Deep Dive: THE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA w/ Adam Elsberry

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: Deep Dive – THE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA w/ Adam Elsberry

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Adam Elsberry
Date: July 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Broadway Breakdown plunges headfirst into Adam Guettel and Craig Lucas's 2005 musical The Light in the Piazza. Host Matt Koplik and guest Adam Elsberry—longtime friends and sharp-witted, passionate theater insiders—explore the musical from nearly every conceivable angle: its origin story, performance history, layered mother-daughter narrative, musical innovations, the original cast, design legacy, and both reasonable and bad faith contemporary criticisms. Their signature humor and candor—complete with zingers, heartfelt admissions, and plenty of four-letter words—make this an essential listen for theater geeks and lovers of complex new(ish) musicals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Introductions and the Show’s Entrance into Their Lives

• [02:43] Adam recalls seeing the original Broadway cast at Lincoln Center twice, describing it as a formative experience.

  "It was kind of the dream, like what you want in the Beaumont… grand and lush… a new musical, which made it even more exciting." – Adam ([03:57])

• Both host and guest reflect on early theater experiences: Matt with Contact and then Piazza at Lincoln Center.
• They set up the episode’s core: Piazza as a musical landmark for artists and audiences, even if its material legacy is sometimes debated.

2. The Show’s Legacy: Origin Story & Impact

• [11:19] Discussion pivots to the show's wider ripple effect.

  "What that production did for Lincoln Center, and how it announced Bart Sher as a new Broadway director to watch. It was the layup that led to Kelly O’Hara becoming one of our leading ladies..." – Matt ([09:30])

• [35:32] Backstory: Adam Guettel, the Rodgers/Hammerstein dynasty heir, was tipped to the Elizabeth Spencer novella by Mary Rodgers (his mother). Efforts to musicalize it stretch back to the 1960s (Rodgers & Hammerstein considered it), but Guettel and Lucas found their version after stints at Sundance, Seattle, Chicago, and finally Lincoln Center.
• Casting Drama: The original workshop and pre-Broadway casts saw multiple changes: Kelli O’Hara originating Franca, Celia Keenan-Bolger originally as Clara, and Matthew Morrison replacing Steven Pasquale as Fabrizio on Broadway due to scheduling conflicts ([48:08]–[54:46]).
  • Notable Transparency: The podcast highlights an open, sometimes painful, conversation between Keenan-Bolger and O’Hara about the circumstances of O’Hara taking over as Clara ([50:36]).

3. Story & Thematic Breakdown

• [13:01] Adam recaps the plot:
  • Margaret, concerned for her daughter Clara (who, after a childhood accident, is mentally “younger” than her age), tries to protect her from heartbreak when Clara falls for Fabrizio, an Italian young man, during their 1950s trip to Florence. The show explores mother-daughter bonds, the line between care and control, and the bittersweet, open-ended nature of growth and love ([15:01]–[16:25]).

  "I'm probably gonna cry recording this podcast. I just… I find this show so touching. It is so sincere." – Adam ([15:08])

• [17:51] The musical’s lush orchestrations are dissected, with shoutouts to co-orchestrators Adam Guettel, Ted Sperling, and Bruce Coughlin.

  "The whole score just has such an incredibly lush sound... glistening piano... like bathing in sunlight." – Adam & Matt ([18:42], [19:39])

4. Style, Orchestration, and Dramaturgy

• [18:42] They extol the nontraditional orchestrations, use of Italian language, and Romantic, folk, and classical influences.
• The show’s opening numbers ("Statues and Stories", "The Beauty Is") demonstrate its unique mother-daughter musical interplay and the psychological realism of Clara’s character.

  "Clara does still have childlike mentality about her... You have to find moments of childlike joy but also find moments where she can be comfortably a woman." – Matt ([64:13])

• Discussion of the musical’s memory/flashback structure, fluctuating points of view, and the significance of Margaret’s asides to the audience ([28:03]).

5. The Question of Clara’s “Condition”: Nuance Over Binary

• [75:51]–[81:43] Both hosts dive deep into the play’s most sensitive point: Clara’s neurological and psychological makeup, how it is misunderstood by critics, and period-accurate views of mental health in 1950s America.

  "What the show is exploring… is the stigma on the handicapped that everyone has, even if they don't want to admit it." – Matt ([76:25])

  • They argue the musical is not “questionable” or “creepy,” as some allege, if you pay attention to its nuance and the era’s lack of understanding about neurodiversity.

6. Cast, Characters, and Difficulties in Reviving Piazza

• Discussion of the challenges in casting:
  • Clara: Must be both physically mature and emotionally/psychologically nuanced; neither too childlike nor generically “innocent woman.”
  • Fabrizio: Needs a delicate mix of impetuous boyishness and genuine lyric, romantic presence.
  • Margaret: Requires depth, maternal warmth and toughness, and a voice capable of operatic color.
• Commentary on later productions (Encores, concerts, UK versions), challenges with recapturing original magic, and the dangers of casting too young or too “girlish” for Clara ([168:24]–[170:05]).

7. Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

On the Show’s Humor & Musical Structure

• "There is a joke at the very end… it's a really fun little right before the button… the first song where the audience really kind of hoots and hollers." – Matt ([58:05])
• "The humor in Piazza is done to cut up the sugar, not to undercut the sugar." – Matt ([97:41])

On the “Grey Area” of the Ending

• "It's a very… the ending is very touching. The show ends with Margaret… agreeing to allow Clara to marry Fabrizio… her fear for Clara's wellbeing as she moves on… accepting that… but that's sort of the grey area that this show ends in." – Adam ([15:01])

On “Dividing Day” and Margaret’s Loneliness

• "She sits down and she lights a cigarette… it’s like… lord Jesus, get me through the rest of this day. That cigarette says a lot." – Adam ([119:03])

On the Show’s Impact and the “Tony Awards Effect”

• "Light in the Piazza is the best example in the 21st century of the Tony Awards effect… what it did to its popularity and what it did to its reputation." – Matt ([88:17])
• "It ends up playing that whole summer to really strong sales… became this turning point for Lincoln Center." – Matt ([160:13])

On the Iconic Staging (Silhouette/“Clara’s Interlude”)

• "She [Kelly O’Hara as Clara] runs along the psych and is just in silhouette and you see just how massive this theater is… this stunning moment." – Matt ([150:06])

On the Importance of Nuance (Mental Health & Period Attitudes)

• "Would you trust a doctor in 1939 about your mental state?... the number of women that got sent to mental institutions because they were, like, maybe just… bipolar…" – Matt & Adam ([80:55])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• On Clara’s Growth:

  "There is development happening. She does process things in a mature way sometimes and does understand how things do work… There is a bit of her mental growth." – Adam ([138:10])

• On the Broadway Original’s Impact:

  “What made that original production so successful was not just the beauty… The details… are so meticulously of that world. And it’s why you feel so swept away in it.” – Matt ([119:03])

• On the Show’s Sincerity:

  "It is so sincere… the ending is very touching... accepting that the only way for Clara to grow and move on is for something like this to happen…" – Adam ([15:13])

• On Orchestrations:

  "The whole score has such an incredibly lush sound… Even though a lot of the songs have different sounds to them." – Adam ([18:42])

• On Casting Kelly & Clara’s Voice:

  "It’s the fluctuating of Clara’s maturation…" – Matt ([54:46])

• On “Fable” and Emotional Catharsis:

  "Clara, the light in the piazza, she sees it." – Adam ([157:25])

  • Adam admits he is crying while recalling the show’s ending ([157:07]).
• On the Show’s Humor (“I don’t speak English but I have to tell you what’s going on”):

  “Every critic had a problem with… [that] line that we all look at iconic today.” – Matt ([30:33])

  • Sondheim’s (in)famous facepalm at that moment: "Sondheim literally facepalmed." ([30:59])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------|----------------------| | Opening & Personal Intros | 00:21–04:46 | | Show’s Legacy & Impact | 08:51–12:13 | | Plot Recap & Thematics | 13:01–16:25 | | Orchestrations/Sound | 17:51–21:58 | | Original Cast/Casting Drama | 41:26–54:46 | | The “Clara Question” & Mental Health | 75:51–81:19 | | Dividing Day / Margaret’s Solitude | 116:21–121:33 | | Act 1 Finale / Original Staging | 128:09–129:55 | | Tony Awards Effect / Critical Reception| 159:17–164:38 | | Encores Production & Difficulties | 167:10–170:24 | | Dreamcasting / Closing Thoughts | 170:28–173:38 |

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The Episode’s Tone

• Passionate and Unfiltered. Adam and Matt share inside-baseball theater knowledge, personal anecdotes, and don't shy away from critiquing critics or laying bare the show’s flaws and triumphs.
• Irreverent, Yet Deeply Analytical. The banter is fast, foul-mouthed, and witty, but the analysis is nuanced and thorough.
• Nostalgic, Yet Forward-Looking. The legacy of the musical and hopes for its future are thoughtfully debated.

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Final Reflections

The episode closes with legacy talk, dream casting (Kelli O’Hara as future Margaret, Carmen Cusack as Signora Nacarelli, and more), and a tribute to original cast member Sarah Uriarte Berry. The hosts reiterate how The Light in the Piazza remains a rare, intimate, and imperfectly perfect work whose core—love, risk, and human growth—still radiates for those willing to step, sincerely, into its Italian sunlight.

“Margaret finally decides she has done the right thing. And then you see her not only give Clara away, but join the Nacarellis…. She gets to be a part of her family again.” – Matt ([158:07])

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Next Episode Preview:
Another deep-dive into a great American mother-daughter musical: Next to Normal.

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For More:

• Subscribe/follow: bwaybreakdown.substack.com
• Join the Discord and/or Patreon (details in episode description).
• Contact Info: Instagram @MattKoplik; Adam on IG as @AdameLs

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Diva Outtro:
Sarah Uriarte Berry sings “Safe in the City” from Taboo.

Transcript

[A]

Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown on podcast, discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Matt's Picks and it is covering shows that you submitted. And I didn't pick out a Sally bowl, but I wanted to cover anyway. My guess, Oh, I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated father Broadway podcast host, and don't you ever forget it. And with me today is a friend of the pod, Legend of the pod. Some might call him Gunkle of the pod. Please welcome back to the Broadway Breakdown Adam Els story.

[B]

Oh, well, Matt, I don't speak English, but I have to tell you what's going on. I'm back.

[A]

Gunkle, what happened here?

[B]

What did happen here? We played a tricky game on a podcast, Matt Box. That's what happened.

[A]

Oh my God. I just. So the listeners know, I don't know how the next however minutes are going to go, but just know that getting to this moment in time with Gunkle to sit down and talk about this musical has been an ordeal. Everything other than the musical itself to was an ordeal. And so, I don't know, I thought I had detoxed my mood and then Riverside decided to be a fucking cunt twice. So we'll see, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see.

[B]

It's gonna be great. We're gonna have a great time.

[A]

I've never wanted to shout IU to me more in my entire life. Adam, Adam, what musical are we talking about today?

[B]

The Light in the Piazza. I'm so excited.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited. Listeners have questioned if I genuinely love this musical or if it's more of a running joke because we play the overture when I read the reviews.

[B]

Sure. Uh huh.

[A]

I know I've mentioned this once in a Q and A, but I think I should say this again. The running gag of the overture being played while we read reviews is something that actually started, I believe, when John Miscavige and I were co hosting this together. And when we were reading reviews of the podcast, we would say, cue the lightning, the piazza overshore. And we just kept it. So it's. Yeah, but. But it also comes out of genuine love of this show.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's it, it, it. It's the. The legacy lives on.

[A]

Adam, how did the light in the piazza enter your chat? How did it come into your life?

[B]

So, okay, so I have to start off by saying that this is the first show that you and I have talked about on here that I saw, the original Broadway. Yes. So that's. So it's extra exciting because not only do I have, like, just knowledge of the show because it happened like it came out in my early 20s, but I also got to witness it in person at Lincoln center in the Vivian Beaumont Theater twice. So that's so. So my first exposure to it was at Lincoln Center. I didn't really know anything about it going in. I knew Vicky Clark was in it. I knew that Kelli o' Hara was in it. Oh, and I knew Matt Morrison was in it, and I think that was about it. And I. I was familiar with Adam Guettle. I've. I didn't really know Floyd Collins, and I knew. Oh, what was that? Myths and Hymns, his concept album. I was familiar with those things, but I didn't really have a solid sense of Gettel's range, and I knew who Craig Lucas was, so I was excited. But it was such a. Seeing it in that theater was incredibly exciting. And it was kind of like it wasn't the first show I saw at Lincoln center, which was the Beaumont, which was the Frogs, which was its own separate. Its own separate story. But this really was kind of like the dream, like what you want in the Beaumont. Like, you want a show that utilizes the full depth of that football field of a stage. And I still think they probably had several hundred feet behind the psych for that show. Like, there's so much room, but it was just a show that felt so grand and lush and exactly what you want to experience in that space. And it was a new musical, which made it even more exciting because this was post carousel, but before the other big musical revivals that have become their more mainstay thing in that theater. So, yeah, that was my first exposure to it, was getting to see it live in the room with that original cast.

[A]

So, first of all, you're telling me of all the episodes we covered, you weren't there to see Do I Hear a Waltz in person?

[B]

Believe it or not, even though I was. I know, I know. I'm. I'm so old, but I'm not that old.

[A]

It's okay. You look better than I do, and you are fully 30 years older than I am.

[B]

Don't give away my age.

[A]

No, I'm. I'm just saying I'm simply 15. But my first show at the Beaumont was Contact, which talk about a show that made absolutely zero use of the depth of the Beaumont stage. As far as I was concerned, the Beaumont only was a thrust. I didn't know there was anything wrong.

[B]

Right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They only use the thrust for that show. That's right.

[A]

Yeah. And I. I enjoyed that space, but it. I didn't think much was beyond it. I remember thinking when I saw it, like, there's got to be more beyond, you know, this apartment and these stop and whatever signs. And when it didn't go further than that, I went, oh, I guess, maybe not. And then Piazza was my first time back and that. And so while I loved Contact and I thought it was a really beautiful experience, Piazza was my first genuine musical. And. Yeah, yeah, I think, because people don't really consider Contact much of a musical. Piazza was kind of the first musical hit Lincoln center had since Carousel. But it's the. The scope of the kind of hit it was, I think, is something we will discuss today because we look back on it differently than I think people were looking on it then. But. And. But we'll. Yeah, we will discuss. We'll discuss. Because one of the things that's fascinating and consistent with the re Is with the reviews of Piazza. Like, just reading all the reviews for the Broadway production, I'm like, oh, wow. Like, everyone's in disagreement of the thing that doesn't work, but everyone basically. All the reviews are basically saying, you know, this is an important musical that's trying really, really complex things, and I don't think it's very good. And here's the thing that makes it not good. And every critic thinks something else is the problem. And I go, fascinating, Fascinating. Yeah. The only thing that everyone was consistent on was it looks beautiful and Victoria Clarke is amazing.

[B]

Correct. Those two things were very true.

[A]

They were very true. But there were also many other things that were true that it's just fascinating to read these critics not understand.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Before we delve deeper into it, I think nowadays, because so many people's first exposure to it is probably the cast album, which gives you a better chance to sort of soak everything in and you can rewind if you like, a song where experiencing that show in the room, I guess, sort of similarly to maybe like a Sondheim show, There was a lot of music that you were having to attune yourself to in the moment, because it wasn't. Even though there are songs that are very familiar to people now in that moment, it was a very different style than you were hearing regularly in the theater. And so it was like attuning your ear to the sound, which was a combo of Very classical and sort of operatic and also contemporary musical theater sort of mushed into one piece.

[A]

And some folk music in there, too.

[B]

Folk, yeah. And then the scale of the production and then just the plot, which I know we're gonna get into, but, like, wrapping your mind around, like, what? Okay, so this is the plot of the show. Got it. Interesting. And, you know, just. And I mean, I can tell you without going into the plot. I remember getting to the end of act one and me, like, gasping. I was like, what is gonna happen? Like, it was. The staging of the show was genuinely thrilling to watch. And I do remember having visceral, excited reactions to a lot of it because it felt. It felt. It felt really fresh in that moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It just felt like something I hadn't had an opportunity to see at that scale before.

[A]

I. So part of the reason why it's interesting to kind of look back on Piazza and that original production is when we talk about legacy. I'm not sure how much the material itself has created a ripple effect on Broadway so much as the people involved. That original production. That's sort of the ripple effect, because what that production did for Lincoln center and how it. And how it announced Bart Share as a. You know, at the time, it was like a new Broadway director to watch. And now he's become sort of like one of the go tos. It was the layup that led to Kelly o' Hara becoming one of our leading ladies of Broadway. It was.

[B]

There's.

[A]

One of the reviews I read was so fascinating because I. I really didn't know anyone in the company when I saw it. At the time, the only two people who I recognized were Matt Morrison because of Hairspray, because I was 15 when I saw it, and Michael Baress because he was actually kind of my sexual awakening. And I. And I never, never forgot him. And I was out at this point, so I was allowed to lust after him. And I was still lusting after him, and I'm still lusting after him. And I think he knows that, but.

[B]

Well, if he's listening to this. Hi, Michael. Bress. Your arms. I'll never. I'll never stop thinking about your arms climbing that. Kiss me, Kate. Set. Well done.

[A]

Michael. If you're listening to this, I'll never stop thinking about your arms, your chest, your legs, your face and your hair and just everything about you. The man is walking sex. He will be. He will be walking sex until he can no longer walk, and then he will be rolling sex. You know what I mean?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

One of the Reviews I had read because I didn't know really much about Vicky or Kelly's careers at that point, but one of the reviews said, this isn't gonna be the show that launches Kelli o' Hara's career, but it might be the show that gets her entryway to like, to the thing that will launch her career. And. And they kind of were right because it was the blue chip that got her pajama game and pajama game and all. And. And pajama game kind of started the narrative of, oh, Kelly will can go against type if need be. And because of Piazza and her relationship with Bart and then her relationship with Lincoln center that got her South Pacific and South Pacific became the thing that, like, made her okay. Now she's three time Tony nominee Kelli o'.

[B]

Hara.

[A]

She's here to stay and just. But like so many people involved with the show who have become so much more prominent in theater who really weren't at the time. This was sort of their. Again, this was everyone's level up. And so that is. I think that's more of the legacy than the material itself, which is a shame because I think the material itself is astonishing.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it's a really. Yes. I mean, I know we'll talk about all of the quote unquote things that are wrong with it, but I think as a full piece, it's kind of an amazing piece of theater.

[A]

Yeah. I think. Spoiler alert for the listeners. As you can tell from our problematic Question Mark series, there are things about Piazza that I know some people find questionable. And I. I guess my spoiler is that I don't think it's questionable. I understand fully what the show is going for and what the. Not what the novella is going for with these plot points. And we will talk about it of why. I understand why it makes some people uncomfy, but I think there's a lot of bad faith criticism about it. And I want to talk. And I look forward to talking about it with you today, Adam.

[B]

Hey, that sounds great. Let's do it. So.

[A]

Okay, Adam. For the uncultured fucks. Also, I. Oh, the other thing I wanted to say. I've talked about this before on the pod, that Piazza kind of crystallized what made me a monster because, oh, I saw Caroline or Change in May of 2004, and I saw Piazza in April of 2005. So those 11 months, those two bookends turned me into the esoteric asshole that I am today and, and made me this just over analytical disaster. And so I Have no regrets. I'm happy with who I am as a theater person now. But if any of you have complaints, you can blame this and Caroline or change. And here we are. So here we are. Cultured fox. What is the story of lighting the piazza?

[B]

Uh, okay, so Light in the Piazza centers around a mother and a daughter. Clara and Margaret Johnson. Sorry. Margaret's the mother, Clara's the daughter. For anybody who doesn't know, it's in the early 1950s. They're on a trip to. They're in Florence. We find out in the prologue that they're there to revisit where Margaret and her husband had their honeymoon. But they're going back more as an art trip because Clara likes art. It's their very first day in Florence, Italy. They're in the middle of a piazza with everything going on around them. The wind blows Clara's ha. And it is caught by the uber Italian twink puppy, Fabrizio Naccarelli. And he and Clara have fallen to immediate attraction for each other. And the remainder of the show really centers around the two of them wanting to be together and the reasons why Fabrizio's family, who are Italian, and Clara's family, who are American. The reasons why Fabrizio's family don't think it will work. Alth. They're more for it initially.

[A]

They're pretty supportive. It's more that she's American, but they.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And. And then the reason behind why the Johnsons don't want Clara to be with him, which is their concern for her mental health. This is going to be a whole separate conversation. But we find out that Clara is mentally challenged. She is 26, but operates somewhere along the lines of the brain of somebody about 10 or more years younger than herself, operates from a much more naive state of being. None of the Italian family has any sense that there is anything not, quote, unquote, normal about her. It's not until the second act there's a discovery that there's something not normal, quote, unquote. And by the end of the show, the issue has nothing to do with Clara's mental state, but with her. Margaret allows Clara to decides to allow Clara, against the father's wishes, to marry Fabrizio. Clara's going right, filling out all the paperwork and everything. And Fabrizio's father discovers that she is, in fact, 26, and Fabrizio is only 20, and he has a major issue with the age difference. And meanwhile, Margaret is struggling to keep this secret about Clara's mental stability in hopes of not. Of everything not completely falling apart. But in the end, they. They tie the knot and we're sort of left at an uncertain note. There's. It's. It's a very. The ending is very touching. Um, I'm probably gonna cry recording this podcast. I'm just gonna say I've made Matt cry on this podcast before, but I have never cried myself. Today may be the day. I love this show. This. I just. This. I find this show so touching. It is so sincere. But the show ends with Margaret agreeing to allow Clara to marry Fab. And her fear for Clara's well being as she moves on into adulthood, but also her, whew, I'm already going. Her understanding that the only way for Clara to grow and move on is for something like this to happen to her and accepting that. But that's sort of the gray area that this show ends in. It's a bittersweet ending.

[A]

Yeah. There's a lot of discussion and debate over exactly what might happen to Clara and Fabrizio there. You read a lot of think pieces, and some people think that the show implies that they're doomed to fail at some point, and others think that. That the show believes that they're destined to be happy together. But that also leads to discussions of how the show views Italians. And I think, again, as I said, so much bad faith criticism that overly simplifies what I think the show is doing and what the novella itself does, which is crazy to me. For people who speak about art and acknowledge the fluidity and the nuances of art, it's crazy when you see how binary people think about morality in pieces. You could argue that's because they might think that the show itself, or the painting or the ballet or the opera or whatever that they're reviewing, they might find to be wanting. And thus when they find it wanting, they see all the flaws and they think everything's overly simplistic. And this is a show that I don't find to be wanting. And so I have no problem swimming in the gray areas that it delves into. Mostly because this is a show. This is a score, first of all. That absolutely washes over you. It is it the moment that. Over the moment that overture begins, you feel like you are bathing in sunlight. It is.

[B]

Well, let's. I mean, let's talk about the orchestrations first and foremost. Just because they. They're. They're Tony winning. Who it was. It was co. Orchestrated by Adam Gettle, Ted Sperling and Bruce Coughlin.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Additional pieces by Bruce Coughlin, Sperling and

[A]

Gettle orchestrated it together because Sperling worked on the piece pretty much from its inception. And it was. It was orchestrated for, I think, four pieces when they were at Seattle. I don't know how many pie. As it was when they moved to the Goodman. It might be the same amount because that was a co pro and they. And I think it was sort of. Basically, it wasn't an exact replica because Michael Jurgen signed on as the set designer for Goodman when he wasn't at Seattle. But I feel like Bruce came on board for Lincoln center when they needed to beef up some stuff. Mm.

[B]

Sure. But it's. I mean, it is like the. It's. The whole score just has such an incredibly lush sound to it. It sounds. It just sounds so. And throughout the entire show, there is this glistening piano that will continue to appear that is just like. I don't know that I've ever heard piano used in this way in a score where it just is. I mean, it is sort of used to give you the mental visual of a glistening light. And it really does do that. The sound of that glistening piano, which is most prevalent at the beginning of the title song, but it appears elsewhere throughout the score, is just so. It really brings a cohesiveness to the entire score and makes the whole thing feel like such a piece. Even though a lot of the songs have different sounds to them.

[A]

Yeah, no, the whole score is a sweeping magnum opus. It has different facets of romanticism, but. Right. And. And of earnest and earnestness, but ultimately just goes for this sweep that catches you, you know, in the. In the back of your throat. Again, when I say, like, the overture begins and it just sounds like sunlight coming out in the morning. And the main theme. And also, you know, if you ever see the show, the. There's no real overture. It's basically the first minute of the overture track that you hear on the album and then goes right into basically statues and stories. But still, even with that main theme, it's so lovely and it just kind of goes right on from there. And there's just so many moments in this score that fill me with such optimism and such beauty. And it's. It. The whole thing, I love, but it's. There are certain pockets that I'll always come back to. And part of it is I also remember in my brain how it was on stage. And then that is verified by, you know, various bootlegs and Tony performances and going back to the library to watch it of, you know, Clara's from the Heart in Statues and Stories from the Heart. The painting. Fabrizio, your skin is like milk. And la pazegiata. Just things. Things like that. I sort of. So I'm working on a musical right now with my collaborator, Mattie DeCarlo, who's been my director for my play. And now we're working on this musical, and we're in the process of finding a composer. And we had a meeting the other day because I had in my head sort of how I hear the score, and he's like, okay, if we can't find someone who maybe can give us that aesthetic, what is a vibe we want them to think about? And I said, the feeling you get when Fabrizio and Clara figure out what Fabrizio is trying to tell her in Passagata. It goes here and here. My skin. Ah, your skin is like milk. I said, if we can bottle that and put that in the. Make that the whole score, like, that's what I want. That feeling of when he doesn't. He's unclear. There's that moment of sexual tension. Is here.

[B]

Your milk?

[A]

Yeah, your milk.

[B]

My milk is what?

[A]

What? What? Milk? No, Camilo keys. Sorry, I can't. But you know what I mean, that. It's that moment when it finally breaks through. Ah, your skin is like milk. I said, if we can bot. What. I want the score to be, like 24 7. But just moments like that that just always get to me. And it's not even just the romanticism. There's. There's such an underlying sadness, but a joy in that sadness of, like, you know, something's meaningful as you're. If you're losing something and there's sadness, that means, you know, it would. That it's something worthwhile or something that was good having. And that this is a momentous moment occasion. So Margaret letting go of Clara and all of Fable, the moment before Fable, when she says, I can't leave you. And the way that Victoria Clarke says, yes, you can, is just. It fucking wrecks me.

[B]

And it's unbelievable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, if for listeners. No, it's okay. For listeners who've never watched this show before, I do recommend hunting down a bootleg of the original cast, just because that whole group was really incredible together. The original Broadway cast. The Live From Lincoln center video, though, really is unbelievable.

[A]

It's a wonderful recording.

[B]

It gives you such fantastic views of every angle of that stage and what that show really felt like in the room. And it does a good job of that. They recorded it really close to the end of the run. And you can even tell at that point how. How emotional the show makes Vicki Clark. Cause if you watch the bootleg that exists on YouTube is from quite early in the run and when they first enter and Claire says, mother, what happened here? And she says, what did happen here? I played a tricky game in a foreign country. And it's very straightforward and direct to the audience. Whereas the Lincoln center version, she's crying before she even talks. She's revisiting the entire story that she's about to. They're not really reenacting, but Margaret does break the wall quite frequently in a way that sort of lets you know that she's recounting all of this for you, the audience and her entering the stage for the life of the Lincoln center production. She's wiping tears from her face before she even starts talking. And it's like you just, you know that this is going to be an emotional, an emotional plot to get through for her.

[A]

Yeah, the, the, the downside of the Lincoln center recording for me is I, I do think ultimately Aaron Lazar is a better Fabrizio than Matt Morrison in terms of just like, vocally, it's just so powerful and operatic. There is a boyishness to Mattress that Aaron is like.

[B]

It's the puppy dog quality.

[A]

Yes. And I want to talk about that more as we talk about casting, because we, in order to talk about the history of the show, we do have to talk about the casting switcheroos that happened up to Broadway.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because one of my biggest hot takes is that it's not just Celia who was kind of wrong for the role and why. What made Celia look so young.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But there's in retrospect, people give Matt Morrison a lot of shit for, you know, his Italian accent isn't the best and he doesn't have operatic quality of a lot of the company. I will go into that more as I talk about what makes him so successful in the role. I think that narrative didn't start until Aaron took over. And Aaron is. A lot of people's go to because they watch that Lincoln center recording. And Aaron's voice is unbeatable. And I understand why, in comparison to Matt, like, how that all goes down. Aaron's not my biggest gripe. My biggest gripe is ultimately Katie Rose Clark, who I think is a beautiful actress. I think plays the child whimsy of Clara a bit too much and ultimately just isn't quite the vocalist that I need.

[B]

She. Well, she was fresh out of college. I'll Never forget, like, she. She literally. She literally got cast right after graduating from college and went straight into this show. And for it being her first gig out of school, she really is fantastic. But having seen. But having seen Kelly, well. And yeah, Katie Rose Clark was 21. Kelly was, I think 28, 29. She was in early 20. But it made more sense for that role because you do want someone who has a maturity about them but plays the youthful naivete. Whereas Katie Rose Clark just came off as very young, which she was.

[A]

And that's. Again, we'll talk about this with casting as we get into more of the depths of each role. But yeah, that's. Clara is. I would argue that the three leads of this show, Margaret, Clara and Fabrizio, are phenomenal roles to have. They are also incredibly tricky to cast well because.

[B]

Agree.

[A]

Yeah. And. And there are people who have done decent jobs since the original company, but still do not touch what that original company did. Which is why I am not sitting here going for a musical that I adore, that I think is one of the greatest musicals of this century. I'm not sitting here going, willy nilly, revive it tomorrow. I go, no, no, no, no. I need to make sure that we've got people who can do it. Yeah, yeah. This is a hard show to cast.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And you can do that.

[B]

We need a franca that can hit that E, baby.

[A]

It's an F. It's an F. Oh,

[B]

it's an F. Never mind. Excuse me. We need a franca who can hit that F, baby. Yeah.

[A]

And we. The last time we saw it in New York, we did not have one. We know we did not have one. Do you remember I texted you. Cause we were at the same performance at Encores at N. And I said, did I not? I was like, did I miss the F? Did it happen? You said, I don't think it happened. And I just like, I texted you all angry emojis.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fuming. I was fuming.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So you don't really realize it when you listen to the cast recording. And I didn't really realize it for so many years of my life. I wasn't quite sure what that opening line for Margaret really meant. For a long time, I always thought that she was referring to something that had happened with her and Roy during their honeymoon. Only in my post Covid elder years do I realize that the show, in a weird way, is kind of a memory piece. Yeah. And all of Margaret's. Because Margaret, as you said, Margaret does break the fourth wall. A lot. And all of her asides really are kind of hindsight narration as she's sort of.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot of, ugh, I wish I should have done blah blah blah, or I only wish I'd known blah blah blah when. Yeah, she. She really does a lot of hindsight thoughts.

[A]

But it's not a boss menagerie situation. Cause she's reliving it in the present, but it is ultimately her reliving it.

[B]

Her commentaries almost future her stepping out and saying me in the past. But yeah. Cause she never is. Like, and then we took a trip to here and then we did this. It's not a full narrative. It's future her stepping out to be like. Like P S. This was a rough moment. And then jumping back in and. And doing it. And it's funny you said that about your post Covid self. It's. It is a show I. I find for myself as I. As I gain age, that I. That. That resonates differently for me also. Very much so.

[A]

I think the best things. Do you. So, okay, as I said, I didn't. The whole, like, narration of it all, which is again, something that a lot of critics at the time felt was cheap and a gimmick. And they. And they don't clock that it's sort of done as a memory. They just are saying, like, it's done. Craig Lucas does this to help the audience make more sense of things, but it overly simplifies stuff in a stupid way, which I think is dumb. But also the play. The. The piece kind of also plays a little fast and loose with theatrical devices because, you know, then Signora Nacarelli gets to speak a little bit to the audience at the top of Act 2, and it's the only time she ever. Well, no, she does it for a brief second in the octet. But overall, it's mostly Margaret who speaks to the audience. And I. I'm sort of sitting here going like, I don't know. When something works, it works and I don't care. Because another thing is the line that every critic had a problem with. Every single one. They all hated the. I don't speak English, but I have to tell you what's going on. A line that we all look at iconic today.

[B]

Well, I mean, if I. There was. Matt gave me the link to an interview with Adam Gettle from a couple of years ago, and he talked about watching the show when Sondheim came to see it and was. And he sat up in the booth so he could sit behind Sondheim and watch his head, to watch his reactions. And he said that all through Act 1, he seemed to be enjoying himself. And then Signora Naccarelli said, I don't speak English, but I have to tell you what's going on. And Sondheim literally facepalmed.

[A]

Oh, no. It was just like, hated it. He hated it, hated it, hated it.

[B]

Yep. But, you know, but here's the thing. But I could see Lapine doing a joke like that in something and Sondheim thinking it might have hilarious.

[A]

Sondheim was very fickle about when he thought something was smart, stupid. And when something was stupid, stupid. And, and I, and I would argue sometimes the things he thought were smart stupid, I disagreed with him on. I think he had very good taste in regards to his own work of holding himself to a high standard. But then there are some things I would argue most of the things he thought were good, I agree with. There were a couple things he thought were good that I disagree with, and it tended to be because they were being written by guys he was fucking or wanted to fuck. And then there are a couple things he thought weren't good that I look back on. I go, I don't know, Steve, I think you're being stupid about that. And that's okay. It's okay. Not our, not all of our heroes are perfect.

[B]

But that's right.

[A]

But it was just fascinating to read these reviews and see how critics who are supposed to be able to, if not not, you know, be perfect in their assessments, at least have a sense of nuance in their critique. And just how many of them boldly misunderstood the assignment. And, and that's fine. That's their cross to bear. But that opening, you know, begins with this, with this solemn line from Margaret, which then goes right into the memory. And that Statues and Stories is a song where it ultimately is. It's a one statement song. It's. Margaret and Clara have arrived in Italy and they're on vacation on. They're, they're, they're on vacation and it's just them on the square taking in the sights. And it's. And it also sort of gives you a great impression of how, how linked they are and also how differently they see the world. Margaret is buried in her book and she's speaking on all the historical facts that she finds very fascinating. Clara is, is wandering around looking at everything, observing people, interacting with the people, and she's the one who's living in the moment, which is very well on your.

[B]

And, well, and we should say the. During this opening number, you also watch this, this piazza, this town square become alive. You know, everybody, everyone starts to populate. The shops open up. There is a guy on a bicycle. You see a priest come through. There's a priest and a nun come through. You see people heading to work. People, you know, you see children playing. Everybody on.

[A]

It's halfway between Belle from Beauty and the Beast and I don't know, I don't know what's like another if, like if some. Someone just woke up from. Do I hear Waltz met Belle from Beauty and the Beast. That's this opening number.

[B]

Totally, yeah.

[A]

Oh, well.

[B]

And speaking of shows we've done, Do I hear a waltz? And this kind of actually bookends that show.

[A]

Oh, it absolutely does. So do you know how this actually. Well, so we're already kind of jumping into the show itself and. And we're gonna go all over the place, guys. Sorry about it.

[B]

But here we are.

[A]

You read a little bit about how the show came to be.

[B]

Yes, I did. So Adam Gettle, for anybody who doesn't know, or as Matt would call you uncultured fucks, sorry. So Adam Gettle is Richard Rogers grandson. His mother is Mary Rogers, who was also a composer. She wrote Once Upon a Mattress. She wrote the book of Freaky Friday for those who don't know.

[A]

Psych.

[B]

Yes, she's great. And her autobiography, Shy is fantastic. Read it. It's great.

[A]

It's amazing.

[B]

So she had read the original publication of this story. What was the novella had originally been published as pieces of a short story in what was the publication there?

[A]

In the New Yorker.

[B]

In the New Yorker, by Elizabeth Spencer. Thank you. But Mary Rogers had read and really liked it and thought there was something musical about it. And she had handed it to her father, Richard Rodgers, to collaborate on with Oscar Hammerstein as a new musical, possibly for them. I think maybe two months after she had handed it over to them, Oscar Hammerstein passed. And Richard Rodgers was like, I don't think this really speaks to me. But then ended up writing a musical about a woman going to Italy and rediscovering herself called Do I Hear a Waltz? Which Matt and I discussed just in depth. It's an okay show. As Mary Rogers herself would say, it's a Y musical.

[A]

That was your first episode on the pod, I think.

[B]

No, my first episode on the POD was Wild Party.

[A]

Oh, the two part deep dive of Wild Party. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That made a certain friend of ours mad, but yeah. Do I hear Waltz is your follow up, but it was your first. It Was your first new Broadway breakdown deep dive?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Cause we were just. We were doing comparison with Wild Party. But anyway, so it sat on the shelf for quite a while. And then Adam Gettle had had some success off Broadway with Floyd Collins and he was wanting to write another musical, but he wanted to write a love story, a romance. But he didn't want to write a traditional boy meets girl type of romance musical. He wanted something that had a little more complication and darkness to it. And. And Mary Rogers, his mother, gave him the novella to read. And he read it. He read it once and he never looked at it again. Which is, you know, kind of like it's Adam Gettel does O Mary a little bit. He did little to no research, but he liked the story quite a bit. And he reached out to Elizabeth Spencer and got the rights from her and then started writing, working on songs, and then brought on, you know, other people as things progressed. But that was the, the, the initiation of the, of this show happening.

[A]

Yeah. So he talked about this in his interview. The first person he worked on it with was Alfred Urie. At that point, he was a Pulitzer winner for Driving Miss Daisy and was about to win his first Tony for Last Night of Ballyhoo and was working On Parade with Jason Robert Brown. And this was, I think around 1998, that Gettle got the rights because Floyd Collins was, I think, like 96, 97.

[B]

Yeah, it was late 90s.

[A]

Yeah. Floyd Collins was one of those, like, minor hits where it would play to Playwrights Horizons for like a month. And it didn't end up moving to Broadway. And it got respectable reviews, but not like the kind of rave reviews that moves a show, you know, to a commercial house. But it was one of those things where even though there was a lot of reservations about it, everyone agreed that, that Adam Gettle had announced himself as a voice to listen to. And that was. That's the kind of check you can write yourself for your next project. And I don't think anyone was banging down the door for Piazza to be at that point, like Piazza kind of was this semi remembered property because the story gets published in the New Yorker where it kind of. I don't say it becomes a sensation, like it becomes very popular and to the point that they then separately print it as a novella. And at that same time it gets optioned for a movie, gets made into a mo. Olivia de Havilland and George Hamilton in like 61 62. It does. Okay. It's one of those sort of like it made money at the time. Ten years later, everyone kind of forgets about it. Right. And. And so Gettle kind of going to Elizabeth Spencer and wanting to option it. I'm not sure that she was necessarily foaming at the mouth, but it's not like anyone else was really banging down her door. So she was sort of going, yeah, if you feel that. If you feel like it might work, go for it. The. The critics tell me you're a guy to listen to. And so he works on it. He works on it with Yuri for, like, a little less than a year. And as he tells it, they both realized that they were writing different musicals, and Gettle's the one who owns the rights, and so Yuri leaves the project. I'm sure it was far less acrimonious than that, but that's how Gettle likes to describe it. He was like, it was fine. It was. Yeah. Like, it was very diplomatic and mutual. I'm like, right, Gettle. Because everyone who works with you says that that's what you're like. But so. So then he said that he briefly worked on it with Arthur Lawrence, who was his godfather, which is, if ever, if ever you want to know about the toxicity of the love hatred of theater people, read Mary Rogers's memoir and just know that everything she says about Arthur Lawrence, he was still the godfather to her son.

[B]

Well, and didn't Arthur Lawrence write the book for Do I Hear a Wall Waltz?

[A]

Yeah, well, because he wrote the play Time of the Cuckoo, so of course. So yes. And. And basically, I think what Adam Gettle said was they worked on it for, like, a second. And part of the reason why Gettle involved Lawrence was a. He had Time with the Cuckoo and Do I Hear a Waltz in His Blood. But also he was like, I respect him. He's a good writer, and I wanted him to work on another show. He hadn't worked on a show in a while, and I think basically Arthur Lawrence said something along the lines of, like, it's a good idea and I don't want to work on it. And so they moved on. I don't know how Craig Lucas came to be a part of it, but when he did, that's how a lot of things started to kind of roll really fast, because then the first time it really gets, like, worked on, worked on is when they work on it at the Sundance Theater Lab. And that's when Kelli o' Hara gets involved, as well as Celia Keenan Bolger. And I think they're the only ones who move forward with the project from there. Because Vicky didn't do Sundance, Vicki started in Seattle, someone else did because someone else was playing Margaret at Sundance. And at Sundance, Margaret was an alto, not a soprano. And part of what got Vicki the job was Adam Gettle decided he wanted Margaret to be a soprano and Ted Sperling was like, well, can I introduce you to my friend Victoria Clark?

[B]

I was going to say, and here's my best friend, Vicki Clark.

[A]

Yep. And I think Victoria said that either it was Bart Cher or it was Adam who thought she was too young for it. And her response was that's why God invented wigs. And, and she was right. They, they found a way to age her up in a way that made her, she was believably like hitting 50 in the way that it wasn't matronly. She looked like a beautiful put together like 49 year old woman, even though she was like 40.

[B]

Well, you know, and the two of the, the characters, I don't think I said this originally, they're, they're visiting. I, I said they were visiting Italy, but they're, they're from the south. They're from Winston Salem, South Carolina. So, you know, in the 50s especially women of that character's age would have been very, you know, especially wealthy women of that character's age would have been very put together and sort of refined

[A]

and would have had children at a young age. Age.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. If she had had Clara at the age of 20 or 22, it would have made complete sense that she would, she could look as, you know, almost like Clara's sister in some cases.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Because if we're there in the summer of 53 or either the summer or the fall of 53, it's a little unclear. Clara is born in 1927. And yeah, think about it, people, women were having kids between the ages of 18 and 23 almost constantly at that point. So yeah, Margaret's seven babies. Yeah. Margaret is knocking on the door of 50. She's not quite 50 yet. Yeah. So that's something to think about. But so yes, they, I. The reason why Seattle became the first place it went is because Craig Lucas is, was the associate artistic director at the Intamin in Seattle. So he had a working relationship. So that allowed them to go there. Bart Sher was the artistic director of the Intamin and if you read the press announcements, it's first announced that it's going to premiere there with Craig Lucas directing. And then there becomes a later announcement that actually Bart Sher is directing oh, and by the way, this is going to be a co pro with the Goodman and it'll be playing the Goodman like nine months after.

[B]

Surprise.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what was the conversation that led to that, in the same way that I'm not entirely sure what was the conversation that made Chris Catelli the quote, unquote, creative consultant of ragtime. But I imagine, I would imagine that I. I've heard that Craig Lucas is a healthy artistic individual, that he's not. That he's not problematic. And so I would hope that he maybe said, huh, I should maybe focus more on writing this thing than directing this thing. It. It rarely goes well for people, especially if this is your first time directing a musical, Craig. And so Bart comes in who hadn't really directed musicals but had directed operas. And so, so he had a little bit of experience in that realm and.

[B]

Well, which kind of served him when it moved to Lincoln center because he, he understood the scale of it.

[A]

Yeah, well, so. And the thing about the Intamin in, in Seattle, it's a small theater, but it's not a black box. And it's also. And it. You kind of have to make the most of what little you have there. And the Goodman is like a genuine 800 seat proscenium theater. And so you need someone who's able to a. Be able to develop a work for you, see it from the. See it head on. But then as you said, someone who's able to understand scale and not get overwhelmed by it, which is something that I think Bart has always been able to do well.

[B]

And the original product, the original production, meaning the Intamin production in Seattle, that production with the like three or four piece band, the band was on stage. There's a clip on YouTube that Matt sent me that has some show footage, but it's also interview Vicky Clark and somebody else might be Adam Guettel, I can't remember. But anyway, there's some clips from the. There's some brief clips from the show and you can see there's like a violinist who kind of interacts with the action at a couple of points. Like the musicians are there and I think sort of act as like Italian street performers almost, in a way.

[A]

It's very Jo Layton staging and no strings. It's giving very much that vibe.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Which by the way.

[B]

Oh, totally. That's what it is.

[A]

Historical. Deep dive, everyone. Jo Layton, no strings. Look it up.

[B]

That's 100%. Well done, Matt.

[A]

Thank you very much. Sometimes I read things but yeah, another Adam Gettle connection though because no Strings, Richard Rodgers first Broadway score after Oscar Hammerstein died.

[B]

Oh yeah, that's true.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I've only seen photos from that production but it looked very cool. I would have been so curious to see that show.

[A]

Yeah, it looked very stylish. But yeah, I mean. So the thing is it goes to the intimate with Vicky now as Margaret and Celia. Keenan Bolger reprising her performance as Clara cause she had done it at Sundance. Kelly o' Hara reprising her role as Franka. Right, It's Franka. Right. Franka. Franka and a couple of other people joined the company then that will take it to Broadway. Patty Kohenhauer plays Signora Nacarelli because she's living in Seattle at the time.

[B]

Love her.

[A]

Oh, fucking awesome. And then we also have Mark Herlick as Signor Naccarelli. He joins and he'll make Take it to Broadway. The big casting piece that doesn't get repeated. Here is Stephen Pasquale who we all

[B]

know one of the most incredible voices of modern musical theater. Like just insane.

[A]

One of the best male voices ever in musical theater. He is Fabrizio. And, and there's a, there is a feeling, there's a lot of talk of sort of all of the casting switches that happened. And then I feel like Celia got very candid in an interview in the last couple of years of what she genuinely think went down with her not going to Broadway. And I'll get to that in a quick second. Ultimately they go from Seattle to Chicago again for this. It's a co production if not a quite replica. But both theaters kind of put in the money to get this thing up and running. And the response in Seattle is strong. Response in Chicago is very strong. And in Chicago it's everybody except for Steven Pasquale and now it's Wayne Wilcox. Cuz Stephen Pasquale books a TV gig Rescue Me. And he has to film that because this is, I want to say this is January of 04 maybe that it goes to Chicago because it's. It's June of 03. That it's at the Intamin.

[B]

It's. It's early 04. Yeah. I don't remember the exact month, but it's early 2000. Yeah, like January, February.

[A]

Yeah. And then it runs I think till the end of March of 04. And then they announce I believe that May or June that it's going to be part of the Lincoln center show. It's going to be the spring show in the Beaumont. And if you read the announcement, they say that Tom Stoppard's coast of Utopia has now been pushed to the 05.06 season. Oh, how little did they know? But so I, I love reading shit like that where they're like, it's coming in in 06. I'm like, oh, is it? Oh, is it? What part of us.

[B]

Just you wait.

[A]

Just you wait. So as it's preparing to go to Broadway now, the entire creative team from the Goodman is praising as the creative team for Broadway. It's Bart shares Broadway debut. But there are three there. There are two new members of the company and one. Oh, sorry, no. Three new members of the company and one one older member who gets moved, which is that Kelly o' Hara goes from playing Franka to Clara. Sarah Wright Barry becomes the new Franca. Michael Baress joins as Giuseppe Fabrizio's brother, and Matthew Morrison joins the company as Fabrizio. Steven Pasquale was offered Fabrizio for Broadway and wanted to do it. And his TV gig would not let him out of his contract, even though allegedly Lincoln center was like, listen, if you ever have to shoot and it conflicts with the performance, you can go shoot. Blah, blah, blah, like, you know, we just want you. And Rescue me was like, we don't care. We. We want the option to have him on a Sunday, even if we don't know if we need him on that Sunday. So will not. Will not be happening. So he did not get to make his Broadway debut in Piazza, which he was meant to do, and that ultimately led to Matthew Morrison getting cast. Now, the narrative at the time, and what was said for a while was that ultimately Celia, who was, I think 25, maybe 26 at the time, that Piazza was coming to Broadway while she was, technically speaking, the right age, because Clara is supposed to be 26. She looked too young.

[B]

She.

[A]

And, and part, as we were saying earlier, part of the thing about Clara is that she is a woman. She is physically a woman and needs to present as a woman woman. And Celia just could not do that for them. Celia is a small person, famously has been playing children on stage for the last 45 years.

[B]

Well, and immediately went into Putnam county spelling bee and got a Tony nomination for playing a 13 year old.

[A]

So, yes, the same season as Piazza. This, this very same season, very bittersweet time.

[B]

But God, this was a good season.

[A]

It was. It was a good season.

[B]

It was so good.

[A]

And I do recommend you listen to. Celia used to have a podcast during the COVID times. Something like morning Pancakes or something like that. Yeah, it's a good. It's a good podcast. And. And. And she has really wonderful conversations, but she has one with Kelly that's really enlightening because it was really the first time that Kelly and Celia talked about the Piazza thing.

[B]

And I remember listening to it when it came out, because looking.

[A]

Looking back at. At the time that it was, I did not know anything about any casting drama or anything like that. I didn't really know much about Piazza when I went to go see it. And it wasn't until years later I learned that O. Celia had played the role originally. And I just always, in my head, I always just thought, like, oh, well, maybe there's a conflict with spelling bee. Or, like, I don't know, she's. Her voice is beautiful, but it's. It's not quite operatic in the way that I think they maybe might have wanted. I don't know. Like, it never seemed like there was any bad blood and that the whole thing was kind of still just magical. And then it wasn't until Celia. Celia's interview with Kelly where she and Kelly are very open about, like, no, it was. It wasn't nice when it happened. And that Kelly was. Did not want to audition for Clara and basically had to be told by the creative team, celia's not coming to Broadway, so you can either audition for it and keep it in the family or not audition for it and it'll go to somebody else. But, like, Celia is not playing Clara, so you're not taking this from her. You might as well just come in. And she did, and she got it. And she said basically, like, the whole. While she loved the experience. Experience. The first half of her run, she always felt like she was being a bit fraudulent and that the Tonys wasn't like the. The happy experience that it could be, because while she was grateful that Celia was being recognized for spelling bee, she always felt a little bit like, I stole your boyfriend. And even though she was like, Celia never gave me that impression. And we've always been good. But then they also kind of talk about how they never really got to have intimate, friendly moments like they used to until many, many years later. And it wasn't out of spite or anything, but just sort of. It was this kind of unspoken. We say things are okay, but we. At some point, we actually need to kind of talk about this. So that was really enlightening to me. But. And some point later, it might have even been on pancakes. Celia intimated. Is that right? Is that the word? I want to say she intimated, like she. She implies. She implies. Celia implies that she felt that the reason she wasn't brought to Broadway was because of Adam Gettle. That. Because she says that he was not present at her audition for Sundance. It was Craig Lucas who was present, and she was a Craig Lucas hire because she's a good actress. And he thought that she said sang it well enough and that she always felt at Sundance, at an Intamin and in Goodman, that Adam was never really happy with her vocal performance, which is crazy because you listen to her and she sounds lovely. She's also singing Beauty Is at. In Seattle, half a step higher than it ended up being on Broadway.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, she's. She. She sounded great.

[A]

She does sound great, but it's not like quite the rich sound that Kelly brings to it.

[B]

So I understand that it's a very. It's a very different sound. It's a. It is a much. She has that very clear as a bell, young, youthful sound, and Kelly just has a richer, slightly more mature sound, which I think for the character that they. That the original production was trying to present, I think that the Kelly choice makes sense for that production.

[A]

Yeah. Well, especially because you hear it in the way Kelly sings is definitely the lightest, most ingenuity Kelly has ever sounded in her life. And I think part of that is because it's. She's playing with the inner turmoil of Clara's maturity. She, in a lot of ways, is still a young girl, but she is also still in the body of a woman. And so her voice kind of reflects that. You hear this really light, you know, youthful sound, and then she'll get to a certain higher register and it becomes more rich and operatic. And it's the. The. It's the fluctuating of Clara's maturation.

[B]

Yeah, well, you hear it a lot in, like, the first verse of the Beauty is her intro. That. These are very popular in Italy. That whole moment is very reserved for Kelly in general. Like, you don't hear her sing that quietly and that. What's the word I'm looking for? Just. It's very unique.

[A]

Yeah, it's very pingy forward.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And has, like, a youthful, little quiet meekness to it. But then she obviously builds and her voice just explodes at certain moments of the score. Even in the opening number, it does. But the beauty is she really. You hear that quiet, youthful, naive excitement in her.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's basically all I kind of wanted to get to as we get into that was the big casting controversy. But I think it helps because it leads us to the conversations of what you're looking for when you're casting these roles, because we then get the encore's production, which we'll talk a little bit more later. But that led to a very long conversation with certain people in my life and in your life about what it is exactly you want. Want in. In. While there's. While we. You always want interpretation. There were certain narratives from that encores staging that I felt very miffed by because it felt like a new misreading of what the show is about in. In favor of praising certain things about encores. Does that make sense?

[B]

Totally. Well, I, I think that, you know, Piazza Fall is one of those shows that falls into a rare category that we have now in that

[A]

it was

[B]

all rather immediately available in a lot of ways in that you had a cast recording while the show was still running and you could watch it live on TV while it was still running. I mean, for an evening. But it kind of did a similar thing to. Not in the exact same way, but kind of what the original Broadway production of into the woods has, where you have this amazing blueprint of a show that is, you know, that's a wonderfully written musical theater piece and that a lot of people have a lot of love for. But because we have such a fantastic touch point of the original production, it's hard to let your mind stray from that, you know, And I, as I said before, it's so weird to actually get to be on here and talk to you about something that I experienced live in the theater. Just because it. The. I will. I'll say that the cast album is. It's. It's an incredible cast album. It's. It really does manage to encapsulate what the show feels like to me. I remember when, even when it came out, listening to it and being like, wow, they really managed to capture the feeling of this show on an album like it. The only thing that's missing from the album is a bit of the humor, because it really is a very flat, funny musical in a lot of ways that is not prevalent on the cast album. But as far as the sound of the show, the cast album really does an incredible job at letting you know what it felt like to get swept over by that music in that original space.

[A]

1,000%. Yeah, you are right about the lack of humor on the album, but that doesn't make the album any less enjoyable. But I hear what you.

[B]

No, not at all. I'M just saying it's the only thing that's missing as far as the general feeling of the show.

[A]

Show. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, for example, in. What's Fabrizio's first song? It's Ilundo.

[B]

Ilundo. Something of IO.

[A]

There's. There's a. There's a joke at the very end before. Before it ends with Senor Narelli. Yes. He goes, all right, all right, Johnson. And. And it's this. It's a really fun little right before the. The button of it all. And it's kind of the first real. I won't say showstopper, but every time I've watched Piazza, whether the first time I saw it on Broadway, at Encores, or even, like, you watch the Boot or you go to the library, it's the first song where the audience really kind of hoots and hollers because it's like a real. It's like a real actual, like, Broadway finish in a way that the audience is grateful for.

[B]

Well, oh, well, I mean, we're jumping ahead a little bit, but should we talk about that song? Because that song introduced some. Or should we should. Let's. Let's. Let's go back, like, we'll get to it.

[A]

Let's go back into our analyzing of the musical statues and stories. I want to go back to this for a little bit.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

I mean, it's just a absolutely beautiful. A phenomenal opening number and tying into. Most people know it from the Tony performance, which is a beautiful Tony performance, I would argue.

[B]

This is Margaret Johnson reporting live from Forensic. When she's got her microphone, Vicky, Vicky Clark's mic goes out, and she gets handed this, like, black microphone, and it looks like she's a newscaster in the middle of this Italian courtyard. It's great. And then it, like, seamlessly disappears from her hand and the number continues, and it's fantastic. But I remember watching it live, and my end, I was with a group of friends, and all of us were like, this is Margaret Johnson, Rapport and Lav from Forensic.

[A]

It was before, you know, Instagram and Facebook was brand spanking new. Twitter was brand spanking new. So no one knew what was going on. And I remember, like, on the message boards, everyone was going, why would they do that? Thinking it was like a Bart share choice. Not. None of us comprehended at the time that, like, maybe there was an audio problem and they were fixing it in real time so she could, like, when she hands it off the mic, what was the point of that? And then Only I think, like a year or two later, it finally makes the rounds of. No, no, no. There was, There was an audio issue that got resolved in real time.

[B]

So then, like four years later, it happened again on the Tony Awards. To Titus Burgess during Sit down youn Rockin the Boat. And I will never forget shout out to Lauren, who also loves lighting the piazza. Hi, Lauren. She turned to me in that moment and said, this is Titus Johnson Report. Titus Burgess reporting live from Forensic. And so that has been a running joke between the two of us for decades.

[A]

That's unfortunate. It has literally been decades at this point. But you look at that Tony performance, and it's one of the few times I watched a Tony performance in the 21st century. And I go, oh, wow. Like, everyone nailed it in capturing this. Like, the cameras got it right. The, the, the director in the booth got it right of, like, where to edit, of where to cut, to crossfade. Because so many times you see Tony performances and you go, this just isn't filmed well. And that was one where I'm like, oh, it's like every angle is perfect.

[B]

Or something gets lost. Because the stage is. Because if it's like Radio City, the stage is so fucking huge that all of a sudden it just seems like this little. It seems rinky dink all of a sudden for some reason. Like, there's, there's just so many factors that go into a number coming off well on the Tonys. But yeah, it, it really, really, they. They did a fantastic job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Making that one work.

[A]

The only downside to it is that a lot of people now have Mandela affected what they thought the opening number was. And they'll, they'll see. They'll see it as it is now and they'll go, oh, I guess I saw it early in previews because it used to end with Clara's hat going off in the wind and Fabrizio catching

[B]

and they go, right, right, right.

[A]

I'm like, girl, that was just on the Tonys. It has always ended the way it ended.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. It ends well in the original. It ends with Margaret sitting on the bench and Clara laying with her head across Margaret's lap.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, there's also this great little detail. I think you can. I think you can see it on the Tonys. You definitely can see it in the bootleg and it's at the library. But there's. Kelly has this little moment of staging because the thing about that company is having worked on it for so long. And then of course, Bart is also. Also Just somebody who's very good at figuring out the relationships between characters with his actors. He maybe doesn't always communicate it well, but he's very good at finding it with them. But in that original staging, as the song's beginning, you know, Margaret's sitting on the bench reading, and Clara standing behind her. And Kelly gets, like, a little. Her. Clara gets a little distracted by the fuzz on Margaret's hat, and she starts playing with it until she hears a kingdom republic. And then she goes, oh, my God, was there a king? Was there a queen? It's such a good little moment of sort of foreshadowing that Clara does still have childlike mentality about her. You can see it. She's going like, I don't know if it's on the toys. It's definitely at the library.

[B]

And they do. And what they do really well with the original production in terms of setting up her mental state. Is that an appropriate way to say it? Her mental state? Okay, but they. But. But they set it up so nicely in this original production, doing things like you said, or just. If anything, what it comes off as in that first five minutes is her just having a very playful sense of humor. It never comes off as her not understanding something or understanding something on a different level. It more comes off as her being playful and silly with her mom.

[A]

Yeah, she's not really confused by much. It's. It's.

[B]

It. She.

[A]

Sometimes she will be confused by the nuances of what Margaret's trying to do in terms of avoiding Fabrizio. But every piece of information she gets doesn't confuse her. And I think that's also.

[B]

And she makes jokes. She makes jokes, too. I mean, there's the moment right after Statues and Stories where they're examining a plaque that's on the. On the ground, and Clara goes over to inspect it, and she screams. And Margaret goes, oh, my God.

[A]

What?

[B]

And she goes. It's still hot. And she's like. She.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Because somebody got burned at the spot.

[A]

And it's just one of those things where I feel like when you're playing Clara, you have to find moments of childlike joy, but also find moments where she can be comfortably a woman, because that's part of her journey of that inner conflict of We'll. We'll get to it. But. Yes.

[B]

Well, so this. The opening. This whole opening sets up the two of them visiting. And the. And it's interesting when you. When you notice where. How things end, just. It feels like. I know part of it is that Margaret is taking Clara there on vacation. But it's also immediately, you know, kind of like not jarring, but prevalent that the husband isn't there. And she says, this is my first time back since being here on a honeymoon with your father. And you're like, and why isn't he there with you? Everything okay? And you know, to revisit your honeymoon location with your 26 year old daughter is just a little question marky.

[A]

Well, yeah. The question becomes, why are you here? What is the impetus for going.

[B]

Yes. And that is something that is really nicely, slowly let out as the show goes on. The show has a couple of really good reveals that it takes its time getting to in its pacing that I greatly appreciate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's one of them is sort of what the situation of her relationship with her husband Roy is.

[A]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, do you want to. Do we want to keep going sort of like piece by piece or do you want to talk about Roy first?

[B]

No, let's go piece by. Let's go. In order of the show, I just wanted to note from the beginning that it's very prevalent that it's a mother and daughter in Italy. Americans visiting by themselves in, you know, in the early 50s, which feel with. With a woman from the south without her husband kind of immediately makes you go interesting.

[A]

Yeah. Especially not to, you know, stereotype. But in Italy, where they are known for women without male companions tend to get attention. That is, that is sort of. That is the culture usually. And so. And part of the reason I say that is because one of the main themes of the show is the culture clash of American versus Italian and how the ways in which they perceive activity differently and how they perceive emotions and mental capacities differently.

[B]

One of the most beautiful things I have to say about statues and stories, just from a song arrangement construction standpoint, is because both women are sopranos, they switch off on the high and low parts throughout the song. And it's really fun to listen to how each of them, how they blend because there's. Because it took me, I think, until a couple of months of listening to the recording to really be like, oh wait, they swapped. Now Vicky's on top. Oh wait, Kelly's on top here. The vocal arrangement and having the two of them share the duty of the top, the higher and lower harmony is really beautiful done.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's gorgeous. And the truth is that this is ultimately, I won't say it's a story about a mother daughter relationship in terms of like, that's the only focus, but I Think that the core, the, at its core is the mother daughter relationship. And the, the introduction of Fabrizio then becomes this ingredient that doesn't test but starts to explore what is at the root of this relationship. And what does this introduction to Fabrizio reveal about both women and their lives outside of Italy? Who they are to each other, who they are when they're not in Italy and what, what's waiting for them back home.

[B]

Yes, completely agree. And it's, I mean, when you think about like the pantheon of Broadway musicals, especially with mother daughter plots, this is, this is a plot that we haven't seen before. We've seen the gypsy version of the mother daughter story, the Gray Gardens version of the mother daughter story. There are others. Give me one. I'm not thinking of Maddie.

[A]

Another one I'm going to do a deep dive on later. And it's post Piazza, but next to normal mother and daughter story.

[B]

Next to normal mother and daughter, yeah. But it feels like a really interesting new mother daughter story that we haven't encountered in a musical before, which kind of makes it. Which, which adds to the excitement of the, of the plot, of being like. Of. Of not of, of realizing that this isn't going to be like an. Oh, I've already heard this story.

[A]

Yeah, no. Well, I think there are things about the details of Piazza as a, as a story that to an outsider can feel a little bit like a mad lib just in terms of, of the details of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's. And there are some things that I just, I don't think that the show will ever be able to overcome for its doubters in that respect. But I also think that in. If you are getting so tripped up by certain details, you are missing the emotion that's at the focal point of, of these things. But yeah, so Clara's, as Adam said in, in his debrief earlier in the episode, her hat flies away in Zapiazza, which is where she meets Fabrizio, who

[B]

catches it in one of the most magical moments I have ever seen on stage in my life. I don't. That hat should not have looked as cool as it did. It could have. It could have looked so Dr. Janky.

[A]

There are people who will tell you it looked janky, and then there are people like you and me who thinks it looks really beautiful. The one thing about maybe there were

[B]

some performances where it came off a little janky. Who knows? I mean, it's literally a hat on a fishy line that like gets, gets, you know, yanked off and flown on a track up, you know, past the proscenium and back in.

[A]

It's. It's. And there's.

[B]

There's always going to be times where

[A]

Kelly has to go off stage for five seconds to get to switch out the hat. The. Don't wander too far. I won't. I'm back on in totally the same hat. I swear. It's, it's, it's. It's fine. Like, what else is she gonna do? But the next song is the Beauty Is, which is not really Clara's I Want song so much as Clara's new awareness song. By meeting Fabrizio, being in this new environment, she is starting to get a sense of the world beyond what she knew and who she might be in it. Without using such large words, she's just. She. Clara is an observer. That's something that Statues and Stories shows you the way that she sits down and starts drawing people while her mother is. Is telling her facts about the city. And you also. And what, again, has a great bit of comedic staging. It's at a museum, right. And they're there because Margaret thinks that Clara will find the whole thing interesting in a very academic kind of way.

[B]

Well, and Clara has a sketch pad. She loves to draw, so it's very much education.

[A]

But Bart Sher has a moment where Clara's looking at the torso of a nude male stand and she looks at.

[B]

Well, which we have to say this is the second completely naked statue we've seen in the show. In the opening number, there's a statue in the middle of the piazza, which Clara acknowledges and says that's a completely naked statue.

[A]

But we only see it from the behind. She sees the whole of it.

[B]

We just get the whole Matt, really.

[A]

She's a sexy show. She goes through all of it. That's a completely naked stat. I love the way that. I love the way that Kelly says that's a completely naked statue on the Tonys. And the way she, like, walks back over to see it again. She does like a. Like a little childish waddle. She goes, that's a completely naked statue. Waddle, waddle, waddle. It's so good. It's. Bitch is funny when she wants to be.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm sorry. Oh, and we should say briefly, quickly, before going back into the Beauty Is so. So Clara and Fabrizio interact, and it is immediately clear to Margaret that they are into each other. And Margaret is so afraid of Clara having any sort of romance in her life, I think because she just doesn't want to see her get her heart broken based on everything that talked about and is very quick to try to get Clara away from him and spends a lot of act one just trying to get her in other places. You know, she tells Fabrizio they have an appointment, and Fabrizio somehow manages to get out of them where they're going to be later.

[A]

Well, yes, Margaret. Margaret realizes that Fabrizio, because he says, oh, I have a friend who works at the Grand Hotel where you are staying at. And Margaret realizes later on and spills to Fabrizio's father, like I imagine your son has a spy at the hotel who's telling him what our plans are every day because we keep running into him. And I don't. And I don't think it's an accident. And she's right. She's very correct. Well, because the other thing is you eventually learn much later, Clara has no knowledge of her condition. She's been kept sort of blissfully unaware. And it seems that she has no memory of the accident that caused her mental illness. Mental state.

[B]

Yeah, that trauma is never addressed from her standpoint. Yes, we see her have. We see her have mental frustration moments, but there's no addressing what might have caused it.

[A]

Yes. And, and but Clara's not unaware that things have gone wrong in the past. She tends to not dwell on it too much unless something sort of triggers it. But we learn from Margaret through her narration that Clara has had experiences with boys in the past, and it always kind of goes the same way. They. They get bl by how beautiful she is. And when they first meet her, they view her as sort of like a quirky girl. Like, in their mind, she's a 1950s manic pixie dream girl. Oh, my God. Like she said, she says crazy things that are on her mind. Oh, my God.

[B]

She.

[A]

She does a little sketch pad. She has no sense of personal boundaries. What a quirky little manic pixie dream girl. And Margaret's like, eventually I have to tell them what the deal is, and they quietly go off into the night. And I try not to let Clara know. And so with Fabrizio, in some ways, it's a little bit of the same. I think part of her also can tell that this one is a little bit different. And so rather than get into the mess of it all, she's trying to stop it before anything happens. And she doesn't want to tell Clara, you know, you can't see that boy once I tell him that something's wrong with you. Because, darling, what I never told you is that something is wrong with you. He's going to run for the hills.

[B]

Well, Clara's condition, I don't know if whatever we're calling Clara's state that she's in, I think she does still have. I think she is still developing. It's just a much slower rate. But we're starting to get to a point where she is feeling a level of independence and does not want to be looked over and controlled in the way that she has been all of these years. Going to Italy ignites something in her. And meeting Fabrizio ignites something in her that is a frame that she really craves. And, and, and Margaret starts to see this and, and is, and it's one of the reasons that she so aggressively pushes Fabrizio back. Back. Because she can just see that Clara is like itching to get that. That thing.

[A]

Yeah. But the thing is that there is how Margaret views Clara's condition at the start of the show based off what she's been told when Clara was 12. And, and I. It's unclear. I don't know in the novel, in the novella what age Clara was when the accident with the Shetland pony occurred.

[B]

10 in. She was 10.

[A]

So. Because they've, they've now changed it in the musical to 12. On the album it's 12. In the library, I believe she says, I think at the Library she says 10. But on the Lincoln Center Live recording it's 12. And I think now it's official, actually 12, which is a very different age from 10. Yeah, now it's 12, but I think it started with that it's a very different age. But the thing that I, the thing that always kind of creeps people out is, well, she's mentally 12. And it's a wrong that they don't tell Fabrizio and his family what's going on with her. And B, you know, it's creepy.

[B]

She's.

[A]

She's a kid really. And all these other things and what the show is exploring without saying it outright, because ultimately this is the beginning of a new chapter for Clara is it is telling us that there is a stigma on the handicap that everyone has, even if they don't want to admit it. And people thinking subconsciously that in a lot of ways Clara is not entitled to a grown up life because people think she can't handle it. Do you watch the Pit, Adam?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

But you're aware of her.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's a character in it played by Bryan Cranston's daughter, who is a doctor, I think she's like a third year resident or something. And you learn she's like, lightly on the spectrum. And her sister is more so. And her sister's living in an assisted care facility. And in season two, her sister comes in the hospital, into the ER with stomach pain, and eventually she discovers that her sister has a uti. And she's like, oh, well, you know, that can happen if you're holding in your pee too long, like, you got to tell the nurse. And her sister's like, no, I'm probably getting it from having sex. And she's like, you. You're not having sex? And she's like, yeah, I have a boyfriend. I'm having sex, I'm having a lot of sex. And she gets very mad. She's like, who's this guy who's taking advantage of you? She's like, he asked me to be his girlfriend and then I asked him to have sex. And. And it hurt. And this character is like so thrown and it. And I love the storyline because it's like, yeah, just be. Just because she's on the spectrum doesn't mean she's unaware of what sex is or what. That she might want it or know how to do it. And I want to remind people, people of the era in which Piaza takes place, which is 1953, think about where mental health analysis was at that point. And so when Margaret is told in no, 1939 or whatever, that Clara will never mentally develop past the age of 12, the doctors are not lying to her. They. They think what they're telling her is true. That's 1939 doctors were talking about. It's entirely. If this incident were to occur now, with all the advancements we'd have, it's entirely possible that doctors would have told her, you know, listen, her mental state is going to develop a lot slower. She will mature, but you have to help her. Like, you have to think about all the things that we learn now. Like, now we learn if you sprain your ankle, you actually kind of need to walk on it a bit. Like in order to get the muscle back. You used to be told, don't you fucking walk on that ankle. That is the last thing you want to do. And, and what Margaret is learning in real time after, after 14 years of what she thought was supporting and helping Clara, she's realizing in Italy, in real time, all these years, I thought I was helping my daughter. I think I've actually been stunting her and I And she's capable far more than myself or Roy ever learned. There's the joke. She's like. She speaks Italian now. Like, Clara has this immediate gift for the Italian. Like, Clara is becoming more fluent in Italian in a week than Margaret ever has in entire life, which is, again, this wonderful insight of, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, she is capable of far more if you let her. And so Margaret kind of realizes, why shouldn't my daughter have this life? And you can argue the morality of what she does with the nar. With the Nakarellis. I think that the show doesn't want you to not think about it. It's not meant to be. She did it in the name of love, and that's all that matters.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Because we'll get to that plot point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When we get to the end. But it certainly. It's not given in a. In and this is. Okay. Kind of way. You. You. That's why I said the ending of this play is very gray because there's a lot of information where you're like, okay. I mean, I hope it all works. But.

[A]

But I only say this because when people always come back to, she has the mind of a child. She has the mind of a child. I go, no, no, no, no, no. That's what the doctors told them circa 1939. And what the show is presenting with us and Margaret is learning in real time is that might not totally be the case. Case. And I need to give her the chance to. To mature if that's something she's able to do. And she's learning that her daughter actually can. That's the beauty of that storyline. So I was. I. I want that on Main, and I want people to always remember that. And when people come at you with this show about that, ask them, would you trust a doctor in 1939 about your mental state? Think of. Doctors were not telling pregnant women to stop smoking and stop drinking until, like, 1960.

[B]

The number of women that got sent to mental institutions because they were, like, maybe just, like, bipolar or, you know, and hadn't found the proper medication balance. Like, the number. There are so many people who got so fucked over by the medical system, women especially, because they just thought they were, quote, unquote, crazy when in fact, they. Yeah, they. Oh, yeah, they were in hysterics. And so it's. Yeah, it's. It's.

[A]

What's the thing with the. With the ice pick in your eye, but that they did, too. Your brain.

[B]

Oh, a lobotomy.

[A]

Yeah, the. The number of lobotomies we used to do the number of lobotomies.

[B]

Yes, yes. For real. That's a. That's a real thing. I. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if. If Clara had not found the ending for herself that down the line, you know, and under the wrong care such, she could have ended up getting lobotomized in an effort to, quote, unquote, help her.

[A]

Well, and that's the thing that. I think it's. In the musical Roy acknowledges in his. In his phone calls with Margaret about possibly sending her to.

[B]

To a.

[A]

To a facility. In the novella, he talks about it, which ultimately, that's the thing that propels Margaret to throw Clara down the aisle of like, no, no, no, no, we're not sending her away. You learn in the. No. That Margaret had unsuccessfully tried to put Clara in a more mature environment as a kid. That did not go over very well. But ultimately not because of anything Clara did, but because people learned about Clara's mental state and. And then refused her access. Like, did. She tried to put her into a regular high school and, and like, the first week was great. Clara got along with everybody really well. And then like, somebody in the administration system got a hold of Clara's real file and learned what.

[B]

What.

[A]

What was going on to Clara and they kicked her out. But it. It's important to acknowledge it's not because, like, necessarily Clara was being disruptive. It was the stigma on her and no one allowing her the chance to grow. So that's, again, just things we want to always talk about and another reason why Margaret is kind of more desperate in this new environment. Environment where she's seeing people her age and Clara's age embrace her. And part of that is just a total cultural difference and a language barrier.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the beauty is. No, but.

[A]

So the beauty is. What I love about the beauty is, is Gettle got dinged a lot for his lyrics on this when the show opened. And yes, they are very poetic and like, sometimes they can be a little heady. Not. I wouldn't say heady. Like, sometimes it's just sort of. Of you're like, what does that line mean? It's.

[B]

It's like there are a lot of thought fragments.

[A]

Yes, it. It definitely feels a little bit like poetry you wrote down while you smoked a blunt with some friends. But I also think in that. In that cloudiness can sometimes be clarity. And I, I. That's how I always kind of describe the lyrics to Clara, is that there's always a little bit of cloudiness that Then reveals a piece of clarity and the beauty is. Might actually be the most clear her lyrics ever are. I think they're actually more clear than the lyrics in the title song. But, like, there's an emotional clarity to lighting the piazza. But I think that there's more of an intellectual clarity to beauty is her.

[B]

Her songs do often give the impression of her trying to explain something to someone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And I. And I guess I agree with you. Yeah. It's the. Oh, but you were going to say at the top of the number, she. She. She discovered her second nickname piece of staging.

[A]

We do. Yeah. Sorry, we got distracted. Us. Distracted. Distracted. In. To. To express Clara's sexual curiosity. She's in this museum, this art museum with Margaret. And Margaret walks off, and Clara sees a statue, a male. A male naked form. And she walks up to it and just With a dead. With a Kelly o' Hara dead face ever so, you know, matter of factly puts her hand on his genitals.

[B]

Junk.

[A]

Yep, on his junk. And it always gets a huge laugh because it's not out of perversity, whatever that means to you. It is out of genuine communication. Curiosity.

[B]

Yeah. It's like. It's. It's. It's literally no different than like. Than a little kid at, like a department store touching a mannequin.

[A]

Yeah. And her first thought isn't that felt Nas. I want to rat it. Her first thought was, well, these are very popular here.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's. It's the land of naked marble boys.

[A]

Yep. And. And she's coming from a country that has. That is notoriously pure puritanical. But Also, think about 1953. Think about what the pop culture is in America. Oh, my TV just turned on the pop culture in America in the 1950s, we have the Hayes Code. In Hollywood, there's still a bit of a puritanical code of conduct on Broadway tv. If you're watching a TV show, married couples are in separate beds. Sex is not something that's discussed. Sex is something that is kept, you know, deep under the covers. And. And there's no. No openness in American culture. Everything is very reserved of, like, we. We went through a horrible war, as did the rest of the world, but we don't talk about it. You know, the soldiers that came back, they did it for their country and their heroes, and they didn't have any problems. It's fine. Yeah. Like, think about Julianne Moore in the Hours.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Who would. Who's a housewife at the exact same time of this story taking place and the. All the things she wants to express that she can't because no one around her thinks that that's what you do. And Clara is realizing more immediately than her mother is, oh, here people are open, people are honest and there's a thing about us that they are willing to display. And I'm not sure what that thing is just yet. And ultimately that thing is sexuality and sensuality. And again, it's proves that she is more intuitive and she's more mature then we are led on to believe. Or rather she's capable of being intuitive and maturity. But she needs the chance to get there. And this is the seed being planted for me.

[B]

One of my favorite lyrics in that song, just to show how much she's really loving it there and feeling an acclimation and a connection to the country, she sings I've hardly met a single soul but I am not alone. I feel known where just she feels that she. You can. She feels a different connection here than she has anywhere else. It's. It's bringing out that independence in her that she. That she hasn't had an opportunity to explore.

[A]

It's that weird thing of once you feel like you're part of a community, you can feel more competent and independent. You know what I mean?

[B]

100%.

[A]

Think about it. Of. You hear all the stories about people in the queer community. Once they found their tribe, they were able to come into their own own. And it's the, it's ultimately the difference between being part of a community and being part of a mob. When you're part of a mob, you're just one piece of a blob. And when you're part of a community, you're an individual amongst other individuals, all coexisting. And Clara for the first time gets the idea that possibly she could be a person because she feels like she's coexisting for the first time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, I have to. We have to. We also have to mention Katherine Zuber's beautiful costumes, which we haven't mentioned yet, but. Oh my God, this is.

[A]

I think this is going to be an OG Broadway breakdown deep dive because this is not going to be an under two hour episode. It's just not. It's just not going to be. I have too. We both have too much to say. I could do a whole deep dive on Clara's costumes and her evolution in this production.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

[A]

But I wanted. Let's put a pin in that because I actually want to talk about with the legacy The Tonys. Because I would argue you light in the Piaza is the best example in the 21st century of the Tony Awards effect. When people say that the Tony Awards maybe don't necessarily matter, I think Piaz is actually the greatest example of them mattering of what it did to its popularity and what it did to its reputation.

[B]

It managed to get that show to sell through over a year later.

[A]

Over a year. Over a year. But we're going to come back to it. We're going to come back to it because it's, it's, there's a narrative about that year's Tonys that I, that I always try to tell people who weren't really paying attention the year that it happened, who might be younger than we are and weren't really alive or cognizant of what that Tony's year was, or people who just like, weren't really interested in Broadway yet at the time. And you know, people look back and they go, how could Two Gentlemen of Verona beat Follies? And you hear from people, they're like, well, at the time that was a real feel good hit. And Follies was this, you know, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? Done by Fellini with songs and no one knew what do to make of it. And, and so we'll, we'll talk about that with the Tonys.

[B]

But anyway, yeah, we'll, we'll get to, we'll get to Legacy. Okay. Yes.

[A]

There's also the. I also love the lyric. I think if I had a child, I would take such care of her, then I wouldn't feel like one. Which is, which also shows she's aware that she's being coddled and, and, and kind of being gaslit is a harsh term for what Margaret's doing to her. But she's aware that Margaret's not always telling her the full truth and, and is, and is dodging things. Like when she says when Margaret's like, we can't always do what we want, Clara. And Clara's like, well, we seem to always do what you want. And, and Margaret, and Margaret doesn't have an answer for her. She goes, you're being rude. And this is interesting.

[B]

I love when Clara gets sassy. It's some of my favorite bits of the show, which is.

[A]

But it's something that Ben Bramley wrote in his review of like. He found that as a writing flaw of her being, of her mental state being inconsistent. Where I go, girl, do you not understand what you're doing with her character?

[B]

It's showing that her. That she's growing. She's. She's in that, like, teenage phase of like, leave me the fuck alone. I want to do my own thing.

[A]

Yeah. Of learning awareness of your words and your actions matter. Is this the moment where I talk about my beef with Ben Brantley and how people look at him with rose colored glasses now? Because Jesse Green turned out to suck a bit as the Times critic, but we forget how often that Brantley sucked. Let's.

[B]

Let's cover it during Legacy.

[A]

Okay, let's talk about during Legacy. But I'll just say right now, people who are like, oh, I missed the days of Ben Brantley when Ben Bradley got it. It right. He got it so very fucking right. But I want to remind everyone the Times in which he fucking shat the bed as a critic.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[A]

And this was one of them. A review that he was. Didn't even. Of a show he didn't even pan. It was a mixed review, but when you look at the things he was mixed on, I was like, how dumb can you be at 15? I knew what they were doing. Like, what? You're the Times critic, you idiot. Anyway, if it was directed by a British person, he would have been okay with it.

[B]

Yes, Truly, truly, truly.

[A]

Every time he didn't like an American show that then got a British production, he was like, the Brits have figured it out. I'm like, no, you're just an Anglophile. But so Fabrizio is song hard to explain because it's all in Italian.

[B]

Well, so, okay, so here I'm So. Yes, I'm excited to talk about this.

[A]

So.

[B]

So Fabrizio Pario runs into, quote, unquote, runs into. Stalks Margaret and Clara and finds them at the museum. Shortly after the beauty is. And Margaret hustles Clara off again. And, you know, she says, well, you know, we'll see you later. And because she. Because she does agree to meet. They do agree to meet him in the afternoon in the piazza. Margaret's like, fine, fine, fine. You can have a meeting and. And then that's it. So this is his first moment to express his feelings, and it's essentially his I want song. It is completely in Italian. The show is. There are no subtitles, there are no supertitles. You are, as an audience member, meant to sit and experience it. And from the. And I did learn this from the Adam Gettle interview, which I found fascinating. The lyrics were written for you to understand them without understanding Italian by virtue of getting something out of the vowels at the end of the Phrases, the vowels were put there and constructed in order to evoke a feeling, to understand the point of the song without having to get it fully translated. He did it with Judy Blue Blazer, also Judy Blazer. Stan. Leave me some Judy Blazer. Who knew Judy Blazer was a like, really? Who knew? I didn't know Judy Blazer was fluent in Italian and would do Italian translations, but he seems responsible. Yes, but this first solo of his is effectively an Italian aria, but with, like, a bit of a sort of like, pop feel to it. Maybe that's just the Morrison aspect of it, but it does. It manages to feel contemporary and not like an aria in that way. Like, it does still feel like a musical theater song. But this song takes us from wherever. He starts off singing in the street or the museum. It travels him to his father's tie shop where he sits down with his dad. And again, the scene is completely in Italian. He sits and talks to his father and his brother, his older brother Giuseppe, who's a total ladies man. And he. Oh, there's a running joke in the show that because Clara and her mother and Margaret's last name is Johnson, they think, oh, related to Van Johnson, the movie star. And so that joke comes again here. But he is 20 years old and he is infatuated in love and just won't shut up about it. And so the song becomes repetitive as a joke to. To the point where, as Matt has already said, the father cuts him off and is like, all right, all right, I get it. Van Johnson, shut up. Let's get you.

[A]

Yeah. Cause he's like, I want to look like Van Johnson now. I want to. Because I think part of the lyrics, when you translate them into English, part, like in the bridge area, it's basically how he's like, but I'm not enough of a man for you. Like, I need to look at him.

[B]

I'm just a little boy. She is a woman and I'm just a little boy. I have to become more of a man for her. So they out. They outfit him with a suit jacket and a tie so that he can look more mature when he goes to meet the two of them.

[A]

Also, you, my little orchestration friend. Do you know? Do you know? Or you could even ask Bruce in at the very end, when we get to the final. The Clara. Clara. I think it's like a triangle or something that's getting wrong. Do you know what that is?

[B]

It's just a triangle getting dinner belled.

[A]

But it's so. It's so awesome because they also. I realized way later it's also in Evita. In the original orchestration. Broadway orchestration for Evita and Eva and Magaldi, which the very first I want to be a part of. B A Buenos Aires bake apple. And then the family joins her. There's a little triangle that comes on the top of. She wants to. Part of.

[B]

Oh, interesting. I'll have to go back and listen.

[A]

It's very. It's short and it's light. But I remember in college being like, what the fuck is that? What is going on there? And I asked my music professor and he's like, I don't know what the fuck you're hearing. And it was like the first, like, is the dress blue or gold situation? It's like, no, there's something in there. And I think it's a triangle on the.

[B]

She wants to be revisiting that.

[A]

Yeah, but so that's.

[B]

I'll be revisiting that in five hours once we finish recording this podcast.

[A]

Absolutely. But what I love about this aria is, as you said, you know, without even knowing Italian, you understand the feeling of it. And part of the reason why we sit in all of this Italian without the subtitles is to put the audience in the same perspective of these characters. Characters of.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You sometimes have to just intuit what they're saying based off of the energy, based off of the expression. You. If you, you need to have some sort of empathy and awareness. Even if you can't understand the words, if you can only understand what somebody means by the words, you are closing. There's a part of you that you are closing off to other people and the world, which is ultimately what Fabrizio and Clara's connection kind of reveals to us. Right. Of there are so many words that they don't know what the other one is saying and they are learning more of the other one's language to cross that, that bridge. But there are still barriers as we come to learn. But you listen to that aria and you ultimately know through the music what the emotion is. It's pure hearted and, and it, and it sounds so genuine. It's, it's. It doesn't sound like a schoolboy crush.

[B]

It's. Well, and I mean, as, as all of this show is, it's incredibly sincere. Like, it's, it, it really. There's, there's nothing chic. I mean, there's a bit of a joke at the end, but it only comes out of his youthful exuberance. It doesn't, it doesn't do anything to, like, undermine the material. It's all very much done to levitate it, really.

[A]

Yeah. The humor in Piaza is done to cut up the sugar, not to undercut the sugar. You know, it's to give us a brief break. But it never undersells the romance, ever.

[B]

It's. I mean, it reminds me of a James Lapine book. Not in the same way, because James Lapine's books are much more cynical, but it does have similar beats of, like, very dry, specific punchlines which are meant to cut through either a tense moment or a too sappy moment. Like, there's always a little bit of sapphire, something to just cut through the treacle.

[A]

Yeah. The only time I feel like Lapine kind of failed at directing his own writing was passion. Because you watch that original production and, you know, emotional as everybody is and sweeping as it is, he talks about how they tried to cut out all the laughs from the audience. And I actually think that where Piazza gets it right is for something like passion, you do need laughs. Sometimes audiences need a moment to relax. And you say, see, I never thought I'd say this, but, like, you see where Judy Kun and Michael Cerverus and Rebecca Luker kind of figure out that energy in a way that Lapine never really was able to figure out with his original trio. Because K's Fosa is a. In a way that is hilarious. I talk about it all the time. The way when she. And she eventually does the classic stage production, you listen to that recording with her and just the give to others. Like, she's. So why would I do that? It's so great. And when Georgio comes back or she's like, I did that. It was stupid. And when it was awful, when Giorgio comes back from fucking Clara, another Clara for, like, two weeks straight, and she comes back and she was like, how was my competition? It was so. It's so cunty in a way that no Don is like, and how is my competition? Love me or I shall die? I do think you needed that original production for other productions to look on and go, okay, now I see where we need to kind of go with this. But credit to the original team of Piazza, they understood, understood that in order for an audience to be able to withstand so much emotion all the time, every now and then, you needed someone again, not to undercut the emotion, but just to give us a quick break to. To cut the cocaine with a little bit of baking soda and just so we could have a breather. Now we get to the next moment, which I love. Very much. Which is Passeggiata.

[B]

Oh, passeata. Well, actually, wait.

[A]

So, wait, sorry. The. The moment where Margaret tells Clara that she and Fabrizio actually can now meet is. It's not at the museum. It's the next scene, because after El Mondo, we then. And. And they agree to help him be Van Johnson. And Michael Baress does a little bit of dance. I get pregnant. We then go to a church where.

[B]

Oh, that's right. It's in the church.

[A]

The Duomo. Yes, and the Duomo. And Clara does her very first ollie ollie oxenfree. And that's where Fabricio shows up with his sort of. Because there's, like, another adult in the room and because Margaret's sort of like, she. Oh.

[B]

Also. Oh, God damn it.

[A]

Another great moment. Sorry. Fabrizio finds Clara sort of alone for Margaret for a second and gives her a little bouquet, like, secretly like, clara, Clara, this is for you. And Kelly o' Hara goes, how sweet. And immediately goes, mother, aren't these beautiful? And you see Matt Morrison go, no, don't. Oh, God damn it. And it's like, he's like, don't tell me. And Kelly o' Hara is just like, doesn't see the issue. She goes, how beautiful. Mother, aren't these great? It's so fucking funny. I love it. And then at the end of the scene when they agree they'll meet them on the. On the piazza and they're walking away and. And a priest shows up looking very imposing. And Clara has a minor freak out. She goes, ah. And marker goes, it's okay, honey. He works here. Yeah, that's right. So good. It's so good. It's such a great show. I love it. I love it it so much. No notes, but yes, we get to. Oh, we also get our first real brief moment of Franca and Giuseppe. Have you had an enjoyable afternoon? And the. Right, because she's trying to teach Fabrizio some more. Some more English. Because we learned that Franca, of the family, only Senor Nacarelli is fully fluent in English. Franca is the next fluent. Fabrizio speaks broken English. Giuseppe speaks no English. Signora Nacarelli, we learn, speaks out absolutely no English. You see Fabrizio with, like, an English translation book, and Franca giving him some phrases to say, and she's telling him, no, no. Like, there's a musicality to it. Have you had an enjoyable afternoon? What a beautiful blouse.

[B]

And I know we're gonna. We'll get to more about her when we get to her joy youy feel song, because I'm not passing that song up, but I have to gotta shout out Sarah Yardi Berry, who plays Franka in the original, original Broadway production. Very Sophia Loren esque. She's made to look like a brunette bombshell and is just so, so. Her portrayal of the role is so fantastic. But also, this was the second time I'd ever seen her on stage. This is my sidebar here. The first time I'd ever seen her was the season before as Nicola in Taboo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which was. I have to tell you, like, I was so blown away by her range as a performer because I, I'm. I'm. I'm not an apologist, but I do love Taboo, I think. I thought Taboo was a lot of fun. A big mess, but a lot of fun. Not as big a fan of as Nicole. As Nicole Byer.

[A]

There, there was merit to it, but it wasn't successful.

[B]

Yes, but, But Sarah Yuri Berry had. Has a crazy belt at the top of that show. She has a song called Safe in the City that she. I mean, granted, she's using a mix, but it comes off as a belt and it is insane. And then to hear her come into this show and give you full operatic Italian voice, this just beautiful, rich sound, I was like, I had no idea that you had all of this in you. I'm amazed. And just like sex, pot, horse. Gorgeous woman.

[A]

Looking like the second coming of Sophia Loren.

[B]

Just.

[A]

God, she looks hot in that show.

[B]

Yeah. Incredibly gorgeous, but just is very charming and a little intimidating, which we'll get to a little bit more in a minute. But this is our first real introduction to her character. And I love Franke. I think she's fantastic.

[A]

But like everyone in the show, she has her. Her stuff because we see that she and Giuseppe, while they're married, there is. There is trouble there. Giuseppe clearly was in. Was unfaithful to her. And while they are still married, it is not good. And she. And he is trying to get back in her good graces. He's not being honest, he's just trying to be charming. And she's not buying it.

[B]

He's one of those husbands that's always apologizing and being like, it won't happen again. And she's like, yeah, okay.

[A]

He's not even saying, like, it won't happen again. He's basically like, but you still love me. I still love you, Bab. And she's sort of like, yeah. She's like, fuck this.

[B]

You can tell she's been withholding sex for like months at a time from this 1000%.

[A]

But this leads to La Passajata, where all it is is just Fabrizio and Clara go on a walk. They just go on a walk and, and. And have little moments with each other. And you learn in the scene before with Franka, he's trying to give a phrase to Clara, but he doesn't know how to say it. So he keeps saying, you're milk. And Franka's like, enough about the milk. No, do not say anything about milk. Don't you. Don't you dare say that. He's like, r. Her milk. Her milk. And she's like, stop it, don't do it. And he first tries to say to Clara, oh, you. What a beautiful frog. And. Oh, and your milk. And she's like, what? My what? Well, no. So before they even get to the song, he first tries to say, your milk. And Kelly looks like she was just assaulted. She's like, pardon my what?

[B]

Excuse me.

[A]

And you. And. And he can tell that he's up, but he doesn't know why or how. And then they get back to the song and in the bridge, he goes back to the milk and it's a great moment. He's like, your milk. Your milk is. And she's like, my milk is what? What milk?

[B]

Where. Where's the milk?

[A]

Where's the milk? And goes, no, no, no, it's like. It's not milk. It's like milk. Oh, like snow. No, no, no, not so. I know snow. And he. And he touches her arm and then like, it's so sensual because in both, like, he's trying to explain what he means. But also, again, they have this on fire chemistry and like the lightest attention touches just leads to this eruption in both of them.

[B]

And this was helped so much. I mean, I have to say that having seen, you know, since then, Kelli o' Hara and a lot of things with. With different leading men and when she has chemistry with, with. With her love interest, it really is electric. She had fantastic chemistry with Matt Morrison immediately following with Harry Connick Jr. Like, just when. When she has somebody who can ignite that in her, like you really, really do feel the chemistry of like legendary

[A]

chemistry with, with Harry Connick Jr. And then amazing like this. Kelly, Kelly had a few. Yeah, Kelly had a few narratives going for her up until I would say, like, nice work if you can get it. And then that was sort of an anomaly. And then it kind of continued after that, which was with going from Piazza to Pajama Game Into South Pacific, and then I think South Pacific into Bells are Ringing. Be There became a narrative of never underestimate Kelly o'. Hara. She's going to get announced for something that you don't see her in, and then she's going to prove. Prove you wrong. And the other narrative was Kelly o' Hara has chemistry with her leading men. And nice work if you can get. It was sort of like the one blip where that was kind of not really the case. She and Matthew Broderick had fine chemistry, but it wasn't the sexual heat you're used to.

[B]

They were. They were cute together, but there wasn't the same electricity as the. As her. The men before that. Yes. Back to your point. The, the. The. That moment.

[A]

The.

[B]

The. This. The skin moment.

[A]

The. Her.

[B]

Her milk is that you.

[A]

The.

[B]

The. The. The wonderful electricity between them in that moment is you're like, well, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it's. It's foreshadows her skin. It foreshadows the. Say it somehow. Which we gotta start, you know, plowing to in a second. But yes, it says yes. But it's this great release of. Finally the connection happens because he's not quite sure what the word is. And there is that sexual tension of he's touching her in the very lightest of spots, but. And she realizes what he means. I get part of it is they have this connection. And she goes, oh, my skin. He goes, yes, your skin is like milk. And she laughs because it's a sweet thing to say, but she's like, also like, we did it. We did it, Joe. And then they go right back into the show. We did it, Joe. We also go right back into the conversation. There's also, like, the way that it's. I mean, it's already in the text. The way that Lucas writes their interactions with each other for the first half of the show of this incredible sexual tension. But also just how enamored with her Fabrizio is. Because when they meet up in the square before passeggiata, I forgot about this interaction. But Kelly. So Clara looks at all, reads it. She goes, oh, you cut yourself shaving? He goes, oh, yes. And little beat. Do you like to shave? It's like it's, It's.

[B]

She.

[A]

It's not small talk. She's like, you. You shave a lot, don't you? Like, you're. Are you a man? And then. But then she kind of goes back into, like a little bit of childishness where she remembers she has a scar. And she's like, oh, look, the back of my neck, I have a scar. And he just starts looking at her hair. He's like, oh, my God, your hair is amazing. He's like, I just want to fucking slick your hair. And she's like, no, not that. My scar. And it's so. It's this beautiful, like, back and forth of where she's two steps forward, one step back, and how all he wants is just to be next to her all the time. And just how infatuated it is with every iota of her being.

[B]

Well, and that moment combined with. So this is also the scene where we first. Where Margaret and singer Nacarelli first have a chance to sort of talk to each other. And. And this is the beginning of Margaret trying to drop the bomb about Clara and we're starting to get Easter eggs. That there's really something not, not, not, quote, unquote, normal about her, where we

[A]

have Clara not the familiar with her.

[B]

Not the familiar. And we have. But Margaret's like, you know, there's something you have to know about Clara. I don't know how to put it. And it gets interrupted. But this happens several times with her where she's like, but you don't understand. There's something I have to tell you about Clara, because Clara's not like other girls. And then it gets interrupted. But the foreshadowing of the scar on the back of Clara's on her neck at the base of her head is also a bit of a foreshadowing of the information we're gonna get. Not too long from now, actually, the end of the.

[A]

Yeah. Before the act is over for sure. And that moves into Divinity Day.

[B]

Introduction to the Family. Right.

[A]

No, Divinity Day is next, isn't it? No, no, you're right. It is the family. It is the family.

[B]

So we can. And we can sort of move through this. So they. So Clara and Margaret are invited to the Nacarelli's home, where we meet everybody in one room. We meet Signora Nacarelli, who we haven't met yet, who does not speak a lick of English. And it's sort of a charming scene of, like, Margaret trying to be gracious about being invited into the home while also trying to get the fuck out of there as quickly as possible. And while, you know, she is talking with the parents. What's her name? Oh, my God. Franka is like, you know, oh, well, you know, why don't we have some girl talk? And. And she takes Clara off into a side room and trauma dumps on her. Trauma dumps on Clara with this song that the first time I saw it kind of blew me away. I was like, I can't believe I just heard that song in a musical. It really is a song that sounds like no other song I've ever heard in a musical. The tone of it is very dark and I've heard songs of warning in a musical before. The last word of this song is literally Beware. But there is something about this song that is, if it weren't being sung by this Sophia Loren type gorgeous woman, it's the type of song that would normally be sung by some buttoned up Victorian matron who's like, I had a love once and this is what happened to me. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Starts her facing great expectations. The one who goes crazy in her wedding dress. Yeah.

[B]

Yes, it is very much a Miss Havisham type of song. But the fact that it's coming from this, for all intents and purposes, youthful woman, desirable woman, it's of her just saying, I know you're in love right now, but you just have to know that come down the line, he's going to meet someone prettier and younger and you're just going to fall into the background and no longer feel as special as you do now. So just beware, girl. And what makes it worse is like,

[A]

you will still love him. And it's this question and Clara doesn't really know what to do with it. It's sort of beyond her comprehension.

[B]

And. Yes. And so the song ends with Franka singing Beware. And Clara says thank you and leaves.

[A]

But it does affect her because she sort of runs back into the next room because she needs Fabrizio as this sort of touchstone for her. She needs a moment to breathe and be reassured.

[B]

Well, and it's one of Margaret's aside moments when she looks at the audience and she says, I know something weird happened in that room. Something happened. Something happened that I wasn't a part of. And Clara came out a different person. Like she. She learned something that was. I don't know, I love how I keep having a southern accent all of a sudden. She learned something behind those doors that affected her thought process and in a dark way.

[A]

Yeah. But then on top of that, she says, usually when that happens, I am the one she goes to. And she realizes she went to Fabrizio's this time.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So not only was I not there to, like, help her, you know, when something happened to her to help her when she came back from the thing that happened, I wasn't who she went to. And so this is something she can't. She thinks of it as help. One might even think of it as control, which is, again, the thing that Margaret is. Re. Is contemplating in real time alone in this foreign country of. Not only is she having to deal with. Spin all these plates with no help from anyone, but also she's now, like, grappling. Grappling with 14 years of what she thought she was doing and realizing maybe that isn't what I was doing and maybe I need to start doing something different. Like, it's. Again, she has to. She's going through so much.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Which leads us to the next scene where she. Where Margaret calls on one person who she can talk to who actually understands sort of the state of what's going on in terms of, like, at least Clara's condition.

[A]

Who knows Clara's history. Yeah. Which is her father.

[B]

Yes. And yes. So. So we find ourselves in Margaret's hotel room where she sits on the bed and calls her husband and. And said, you know, and says that Clara's met a boy. But I'm. Don't worry. I'm gonna. You know, I'll. I'll put the kibosh on it. Like, I'll. I'll make sure that it doesn't move forward. And he is like, you better darn well make sure that you don't do that, because that's not gonna happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you start to get a sense of how unhappy Margaret is and how much this trip is supposed to, I think, partially rekindle what it was about their marriage and remind her of why she fell in love with Roy. I think that's a little bit of why they're there. But also, as an audience, we're led into the third fact that Margaret is not in a happy marriage herself. And I think she also has a fear that that could happen to Clara. Down the line from.

[A]

Yeah, the. The vibe I always got was that this trip was supposed to be the three of them and that something. At some point before going. I don't know if it was the week before, a month before. I don't know how long this trip's been in the works, but it. I think that in Margaret's mind, it was going to be the three of them, and she and Roy were going to go back to where they were really happy, and it was going to. They were. It was going to help them, and Clara was going to be there, and Clara was going to get to experience what she experienced. And at some point, Roy Said, I'm not going. And he says, probably had a business

[B]

deal or something and was like, this is business is far more important than this trip. I got. I gotta stay here and do this thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And he said, you know, somebody's gotta pay for this. And then sort of throws in her face like, are you gonna pay for it? And we're that Margaret with. Again, these are all details. That little breadcrumbs you get from the show. I. My background story that I have for this is that Margaret comes from money. Then Margaret comes from probably a super upper crust and probably married down when she married Roy, because in her mind, she was marrying for love. And Roy never got over that. She married below her station and basically has worked to prove to everyone in their lives that he's worthy. It's like that. That one marriage in craz. Rich Asians. The beautiful cousin, fashionable cousin who marries a poor dude, but he's like a tech genius and he ends up becoming a billionaire. But he's like, he's always unhappy because he's like, I know your family doesn't approve of me. And she's like, but I love you and I'm hot. And he's like, that's not enough. I feel like that's the Margaret Roy situation, where she's like, honey, I love you. And he's like, that's not enough.

[B]

Well, so this scene. So we go. We go into the song Dividing Day, which is beautiful song. And again, another song. I've heard a character grapple with something like this before, of realizing that maybe the love that they've had is no longer there, that they've hit a crossroads and that things probably aren't going to be the same when she gets home after this trip. But the thing about this number that sticks out to me from the original production, it's just something you don't see on stage in a musical very often because people have to sing, is that she sits down and she lights a cigarette. And I think there's something about that direction that I remember watching it. It's like this is a signal that this is a coping mechanism. And she is at her last rope because she needs to have a smoke. And for her to have to sit down and have this cigarette is like, lord Jesus, get me through the rest of this day. That cigarette says a lot.

[A]

There's something about that original production that I don't want to say. It can never be equaled. But I want anyone who's doing Piazza, if you're ever doing a production Of Piazza. I want you to really think about this. What made that original production so successful was not just the beauty of it. That beauty came from a kind of dramaturgy that we don't see very often. It is not beautiful for the sake of beauty. It's not moving for the sake of emotion. Everything is. The details of that production, of the set, of the costumes, of the props, of the staging are so meticulously of that world. And it's why you feel so swept away in it. Because everything, like, down to the detail of Margaret having her first cigarette alone in her room after the. After the tense conversation with Roy. That's, Again, that puts you in that era. And it's.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

It's. It's those kind of details that, honestly, so many productions don't think about.

[B]

There's. So.

[A]

There's such a lack of good dramaturgy in musicals.

[B]

Well, and it was. And I remember it was striking at the time too, because at that point in films, we. They. They had, like. Studios had come up with the rule that, like, leading characters. Unless, like you. Leading characters don't smoke unless they're a villain, like, smoking is a bad thing. So, like, from a moral standpoint, like. Because I don't know if you remember this, but, like in My Best Friend's Wedding was a big deal that Julia Roberts smoked.

[A]

I remember. Yeah.

[B]

Because it was like, only bad people are supposed to smoke in movies. Like, you know, like, heroes don't smoke in movies. And so I kind of. I remember having that sort of in my mindset at the time, because that wasn't that long after that movie had come out. But. And you did in. At that period, in that period, seem more smoking on stage, like, you know, with. With practical stage cigarettes as opposed to, like, the awful, like, ugly E cigarette or like, blow on the. Blow on it like a. Like a candy cigarette that you see in most Broadway shows now, if people do smoke at all. But there was something so effective about her lighting that cigarette in that moment of just the. I just gotta have one to get through this moment.

[A]

And it's because it wasn't a statement.

[B]

No, she does it so casually. It's just in the. It's. She does it during the. The instrumental bridge of the song. She. She, like. She opens her cigarette case, she taps one out, she puts it in her mouth, she lights it and she. She just sits there enjoying having that cigarette and finishing the rest of that song and is like, I made it through this day and here goes the next one. And Lord knows what it's gonna be.

[A]

But before the day can end. Oh.

[B]

Cause that's what I was just about to say before we even get to the end of the day. Holy shit. Does shit go down?

[A]

Yes, because she calls for Clara, but, oh, no, Clara's not in her room. Clara has agreed to meet Fabrizio for a secret meeting in a garden nearby, and he's given her directions, and she gets a little too cocky and she thinks she has them memorized, so she throws them away and she starts to get lost. And she starts to realize that strangers are not always people like you. Sometimes strangers are dangerous. And it's the dark of the night and she starts to freak out, and she goes back to her infant state.

[B]

Well, I was just gonna say right before this moment happens, and I don't know if it's pre dividing day or after dividing day. I think it's. It's pre dividing day, because right at the end of dividing day, she says claire, and then she runs out. But before dividing date is. She sits down on the bed and she looks at the audience and she. And she tells us what happened. Yes. So this is the first reveal that we get of Clara's situation, which was that she has an injury from a childhood which was getting kicked in the back of the head by a Shetland pony at her birthday party. It's so. Which is like. I mean, it's become a thing of memes. Because. Because it is. When you think about it, it is kind of funny where it's like, that's the plot device that you came up with for this to have happened. But when you think about how traumatic of a moment something like that would be for a parent, like, you think about a kid falling and breaking an arm is traumatic. To have your child injured by an animal by accident has just got to be. Be like. So, like, the world stops.

[A]

Yeah. People get. People get tripped up on the Shetland pony. Because that's also.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm sorry, that's just a funny phrase.

[B]

But Shetland pony.

[A]

Yeah, It's. The details of it are more of that era because, again, remember, this is probably circa 1937. I guess, at this point that. That this birthday party happens, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or 37, 39, around that late 30s.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So, you know, and it's the south, and this is. I'm sure, first of all, you know, having a pony for your birthday is something that a lot of people talk about, but it's the 30s, it's the south, so that all these are details that make sense. I think it's worth it, like, for a show with such sweeping drama. And then you hear Shetland pony, you're like, huh, that's now under the chat. But yeah, no, it is ultimately just the. Not just, but the. The storytelling beat of as a parent. And this. And this is explored even further in Act 2 for Margaret's real kind of like, all is lost moment, that as a parent, your number one, other than raising your child to be a person of the world, your next job is to keep. Do your damnedest to keep them safe. And. And what is ultimately a celebratory moment, you know, your kid has a birthday once a year. It's a. It's a party. It's. It's weirdly a time when your guards like a little bit it down. And that's when the unthinkable happens and it has altered the course of their lives forever. And. And there's a detail that Margaret leaves out that she explains in Act 2 about what happened, which just to reveal now, is that when this was happening, because her friends were like, claro, I guess, was on the pony and they were leading the pony around and what had happened was the phone. Phone rang and. And Margaret decided to go answer it. And it was in that moment that she went to go answer the phone that. That the pony kicked her. And it's a guilt that she holds onto forever because in her mind, at one moment I wasn't there for my kid. That was the moment my kid's life changed forever. And it's. It's this horrible guilt and burden that she has and also why she is so overprotective and why she does her damnedest to make Clara as happy as possible possible, because she. This thing that Roy says, you know, can never let Clara lead a quote unquote normal life in Margaret's mind is her fault.

[B]

Yeah. So anyway, all that to say, which leads us back to this moment of her getting lost as she's trying to find Fabrizio. Clara's trying to find Fabrizio, and she has a complete and total meltdown in the middle of wherever she is. And it's the first time that we as an audience see how distressed she is when she doesn't know what's going on and how she immediately reverts to her very young self. She starts reciting her address out loud.

[A]

Clara Johnson, 142 E. Lake St. Yep.

[B]

And Margaret finally runs in and finds her and tells everyone around who. Because all of these people have rushed to their concern, which just adds to her hysteria. But Margaret shoos everyone away and takes Clara back. Back to her. The hotel room and lays her down. She sings a snippet of a lullaby, which we'll hear again at the end of the show as Margaret's big final number Fable. But in this case is sung as a little bit of a lullaby. Clara falls asleep and Margaret goes down to the bar. It is for this reason that hotel bars were specifically invented, which is another. Yeah. And. And so she leaves Clara to presumably sleep it off while she goes down and has a. And has a whiskey. And then who comes a knock in Fabricia. Mr. Little Puppy Twink Italian Boy.

[A]

And. And this. And this is where we get the Act 1 finale. Say it somehow. Which is just another. It's another example of.

[B]

Of the.

[A]

Of them sort of bridging the gap between their two languages and their two cultures of. They both know a little bit of what the other one is saying, but they ult. It doesn't matter. They ultimately know what the other one is feeling. I know the sound of touch me. I think I hear the sound of wrap your arms around me, it's so good.

[B]

And they end up using. They. They end up ultimately singing harmony in Oz. Because it's gay. Because it's. It's a. It's a. It's just singing. Singing music together. You, You.

[A]

They.

[B]

They. You feel their. Their love connecting without even having to sing out actual words. They just sing in harmony on an ah. And they, you know, they become closer. His shirt comes off. She's already laying in bed in a slip. And they start to make an out. And in the marriage.

[A]

And marriage is proposed as well.

[B]

Oh, right. Clara says. Clara says, marry me out of nowhere. And he goes, no, I have to ask it. And she says, well, then ask it.

[A]

And then he says, well, will you?

[B]

And she's like, yes.

[A]

And they. And then it goes back into it. And yes, it becomes. Becomes the next step of their consummation of she pulls off his shirt and she starts kissing his chest, kissing his neck. And they start to really like it. This. This is no longer like a puppy love kind of kiss. This is Clara's taking the next step into womanhood. And just as they're making out who should walk in.

[B]

Well, so I was gonna say. I was. I was telling you. When I saw the original production at Lincoln Center, I gasped at this moment, just because of. First of all, just the way it was staged was so fucking gorgeous. So the bed is on an angle downstage left, and there is a door to the hotel room upstage right of that, but it's still very forward on the thrust. There's no other scenery on stage. And all that's used to denote where the hallway is leading to the door is a strip of light. And you watch Margaret walk the full length of the stage from left to right to get to that door. And you know, she's coming back to that room, and you see. And the two of them are going at it on the bed. And she opens that door and sees them, and we black out. And that's the end of the act. And it is well to make it

[A]

what I think, what it actually is and make. Because I remember I had a memory of this, and at the library, I think I wrote it down. But, like, she opened. She opens the door, sees them, she's frozen. And then she takes a step forward, and then the lights go out. Yeah, I remember that blackout. And so let me also now paint you a picture quickly of intermission as we get into Act 2. And Act 2, luckily, is also a lot shorter than Act 1. So we will be going quickly.

[B]

We'll move through it quickly.

[A]

My grandmother at the time worked at Lincoln center and thus got a lot of perks that a lot of Lincoln Center Theater subscribers usually get. So, like, there's a VIP lounge at the Beaumont that you can enjoy a cocktail in before and during the show. And during intermission, we go. And the show had just opened, like, I think it opened, like, two weeks prior, and it was, like, a 75% full theater on, like, a Saturday night. And we are in the cocktail lounge with a bunch of other, like, prime Lincoln center subscribers, co workers of my grandmother, and I'm the youngest person there by four decades. And they're all going. I mean, it's just so proud of itself. Like, I don't know, it's interesting, but, like, you gotta. At some point, you gotta let up. And I remember, and they all looked at me and they're like, I mean, Matt, can you follow it? And I just remember taking a beat and going, I think it's pretty fantastic. I don't know what any of you are talking about. And they all just went, well, you know, to be young again. And I was like, okay, well, fuck my dragon. We'll see who's right in 20 years. Cut to today, and here we are. And that's a memory I have forever with this show.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

Yeah. And then Act 2 begins, and we are now in Rome, and we learned that Margaret has whisked Clara away from Fabrizio. To go to Rome instead. And this is actually where I wanted to. A little quick talk about the costumes now because Everything that Kelli O' Hara wears in Act 1 is beautiful, but it is very girly. It's pink, it's light blue. Her little plastic headband. Come Cedrice. Plastic headband. And she's. She's dressed like a very fashionable teenager. Like she looks like she's gonna go to the. To the. To the sock hop and act. Top of Act 2 is the first time she looks like a woman. She has a head scarf on. She's got big old sunglasses. She's got a low cut dress. Spaghetti straps.

[B]

Spaghetti straps, yep.

[A]

Figure forming. And like. And. And I remember there was an article in the Times talking about the design of this show. And Katherine Zuber talked about like saying in her dramaturgy with Bart Sher, this is the first time Clara's dressed herself. Everything Clara wears in Act 1 is what Margaret has picked out for her in Act 2. She picks out herself. And she's been influenced by Franka and the women of Italy and she. And she. And she's recognizing what looks good on her and she's recognizing her own womanhood now. So she's wearing something that shows more skin, wearing something that's far more fashionable and not just super American. And. And it's so striking. And it's. And she's also, also in a mood which also helps with it.

[B]

She's pissed. She's not. She's. She's beating the, the, the. The ruins of the. Of the columns with her heel.

[A]

To which Margot says stop that. That's illegal. It's so.

[B]

Oh God.

[A]

Once again funny. And we get ayut to me, which will. Let's do. Let's do a brief thing with ayutomi. What does ayutomi mean?

[B]

It means help me in Italian. I don't speak English, but I have to tell you what's going on. Yes.

[A]

Who tells us this?

[B]

This is Signora Nacarelli in her. Fully dropping any sort of an accent. Just straight on American English accent. Patty Cohenhauer. God bless. I mean it's a.

[A]

Doing a better with it too. By the way.

[B]

That line gets a big laugh. And I think that. And I think it's funny. I don't have a problem with it. I think it's a great. It's a great way to again add a little bit of levity to a moment that is. I mean the whole song is basically. Basically about how Italians thrive on drama and how, you know, how in order to feel passion for life, one has to have drama and be dramatic. And so it's the entire Nacarelli family, very stylized staging where they're all in chairs in specials and over dramatically feeling their feelings and, and everything where, you know, we have Franco worried about Giuseppe cheating and Giuseppe is just being Giuseppe and, and Fabrizio is just, is. Is mourning the loss of, of Clara's presence. And, and, and then we learn that this is.

[A]

That Signora Nacarelli has suspicions that her husband is cheating on her as well.

[B]

Oh, right. Does father cheat on mother? She suspects. Does father know that? She suspects. Suspects. He suspects.

[A]

Risk is everything.

[B]

Yes. And, and, and so the song, you know, ends in just an over some over the top singing with, you know, Franka hitting, as Matt said earlier, a high fucking work. I mean, just incredible.

[A]

I have a visceral memory of watching that number and cause you, when you, when you're hearing it for the first time, you're not. Not expecting it. So when Sarah Barry hit that high F, the. Which was put in there back when Kelly was playing Franca and she was feeling a certain kind of way that she, she, she was like, if I can't have more music, the music I do get, I would really like to show off a bit. So she said, so she said to Adam gettle on my YouTube, give me a high F. And then of course, she doesn't end up playing Franca on Broadway. And when Sarah Wright Barry gets it, when she auditioned, they asked her if she had a high E. Was. Which she did. And then they get to the first day of rehearsal and she's like, so you set E. This is an F, and I don't have that.

[B]

And so how do we fix that problem?

[A]

Well, so allegedly on the first day of rehearsal, they're like, okay, well Kelly will sing it for you. And so Kelly sang the High F&IU to me for her and Sari Ray Barry's like, that can never happen again. So she goes for a voice teacher is like, I need an F by the time I get to tech. And she got it and it's amazing. And she.

[B]

Boy did she. It is preserved, man. Yeah, that note will get right there. But so the number is.

[A]

Yeah, the number is mostly a comedic take on explaining how the showing us the ways in which this Italian family processes emotion and grief and suspicion. And as Signora Nacarelli says, risk is everything, because in order to have things, you need to be able to be willing to lose things. And you have to understand the power of both things in order to fully grasp the state of emotions in the world and feel love in the way that we do. And it's. It's human humor, but there's a truth to it. And that then brings us into the next scene where we have our only real confrontation between Margaret and Clara. The breaking point.

[B]

Right. Tell them about it. Well, which lead. I mean, which leads to the title song. But.

[A]

But Margaret doing the American Southern thing of. I don't want to talk about the bad thing. Clara. We passed the bad thing. And Clara is saying, no, we're going to talk about it. I told Fabrizio I was going to marry him. Why. Why are we. Why did you move me away? And then she tells Margaret, like, who are you to say anything about love? No. Or who are you? Whatever. Are we being honest? Daddy doesn't love you. Look in the mirror. And. And.

[B]

Oh, right. And Margaret slaps her. Slaps her.

[A]

Which is. Might be the first time a song begins with a slap. Take that, carousel.

[B]

But. And that moment, I mean, that I remember, it was like double gasp moment in the theater with that of Daddy doesn't love you. Was. Are. You're already like mid gasp. And then she just comes out and thwacks her. And everybody's like.

[A]

Like, it's that thing where parents always feel like they. They're doing a good job of keeping their kids in the dark of the trap. Troubles at home. And then you, of course, learn. No, they know. They know.

[B]

They know everything. Kids aren't stupid.

[A]

They're living in that house with you. And again of. And again, this is another moment where, like Brantley talked about in his review, he's like, what's her mental state? Because she comes in with this bit of clarity. It's like, yeah, she's not an idiot and she's not five. She's. The point is that she's more perceptive than people give her credit for. And be. And she would be further along mentally, most likely, if she had hadn't been sheltered for the last 14 years. Who knows where she'd be at this moment, but we now know what she's capable of.

[B]

Exactly. It's. It's a. It's a clear. It's a clear. What's the word I'm looking for? It's a. It's a clear demonstration of her. Her. A bit of her mental growth like we were talking about. Like, she. There. There is. There is development happening. She is. She does process things in a mature way sometimes and does understand how things do work. And she's clearly spent enough time probably listening from the other side of her bedroom door to Roy and Margaret, have at it. Where she's just like, this is.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

This is not working, guys.

[A]

This is. You're tired. This is no good. She's. She's able to acknowledge when. When relationships aren't happy, and she's getting her own taste of a happy relationship. And the theme of the song basically, is, you know, we are different, you and I. You know, you. You're interested in the logic and the facts and the analytics of things, and I understand the emotion of things. When I look back on our time, I'm going to think about where I was when I met Fabrizio and how I felt when I met Fabrizio. You're going to remember the statues we saw. You're going to remember the art that we exhibited and who painted.

[B]

You're going to remember the book you were staring at, instead of the feeling of the moment.

[A]

Yes. And again, this is where I say, this has more emotional clarity than beauty is, but I think it has less intellectual clarity. And part of that is because Clara's dealing with a very heavy emotion in this moment. And. And I think it makes sense that how she sings is not precise, but you understand the feeling that she's. That she's getting across. And ultimately that's what's important, because it needs to be the thing that convinces Margaret to go back to Florence and to ignore Roy's concerns and just go head on with Clara. And the marriage, which she does, offers the them a dowry of $5,000, which she says to the audience, that's going to be her money she's going to take out, but it's okay, it's her money. And Senor Nacarelli says, well, Clara's going to have to convert to Catholicism, which then always leads to Vicki giving that great double take to the audience, of course.

[B]

Boom.

[A]

And we go into Clara working on her. On her rosary for the. For the conversion, which leads into the second outburst of Clara, which is, as this is happening, it's. Again, when you watch that staging, it's all these wonderful little moments of reminding us that Clara and Fabrizio's love is very. So much rooted in sexuality, because as she's studying with the priest, he keeps on distracting her by, like, nibbling her neck. He, like.

[B]

He just.

[A]

He wants to keep touching and kissing her. And as this is happening, then you get Giuseppe and Franca and he comes back with the flowers, which then leads Again, to the ayute to me of it all. And she's like. She's making a scene and she kisses Fabrizio to be overly dramatic and make a statement. And Clara sees that and in her simple viewpoint, views it as, you bitch. You get away from my man. And then it goes on this whole tirade, and ultimately, like comes down to. To the point of like, why did she do that? Why did he let her. I don't understand any of this. I don't understand any of you. Because the truth is, she's right. It makes no sense. It's all ridiculous. But she's. And. And you think this might be a all is lost moment because the way Clara is doing it, it is a childlike tantrum. And Margaret's like, I am so sorry. And Frank, there's a bean. Frank just goes, no, she is right. And it's like, it's this whole. That's how you kind of know that Clara's gonna kind of be okay here, right?

[B]

Well, I mean, she comes at Franco with, don't you have a house? Where are your babies? Of just like, you know, there. Oh. Because she says, there's a. There's a nice way to behave. It's what nice people do. And you are not doing this. Yeah, that's how it should be. People fall in love. And that's you. You're a nice person. And she's like. And I don't get why everybody here is being mean and vindictive to each other.

[A]

And she acknowledges, like, she knows that everyone's staring her.

[B]

Her.

[A]

And she. And she says, like, this is so unfair. She's like, I'm going through something because you all were being stupid and you're all going to judge me. This noise. And again, the point. The, the, the drop is everyone. But Margaret's like, yeah, you're right. That was stupid. Why did we do that? And Frank and Franka basically is like, Giuseppe and I are going to, like, try to be better. Like, and we're actually going to work on this marriage now. Like, Clara kind of pushes Frank and Giuseppe to actually fix the marriage.

[B]

Clara's the mediator. She's just. That's what's gonna happen. She's gonna, like, join this family and just become like, the full family mediator of, like, guys, what the fuck are you doing? Just be nice.

[A]

Just be nice. Yeah, just be nice. Just be nice. It'll be good. And you think it's all gonna be okay. And then, as Adam mentions, we get to the moment of the church it's the rehearsal. And again, these. These brief moments from where you. They never want you to forget. Like, Clara's doing really well. She still is not there, and she probably never will be. And it's always going to be a journey. Cause they're there. And Clara doesn't understand that this is the rehearsal. And Margaret kind of has to be like, it's okay. That's tomorrow. This is the rehearsal. And she's confused and a little embarrassed that she's confused, but she shuts up and she starts writing out her form. And that's when Signor Nacarelli sees the form. And at the moment, all we. We, the audience, think that he sees the way she writes and thinks that something's off, and that's what cancels it. And that's what leads to our. It's not really the alignment of the clock number, but it's the all is lost moment for Margaret where she releases the information about the phone that I turned my head and sings about being a mother alone in Italy. And we have that reprise into the Beauty is. And I kind of love that. I thought if I had a child, I would take such care of her. And it's. Oh, God, it's so. It's so good.

[B]

It's so good. Well, and I really. That's a moment of music that I love where she. You know, the pony. I'm not gonna sing it, but the pony kicked her here. She fell. It seemed to take forever for her to fall. And it. And you know, those magnificent moments in life that happen so slowly. And the song itself, Gettel's writing in that moment really makes you slow down with her as she has to get herself back together to. You have. You're right. She hits rock bottom in this moment of I am so fucked. Because now it's like, I'm gonna have to go back to Roy and explain all of this happened. And. But she. But she also knows that going back to Roy is not the move for Clara, that there's no help for her there, and that she has to find a way to see this through and allow Clara to be her own person.

[A]

But then the shoe drops because she goes back to the senior Nocarelli thinking she's gonna have to work some magic. And it turns out the thing that he has a problem with is the age difference, which. Which she massages into helping him. And then when that's not quite enough, she triples. And that. And that ultimately is what sells it. And they go on their little walk,

[B]

their own little professional which again, kind of wild. Another very gray, weird area we're ending this show in of where like the Nocarellis love her, but also they're taking. They go to decide to move forward because of. They're giving her extra money to like cover the quote, unthe damages, I guess. Yeah, it's.

[A]

No one's clean here except for Fabrizio.

[B]

Correct? Yeah. There are ethics being bent all over the place behind the scenes for the two of them to be happy, which, you know, I think is kind of what parents do. I think there's a lot of things that parents do for kids that they may never know about where ethics have been bent in order for a kid to be able to do something that they might not have otherwise had an opportunity to do. You know, it's just. It's the age old. You know, a parent will do anything for their child. Child to succeed.

[A]

Yeah. And the number ends with him having a light kiss, which is a very. It's a little out of left field. Like you sense that they have this connection throughout the whole show and it just sort of culminates with this little light kiss. I always viewed it as. It's a moment for Margaret to get some tenderness towards her of affection that she doesn't ever really get throughout the show.

[B]

It really. I appreciate it. Appreciate that. I think that it very much is kind of Senor Naccarelli because it doesn't feel sexual. I mean, it doesn't not feel sexual because it's wistful. Yes. But he. But because you're right, there has been sort of an interesting tension between the two of them throughout the show where they have a very nice rapport, they get on very well. And it's the one of. Of the reasons that she ultimately. That Margaret ultimately decides to let Clara be part of the family because she and Signor Nacarelli have a good rapport with each other. And she's like, he's a mature person. They'll get, you know, she'll be taken care of. But the kiss, I think the kiss is. Yeah, it's a couple of things, I think. One, it is a light exploration of this flirtation that's been. Been happening between the two of them for the last month or so. Because this vacation does get extended. We never find out how long it was originally supposed to go. But Margaret does extend the vacation. And so I think it's sort of a culmination of a sort of a long attraction between the two of them. But in the end it's also just a bit of a release for Margaret. And I think it's a moment of clarity for her where she's like, I'm not in love with my husband anymore. This kiss felt nicer to me than what I have at home. And I think it's. In a lot of ways, I think for her, it's kind of the. It's the finality of it. Because it's after that moment that she goes back to the hotel and calls Roy and she's like, we're going through with it. It's happening, it's done, and it's my decision. You are not involved with this. This decision. I am letting her do this because it's because I want her to be happy.

[A]

And says the quiet part out loud of, she has a chance to have what you and I don't have, which is, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Love and happiness. And then Roy, with the kicker of, oh, I thought we did what, dude,

[B]

you straight cis white men of the 50s, man. Well, and some from today.

[A]

Many from today. He's like, I don't know. The bills were paid on time, aren't they? I don't hit you, do I? You're not. You don't cry in the shower, do you? I thought we were happy. No, bitch, you were like.

[B]

And don't. I don't. I cry in the shower with my cigarette in the shower. Just like chain smoking while I wash my hair. Fuck you, Roy. True.

[A]

Fuck you, Roy. But the other bomb that is dropped is she acknowledges to Roy over the phone about Clara's abnormalities as she says them. And Clara overhears this, and it's the first time, as we see, that Clara has been made aware that there is something off with her. And this leads to another coup d' etat of the original production, which is. Okay.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Are you going to describe it or

[B]

do you want me to describe it?

[A]

I'm going to describe it because this also is the. This is also the COVID for the album, which I also remember people were underwhelmed with the original macmillan poster for the production. And then the album came out with this cover and everyone was like, why wasn't this the poster? It's like, well, first of all, they hadn't been in tech yet, so they didn't have that photo.

[B]

Yeah, this moment didn't exist.

[A]

So the Beaumont is a famously very deep stage, as we know. It's got the thrust and then the deep stage. And yes, this production of Piazza, while it did take advantage of the depth of the stage, if you ever watch it, there's still like another 30ft to go. Like, that's how deep that thing goes.

[B]

There's a full Henry Higgins house upstage of that psych.

[A]

Exactly. And so the whole show, it's always played with negative space, but it is ultimately a very lush production. But it's not, like, overlywhelmingly lush. You got some pieces here and there. And then Clara runs out of the hotel room because she's dealing with this information. The Kelly runs out onto the thrust and back towards the back of the stage towards the psych. And the set clears away to reveal the entire psych, which is now this, like, sun yellow. And Kelly runs along the psych and is just in silhouette and you see just how massive this theater is, the stage is, and how. And. And. And it's. It's this st. Stunning moment. And everything clears away and it's. And the photo is Kelly in silhouette in front of the psych. And then she barrels towards the thrust and sings her little heart out. And then we get into the next scene. But you didn't expect the stage to empty that way and to have this massive impact from the psych. It was just beautiful. Did I do it justice?

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. It really was a stunning moment of. Yeah, it's. It's incredible. Even if you watch it on the bootleg, it's like, holy crap, that is you. Well, and you just. And it's. It's not often in musicals, I was gonna say anymore, but at all that you really get a visual like that, which you can't imagine it on an album. The music for that moment is on the album. It's the. What's the title of that track?

[A]

Powers Interlude.

[B]

Clara's Interlude. But that music is all that moment. It's from the moment she runs out and you watch her run the width of that stage and come forward until she, like, falls in a heap on the floor and sings her. Her. Her little obbligato. But that moment, the. She looks so tiny and it's. And it does such a great job of showing how little she feels and how over and how overwhelming and hu. Everything is around her in that moment. It's again, scale. The use of scale in that moment of her just feeling so itty bitty, but then just having this huge sound come out of her was just the juxtaposition of. It was so, so cool.

[A]

Which then leads us into the final moments, which is at the church for the wedding. She tells Fabrizio she can't marry him. She understands there's something wrong with her and he can't marry her. There's also this. Kelly did this thing, and I think Katie does it too, where after the interlude, there's a moment of silence while she's alone on stage. And she's like, kind of slightly pounding her head because she's like, what's going on in there that's wrong? I don't understand. And it's just. It's so heartbreaking. But this leads to Fabrizio singing Love to Me, which is just really beautiful ballad of just sort of like the. I know you. I see you. All these little things about you think I don't notice, but this is what. And this is how I see you. And this is what I consider our love to be.

[B]

This song wrecks me, especially if it's done really well. But he. It's the thing. Well, speaking of growth of characters, this song also displays Fabrizio's better understanding of the English language. It's his first song where he is singing in English to her. And his. The imagery that he provides and the. The narrative that he gives is cohesive. The. I can't remember what the lead up is to it, but he. He says, since that moment in the square when your hat is carried in the air just so I can chase it, just so I can be there. And you. You just get. You can tell how enamored with her. He's so. Still is like. He just. He's. He's just in love with this person and he doesn't care. He doesn't care. He. You know, and. And I. And it's. It's sort of a. Nowadays, I think you look at it from a modern sensibility where we know more about people, about, you know, mental. Mental illness and handicap and all of that. Where you. You see people of. Of mixed couples, of somebody who does have a sort of mental disability and someone who doesn't. Who understand. Understands that, you know, who loves them for them, because we have a better understanding of how that works as a culture and as beings. But his love for her in that moment is. I mean, it's sort of been undying through this entire show. But that moment where he's able to articulate it better is just so. So beautiful.

[A]

It's the first song that he sings that isn't passion, it's purely tenderness. And I think that is the real test of what they have together. It's also, I think, a great example of why Matt Morrison was actually quite lovely casting, because I didn't really talk about this much, but Looking at videos and photos of Stephen Pasquale with Celia Keenan Bolger. What makes her look so young is that Steven Pascual is such a man. And it just doesn't really feel. Feel like an equal pairing in a way where Kelly is, you know, two years older than Matthew, but ultimately, and. And Clara is supposed to be older than Fabrizio, but there still needs to feel, like, this evenness there. And that has to come from her feeling a bit older physically and him feeling a bit younger emotionally, so he can have, like, a manly Italian to him. But there has to be a soft boyishness as well, in order to counterbalance her, like, girly Persona, but her womanly body. And I always thought they were a really beautiful pairing. I would have killed to have seen Aaron and Kelly do it together, but Matthew and Kelly were such a beautiful pair. And this leads to the final tableau of, as we talked about, Margaret about to give Clara away, that gorgeous interaction, their final interaction of the I can't. Can't leave you. Yes, you can. And then Fable, which is this beautiful, stunning 11 o' clock number slash finale of Margaret still going through a back and forth of, what is love? What is life? What is it that we can expect? What is it that we are owed? What is it that we're capable of? And she goes back and forth of like, love is never going to be perfect, but actually, no, love isn't even real. But maybe it is. And if it is, I think you deserve it, Clara, and I want to give it to you. And in that final moment, what is the final line of Fable? What do we come back to? What does she say?

[B]

I'm going to cry. She. She looks. Well, the light changes and you see her look out and she goes, Clara, the light in the piazza, she sees it. Mm.

[A]

Adam's crying. Guys, it's. She, she. She. She sees what Clara sees and she understands. Understands. And I think in that moment, whether you feel she did the right thing or not, Margaret finally decides that she has done the right thing. And she. And then you see her not only give Claire away, but join the Nacarellis. I think in the staging, Franka's the one who reaches out her handout to, like, have her join them, either Franca or Signora Nacarelli, one of them. And it's just like this beautiful moment of, like. And now Margaret kind of belongs with them too. I'm sure she's gonna go back to America at some point, but she's now part of this community as well. It's not just she's giving Clara away now, but also she gets to be a part of her family again.

[B]

Well, we should talk about one last thing before we move on to, you know, the legacy of everything but this last moment of the show. During Fable, the set is, again, very simple but very effective, where effectively, the only piece of scenery in is this huge gate. It's a big, long gothic fence that looks very much like you'd see, like, in a. In a. In an Italian cathedral. But the wedding is being set up behind her as she's singing downstage. It's. It's all in dim light, but she. But. But the. The wedding procession is beginning behind her as the song is going on. And, yeah, at the end of Fable, she sees the light and she notices behind her that, yeah, it's either Franke or singer Nacarelli, but somebody is reaching around the corner of the gate out to her to join the proceedings, and she runs and goes behind the gate. And so then everyone is pictured behind the gate in the ceremony. Yeah, it's beautiful.

[A]

Yeah. So, as I said, this show opened to respectful but not rapturous reviews. I could only find a small handful that were like, this is a stunning achievement and we should all be so fucking grateful. The Times. John Simon. John Simon. Variety. Everyone was like, I am very grateful that they made this. It doesn't work. What everyone agreed about was like, victoria Clark is giving the best performance of the year, and this production looks stunning. And then most were pleased with the score. A few people weren't super pleased with it. Only Variety liked the libretto. Everyone else was like, this libretto is weak sauce. Which I thought was stupid anyway. But so it goes into award season as kind of like the respected, but not the respected show that has no chance in hell of winning anything. Because Spamalot was such a juggernaut and

[B]

Spelling, the beautiful artistic show.

[A]

Yeah. And Spelling Bee was the show that, like, actually had a shot at beating Spamalot because it was such a delightful surprise. But, like, who even knows? And Dirty Round Scoundrel really kind of got no respect at the time. But don't worry, Gunkle's next episode, we will give it the respect it deserves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what started to happen was it starts to pick up some awards at the drama desks at the Outer Critics Circle. And always a little bit more than people expect. Vicky always wins, but then, like, oh, they won music. Oh, they won lighting. Oh, Kelly and Sarah Wright. Barry got nominated for the Outer Critics Circle, things like that. And then it ends up doing Very well with nominations. But again, you w. You, you read predictions and you watch videos on Theater Talk and everyone's like, well, Spamalot's going to clean up. And like, you know, Piazza's gonna win for, for Vicky. And like, that's probably it. And so when people talk about that Tony of how could Spamalot be Piazza, how could it be spelling be, What I tell people is Piazza overperformed on Tony night in a way that I can't really explain unless you were there. Because Stephen Hol Holden, who for a long time was a film critic for the Times, ended up writing the review of the cast album which came out that may like right damn smack in the middle of nominate, like right after nominations, like a month before the awards. And he's the one who, who wrote the famous quote that they put in the ads from the New York Times of the most romantic score since west side Story. And, and he is the first major critic in a major publication to say, this score is a stone cold middle masterpiece and everyone who's singing it deserves a goddamn Nobel Peace Prize. Yeah. And. And that something shifted with that because then you go into Tony night where Spamalot does win musical and they win director. But I remember Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was expected to win set, Spamalot was expected to win costumes. People expected Spamalot to win score and book. And if it didn't win score, people thought like Bill Finn could win score and Piazza ends up winning actress score, orchestrations, set, lighting, costumes. It wins the most Tonys of the night with the best Tony performance of the night as well. And it, and it ends up playing that whole summer, like to really strong sales. And it never after that summer quite got back to that level of fervor, but it did well enough that it extended multiple times. So it ended up playing for over a year and became this turning point for Lincoln center of it wasn't like the biggest hit they had, but it became the layup to things like South Pacific and King and I and My Fair lady. And as we said, like, it brings Victoria Clark into the mainframe. It levels up Kelly o' Hara's career. Bart Sher becomes a major player. And it also started a trend of design that only Bart and his team could ever really perfect gorgeous. As King and I and South Pacific looked, I don't think they ever really did it as well again as they did with Piazza, which was the negative space, minimum minimalism style, because it's a beautiful set, but it's not opulent and that wasn't really seen on a Broadway musical kind of ever. It was sort of like, if you're gonna be big, you're gonna be splashy, and if you're gonna be simple, you're small. And this was like, you can be both. And. Well.

[B]

And the lighting had a lot to do with that too. Oh, my God, the lighting was incredible. And because, yeah, like you're saying, there were many. There are many little pieces of scenery. I would say that the central square had the most scenery. There were buildings that came in to sort of frame and make the space feel like an intimate little town square, but those would disappear. And even for the. When they're in Rome, it's like the column set piece is like a little piece that sort of rolls on, that they're sitting around and it's just. And it's lit in a way that it feels like there's so much more going on, but it's just that. Or even the Nocarelli's home is like a sofa and some chairs and a side table. But there's like the denoting of hallways with strips of light sort of starts in that moment, but then they use it again in the hotel room. They did a lot with negative space and lighting that made it feel like there was so much scenery and that it was this lush, extravagant experience. But it really was very carefully curated to feel. Still managed to feel intimate. Quite honestly.

[A]

No, absolutely. And what makes it frustrating to me, looking back, is so many people involved with Piazza have worked together again since in various forms and to various degrees of success. Bart has done a lot of wonderful things at Lincoln center that I love, many of them with Kelly, I am a Days of Wine and Roses critique a critic. I don't enjoy that show and I don't like the score very much. And it's a shame.

[B]

Never saw it.

[A]

Sorry. I saw it at the Atlantic and then I saw it on Broadway. It was a really great moment for Kelly and Brian. But I find that score to be rather unsuccessful. I find that show to be unsuccessful. And it's a shame because I was like, craig Lucas and Gettel are teaming up again. The things they did with Piazza get them back together. And it just. It was not anywhere near as successful for me. And for all the beautiful things that Bart has done, I just don't think anything's quite matched Piazza. And it's hard to say that with the objective eye. Cause part of that is like the. It was such a surprise. No one knew what to expect from that show or from Him. But were you there for the 10th anniversary concert?

[B]

No, I missed it. I'm so. I was so sad that I was. I know you were there.

[A]

I was gonna say, guess who was there. It was on the set of King and I. Technically speaking, it wasn't the 10th anniversary because they did it in, like, April of 2016. So it was really the 11th anniversary. But it was on the set of. On the set of King and I. It was right before Kelly was finishing her run in the show. And they did it with, like, quite a bit of staging, like, and they talked about this, that it was supposed to just be them with music stance. And then in rehearsals, they all kind of realized that they had muscle memory and, like, remembering all the staging. So they. They did statues and stories, the exact staging, including Michael Buress. And Sarah, you're right, Berry, coming up through the voms to do their A little bit. And Sarah, you're right, Berry, getting entrance applause and statues and stories is how, you know that I was with my people. And Kelly got a full minute of applause for the title song. And everyone, like, everyone was just so lived in and sounded beautiful. And some performances had even gotten better. Like, I thought Kelly was wonderful in 05, and she speaks, you know, harmony harshly on herself. I will say the performance she gave at that. At that reunion concert was like, one for the ages. She found all of the laughs, all of the heart. She really mastered that balance of Clara's mental state. And it was just stunning and ever. I mean, that's everyone. And it's. Yeah, it's a memorable night that I have. And it's a show that's not done very often because it's a show that, as we said, is hard to cast. It's very musically complex.

[B]

Well, vocally, it's a heavy lift for everybody.

[A]

Yeah. And you have to find the right balance. I mean, you see Renee Fleming trying to do it with Dove Cameron, and, like, yes, Renee can sing it, but there's also, like, a lack of musical theaterness about Renee, and there's a lack of operaticness about Dove Cameron. And my issues with the encore's production were a couple things. I found it to be very cold production. I remember it, like, being all white and blue, and I just remember the yellows and the reds of Lincoln Center.

[B]

And I don't mind the original felt like summer. It felt warm, like summer and fall. It was summer heading into fall.

[A]

Exactly. And I remember I have no issues with the castings of encores of, you know, them saying, we want to do this through an Asian American lens. Granted, I don't have the Asian American experience, so when I watched it, I couldn't tell if that was potent or not. But I did find that there was a of lot, lot of musical wanting for me in that production of, for everything that I did. Like, I thought Ruthie and Miles acted it very lovingly. I did really love her beauty as reprise, but there were moments where I was like, I really need some of that vocal heft. I'll say Anna Zabelson.

[B]

Or Zabelson.

[A]

Or Zabelson Zabelson. Very good as Clara. But she was 19, right? And then part of the thing is she, Clara's literally meant to be 26 and there has to be some womanliness about her. And so for Anna I was like, give her 10 more years and she'll be an amazing Clara. So that wasn't her fault, but that was.

[B]

And I, I attended that production with someone who had never seen the, who did not know the show at all, like when it was going in completely blind to it. And, and, and he pointed out to me that the, that, that because Anna was so young and, and was playing the character rather simply, he immediately knew something was not that there was something off about her. Like he clocked it from the get go as opposed to us getting the lovely reveal of information as the plot goes on as it was originally staged. He just, he, he, he was like something there, there's, there's something with, with the daughter that, that's not that, that's, that's not, you know, on, on the reg.

[A]

Well, she looked, she, she immediately clocked as a girl because she was a girl, a little girl. Literally acted like a little girl dressed like a little girl. And, and you, you don't have that, that inner turmoil of when you cast someone a little bit older who, you know, is, is trying to break out of the youthful shell that's been created for her. And, and so that again, that's not an Anna fault. It's not her fault she got cast.

[B]

No, she had a, she had a beautiful voice and she was quite good. It was, it was just a. Amazing for 1930.

[A]

Amazing for 19. The problem was that she was 19. And then, yeah, there were certain, certain notes that weren't hit by other cast members. And I was like, this is encores is. And not we're supposed to sing the score as written. And I got very mad and that was that. So when people were saying, oh, this needs to transfer, I said, does it though? I think we can ask for For a little bit more.

[B]

Okay, so are we talking about dreamcasting now? Is that what we're doing?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do we.

[A]

Now we gotta wrap things up because we gotta talk about dreamcasting.

[B]

All right, well, first of all, I've always been curious to see Audra do Margaret, just because it's Audra. But also, since I saw the original production, I've always been like, in 20 years, I want to see Kelli O' Hara play Margaret Johnson.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's the thing that we've all been putting on our dream boards of, like, is, will this happen? I think this could happen. I would love.

[B]

I mean, I hope that it. Yeah, I hope that it does. I think. I mean, especially as we've gotten to watch, you know, Kelly's. Kelly become this. I have. So. Because, well, even in this last season, we've seen with Fallen Angels where you're like, oh, my gosh, right? She. She's. She's wonderful dramatic actress. She, obviously, the voice has always been glorious. And then we see that she does. I mean, we've seen her do comedy over the years, but seeing her in Fallen Angels, it's like, oh, right. She really can be a bit of a goofball.

[A]

Like, I like the era she's in right now.

[B]

I, too, well, all of which to say, these are all qualities that I love about Vicky Clark. And so I think. And so I think that because. Because I now see Kelly with all of these amazing sort of parallel talents to Vicky Clark's, I'm more and more curious to see what she would do with Margaret Johnson and using her own experience as a mother, what that would bring to her playing this character. I really think that. Yeah, I would kill if Lincoln Center. You know, next week was like, next season, we're doing the 20th anniversary production of Light in the Piazza, starring Kelli O' Hara as Margaret Johnson. I'd be like, and here are my hundreds of dollars to sit in the fifth row, center. I will beat her.

[A]

Here's what I'm saying. Come on, Lear. You know, you can do it. Just, you know, just produce it this time. Just produce it.

[B]

Bring Lier. Hire Bart to come back and direct Kelly in this production of the Light in the Piazza.

[A]

Like, yeah, yeah, He's. You owe him one, Lier. You owe him a solid. So just let him come back and do it, please. It's fine. Please, please.

[B]

We're.

[A]

I think we're.

[B]

We've.

[A]

We've earned it, babe. We've earned it. So just let us. Let us have It. Yeah. I also I mean I don't she'll never get a chance to do it on Broadway. But I would like to see in the next five years Carmen Cusack get to play Margaret.

[B]

She was another person I was going to say. Oh, you're reading my mind. Ever especially ever since ever since I saw her in Bright Star I was like. And knowing that she is a soprano but that just has that great husky belt. It's that it's the pattern Maddie Cohen Hower bit.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Because she would also be an incredible Signora Nacarelli.

[A]

Oh absolutely.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

I want all of it.

[B]

So okay, so if you get Kelly o' Hara in as Margaret Johnson, you have Carmen Cusack as Signora Nacarelli doing the alternate performances like Patty Cohen Hower ended up doing during the original run. That's There we go, problem to solve. We get, we get, we get to have both.

[A]

Yes we we can have, we can have it all. Risk is everything all right? I love this Adam. This has been our first three hour deep dive in over a year and I'm very thrilled. But I also need to and I gotta wrap things up because I've been hogging this room and my mom's been shacked up in the off in her kitchen long enough. It's okay. She won't be shacked up in there for much longer as I move into my my own place soon. So Adam, where can people find you if you want them to find you,

[B]

you can you can find me on the Instagrams I'm Adam Ells on there Adam A D A M E L S me there Sometimes I pop onto the Discord to say hello. I do owe everyone on the Discord who's going to be listening to this pro I I I so we I I will say before before we end I I had done a reach out on social media for for memes of the and the pony kicked her. I did find that there were several shoutouts to John who you know is is the the light in the piazza holic that we know he is. Um a couple of them were his. I think my favorite day is still the side by side photo of a Shetland pony and Kelly o' Hara as Clara Johnson. And it says and next to her it's her and then the pony her on the left and the pony on the right. But it says my 2020 plans. And then the and then the over the pony. It's it's, it says yeah it says the or it's like the omicron variant or something like that.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

But it's like, yeah, I love a pony. Pony Clara meme.

[A]

As do I. Yeah, yeah, they're all good. The Jamie Lloyd lighting the piazza in the hospital with the Shetland pony. It's. It's great.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Oh, but. But I'll post all those on Discord in. In the chat. So if you're listening to this and you would like to see them then, then I will be sharing them there so that everyone can see.

[A]

What a great way for me to say, if you haven't joined the Discord yet, guys, join the Discord. The link will be in the episode description. Also, I think at this point I will have announced the Patreon that we are launching. So you should be able to join the Patreon if you haven't yet. That's going to be. We were already planning out some of the exclusive content for that. I told Adam about some of the things we're going to be recording soon enough. He'll be on it. Podmother Allie Gordon will be on there. Rob Schneider, the theater lovers. It's going to be a bunch of fun people as well as my special Q and A's. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling if you like the podcast, five star rating or review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. It always helps with the algorithms. Adam Diva, who's closing us out today?

[B]

Um, I'm. Well, I'm kind of wanting to say because I know we've done Vicky Clark before and. Have you done Kelli o' Hara before? Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[B]

I think we have to do Sarah yeriarity Berry in Taboo singing Safe in the City, which sounds nothing like Light in the Piazza, but bitch, honestly, if y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

If anybody who's listening has never heard the Taboo cast album, it's great. There are some fantastic songs. But if you listen to that and Piaz next to each other and what Sarah's voice can do. Unbelievable that it's the same person. I wish we got more of her on Broadway.

[A]

Same.

[B]

She's incredible. And worth a diva play.

[A]

She absolutely is. You read my mind. That's who I wanted. And I'm glad that you read my mind. So that's it for this time, guys. Make sure to check us out for the next deep dive. Another musical about a mother ignoring medical advice next to normal, so. And another show that Sarah Uradyberry was in. She was the standby, I believe, for Alice in that show, so that's fun.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

She sure was. Oh, man, I would have loved to have heard her sing that.

[A]

Yeah, same Sam. All right, so that's it for this one, guys. We'll see you next time for next normal. Take it away, Sara. Bye.

[B]

Me?

[A]

Just let me go.