win. And I got to sing some of Amalia's songs in that. And then I think Sheldon Harnick came to see it. And I've also, like, met him a few times over the years. So I just. I have a lot of connection with this show, even though I've never done it.

[Matt Kovlik]

I have done it. I did it once in college my senior year. I guarantee you, you cannot guess who I played.

[Leah Horowitz]

Well, my two guesses would be, oh, gosh, Arpad. Or George. Or George. Those would be my two guesses.

[Matt Kovlik]

Neither one. I wasn't even called back for those roles. I played Ladislav Sipos, the.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, stop it. Okay, okay.

[Matt Kovlik]

In fairness to Steven Terrell, may he rest in peace, he directed that production. He was the head of our department at Emerson, and he had Just directed the spring before man of La Mancha, where I played Sancho Panza, which also, you know, again, like, another role I really shouldn't be playing. I'm not middle aged. I'm not of heavier weight, which is kind of important to the role. They make references to it. But ultimately he was like, I mean, we don't really have anyone. And you're like, you know, character man adjacent. So, like, here you go. And it went well. And so I think in his mind, he's like, oh, Matt is really good at playing the second banana. So I played Sepos. And not for. For nothing, but I did very well. At least at the time, I did very well. I look back on my performance and I'm like, I could have. I could have lightened it up. I think I was a little bitter that I was playing that role. The thing about she Loves Me that they don't tell you is when you're not George and Amalia, there are a lot of scenes in the perfumery that can get very boring because you have to be on stage, like, oh, right,

[Leah Horowitz]

you're, like, doing business. Right? You're like, yeah, like, while they're having these stuff away.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, you're selling products or whatever. And so I would. And our. Our assistant director was so lovely. She had all these snacks for us backstage. And so I would make these character decisions where Sipos was in charge of inventory. So he would check the front of the shop, see that we were out of something, go to the back room to get stuff so I could eat goldfish and gummy bears, come back on stage and be like, yeah, I'm like, we're out of Mona Lisa cold cream. I guess I'll have to just shuffle things around. So that was like, probably the least professional I've ever been on a show. But it all worked out in the end. I first saw this show pretty soon after the Broadway revival had happened. There's a theater in Englewood. It's now called the Bergen Pack. What? It used to be called the John Harms Theater.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And they did a production of the show, and I think they even actually used the Broadway set for it because it was like a two month. It wasn't even a tour. And so I went to see it with my mom and my sister because at the time I didn't know, but, like, the Jerry Bok family connection. So just like, we're gonna go see Jerry's show, and we're really liking it. We got the 93 cast recording with Boyd Gaines And Diane Frantoni. This was before I even knew who Judy Kuhn was. This is a. We're going on a journey. Yeah, we're going on a journey. And then I'd always kind of. It was always on my brain. I always loved it and sort of swapped it in with other cast recordings. I always loved all the photos of it. I loved the artwork. And then in high senior year of high school, I got reintroduced to the 94 carousel and felt. And like, that became my life journey. And then my freshman year of college, my grandfather was having. I think we were hosting breakfast or whatever and met him and. Sorry. I met Jerry for the first time that night. And I was talking about Carousel. And I remember, like, Jerry got, like, a little bristly about it, and I wasn't sure what was going down and. Cause I was saying, oh, I really wanted to go to the library to watch it. And. Cause I'd never been to the library before. And he was like, why that production? I was like, well, I'm really in love with that cast recording. I want to see how it works. The photos look beautiful. So I didn't have a library card yet, but he got me an appointment without a library card by special permission to see it.

[Leah Horowitz]

Nice.

[Matt Kovlik]

And then it was throughout college, my grandfather finally was like, yeah. So that production kind of, like, overshadowed she Loves Me that year. And we're still kind of bitter because. And I guess we'll talk about now as we get into the history of it, but, like, she Loves Me, it opens in 1963, in the spring of 1963, to really strong reviews and, like, decent box office, but is mostly overshadowed by hello, Dolly and Funny Girl and ends up closing at a loss. Goes to London, where it does even worse. And just like, sort of through sheer willpower, it becomes a kind of cult musical where it has theater lovers who really enjoy it. And some songs start to, like, circle and rep. And Barbara Cook goes on the concert circuit and does to your friend and Ice Cream and gets those songs back in the repertoire. And the BBC does a television version in the late 70s and they do a concert at Town hall with Madeline Kahn and Barry Bostrick, which there is audio of.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, I need to hear that.

[Matt Kovlik]

I need to hear. I mean, it's them. Rita Moreno is Alona. George Rose is Mary Check. And I think it's like, just a piano, but, I mean, it's really good. But the point is that it's starting to get back in the public consciousness. And the 93 roundabout revival was this Major shift for she Loves Me and Roundabout. That was, I think, Roundabout's second official Broadway season and their first really big hit because they used to have a theater space called the Criterion center, which then became Toys R Us, and I think now is a Gap in Times Square.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And if you go to the library, that's the video that they filmed at the Criterion. It's this like 500 seat concrete theater, like, so ugly, such an ugly space. And they move it to the Brooks Atkinson for an open ended run. It becomes this big hit for them and they seem to have like revival locked and loaded. It's this big resurgence for she Loves Me in the public consciousness. Roundabout becomes a heavy hitter. And then Carousel opens in March and just like, is what it is. And Sallie Mays talked about this in an interview I did with her way back where she's like, we were 98% sure we were losing, but, like, they had won everything leading up to the Tonys. They'd won revival everywhere. Like, we just kind of knew. We kind of just knew. And we knew that if we lost, we were closing the following week. So they. And like, they're perform. They're at the Tonys, whatever. And she goes, we weren't even bitter. She's like, what made me bitter was I was friends with Gary Beach. I'm speaking as Sally now because I was friends with Gary beach. And they are like, Beauty and the Beast is losing, like every category except for, I think, costumes. And Gary comes up to me during a commercial break and he goes, we just sold a million dollars worth of tickets today. And I just say to him, fuck you. Fuck you. Especially because I think she Loves Me lost revival. It was the first award that night and they lost. And so they just knew they were going to close. So Jerry and my grandfather were still a little bitter about it, you know, eight, 14 years later.

[Leah Horowitz]

I mean, understandable. That was such a strong year for revivals. I was the best rewatching that, you know, whole Victor Garber Tony sequence. And I remember that was. That was at the time I would tape the Tonys every year and then rewatch my favorite. I rewatched that sequence so many times because I loved she Loves Me so much. But then also you got Carousel, you got Damn Yankee, then you got Grease. But, you know, whatever.

[Matt Kovlik]

Grease is fun for what it is.

[Leah Horowitz]

Cute.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. So many hula hoops. I loved it.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Because each one does what it's supposed to do and it's a different flavor and I love it and I Mean, it's one of those things where. Listen, you're. You're never gonna hear me say ever that that Carousel did not deserve it. It's absolutely.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, of course not. I. I mean, Carousel's also, like, in my top five. I. I love it. But also, like, I was marveling at the courage of she Loves Me to not do, like, a big group number. They did, like, two little, tiny. You know, it was just. It was so kind of bold of them to do that. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And I think that sort of. But that's always kind of been the narrative of she Loves Me, of what makes it both tricky to get right and why it's never really been a super runaway success. People, like, every time it's done, people fall in love with it. But it's never been a show that is, like, swept the community. The closest that ever came to that was when that Roundabout revival transferred to London in 95. No, 94. Literally right after those Tonys with Ruthie Henschel and Tracy Bennett, and ran for almost a year and won, like, five Oliviers. And it's still the longest run she Loves Me has ever had. It's the most awards a production of she Loves Me has ever won.

[Leah Horowitz]

I didn't know that.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. Cause, like, the. The original production ran just over 300 performances. The roundabout revival ran, like, 350. Ish. And then London was like, 390, 400 off the top of my head. But, you know, which are what are very, I think, respectable runs. But when you compare that to, you know, that Grease of that year running 1600 performances, it just can't compete. Which is part of, like, why. What makes the show work is also why it's never gonna be a mega smash.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah, I. I totally. And also, like, how do you market it? You know, it's like, I think once you get people in there, they love it, but it's not flashy, and it's not, like a big, splashy musical. It starts with, like, a little number with just, like, the core group. It doesn't start with, like, a big, giant boom of an opening number. And it's, like, small and intimate, you

[Matt Kovlik]

know, the opening number is basically the bench scene because it's strong dialogue interwoven with real dialogue. And it's like. Yeah, it's not a big, like, hello, Hello. It's the opening of the show.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

You're introduced to every character and what their dynamic is, and it's all very sweet. And there's no big belting, like, harmonies or anything, like, that it's just. In fact, I don't think there's any harmonies in the opening number. There's a little bit of counterpoint, but that's it.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. I don't know. I just. I want everybody to love it as much as I do.

[Matt Kovlik]

That's the thing is, like, those who know it do love it.

[Leah Horowitz]

Well. Yeah. I don't know anybody who's like, I don't like that show. But there's so many people who just haven't seen it, don't know it.

[Matt Kovlik]

Well, enter us, because here we are.

[Leah Horowitz]

We're going to teach the children.

[Matt Kovlik]

So, Leah, for the uncultured fucks, what is the plot of she Loves Me?

[Leah Horowitz]

Well, if you've seen you've got Mail, it's basically that. But in what Hungary Are we In Hungary?

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. 1930s Budapest.

[Leah Horowitz]

1930s Budapest. It's a man and a woman meet. They both working at a perfumery. He works there already. She comes in looking for a job. They immediately rub each other the wrong way. And they're at odds for at least half the show. Neither one realizes that they are romantic pen pals. Blind romantic pen pals. And then there's subplots involving the other people working in the shop. But, yeah, the basic story is how we, the audience, know that they're meant for each other and waiting to see how they get together. But I'm sure you can go into it in better detail than I can.

[Matt Kovlik]

No, that was. That was wonderful. Well done. Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about the other subplots as well, because ultimately everyone else's subplot is pretty short. It's just sprinkled out throughout the show. Yeah, yeah. They are George and Amalia. They are our main couple, Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks. I was actually thinking about this today of like. Because the musical is based off of a play called Perfumery that was adapted into two movies before she Loves Me was written. One is Shop around the Corner with Jimmy Stewart and Margaret o'. Sullivan. And then in the Good Old Summertime with Judy Garland.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And then who's the male lead in that? It's not Tab Hunter, is it? No, it's Ben Johnson.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, right. I keep thinking Gene Kelly, but that's summer stock.

[Matt Kovlik]

Summer stock. And they did a couple of movies together, but not that one. That would have been a good one for them because Gene Kelly's a bit of a dick and I feel like he would have done a good job

[Leah Horowitz]

with that, yeah, he would work, but he's not. Like, he doesn't have the Jimmy Stewart ness. I was thinking about this yesterday. Cause I was re listening to my favorite cast album, and Bach and Harnick really wrote like Jimmy Stewarty songs. You know what I mean? Like, you could hear if Jimmy Stewart could sing, that's what he'd sound like. You know, you captured that essence of that.

[Matt Kovlik]

I was at the library and I finally got to watch the 93 production. Because what we've been kind of talking about and not saying full on is when the first Broadway revival happened in the summer of 93, it was the entire company that you hear on the cast recording, except for Diane Frantoni. It was Judy Kuhn. And that was supposed to just run for the summer, but like, surprise, it became what it became. And so they were transferring it to Broadway. But Judy Kuhn, who's always booked and blessed, was already supposed to do Sunset Boulevard in la. And she claims. Maybe she's. She might be lying. I don't know. Actors lie all the time. She claims that she tried to get out of Sunset Boulevard to move to Broadway with She Loves Me. Cause she just enjoyed doing it so much.

[Leah Horowitz]

I believe her. Judy's pretty honest. I believe her.

[Matt Kovlik]

Sure. And she said that Andrew and Trevor basically were like, absolutely not. The only reason I'm sort of like, I don't know, Judy, is because, like, whoever is like, we need this person as our Betty Schaefer. It's imperative to the success of our production.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, right. She was Betty. I'm thinking Norma. But she wouldn't have been a Norma at that time.

[Matt Kovlik]

No, she was. She was still an ingenue at the time. But I will say she is still the best Betty Schaeffer. And I know she was like Trevor's girl at that time. At the time, I can imagine Trevor being like, absolutely not. Like, you're the only person in this production who, like, I know and can hold onto, and you can act Betty Schaeffer better than she has any right to be acted. So, yeah, and like, Sunset was this whole big, like, epic that was coming in. So I'm sure they were like, it's very important we get all the moving pieces. The irony being that Judy couldn't even bring Sunset to Broadway because bitch got pregnant. But that's what's so funny is like, you have Diane Frantoni, who replaced her, doing it on the Tonys, but Judy's in the audience nominated, so it's like, I'm sure.

[Leah Horowitz]

Wow.

[Matt Kovlik]

People at home who don't know what was what. They're like, how is she nominated for she Loves Me? Didn't we see a different woman on stage?

[Leah Horowitz]

Okay, but can I just gush about Diane Frantetoni for a second?

[Matt Kovlik]

You're gonna get many opportunities, so do it for a second now. You'll do it for more seconds later.

[Leah Horowitz]

I just. Diane Frantoni, if you're out there, you're amazing.

[Matt Kovlik]

That's all I. Diane Sutherland now.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, Sutherland. Okay.

[Matt Kovlik]

She goes on Sutherland now. But at the time, she was Diane Franzantoni. She's great. No, I. The. It's great that we have Diane Franzantoni on the cast recording and Kunzie at

[Leah Horowitz]

the library, because you get a taste of both.

[Matt Kovlik]

That's nice.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And I was texting Leah the other day. I'm like. Because I'm a greedy person. I'm like, can we also have a professional cast recording of Kunzie and Diane videotaped at the library? Yeah, there's definitely some press footage of Diane because mti, which owns the licensing rights to she Loves Me, has a video that I think they made around the time the revival was happening because they. It's Sheldon Harnick, Joe Masteroff, who wrote the book, and Jerry Bock talking about the show and sort of deconstructing the show and talking a little bit about the history. And it's intercut with footage from she Loves Me.

[Leah Horowitz]

Ooh.

[Matt Kovlik]

A couple of pieces are from the Lincoln center library recording mostly the opening and another number. But then they start including press footage that you can see on Aurora's Spider Woman, but they have one clip of Diane Frantoni doing vanilla ice cream, and I'm like, where is that footage? Aurora, Spider Woman. Where is she? Give me the full video, please.

[Leah Horowitz]

I mean, I still remember it like I saw it yesterday. It made such an impression, like, yeah, she's amazing. Great actress. Great singer. Just great actress.

[Matt Kovlik]

Great singer.

[Leah Horowitz]

Quirky, interesting person. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Love her. We'll talk more about her as we get more into sort of, like, the aspects of all the characters. Because having listened to Diane on repeat since I was like, six, having just finally seen all of Judy's performance, having seen Benansi twice and then seeing other interpretations of the role. There's. Amalia is such a tricky role, and I want to talk about that, but also George and Jimmy Stewart of it all. But they talk about this a little bit in the video. Sheldon, Jo and Jerry. It's sort of like it's kind of a show about a bunch of underdogs. Who become this sort of chosen family. And it's really important that you don't cast super confident, swarthy people and like

[Leah Horowitz]

perfect looking, you know, Like, I think they should all look like real people and have their quirks and just be. Yeah, they're all super relatable characters. I think you don't want to cast a bunch of models, that's for sure.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And I think because they talk about sort of like George is, you know, he's a handsome, intelligent dude, but he's got the self esteem of a pinecone. Right. And so you gotta.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, they both do. Really?

[Matt Kovlik]

Absolutely.

[Leah Horowitz]

So insecure.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, yeah. It's really. I get very tangled up when I see people who are a little too confident in those roles. Which is a major note I have about the last revival. We will get into it. But yeah, like, it's. You can play it total wallflower, total wimp, but you also can't play a total. Like, I'm the lead of a musical comedy. That's not. She Loves Me.

[Leah Horowitz]

No.

[Matt Kovlik]

Which is again, like one of the issues that the show has for mainstream success is I think a lot of people would like to have, you know, people want like a Jonathan Groff as George. And like, that's not really who you want.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, honestly, they're all character roles. Even George and Amalia, they're character roles. That's what makes it so great. Because they're not like smooth and slick, like leads. They're all very, like, flawed. I mean, George and Amalia are very flawed people. They make a lot of mistakes. They fight about stupid things and they say awful things to each other.

[Matt Kovlik]

You know, I definitely want to talk about the end of Act 1 because it's a low point for both of them, but I would argue it's a lower point for one of them.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, yes, yes. Oh, yes.

[Matt Kovlik]

Very obvious in terms of, like, actions. Yeah. And I want to talk about it. Not at this moment, but so in terms of the history of the show, how we got here, as I mentioned, it's a play called Perfumery that was then adapted into two films. And then the producer, Lawrence Kasha. Sorry, I think I have that right. Yeah, Lawrence Kasha. Sorry, I had notes. But then, right. As Leah and I were about to record Riverside Crashed. And so I did not dare to open another tab. But I'm gonna do that right now. Just for a second, I'm chanting this. Everybody. Yes. Miklos Laszlo is the original playwright for Perfumery, which came out in 1937, which is when the Play takes place and where is he? Where are you, you. You bastard.

[Leah Horowitz]

If you get it wrong, people are gonna stop listening to this and delete your podcast from their subscription.

[Matt Kovlik]

They've done it before. When I. When I get things wrong because I'm going off the cuff. Cause I don't. I can't check my notes because Riverside crashes all the time. People are like, you got that thing wrong now. Sometimes the things I get wrong were big.

[Leah Horowitz]

All right, Everybody's gonna survive. People can go touch grass. It's all good.

[Matt Kovlik]

If we touched grass, we wouldn't be theater people. We're always in tech. Leah, have you learned nothing from Smash? She can't get engaged. She's in tech.

[Leah Horowitz]

She's in tech.

[Matt Kovlik]

She can't touch grass. She's in tech. It is Lawrence Kasha, everyone. Thank you very much. He got the rights to Perfumery from MGM because they owned the rights, because they had made those two films. And then he assembled the writing team of Bach and Harnick and Joe Masteroff. I'm not entirely sure how they came upon Masteroff, because all he really had to his name was one play that didn't run very long.

[Leah Horowitz]

He.

[Matt Kovlik]

I don't think he'd written a musical at that point. And Bach and Harnick had Fiorello, but Fiorello was, like. It was a cultural hit, but it wasn't a seismic hit. They were not household names. And so when he put the team together, MGM was like, I'm sorry, I thought you were going to get like. Like Richard Rogers to do this. I thought you were going to get Arthur Lawrence to write this. Like, huh?

[Leah Horowitz]

My God.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And so they withdrew the rights, and Kasha Gower Champion had expressed interest in directing it, and he was pretty hot. And then he got busy with a different show that I don't think was Dolly. And so they reached out to Hal Prince, who was like, the producer at the time and who was starting to build his career as a director very slowly but surely. And I think she Loves Me was the first Broadway show he directed from start to finish, like, from Inception to opening night, because he had come on late in the game on a show called Family Affair that he took over, I think, out of town, and basically was like, okay, if you are our co producer on this, you can direct this. And if you're our co producer, MGM will give us back the rights because you're a big deal. Which is exactly what happened. Now, Halpernt's made two decisions, though, as producer that he talks about in his book that he looks back on as mistakes. He doesn't regret one, but he does regret the other. Okay, One is casting, one is theater. So when they were casting the show, Julie Andrews expressed immense interest in playing Amalia.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, man.

[Matt Kovlik]

And she had finished filming Mary Poppins, but she was in the middle of filming Americanization of Emily.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

And she was like, I can't do the show in the spring of 63. Can you wait until the fall of 63, by the way? Like, Mary Poppins will be coming out, like, you know, nine months later. That might be good for us. And the team was like, we'll wait for Julie Andrews because she wasn't like an international superstar, but she was a genuine Broadway star. And Hal Prince was very much like, I would like my Broadway debut as a director to happen sooner rather than later. So we're gonna stick to the spring of 63 plus. I don't think we really need big stars. I think that'll throw off the balance of the show. So they take Barbara Cook, who is a known person, but she isn't the name Julie Andrews is. And he doesn't regret this decision. Cause he's like, barbara Cook was amazing.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, she was amazing.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And like set a template. He's like, however, Julie Andrews would have been excellent. And he's like, we would have.

[Leah Horowitz]

It would have helped the show.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, we would have been a sold out hit with her for a full year. And that goodwill would have let us run for like a total of three years and the show would have been a bigger mainstay. The other thing was, it was important to him to have intimacy for this production because it's like a medium sized musical. And so they went into the Eugene o', Neill, which is where Book of Mormon is. And he said, in retrospect, he's like, we could have been in a theater with like 300 more seats and it wouldn't have killed the show. And in fact, we would have made more money on the weekends, which would have offset the losses during the week. And. And we could have run longer. This is back in the day when there wasn't dynamic pricing for Broadway, so you didn't have to, like, people weren't charging 100 bucks for random seats. It was genuine. We need to fill the theater in order to make the money.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right. The price is the price. No matter.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, exactly. So he does regret that in retrospect. But of course, there is another way in which Julie Andrews comes into all this. Do you know?

[Leah Horowitz]

I don't. I don't think I do.

[Matt Kovlik]

Julie Andrews never gave up the ghost of doing she Loves Me because what she went off to do was become a big old movie star that the whole world knew, right back to back hits. Mary Poppins, Sound of Music, and then Thoroughly Modern Millie. You're familiar, I know.

[Leah Horowitz]

Little familiar.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, a little familiar. In 1969, Julie Andrews and Dick Van Dyke had signed up to do a movie version of she Loves Me that Blake Edwards was going to direct.

[Leah Horowitz]

I can't believe I didn't know this. Does she mention that in any of her books?

[Matt Kovlik]

She might mention it in the second one. Cause the first one is written.

[Leah Horowitz]

It goes right up the early years.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, Mary Poppins, she might mention the second one. But it's mentioned in a few other books that they had signed up to do it. Blake Edwards was going to direct this. Maurice Chevalier was going to play Marichek.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Kovlik]

And like, it was confirmed. It was locked and loaded. Everyone was on board. Sheldon Harnick was going out to LA to like help out with the screenplay. And what had happened was that. And part of the reason why they were doing the movie was Julie Andrews was a really big star. She wanted to do it. Dick Van Dyke had become a big star. And Mary Poppins, My Fair Lady, Sound of Music, super huge hits. Thoroughly Modern Millie, decent sized hit. Oliver, Funny Girl, really big hits. But then hello Dolly, Camelot and Paint yout Wagon happen. These giant movie musical bombs. And MGM basically was like, we're not putting in like $8 million on a musical that barely ran on Broadway. We're just not gonna do it, even if it has Julie Andrews. So they pulled the plug and never, never plugged it back in.

[Leah Horowitz]

I mean, it makes sense, but that's like kind of devastating. Like.

[Matt Kovlik]

Like, if you're gonna get a movie musical version. Those are the two.

[Leah Horowitz]

Those are the two.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, man.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

I know that we were gonna talk about this at some point, but I was thinking about, like, why is this show not bigger? Like, that would have helped it. But I also think about how, like, I really think a lot of shows getting. Becoming big and known is high schools and like community theaters doing them. And she Loves Me doesn't really get done. And my guess is just because it's not like a big show, like, it doesn't really have a chorus, which is what high schools look for, right?

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

I mean, it has a lot of parts, but. And then also it's kind of a pretty adult musical when you think about it. Like, as sweet and funny and charming as it Is it has, like, some darker themes running through it. I mean, maritech tries to kill himself. Spoiler. Spoiler alert. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And there's pretty. I mean, it's. It's. A lot of it is innuendo, but it's obvious that. Obvious of frank talk of sexuality in the show.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

I mean, beautifully written talk, but, like, it's. It's still pretty frank. And you have Alona, who's, like, a genuinely comfortable in her own skin, like, owns her sensuality kind of woman. Her shift. Her arc is actually that of, I think, the modern gay man.

[Leah Horowitz]

Stop it.

[Matt Kovlik]

Alona is.

[Leah Horowitz]

Please explain.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yes. So Alona is the cashier of the perfumery. And I actually have a question for you based on the lyric and trip to the library, because I've always. I always took it at face value, and I don't think I should, but at the same time, I'm not. I mean, I don't know. She's the cashier at the. At the perfumery. She's in a situationship with one of the clerks, Kodai, who's a fuckboy. You know, he. He's a lothario, and.

[Leah Horowitz]

He's a lothario.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's very big on the. Like, why. Why waste a good thing? Like, what we have is physical, except the thing is that he keeps messing with her brain.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Because the way he keeps getting her into bed is taking her out on romantic dates and wooing her and being like, I'm so in love with you. But then, you know, cancels dates on her and goes out with other women. And because of Alona's past, which we learn is like, she. She's had a vicious cycle with men of sleeping with them too soon and them kind of only valuing her for that. And then she realized. And then she kind of realizes too late. What she thought was love was actually kind of this toxic blend of attraction and infatuation and. And being addicted to sort of the chase of. Of men, of wanting men to want her. Very Carrie Bradshaw. You know, it's that episode of Sex and the City when she's first dating Aiden, and she's freaked out because Aiden's just available.

[Leah Horowitz]

He's like, right.

[Matt Kovlik]

Like, yeah, we'll go out today. Like, I'm not gonna, you know, string you long. She's like, excuse me. She doesn't know what to do with it. Alana kind of spends many years doing that. And it's. What makes it worse is that she's aware that it's not great and she thinks that, like, by speaking her truth to Kodai, like, they're gonna be on even footing whenever she, you know, dings him or whatever. But ultimately, there's one. One straw breaks the camel's back one too many times. And she takes a trip to the library, where she meets a man who she has a genuine connection with, and she doesn't do anything sexual with him. She waits and builds a relationship with him in a connection, and a leads to the conclusion that she would like. And I think that that's something that a lot of gay men are learning in modern day of, like, oh, maybe I don't sleep with someone on the first date. Like, I think a lot of gay men think that heated rivalry is real and, like, a hookup will lead to love. And I'm like, sometimes that happens, but other times, it's good to sort of know the person first, and then when you sleep with them, it's about connecting on a real level. So that's sort of what alone is. Arc is the question I have is. So she's got a big song in Act 2 called A Trip to the Library. It's a big story song. It's amazing. Hot take. This is a show with no skips.

[Leah Horowitz]

Absolutely. No. I was gonna say that every song. I never skip any of them. The only one that I maybe skip sometimes is Days Gone By.

[Matt Kovlik]

I thought you were gonna say that.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, but even that. That works better on stage than on the recording.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. Days Gone by is absolutely necessary to the story. We'll talk about Marachek in a second. Yeah, I skip it depending on the mood I'm in.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes. Correct.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. If I want to go on the journey, it's right there, and it's like a nice little waltz, and it's sweet. But Trip to the Library, she talks about sort of after being heartbroken by Kodai and singing, I resolve. She goes off and sort of wanders around, finds herself at the library, meets this man, this optometrist, and she has the lyrics. All the while, I was Paul. I was wondering why an illiterate girl would attract him. When I was a kid, I always took that at face value, that Alona can't read. And as I got old, as I got older, I was like. I guess she just means, like, I'm not a literary girl. I don't read a lot of books.

[Leah Horowitz]

But then she has to know how to read. That's so funny. I've never thought about that line. But she has to know how to read. She works. She Works in a perfumery. She has to, like, read the labels.

[Matt Kovlik]

And some people read Broadway revivals, and there are rumors that they can't read. The only reason I bring it up again is when watching it with Sallie Mays, I was going, I think I'm taking this to Face Valley. She's got to know how to read. But then the next verse is about, he has this solution to my problem, which is that he would read to me. And I go, so is the problem that she doesn't know how to read, or is the problem that she doesn't know where to start with literature? And he's like, why don't I read it to you? And you can kind of just let it wash over you. I think that. I think what they mean is the letter.

[Leah Horowitz]

I think it's the letter. I think it's the letter. There's no way she can't read.

[Matt Kovlik]

I'm just trying not to be a troll here. I genuinely trying to go that. But that was. I heard it again. I remember, and I had a flashback of, like, oh, yeah. When I was a kid, I always just thought she couldn't read. And that was, like, part of her storyline. That was part of her journey.

[Leah Horowitz]

I never really picked that apart, but that's so funny. I wish we could ask Bach and Harnick.

[Matt Kovlik]

Listen, there are so many stories about women teaching grown men how to read. Why not reverse it? And a grown man teaching a woman how to read.

[Leah Horowitz]

That's true equality.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Leah Horowitz]

That's true feminism.

[Matt Kovlik]

If Belle teaches the beast how to read on stage, then, like, why can't Paul teach Ilona offstage? You know?

[Leah Horowitz]

You know. You know, I always thought, when they're talking about solve this problem of mine, I don't know why. I feel like I always thought that the problem was more that she was just kind of lost in her life, you know? But maybe I'm not taking it literally enough. I mean, I go back and listen to it again.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, well, yeah, because she talks about how they. They. She says, I'm having hot chocolate and telling my troubles to him. So.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. So it's entirely possible. And he's like, yeah, I think your trouble is, is that you. You. You bang men too soon. So why don't we go to my place and I'll read you the Joys of all flesh? It's one of. One of my favorite, favorite punchlines, which is hoping he made a wave of flesh. Yeah. And then all the while, I'm hoping how an illiterate girl would Attract him. Then he said, I couldn't go wrong with Wave. All Flesh.

[Leah Horowitz]

Of course, it's a novel, but I didn't know.

[Matt Kovlik]

I certainly wouldn't have smacked him. It's so good. It's so good.

[Leah Horowitz]

I mean, the lyrics. Well, Harnick's lyrics are always just. I just think he's so underrated. They're just so funny, and it's like a certain kind of smart, funny. Like, didn't Sondheim say that some of Harnick's songs were, like, on Sondheim's list of, like, favorite songs?

[Matt Kovlik]

Vanilla Ice Cream. I know. Definitely is. Or maybe it's Dear Friend. One of the two. One of the songs.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. Might be Dear Friend, but. Yeah, it's just they're so funny, and there's a lot of, like, internal rhymes and they're so clean. Like, there's never any false rhymes. Like, he really was a genius and had such a great, warm sense of humor.

[Matt Kovlik]

You know, now that I'm thinking about it, there might be three songs from she Loves Me on that Sondheim list. It might be Vanilla Ice Cream, Dear Friend, and tonight at 8. But maybe it's just Dear Friend.

[Leah Horowitz]

I can't remember that up.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, I gotta look it up, too. But no, if you read Finishing the Hat or look, I made a Hat, whichever one it is, he does praise Harnick because he talks about how he doesn't. He tried when he was alive not to speak much on lyricists who are still alive.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Or no lyricists, I think. Yeah, yeah. Lyricists were still alive. But he did make it a point to praise Sheldon, who was a friend and contemporary. And there are a couple of rhymes of Sheldon's that I think he even talks about in. In that book. One was, like, a lyric. I think it's for maybe Body Beautiful or something of, like, feminine with tea with lemon in. Or something like that.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes, Gloria, you're so feminine. You're a cup tea with. Wait, you're a cup of tea with lemon. You're a cup of tea with him and laminin. Yeah. Lemon in. And feminine. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

That was one of the songs we did in our review, so I know that song.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And he sometimes says, like, I went up to Sheldon. I was like, God damn you. Okay. And Sheldon is famous for the story for Sondheim and West side Story. Sheldon Harnick's the Reason why Sondheim doesn't like I Feel Pretty. Because they did a run through of the show for, like, you know, friends and whatever Colleagues. I think it was either in the rehearsal room on the way to out of town, or maybe it was in the theater before they went out of town. I can't remember. But I Feel Pretty was the only song where Sondheim was allowed to, quote, unquote, show off. And so he did all this Noel Coward esque rhymes. And after the show, Sondheim asked Sheldon Harnick, so, what did you think? And Sheldon Harnick. All he said was like, so that I feel pretty song. Huh? And Sondheim was like, I knew what he meant. Because while the lyrics were very clever, they didn't fit the character.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, he always said that.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And he's like, Sheldon was the one who made him realize that. And he didn't even say, like, steve, come on, you can do better. He just was like, so that I Feel Pretty song.

[Leah Horowitz]

Very, very polite, very politic.

[Matt Kovlik]

Very, very Liz Lemon. The lighting was really neat.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, but I still love I Feel Pretty, but that's another story. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And there's also, like, a sociopolitical reason why it should stay, like. I don't know. The thing about theater is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Once it's created, it creates an impact beyond the writer's intention. And so Sondheim should know how important it is to many people. I mean, he can't now, but at the time. At the time, he should know.

[Leah Horowitz]

Put that out there in the universe for me.

[Matt Kovlik]

Exactly. Trying to think the thing about. So, okay, marriage. Let's talk about marriage. Check for a second. I think a lot of our meat is going to be on George and Amalia, so sort of like, let's keep swirling around the outside plot lines. Nothing really happens with Kodai. He's a cad. He's kind of more of a pawn to other people's storylines, which is fine. He's an excuse to be a smarmy, charming.

[Leah Horowitz]

He's the villain. Like, he's the foil.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. As close as there is to a villain, I don't think he's an evil person, but he's a very narcissistic person.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's a little evil. I mean, he's. So he's sleeping with Marachek's wife that whole time and letting George take the fall for it.

[Matt Kovlik]

Well, I don't think he realizes that that's what's happening. I think.

[Leah Horowitz]

I can't remember that.

[Matt Kovlik]

I think that Kodai just has such main character syndrome that he sees things happening and he's, like, just not making A connection to it. And the question also becomes, I think, where it gets not evil, but, like, vindictive, is I don't think that Kodiah's sleeping with Marachek's wife because he just can't resist her. I think he's sleeping with her for a few reasons.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. Yeah. Well. Cause he can. And it's kind of like a challenge. Yeah. What can I get away with?

[Matt Kovlik]

You know, I also think. So it's established at the top of the show that. So Marachek, who owns the perfumery, George, is his favorite clerk. He's most likely been there the longest, thinks of him sort of, like, as a son and successful.

[Leah Horowitz]

Comes to dinner at his house regularly. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Mrs. Marachek, you know, tries to fatten him up. Part of the reason why Days Gone by is an important song is that it shows the sort of lifestyle that Marachek had before he was married. And then sort of how happy and content he is now that he's married and imparting to George, like, you should be married and happy, like I am. And then when there's sort of a time shift down later on, Marichek all of a sudden just sort of turns and becomes really terrible to George. And we don't know why.

[Leah Horowitz]

We don't know why. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And then it's revealed towards the end of Act 1 that Marachek got an anonymous letter that his wife was having an affair with one of his clerks. He immediately assumed it was George because George is the one who's closest to the household. He's always there. But then he learns from a private investigator that it was actually Kodai. And at this point, you know, George has quit out of humiliation and frustration. Marachek has said some awful things to him. And on top of all this, Kodai is literally about to go off and bang his wife again. And Marachek's wife calls him and is like, I'm gonna be home late. Sorry. And so that's when he tries to shoot himself. Doesn't succeed. Everyone knows. Spoilers, but doesn't succeed.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, but, man, I remember that moment. Cause that's the end of Act 1. The gunshot.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's right before the end of Act 1. Because we go into romantic atmosphere.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, we go into romantic atmosphere. Oh, that's crazy. I remember that moment just being the shock of that. Like, the first time you see. You don't see that coming.

[Matt Kovlik]

No.

[Leah Horowitz]

This sweet little show, and then there's a gunshot, and you think that he's dead.

[Matt Kovlik]

And so what the brilliance of the brilliance of the show is that I don't know if it's in the script or if this was just what they did with the staging. I don't know if they did it originally, if Scott Ellis came up with it or what. Because reading Frank Rich's review for the 93 production, he openly says that they're having seen the original production. He's like, there are some things that Scott Ellis just straight up lifted from Hal Prince. He's like, not that I'm mad, though. Hal Prince did it great. But they have the. The sound of the gunshot is actually the sound of the tray from the waiter crashing.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes. Yeah, that's right.

[Matt Kovlik]

I forgot that you hear what sounds like a gunshot, but then a light comes up on a waiter with a tray and all this stuff on the ground. And so it's immediately able to kind of lighten the mood For a show that's so light and sweet. To then have a gunshot, romantic atmosphere is important to kind of keep that tone and momentum going, because we do such a hard pivot.

[Leah Horowitz]

Such a hard pivot. I forgot about that. I. I was rewatching. I was watching that British movie. Yeah. That you sent me, but I didn't get up to that part, so I'll have to keep going. That British filmed version that you sent me was so odd because it's a musical, but there were, like, these long silences in it. It was kind of like dead air, you know, I was like, what's happening?

[Matt Kovlik]

So, yeah, movie musicals up until. Honestly, I would maybe say Little Shop of Horrors kept those, like, pauses at the end of numbers because, I guess.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

50s 60s roadshow movie musicals. Audiences used to applaud.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right. I mean, I'm not even talking about that. It's just, like, in the little scenes, it's. There's something about the energy of the scenes that just is like, kind of like. And there's like. Yeah. I don't know.

[Matt Kovlik]

And considering that it's already 30 minutes shorter than the normal show, it's like. I mean, they make trims here and there, but, yeah, it's surprising that they don't pick up the tone.

[Leah Horowitz]

They pick it up. Yeah, the pace is. Yeah, the pace is oddly slow. It's like they're doing these songs, and then suddenly they're like, in an Ibsen play or something. It's like. It's very strange.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Fascinating.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. But. But the point is, with Kodai is once Marachek finds out he has George, he reinstates George. They make up. He Tells George what's been going on and why he's been acting that way. And he says, okay, so now I need you to fire Kodai. Which we do. And so I think that in addition to wanting to see if he can sleep with Marek's wife, just out of the narcissism of it all, he does see George kind of being the favorite, probably thinks of himself as the better clerk, and sort of, out of vindictiveness, sleeps with Marachek's wife. To get back at Marachek a little bit. You serve George a little bit. And then on top of that, it's implied that Marichek's wife might be, like, siphoning off money to him because he wants to open up his own perfumery. So when he. So when he gets fired, insists that he quits and sings, Grand. Knowing you, the whole gig at the end is like, I'm gonna open up my own shop.

[Leah Horowitz]

Literally, you're all gonna be working for me. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And, like, who knows?

[Leah Horowitz]

Maybe.

[Matt Kovlik]

Maybe they will be. It's. But that's. I always got the implication that, like, Marachek's wife probably gave him some money for that.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, wow. That's even worse.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Like, I don't think. Again, I don't think he's evil. I just think he's sleazy.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. But that's why you have to have somebody playing that role who's, like, super likable.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Cause otherwise, he's just a.

[Matt Kovlik]

He's the worst.

[Leah Horowitz]

Disgusting. Yeah. Waste of space.

[Matt Kovlik]

I did remember seeing it with Gavin, wishing he was, like, a touch more sexual in the role the actor in. You can sort of have more fun with playing someone who's such a. Such a 180 from you as opposed to someone who's maybe 90 degrees from you.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, I could see that.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

I could see that. It was hard to see Gavin in that role just because if, you know Gavin. It was hard for me personally to, like, suspend disbelief for Gavin to be this, like, cat, as wonderful as he is. It was a harder jump, you know?

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. But I mean, that's also kind of. That's more representative of issues I had with the revival in general of as talented as everyone was. Everyone was always, for me, was, like, 10 to 20% off being completely right for their roles. Like, everyone was right enough that it didn't make me dislike the production, but everyone wasn't quite perfect enough to make me forget previous iterations.

[Leah Horowitz]

I think my main problem was because I had seen the 93, and because the Revival was like. I mean, they had some different stuff, but it was still Scott Ellis.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

So to me, because I had seen his first one, seeing it again, but with, like, a completely different cast. It felt like a weird carbon copy where. But it wasn't what I wanted it to be because I was so imprinted. The other one was so imprinted on my brain. And I saw. I happened to be there for, like, a student matinee, which was. I do not recommend. Do not recommend. No, I do not recommend.

[Matt Kovlik]

I don't like. I don't like children, Leah.

[Leah Horowitz]

As a group. I do not either. So that took away from my enjoyment of it. Like, I think it was my husband's first time seeing she Loves Me, and I was, like, building it up. And so. And afterwards he was like, eh. And I was like, no, no.

[Matt Kovlik]

You know, I'm gonna make you love it.

[Leah Horowitz]

It just wasn't ideal. It wasn't an ideal day.

[Matt Kovlik]

But there were even, like, small details in the staging of 2016 that I didn't realize were being replicated from 93. It's like just small things that I wrote down when watching it. And then I kind of refreshed my memory of 2016 and was going, oh, like that thing that I thought was so cool in 93, they did do it again. Like, for example, at the end of Act 1, when Amalia is waiting during Dear Friend and the head waiter, he sees the rose and knows what this whole thing is. He sees George's rose on the ground and picks it up and realizes that he saw her and left and puts it away. And it's not in the script, I don't think. And I remember seeing Jonathan Freeman do it at the library and was like, oh, my God, that's such a great moment. And then I was watching the 2016. I'm like, oh, they. They repeated it, which, like, it's a great moment, but it's. It's. There are a lot of small details like that, and even just things of, like, where things are placed on stage, like the angle of Amalia's bed in her apartment. It's the exact same setup as 2093.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, that's what I mean. It was just. I don't. I don't know. Like, I think I would think that if I hadn't seen the 93, I would have seen 2016 completely differently.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. But it's also 2016 was definitely a bit of a glitzier, glammed up version.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. It felt much like they were trying to make it bigger and I think that was another thing that lost me, because 93 just felt so small and intimate and personal. And it. To me, it lost something. Cause it looked like they were trying to, like, expand it somehow. And I can't explain, like, what the difference was. Maybe you can.

[Matt Kovlik]

Well, I think there are plenty of nuances we could do, but I think the thing that comes to mind for me, always, as the perfect representation of that is actually the song Alona, which is when they're in the shop setting up decorations for Christmas, thinking they're working late. And Kodai, basically. Not basically, Kodai does a whole number wooing Alona to be in his good graces again. And it's done to sort of like, I guess, a samba or something like that. And the whole point is, you know, it's just. It's them sort of wandering around the shop and there's, like, a little bit of dancing, but it's all within the confines of human interaction. And then the 2016 production, they fully turned it into a big old dance piece.

[Leah Horowitz]

I didn't enjoy that.

[Matt Kovlik]

Neither did I. With kicks and splits and dragging. And I think it's. I thought it was so wrong and was so anti what that show is, but it was done in the sense of, like, let's beef it up a bit, because this is sort of what Broadway audiences expect now.

[Leah Horowitz]

Well, also, they had Jane Krakowski, and I feel like they were like, let's let her show off her kicks and splits and her legs, which, you know, I get.

[Matt Kovlik]

They're great.

[Leah Horowitz]

They're great. But that took me out of it for sure.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And there were a bunch of other things as well, but for me, that's sort of like the pinpoint of where I thought that revival missed the mark a bit. And it's a shame because I know a lot of young people who became introduced to she Loves Me from that revival and love the show, not because of it. And that's totally great. Like, I'm not. Yeah, yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

And it's on what, like, you can watch it? It's streaming online. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Broadway HD or something like that.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah. So it's great that there's, like, a record of it and hope it leads to it being more popular. But. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And it's not a bad revival. It's more that I. I really want people who are doing it in the future to watch that video. MCI currently has it unlisted, but I think I sent you the link. It's viewable if you have it. I wish they would make it listed to make it searchable because I want people to hear the writers talk about the delicacy of the show, of it always being about the characters and the people. Because story wise, it's not this complex puzzle you gotta figure out. It's not overwhelming emotions, it's all human. And the moment you lose sight of that, you lose a bit of what gives that show its punch. Because I mean, listen, I was very dry eyed seeing it live and I saw it twice in 2016, but watching the library, I'm not gonna lie, I cried a little bit at the end.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh yeah, I fully remember crying through the whole curtain call. You just wanted it all to work out for them so bad. And then it did. Like they felt like they were your friends.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Like again, it was just so intimate and like just the daily lives of these normal people. And like, you know, they work in a perfumery. They're like, they're. They're not like rich people. They're just like average Joes and. But they're all so like their personalities are so rich and endearing and you just want it all to work out so bad that it does well.

[Matt Kovlik]

And the thing of is sort of it's in that era of customer service where you could be a clerk in a shop and be able to be intelligent and have some sophistication about you. You're not a high person of society.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

But you cater to.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's a risk and it's a respectable job. And it's like an honorable job.

[Matt Kovlik]

Exactly. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's, it's. And so people like George and Amalia have this intelligence and it's not such a, such a reach that they would, you know, be respectable people with, you know, great deal of like books on their shelves and to be able to talk about Kafka and these things. But so it's of that era. But yeah, at the same time, they are in a customer service industry. What they do is not going to be the success or failure of society. And Sipos kind of talks about this. He's like, I am a clerk in a successful, but not the most successful shop in a respectable city that's not even the largest city in our continent. And he's like, you know, what I do doesn't necessarily matter, so all I gotta do is, you know, keep his job. Yeah, he's like, keep your job. Do not lose your job.

[Leah Horowitz]

That song is actually like extremely good life advice when you think about it.

[Matt Kovlik]

It is. It's also the, the meat of the overture, which I love.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Every. Everyone in this show gets at least one song. Some people get two. And also, what I realized this is. So the ensemble is rather small. It's mostly customers and then people who

[Leah Horowitz]

go to patrons of the cafe.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. But they do ultimately get the 11 o' clock number. The ensemble.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. They do the 12 days to Christmas. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

12 days Christmas. So good.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. Another thing I was noticing just, like, listening to different versions is I always. I always notice and wonder about, like, tempo choices. And it's just so interesting how the tempos for the 931 are kind of pretty moderate. And then you listen to the 2016 one, and they're all pretty fast.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's like they're, like, speeding through, which made me think, do they think people don't have the attention spans for these songs? It's very brisk.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

You know, Then you listen to the original. Again, pretty moderate, you know, but what I loved about 93, and I assume they did this in 2016. I haven't listened to it recently, but in 12 days to Christmas, by the end, the pace is so incredibly manic. And I love that choice that it's just like they can barely get the words out. Yeah, I feel like they pumped that up a lot.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. I think in the original, it all was one tempo for that. And you listen to the 63 production, and the tempos are mostly the same as 93. A couple of numbers. 93 speeds up by, like, a hair a little bit.

[Leah Horowitz]

Not much,

[Matt Kovlik]

but nothing insane. 12 Days to Christmas is the only one that really goes, because that number is. So the number does two things. One is that it's a really great showcase for the ensemble. It is a genuine showstopper. It's a nice big entertainer. As we get to the finish line of this show, it also is a great storytelling device chronicling George and Amalia's journey, which we'll get to in a second because we're about to get to the meat of this show and just like, just gabber for another half hour about these two. But then it goes 12 days, nine days, four days, one day. And with each verse, the tempo picks up a little bit and then till we get to the final verse, One Day to Christmas. And it's just a frenzy. And in the video I mentioned with Harnik and Bach and Masteroff, that's the one thing about the 93 production that Harnik was not sold on really well. And so he acknowledges. He goes, it stops the show, and it totally works. But he's like. As a lyricist, I get a little perturbed because you can't really hear the lyrics at the end.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, but it makes so much sense because in that last verse, they have the whole lyric flub that's written in, like, we're not the sheeple who pop in time. We're the sheeple. You know, like, and for. It makes sense that they're messing up because they're going so fast. You know, if it's done slowly, I don't think it's as funny, you know?

[Matt Kovlik]

No, I. I agree. I think that was a choice by Ellis and Rob Marshall, who choreographed that production that I think they are totally justified in, and I think everyone should do it from now on.

[Leah Horowitz]

Me, too.

[Matt Kovlik]

Just. And it's one of those things where, because theater is a collaboration, the best idea does not always come from the person who began the idea. Do you know what I mean? Sheldon wrote the lyrics. The lyrics are amazing. Ellis and Marshall came up with an idea 30 years later to make it even better. And while Harnick's qualms are understandable, his qualms do not usurp what ultimately makes that number work so well. And so I think that they were right to do that, and it's what people do now. And I also think he came around. That video is literally, like, in the middle of the Broadway run. So I'm sure years later, he's like, you know what? It works, and everyone likes it, and that's what people come to expect. And, yeah, it's just seeing the frenzy of it all. When we did it at Emerson, my friend Sarah, who was in the ensemble, so I had made my character choices so I could go eat snacks. She made her character choice so she didn't have to remember the final verse, which was in the frenzy of it all, of everyone running around trying to cut their stuff. She made it that her character had a nervous breakdown in the final verse, and she couldn't even get the words out. So while everyone's running around, she just stood center stage, clutching her bags and sobbing. And people would come up after the show, be like, that was brilliant. You were so hilarious. And Sarah's like, I didn't have to learn the final verse.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, see? But I would want to sing those lyrics because it's so fun.

[Matt Kovlik]

Oh, no, it's great. It's great. But I think at that point, she was like, I can never. She couldn't really clock it. She couldn't really lock it in. And so rather than, I guess, really kind of push herself to do it. She's like, I'm just gonna make this choice. And to her credit, it worked really well. It worked. And everyone else sang the lyrics properly, so it was good. But my gosh. Yeah. But the show gives you opportunities to do things like that because even the customers have personalities you make of like sounds while selling. And it's three different conversations happening. Oh, it's so good.

[Leah Horowitz]

I actually voice messaged my friend Mary yesterday. She was a swing on the 93 production. And I sent her a voice message because I was listening to it and it like brought up in my head. I always wondered. So they're all singing their little snippets in that song. It's the customers and the salesmen. But you just hear a snip snippets of each conversation and you know they're all put together. And the comedy is that they're the stuff that. Well, I'm not explaining it well. Maybe you can explain it better for people who don't know it.

[Matt Kovlik]

I would never take the words out of a woman's mouth. Leah, you're doing a really good job.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's three conversations in the shop with the clerks and their customers and they're

[Leah Horowitz]

all talking about buying different things, but you're just hearing snippets. And then the way the snippets come together for the audience is comical. So it's like I would like to see a face like yours wrecked. You know, clearly three different things. But. But I was like, I would like

[Matt Kovlik]

an eyebrow under my chin.

[Leah Horowitz]

Under my chin. Yeah, there's an idea. But I asked her, I was like. It took me a while for her to understand what I was asking, but I basically was like, I always wondered, you know, you're saying your little snippet if you're up there, then while the other people are saying theirs, are you continuing the conversation with your salesman to like make the in between parts make sense? And she, she kind of couldn't remember. She said she thought that they might have actually just been like. Like you do when you're in a long running show talking about like what they had for dinner last night.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

But then she said she thinks their mics were probably on. So they were probably just like miming, mouthing to each other. But I always wondered if they would. If, if they would like. I would like to see lipstick in the shade of. You know what I mean? Like just to make it make sense. That's a super nerdy nitpicking thing that I was thinking About.

[Matt Kovlik]

Well, I mean, Harnick talked about that in the video, too. He was like, you are having a conversation. So he's like, once your line comes out, don't just go like, you have to.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right? Yeah. You have to keep it going, which

[Matt Kovlik]

makes it hard and keeps you on your toes. I remember when we did it, we. We did have to kind of think about what it was that we were. What our conversations were.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And so you could never. You were. You can never zone out on that song because you're always. It's always coming back, and you have to know exactly what your next solo is, but connected to whatever it is you're saying or doing. So I think, like, because. Because it's also. It's the customers and the clerks going back and forth at the same time. So it's. Right, A customer, then it's a clerk, customer, three customers, two clerks. Like, it's. It always. It's always around, so you're always figuring it out because it's like a customer going. I would like to see a clerk face like yours. Customer. Cracked.

[Leah Horowitz]

Cracked.

[Matt Kovlik]

But we carry.

[Leah Horowitz]

But we carry. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Or at the end, it's like all three clerks, one after the other. Madam, I am filled with very soft, soft soap. Yep.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's so good.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's so fun.

[Leah Horowitz]

Well, that's another thing that Mary mentioned. She said that whenever it was your line, they were directed to do some kind of gesture to pull focus to them so the audience could follow, which makes sense.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And it's hard to figure staging. It is tricky because part of you wants to have them in three separate parts of the shop so you can get where things are going.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

We did it sort of at a diagonal, which was fine, but. And I think they did it on a diagonal in 2016 as well. But I just remember feeling like we were a little too all over each other and that you kind of need some distance at the same time.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. It's like you need distance, but maybe not too much, because then the audience is having to, like, play a tennis match with their heads.

[Matt Kovlik]

Exactly. And you can't keep everyone moving all over the stage all the time. Like, it's such. That's like, maybe the one number that's a genuine puzzle, and you have to. Really.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. I bet it takes a long time.

[Matt Kovlik]

It took us a long time to do that number. And it's. And it's like a short number. It also establishes the. The button of the. Thank you, madam. Please come again.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. Which I love. The thing about the show Is that it has like 32 songs or something like that in it, because it's so many little pieces that weave in and out of the story. And they talk about how basically when they. They wrote the show, masteroff wrote his libretto first. And Bach and harnick were like, just write your version. Your play version of, oh, interesting. And they said, no, write as short a version as you possibly can. Like, really condense it, and we'll go through and see where we can fit in songs. And masterhoff is like. He's like, if there's a line that you think should be sung, make that a sung line. He's like, I don't care. He's like, my book is for your songs to happen. So he's like, if you want to wedge in a song, if you want to take everything I wrote here and just make that a song, do it. And so that's why it keeps flowing in and out that way.

[Leah Horowitz]

That's so smart.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's so smart. I love it.

[Leah Horowitz]

What a great, great collaboration. Which is hard to do.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. So this leads us actually to our main couple now, because they talked about how Amalia's intro. There wasn't a song originally. It was just a little speech about the music box.

[Leah Horowitz]

I have to say that's. I have to say that's one of my favorite songs in the show.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's.

[Leah Horowitz]

I love no more candy. It's so perfect. It's just completely perfect. A perfect little. It's.

[Matt Kovlik]

Everything about it is so good. Okay, so if I. If I may now speak a little bit about Kunzy, please. Okay, so I love Judy Kuhn. That's no big secret. I have said it really wasn't until the 21st century when she became funny. And in fact, if you. If you ever listen to Cola Scola had a. A podcast back in the day called breakfast buffet where he and Jeffrey self played morning show hosts of a fake morning talk show.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, my God, I need to download that right now.

[Matt Kovlik]

Oh, it's. It's so crazy. It's so, so good. One of the running gags is they have a traffic correspondent, Willard McSally. And Willard, whenever they ask Willard about the traffic, it always leads to Broadway. So, like, one thing is like, oh, there's a big pile up down, like the whatever highway. And they go, do you know what the cause of the root of the problem is? He goes, if I had to guess, Betty Buckley. Why Betty Buckley will. And he goes, oh, no, can't stand her. Never could things like that. But so he has One where. They go something about, like, the traffic. And he's like, oh, you can. You can expect flashbacks to 93 Revival as she Loves Me. It's all, It's. It's bumper to bumper and all roads lead to Judy Kuhn. And they go, why Willard? He goes, well, because Amalia is an ingenue, but she's got to have. She's got to have comedy chops. And, you know, what do you do? You hire the voice of Pocahontas. How the work out for crazy for you with Jody Banson. And also, you know, just timelines being messed up. And they, they're. They're very good about it and all this stuff. But then you go, you go, when can we expect the traffic to. When can we expect the traffic to lighten up? Willard goes, when Judy Q gets a Gosham sense of humor. And they go, guess we're gonna be in traffic for a while.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, no. Judy has a great sense of humor. She does.

[Matt Kovlik]

She does. They listen. They were just going off because I honestly think they were just like taking micro doses of ketamine.

[Leah Horowitz]

And right now, probably, probably.

[Matt Kovlik]

But like, yeah, like, in the 90s, Judy Kuhn was kind of considered like the princess of darkness. She, you know, Les Mis, Chess, she did, you know, Fosca and Passion at the Canning Center. She was. She was the queen of darkness. She Loves me was a big shift for her. And it was interesting to. I was interesting reading the reviews for that production because the only person who gives her a flat out rave is Frank Rich, who is ultimately the person who mattered the most. And because he's also, having seen her in Les Mis and Rags and Chess, he's like, finally a role that fits her perfectly that she can succeed in. Because he's like, you know, she did her best with Chess, but, like, that show was a disaster. He's like, she's beautiful in Les Mis, but Cosette has five minutes of stage time.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, tell me about it.

[Matt Kovlik]

I know, I know, but enough time for her to get a goddamn Tony nomination, which I think is incredible. But a lot of other reviewers compared her to Barbara Cook of like. She doesn't have that lustiness of Barbara Cook. I'm like, well, Molly doesn't have to be lusty. Barbara was like, had that kind of energy.

[Leah Horowitz]

But that's not really like, in the script.

[Matt Kovlik]

No. And so what Kunzy did that I loved was her. Amalia was very, very earnest and very, very passionate, and she leaned into the wallflower. But you saw when she could have a backbone like, at her. At the heart of Amalia is a girl who wants to love and wants to be loved and all these things and will vouch for herself, but isn't. She's not, like, by trade, a fighter. She's. She's an endearing presence. And you see when she enters the shop for the first time and she speaks with George and wanting the job, like, she's not manipulating in any way or anything like that. She's just, you know, asking earnest questions, all these things. And, like, desperately wants this job. And what happens is Marachek has bought these leather cigarette boxes that play music. And he makes a bet with George that they're gonna sell one within the first hour. And everyone's like, these are the stupidest things. Why would you sell it? And Kunzie, her, Amalia, she's trying to get this job. Marachek says no. George says no. She sees a woman staring at the leather boxes. She doesn't know what the fuck they are. And you. And in a flash, she goes from this, like, little, oh, please job to, like, she's on it. And it was such a great shift because she's not a shark so much as just. She's really good at it. And she gets the box and she goes, oh, and are these wonderful? And only 6 and 10. And then she's like, oh, it's for candy. Candy. She's like, yeah. And she opens it in. The music plays. And Judy just goes, oh, she had no idea I was gonna play music. She's oh, and it's so great. And then you see her just, like, lightly play with the woman. And I love hearing different Amalias do. The line of these candy boxes have been a lifesaver.

[Leah Horowitz]

Lifesaver to many women overweight.

[Matt Kovlik]

And don't we all.

[Leah Horowitz]

Don't we all? Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Like. Cause Cook does it. If you listen to the cast recording for her, she does it in this like, we're equals kind of way of slight tendency to overweight. Oh, and don't we all. And Frantoni is kind of saving her ass, but in a more sort of, like, calm way. She's like, slight tendency to overweight and don't we all. And Kunzy is a bit more of apologetic. She's like, slight tendency to overweight and don't we all like. It was so good. And she sings this counter melody to the music box of just slightly selling it to this woman. And the point of this song title, no More Candy is just. It's your hand slips into the candy box, you know, we're sitting at home reading a good book or listening to a symphony because we're all classy people, aren't we, madam? And we don't realize it, but we slip our hand in the candy box, the music plays, and we go, oh. And it's saying to us, no more candy.

[Leah Horowitz]

No more candy.

[Matt Kovlik]

The best final line, in a way, it's a little like the voice.

[Leah Horowitz]

The voice of God. So good.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's so good.

[Leah Horowitz]

And the woman goes, I'll take it. I'll take it.

[Matt Kovlik]

And Amalia gets hired on the spot. And the best Amalias don't do that final line too broad. You just. It's very light. You hold it, and it's like. It's a little like the voice of God. And I've seen Amalia's push that final line and go for, like, the religious of it all.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, it's like a choir moment. It's like a simple, like, voice coming down from heaven. Angelic voice.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, exactly. It's very. Land this plane, and you can't land it in a showy way. It has to be subtle. And so we laugh because we know that she's landing the plane, but we can't laugh too big.

[Leah Horowitz]

As insecure as she is, and she has her insecurities and her meek moments, but she's confident about her sales ability. That's what she's confident about. She's like, I know that I'm a good saleswoman, like, from the. That's what she has going for her from the very beginning, 1000%.

[Matt Kovlik]

She knows she's. She's great at it. And there's also a bit of stage business that they do that they did again in 2016, which is when she's talking to George and trying to find her letter of recommendation from Hammerschmitz, and she's looking through her purse and she's giving him all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, she realizes, oh, the letters in my jacket. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a piece of business that they did for both of them. And. And once again, like, that earnestness with Kunzy's. Amalia is always there, but when she gets pushed, she does fight back. Especially with Boyd Gaines. George, because, you know, as you said, they rub each other the wrong way until they eventually rub each other the right way. But you see how, like, it's much more childish, their banter with each other, because it's so minuscule and so silly, what they fight over.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

But you also see that she has a Good relationship with everyone else in the store. So it's.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's.

[Matt Kovlik]

She's not the problem, and he's also not the problem because we've.

[Leah Horowitz]

No. They're both fine with other people. Like, it's just like a parent from. And then you've got Sipos on the side who sees it all and understands right away.

[Matt Kovlik]

Exactly.

[Leah Horowitz]

And I love, like, the. The Greek chorus of Sipos and rpad, you know?

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, exactly. I just love that line of like, they like each other.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Well, shouldn't we tell them? Yeah, right.

[Leah Horowitz]

Exactly. And then what's the response?

[Matt Kovlik]

It's like, my dear boy, if we did, they wouldn't believe us. Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is. It's good. It's telling the audience upfront, you're not more clever than we are. Of course they're gonna end up together. But, you know, it's about how. And also. And they reveal to us, the dear friend pen pals, that Amalia is the recipient early on. So it's not this big. Yeah. Not this big old twist.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Matt Kovlik]

Which I appreciate. And the point of those letters is they can be their most confident, articulate selves in these letters to each other, which is why they've fallen so in love with the other one. Because they. That connection is just so genuine. Because in those letters, they don't have to worry about who they are in the real world. They can pick their words carefully and they can really specify how they feel all the time. And that's. That's the root of who they are, and it's what makes it such a beautiful connection. And you hear their heart with other people for so long and before they can actually share with each other. I love the scene with Amalia and Ilona of the I don't know his name scene.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And first of all, you see how Amalia is with Ilona and just how genuine and friendly they are with each other. She's got a good relationship with her, and there's no judgment so much as that. It's just two different worldviews that come together at the end of the song. Because I don't know, his name is not really at. When you think about it, I don't know his name isn't really a song for Amalia. We already know how.

[Leah Horowitz]

I mean, no, her view doesn't change at all. She affects Ilona.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Because she. Amalia really is like a change agent. Like, her coming into the shop really sets. Obviously, sets off, like, so many plots and so many changes among the characters, it's really.

[Matt Kovlik]

Absolutely.

[Leah Horowitz]

Catalyst.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And not out of any desire to change anything other than just sort of living her life and how.

[Leah Horowitz]

Just being herself. Yeah. Affecting other people. Yeah. That's one of the reasons she's just one of my favorite characters, is, like, she's so genuine and so smart and warm, and she's affecting the air around her.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And she doesn't take things lying down. She gives credit where it's due, and she tries to give people the benefit of the doubt, but if she gets pushed, she will fight back. And. And, I mean, when. When George quits his job and he goes into the break room to, you know, say bye to Amalia in, like, such a nasty fashion, to her credit, she doesn't say anything pithy to him. She says, like. And she doesn't just, like, let him walk over. She goes, may a condemned woman please speak? Mr. Kodai, I never wished you harm. I still don't wish you harm. And he's like. He can't even let that go. He's like, yeah, well, I hope you get married and have babies, and for my successor's sake, I hope it's soon.

[Leah Horowitz]

And, like, he's just being a.

[Matt Kovlik]

He's a dick.

[Leah Horowitz]

I really like rewatching that first scene, like, from the very beginning, I'm totally on her side. Like, I love George, but I'm on her side because she. She comes in, her objective is to find a job, and he keeps trying to sell her something, and she keeps trying to tell him, no, I don't want that. It's like, she's not doing anything wrong. And then he just becomes so antagonistic because she's like. Like, no, no, no. That's not what I want, you know?

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, well, they have those. They have that argument in the shop before he quits about sort of what was the root of the problem of where this all started from. And she. He claims that it was because she was making comments about him to other people about his attire and his fingernails. And she doesn't deny the fingernail thing because he's like, you. You made it. You say about something about my fingernails. And she looks at them, and she goes, better? But she says, no, no, no. This all started when I got the job because I, you know, lost your bet for you, and clearly that did something to you, because then you started acting, in a way, to me. She's like. And then I responded in kind.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right, Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. But then he's also like, fellas, and, you know, you also are late a lot. And that means that I get the brunt of it. And, you know, obviously, there's also the. The abuse cycle of. Maroshek is abusing George, who takes it out on Amalia.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right, right, right.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, and she's not perfect. I'm not saying she's perfect, but. But. But, like, if somebody's poking at you.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

If you have a backbone, you're not gonna, like, just lie down and take it. So I'm always more on her side.

[Matt Kovlik]

Perfectionist for Judy Kuhn's voice and the writing of this musical. It's not for the people I wanna watch on stage.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes, correct. Correct.

[Matt Kovlik]

The thing about George that I also relate to is. Yeah, he's. He is very much not perfect. He's. When I talk about him being a dick in certain scenes, it's not that it's justified, but you can see why, like, he's still a dick to Amalia when they have their goodbyes, because he just quit his job and he's dejected and. And he's, you know, he's not in the mood to make a peace offering. Someone he hasn't been able to stand, who still gets to keep her job. And on top of that, like, part of that comes from, you know, Marichek making them all stay late. And Amalia can't stay late because she has her date with dear friend, who is George. And George is trying to keep his date as well. And so. So by allowing Amalia to leave early, he gets under Marachek's skin for that. And so it's all these things of, like, it's not her fault, but he does give her allowances that she doesn't appreciate. And then he gets the brunt of it. And so, like, yeah, he's not a bad person. They just. It's a constant miscommunication all the time

[Leah Horowitz]

with them and the fact that they are obviously attracted to each other from the beginning. And there's. So there's that, like, friction happening there too.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. The only thing that I really can't give George grace about is the end of act one, and I'm not. It's something that has always kind of bothered me because I'm not entirely sure what he's trying to do. Yeah, it makes a lot more sense to me in you've Got Mail because Tom Hanks character is a bit of a dick already, and he realizes that he was a dick and all this other stuff. But. But, yeah. Sorry, sorry. End of Act 1, after Marachek has shot himself. Let's Set the scene. We are at the Cafe Imperial. George shows up with Sepos to see what his lady of the letters looks like.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, he wants to get a look through the window before he comes in.

[Matt Kovlik]

Well, he's planning on actually even leaving. He's gonna give her a letter of that. He won't. Why he can't go. And he wants Sepos to do it for him. But also curiosity gets the better of him and he wants to know what she looks like, only to find out it's Amalia. And so he goes, I guess, to kind of sniff her out in a way because he still can't really believe it's her. But then how would you describe how he is for the rest of that scene with her?

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, it is hard to stomach and hard to understand. He comes in and just is like poking at her, kind of saying, like, oh, you're waiting for somebody. Oh, he's not here yet. I guess he's not coming, you know, just. It's just.

[Matt Kovlik]

Just.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's nasty. Kind of like from the jump. And he's, like, toying with her. They're on such uneven footing because he knows something that she. And she is totally unaware and she's still earnestly waiting for her friendship. And she keeps saying, please, I need that seat. Get out of here. You're going to scare him away. And he's just keep going and going. Then if they do that whole. The Tango Tragique song, if they do that. Because sometimes don't they cut that song sometimes.

[Matt Kovlik]

Sometimes they cut and make it a monologue.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right, Right. Well, he goes into this whole song or monologue about, you know, there was a woman just like you and she was waiting for her, you know, secret lover, blind date, and they found her floating in the river the next day or something. It tells this horrible story. It's like. Yeah, I don't know why he's. What's the motivation there? I'm not sure.

[Matt Kovlik]

I'm not sure either. Part of me wonders if. And I would love it if people wrote in to tell me sort of their interpretations of. Of George's perspective on that scene. Because it could be that he goes in with the intention of sussing out if it really is her and what she thinks of Dear friend and all this other stuff. But ultimately his dislike of her gets the better of him and he can't really connect with her. He just gets too antagonistic.

[Leah Horowitz]

His temper just, like, runs away with him.

[Matt Kovlik]

And it's really not until she finally breaks that I think he realizes that he was. That he was in the wrong. But the thing is, like, she does her. At the count of five, I'll scream, so you better go in soon. And she's doing that whole bit, and he's like, I just want to talk to you. Maybe we should go get a sandwich. I'm like, no, dude, you ruined it.

[Leah Horowitz]

No.

[Matt Kovlik]

And it doesn't happen that you ruined.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And she's. And she's made it very clear. Like, I've.

[Leah Horowitz]

Like, is it that he comes in and see. Like, he sees her and is. He's just so upset because he had this idea in his head of who dear friend was. And not only is dear friend, like, not who he. Not what he pictured, but it's this woman that he doesn't like. It's like, insult to injury. And then he's just so upset about that that he's not thinking about her at all. He's just, like, lashing out.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. I think part of it could also be that he's antagonizing her to get the worst out of her so he can confirm for himself, oh, this was never meant to be.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yes, she is dear friend, but dear friend is actually awful. And he. And what happens is she ends up. I mean, he pushes her to a breaking point, and because she's her. She does not crumble in front of him. She fights. Fights back, and ultimately says, you know, some very nasty things to him, which he absolutely deserves to get.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

But it's. She isn't an unkind person, so she almost immediately regrets saying it. And I just. I mean, it always gives me anxiety in the show. It gives me anxiety. And you've got mail too. Like, because the way that Meg Ryan plays it, which is also how Kingsley plays it. And. And I imagine Diane did as well, of just sort like. Of like, constant nervousness and, like. And getting really upset that he just keeps sitting there because she thinks her

[Leah Horowitz]

date's about to walk in. And if you. You're sitting there, he's not gonna. He's gonna.

[Matt Kovlik]

He's gonna leave. It's not even that it's him who's sitting there. It's like. It's like the man who would be who I. Who I care so deeply for. Like, if I miss the chance to actually meet him. And this could go somewhere. It's be. And because you won't listen to me. Like, it's.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's.

[Matt Kovlik]

It's fear. It's genuine fear.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. And there's, like, a time. There's a time crunch. There's a. There'.

[Matt Kovlik]

Like, I'm fighting. I'm sorry, but I'm fighting for my life is just like. I think that's.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, I love that.

[Matt Kovlik]

I'm fighting for life.

[Leah Horowitz]

Like.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yes, you are. She really is. Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. God, it's like the most important moment of her life, and that's who walks in to ruin it. It's just so unfair in her mind, you know?

[Matt Kovlik]

And he's, like, mocking the.

[Leah Horowitz]

The.

[Matt Kovlik]

Like this. What she thinks is a secret language. Language between her and Dear friend with. With the rose. Like, I, I. And you've got mail. It's that the moment he picks up the Pride and Prejudice with the rose in it, he's like, what is this? She goes, why would you do that? Like, leave me alone.

[Leah Horowitz]

Stop.

[Matt Kovlik]

Don't try to make me feel silly because I have a secret code with someone I care about. And it's. God, it's just so heartbreaking. And then when he goes and she sings Dear Friend, Dear Friend is one of those songs that is hilarious and devastating.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. It's a real one, two punch. I love that. The opening setup, it's like, charming, romantic, perfect cafe. Then as if it isn't bad enough, like, the whole intro, too. No wonder I feel so depressed.

[Matt Kovlik]

Your favorite songs on request. No wonder I feel so depressed Depressed.

[Leah Horowitz]

Like, it's Sheldon Harnick in a nutshell. Just that wit that. It's the ability to write something so beautiful and so funny at the same time and then leaves you crying at the end. All of her. All of the whole show. It's just all so funny and so sweet at the same time.

[Matt Kovlik]

Will you like me? Is a gorgeous song.

[Leah Horowitz]

So good. And I really think, like, having sung all of those songs, like, out of context, I really think it's, like, similar to Sondheim's writing, where it's all there for the actor. You really don't have to do that much. It leads you through, and if you just personalize it a little bit, you're golden. It's all so human and so, like. It makes complete sense. The emotional journey that each song takes. It's just like Chef's Kiss. Love it.

[Matt Kovlik]

Absolutely. Which leads us into Act 2. We get our solo song for RPAD, the messenger bike boy. The. The twink of twinks.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes.

[Matt Kovlik]

Who gets a nice little showcase to prove that he should be a sales clerk. What I always appreciate about RPAD is that he knows the truth of what happened with Marachek, and rather than use it for. For blackmail to get what he Wants. He uses it as an opportunity to show that he's. That he. To prove himself, which I think is just so, like, sweet.

[Leah Horowitz]

So sweet and earnest. Yeah, no, he's. He's. He's just like a good little soul.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And he proves, like, no, he's like, I've done my research. I know what everything costs. I know. I've watched everyone sell. I can do this. And Marich, basically, they come to a compromise where he's, like, going to be half messenger, half clerk. And dad eventually leads us into another amazing scene. George gets back to the shop. He learns from Marachek what's been going on. And he learns from Marachek that Amalia is not coming into work that day because she's called in sick. Her mother called in sick for her.

[Leah Horowitz]

I forgot about that. So does she live with her mother?

[Matt Kovlik]

I think it's important that she and her mother live together. Yeah, but they're both working women. So Amalia is home alone, because it's one of my favorite lines. George comes to bring her vanilla ice cream, and she goes, it's like Lerman Schmitz or something like that. Whatever the name of the. Hammerschmitz.

[Leah Horowitz]

Hammerschmitz.

[Matt Kovlik]

Hammerschmitz.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, no, Hammerschmitz is where she used to work. Okay.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, but it's something with a lip or something in there. Yeah, lip shits. And she says, oh, I love it there. My mother works there. Maybe she waited on you. And he goes, oh, right, yes. And he goes, oh, like short, kind of portly woman. She goes, oh, no. The spitting image of me. Everyone says, homie, much younger looking. It's such a.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes. Y.

[Matt Kovlik]

People ding on her sometimes. And the head waiter at the end of the show, at the end of Act 1, where she says, you know, oh, has. Have you seen this before? Women like me goes, yes. He's like, but don't worry. You're a nice, clean, presentable girl. Looks her up and down. Not a beauty contest winner. I'm like, poor Amalia. Can't catch a fucking break.

[Leah Horowitz]

Poor Amalia. But again, that's what makes her great. That she's not like, your typical. Like, she's not supposed to be this, like, model ingenue, you know?

[Matt Kovlik]

No, she's a beautiful woman, but, yeah, she's not.

[Leah Horowitz]

How old do we think she is? Because I always think about this. Like, I think the show can work. This is selfish, but I think the show can work. If George and Amalia are, like, in their 40s, I think. So they have to you know, because they. They seem like they both are kind of like, he's like a confirmed bachelor, she's almost an old maid. Like, why else would you start this relationship with letters? Like, if you were young and you had plenty of time, wouldn't she just, you know, go out and meet people?

[Matt Kovlik]

I think dramaturgically speaking, you can make an argument for those two being anywhere from 29 to 49.

[Leah Horowitz]

I think so. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

It can work in any of those directions. The thing about this scene, the where's my shoe? Vanilla ice cream scene is perfect.

[Leah Horowitz]

Perfect scene.

[Matt Kovlik]

Oh, perfect scene. And first of all, it's an opportunity for the actress playing Amalia to get a little frenzy, which I love.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes, I love it.

[Matt Kovlik]

Show that side of yourself. And it's like. It's like a little sung scene. Is it very cold?

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes, she told me it was cold. She's, like, kind of almost drunk, you know, like. Well, here's the other thing. She calls in sick. I always thought it was, like, an excuse. Right. But. But then she's kind of acting sick because she's, like, acting like cuckoo.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. And he says, you have a fever.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

I imagined that she probably was at that cafe until closing, which was maybe 10 or 11. Whatever. She's had wine, she said, and nothing to eat since noon. So I would imagine that plus, it being the dead of winter. Yeah. Probably messed her up a bit. She probably could have gone into work that day. I don't think she's so sick that she couldn't go. But I think the fact that she felt crummy and she was heartbroken, she

[Leah Horowitz]

walked home in the cold and. You know, in ye olden days, when you walk home in the cold or it rains, you fall ill. Because that's how things worked back then.

[Matt Kovlik]

And she was. And she was probably crying all the way home. So the wetness of her face, it all just added up.

[Leah Horowitz]

It congested her. And then she became. She got a sinus infection.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. But George, hearing that she's called in sick, that her mother called in sick for her and comes to see her, he recognizes just how much damage she did that night and sees how much she genuinely does love dear friend. Of how much really meant to her. And so not only does he realize, oh, no, she is the dear friend that I fell in love with and I need to fix this. And he's not entirely sure how he's going to yet, but he's. He's figuring it out. One thing he does do that I appreciate, it's still kind of fucking with her a little bit. Of telling her that he did meet dear friend.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right, Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

And.

[Leah Horowitz]

And said he was, like, fat and bald, essentially, and potentially old. Right.

[Matt Kovlik]

And part of it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, part of it is. Is kind of, I think, still kind of little testing her of making sure that. Because when she does eventually have to find out it's him, how far is she willing to go if she does love the letters? So, like, yes, it's a little bit of playing still, but it's no longer for male intent. He's got a genuine purpose now. And he tells her, okay, you know, here's what happened. He didn't stand you up. And also, like, he's insecure and all these other things. And you two will meet again, I'm sure, and I will see you at work in the morning. And she says, oh, and I. I don't think I hate you anymore. Which is really nice.

[Leah Horowitz]

Right? Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And she writes a letter to dear friend. But as she's writing letters, she can't stop thinking about George and the ice cream. It's one of the best songs ever in musical theater. It's a genuine monologue that is both musical, a showcase for the voice, but also so actable.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's so actable. And that's like. It's such a shame that it got. I don't know if it's overdone anymore, but there was like. Like I said, I felt like, guilty doing it for. There was a period of time when I was, like, right out of college when I think it was very overused as an audition song. Because if you're a soprano, how many songs are there where you can, like, act and be kind of funny and show your high C at the end? Not many.

[Matt Kovlik]

Not many.

[Leah Horowitz]

Not many. So everybody was doing it.

[Matt Kovlik]

You know, I hate to say this. I do. For the song that is so actable, I do judge Amalias, who kind of shortchange the high C at the end, who go like the ice cream.

[Leah Horowitz]

I'm like, no, no, no, you gotta hold that bitch. You gotta hold it.

[Matt Kovlik]

We.

[Leah Horowitz]

It.

[Matt Kovlik]

We've been waiting for it.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's. It's just. I feel like people who don't hold it are scared of it, probably, but I feel like it goes. If you're a real soprano, that's like, you're. I mean, I could hold that all day. Like, that's fun for me. That's like. Like, that should. That's your glory spot. Please. If you're hiring in Amalia, find somebody who can sing that easily, I beg you.

[Matt Kovlik]

And the song doesn't. I. I mean, listen, I'm not a soprano, so I've never had to sing it in that register before, but I feel like it's a song that doesn't tire you out before you get to it.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, no, it sits high. All of her stuff really sits pretty high. Honestly, it's a very comfortable role for a soprano. It's another reason why I love it.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, it's because they don't want to kill you. They're like, no, we want to. We want you to be able to act this. I mean, George is a wonderful thing. Because if you're. I mean, I would never cast a tenor in the role. It sits too low. But even as a baritone, like, he doesn't go beyond really an F. And. And you can obviously alter keys a little bit. But, like, the songs are not these marathons that are.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, I would argue her stuff is. I mean, perhaps because it was Barbara Cook. Right. Like, when they were writing it, did they know it was Barbara Cook already?

[Matt Kovlik]

No, she was auditioning for it. Cause it was ultimately down to her and Dorothy Collins. So I think they might have.

[Leah Horowitz]

Well, but maybe the keys were built around Barbara Cook.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, keys might have been written around her. And also, I mean, she was kind of a prototype for the soprano of that era. So I'm sure in their mind, they're like a Barbara Cook type in the way that when they wrote Golden Girls, they're like a Bea Arthur type. And they went, well, how about Bea Arthur?

[Leah Horowitz]

Well, I was just gonna say, I think that I would argue. I mean, I'm not a guy, and I don't know men's voices very well, honestly. But I think that her role is more of a legit singer role than his is. I think his singing is more, like, actory. Like, I would be okay with somebody casting a George more for his acting than his singing, as long as his singing was decent. But, like, I don't need an opera singer to be George, but I don't want to hear an Amalia who doesn't have a beautiful soprano. That would be like nails on a chalkboard 1000%.

[Matt Kovlik]

Because the truth is that we've had two major Georges who were not amazing singers. Daniel Massey, the original, was not an incredible singer. And Boyd Gaines was not an amazing singer. He sang better than I think people expected him to, because at that point, he was just a straight play actor. But they overcompensated because the following season, Roundabout did Company. And he was Bobby. And that's when they're like, oh, right, you're not a singer. Singer, Right. Yeah. God bless. And we love the Gaines. We're Gaines girls here.

[Leah Horowitz]

I love him so much. I think I met him once in passing, and I think I gushed over him. I just couldn't help myself. Very nice guy.

[Matt Kovlik]

And he also. I'm just gonna say this. If you're asking what my type is, I think I discovered it now. Boyd Gaines in the 93 she Loves Me is my type.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh. Oh, my God. So sexy. Like, just. Yeah. Just watching that Tony clip again, I was like, oh. Just brought back all my teenage feelings for him.

[Matt Kovlik]

Oh, my God. The exuberance with which he does that title song.

[Leah Horowitz]

Jumping all over the place, just vibrating, and then flings those letters at the end. He won, didn't he? Didn't he? He did win. Yeah. I mean, justifiably.

[Matt Kovlik]

Absolutely. That's the thing, is this is a show where most of the main actors have been nominated for the roles in some respects, or even won in some respects. So, like, Jack Cassidy, the original Kodai, won, and then in the revival, Gaines won for George, and Kunze was nominated for Amalia. Sallie Mays was nominated for Alona, and Jonathan Freeman nominated for the head waiter.

[Leah Horowitz]

Oh, my God. I mean, of course, yes.

[Matt Kovlik]

And it's scene steer. And then they go to London. Henshaw wins. Ruthie Henshaw wins for Amalia. Tracy Bennett wins for Ilona. And then I think Joseph Sinclair, he wins for George. And I think someone else is nominated. It might be the head waiter, or it might have been the Kodai, I can't remember. And then the last revival, you know, Krakowski, Benanti and Levi were all nominated. Nicholas Barish was nominated for a couple of our Pad. Not the Tony, but a couple of other awards. Yeah, but so, like, it's a show where it's easy to get acknowledged for any of these roles because it's been done in the past. So that's what's really fantastic.

[Leah Horowitz]

Well, and the material is so good. I mean, harder to get nominated with bad material.

[Matt Kovlik]

You know, it's. You could. People can try. People can try.

[Leah Horowitz]

They do. But it's, you know, easier when you have good stuff.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. Again, in that video with the three writers, they talked about this, where they're. They're all very impressed with their writing. And because they say, like, we're not entirely sure how we did it. Like, we know we're good at what we do, but, like, we've never Written anything that we're this proud of since. And this is like. Yeah, like, it's right before Fiddler, so, you know, they have. Have Bach and Harnick have their biggest hit. And masteroff only wrote one other libretta, which is Cabaret, which also a bigger hit.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

But they're all like, this show means so much to us. We're so proud of it. We're still not sure how we did it, so we kind of just like. Like, we kind of just marvel at what we did all the time.

[Leah Horowitz]

I love that.

[Matt Kovlik]

And masteroff is like, it's a. It's an impossible show to fuck up. And I think Harnet goes, I don't know. I've seen some directors try.

[Leah Horowitz]

I think you can fuck anything up. I mean, it's.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, some shows are fun.

[Leah Horowitz]

We've seen Guys and Dolls get fucked up, which I did not think was possible. And that was something.

[Matt Kovlik]

What I will say about that. Yeah, what I'll say about that. Guys and Dolls. That AI Guys and Dolls is. It did make me appreciate the material, really, for the first time, because I wasn't a Guys and Dolls Stan as a teenager.

[Leah Horowitz]

I wasn't either. Yeah, I honestly wasn't. I saw the one with Nathan Lane, too. I liked it. But I wasn't really a Guys and Dolls Stan until I did Guys and Dolls. And doing it made me realize how great it was because that just was, like, a joy, the whole thing, you know?

[Matt Kovlik]

The downside of that is sometimes shows that are not quite as good for the audience become some people's favorite shows. For example, my hot take is anyone who says Mystery of Edwin Drood is their favorite musical did the Mystery of Edwin Drood.

[Leah Horowitz]

I kind of feel the same way. I've never done it. But I do think, like, for a singer and people who love doing funny British accents, it's probably, like, a blast to do that show. But every time I see it at the end, I'm kind of like, eh.

[Matt Kovlik]

You know, it's like, it's fine, but it's long, it's fun.

[Leah Horowitz]

And I'm always like, what was the point of this? That's my main takeaway. Like, Drood sings that big song. This is such a tangent. But Drew sings that big one, that big loud song at the end.

[Matt Kovlik]

Oh, writing on the wall.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm like. And I'm like, what does this song mean? Like, what's the point?

[Matt Kovlik]

It's how Betty Buckley could belt an E. Not all right, but. But the difference between true and she Loves Me is you can do she Loves Me. And it's a blast. But it's also a blast for the audience.

[Leah Horowitz]

I think it's a blast for the audience. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And we gotta wrap things up soon, so I want to get to this final scene, which is so perfectly crafted and I thought was rushed so hard in the last revival, and it pisses me off. If you want to watch it done properly. Unfortunately, there's no professional footage of Fran, Antonio and Gaines doing it, but there is footage of Kunzie and Gaines, and it's beautiful.

[Leah Horowitz]

In the library. Yeah. And you're making me want to go to the library and watch that, because I do want to see Judy.

[Matt Kovlik]

Do you Can. You can see some of the. Of the Judy footage on Aurora Spider Woman from the press reels, so.

[Leah Horowitz]

Okay, I will watch that. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

Vanilla ice cream.

[Leah Horowitz]

I can't get to it yet.

[Matt Kovlik]

And the final scene is also on there on Aurora Spider Woman. But I definitely. I definitely recommend the library because by that point, I think it's like a month into the run. So, like, they're. They've already started to settle a little bit. Yeah, they're really comfy. But, you know, George knows that now. What he's got to do is he's got to endear himself to Amali because she already loves dear friend, but he needs her to start liking him. And so that 12 days to Christmas, yes, it's the frenzy. It's that big showstopper, but it's also

[Leah Horowitz]

those little interstitial scenes of the two of them and him slowly, like, wooing her.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

He's walking around without her knowing it, you know.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. He's walking her to the bus stop. He's lending her a book. Oh, now they're going out for coffee before she goes to the bus stop. And it's. It's gone so well that we're now the day before Christmas, and. And Amalia has invited him to Christmas dinner with her and her mother.

[Leah Horowitz]

Her mother. How romantic.

[Matt Kovlik]

I know, right? Well, and I'll always get it over with meet the mother alone. And she's like, oh, and dear friend is going to be there. And so now that everyone's gone and they're alone, he. Before he confesses, he says, you know, I want to talk about sort of when we first met and how attracted I was to you, but I know that I kind of ruined it. And she was like, I was attracted to you, too, but you were so awful to me, I just assumed you hated me. And I didn't know what to do. And it becomes this sort of what could have been. And for the briefest of moments, you're like, oh, no, it's gonna end this way. And it's such a perfect way without him doing this whole long speech. He starts singing back to her the beginning of the Vanilla Ice Cream where she's writing to Dear Friend, I am so sorry about that. I'm gonna start crying.

[Leah Horowitz]

I know, I know. Just thinking about it. And then the fact that she. She's. Then she goes into Dear Friend and she says, it's what I hoped for, that it was you. That always. That always makes me go, oh, well.

[Matt Kovlik]

Because it's such a.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's such a. So much. And there's so much anticipation. And the whole audience is like, come on, come on.

[Matt Kovlik]

And as Amalia, it's. You need to kind of. You're going through a lot of stuff because your brain is. Is going with all this random, emotional cluster fuckery.

[Leah Horowitz]

If you.

[Matt Kovlik]

In the Shop around the Corner movie, they wrap it up kind of the same way. And a little quickly, because he's like, now that you know I'm Dear Friend, how do you think? And she's like, well, mentally, I'm like, not sure what to think. She's like, emotionally, I'm thrilled. And she's like, so let's just go with that right now. And then you've got male. When it's revealed that it's Tom Hanks, like, Meg Ryan is crying, both with joy, but also confusion and a little bit of hurt. Her face is like she's putting it all together. Because it's a Little Sally Field, Mrs. Doubtfire. The whole time. The whole time. But also being like the whole. And I think she loves me probably gets it best. Because ultimately they go for just she. Like, it doesn't matter what happened with her.

[Leah Horowitz]

It doesn't matter. She's just so happy because she has fallen in love with him. And now she doesn't even have to worry about Dear Friend because they're the same person.

[Matt Kovlik]

Exactly.

[Leah Horowitz]

Because I feel like she's been falling in love with him, but also thinking, oh, but what about Dear Friend? And it's like, wait, they're the same person. Amazing.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. Why not both instead? There's the answer. Clever. And. Yeah. And the way that you. Judy and Boyd, they take their time in that final scene of the I was attracted to. And then I just don't know why Ellis did this. In the last revival where Levi sang it all a cappella. The I'm so sorry about last night. And he Rushed through it, sort of like, I need to get it over with. But it's written as you hear the.

[Leah Horowitz]

The tinkle. Tinkle. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And he sings it slowly and quietly. And when she says dear friend and boy just goes. And it's like, oh, it's so good.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's so tender. It's so tender. Yeah.

[Matt Kovlik]

And then they just embrace and it's so beautiful. And I'm talking. I was just tearing up talking about it. I. I was crying at the library. It was so.

[Leah Horowitz]

God. And then you kind of just want to watch them make out for an hour because it's just like. You know what I mean? Like, then you kind of. Then the show ends and you're like, I want to see their whole life together, like so. Just so happy for them.

[Matt Kovlik]

That's the thing that Master off talked about in that video that I. I had never clocked. And now I kind of hate him for putting it in my head forever because he says there's a sadness to the end of the show as well, because the show was. Came out in 63, 18 years after the end of World War II. He goes, this show takes place in 1937, Budapest. It's going to get taken over by the Nazis in about four years.

[Leah Horowitz]

I never thought about that.

[Matt Kovlik]

And on top of that, like, you know, it's going to be Nazi controlled for about four to five years. And then once it's no longer Nazi controlled, it's Soviet controlled. And really not until I think the late 50s, maybe. I'm trying. I'm never quite sure what the 1950s lyric and chess is specifically referring to. I think it's the Soviet uprising.

[Leah Horowitz]

I'm terrible with history and dates and stuff. Like, I read all of it, I absorb it. But then I can never put things in order in my head. But yeah, if you think about it, depressing. Let's forget that.

[Matt Kovlik]

I don't want to think about that. Like. But, like, in a way, you know, they moved away.

[Leah Horowitz]

They moved away.

[Matt Kovlik]

They went to Switzerland.

[Leah Horowitz]

Switzerland.

[Matt Kovlik]

That's what they want.

[Leah Horowitz]

That's right.

[Matt Kovlik]

They're smart people. They figured it out.

[Leah Horowitz]

They figured it out.

[Matt Kovlik]

Master off is like, all those people are going to be dead in eight years and went, no, they're not, Joe. I know you wrote Cat, but no, they're not.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, that's. I was just gonna say that he's looking at it from a cabaret lens. Like his brain has now written and lived through Cabaret and he needs to.

[Matt Kovlik]

He needs to stop it. Yep.

[Leah Horowitz]

Stop it, Joe.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, but. But I Also was like, I. The part of me does also kind of think it's. It's not just the World War II of it all, but it's this era that's gone by that we don't really have anymore. It's sophisticated and classy and sweet and earnest and intelligent.

[Leah Horowitz]

And two people cynical in any way.

[Matt Kovlik]

No.

[Leah Horowitz]

And two.

[Matt Kovlik]

Two lonely people who want the show's characters and its themes. You know, this is not a epic show that talks about, like, the injustices of the world or talks about the people uprising. It's not a Les Mis. Titanic ragtime ending.

[Leah Horowitz]

No, it doesn't have grand themes. It's very.

[Matt Kovlik]

No, but I think that's what makes it for me more moving than some of those epic shows because it is ultimately just about two lonely people who want nothing more than to love and be loved.

[Leah Horowitz]

It's about love. Yeah, it's about love. And also, I was thinking about the fact that, I mean, as like a just total nerd myself, like, how many shows love literature as much as this show does and romanticize and glorify love of reading and books Between George and Amalia and then Trip to the Library is all about, like, the magic of books and like, you've got the whole Anna Karenina. Like, I read Anna Karenina because of this show, because I wanted to know what they were talking about with the train station.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah.

[Leah Horowitz]

I.

[Matt Kovlik]

This show has tempted me to read War and Peace. I'm not going to do it, but

[Leah Horowitz]

I've never been able to start that one. But I'm a great read.

[Matt Kovlik]

I will do it. I do enjoy the Keira Knightley film, so maybe it's time. I just love that lyric, though. By the way, have you read War and Peace?

[Leah Horowitz]

War and Peace?

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. Like you'd like. Have you read that little sonnet yet?

[Leah Horowitz]

And we never find out, but I imagine she has. I bet she's read it.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah. Because she finished Anna Karenina a long time ago. So. Yeah, these are well read people.

[Leah Horowitz]

But, like, think about who else. Who. What other ingenue besides, it's like Belle from Beauty and the Beast and Amalia. Oh, Marian the Librarian. You've got three who, like, are well

[Matt Kovlik]

read and they're all awesome.

[Leah Horowitz]

They're all awesome.

[Matt Kovlik]

They're all awesome. And, and, and the only where Amalia is different from Belle and Marian is that they don't fall in love with the men that they need to change. He changes on his own for her.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yes.

[Matt Kovlik]

She's just living her life. That's. I think that's the best thing about Amalia, where we said she's living her life.

[Leah Horowitz]

She's living. Yeah. Does she change at all? I don't know. I don't know.

[Matt Kovlik]

I mean, I think she. I don't think so. Her arc is just. I think she. No, she. She doesn't have an arc of, like, emotional change other than, I guess, contentment and maybe a bit more of a assuredness of herself. But the same is also true of him. And I think that just. That's something that comes from which I know a lot of people. People don't want to hear. There's a bit of confidence you get when. When you start to care for someone and they care for you. Back of just knowing someone's in your corner, knowing that you have a touchstone. And I know people are like, you shouldn't define yourself by your relationships, but it's just connection in general.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah. Well, that's for you. I do think she must change a bit, because people who are meant for each other, I think, do affect each other in good ways and, like, kind of make each other better. So I should say that she probably does change for the better, but I think he has more of a journey. I mean, it's a little bit like. I was also thinking about Pride and Prejudice, like, kind of a similar. It's that, like, enemies to lovers formula that they always talk about now in, like, romance novels.

[Matt Kovlik]

Benedict and Beatrice or Benedict and Beatrice and much adu. Yeah, they are so right for each other, but they both have to shift a little bit before they can sit with each other yet. And so that's stuff.

[Leah Horowitz]

And they have to be vulnerable, too. Both have to be vulnerable and not, like, not put walls up.

[Matt Kovlik]

So 1,000%. Leah, I could talk about this the further.

[Leah Horowitz]

I know, I know.

[Matt Kovlik]

We both gotta get going, so we're gonna wrap things up. Where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Leah Horowitz]

Um, I'm on Instagram at the Leah Report, which. Don't even ask me what that means. I asked my friends to come up with a Instagram name for me, and that was the winner. But if you can think of a better one, please DM me.

[Matt Kovlik]

I'm.

[Leah Horowitz]

I'm open to suggestions, but, yeah, at the Leah Report on Instagra, and that's kind of it. I'm not super active on the other platforms. I'm more of a lurker.

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, same. That's fine. I think you're allowed to do that. Guys, if you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram. Only Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. We have a YouTube channel you can subscribe to. If you want to see me and Leah do this in real time. If you want to see my little show jacket.

[Leah Horowitz]

Want to see my giant headphones?

[Matt Kovlik]

Yeah, giant headphones. My giant show jacket. We have a discord and a substack. Feel free to join either of those. Those leave a review or a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps with the algorithm so more people can find us. You guys have been doing great with that lately. And that's it for now. Leah, as you know, we close out every episode with a diva Broadway or Broadway adjacent diva of your choosing. Who would you like to choose? Today?

[Leah Horowitz]

I am choosing Maria Friedman because I'm a. I've been obsessed with hers and since I covered her in Woman in White, there's nobody better. That's my opinion.

[Matt Kovlik]

Will you be mad at me if I don't pick a Woman in White song for her?

[Leah Horowitz]

No, I will not. You can pick any song. She puts her whole heart into everything she does. And if you don't know her, you should go down a rabbit hole.

[Matt Kovlik]

Today, those of you who only know her for directing Merilee, the woman is insane. And she's going to be Kimberly Akimbo on the West End, which I am very much.

[Leah Horowitz]

I might have to fly over and see her do it. She's the most present person I've ever watched on stage. She's always completely in the moment and she's not thinking about sounding perfect. She is just full on, like, balls to the wall. Whatever.

[Matt Kovlik]

The fact that she sounds great is incidental, but. Yes. Let's talk. I think maybe we should coordinate that trip together because I also want to.

[Leah Horowitz]

I would love to. I would love to.

[Matt Kovlik]

You, me and Dani, we're gonna make a three way trip.

[Leah Horowitz]

Yeah, yeah, we've been trying to figure that out. For sure. Okay.

[Matt Kovlik]

All right, well, we'll see you guys for the next one. Take it away, Mar.

[Leah Horowitz]

Bye. She could give cards and speedies to many other ladies, but she would make up her mind.