DOWNSTATE w/ Etai Benson

Summary

Broadway Breakdown: “Downstate” with Etai Benson

Podcast: Broadway Breakdown
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Etai Benson
Date: December 7, 2023
Episode Theme: “Problematic? – DOWNSTATE by Bruce Norris”

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Brief Overview

This episode focuses on Bruce Norris’s highly controversial play Downstate, a drama that examines empathy, morality, punishment, and trauma through the lens of a group of convicted sex offenders living in a supervised group home. Host Matt Koplik and guest Etai Benson engage in a frank, often explicit, unflinchingly honest discussion about the play’s provocations, its moral complexity, and the reactions it sparks—both in audiences and themselves.

"The best theatrical works should not leave you with answers. They should leave you with a conversation."
—Matt Koplik, [07:02]

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Episode Structure & Key Points

1. Introduction & Context ([00:29]–[02:38])

• Matt welcomes Etai, shares their long friendship and theatre camp background (“the Manor”).
• Introduce "Problematic?" series — examining shows labeled controversial or ‘problematic’ and questioning whether they deserve redemption.
• Why “Downstate”? Listeners requested it; both Matt and Etai found it to be “the ultimate conversation play” and “one of the great American plays.”
• Trigger warning: The show and discussion explore sensitive topics including sexual abuse, grooming, and trauma.

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2. What is Downstate? ([09:54]–[12:29])

• Plot summary:
  The play is set in an Illinois group home for registered sex offenders after their release from prison. A man named Andy, with his wife Emily, visits to confront his former abuser, Fred. The story unfurls to explore the lives and crimes of the home’s four residents—Fred, Dee, Felix, and Gio—and the lines between punishment, justice, and empathy.

“One of my favorite theater experiences in the last five years… I couldn't stop thinking about it.”
—Etai Benson, [03:08]

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3. Why is “Downstate” Controversial? ([04:27]–[07:08])

• The subject (pedophilia, sexual abuse) is inherently difficult; the play attracted internet outrage and political backlash.
• Some critical of the play’s apparent empathy for the offenders, or for a perceived lack of "comeuppance."
• Both hosts stress: Art should challenge and complicate, not “leave you with answers."

“Controversy around ‘Downstate,’ or Carousel, is that… the argument purports these things don’t exist. However uncomfortable it makes people, they are real.”
—Etai Benson, [06:20]

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4. Thematic Comparisons & Personal Resonance ([07:51]–[14:35])

• Matt draws parallels with “How I Learned To Drive” and his own experiences of grooming as a teen, and how these feed into his reactions to both Downstate and other works (even “Phantom of the Opera”).
• Discussion of how sexual trauma’s aftermath is both unique and universal: “Sometimes there are people who make you smarter and more sophisticated…but then, with a sexual component, you second-guess your own desirability.” ([18:47])
• Touches on the experience of seeing the play with family and the instinct to analyze trauma through art.

“Not everyone will get a chance to confront the people who have wronged them.”
—Matt Koplik, [17:54]

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5. The Characters & Their Offenses ([24:15]–[38:19])

• Felix: Has the least stage time but “commits the worst sins.” Later revealed he abused his daughter; Etai details the play’s slow, devastating build to that revelation.
• Gio: Presented with nuance; his “crime” is sex with a minor who had a fake ID (but questions persist about grooming and pattern).
• Fred: The “kindly” abuser, in a wheelchair—forcefully highlighting the empathetic challenge.
• Dee: The most complicated; had a long-term relationship with a teenage castmate (“Tootles”) when he was in his 30s and the boy was 14; grapples openly with his self-hate.

“The word ‘sickness’ comes up a lot in this play… it provides zero answers, because there are no answers.”
—Etai Benson, [38:47]

Notable Moment:
Felix’s confession ([37:55]) — “The bomb” is dropped when it’s revealed (through a single, chilling line from Ivy) that he abused his daughter, shattering any audience sympathy previously elicited.

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6. Victimhood and Empathy: Who Gets It?

([39:33]–[55:19])

• Norris’s intention: Explore (post-MeToo) whether society wants justice or vengeance, and “when is punishment enough?”
• The system’s blanket punishment for all types of sexual offense is probed—are Gio’s and Felix’s offenses truly the same? What about Dee?
• The victim's need to be believed: Andy’s story, his struggle for legal or social affirmation that he was victimized and that his life is “ruined.”
• Memory and the fallibility of trauma recollections (e.g., the moment when Andy must recall if Fred is circumcised—he cannot).

“My favorite works of art test your empathy to the extreme. ...In this play, both sides are right—and you cannot, as an audience, pick one side.”
—Etai Benson, [26:32]

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7. The Play’s Humor & Humanity ([21:18], [24:15])

• Dark, often uncomfortable humor weaves through tension.
• Memorable comic moment ([26:19]):
  Andy resumes his letter after an interruption—

  “Okay, where were we?”
  Fred: “You had your gun in my mouth.”*
  (huge audience laugh due to the whiplash in tone)

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8. Gray Morality & The Limits of Empathy ([54:33]–[90:16])

• Deep dive into how being a father has changed Etai’s personal reaction to the play: “Had any of them touched my child, all bets are off for me.” ([54:47])
• The play “tests the limits of empathy” and scrutinizes liberal notions of empathy—how far does it extend when the subject is despicable?
• Everyone—perpetrators and victims—sees themselves as victims in some sense.
• The play refuses to label characters as wholly “evil” or “good,” focusing on their humanity and complexity.

“All of us are victims in some way, and it doesn’t matter what they say or do after—the scale doesn’t balance out.”
—Matt Koplik, [36:46]

D’s withering line about Andy’s revisiting the trauma:
“Fred, I’ll say this for you, you must give one hell of a blowjob. It’s been 30 years and he’s coming back for more.”
—K. Todd Freeman as Dee, cited by Matt, [76:31]

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9. Artistic Craft and Moral Purpose ([99:41]–[102:21])

• Both hosts agree the play is not problematic, but timely and important—a drama that upsets moral purity, eschews easy answers, and instead “forces us to live entirely in the gray.”
• They worry about a culture (social media, current theater) increasingly demanding clear-cut morality and “safe” art, and see Downstate as a necessary corrective.
• The play is lauded for its construction (“not a line not necessary”) and emotional power.

“Sanitized art is scary to me. That’s why this is such an important piece of work.”
—Etai Benson, [100:00]

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10. Memorable / Notable Quotes

• “The best theatrical works should not leave you with answers. They should leave you with a conversation.” —Matt Koplik, [07:02]
• “Controversy around this, or Carousel, is that... the argument purports these things don’t exist.” —Etai Benson, [06:20]
• “He forces you to fall in love with [the characters], then drops these bombs.” —Itai Benson, [54:34]
• “Everyone’s broken in this play, and it’s a broken world that he creates.” —Itai Benson, [105:50]
• “Not problematic. This play is the opposite. This is the kind of play we need right now.” —Itai Benson, [102:21]
• “We’re living in a time where we’re more afraid of gray.” —Etai Benson, [95:10]

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11. Key Timestamps & Segments

• [02:31] – Introduction to Downstate’s plot and cast
• [03:49] – Trigger/content warning
• [09:54] – Play summary and breakdown of central event
• [24:15] – The play’s humor and audience reactions
• [37:55] – Felix’s confession (major bombshell)
• [54:34] – Impact of parenthood on the play’s effect
• [62:01] – Andy’s unreliability and the theme of “being believed”
• [76:31] – Dee’s devastating “blowjob” line
• [95:43] – Felix’s suicide — revealed
• [99:54] – “Is Downstate problematic?” final judgment

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Final Thoughts

Downstate is not prescriptive; it is confrontational, forcing the audience to swim in the uncertainty and discomfort of real-life moral ambiguity. Matt and Etai argue for the fundamental necessity of such plays, especially in an era seeking either escape or certitude. Their discussion balances insight, personal connection, humor, and respectful gravity on one of modern theater’s most explosive works.

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Recommended For

• Listeners interested in how theater tackles taboo topics and challenges empathy
• Fans of Bruce Norris, Paula Vogel, or tough, “gray-area” drama
• Anyone who wants to grapple with the questions: Can theater provoke without providing comfort? Is there such a thing as unforgivable art? And where does empathy end?

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Episode ends as always with a tribute to Sally Murphy, star of Downstate’s original Off-Broadway cast.

Transcript

[Itai Benson]

Sa.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history unt legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question Mark, covering shows that you're mad at and their possible redemption. I'm your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a dear friend, a Broadway actor. You might know him from his work in Company or the Band's Visit. You can see him at Papermill Playhouse doing Fiddler on the Roof.

[Itai Benson]

Fiddler on the Roof, the Irish version, I suppose.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Otherwise known as the David Levo 2004 version. Please welcome Itai Benson.

[Itai Benson]

Hi.

[Matt Koplik]

Hi, Itai.

[Itai Benson]

Hi, Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

How are you doing today?

[Itai Benson]

I'm okay. I'm very happy to be sitting with you.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm happy to have you sitting here with me as well. This has been a long time coming. Eta and I know each other from the Manor.

[Itai Benson]

The Manor.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how Ali Gordon.

[Itai Benson]

You brought up the Manor before.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yes. Ali Gordon and I now refer to it as the Manor. It's. Listen, you gotta talk about it every couple of days, otherwise it goes away. It's like fairies. You gotta.

[Itai Benson]

Have you seen Theater Camp yet? I haven't seen it.

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't. Okay, I will eventually. Everyone keeps telling me to watch. I'm like, I have Camp on dvd and I own a copy of Theater Geek or whatever that book was about. Stage Door. I'm like, I've done my due diligence. Must I watch Ben Platt pretend that he went to Stage Door? I don't think so. I don't need it.

[Itai Benson]

There's that documentary, you know, that they made while we were there.

[Matt Koplik]

We were. I'm in it.

[Itai Benson]

I'm in it as well.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I don't.

[Itai Benson]

No one watch it.

[Matt Koplik]

No one watch it. Itai. We are covering problematic shows.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And by problematic, I don't mean shows that are unfixable, like maybe a Candide or a Merrily. I'm not even talking about shows that I think have poor morals, but shows that have had some controversy surrounding them, some backlash, if you will. And what is the show that we're covering today?

[Itai Benson]

We are covering Downstate by Bruce Norris.

[Matt Koplik]

Fuck. Fuck.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. Off Broadway Breakdown.

[Matt Koplik]

Off Broadway Breakdown. Yeah. Sometimes cover Off Broadway. This is actually not going to be the first. The last Off Broadway show in this series, but I think maybe the only play. Unclear, but this is the first straight play for the series Downstate and I'm glad that this is it. I gave you the list of shows that we were looking into covering. You gave me a few of your choices back, and when you had Downstate listed in your group, I was thrilled. I was so thrilled.

[Itai Benson]

Well, I. I haven't gotten to attend the theater very often recently. I've had a lot of things happening in my life and some of which will come into play as we talk about this, this play. But this was one of the few that I felt I had to see. I had spoken to enough people who said, you must, must, must see it. So I saw. Absolutely wrecked me. It was one of my favorite theater experiences in the last, I don't know, at least five years. And it's a thing I couldn't stop thinking about. So when I even saw it on your list, I knew that I had to mark that as, I will gladly talk about this play.

[Matt Koplik]

I was very happy about that. So, full disclosure warning for listeners. Because of the subject matter of this play and because of how I tend to speak on this podcast, there's some subject matter that might be triggering for people. Sexual assault and abuse, grooming, things like that. But once we get over the content of my close friends on Instagram, we'll go, we'll start talking about the play. But no, it's. This is a very sensitive subject matter and it's handled in a way that I think makes it incredible theatrical drama, which of course made it fodder for Internet controversy.

[Itai Benson]

Well, I'm curious. I didn't. I mean, I guess I realized that the, the content of the play would be controversial or triggering for people, but I didn't know that the play itself was. That there was any sort of fire and controversy around it, online or otherwise.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, so the reason why this play was selected was twofold. One was it was requested by listeners.

[Itai Benson]

Good taste listeners.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, well, so the list. The. Pete, when I reached out to the people who choose to listen to this podcast, podcast and choose to follow me on Instagram, I said, you know, tell me the shows you find problematic or shows you would like me to cover for the series, even if, like, if you don't find it, but you know that other people do. So, you know, some shows were submitted and, and some I agreed with, some I didn't. And I tried to stick to the shows that had more than one submission and then I would ask people sort of their feelings behind it. So I think three people requested Downstate. One was like, I don't find it problematic, but I remember the controversy and then I forgot about the controversy, which is just, you know, stupid GOP politicians, like, finding out it. Just that it existed and being like, this is immoral, and how dare they? And then I wrote. Because I posted a review for it pretty soon after I saw it. And then, like, four months later, some troll found my review, and just, like, their one comment was, like, a play about pedophiles. Disgusting. And I was like, sure, yeah. No, absolutely. But, you know, there are many things that are disgusting.

[Itai Benson]

Well, what. What I. What bothers me when these. When a controversy like that happens. Obviously, this is from the gop. This is like, you know, sort of bullshit controversy. But it's. But even in. In one of your favorites, Carousel.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, we're talking about Carousel.

[Itai Benson]

Well, just for a second, just because I had to bring it up, because I know it's your favorite thing in the world.

[Matt Koplik]

And also, I did not bring it up. Everyone, each. I did.

[Itai Benson]

I did. I brought it because it is one of my favorite things.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Itai Benson]

And I think that a controversy around Carousel or a controversy around this saying, oh, it's a play about pedophiles, and you're. You're asking us to empathize with pedophiles. It's that. That argument, like, purports that these. These things don't exist.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

That, like, abused women don't exist, that pedophiles don't exist and aren't actual human beings walking on this earth. And however uncomfortable that makes people, it is. They are real. And choosing to sort of ignore that or cut it out does. Does no one any service.

[Matt Koplik]

No. The best theatrical works should not leave you with answers. They should leave you with a conversation. Yes. And.

[Itai Benson]

And this one is the ultimate conversation.

[Matt Koplik]

Fuck, yeah. Like, I wrote in my review last year, and I stand by it. I think this is the best American play since August Dosage County. And there have been some fucking baller American plays in the last, you know, 15 years. What the Constitution means to me. Fat ham, others.

[Itai Benson]

Well, the last time I remember being this gripped was Ruined. Did you see Ruins?

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't see Ruined. That's Lynn Nottage, right?

[Itai Benson]

Lynn Nottage. And it. It also wrecked me. And it was in a way, that I felt like, you know, it's. It's trite to say, but I felt like I'm no longer watching actors. I'm no longer watching a play. I'm inside of this, and I'm just seeing these people. But I would. I would agree with you. It is one of the great American.

[Matt Koplik]

Plays, and I Want to also connect this to another play that I love that I mentioned recently, just because, subject matter wise, it's there, How I Learned to Drive, which is another play, Pulitzer Prize winner, by the way, by Ms. Paula Vogel, who will be back this year in Mother Play. I know nothing about it, but it's vocal, so I'm there. But it's. Have you seen How I Learned to Drive? Do you know?

[Itai Benson]

No, I didn't get to see the last production.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, right. You were famously booked that season, so you couldn't see it.

[Itai Benson]

I was a little busy.

[Matt Koplik]

You were a little busy doing Sondheim.

[Itai Benson]

On Broadway, making out with Patti LuPone eight times a week.

[Matt Koplik]

What a goddamn delight.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Do you sometimes look back on your last couple of years and go, I've done some things, yes.

[Itai Benson]

In fact, I told them because I did actually kiss Patti LuPone eight times a week. But you would if you would miss it if you. If you blinked, because it happened in the TikTok sequence. But I remember telling the producers, like, well, if you had just told me this beforehand, I just would have done the show for free. But it is one of the great memories.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a. I'll bet she's a good kisser.

[Itai Benson]

Oh, yeah, she's good. She's not afraid.

[Matt Koplik]

She's Italian. She's not afraid of anything.

[Itai Benson]

Oh, yeah. Sicilian. Sicilian.

[Matt Koplik]

Sicilian, Sorry.

[Itai Benson]

Oh, I learned distinction.

[Matt Koplik]

I learned that from Sex and the City, actually. When Stanford meets Anthony, he goes, so your last name is that Italian? And he goes, sicilian. And Stanford goes, is that. Is there a difference? And there's a long beat and Anthony just goes, yeah. So I'll bet you that was based off of a conversation Michael Patrick King had with Patti LuPone. Certainly was absolutely so itai for my uncultured fucks out there. Oh, another thing that. Another reason why somebody submitted it. They felt that the pedophiles in the show, which, surprise, that's the main point of the show, they just felt there wasn't enough. I don't know if they said, like, comeuppance, but they just felt like there wasn't enough reckoning, which I think is important as a problem this person had with the play, because that's what we'll be talking about. But for the uncultured fucks, which is what I call people who listen to this podcast, what is Downstate about?

[Itai Benson]

Downstate is about. Is about a home for. What is it? It's not just pedophiles.

[Matt Koplik]

It's sexual.

[Itai Benson]

Sexual offenders who are registered sex offenders. And they. They are put by the state in a home because if they have nowhere else to go and they are zoned to live there, and it's essentially somewhat like a very important day in the life of these people. And chiefly it deals with a man who is coming to confront his abuser. One of the abusers lives in this home. And we open with a man, Andy, who is there with his wife. And he's coming to. He's done a lot of therapy and he has come to read a statement to confront and say everything he wants to say to his abuser, Fred. And then we go on from there. We learn about all of them, and some very harrowing things happen.

[Matt Koplik]

There's Dee, Gio and Felix, their Po Ivy, and then Gio's co worker Effie. And yeah, they all sort of intertwine and we learn sort of, we get a lot more information about exactly what it is each man in the home has done, what the penance that they had to pay afterwards. Obviously, they all went to jail for certain periods of time and, you know, live in this home together now and where they're at in their lives and how they view themselves and each other and, you know, the world at large. And I found out about this play. I didn't even know this play existed. I. I don't know what the. I know. I. What I was. I know what I was doing. I wasn't really thinking about theater at the time that I found out about this, but someone on Instagram reached out to me and they said, you know that Sally Murphy's in New York doing a play, right?

[Itai Benson]

I was gonna bring up Sally Murphy.

[Matt Koplik]

You gotta bring up Sally Murphy.

[Itai Benson]

I know she's your gal.

[Matt Koplik]

She is my gal. And they're like, she's in a play in New York. I was like, she is. And they said, yeah, she's in this play Downstate. I was like, well, I must see. And I got a TDF ticket, knowing nothing about it, saw it, had my mind blown immediately, told as many people as I could to see it. And then I know I got my mom to go see it. And then when my dad was in town, he asked if we could see it together. And I was like, I would happily see it a second time. That's the fucked up person I am that I'm like, not only will I see this play a second time, I'll take my daddy. But I mean, I also sat through how I learned to drive with my mommy. Uh, like. And I saw Spring Awakening at the original company when I was a plum 16 years old with my grandmother. Like this is just what I do.

[Itai Benson]

This is a pattern.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. I saw, I saw Barbie seven times because I had to take both of my grandmothers separately to see it. I say had to. I offered, I offered that arm willingly.

[Itai Benson]

What does it say about me that I saw tar like four times?

[Matt Koplik]

You don't believe in cancel culture. Yes. And you're just so enamored with lesbians. They're so far into you that you're.

[Itai Benson]

Like super, super, super with lesbians.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, listen, I get it. Cate Blanchett has the bone structure of a lesbian. It just makes sense, you know?

[Itai Benson]

You know what I mean? But I have no comment.

[Matt Koplik]

We move on. I have. So I've mentioned this on the podcast in the past and I remember I was texting you about this last night and I famously gave you no context for this. You're like, you'll have to explain yourself. But I said we would be talking a little bit about Phantom of the Opera.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, I'm very curious as the bridge between Phantom of the Opera and downstate Bruce Norris.

[Matt Koplik]

It's there. First of all, I, if you go back and listen to the Phantom of the Opera episode, I discussed this. I have my own past with sexual trauma, essentially just discovering years later after the fact. I think once I was towards the end of college just understanding that like I had been textbook groomed by a voice teacher. I've just, you know, three of knowing this man for four years. Halfway through the four years of just like slowly introducing the idea of him being a sexual prospect and like doing the whole gaslighting of like, oh, you're so intelligent, you're so special, you're so smart, you're smarter than your age, you're more mature than your age. And then waiting until I was 17 to do any. Make any move or make anything sexual and make it believe that I was, you know, making the choice and, and informed enough as a 17 year old to make those kind of decisions to be intimate with him, which I was. They were my choices. But again, the age difference, the dynamic, it just, it was no bueno. Should never have gone. And we talk about this with Phantom of the Opera because, hahaha. What is the main crux of that show but a gaslighting, gatekeeping, murderous voice teacher.

[Itai Benson]

But this is before they made him like fuckable. You mean you're talking about the original like conception of Phantom when it's Michael Crawford.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, except it's worse now that they've tried to make him fuck About. Because I'm like. Because I'm like, he actually shouldn't be a romantic lead. He's the villain of the show. He gets his, you know, redemption at the end just by learning that, like, no matter how awful he's been, there is someone out there who's willing to lend a helping hand, which ultimately makes him understand, like, the horrors that he has done. But that doesn't land when you have me, daddy, leading man, playing the role and, like, genuinely trying to get Christine sort of into the idea. I'm like, no, she should always be horrified. But what we learned from this experience and our connection to Phantom of the Opera is that I am an ingenue.

[Itai Benson]

Of course you can hit that note. I know you can.

[Matt Koplik]

I absolutely.

[Itai Benson]

I've heard it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, you have heard.

[Itai Benson]

I saw your bat boy.

[Matt Koplik]

You didn't see my bat. I know.

[Itai Benson]

I was gone already. Damn it.

[Matt Koplik]

You were gone. My bad boy is.

[Itai Benson]

But I know that your bat boy happened. And it's been talked about.

[Matt Koplik]

It has been talked about. Guys, I don't know how to explain this to any of you. I'm kind of a big deal.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. But only in a circle that's five feet wide.

[Itai Benson]

But you are a legend in that circle.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I will. Honestly, I knew when I did Bad Boy because I was the first. It was the premiere production at Stage Door, and I had gone all those years with you and all the other people who are far more successful than I am, and y' all wouldn't shut the up about Bad Boy. It was that. And, like, Urinetown were two shows that I was like, or. And last five years, they're like, when are they gonna do it, man?

[Itai Benson]

And I know. And isn't it funny that, like, you then look back and some of these shows, you realize later on and as an adult, you're like, oh, they're not all that good. Some of them are not very good. But, man, we love. We were so obsessed with them.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That's youth, though. And I love that. I mean, I don't know what the manor's like now. What I loved about the manor when we were there was that it was that sweet spot of we kind of got to be insane with the shows and roles we played.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, in no world should 16 year olds be doing follies, but I loved that we did it.

[Itai Benson]

I was Frederick in a little night music.

[Matt Koplik]

You sure were, bitch.

[Itai Benson]

I I with a drawn on mustache.

[Matt Koplik]

Girl, I unlike you and my bad Boy. I saw your Frederick. I loved that night music. That was the production that made me go, oh, I think this show is kind of perfect. Yeah, it was. So if that show was so.

[Itai Benson]

I will always be your Frederick.

[Matt Koplik]

You'll always be. Okay there, y'. All. In case you want to know why we're so obsessed with the manor, let me just spell this out for you. Of the productions that I've seen at the manor and who was in them, there was the night Music with Mr. Itai Benson. The Nine, starring Skylar Astin, with Shayna Taub.

[Itai Benson]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Soon to be Tony nominated for best score for Seth's and possibly more. But that's the one thing I'm willing to put like a thousand dollars on right now. There was also Grand Hotel was with Skyler. There was west side Story that I did with Shayna. We were both sharks. We don't talk about it all that much.

[Itai Benson]

I saw that one.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, because you were in the Sweeney that year.

[Itai Benson]

And Jeff Ward. Right, Wasn't he in that? He was director of Danny and the Deep Blue Sea, currently off Broadway.

[Matt Koplik]

Shut the fuck up. Yeah, yeah, he was. Our action stage door just has, you know, a deep bench of fucking cool people. And so. Yes. But I don't even know how we got here. We were talking about death state. Oh, and Phantom. All of this. Yeah. And trauma. We were talking about trauma.

[Itai Benson]

Right, right. Trauma, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which listen, everyone's got it in some form or another, right? And it's more a matter of how you handle it, how you reckon with it and how you move on with it. And not everyone is going to get a chance to confront the people that have wronged them. My groomer died during COVID and if I had to write a book right now, it would be he's dead and I'm amazing. But also our relationship was not necessarily that of the Phantom. It was more. It truly was more of the Mary Louise Parker and her uncle in How I learned to Drive where it's like only with distance. Do you realize the messed upness of the relationship? And yet that same person gave you so much in terms of like intellect and self esteem. But then at the same time, and we'll talk about it with Andy in particular, and sort of, yes, one of the major things that's him up with Fred. It also. It's a double edged sword with your self worth.

[Itai Benson]

You.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. Sometimes there are people in the world who make you smarter and more sophisticated and aware of the world. But then when there's a sexual component to it, it makes you second guess your own desirability as a Human being. Like, was this person ever interested in me as a friend or human being? Was it always just to kind of.

[Itai Benson]

Lure you in and abuse you?

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Itai Benson]

Have you ever read the Tricky Part by Martin Moran?

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Itai Benson]

Okay. You know Martin Moran, dit dit dat, dit dit. Of Titanic fame, but of course. And just incredible. Actor, artists, solo actor, solo artist. And he wrote of a play that won a bunch of awards, won the Obies and whatnot, and turned it into a book as well. It's called the Tricky Part and it's about his experience being abused at a Catholic summer camp when he was 12 and had a relationship with this older man who was a counselor at that camp for, for many years. And then later on, I think something like 30 plus years later tracked him down and confronted him and somehow learns to forgive him. And it is, it's very much in conversation with downstate and sounds like in conversation with some of your life experience. So I think it would be cathartic for you to read it.

[Matt Koplik]

I, I would love to read that. Yeah. The thing with me and the teachers, maybe it's just distance that I, it doesn't affect me nearly as much. I had a much more harrowing experience a year ago that wasn't as abusive as grooming or anything like that. It was more emotional and, and, and whatnot. But, and that has definitely left a deeper scar and has re triggered all of the questions that came about for me in college after the first experience. But again, it was very different kind of situation. Just the questions remain and we'll get to those questions as we get deeper into this play. Yeah, my listeners are tired of hearing me allude to bub. They're like, either say the name or get off the pile. Like, I'm not, I'm not saying the name, but y' all know that it happened. But what's so fascinating about this play also is like weirdly how funny it can be in a very twisted way. Yes, it's very marvelous. The D character, especially D, has some one liners out there. And also, okay, I also got to say this. I was at the Drama League Awards last season, which is, you know, a group that you pay to join and get to vote and you get a free meal.

[Itai Benson]

It's a luncheon, right? It's the lunch.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a nine hour luncheon. It starts at 11 with cocktails and snacks and then like at 1 they go, okay, we start the luncheon and the luncheon goes till five.

[Itai Benson]

Oh my God.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. Well, because like they put all the nominees on a dais and they have to all say a little something. And it's mostly supposed to be like, thank you so much for the nomination. I'm really appreciative. And then some people are actors and some people are writers, and it's very clear.

[Itai Benson]

Oh, no.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's very clear. But K. Todd Freeman was there. He was nominated for his performance in Downstate as D did not win. Neither did Stephen McKinley Henderson for between Oversight and Crazy. It was. That was where Emily Ashford won for Sweeney Todd for distinguished performance.

[Itai Benson]

Oh, they just give a performance.

[Matt Koplik]

They give a performance out of like, 90 nominees. And the year before it was Sutton. I don't remember who was the distinguished year before that. But, like, it's one of those things where you go, I don't buy this award because it's more of, we love you. You have a good career here. It's. It's a nice moment. Here you go. Whereas I'm like, you can't tell me that after seeing Downstate, K. Todd Freeman did not give the performance of the year.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I told him, as such, as he was leaving, and I just stopped him. I was like, I just need you to know that Downstate was my favorite play this year, and you in particular were just fucking. You destroyed me. And he was very nice about it. I think that's a play that not a lot of people come up to him about. They're usually like, I saw you in Series of Unfortunate Events on Netflix.

[Itai Benson]

Right, right, right. I saw you as Dr. Dillamond in Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

He was Dr. Dillamond for a while.

[Itai Benson]

I know. But I never crossed paths with him.

[Matt Koplik]

That's right.

[Itai Benson]

I wish I had. He's such. He's so brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

You were Bic.

[Itai Benson]

I was Bic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yay.

[Itai Benson]

I was Bic.

[Matt Koplik]

On the road and on Broadway.

[Itai Benson]

Yes, on Broadway. On the road. In San Francisco as well. In the sit down. That was my first gig.

[Matt Koplik]

Didn't you have a blog when you were doing Wicked on?

[Itai Benson]

I did. I have a blog.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe it's on your website.

[Itai Benson]

I, I. No, in San Francisco, I did a guest blog because I was telling a story. About eating. Yep. About. I. I ate a cheeseburger before the show that. That was not fully cooked and did not agree with me and I puked and I read it. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So I don't think we were in contact at the time. I think I just. I don't know where it was shared. Maybe it was Facebook or what. But I was like, oh, I'd love to hear about itai's experiences on the road. This will be a nice story. And then.

[Itai Benson]

Well, at that point, it was probably like LiveJournal or MySpace back in the stone age. I don't know, girl. Really?

[Matt Koplik]

We all gave up. Yeah, we gave up MySpace by the time you went off to Michigan. Come on, catch up with the kids. No, but I know. Very funny play. And the opening scene in particular really kind of sets the tone of the kind of laughs this play gets because you have Andy and his wife Emily, and I have some opinions about them. I have a new opinion about Andy that I didn't realize until I was rereading it for this episode in terms of. Yeah, well, let me get to it.

[Itai Benson]

Well, the humor is the darkest of the dark.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, because it's. As you said, it opens with Andy and Emily, Andy reading the letter that he's written to Fred, who is, you know, in a wheelchair.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. And played by. Geniusly played by Francis Guinan.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Itai Benson]

Who also provides some kind of. I mean, obviously it's intentional comedy. But he. This man who we understand very early on abused Andy in. When Andy was 12.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Itai Benson]

This man, Fred, who's in a wheelchair. Again, what do you picture when someone says abused a 12 year old? We see a monster.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And this man is. May as well be Santa Claus. He's so like, jolly. He's folksy. He's like a gee whiz. Golly, golly gee. Oh, and doesn't curse.

[Matt Koplik]

Always wants say the nicest things about people.

[Itai Benson]

And that I remember, like, that made me laugh because this guy is trying to confess this really dark, horrible thing and he's like, oh, I'm so sorry.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, here. No, keep talking. Especially because Andy. Part of Andy's letter is like saying to. It's like, part I want. I need to say to your face that you are fundamentally evil.

[Itai Benson]

Evil.

[Matt Koplik]

And then he keeps getting interrupted because Emily's phone keeps ringing. Cuz they're. They've like left their kid at the hotel with the babysitter.

[Itai Benson]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And you know, all these other things. And, and Andy, like, keeps on not retracting, but like he's. He's backpedaling a little bit. And every time, you know. Well, I think the first time the audience like laughed, there were two laughs early that were kind of chuckles. Everyone's like, are we allowed to laugh? First was when Emily's phone rang. And Sally Murphy gets on the phone. She goes, yes, all right, but what did we say about the whiny voice? And all the parents of the audience, like, I know that.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And.

[Itai Benson]

But then they start talking about video games. Tell them that they're Smash brothers on the. On the.

[Matt Koplik]

Daddy says they have Smash brothers on the tv.

[Itai Benson]

And then meanwhile he's. He's like telling this man that he's.

[Matt Koplik]

Evil and like how he wants. How he's always imagined killing him. And then like they hang up. And then the first real laugh the play got was. And he going, okay, where were we? And. And Fred goes, you had your gun in my mouth. Yeah, right, right.

[Itai Benson]

You had the gun in my mouth.

[Matt Koplik]

And he's like.

[Itai Benson]

Soft voice.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Cuz he's like, he's. And Fred is definitely, I think, the character that perfectly represents what the play is trying to do, which is like, it fucks with your sense of empathy.

[Itai Benson]

This is my favorite plays are plays. My favorite works of art are works of art that test your empathy, that test it to the extreme. This is like, you know, liberal America, we liberals, us on the left, we like to talk about empathy for the disenfranchised and empathy for this and empathy, empathy, empathy. And this is like the most logical extreme of how far will your empathy go. And the thing about this play is that it is somewhat like Clyburn park, which I loved when I saw as well. There are arguments that happen and it's the best drama because they are both right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And you as an audience member, we love to very easily pick a side. And you cannot, it is impossible to see this play and pick a side.

[Matt Koplik]

I think because in a lot of the arguments, for me, I find myself aligning a little more with Andy's morality, but finding that Andy sucks as a human being. Which. And. And that. But I think that's what makes it compelling because you want to stand with the people who you also like. Like something that Sarah Silverman said once on a podcast. Like, she had a friend who eventually got roped into, you know, alt right Nazi propaganda and then eventually found his way out. And she's like. The way he found his way into it was he was a very lonely man and found a group that liked him and accepted him. And there was warmth. And you people always go where the love is and.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And just want to go where people will accept them and like them and not judge them. And it's only until later that you realize, oh, like this is what I've got myself into. There was actually a play that guest Rob Schneider mentioned in a few a few weeks ago that I realize it's connected to Downstate because I was Reading a note from the artistic director of Playwrights Horizons when they produced it, and he mentioned this play. It's called Aunt Dan and Lemon by Wallace Shawn. Oh. And it was a very dark comedy in the mid-80s that the public did, and it was about a young. It was not a British woman who'd sort of in a memory play, reflects on her youth, where I think it's the 60s or 70s, whatever, but, like, it's sort of like a very twisted anti maim she's got. There's a family friend, Aunt Dan, short for Danielle, who is very eccentric, very smart, and very. To quote Diane Keaton and First Wives Club. Wonderfully verbal and says all these wonderful stories, fascinating stories. And it's not until 30 minutes in you realize that Aunt Dan is a Nazi sympathizer. Wow. Yeah. And like, post World War II, by the way. And. And her and Lemon's parents keep being like, no, no, no. Like this. And it's not just Nazis, like Mussolini and all this. And just very like, basically on the premise of, you know, all humanity is selfish and hateful and violent, and it's useless to pretend otherwise. And that's like, so Antenna's like, I appreciate that the nuts is just open about it. And Lemon's parents, like, no, this is terrible. Like, you got to be empathetic. And because her parents are not articulate, every time they get into an argument with Aunt Dan about it. And Dan always wins because she just knows how to talk and how to win Lemon over. So by the end. Yes. And so Lemon ends up kind of being a Nazi sympathizer by the end of the play. Yeah. In a very twisted way. And what Frank Rich said in his review was like, you know, the play is absolutely not telling you that Anton was onto something. That's not the point of the play. The point of the play is to show you how these things happen.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. Well, I'm. I'm so over everyone thinking that, like, the intention is, like, Matches the content.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Itai Benson]

You know that I'm. I'm so done with that argument. But what you mentioned about Aunt Dan and the reveal.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

I think Bruce Norris just nails that here, which is the dropping of the breadcrumbs.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And the like. He. The characters are so well written. They're so human that you are. You cannot not fall in love with them, you know, in a way. And then he drops these bombs. Felix, for example. We'll get there, but we can talk about Felix.

[Matt Koplik]

But before we do that, we gotta take a break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred. And we're back. That was a good break. If we're gonna get into Felix, we absolutely needed it that quick. Bre also have a little bit of ros.

[Itai Benson]

I need to be topped up. If we're about to talk about Felix.

[Matt Koplik]

Let'S not talk about hungry. I'm not going to top you off on. On camera. That's on only camera. That's on only fans. Itai no. So, yes, we have our four gentlemen. We have D, Fred, Felix and Gio. We've gotten a little bit of information about Fred. We haven't even gotten fully about Fred.

[Itai Benson]

We'll.

[Matt Koplik]

We'll get more about him in a second. And D as well, let's talk a bit about Felix because Felix, of the four of them, has the least amount of stage time and in my opinion, commits the absolute worst sins. Of the four of them. Yes.

[Itai Benson]

He is the most, I guess you'd say, deplorable of them of what he has done.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Itai Benson]

And he has. Is desperately trying to atone for what he's done. And you feel his. He. His anguish. I mean, I remember from the actor. I forget his name who played him, but he. I mean, he just. He just. Every time he appeared and he says very little. He also speaks a lot in Spanish and he prays in Spanish. But when he just enter, I think he enters the stage with, like, a snack or something. And then he. His room is behind this, like, accordion wall, and he just. You just see, like, a crucifix and a bed, and he just shuts himself and closes himself in. And, you know, this man is going through some shit. We don't know what he did, but we learn that he has, like, broken.

[Matt Koplik]

We.

[Itai Benson]

He has broken the. The. It's not parole, but he's broken, like, the. The parameters of what he's supposed to do. He's gone to the library. He's not supposed to go to the library. He's gone on the Internet. These men are not allowed on the Internet. Yeah, he's gone on Facebook. He has reached out to family. He's not supposed to reach out to these family. To this family. For specific reasons, we start sympathizing with him. He says his sister has cancer. He needs to. He's not allowed to leave where he lives, but he needs to go visit her, maybe. Can I Get permission to go visit my sister before she dies. So Bruce Norris is eliciting all of this sympathy for this man. Clearly he's done something terrible, but the man should be able to go see his sister who's dying. Right. And then he drops the bomb.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So it's also the tension of the scene because we have. This is towards the end of the first act. We begin with Fred in that whole scene, and then eventually Andy and Emma leave. I also just want to make something. Another moment where the audience laughs at that opening scene is after Andy finishes his, you know, letter. And Emily's just sort of all over him. She's like, have you said what you need to say? Did you get it done? Like, just very helicoptery.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And then. And then Fred's basically like, so if that's. And Emily goes, I wrote a letter. And both she and Andy are terrible writers. Like, Emily begins, her letter goes, I am a mother and a daughter and a niece and a sister and a cousin.

[Itai Benson]

And I'm like, but most of all, I am a mother.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

If I had to choo between the life of my husband and my child, it's very easy what I would choose. And her husband's sitting right next to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he's like agreeing the entire. Absolutely, absolutely. And she. And she goes even further. She's like, if there was a burning building, there'd be no question of who I would pick again. Like, someone needs to go in there and be like, emily, sweetie, you need a ghostwriter. But we move on. Eventually, their Po Ivy comes in to, you know, do a group session, information session. She, you know, she has 40 something other offenders that she sees on a weekly basis. So this is like their one weekly meeting. And you also already sort of get like the dynamic of those four men with Ivy. And it's clear that she pretty much despises all of them on a moral level. But there are some who make her job easier. Like, Fred makes her job easy. He's very. He listens. He.

[Itai Benson]

He's affable. He. He asks about her family. He clearly knows about her family.

[Matt Koplik]

And she gives him information which, you know, she doesn't have such contempt for him, obviously, you know, she knows what he did in that and hates him again on a more level for that. So he's not a friend by any means, but of the four of them, he's the one that she likes the most then probably D. Although he's a pain in her ass. And we'll get to the whole D of it.

[Itai Benson]

All.

[Matt Koplik]

And then Gio and Felix definitely are, you know, the ones that probably are the biggest thorn in her sides. Felix in particular, you know, he. He's hard to pin down. He always is holed up in his room. Geo. We'll get to Geo. Yes. But, yeah. So once they're done, Ivy says, felix, I need you to stay. Stay back. Everyone goes back. Like, you know, Fred has to go to work now. D goes into the kitchen. Gio's off to work as well. And she goes, felix, we have to talk. And she sets up a camera so you already know, you know something's going down. And she just begins very subtle questioning. Where were you Tuesday? I was at work. Okay, like. And she keeps on needling.

[Itai Benson]

It's a cross examination, 1,000%.

[Matt Koplik]

And she keeps needling him and you. And you're not sure what it is she's getting at until she mentions the library and the. And the Internet. Like you expect. The bomb you expect to drop is like, he went off and he did something terrible.

[Itai Benson]

He went to a playground. He went to whatever. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And. Or you know, and you don't. You're waiting for that and you just find out he went online. And he says, I just tried to book a flight to go to Texas to see my sister. She's dying. She's got cancer. And it's so fascinating reading the play and seeing the play, which is how. That's how it's always supposed to be. But I remember seeing it and being like, stop making this poor man cry again, like, playing with your empathy. And I'm reading it and I'm going, there's something he's not saying here. And it's not just that I know where the bomb is, but like, Felix every. All four, pretty. Basically all these men, except for Fred play the victim in terms of their lives and their wrongdoings, of what happened to them and. And you know, the punishment that they've had.

[Itai Benson]

Felix and Ivy sort of calls them.

[Matt Koplik]

Out for it every time.

[Itai Benson]

All of you are the victim.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's the thing of the whole play. Everyone's the victim. Everyone is a victim. Everyone is a victim in some way. And doesn't matter what they say or do after the fact, it doesn't balance out, you know, how wronged they've been. And when Ivy keeps needling Felix about what he did and trying to get all this information out of him because he first won't admit he went to the library, he plays dumb.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then he won't admit to going online. He plays Dumb. Eventually, like, he has to be forced to admit truths, and he's only saying, have the truth. And he's doing that thing that impulsive liars do, which is like, you know, they incorporate enough of the truth so they can believe the lie.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the lie can make sense, but he is still lying. And then the real bomb gets dropped, which is he sexually abused his daughter. How far is up for you to decide? But the line in which we. I won't quote the line, but I'll just say, like, Ivy's the one who. Who explains exactly what happened with one line. And all it is, is that Felix went on Facebook and contacted his daughter, essentially. And the reason why he wants to visit his sister, in his. In his words, is she's the only one of his family who still talks to him. She's the only one who thinks that there's good in him.

[Itai Benson]

She's the only person who doesn't hate him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Despite everything he did. And when Ivy says, you know, you. You know, you can't contact your daughter. You know this. He goes, I love my daughter. And she goes, you've got a funny way of showing. And he goes, I love my daughter, and God knows I love my daughter. And then Ivy has a line where she compares, you know, that love to the love her husband has with the dog.

[Itai Benson]

With a golden retriever.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And she goes, but there's something he doesn't do with the golden retriever that you did with your daughter. And if you want to know what it is, you can read the play. I don't want to say it on Mike. And it's just one line, and that is the bomb. And all sympathy you had for this man goes away, especially when you realize it's his daughter's 15th birthday. He's probably been in his home for the better part of a year now. This is post jail, so imagine how.

[Itai Benson]

Old, how young she would have been.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Exactly. It is.

[Itai Benson]

What. What horrifying. What the play does so well, too, is sort of reckon with the fact or ask the question of when do we see this as a sickness and when do we not? When is how. Again, it goes back to how far will your empathy go? Is this a sickness, a compulsion that these people can control or cannot control? And, yes, it is their fault, but it also isn't their fault. It's asking all of those. It provides zero answers because there are no answers to that. But the word sickness comes up a lot in the play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And the play also asked. So I was trying to Find some research on the play of its origins and what made Bruce Norris write this. I was one of the few people that was not as enamored with Clyborne park when it came out, I think, because by that point, it had won the Pulitzer. It won the Tony. Everyone was like, my God. So I thought. I was like, sure, it was nice. I'm a big Jeremy Shamos fan. So I was like. But with this one, I just. I think. I think this play is even more profound than Clybourne park and wasn't even a Pulitzer finalists, let alone the winner. Garbage Awards.

[Itai Benson]

All the awards. Come on.

[Matt Koplik]

Whatever. The flick won the Pulitzer. Garbage Mama. But the thing about it is, you know, as we've been saying, it plays with your empathy. Right. And. And it has no answers. But one of the other questions that Norris asks is, when is it enough punishment? Like, when has someone been punished enough? And the one thing I did find of him talking about this was, I think, when I was premiering at Steppenwolf, because this was a Steppenwolf original production. Production. Yeah. That then went to the national before coming to New York. And he said it was. It kind of started right after the MeToo movement. And he goes. And I'm not saying this because I have anything against me, too. He's like, I don't. I love the movement. He goes, but I recognize that after the 2016 election, there was so much anger in the country just of, you know, how we ended up here, and people were channeling that energy into anything, and, you know, a lot of really important movements were happening, but with the kind of vitriol that I started to question if they even wanted justice, if they just wanted vengeance. And so he goes. I was interested in that. He goes. And I didn't want to tackle me, too, because I found there was far too much importance and good there to really have a nuanced discussion that everyone could really question to go. So I really felt like, what's the worst situation? He goes, he's like, pedophilia or sex offenders. And the more he researched, the more he realized, like, it's. That is a part of the criminal justice system that, like, we have not only have we yet to fix, like, it seems we have no interest in fixing, like, what we've done is enough to a lot of people in the country, which is basically, you know, put them away, and then should they ever leave jail? Because a lot of. Not even sex offenders, but pedophiles in particular, a lot of pedophiles don't ever leave jail because they tend to get murdered while they're in jail.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. They are the top. The top target.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. It's like. And which is mentioned briefly in the play as well.

[Itai Benson]

Well, one of the things. One of the early scenes with. When Ivy. When we were first introduced to Ivy, she holds a meeting with all of the men in the house, and she explains to them that a new ordinance in the town has been passed and that they have now expanded the zone in which they cannot.

[Matt Koplik]

Be.

[Itai Benson]

They can't be present, so they can't. And the new zoning, the new lines here means that they can't shop at the grocery store that they shop at. And it also includes. Because it's close enough to a school, even though there's a highway between them and it's a school for mentally disabled children.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like. Yeah, it's like. It's like two feet within half a mile.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's a highway in between.

[Itai Benson]

And there's a highway in between. But. But the town decided that it's close enough that these men can't go shopping at the iga.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

So they now have to find a way to get to Big Lots. But there's no bus that will get them to Big Lots. They also don't have money. They can't afford Ubers. They can't. And. And again, it's. It's sort of institutionalized vengeance and punishment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And it's hard to say whether you can agree with it or not. It's. It's like you said, it's a problem that is too confusing to even approach. It's too confusing to even try to, like, advocate for. Who's gonna go and advocate for these people? But they are people.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

They are human beings. And that's what he's getting at.

[Matt Koplik]

To say nothing, by the way, of the. Of the dozen phone calls they get every day of just full death threats. Like, they don't. To the point they don't answer the phone anymore for the first act. The phone will ring from time to time, and they just never answer it. And, you know, that's one of the main. Many interruptions when Andy is trying to read his letter. In addition to people coming in and out of the home. That is both comical and frustrating. And then he learns in Act 2, and we'll get to why Andy's there in Act 2. But, you know, D says to him, oh, yeah, we don't answer the phone anymore. It's just always. It's always somebody threatening to kill us. And Then any time someone throws something through the window, like their window is taped up and he's like, what happened? There he goes, oh, Andy. And just imagine K. Todd Freeman, y', all, with the most dead pan, like flipping through a magazine saying like, oh yeah, that was a shotgun. And Andy says, a shotgun? Like, like was it through an act of anger? And, and he was like, well, I don't think it was a gesture of goodwill.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, yeah, that's the kind of humor.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he's like one, he's like, yeah, he's like, you know, once a year when we're very lucky, there's a burning cross on our lawn.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's true like you know, for everything that's already making their lives difficult, being the social pariahs and only. And only being able to find the most low paying jobs possible. The only reason they have this house is the like church nearby. Like it was a former community center for them that's dilapidated. So they like did a, you know, half assed attempt to make it livable and quote unquote, out of the goodness of their heart. And that's it. So like no one who actually lives around them wants them to be there.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. So I'm not surprised that it was sort of me too that that inspired this. Mainly because the way he, the way he deals with like the, the way the, the not only the law, but just our institutions, our reactions, our emotional reactions, the Internet especially, which we don't really get in this play much because they can't be on the Internet. But the way that, especially in the immediate fire of me too started sort of equating every, every case.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

Because of course, because it. There needed to be a change. But in this, each of the men who are living in this house have done very different things, but they are subject to the same, to a very similar punishment.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Itai Benson]

So you have Gio for example, who again he had sex with a minor. What he explains is that she had a fake ID that said she was 17, which would have made her legal. The state is not concerned with that. And again, it makes you question the system. Is that the same as a man who raped his own daughter when she was very young? I think most people would agree that it is not horrible as it all may be and we are forced to make those distinctions in this play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The thing with Gio is he has a sense of self importance and his own hatred of everything around him because he's also a very God fearing man which he has imparted onto Felix as well. And so he definitely, as you said, like, there is obviously a line between the two offenses, but there's also, I feel like there's a hint in there with Gio where it's like, if this is not a one time thing with him because he has his co worker, Effie, who is also in high school and we were meant to at first believe that they're just co workers. She picks him up, you know, drives in there, she's got her own deal, but, you know, she comes back to their house to have pizza with him, possibly play bridge with him and Felix later. But like they go into his room later and when they're confronted with the idea that like they're hooking up, they go, ew, no. That we would never do that. How dare you. But it's also, like, you're not going in there to talk about the weather. You're going in there probably not.

[Itai Benson]

And like, are we watching him grooming her?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Or, or like, you know, if. Is the. Is the woman, the young woman that he went to jail for, was that the first woman? Were there others before her? Is this, you know, does Geo tend to go for underage girls? Is it truly the, like dark side of Matthew McConaughey and Days and confused of like, he gets older, they stay the same age and he keeps going for that. Again, that's something that I know in my own experience many years later. And I can't ask this question now because the man's dead. Deader than Barbara Bel Geddes, everybody. And if you get that joke, you listen to the first episode with Rob Schneider. But you know, you, you always question if you were the special case or if you were one of many and most plays that deal with this kind of subject matter. You. There's some information given to ease your mind with that. Like with Fred, you know that Andy was not the only one. There was another boy. There could have been others, but we were made to believe it was just those two. How I learned to drive. You find out that Little Bit's not the only family member that her uncle ended up abusing. Gio, who knows? I feel like Norris is implying that this was not an anomaly. This was a regular occurrence with him. And it's sort of happening again with EPI Felix also. Who knows? But, you know, that is, again, that's the great area that I love about this plane where it sort of lives. Yeah, yeah. The Geo also, I know it's. It's crazy. Like, there's, there's this undercurrent of violence that you get from Geo every time he speaks because he and d. Butt head so much and he has this. This anger and this hatred of everyone else in the house and this importance about himself. And then ultimately when everything does turn violent at the end, he's not the reason yet. He is the one that gets dragged away.

[Itai Benson]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. I don't know. It's. It's. It's just a very fascinating, fascinating thing.

[Itai Benson]

But even his, like, there's a. There's. There's a threatening menace about him. And even the way he talks to this, this woman, Effie, you can see that there is some malice towards women. And. But also then when he sees Andy, he does this big code switch and he becomes, you know, he sort of. He thinks that Andy is there for financial purposes. He doesn't really know who Andy is.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, he has no idea.

[Itai Benson]

But he assumes. He sees this like, well, to do white man and he thinks he's with like the bank or something. He thinks he's there to deal with Fred's financials. And so he starts kind of pushing himself as like, I have these ideas. I'm an entrepreneur. I work at the Staples currently. His whole, like, his language changes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And it's fascinating, but even in that he's so pushy and so there's even like a threatening in. In those conversations where he's being really polite.

[Matt Koplik]

I wish I. I'm simply too wired, slash buzzed to look through the play right now. Like, if every time he's. I mean, he speaks in over, he. He overspeaks the entire play. But with Andy, you're right, it is very specific because it is. There is no violence or anger in there. It is very kowtowing. And he is exaggerating his vocabulary not to show off any kind of intelligence, but to overplay his hand of who he is and where he's at and where he's going. Like, basically the way he just describes it, like, he counts inventory at Staples. That's what he does.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And the way he. He like, those words were like, what, four words, five words. He can. He takes that and makes like 30 words in a sentence, which actually, when you do that, it. Act, it shows less intelligence because.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. Well, then we also learn through Effie that he's a terrible employee.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

So his whole, like, it's, it's. You realize he's just a bullshit artist.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Itai Benson]

And he's doing anything he can to like, to like, change his position and get out of his situation.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because all he hears, as you said, all he hears about Andy is that he works at a bank, which isn't even true. Like, basically, Andy is like a wealth consultant is what he. What he won't say because he's saying, like, I'm helping people. And he's like. And he admits, like, yes, my clientele tends to be wealthy. It's like, yeah, you're not actually helping people. You're helping the rich get richer. Which, like, if that's what you do, that's what you do. But just.

[Itai Benson]

But even that, he.

[Matt Koplik]

He.

[Itai Benson]

He. He tells about it in terms of his trauma. So he talks about how well I lost. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Let us put it.

[Itai Benson]

Is that a pin?

[Matt Koplik]

That is a pin. I have a whole thing I want to talk about with Andy. I've got a chapter, baby. But with Gio. Yeah, no, he's like, there's a joke in there somewhere where he's talking to andy. In Act 2, when Andy comes back and he's bullshitting about, like, his plans for the future and, like, the company he wants to make and. And. And how he's already figuring out the, like, growth for the future and with the. With the product that he'll make. And he goes, okay, great. It's like, what's the product? And Gio's like, haven't thought of that yet.

[Itai Benson]

Right, right, right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

It's so funny how he thinks Andy's like Tim Cook, and Andy is, like, Tim Cook's accountant. He's not actually. You know, you can't actually help him other than maybe, like, give him a couple hundred bucks.

[Itai Benson]

But he said he's a pusher. He's scrappy. He's. He's really doing whatever he can.

[Matt Koplik]

He's a pusher, Katie. He's a pusher. What is something you would like to note on with downstate? You have. You have notes there. What's something I do well?

[Itai Benson]

Well, this is a personal note.

[Matt Koplik]

Please don't.

[Itai Benson]

Is that my experience with this play changed massively between when I saw it and when I just reread it, because when I saw it, I was not a father, and now I am a father. And reading it as a father is a completely different experience because I now have this child that I'm obsessed with who drives me nuts. He's five months old. But you. You. You have this child, and you are changed molecularly. I can. I can feel even when he's screaming at me, when he's screaming in my face. And I. I'm just saying, go the fuck to sleep. Please go the fuck to sleep. I can feel in my blood and in my cells that I will do anything for this creature. I will die for this creature. I will kill for this creature. I will do anything to. To keep this little guy safe. And so reading. Reading some of these descriptions, and they're very. They're very light, actually. They don't. You know, they're. They're. They're crass sometimes, especially when D says. Says some things.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

But, you know, it doesn't go into, like, great, great detail, but I can't help but imagine, what if someone did that to my kid?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And as. As, again, testing the limits of empathy, I would like to think that I've seen this play. These characters are human. They are. They are like, you know, he forces you to fall in love with them, then drops these bombs. But had any of them touched my child? All bets are off for me.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Itai Benson]

I can't pretend like I am so morally pure that I wouldn't seek vengeance.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And revenge. And the idea of vengeance really, really hit me this time in a way that I understood theoretically when I saw the play. But when I read it, and with this new experience of being a dad, I. I mean, it's different. Andy is talking for himself, not for his child. But, like, he. Andy also is a new father in the play. Relatively new, or. No, no, not that new. Oh, no, no, no.

[Matt Koplik]

Right. His kid is like seven or eight.

[Itai Benson]

No. But he says that he started having panic attacks when he had a child.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, yes. Well, it's. It's very unclear with Andy. And this is again, part of the whole chapter of him.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's unclear when he told Emily about what happened to him because he only started going to group therapy, survivors group therapy, like, a year prior or something like that. Like, it seems as if he kind of came to the reckoning within the last year. And he says in his letter, once I. My child was born, then I, as you said, like, I started having these panic attacks, something sort of latent within him that has kept him up at night alone and as he has said, like, has destroyed my life. Like, you know, Fred has destroyed my life. And. Well. Yes.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So. Okay. So. So I think this is a great.

[Itai Benson]

Actually, talk about this.

[Matt Koplik]

This is a great transition into Andy. This is what I love about it, by the way. So Andy is early to mid-40s, let's say married, supposedly happily, but who knows with a kid, a good job, has money, has a, you know, very nice car, has all the new gadgets, all these things. And Norris is very clever about subtly hinting for act one and the first half of act two, like, just how stable Andy's life actually is and the comforts that he has that is in direct contrast to these four characters. When Emily reads her letter and says, how do I explain to my child why Daddy is sad sometimes? Why he'd rather sit in the dark than play PlayStation? And I'm like, you didn't. You didn't have to say that. You say, why is Daddy that sometimes sad sometimes? Why does he, like, you know, walk away rather than play with me? But no, they have a PlayStation, probably the newest one, connected to a TV screen that's no. 4K.

[Itai Benson]

They bring up his iPhone X a couple of times, which was the newest model at the time.

[Matt Koplik]

It was. And then the Audi, whatever he's got, like. And they end at one point towards the end of the play when all shit hits the fan and Emily has to be there to sort of pick up Andy because Andy's been detained by the police. And she's shouting like. She's like, how much longer are we supposed to be here? I've got a child in a hotel with no one with him but a babysitter.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. And I'm like, such a good.

[Matt Koplik]

Why. Yeah. To which I'm also. And her name is Maria. Like, someone that they clearly have known. So I'm like, it's your nanny. You have a nanny.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's something that I know Dax Shepard has always said on Armchair Expert. Like, when Monica, his co host and friend, like, started being in their lives, she was essentially their nanny. And because he came, he grew up poor, he always was uncomfortable calling her that, especially also because, like, she became their friend and there was like a point of contention. He was on a talk show at one point and, like, said the babysitter. And Monica was like, I'm not your babysitter. He was like, I don't know what it is. Like, I've got the weird word about the word nanny. Well.

[Itai Benson]

Well, I can tell you right now because my. My wife and I, we are about. This is a shameless plug. We're about to play opposite each other at the Paper Mill in Fiddler on the Roof.

[Matt Koplik]

I plugged you an hour ago. Itai. It's not shameless.

[Itai Benson]

Oh, great. Well, it's not shameless if you plug me, but if I plug myself, it's pretty shameless.

[Matt Koplik]

Don't shame people's only fans, Etai.

[Itai Benson]

Anyway, so the thing, the reason I brought it up, the reason I Brought it up is that we are now dealing with. This is the first time we are both working while having a child in our lives that we have to keep alive. And childcare is fucking expensive.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure is.

[Itai Benson]

It's like it's gonna eat up half of what we are earning for this job. I mean, it is. It's wild. So anyone who has a nanny or a night nurse or. Or like, constant babysitting immediately, you know, oh, they got. They got money.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they. They got money. And first of all, I also. Whenever you guys have like, your first, like 10 out of 12 or whatever, I. I dare Sosha to go up to the director and be like, how much longer do we have? I've got a child at home with no one with him but a babysitter. Like, I just. I. With all the gumption in the world.

[Itai Benson]

I'll do it. I'll do it.

[Matt Koplik]

You can do it. Holding her Birkin bag, whatever the. Like, she. Emily's also, like. She's a yoga instructor. It's this whole thing.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's all the things on social media that you. If they were not dealing with the trauma that Andy's dealing with, you would see them on social media and you would roll your eyes at them like, they are that well off white couple.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Andy. So as we sort of discussed when Andy was 12. 12 or 13, they. They have. They have flipped back and forth on the age once or twice. I'm going to say 12. I think at one point, Dee and Fred said 13. But, you know, whatever. Andy was abused by Fred, basically. You know, Fred performed a sexual act on him as his piano teacher. And we also learned that Fred did the. Did the same thing to a younger student, Tommy. Tommy, who and then made Tommy perform the same sexual act on him, but didn't do it to Andy. And when Andy and Emily are first there, Andy has this contract that he wants him to sign, which is not actually legal. It's basically from therapy of, you know, you didn't admit to everything you said that you actually did in court. I want you to admit to it now and sign it. And, like, that will give me my closure, which is already proving to me that Andy's group therapy is because there's no one thing that gives you closure. You have. Closure comes from you. Like, you have to decide to close that chapter at some. At some point. And who knows if Andy has always been this way, if it's been triggered, you know, but he comes back in Act 2, quote unquote, having forgotten his phone, and he Comes. Act two opens with Andy and Dee alone. While Fred is at work. Andy has his phone and is sitting there watching a game. You eventually learn that he has lied to his wife about where he's at.

[Itai Benson]

Yes, that was. That's the. One of the first big, big clues as to the nature of their marriage. Because he. He picks up the phone, and it's clearly Emily, his wife, on the other line. And he says, oh, yeah, no, I'm at the bar. We're just watching a game. Yeah, there's shame there, but there's lies.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And it makes you immediately start to question, oh, is he an unreliable narrator, an unreliable victim here?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And that will come into play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, also because. So, you know, they leave because of all the hullabaloo. And then when Ivy's there, there's a major red flag when in the middle of their meeting, she hears a phone, and she goes, what? Whose phone is that? You're not supposed to have a cell phone phone. And they realize, oh, this is Andy's phone. And Fred's like, oh, I'm sure he'll come back for it. And Fred goes off to work. And so Act 2 begins many hours later, and it's Dee and Andy alone, and Andy's watching the game on his. On the. On the couch, Andy. And Fred's not there. Fred's at work. Andy could have just come, picked up the phone, and gotten the. Out of there, but he sticks around and as you said, lies to Emily, says to her, like, oh, he wasn't home. Yeah, I got it. I'm just at the bar now. I, like, I. I want to decompress, and I'll. I'll probably be home late. I won't wake you. And Andy and Dee have this very long conversation about child rearing, about marriage, about D's own relationship that got him into. I say relationship because that's what D calls it. There's. It's. That's a whole other conversation, which we'll get to, because D, again, is a whole chapter. Yes. But, you know, Andy keeps talking in circles about his own life, his own child, the trauma that he has felt. And he keeps centering everything back towards him. It's not about, you know, justice, as we were talking about. It's not even about vengeance. It's just about, like, legally declaring Andy was the victim. And he wants everyone to know. He wants that to be made certain his life is destroyed and that.

[Itai Benson]

And that he be believed.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, that. Because all he said, he. There's a line where he Says, he goes, no victims ever lie. All victims tell the truth.

[Itai Benson]

All victims tell the truth.

[Matt Koplik]

And our memories are crystal clear. That's the other thing, because he says, I remember. He goes, I remember everything about that moment vividly. And again, this is where we're talking about him being unreliable narrator. Eventually, we learned that Andy was in a particular spot in his life when Fred abused him. His father had died rather recently. He was a sensitive child. He clearly had grown to love Fred as a mentor and as. And as a friend. Fred had told him that he was special, that he had a gift, which Fred very earnestly says, like, you were special. And then what makes Andy even angry, he goes, you said the same thing to Tommy. He goes, you were both special.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like you were both prodigies at piano. What do you want me to tell you?

[Itai Benson]

Not only that, he says, why did you lie? Yeah, why did you lie to me? You said you said it to him too. I think I. Yeah, I like, wrote that down at some point. And yeah, you said I was special, but you. So you said the same thing to Tommy. Why did you lie to me? You told him the exact same thing.

[Matt Koplik]

And Fred does. And Fred's answer is, no, that wasn't a lie. You both were special. Now, here's the thing. It's because Tommy's also important here. We learn a little bit about Tommy because Fred actually knows a bit what's happened to Tommy in his life, whereas he's known nothing about Andy. Andy contacted Fred.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

After many years, he finds him online and makes it a point to reach out, writes him a letter, finds out where he lives, all these other things, and not only does that. Drives down to see him, comes back again and waits around for him. Tommy has probably made no contact with Fred, but Fred has been able to learn about what's going on with Tommy. Tommy now lives in Paris and has a husband, which Andy wants to make clear. Tommy also got married to a man.

[Itai Benson]

To a man.

[Matt Koplik]

To a man. It's. From all accounts, it seems that Tommy has been able to live with the trauma and not have it define him. Has been able to move on in, to an extent, as far as one can and live the best life that he can. And a true life underline a true life, because Tommy is queer. I never picked up on this when I saw the play. I picked up on this when I read it. I wonder if there is a queer component to Andy's sexuality that is just fully squashed because of the assault that happened to him at that age. And then him just choosing never to.

[Itai Benson]

Like that maybe would have flowered if.

[Matt Koplik]

This not had happened.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's hard to say because again, having read Marty Moran's book and he is a gay man, but he also talks about men who are also abused by the same person as kids, who marry women and have children and were decidedly heterosexual. It's so hard to say, but it's definitely hinted at. And his. And I think the key here is that there's envy, there's jealousy. Of Tommy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

Of. Of.

[Matt Koplik]

Of.

[Itai Benson]

Of why. Why? I thought you loved me. What Andy wants is love.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, and so this is. Okay, so this is where I actually will get a little explicit just because it's important here. According to the records and Fred and D, when Fred abused Andy, what it was was he performed fellatio on Andy. Andy claims that then Fred made him perform fellatio on Fred, which Fred said, that's not true. I made Tommy do that, and I admitted to that in court. And that's. That's what happened. And Andy keeps saying, no, you made me perform oral sex on you. And I remember every detail. Detail. And D. And D says, okay. He goes, I help Fred in the bath every day. Been doing it for years now. He goes, so tell me if you remember every detail. Crystal clear, as you say, is Fred circumcised? And Andy can't answer.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, And I think in the. In the stage directions, it says he doesn't know.

[Matt Koplik]

He doesn't know. And there he. That whole combustion in his head leads to a myriad of questions that I don't think Andy's willing to look at at the moment. So the question is, was he merely conflating? Merely. But was he conflating that trauma with Tommy's trauma? Was there a part of him that was jealous of the fact that Tommy's trauma went to an extent that his never did, that maybe he secretly wanted, not with Fred, but with another boy. These are things to ask, and they're awful, disgusting questions when you put in the context of a child. This is why I think everyone should also watch Big Mouth on Netflix, a wonderful sex positive show that asks all of these questions in a healthy manner at a time when we all could have really used it. You know, 12 to 15 is a very odd time because we also look at 12 as more innocent an age than it actually was.

[Itai Benson]

No. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yes, you're right. We do see it that way, but it is not. When I think back on what kids were doing in middle school.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. And just saying outwardly, like, I was very innocent at 12, just because I didn't do anything. I wasn't looking at porn or anything like that. And I was also grappling with my own sexuality. I. I knew very clearly I did not like girls the way that other boys liked girls. But I didn't know what that meant yet because I wasn't truly thinking sexually yet. The boys around me were talking about that, like, would make people blush. And again, this was sixth grade, so it's not as if, you know, all American, humble apple pie kids are riding on their bikes being like, what, sex?

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. No, no. Yeah. It's not like Andy Griffith, like, yeah, Opie or whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Because I'll tell you what, Ron Howard on that set, probably getting some in real life, that's what you learn from all these tell alls. Right. Like these kids in Hollywood on the sets of these wholesome shows. Like, they're like, yeah, Then I went to my trailer and banged a couple of hookers. You know, I was only 11. My stamina was building. And it's like the. Do you.

[Itai Benson]

Do you watch? It's always funny. Have you ever watched it?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, sure. I mean, I haven't watched it in a while, but I watched up until, like, season. Season 13.

[Itai Benson]

Well, there is. There is an episode that it's. I mean, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, with Dennis and the librarian.

[Itai Benson]

And. Is it the librarian? Is it. Is it, though? I thought it was a teacher. Maybe it's a librarian who, like, they found out was an abuser, and then they're jealous. They're like, well, why. Why didn't he ever.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, that was the coach. Yeah, the coach.

[Itai Benson]

The coach. Yeah, it was.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it was the McDoyles. Is that their name? The McPoil McCoy? They. They claimed that a coach abused them. And the other guys, not Dennis, Mac and Charlie are like, I think Charlie was abused.

[Itai Benson]

And he's like, well, I'm cute.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I was a cute kid. Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

They're, like, jealous. They're jealous. And it's exactly done in a crass, hilarious way. But, like, the actual truth behind it is in this play, too.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, because then you find out that Dennis actually was like, all right. That have statutory rape. Like, Right. Because Dennis has a hashtag written down every sexual encounter he's ever had. Like, in a very steamy graphic novel sort of way.

[Itai Benson]

Right, right.

[Matt Koplik]

And he describes the day he lost his virginity to the school librarian, who was like, 55 when Dennis was 15.

[Itai Benson]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're like, girl, you got statutory raped. And Dennis is like, what? No, she, she was a Mrs. Robinson. She just seduced me. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. This is a 40 year age difference. Like, this is not what you think it is. You were. You, you were assaulted, dude.

[Itai Benson]

But yes, I.

[Matt Koplik]

And It's Always Sunny is also a great show in that respect because, like, they do tackle this kind of shit, but because all the main characters are such deplorable.

[Itai Benson]

They're so awful and they never change and it's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, they don't accept. Yeah, they never change. They don't ever accept the hardships of their mental states or their situation. And it's, it works in a lot of ways. And they're also just such good actors.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, they're, they're great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When Mac and Dennis move to the suburbs and, and Mac is like, you don't hear that beeping sound, news flash, hassle. I've been hearing it the entire time. Then why don't you say any?

[Itai Benson]

Because I hate you. But what's her name? Katie Olsen is the secret weapon.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, sweetie.

[Itai Benson]

Absolutely, sweetie. She is maybe the funniest of them all.

[Matt Koplik]

She's amazing. Anyway, anyway, Andy.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Andy's, Andy's sexuality, something that I've. I always assumed that like, repressed homosexuality was something that really only happened in the Midwest with, you know, certain people of certain religions. I've since learned that it happens everywhere of people of any walk of life. With Andy and that, and that whole storyline, the question for me has always been like, when did the problems actually start? I feel like there's a more interesting narrative for those two where they meet. It's nice, it's sweet, it's wholesome. Like they're able to kind of make it work for a while and then somewhere when they maybe got in too deep, the problems arose. When those problems happen and they just get worse and she eventually learns what happened to Andy in his youth. That's the answer, though. That's the, that's the answer to our problems. It's because this happened.

[Itai Benson]

It's not because you need to go deal with it. I mean, I would not be shocked if she's the one who said, you need to join this group, this therapy group, and then you need to like, you know, you need to go. And, And, Well, I mean, she doesn't really want to be there with him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she says to him, I didn't want to be here in the first place. I'm sure she. I, I do Believe she's one who's like, find a therapy group.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, and then that'll fix it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then. But also, like was one was I. I'm sure even though she didn't want to come, she probably did insist on being there with him. Like, you're not, you're not going alone. And part of it is, you know, I'm your partner, I'm here to support you. But it's also like, no, like I'm, I'm always with you. I, you know, remember like they bring their nanny with them to watch the kid so that way they can do this together.

[Itai Benson]

And she's also like sort of policing him as he does it. Yeah, but. But it's what's great. And you know, like the best plays, these are all tiny hints that are never explicitly stated as far as, like, we don't get a history of their relationship. We don't know. We have to fill in those blanks. And they can be filled in in any which way. You know, especially if you are putting on this play and rehearsing it. You could talk for hours and hours about their history and that'll inform their performances. And I'd be fascinated to know what they came up with, what those actors came up with. Let's call Sally.

[Matt Koplik]

I would love to. Are you kidding me? I now have so many 6 degrees of Sally Murphy in my own life. And I have met her, but I, like, I don't personally have any of her information.

[Itai Benson]

I did a one day table read that she was there for and I, I geeked out.

[Matt Koplik]

As well you should have. She's. She's the original princess of man of no importance. She's very important to this world. We talked about Andy a little bit. There's. There is a line that D has which will eventually translate into D when all the hits the fan. Not literally, but kind of when Fred comes back and Andy, you know, has his second reckoning with Fred and, and ultimately doesn't want forgiveness. He doesn't want anything other than just. He doesn't even want vengeance. He basically just was like, I came back to like stick the flag in the land of my victimhood. I want it legally established. And we have this circumcision moment, which is there are certain moments in theater when like an entire audience just goes. And when D asks that question, everyone just goes.

[Itai Benson]

Gut wrenching moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But it ultimately leads to eventually Andy freaking out because Dee says a line that I gotta tell you, when he said it, I was secretly thinking it myself. But it was one of those things. It's one of those things where, as a gay man, I'm sure, as Etai, you have these things, too. We're all human. But I know with gay men, like, we. Our bread and butter is always, like, saying the scandalous thing. That's what people expect of us. And so my brain always goes there. There was a moment, like, you know, when the whole point of the oral sex and Andy being there and keep coming, keeping on coming back. I had. Yeah, I had. I had the thought. I had the thought in my head, and I was like, oh, that's. That's twisted. But, like, I'm kind of thinking it.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, but he'll never say that. They'll never say that out loud.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly.

[Itai Benson]

And then he does.

[Matt Koplik]

And then D says that, which makes Andy freak out, which is essentially, you know, D going, I. I. Do I quote it, or do I just sort of imply quote it? Okay. As Andy keeps going on and on and on, and then D just sits there. And Dee has been over it this entire show, and we have to talk about D. But D says to Fred, knowing what he's about to say and the meaning behind, he goes, wow, Fred, I'll say this for you, you must give one hell of a blowjob. It's been 30 years and he's coming back for more. That's.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, that is the line.

[Matt Koplik]

It is the line.

[Itai Benson]

The line. And. And it does get to, like, the core of Andy. There is. Is. You know, he even, you know, he de. Implies that, like, oh, yeah, you forgot your cell phone. In quotes. Forgot in quotes. You forgot it. Yeah, you're going to forget it again. And he almost does. And it's like, is his forgetting at this unconscious thing? Is he. He's still pulled back. But the question is. Again, questions, questions. The question is, is it like, is it intentional or is he always also under the. Like, under the control of this man and this trauma that happened to him? Yeah, but what Bruce Norris is getting at, I think, because he doesn't. He doesn't let anyone off the hook.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Itai Benson]

Same thing with Clyburn Park. He did not let anyone off the hook, is everyone's obsession with their trauma. And like you said, in terms of Tommy, he's learned to live alongside it without letting it define him. But we are in a time where our trauma defines us in many ways, and we are supposed to lead with it.

[Matt Koplik]

Because you're not allowed to have an opinion anymore unless you've had trauma. Yes. Or either say your opinion doesn't matter unless you've had trauma to back it up.

[Itai Benson]

And trauma. Sometimes, sometimes we feel because we have been traumatized that we have carte blanche to be assholes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And that is a really complicated thing to talk about. And he talks about it in a brilliant way through Andy that he's so. I mean they're all see themselves as victims, but he is so obsessed with his victimhood and Dee calls him out for it.

[Matt Koplik]

Emily's a victim by being married to a victim.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

It's.

[Itai Benson]

It's so she's victim by proxy.

[Matt Koplik]

She's like, yeah, it's self righteous. And again. And D says to him, like, you keep talking about how your life is ruined. Like, say that again to a man who's on food stamps. As you talk to Fred who's in a wheelchair because when he went to prison someone broke his spine.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And now like has to in a bag and is trying to have like stiff upper lip about it and like finds the, the joys of Nutter Butters. But then there's also other things about Fred where you question like just how much of Fred is reformed and how much of it is still the sickness being in there. How much of him is his own blindness. Because you know, Fred talks about Chopin and the, and the memory, the beauty of the music. And then you find out that the reason why he started playing it after Andy left the first time is because that's a piece he taught Andy. And when he brings it up to Andy, like Andy's pained by it. And Fred can't understand immediately why maybe this isn't the best idea to talk about like his teachings of him. To him of Chopin and all these things.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, yeah. He's, I mean, he doesn't allow himself. Also, Fred is not allowing himself to really like reckon with the darkness. He has to cover it up in folksy rose colored, like seeing the good in everything.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And well, I mean, because with Fred, he does, he says, I do. I feel awful about it. I reckon with it. I. I know about it every day. I know it was wrong and I live with it every day. I live with that shame every day. The question is like, how deep does that go? Obviously, you know, he is a very. I don't want to deal with the darkness, as you said. And D is someone who lives in darkness. Yeah, he, it's, it's where he's comfortable. And the thing about D is he is so smart and he is, he's so perceptive. And I think what makes him that way is the Anger that is within him. The hate that is within him.

[Itai Benson]

And the self. Hate.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

I mean, I think one of his last lines is like, I think I'm a terrible person. I think I might be a terrible person.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

He says to Fred, they're left alone at the end of the play. But learning about his, as he calls it, relationship. That is one of the more interesting cases of these four, because essentially. So he is. He is. He. He is a musical theater. He was a musical theater performer and he toured in national tours with Kathy Rigby. With Kathy Rigby. Peter Pan.

[Matt Koplik]

Who?

[Itai Benson]

Somewhere 98 tour. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And somewhere Kathy Rigby is like, please don't put my name in there.

[Itai Benson]

I know, I know. And yet they somehow got permission.

[Matt Koplik]

And Vanessa Williams and Diana Ross, although he didn't work with Diana Ross, he just loves her.

[Itai Benson]

But he worked with. He did music videos. He choreographed music videos or something.

[Matt Koplik]

He was a relatively successful musical theater person in the sense that, like, he was working.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. And when he was. When he did this Peter Pan, he was playing one of the pirates on the Jolly Roger, and he began what he calls a relationship with one of the actors playing one of the Lost Boys.

[Matt Koplik]

Tootles.

[Itai Benson]

Tootles. Tootles, yes. By the name of Tootles.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. It's so specific that Norris makes it. Tootles.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. Yes. It's so good.

[Matt Koplik]

It is so good.

[Itai Benson]

Again, mining any comedy you can out of this horrific subject, truly. But. But he ended up having this relationship for years, I believe, wasn't it?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, two to three years, something like that.

[Itai Benson]

Two to three years. And. And he says, well, no, he loved me.

[Matt Koplik]

We.

[Itai Benson]

We loved each other. And then all. We. We don't really learn the rest of the story from him, but later on, we learn in a moment of. In a very heated moment, the information comes out that he. Then the young man that he had had this relationship with got HIV and died. Dee does not have hiv. But Gio, like, accuses him like, you ruined that kid's life. You ruined his life and he died because of you. And then they all end up fighting and chaos ensues.

[Matt Koplik]

But.

[Itai Benson]

That is one of the trickier cases of these four men.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, because you find out from. First of all, D makes it very clear. He says, I never had a sexual relationship with a person that young before or since. He's like, this was one person. He goes, this individual, when I was sent to jail, wrote me every week for seven years until he eventually died, saying, how she loves. And he missed me. First of all, you know, It's. We're talking about a 22, 23 year age gap which is already large no matter how old you are, but especially at 14. And we've seen now May December romances of that age gap later in life.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, later.

[Matt Koplik]

But, but. And I mean, I find it always kind of tricky in general when there's a. With. When there's an age gap that large no matter what. And my own grandfather remarried someone about that same age gap, married someone my. Four years older than my mother. And yeah, and it was, it was, believe me, it was rough when it happened. And I think there are some things that my family still hasn't reckoned with it. And so Thanksgiving is going to be fun once again.

[Itai Benson]

But Thanksgiving is always a play.

[Matt Koplik]

I think they wrote something called the Thanksgiving Play.

[Itai Benson]

I think they may have.

[Matt Koplik]

They may have. On the pathway it happened. I saw it once. Once upon a time. Once upon a. One more time even. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. I remember I was dating someone a little older than myself and I say dating loosely. I had been on a few dates with someone who was a quite a few years older than me and I was with my sister and I was talking about how like, well, it was going and she was kind of being a little shady about it. And I said, what's up? She goes, it's like, listen, I want you to be happy and if you guys connect, that's great. She goes, part of me is always just gonna wonder, like, who are you as a person? If you are like mentally and emotionally compatible with someone 20 years your junior, just like you're in just very different points of your life. So she's like. So she's like, to me, that's always just going to be. Be there. And sometimes it's, you know, just through happenstance, you know, the, the May. Which one's younger than May? December. Is it May or is the December.

[Itai Benson]

May is the younger one.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. She's like, is the December person like emotionally young for their age while the May is emotionally older? And like you sort of how Benjamin Button me in the middle. Who knows? But I hear that and I'm like, I don't totally agree, but I hear you and I get you and I don't not agree at the same time. So there is that component. And then again at 14, it doesn't matter. How mature you are for your age. You're not an adult. No.

[Itai Benson]

You're not a consenting adult.

[Matt Koplik]

Not in any way. As someone who was 17 and, you know, at the time, thought it was my choice to do what I did, it wasn't. It's. That's just not how it works. You're. You have not experienced enough. You are not aware enough of your own faculties of the world, of the people around you. And, you know, when Dee talks about the aftermath and how he was written every week, how much of that is devotion and how much of that is its own sense of trauma, you know, because Dee never talks about whether he responded or if he could respond. Maybe this was a boy who also wanted answers to all this. I will say I've talked about this myself with my, you know, entanglement with bub. Just the lack of answers and the lack of closure is something that you don't ever get over. You have to kind of eventually move on from it and do your own thing. But that becomes just a raw spot that always lasts there. And I can imagine that manifesting in weekly letters with someone, because the connection to that with Andy is, again, you want to believe that the person who meant so much to you, you meant to them. And it's painful to think that maybe you weren't. That you were just a cog, that you were a pawn. And you want to believe, and you'll do everything you can to believe, because the reality, the alternate reality that you put all your faith in someone who lied to your face daily and you bought it hook, line, and sinker is even more painful.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, there's also, you know, there's the question with Andy there of, like, is the lie conscious, the lying about. No. I know that you made me do this. Is it. Like, memory is a very tricky mistress. And like. Like, Andy could possibly remember that this happened to him, that he was. That he was forced to perform that act, and then. And then he's faced with the truth, and he literally can't. He can't handle it. But, you know, you can look at Andy as, like, oh, he's known this whole time that he's lying. He's lying. He's just trying to. Trying to get this guy to admit. But. But I don't know that it's that simple.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's never that simple. If Andy knew he was lying, that would make Andy more vindictive than he actually is. Or, I don't want to say evil, because we throw the word evil around so much. I feel like evil comes down to ultimately choices. And that's the other thing about these men and their acts is, like, we talk about sickness, Right. And. And that is something that can't necessarily be helped or, you know, it's something that is a. Is a flaw that needs to, you know, hopefully be healed in you. But when you get to a certain point of your life, you do make a decision of how you act. And that's sort of the thing about Fred that constantly you have to remind yourself, because the first of all, Eta and I are talking about this play and none of you are actually watching it. You're not in the room while this is happening. What's the name of the actor who plays Fred again? It's Francis.

[Itai Benson]

Francis Guinan.

[Matt Koplik]

Guinan, I don't care who you are. There is a part of you watching an old man in a wheelchair get accosted. And just on a guttural level, you want to help because you're watching an elderly man get accosted again in a wheelchair.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But you then have to remind yourself the choices that Fred made of how he was going to act. Because the other thing about a predator is that a predator doesn't just act on impulse. They have to be strategic because they do ultimately know what they're doing is wrong.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Society has told them.

[Itai Benson]

Yes, there is shame.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And there is. And the reason I also bring up the idea that there might be a queer component to anti sexuality that now has been fucking destroyed because of how. Of what happened to him. There is a lot of times with predators, especially queer predators, they look, they. They can recognize, usually in younger children, those who are sensitive, who are vulnerable, who. Where there's the potential that they could be queer down the line. It's just one of those things that, like, it's a sixth sense that predators have. I don't know how they have it, but they have it.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're able to sort of pinpoint the moment to act. With Tommy, Fred clearly knew that he was going to be gay and that, you know, if he nurtured him to an extent, he could then get Tommy to trust him and then he could perform the acts that he performed. Which is why he also went further with Tommy than he ever did with Andy. Andy, he recognized a sensitive soul who could possibly be queer. But more important than that, had a father who died and a mother who never paid attention and felt very alone.

[Itai Benson]

Needed a father figure, parent figure. Yeah, he needed love.

[Matt Koplik]

He needed.

[Itai Benson]

He still needs it 30 years later.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Itai Benson]

He comes and he Wants love from this man. And it's so freaking complicated. And I think you talked about in terms of evil, what these people doing, what these people do, Is it evil? Are they evil? Does it make them evil? And I think the playwright is not concerned with good and evil. He's just concerned with human.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

With humanity. And he nails it in this play.

[Matt Koplik]

Again, I think evil comes from meditation and planning. You know, badness is where that comes from when someone is messy and makes bad choices out of their own messiness and complicated drowning. You know, we talked about this in the Carousel episode, which I don't know if this is coming before or after this episode. I couldn't tell you. I'm recording everything so out of order. But you know, with the character of Billy Bigelow, you have to remember and the way to play Billy, truly the way you have to find your way into Billy is after the if I loved you scene for the rest of the show. That is a man who is drowning. And he. Every action he does is just immediate guttural impulse, most of which he regrets the moment he does it.

[Itai Benson]

And self sabotage.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. He's not, he's not thinking ahead. When it's calculated, that is where it becomes a little trickier because I. And again, we throw words like evil around all the time. And I don't know if I would call it evil necessarily, but sometimes you do question, you know, whereas Fred seems so sweet and maybe he's the one most trying to repent after the fact. There is a calculated, predatorial element to his past that makes you go, Jesus Christ. Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And again they bring up the word sickness and we have to sort of consider like, like other. What are, what are other sicknesses that we do have empathy for or addictions.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

You know, someone who is addicted to drugs or addicted to, you know, but I guess that is a self harm as opposed to the harm of another person, let alone the harm of a child. But like where is it calculated versus where is it impulsive? And they're literally not even control. It's the sickness taking over. And there's no way to answer it.

[Matt Koplik]

There's also. What's also interesting is how with the. Those four and their situations, probably because they are children, how easily the victims end up getting believed as. As far as I'm aware, in terms of those situations, because you look at something like Fred, you know, someone who's married, clearly, you know, closet homosexual at the time, very sweet, outwardly, probably a very beloved member of the community at the time. You know, we See it now. How many times people don't want to believe the person that they've put all this love and admiration for ends up having done this monstrous thing. You know, look at Bill Cosby or any. Or. And that doesn't even have to even go to that extreme. How I could list off so many people who I've either had a lovely experience with and then heard something terrible about, or I've had a terrible experience. And then when I, like, tell friends about, they're like, well, I've had a great time. It's like people are. People are complicated and they are capable of a lot of good and a lot of bad.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, you know, I think you and I both have seen that in many people. I'm sure we've done the same. You know, for every person out there who says lovely things about me, there's someone out there who, you know, will just tell everyone how awful I am.

[Itai Benson]

They only say lovely things about me, by the way.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I don't know. And I try an awful thing.

[Itai Benson]

I'm morally perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

I know each. I've tried. I've looked. I've asked everybody. I've asked absolutely everybody. You know what Patty says about you? Best kisser I ever had. And I've been married for how many years?

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Better than my hubby.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. Well, I'm gonna ask Michael Hayden about you.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, he's gonna say that. Fucking nut job. No, you cannot live a day on this earth and not hurt somebody.

[Itai Benson]

Correct.

[Matt Koplik]

The hope is that you do it accidentally, unintentionally, and if you. And you can be made aware of it and you can apologize and Course correct and hope to give that person what they need to move on from anything that you've done to them.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The, the. It takes. That takes self awareness, that takes accountability, and that takes, you know, a bit of. I hate to say the word, but. Courage.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. Yeah. Well, I guess the last. My final thoughts on on Downstate is that right now we're living in a time. I mean, like what, what in the Internet, what social media has done is. It's just made us into such, like, moral absolutists.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

You know, and, and, and moral purists. And I'm so grateful that there are artists like Bruce Norris who are questioning all of it and who are forcing us to question all of it and to live entirely in the gray because we're getting more and more afraid of gray.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

Especially online. And I hope that everyone listening to this goes and reads this play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I hope you haven't seen it. And I hope more people do this play because it's. It's so every play should be seen and heard, not just read. But you do get a lot of the power from reading it. No, I. I fully agree with you. We didn't really discuss sort of the ultimate reveal, which is at the end of the act, where we've learned that Felix has taken his own life.

[Itai Benson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt Koplik]

We didn't even mention that. I've got to say, though, I. When I saw it the first time, I saw it, because Act 2 opens with Andy and Dee, and Dee apologizes for the smell.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. Yes. I called it immediately as well. And it was. And I was trying to figure out as I reread it, because I remember clocking that immediately. The moment they said there's a smell. It's like. Because the last thing we see is when we learn about what Felix did. And Ivy says, you're gonna basically have to either go back to jail or you're going to have to go back to, like, this correctional program. He's not willing to do that. And he shuts himself in his room. And then Act 2 opens with there's a smell. I knew what was happening, and I was trying to think this time whether that is a flaw of the play. I was like, you know, maybe that's a little bit of a flaw. It's telegraphed really early. But as I thought about it more, I'm like, no. We're just so used to, like, there must be a big twist and a big reveal. We're used to, like, a post M. Night Shyamalan era of, like, the big reveal at the end. But to me, it doesn't matter that we know early on, because it is so inevitable. It is so inevitable that one of these, if not many of them, will take their own lives.

[Matt Koplik]

Life. And it's. It's the. Even if you know it's coming, like. And we knew it was coming. Yes. But there's still just the physical reveal of it. Again, the difference between reading a play and seeing a play. Yeah. Just seeing. Literally, Felix and Norris describes exactly what it's supposed to look like in the. In the script. And it's exactly how they staged it.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Down to the last detail.

[Itai Benson]

It's brutal.

[Matt Koplik]

It's very brutal. And it's the way Sondheim sort of talks about. With the Beggar Woman reveal and Sweeney, you know, he wanted the whole audience to get it at the same moment, and they never did. Did. So he would always try to alter it which way he added, the back room is all about, like, he tried to make it so people would know. At the same time, he goes, I've since learned, like, you can never get 1700 people to get it at the exact same time.

[Itai Benson]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And so with Downstate, I think it kind of has its cake in and eats it, too. Because you have us who the moment they say smell, we're like, oh. And then an hour later, it's revealed.

[Itai Benson]

We'Re also people who have seen so many plays and so many films were like, oh, there's got to be something. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the people who don't know it's coming and get surprised, but still, like, just seeing it is enough to jar you. Yes. Yeah. And. And the way that Act 1 ends, you know, Felix goes into his room and starts, you know, praying and reciting to himself, and Dee takes the Diana Ross music and dials it up to 11 and just dances around in the home on his own to drown out the sound of Felix. Yeah. Which is its own form of selfishness, but also at the same time, like, does what he needs to do to kind of get through the rest of the day. Yeah. I feel like there's one other thing I wanted to say, but I can't remember anymore.

[Itai Benson]

There's so much.

[Matt Koplik]

There's so much to say. We could go on for hours, but you have a dumb baby at home, and I gotta eventually get home myself. Etai, as we've been discussing, I try to, like, kind of talk about this with every work that we go over, whether something is actually problematic, not problematic, or just a product of its time, determining which of the three we think it is and why. I'll go first while you. Because you did ask before. You said, are any questions I should know about? And I said no, and then I threw this question at you.

[Itai Benson]

Boom.

[Matt Koplik]

Boom. That's what we call gotcha journalism. I learned that from James Lipton. But for me, I do not find this play problematic. I think, as we were saying, it deals with such a tough moral and ethical situation and refuses to give answers. And because of that, people get very uncomfortable. Oh, this is what I was gonna say. Rob and I mentioned this in an earlier episode, and I'm sure I've said it again since. It's been a long week, y', all, and I've recorded five episodes. But I do think we have regressed, not only as audiences but as artists in terms of how we deal with this, because we've kind of gone back to wanting nothing but Clear cut morality set for us. Like we're back at the Hays Code. No, no. I need someone to say to the audience, this is wrong. Here's what it is.

[Itai Benson]

Yes. It's. It's like, it's what I was saying about author's intent.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And. And stuff. We need. We need all the answers spelled out. And we need everyone, every single kind of human represented in every play. And we need. Yeah. And we need our plays to be morally pure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And we're not. We're less and less seeking questions.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And that, that's very scary to me. And I think a lot of art is becoming sanitized and that's why this is such, like, an important piece of work to me.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And I'm. I've also said, you know, when people go, well, I just want to go to escape. I'm like, I view theater and film and all this, like, as a steady diet. You can't just live off of sugar, nor can you just live off of broccoli. You need all of it. And I don't trust anyone who only wants to see the tough stuff, and I don't trust anyone who only wants to see the confection. I need everything, and I need it all to sort of be engaging on a different level. So, like, I will go see Titanique for a fourth time next week.

[Itai Benson]

Nice.

[Matt Koplik]

But also, like, tell me that downstate's happening again. I'll see it for a third time.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And that is why I am amazing.

[Itai Benson]

You are amazing. You're a legend.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm a legend in some circles.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I was the first bad boy at the manor. Okay.

[Itai Benson]

You are, you're. You are a legend of the manor. You're the lord of the manor.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I just know that all of you boys, when you found out that we finally are doing Bat Boy and you said, well, who's get. Who's gets to do it? They said, koplik. And you all went. Him, he. He laid in wait while we got to play Frederick and Guido and, and.

[Itai Benson]

Just we all wanted to play Bat Boy.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. And I was like, my time will come. I'm gonna play the disciple in Jesus Christ Superstar. I'm gonna play a shark for some reason. And. And my time will come. And I got to be back.

[Itai Benson]

It was like when I graduated college and our speaker was Larry Page of Google. And then the year after I graduated, the speaker was Barack Obama.

[Matt Koplik]

Good for you.

[Itai Benson]

It's exactly like that.

[Matt Koplik]

That's exactly that. You know what? You know what it's like it's like in Smile when you've been watching Jodi Benson and Anna Marie Bobby all night and then fucking Vann Cox wins the pageant. That's what it is. That is intentionally.

[Itai Benson]

Van Cox. Was she made for the gays?

[Matt Koplik]

Are you kidding me? She calls her father long distance. And Caroline. Or change.

[Itai Benson]

I actually just watched Summoning Sylvia, the film that Alex Weissen, Wes Taylor made, and it is brilliant.

[Matt Koplik]

I need to watch that.

[Itai Benson]

And she is wonderful.

[Matt Koplik]

You just. You did that? You did the 12 with Wes.

[Itai Benson]

I did. I did. I did. He's. He's amazing.

[Matt Koplik]

Famously Crazier Than youn. A song from Adam's Family. A show that exists itai downstate Problematic. Not problematic. Products of its time.

[Itai Benson]

Not problematic. I think it is incredibly well constructed. I think just as like the rules of drama, it is incredibly well constructed. There is not a line that is not necessary. Every little. Every little breadcrumb that is dropped has consequences. And this is the opposite of problematic. This is the kind of play that we need right now.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

And that I hope more people have the courage to write.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I want to leave y' all with one final image, how this play ends. Felix has taken his life. Everyone is. It is revealed to everyone. There's one moment in the whole play when I saw it both times where I was like, I could do without that line. It's when all the violence has happened and Andy has taken the bad and all this stuff, and Felix. And Felix is revealed to have taken his own life. And everyone gasps. And then Fred just goes, oh, Felix. Yeah, it's the one. It's the one. Listen, it makes sense because it's Fred. But it's the one line where I was like, you can cut it. But after all it's said and done and, you know, they've taken Felix's body. You know, we flash forward an hour or so later, and Andy's been detained in his car because, you know, he was. He assaulted Fred. And of course, Emily comes back. And on a chemical level, I was thrilled.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I was like, sally's back.

[Itai Benson]

Girl's back. Your girl's back.

[Matt Koplik]

Bruce Norris knew what I needed. I needed bookended Sally's. But again, talk about a wonderful track. You do your first scene and then you're like, I'm gonna watch two episodes of Grey's Anatomy and come back for the finale, which I guarantee you she did. But she comes back, Ms. Emily, asking how much longer they've got because she has a child at that hotel with nothing but a babysitter.

[Itai Benson]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Again, I need your wife to do that during tech, not you.

[Itai Benson]

Social only she's the better actor anyway.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, well, you know, you said it, but she. Emily comes in, you know, demanding that they leave soon, and being constantly reminded, your husband came here on his own accord. And her response is always just, my husband did nothing wrong. My husband did nothing wrong. And in this frustration that she can't leave when she wants to, she sees Dee and Fred sitting there after everything that's gone down and Gia's now gone to prison. And Ivy doesn't know what to say other than like, we'll find you two new roommates soon. And Emily thinks that this is the perfect time to tell them what she thinks of them. Morally right of, I hope there's an afterlife, because I don't think that we've figured out yet in this life what to do with people like you. She goes, and I'm sorry, but that is just how I feel. Which has also become a go to response anytime someone's a fucking dick.

[Itai Benson]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but that's just how I feel.

[Itai Benson]

How I feel.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And then she goes and listen, she's.

[Itai Benson]

Kind of a Karen.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, she's the ultimate Karen. And if there's one thing about Sally in that show that I disagree with is like, if there's one thing Sally Murphy is not, is a Karen, especially a Becky kind of Karen with a. With a Birkin bag and teaches yoga. I'm like, sally Murphy is the kind of woman who sees that kind of woman, throws coffee in her face. But I love her expanding her range. But that is where Norris leaves that part of the conversation of, like, even if you agree with it, is this the moment to say it as you go into your Audi with your husband, take your kid and go back to your nice house in Chicago. But also, as we've said, like, what is their life normally like?

[Itai Benson]

Yeah, and it's like, does. Is. All that stuff doesn't mean anything. You know, it's. It's. It's. Everyone's broken in this play. Everyone is broken. And it's hard. You can't compare traumas and comparing. Well, this person has wealth, but he did. He was assaulted. And this person, you know, is sick, and this person was beaten. And it's. It's. It's a broken world that he. That he creates.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it is. And you know, everyone is retaliating to either justify themselves or justify a way forward. You know, D is angry and lashes out, and he even says, like, I say these terrible things knowing that they're terrible. He's antagonistic that way. He's like a cat in heat. And it doesn't change what he's done or what his life is going to be. Fred can try to lead with kindness and calmness going forward. Doesn't change that it'll never get better. He can try to make the best of it, but he's living in a Gio. Can always claim he's better than everyone else because of the technicality of his crime. But he's going back to jail now.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And.

[Itai Benson]

And he was very. To being out.

[Matt Koplik]

He was.

[Itai Benson]

In January. He was going to be out of this house.

[Matt Koplik]

He was also being messy, though, by having an underage girl in their home. Juuling.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. Juling CBD or whatever.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Emily and Andy do this whole thing expecting everything not necessarily to be fixed, but to get better. Yeah.

[Itai Benson]

Some sort of catharsis. Some sort of.

[Matt Koplik]

And the truth is that it won't because all the other issues that they have are rooted deeper than that. Some of it might be triggered by what's happened to Andy and. And everything that's now happened since. But it's not the answer. And Norris knows that. And that's what makes it a wonderful, wonderful play. Itai this has been delightful.

[Itai Benson]

Thank you. I'm so happy to hear that from the Manners Bat boy. It means the world to me. You don't even know what this means to me.

[Matt Koplik]

You don't know what it means to me. Sir. To speak to the. I'm gonna get the exact number. The 15,742nd man to make out with Patti LuPone. That is means the world to me. Thank you so much.

[Itai Benson]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

You know, I've watched you from afar. I've been in the room when your shows have won Tonys. And it's nice to be in the room with you now and have you remember who I am all these years later. This is my Glenn Close and Fatal at Saxon. A movie that's quoted in downstate, by the way.

[Itai Benson]

That's right.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. Yeah. It's a great moment. Dee does have a. Bruce Norris is not a gay man, as far as I know. I believe he has always been connected with women. But he writes D in a way where I'm like, oh, you have gay friends. And you've absorbed them quite nicely.

[Itai Benson]

He's did his due diligence.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. The final sequence with just D and Fred where they. Just. Where they're talking about Lady Day because of that poster. It's it's very sweet and it's. It's very heartbreaking. It is.

[Itai Benson]

And then they listen to Chopin. That's how the play ends.

[Matt Koplik]

That's how the play ends. Itai where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Itai Benson]

If they want to find me, they can find me sometimes on Instagram. Itai Benson.

[Matt Koplik]

Don't look for the baby. It's not on there.

[Itai Benson]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And you can find Itai at Paper Mill doing Fiddler on the Roof. When do you guys perform? What's the opening date?

[Itai Benson]

The first performance, I believe is the 6th of December. And we run through December and through the new year through the first week of January. I will be be playing Mottle the Tailor. Alexandra will be playing Zeitle. We get to get married. We get to have our wedding destroyed and then we get to have a baby. And I want to advocate for my baby to be on stage and make his debut.

[Matt Koplik]

I think your baby should. I want his health. Weeks is so should gonna mix belt the Be glad you got a man.

[Itai Benson]

You'll just have to come and find out.

[Matt Koplik]

I have to go back to Jersey. That I haven't been to Jersey since. Obvious joke here. If you like. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Coplock. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. I don't know if anyone's taken any of that to heart because I've recorded like seven of these in 10 days and we'll see what happens. Tune in next week for I don't know what. Either it's going to be Promises, Promises or it's going to be Carousel or it's going to be the King and I or it's gonna be the Inheritance or the Boys in the Band. One of those. Yeah. It should be fun. Itai we close out every episode with it with a Broadway lady. Who would you like to have us close out today?

[Itai Benson]

It's gotta be Ms. Sally Murphy.

[Matt Koplik]

Correct answer. I wish there was a cover of Sally Murphy singing something from Billie Holiday, but there isn't.

[Itai Benson]

You want to just use the weird Wild Party song?

[Matt Koplik]

I might do the weird will. Well, I might do the weird Wild Party. I might do Princess. I don't know, maybe I'll just do her final line delivery at the end of the bench scene.

[Itai Benson]

In Carousel, the Blossoms are just coming down by themselves.

[Matt Koplik]

Just their time to. I reckon she says, with all the breaths in the world. I know you love it.

[Itai Benson]

Oh my God. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. We. We all know that that bootleg that I posted is canon. It's wonderful.

[Itai Benson]

I know you're a saint for doing it.

[Matt Koplik]

I. Yeah. Listen, I've done a lot of terrible things in my life. The one thing I know is gonna get me into heaven is that fucking bootleg.

[Itai Benson]

We're all capable of good, we're all capable of bad.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Itai Benson]

But you did the ultimate good.

[Matt Koplik]

I did the ultimate good. I. Listen, I have destroyed some lives. I've destroyed some careers. There are some people who will never work on Broadway again because of me.

[Itai Benson]

Worth it for that carousel bootleg.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And then there are some people who book Sweeney. Anyway, on that note, look, I've been so good, I've edited every mention of that out of episodes. And this might be the first time that I keep it in because this is downstate. It's controversial, baby.

[Itai Benson]

Yeah. This is not just for the patreon.

[Matt Koplik]

No, no. We gotta include mayonnaise. All right, y', all, we'll see you next week. And we're gonna have Sally carry us out. Thank you again. Itai, take us away. Sally. Today the boy down by the river.

[Itai Benson]

Staring at me Curled on his forehead Shamelessly staring what was that feeling?

[Matt Koplik]

What was that feeling?