HEATHERS w/ Chelsea Williams

Summary

Broadway Breakdown — "HEATHERS" w/ Chelsea Williams (January 4, 2024)

Episode Overview

On this episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik welcomes actor and singer Chelsea Williams ("Mamma Mia!", "Jesus Christ Superstar," "In Transit") for a passionate, irreverent deep dive into Heathers: The Musical—its origins, themes, controversies, and cult legacy. Part of the “Problematic Question Mark” series, this week’s show interrogates the musical’s reputation and its adaptation of a classic dark comedy film, sparing no four-letter words along the way.

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Main Discussion Themes

1. "Heathers" as a "Problematic" Musical (03:13–04:42)

• Matt frames the episode in the context of "problematic" theater, critiquing how the term is often misused to mean "morally questionable" rather than structurally failing.
• Matt: “Problematic is a word… people use incorrectly…but now it’s used to describe shows where people take moral issues with the writing.” (03:38)
• Both note that the musical’s writers and much of its fanbase are progressive, and the issues often raised stem from content, not intent.

2. Plot Summary & Heathers vs. Mean Girls (04:49–06:18)

• Chelsea recaps the plot: Popular girl trio "The Heathers" (pre-dating "Mean Girls"), mortal mayhem, and Veronica Sawyer’s journey from outsider to accidental killer.
• Matt observes the lasting influence on pop culture and the show's willingness to "go further and darker" than its spiritual successors.
• Both agree Veronica is drawn into violence not by malice, but increasingly complicated motives: “She’s nice, not kind.” (22:27)

3. The Movie vs. The Musical: Tone and Camp (08:08–11:20; 13:34–14:42)

• Matt, a die-hard fan of the 1989 film, contrasts the movie’s “razor-sharp, very cynical” tone with the musical’s stylized, sometimes “try-hard edgy” approach.
• Chelsea: “Sometimes, actual camp is not knowing you’re camp.” (10:14)
• Original movie’s influence on the musical is discussed, including casting lore (Kristen Bell, Annaleigh Ashford, Jeremy Jordan).

4. The "Date Rape" Song(s) — "Blue" and "You're Welcome" (15:35–20:18)

• A deep, nuanced critique of the infamous scene and songs about the football jocks’ attempted assault, addressing:
  • How humor and musicalization can clash with subject matter
  • The “Blue” controversy and the revised “You’re Welcome” for the West End
  • Matt: “My honest take is there should be no song there.” (20:18)
  • Chelsea: “I think they’re making fun of men…[not] date rape.” (18:54)

5. Characters and Their Arcs — Nuance vs. Simplicity (21:39–26:47)

• Explores the complexity of Veronica in film and the musical, with the latter favoring empathy and a “hero’s journey” over antihero ambiguity.
• Chelsea: “There’s more desperation in the musical... [Film] Veronica is just kind of bored, toying with people.” (25:35)
• Discussion of character amalgamation and casting controversies.

6. Standout Songs and Musical Highs/Lows (29:28–40:52)

• Chelsea’s favorites: "Dead Girl Walking" (chaotic sexual agency), "Meant to Be Yours" (JD's descent).
• Matt loves the musical theater craftsmanship but wishes the material went darker: “…chewing tobacco replaced by bubblegum” (87:17)
• Both dislike "Candy Store": “It’s a song where…it’s not unmelodic…It’s just not a number that Heather Chandler sings.” (39:19)
• Praise for the score’s energy and vocal fireworks but concern for actor stamina.

7. Social Satire, Power, and Human Nature (45:12–50:15)

• Exploration of how “Heathers,” especially the movie, exposes the predatory, self-interested side of adolescence and society at large.
• Chelsea: “I love that the film really puts on display…everyone has deep, dark, twisted fantasies.” (46:47)
• Matt: "We're just toxic meatbags roaming this earth." (46:10)

8. Portrayal of Mental Health, Suicide, and Empathy (61:08–112:20)

• Frank, sensitive dissection of how both versions handle suicide, depression, and trauma.
• Acknowledgment that humor—done right—can illuminate rather than trivialize.
• Discussion of key character moments: Heather McNamara’s “Lifeboat,” Martha Dunstock’s storyline, and audience attitudes toward suffering and attention-seeking.
• Matt: “If you can find humor out of the darkest things…that’s a specific kind of genius.” (61:38)

9. Cultural Shifts and the Challenges of Updating "Heathers" (72:23–77:43)

• Debate over whether “Heathers” could exist today, given its school violence themes post-Columbine.
• Analysis of failed TV remakes and how changing the identity of the Heathers (e.g., for social media, inclusivity) distorts the story's subversive spirit.

10. Vocal Demands and the Evolution of “Pop-Belt Musicals” (88:10–97:47)

• Chelsea, as a musical theater performer, details the destructive demands now placed on female leads (“Wicked” as the tipping point), and the tension between thrilling vocals and sustainable storytelling.
• “It’s not sustainable…It’s making me almost cringe in my seat where I’m worried for this person throughout the show.” (89:52)
• Discussion of how modern shows often sacrifice character for belting and spectacle.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:38 | Matt | “Problematic is a word…people use incorrectly…now it’s used to describe shows where people take moral issues with the writing.” | | 07:36 | Chelsea | “I still, every once in a while, I listen to Dead Girl Walking.” | | 10:14 | Chelsea | “Sometimes, actual camp is not knowing you’re camp.” | | 20:18 | Matt | “My honest take is there just should be no song there.” [on the double date/assault sequence] | | 25:35 | Chelsea | “There is more of a desperation in the musical. Whereas Winona’s Veronica…is just kind of bored.” | | 29:28 | Chelsea | “Dead Girl Walking. Great song. It’s a great, great build…as a 22-year-old, it was everything I wanted to do.” | | 39:19 | Matt | “[Candy Store is] not a number that Heather Chandler sings.” | | 46:47 | Chelsea | “I love that the film really puts on display…everyone has deep, dark, twisted fantasies.” | | 61:38 | Matt | “If you can find humor out of the darkest things…that’s a specific kind of genius.” | | 89:52 | Chelsea | “It’s not sustainable…It’s making me almost cringe in my seat where I’m worried for this person throughout the show.” | | 112:39 | Matt | “[The] double-edged sword of social media…” | | 121:16 | Matt | “[Veronica & Heather had] history. For all the resentment…there was a love there, even if it was toxic.” |

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:32: Intro to podcast, “Problematic Question Mark” series
• 03:09: Why cover Heathers? Origins and definition of “problematic”
• 04:49: Plot summary—the Heathers, Veronica, JD, and murder
• 07:02: Chelsea’s first encounter with the musical; Off-Broadway run
• 13:34: Distinguishing the film’s tone and original context
• 15:35–20:18: In-depth on "Blue," "You're Welcome," and issues of tone
• 21:39–26:47: Contrasting Veronica in film v. musical; nature of antiheroes
• 29:28–37:25: Discussion of favorite and least favorite songs; “Dead Girl Walking,” “Candy Store”
• 45:12: Human nature, darkness, social structures in “Heathers”
• 61:08–62:08: Comedy as an access point for tragedy
• 72:23–77:43: Post-Columbine context, remake missteps, the danger of updating Heathers for a new era
• 88:10–97:47: Vocal demands, contemporary pop-belt musical trends, actor health
• 112:39–121:59: Ending, legacy, and why the Heathers film remains essential viewing
• 132:19: Memorable closing with dialogue from the film

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Episode Takeaways

Heathers: The Musical is a cult favorite with infectious songs and unforgettable characters, but its journey from dark satire to pop musical has left it both beloved and divisive. Matt and Chelsea argue that—while the musical is often clever and engaging—it sometimes softens or oversimplifies the barbed, cynical power of the 1989 film, and runs into structural and ethical challenges by musicalizing truly disturbing subject matter.

Both hosts champion the power of humor and camp to confront pain and taboo ("If you can find humor out of the darkest things…that’s a specific kind of genius."), but criticize the show’s tendency to favor catharsis, optimism, and "hero’s journey" tropes over the film’s unflinching social critique. The discussion also examines the toll that modern musical theater places on its performers, and the shifting meanings of popularity and victimhood in the age of social media.

Bottom Line: Heathers remains deeply entertaining, even as it raises more questions than answers about the nature of empathy, darkness, and growing up. See the musical for the bops, but see the movie for true insight.

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Further Listening/Reading

• Heathers: The Musical (Off-Broadway and West End cast albums)
• Heathers (1989 film, now streaming on Criterion)
• Matt's episode on Dear Evan Hansen for parallel themes of youth, "problematic" musicals, and public empathy

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“See the movie. If you love the musical but haven’t seen the movie, see the movie. If you don’t love the musical and never saw the movie, see the movie.”
— Chelsea Williams (124:14)

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For more, follow:
Matt Koplik — Instagram: @mattkoplik
Chelsea Williams — Instagram: @chelseawilliams

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Stay tuned for the next episode, and remember: We’re all just toxic meatbags roaming this earth! (46:10)

Transcript

[Chelsea Williams]

September 1, 1989. Dear Diary, I believe I'm a good person. You know, I think that there's good in everyone. But here we are, first day of senior year, and I look around at these kids that I've known all my life, and I ask myself, what happened?

[Matt Koplik]

Freak. Slug. Burnout. Bug eyes. Poser. Mortass.

[Chelsea Williams]

We were so tiny, happy and shiny, playing tag and getting chased.

[Matt Koplik]

Break sled. Loser. Short boss.

[Chelsea Williams]

Singing and clapping.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question Mark, and it is covering shows that you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a dear friend of mine. First time on the pod. You might have seen her across the country in Mamma Mia. Or Jesus Ashkriste Superstar, otherwise known as Jesus Christ Superstar. Or on Broadway in Mamma Mia. Or in transit.

[Chelsea Williams]

In transit.

[Matt Koplik]

In transit. I remember.

[Chelsea Williams]

Heard of it?

[Matt Koplik]

I have, actually.

[Chelsea Williams]

Maybe a few people have.

[Matt Koplik]

I think more than a handful, though. A little more people than know my podcast. And I. And I think. And that. That is history. That's our history. Please welcome to the pod. Chelsea Williams.

[Chelsea Williams]

Hello.

[Matt Koplik]

Hi, baby.

[Chelsea Williams]

Hi.

[Matt Koplik]

How are you doing, love?

[Chelsea Williams]

Good. This feels like it's been a long time coming.

[Matt Koplik]

It has been a long time coming.

[Chelsea Williams]

Thrill.

[Matt Koplik]

We've had this date planned for a long time.

[Chelsea Williams]

We're like. We talk about this when it's just the two of us. We might as well turn the microphones on.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The only difference is that there's no whiskey around. But, you know, I do have my honey, you have your coffee.

[Chelsea Williams]

It does feel wrong that there's no rose. Do, do, do all the uncultured know about your.

[Matt Koplik]

Your rose, My rose addiction. I've had a few episodes where I've drunk rose on the pod.

[Chelsea Williams]

How'd it go?

[Matt Koplik]

Surprisingly okay. The episodes where I had alcohol, I'm actually more coherent than when I don't.

[Chelsea Williams]

It slows you down a little bit.

[Matt Koplik]

Little bit.

[Chelsea Williams]

You operate on a higher plane than most of us, let's be honest.

[Matt Koplik]

And I can't keep up. I. I move with yourself. I can't. I move so fast. Words start coming out, and I go, what was I saying?

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, you might need to. You could use a glass of. For. For me to keep up with you, hon, because my Broadway knowledge is not as extensive as yours yes, but I have a lot of thoughts.

[Matt Koplik]

Chelsea, you had friends growing up, and that's why my knowledge is so far ahead of yours.

[Chelsea Williams]

Wow. I mean, allegedly.

[Matt Koplik]

Allegedly.

[Chelsea Williams]

I was mostly playing in the woods.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, trees are friends. Have you not seen Dear Evan Hansen?

[Chelsea Williams]

I have not seen Dear Evan Hansen.

[Matt Koplik]

Ironically, I think this episode is coming out after the Dear Evan Hansen episode, so there are going to be a lot of connections to the two. So I'm just letting everybody know. I apologize if I repeat. Shit. But you know what? That's what you came here for, because. Chelsea Williams, what musicale are we talking about? Today?

[Chelsea Williams]

I'm thrilled to announce that we will be talking about Heather's the Musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. One of two off Broadway shows that we are covering in this series. Usually we try to stick to Broadway, but we had to make an exception because this one was submitted quite a few times. When I asked the people who listen to the podcast and people who go on my Instagram what it was, a show that they considered problematic, and quite a few people said, Heather's. And I'm interested to get into it.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, I'm. I'm interested to hear why people think it's problematic. I have my own thoughts, but yes, well.

[Matt Koplik]

So first of all, again, I've been saying this a few times, but I like to. I like to sort of check in and get back to the basics of every episode and repeat myself a few times before we delve into new territory. Problematic is a word that we've stated on this podcast already. People use incorrectly when they talk about shows, because problematic should be applied to musicals or plays that don't work. You know, shows where the examples I always use are merely incandide, try as they might, they can't ever make them congeal. But now it's used to describe shows where people take moral issues with the writing. And as I've also said before on this podcast, 99% of the writers of these shows tend to fall on the liberal, progressive, Democratic political spectrum. And the people who have the issues with the shows are on the Democratic, liberal, progressive end of the spectrum. So I'm like, these people are not hateful towards, you know, these issues. If you have issues with the show, that's a failing in the writing. But it's not like they sat there and went, let's write a show that talks about how gays are stupid and women suck. I'm like, that's not. That's not what they're trying to do. But that doesn't mean they don't always Fail.

[Chelsea Williams]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

So, Chelsea, for those who don't know what is Heather's the Musical a boot.

[Chelsea Williams]

Heather's the musical is based on Heather's the movie, which if you haven't seen. Oh, my God, how dare you.

[Matt Koplik]

I talk about hateful, talk about uncultured.

[Chelsea Williams]

The talk about uncultured. I'm pretty sure it's on Criterion now. I don't know if they know what's good for them. Yeah, it is a classic. Winona Rider, Camp Dreamscape. I love the movie. So the musical is based on the movie, and it's basically about a group of teenagers. It's about a high school that is more or less run by three popular girls. It's the Mean Girls before Mean Girls.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like. Yeah, without a doubt.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, when. When the Mean Girls movie first came out, everyone was like, what's this Heather's redux bullshit? Yeah, but Mean Girls is a very different kind of take. And we'll. We'll talk about some of the similarities of their approaches, both the movies and the shows. Yeah. Yes. But.

[Chelsea Williams]

So Heather's dares to go a little further, in my opinion.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Chelsea Williams]

Much darker.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Well, because of this group. There girl in the group. Let's. Let's try to stick to exactly the musicals telling because they make some changes overall. But the musical, it. There's an outsider girl named Veronica Sawyer who gets to join the Heathers for a blissful three weeks and then hits the fan. She meets an outsider named J.D. and together, what do they do? Chelsea.

[Chelsea Williams]

They essentially nearly blow up the high school, but they. They end up killing a few people in the process.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The head Heather, two football jocks. And to cover their tracks, they make it look like suicides. And Veronica, who is a master forger, makes their suicide notes and makes them very eloquent and deep. And everyone just sort of flips their tune on these people who they all hated when they were alive.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, they end up making. They. They attempt to ruin these people's lives and end up making them more powerful post mortem.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. There. What this is. I mean, this is where you know that connection dear Evan Hansen comes in. Y'. All Heathers did it first because the movie was 89, so just know that Dan Waters, man, he was. He was onto something, baby. How so, Chelsea, how did this show come into your life? Did it at all?

[Chelsea Williams]

It did. I managed to see it twice. It was during a different time in my life where I was much more interested in going for Blood Vocal, which explains why I would be so into something Like Heather's, where as I listen to it now and it causes panic. But yeah. Yeah, I saw it twice off Broadway, and I just thought it was so, you know, I didn't love everything about it, but there are some bangers.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

I'm not gonna lie. I still, every once in a while, I listen to Dead Girl Walking.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, this. The Off Broadway cast album, is a wonderful gym album to listen to because I like to. I do like to listen to musical theater when I'm at the gym. Occasionally, I'll listen to the Barbie playlist I made for myself, but usually it's musical theater. It's like Wicked. It's Heather's. It's. It's shit like that. Legally Blonde, because I like. I like having bops, but I also like having a structure. I like it when a song builds, and a lot of pop songs don't really build that way, so I like that. And Heather's. I don't have to necessarily, like, think about it. I'll just listen to Beautiful. I'll listen to Dead Girl Walking, and it's fine.

[Chelsea Williams]

Beautiful's a great opening.

[Matt Koplik]

It is. There's a lot about this show that adheres very well to traditional musical theater, and I want to commend that as we go forward, because I'm gonna have critiques about the show. But I also. And I was telling Chelsea before we got on Mike, I. Full transparency. I have a lot of bias with this show because the movie is so important to me. I love the movie so much. I've known the movie since, God, like, seventh grade. I want to say I was that. I was that kid where, you know, that's cool.

[Chelsea Williams]

I respect that.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Winona Ryder has been very important to me for a very, very long time. I am a giant homosexual, and she's extraordinarily. I'm very gay. Listen, you have me to thank for Stranger Things, because I manifested Winona Ryder's comeback.

[Chelsea Williams]

Wow.

[Matt Koplik]

I did. When Black Swan didn't do it, I was like, okay, come on, guys. Let's. Let's really bring this back.

[Chelsea Williams]

When you wanted her to be in.

[Matt Koplik]

Black Swan, she was in Black Swan.

[Chelsea Williams]

She was in Black.

[Matt Koplik]

She's the ballerina. Natalie Portman replaces Winona Ryder. Yeah. She's the one when Natalie Portman's like, it's such an honor to replace you in this company. And Winona Ryder says to her, what did you do to get this part? He always said, you were such a frigid little girl. Did you suck his cock?

[Chelsea Williams]

Wow. Okay. I'm due for a rewatch.

[Matt Koplik]

You are due for a rewatch. Speaking of Natalie Portman, y'.

[Chelsea Williams]

All.

[Matt Koplik]

May December. Good watch.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. It's actually very similar to Heather's the movie in the sense of, like, it's very ethereal and it is knowingly campy, which we throw that word around a lot now because people don't really know what it means. But, like, knowingly campy is really just very smart melodrama played extraordinarily well. It's like John Waters, it's Charles Bush. And a lot of musicals lately have tried to do it and have all failed.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I blame a lack of angry homosexuals on the creative teams. They need to be on those creative teams. If you're going to do, quote, unquote, knowing camp, it tends to be a lot of straight men who are like, we're allies. And I'm like, have you seen Pink Flamingos? I don't think you have.

[Chelsea Williams]

Sometimes I think what makes something actual camp is. Is like not being totally aware of it being camp.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Well, that's knowing. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That's what camp is supposed to be. Like you. It's. It's Diana, where you go so hard, earnestly miss the ball incredibly. To the point that you, like, smack yourself in the head with the bat.

[Chelsea Williams]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

And we all go, that was drama.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes. And that's the difference between the film and the stage version, which, once it hit the stage, they knew the movie was camp, so they were going for camp on stage. And it almost ruins the effect.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like the movie. The movie is actually knowing camp because the movie is not earnest. The movie is incredibly cynical. And the musical. So the musical came into my life because, as we've mentioned, I'm a giant homosexual. I know all the goings on of the theater. And this show was written by Larry o' Keefe and Kevin Murphy. Larry o', Keefe, at that point, best known for Legally Blunt and Bat Boy. Probably still. And then Kevin Murphy, best known for the Reefer Madness musical Love Camp. That is camp.

[Chelsea Williams]

Let's talk about camp.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because. Well, because the original movie is so camp. And that was. And their tone was, let's play that shit up. And it's so good. They did, like, three readings of it in LA with Kristen Bell as Veronica Sawyer. And I would read about this because of the Reefer Madness connection.

[Chelsea Williams]

Wow. I didn't know that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I. I would knew Annalee Ashford.

[Chelsea Williams]

Did, like, a little.

[Matt Koplik]

They did it. Yeah. The new York premiere, technically speaking, was a concert at Joe's Pub, right in between Legally Blonde and Kinky Boots, like 2010. And she was Veronica and then unknown. Jeremy Jordan was JD or was he known at that point? I don't know if Bonnie Clyde had happened yet. Jenna Lee Green was the head Heather. James Snyder was one of the football jocks and I've seen videos of it. It's. It's fine. They. Annalee does not do all the vocal pyrotechnics that have become known for that show. But then they did the workshop production in LA with Barrett and Ryan. What's his. McCarten.

[Chelsea Williams]

McCarten, yeah, he was great.

[Matt Koplik]

He was very good. And then the show moved to New World Stages in March in 2014, where it played until August. And I saw it towards the end of the run when Barrett had left and it was. It was Carissa Hoagland who was very good.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes, I saw her. I think I see her. Saw her go on as Heather Chandler probably.

[Matt Koplik]

She went on a lot.

[Chelsea Williams]

One of the times that I saw it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, she was an ensemble girl who. That. Who was. Who swung on a lot. And her two main tracks were Heather Chandler and Veronica.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And she went on. Yeah, she went for Heather Chandler a lot at the beginning and then she started going on for Veronica a lot during.

[Chelsea Williams]

I mean.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, that girl's voice is a beast. Yeah, some. I mean, some people's voices just like sit in a certain register and I think hers just naturally sits up there, which, lucky for her.

[Chelsea Williams]

Just made of steel.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. And she's. She's in the very famous bootleg of the show as Heather Chandler that has helped get that show, the cult following that it's gotten.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And she's very good.

[Chelsea Williams]

But Jessica, what's her name? Keenan.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Who played the original Heather Chandler. Very interesting sound, but I thought she was really great. She's a really great actor.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I. So I saw her play Heather Chandler when I saw that towards the end of the run. And she was the only one acting style for me who got the tone of the movie.

[Chelsea Williams]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Because she didn't play it up. Because the musical does play it up, which I don't love the music. The movie is a very dark, razor sharp comedy. Very cynical, like very mean spirited.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it comes from a very angry place.

[Chelsea Williams]

Lots of suicide.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And so like the movie, it's important to recognize where the movie was coming from because it comes out of the last like tail end of the 80s after a slew of John Not John Waters. No, not John Waters.

[Chelsea Williams]

John Hughes.

[Matt Koplik]

John Hughes. John Hughes. Movies. Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles. I know. Same. We got. It's all. It's on there.

[Chelsea Williams]

John Hughes.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. John Hughes. Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles, Pretty in Pink, Some Kind of Wonderful. You know, these movies that are very iconic, and so many of them are so wonderful, but, like, they're very hopeful. Like, high school's an adventure. Sort of leaning into the Reaganomics Americana. Like, you know, our country is number one, and, like, it's the land of opportunity, if you have the gumption. What he's not saying is, like, you also need to have the money. And Heather's basically was a. Was an argument to that of, like, high school is actually kind of the worst.

[Chelsea Williams]

Terrible.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Children are awful to each other. Like, sociopathic towards each other, and, you.

[Chelsea Williams]

Know, and adults are useless.

[Matt Koplik]

Very much so. Yeah. And. And no one really wanted to hear that at the time. The movie was probably met with more critical acclaim than any of the John Hughes movies and bombed at the box office. And then, like, almost immediately got a following on home video. So, like, even though people like to say, oh, like, Heather's was such a box office disappointment, I'm like, But the turnaround was so quick because it immediately launched Winona Ryder and Christian Slater as movie stars, despite the fact that, quote, unquote, no one saw it. Another so good.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Hot.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Hot couple.

[Matt Koplik]

Hot couple. How do we get into this? Because I'm just talking about the movie right now, and I'm gonna talk about the movie a lot. So just buckle up, kids. Yeah, I'm gonna try to talk about the musical objectively as much as I can. Okay. You know what? Here's what we're gonna do.

[Chelsea Williams]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

When I asked people to give me topics they wanted us to cover for this episode, the number one thing mentioned all the time was that one of the big changes they made when the show went to London, because it was not in the West End at first, it was some, like, off West End production that then transferred and sold out. It was, like, a really, really big hit. And they made a lot. They made a lot of changes to it. One of the big ones was a song for Kurt and Ram, the two main high school jocks who JD And Veronica end up killing. And the song in deeply problematic, problematic characters.

[Chelsea Williams]

But, like, written to be problematic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Well, so this is the part where I. I would use problematic in the sense of. I just. I think that the writers kept on hitting their head against the wall for a moment that they shouldn't have worried about, which is in the movie, after Heather Chandler has been no more. And that's. What better way to say it. And they have her funeral. All this stuff in the movie. The second Heather. Heather McNamara asks Veronica if she will go on a double date with her. And curtain ran the football jocks. And Veronica's already with JD at this point, but she was like, fine, I'll do. I'll do you this favor. And in the movie, you know, they. The football jocks get drunk, and they take them out to the field for cow tipping. And then they immediately smash cut to ram date raping McNamara while Veronica sort of, like, stalks away. And then JD takes her away from there. And then other things happen, which we'll get to.

[Chelsea Williams]

It was dark, y'.

[Matt Koplik]

All. Yeah, well, and. And. And the way if you. I. I went into the screenplay to see if, like, it was written in a specific kind of way, if it was more interpretational, whatever. In the movie, in the screenplay, it's not written outwardly that that's what Ram is doing. Rather, he's saying, like, he is on top of a dispirited McNamara. And the director, I think, was like, let's go even hard on that. Let's not make it like she's not into it. Let's make it like she's actually resisting. Yeah, she's resisting. And later on, when she describes the encounter, she just describes it as sex, which I think is more of a comment on that kind of culture than what she actually was experiencing in the moment. But o' Keefe and Murphy were like, okay, let's make this scene a musical number, which is, in my mind, dare we say, problematic. Yeah. And so their original song was called Blue, and it was a comedy song, where in it Veronica goes, answers a call from McNamara and Duke, who are on this double date with Kurt and Ram, and she literally says, like, oh, so to save yourselves from date rape, you're setting me up for date rape? And McNamara goes, God, you make it sound so bad. Which is a fun line, but I'll. But it's not as smart. It's. It's more jokey. Whereas the movie, it's a little more twisted and curtain. Ram then just seem like this big kind of, like, clownish number about, like, veronica, you make my balls blue. And then they got some pushback on it when people saw the show, because some people like, oh, you're making fun of date rape. I'm like, I don't think they're making fun of date rape. I think they're just not. They. They just did a bad job, which.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, I think they're making fun of men.

[Matt Koplik]

They absolutely are.

[Chelsea Williams]

Teenage boys being idiots.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolute idiots. But I read this article that o' Keeffe and Murphy wrote for Playbill as they were making changes to Heather's for the West End. And they said, one of the things we have done is we've cut blue and we've wrote a new song because we think we can do better. And they were still in the process, like some other changes hadn't been done yet that they were hinting that they might do. And they said, you know, we got a lot of complaints from people that thought we were making fun of date rape. I'm like, we. We do not condone it in any way. We don't think it's funny. Hot take. Not a good thing. I'm like, oh, my God, you're so brave. Please say it louder for the people in the back.

[Chelsea Williams]

We as men do not endorse date rape.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you so much. O' Keefe and Murphy.

[Chelsea Williams]

Really? Again, these progressive liberal Democrats writing musicals.

[Matt Koplik]

Wow. Just putting themselves out on the line by saying it. Oh, my God. I know. They're really sacrificing self, but. So they write this new song called you're welcome, which is more of, like. I don't call it darker so much as that it. They. What they said was they wanted to make it much more clear the danger of the situation. And they wanted Veronica to have an inner monologue in the moment, which is what it is. She's like. She's calculating the risk and how she's going to get out of it, which she does do. And my honest take is there just should be no song there.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, I agree. We don't need one.

[Matt Koplik]

We don't need one.

[Chelsea Williams]

It's all right. It can just be a scene.

[Matt Koplik]

It can just be a scene. And the scene does need to be there, because when Veronica rejects Kurt in the movie as well as in the show, he retaliates the next day by telling everyone at school that he and Ram had a threesome with her.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Which, first of all, the seventh grade, not out of the closet gay boy. And me, when I watched the movie, the actors playing Curtain Ram are very attractive people. And part of me was like, please.

[Chelsea Williams]

Please show the threesome.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Because I was like, how dare they lie about that when I would have done so willingly. Like, they didn't need to be drugged, but I would have sent them out handwritten invitations to my home. Be like, sword fight here. Yes, please.

[Chelsea Williams]

You are cordially invited on Sunday, December to December.

[Matt Koplik]

December 3rd, to a threesome with Matt Koplik on the Lazy Susan.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes. Spin him right around and forth, back and forth. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't they get rid of the song that was in the Off Broadway version? Isn't. Isn't there a little. A little song about slut shaming Veronica at school the next day?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's.

[Chelsea Williams]

And I'm pretty sure that they got rid of that for the West End.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because it's a reprise of the song Blue.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I actually. And it's like the one thing about Blue that I like is that I think that reprise does pay off a little bit.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, again, it's. Is it a little simplistic? Yes, but it is. It's slut shaming and it's Heather Duke sort of taking the narrative that Veronica had this three way and using it to slander Veronica's name. Very quickly, the two reprises, they give Heather Duke in the Off Broadway version, like, those are solid reprises because then she also has the Shine a light reprise for McNamara, which are some of my better, my favorite lyrics in the show. But also, like, there's so little nuance in so many modern day musicals. And I don't think that the writers of Heather's the Musical are interested in that kind of nuance. They kind of. From what I gathered from all the information I read, they were much more interested in the hero's journey of Veronica than on the social commentary of the piece. Because in the movie, Veronica is not a nice person.

[Chelsea Williams]

No. Which makes her a very interesting character.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Actually, let me take that back. Veronica's not a kind person. She's nice. She's not kind because she has motives.

[Chelsea Williams]

That are very, like, very much, you know, she's self motivated to become popular, to get out of her small town to go to an Ivy League school to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. So it's very interesting to think about where the musical and the movie start because in the musical it starts with senior year. Veronica's unpopular and the whole opening number is how she gets in line with the Heathers and the movie. She's already popular and it's junior year and she's from what we understand, has been popular for a very long time.

[Chelsea Williams]

Veronica.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When the movie, when the movie begins, she's already with the Heathers. They're. And like there's already a rapport that gives you the indication that they've been a group for a while now. Because Veronica's over it. She's. She's not happy in her situation anymore. And.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes, okay, now it's coming back.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Like, she and Heather. She and Heather Chandler, the one that everybody fears. Like, Veronica's the only one who doesn't have, like, outward fear of Heather Chandler in the movie. She. She's the only one who's ever able to kind of, like, talk back to her a little bit. She can't talk back that much, as we learned. There's. There's a boundary. But in the opening scene, she's the only one who, like, actually converses with her, whereas everyone else, like, bows down. It's a different perspective. Whereas in the musical, she's an outsider who becomes popular for three weeks, and then it's sort of watching her, you know, sort of fight to survive the movie. You know, Larry o' Keefe and Kevin Murphy were like, we really wanted to know, like, how could such a nice, smart, empathetic girl get dragged into such a horrible scheme with JD and, like, she's not that sweet in the movie. She's pretty complicit. She does a lot of shitty things because even though she complains that Heather Chandler is a monster, that the hierarchy is unfair, she benefits from it. She doesn't want to lose her privilege, but she just wants everyone to get along with. Which is ultimately what I love about how the movie ends is, like, the change she makes is simply by going up to Martha Dunstock and saying, do you want to hang out tonight? I'm using my social cache to offer you a helping hand as opposed to, like, oh, let me, like, try to, you know, take down this one monster behind the scenes and that other monster, and then everything will be good. And the musical is, you know, no, let's watch this, like, hero fight against adversity. I'm like, veronica's kind of an anti hero, but the musical's not interested in that. They want the audience to like her as well as root for her. And I think in the movie, you root for her even when you don't always like her.

[Chelsea Williams]

Interesting. I do think the. The. Like, the. The moral dilemma that she goes through in the musical, you know, with writing the. The letter. The fake letter that Martha receives that she thinks is from her crush. I can't remember if it's Ram or.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's Ram.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, Ram. And then she reveal, you know, she. She has to go through a lot where she reckons with being a shitty person in order to benefit from being around the Heathers. And that, to me, is Interesting to watch.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's. It's. It's compelling musical theater. This is where, like, my bias comes in. I'm like, they're. They're on a musical theater level. They're doing what they should be doing. And I'm like, why am I not thrilled?

[Chelsea Williams]

But there is more of a desperation in the musical. Whereas Winona's Veronica, to me, is just kind of bored.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Which makes her a little. Yeah. Like, not as kind. The fact that she's just kind of, like, toying with people like jd who has this danger to him, and she's bored with the dynamic that she has with the Heathers. So she's like, how can I kind of, you know, disrupt this? Be a little chaotic.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because the role of Martha Dunstock in the musical is a combination of two characters in the movie. Martha Dunstock and Betty Finn.

[Chelsea Williams]

Okay. Yeah. Betty.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Betty is in the movie. Veronica's childhood friend.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Who she hasn't really been friends with for years now, but she's, like, still nice to her and, you know, whenever. But they never hang out. There's like, a moment where in the opening sequence, you know, Veronica apologizes for not being able to make it to Betty's party, and she's like, oh, it's okay. You had a date. I understand. And, like, which is just, you know, Veronica doesn't go to an event that she's personally invited to for a date. It's not like she had a college interview or, like, something real. It was something that you could always reschedule.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And in the movie, Martha Dunstock is a character we never hear from until the very, very end. She has no lines ever, and she's a punching bag all the time simply because of how she looks.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She's heavier. She's a little. I'm sorry. To, you know, use gender norms. Like, she's a little butch looking. And in 1989 Ohio, where gender norms are the status, where money is binary, very binary. And, like, there's a. There's a very specific kind of look you have to have, which we can also talk about with casting, with the musical as well. But, like, there's a very famous story that no. Winona Ryder really wanted to play Veronica. And I think they were looking for Jennifer Connelly, who had just done Labyrinth, who was, you know, very beautiful woman, but the writer and director of Heather's. She. No, Winona had just done Beetlejuice. They're like, you're not pretty enough, which is insane. I know. Well, we look back, we're like, that's insane. And Winona's always, like, to be fair to them, like, they had only seen me in Beetlejuice where I look like a ghoul. And. And for. And for, like, still. I know, but like, Hollywood of it all. Yeah. But the thing with Heather's is, like, it's not just that you have to be pretty. Like, it's a very specific stereotypical. What America has told young girls for decades now is pretty.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is thin, fluffy hair, a certain kind of makeup. Like, it's. It's not so much objectively pretty. So much it's a specific kind of look. And that's important because the only reason why Veronica is in the Heathers is because she also has money. And, you know, something happens when you. When children start to develop and hormones and sexual attraction come into play, you start to recognize, like, who's attracting other people based solely on their looks, which.

[Chelsea Williams]

Is power, absolute power.

[Matt Koplik]

And especially for, you know, someone like Heather Chandler. Recognizing that Veronica is just as stereotypically attractive as she is. She's like, the only way that this girl will not undermine my authority is if she joins allies. Exactly. So, like, the mo. The musical makes it that Veronica joined senior year of high school. They don't ever say in the movie.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

When it happens. My theory is that it happened sometime in middle school.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. They, like, grew up together. They've known each other for a long time.

[Matt Koplik]

They all. Yeah, they all grew up together. And then somewhere in middle school and they all started to develop. Veronica joined the. The clique, and she willingly did so because they had made sense. Exactly. And Heather even says her in the movie at some point. Like, you used to have a sense of humor, which means, like, for a long time, Veronica was totally okay with everything that they all did. It's only recently that she's having this existential crisis.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

What's a song you really love in this musical? And why?

[Chelsea Williams]

Okay, there's a couple, obviously. Dead Girl Walking. Great song. It's a great, great build. Like you were talking about. It's it as a God. How old was I when I came out? Like, 22 year old. When I first saw it, it was, like, vocally everything I wanted to do. Now, not so much.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Chelsea Williams]

We're playing a little safer these days, but, yeah, I was a big fan of Barrett Wilbert Weed back in the day, and I just thought she was incredible and had such a unique sound, and I loved the darkness of it and how open she was about being A sexual teenager and like she's drunk in the song. It's very messy, it's very forward, it's very edgy. I also love JD's song meant to be Yours. And I dream, I dream of singing that in some sort of, you know, not that we have gender bent cabarets anymore. We're a little past that, but you know what I mean? I, I'd love to, I'd love to give that one a go.

[Matt Koplik]

Is pronoun showdown no longer happening?

[Chelsea Williams]

I feel like probably not. I hope not.

[Matt Koplik]

I, I don't know, I don't pay attention. I just like, remember for a while, like every three months there'd be some like, slew of videos.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I didn't realize, by the way, that pronoun showdown was like, it's not just gender meant, but also like, you have to change all of the pronouns too. So like, Ryan McCarten did do Degar walking, but he did it from the point of view of jd. So it's like you had to wake me and I'm like, just sing the song with the lyrics. I don't care.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, who doesn't? Who can't relate to the lyric? I, I see I decided I must ride you till I break you.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, I'm sorry. That's everyone. Every single person.

[Chelsea Williams]

Hot and piston on the pill.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

I mean, the song ends if you haven't seen it on stage, if you've only listened to it. The very end of the song where they're, they are literally.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

And the final. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's riding him.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Shirt off, bra on. And I just, I just, in the audience as a young person, I was like, this is a thrill and a half. Like, this is what I like. Considering that so many musicals are very like, tame and, you know, sex is not really portrayed. It's only implied or like, it's, it's more about romance and less about, like, sexual desire. And that's something that I loved about Heather's, is how like raunchy and real in that way it was of like having this, this boundless sexual energy as a teenager. Very hormonal. And I thought that they captured that pretty well in that song. And also I could really relate to being attracted to this dark energy of jd. I'll admit it. It's fine. There's something so twisted about their love affair and toxic. Just thought it was extremely hot back in the day. Christian Slater too, you know, just, just, you know, you remember those, those guys that are just like, Slightly unhinged. And you see them and you're like, you would do things to me that like all these other men unhinged or like, claim to want to do. But, oh, really, it comes down to it, JD will toss you around.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Although, I mean, in the show, she's the one who's breaking him, right? Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Because I think it unlocks something for her and.

[Matt Koplik]

And that eventually unlocks something in him. They talk about this with the writing of the show where, like, in the movie, JD's much more of a sociopath who like plots throughout and Veronica is kind of along for the ride. And the musical they. What they chose, which I think is actually a very interesting way to go about it, is they make him a, you know, very in pain teenager who's, you know, the first 20ish minutes numb inside, which is literally a lyric. And der walking that ice make pet fat pain with more pain. But when in degree walking, there's that bridge where Veronica says to him, like, you know, you say you're numb inside, but I don't agree. And then he eventually says, later on in the musical, like, you unlocked something in me. And now, like, all of my feelings are coming out. And the. It's sort of like JD's had a breakthrough, but the problem with the breakthrough is, like, there isn't growth behind it. It's like it's just pure chaos and madness.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. He needs to be medicated.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. But that. That edge that you talk about, I think it's like an excitement that of something that's new and different, that ultimately, you know, it never ends out up well for anybody, anytime.

[Chelsea Williams]

You know, like, it might feel good to have someone be obsessed with you, but it's never going to end well.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Like, every time there's like the quote, unquote bad boy in any work, any story, it never ends well. You know, we talk about Gilmore Girls and people were so Team Jess. I was team Jess when I was a kid. And I look back on it now and I look at that storyline. It's so fascinating because you could call the Roy Jess thing problematic, but Amy Sherman Paladino, to her credit, like, very much acknowledges early on that this relationship is not a good idea and it's not going to end well. And, you know, you become a lesser version of yourself when you start catering to the needs of someone who has nothing figured out for themselves at all. You lose part of yourself as you try to adhere to what? To the randomness of this bad boy Persona.

[Chelsea Williams]

You know, I feel like I Know, I. I've never seen Gilmore Girls hateful, but I. But I feel like this is a very classic trope of a relationship. Yeah, I'm sure I understand what you mean.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, one thing that somebody wrote in was like hateful. So hateful. Oh, actually, before we go any further, we have to take a quick break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Chelsea Williams]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back.

[Chelsea Williams]

We're back.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, welcome to the pod Chelsea, where we have monetization, we have commercial.

[Chelsea Williams]

I'm happy for you.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you. I make dollars upon dollars.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I make enough money per month to see a movie.

[Chelsea Williams]

For now.

[Matt Koplik]

For now I should. Now I would say I make enough money to see three movies a month.

[Chelsea Williams]

Wow. Do you want to sponsor Matt, you want to sponsor Broadway Breakdown? Come on.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, come on.

[Chelsea Williams]

Call your people.

[Matt Koplik]

Call your representatives, people. Yes, you did. We got George Santos out of Congress. Now let's do it again. Let's get me in Congress.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes. Oh my God. Let's burn this shit to the ground.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, God. If I would get in there, I would just start writing everyone while singing Dead Girl Walking and we would get shit done. Actually, one thing I do love about Dead Girl Walking just is the truly the agency of Veronica in that number of just the.

[Chelsea Williams]

It's really satisfying. Dead Girl Walking in the musical is so satisfying because it's right after she goes to this hellish party where a lot of shit goes wrong. She throws up on Heather Chandler and everyone turns against her. And after she's worked so hard to rise in the ranks with the Heathers, they're like, you're gonna be essentially canceled at school. Like you couldn't transfer anywhere where you'd be safe after this. So she's like it all. I'm going to go for what I really want. And I'm going to this like crazy guy who's been obsessed with me. And it just like it's was very thrilling to watch. I just remember being like, yes, like the chaos. Go for it. It's. And. And it's matched musically.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I. Remind me. I want to talk about the party. Cuz that's actually something where I think they, in my opinion, actually shat the bed. Based on the party in the movie and how it is in the show, I'm like, I don't think you understand the details of the party of the movie. But then that's juxtaposed by Dead Girl Walking. I'm like, oh, here's a change I like.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And a song where, again, he said, like, the music does match that energy, and it does build in a really satisfying way. And I think the lyrics are very clever.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Come on. You know the drill. I'm hot and pissed and on the pillow. So good. And I think what I like about what Barrett does in it is she has that blase attitude that Winona is so perfect of in the movie, juxtaposed with the, like, ferociousness of the vocals.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So it doesn't feel like she's. She's not playing it up in a way that I think a lot of Veronica's have in, you know, subsequent amateur productions or regional productions. She's just. The dryness of her tone makes it funnier.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

The dead face of her sh.

[Chelsea Williams]

Sh.

[Matt Koplik]

And all that.

[Chelsea Williams]

I don't really want, like, a wholesome Veronica. I don't want a Veronica. That's like a classic ingenue.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And I think part of my issue is reading what Kevin Murphy and Larry o' Keefe talk about with writing the musical, even though, like, it is bonkers and edgy in all these ways, because it has to be if it's based off of the movie. Like, they did go for ultimately a more wholesome Heathers when musicalizing it like that. There. They kept saying, we kept thinking about the positive. Keep playing the positive. I'm like, it's Heather's dude.

[Chelsea Williams]

Right?

[Matt Koplik]

There is no positive. It's all acid laced candy.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But I digress. What is a song you don't like? Besides blue? Obviously.

[Chelsea Williams]

I don't like Candy Store. I'll just say it. Do you.

[Matt Koplik]

Do I like it?

[Chelsea Williams]

I bring that one up because it's. I feel like that's one of the more popular songs from the show.

[Matt Koplik]

It is.

[Chelsea Williams]

And it just doesn't hit for me.

[Matt Koplik]

Do I like it? No. Do I listen to it on the treadmill? Absolutely. It's. It's a song where it's not unmelodic. It's not like the lyrics are terrible for me. It's just not a number that Heather Chandler sings.

[Chelsea Williams]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Does that make sense? It's like, this is. Guys, this is how you know Chelsea Williams and I have known each other for 15 years. Jesus Christ. She. She will tell me straight out. You're making no sense. Explain yourself.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're gonna have to give me a second. Second try here.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so, okay, here is Something that I actually appreciated about the Mean Girls musical. And I say something because it's like one of five things. When they introduced Regina George in the musical, her opening number is not a high belting number. It's. It's very quiet. It's low, it's sultry. And Jeff Richmond, the composer, slash Tina Fey's husband, said he had this idea of Regina George being in. Introduced as like a Bond villain. He goes. And Bond villains never come in with a bang. They come in very quietly. Yeah, exactly. Because they've got nothing to prove. Yeah, I loved that. And I have audio of the very first preview of mean girls in D.C. and when Taylor begins that, my name is Richie, the audience loses it.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because they. They are expecting Candy Store, but instead they get goldeneye, the theme song.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. And very smart.

[Matt Koplik]

Very smart.

[Chelsea Williams]

And you get the payoff later when she sings her huge.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When she sings World Burn. And I mean, that's the other one, the other songs. And listen, I have issues with Mean Girls as well. I've talked about it before. Every song in Mean Girls, for the most part, is melody, melody, melody. Final verse goes up the octave and then they close it out. I'm like, that's not a build. And you're. And you're destroying women's voices. But we will get to that subject later.

[Chelsea Williams]

Help. Help. Sos.

[Matt Koplik]

Sos. Stop ruining women. I love them too much. They give me so much in this world. But we'll get to her destroying voices later as we talk about Heather's. But this is true. But.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But so like, with. With Heather Chandler. And I guess this is how I can also sort of talk about the party. I'm going to talk about an element of the party as I talk about Heather Chandler, and then we'll talk about it more so later. But Heather is truly a cool, calm, collected dictator of her school. She doesn't rule necessarily with fear. Not outward fear, anyway. She's not brazen.

[Chelsea Williams]

She's never trying that hard.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she's very confident. There's a great moment in the movie in that opening sequence in the cafeteria when they're doing the lunchtime poll. I'm sorry, I just love the movie so much.

[Chelsea Williams]

Paint the picture.

[Matt Koplik]

Paint the picture. So Heather Chandler, in the movie, one of her things is, like, she would always conduct the lunchtime poll that would get put in the newspaper every week. And so Heather always has to come up with the question. And it's a dumb, dumb question of, like, you. You win that publisher sweepstake competition and the same day that you get the five million dollar check, aliens land on the earth and say they're gonna blow it up in two days. What do you do with the money? And, like, Veronica has to stand there as they go to, like, all the popular kids and, like, roll her eyes. And ultimately Veronica convinces Heather to talk to, like, the less popular people just by, like, outwardly being a bitch to the. To the popular rich kids. But one of the things she says to her is, like, doesn't it bother you that everyone in the school thinks you're a piranha? And Heather says, without missing a beat, I could give a shit. They all want me as a friend or a fuck. I am worshiped at Westerberg and I'm only a junior. And she says it was such authority. Fuck me gently with the chainsaw. Do I look like Mother Teresa to you?

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, my God. I need it as a bumper sticker. I need it as a T shirt.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Chelsea Williams]

I need it on a hat, but like, me gently with a chainsaw.

[Matt Koplik]

But Heather also knows the importance of decorum. Like, you don't outwardly mock people. You do it privately and very intelligently. Because when they're doing. The whole conversation happens because they're doing the question to a bunch of the yuppie kids. And no one actually likes Heather. Like, they're like, oh, fuck, here she comes. And then she shows up. And the moment Heather compliments, like, one of their cardigans, they get, like, very flustered. And when one of the girls goes, if I had that money, I give it all to the homeless, every cent. And Veronica just looks and goes, you're beautiful, and walks away. And Heather goes, if you're gonna outwardly be a bitch, like, she's like, you can't just do.

[Chelsea Williams]

So twisted.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, Heather is so calculated and evil, but she's like, you don't do that in public, you idiot.

[Chelsea Williams]

There are rules.

[Matt Koplik]

There. There are rules. But what? That. That calm, cool collectedness is important to Heather, which is why I think Candy Store is not her song. She needs a song that is much more like that kind of energy that I. My Name is Regina George number. I don't love the. Like, it's a. It's a fun bob of a number that, like, if you were to tell me, you know, in the sense of, like, no.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not unmelodic. I just don't think it fits.

[Chelsea Williams]

I mean, I. I didn't even like the choreography.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, I don't like the choreography of the original production. I think it's messy.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, totally. And just kind of basic. Like, I just. Of Candy Store specifically, I was like, you know.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, they play into the, like the sexiness of it. That the thing you love so much about Dead Girl Walking is actually the opposite of that in Candy Store, which I think you could argue if it were done better, is a commentary that Heather's play sex. But Heather actually goes out and rides someone.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, but Veronica does.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry, Veronica does.

[Chelsea Williams]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But I don't think that the choreography is good enough for that to really land. I think because the Heathers don't. In the movie, they don't play sexy, they just play power.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They're. They've got nothing to prove. They're just so naturally beautiful. Everybody wants them.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And like. And so fascinating is the way that, like, Veronica dresses. Veronica doesn't dress super feminine. Like, she has these giant overcoats and, like big padded shoulders. And yet all the guys in school are still like, I want her over most of the other Heathers. And it's that sort of not caring attitude of like, it. I'm. It doesn't matter what I wear, even though what I wear still happens to be iconic. And there's such a try hard quality to some. To a lot of the music of Heather's and how they musicalize those characters that I don't get the power. I just get, you know, edgy.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, yeah. I am reminded of the line. I think it's in the opening. It's in beautiful. When the Heathers are first being introduced and that guy, just random, random ensemble guy says, I'd like to photograph Heather naked and tied up in an abandoned warehouse and leave her for the rats. Honestly, that, to me, did capture the spirit of the movie. These people laud the Heathers.

[Matt Koplik]

They.

[Chelsea Williams]

They're obsessed with them. They would do anything for them. And they fantasize about doing the worst things to them. Like, that encapsulates the Heathers on the whole completely in that we, like, we follow these rules and we. We respect the chain of command, but we wish secretly that we could just like tear them to bits. And like, we fantasize about the worst possible things. Like, everyone's a bad person. Yeah, everyone.

[Matt Koplik]

We're all selfish.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Like, no one is an angel.

[Matt Koplik]

We're toxic meatbags roaming this earth.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes. And I love that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like, that's the Heather's makes the movie specifically, I think appealed to me so much when I first saw it, because I was like, yes, I'm a shitbag. I'm Terrible. I love. We're all. We all suck. Like, why are we all pretending like we're angels or like our moral compasses are actually. I mean, of course they are. Okay, we'll pretend that they're getting us somewhere. They are. We all have an ethical code, but, like, we all also have deep, dark, twisted fantasies. And I like that. I like that. The film really puts that on display.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, we're all just naturally predators, and it's. It's our more developed brains that have taught us the immorality of just constantly being on the defense and on the prowl and. But that clashes within us all the time. I mean, listen, you and I both have had life experiences that have taught us that. How, like, we do this, how other people do this. Every time we think we've become more evolved as a species, something happens in our lives where we go, oh, right. We're all just toxic animals.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Who?

[Chelsea Williams]

Ellen. You know, like, huge. Like these icons. Everyone has skeletons in their closet. Everyone has deep, dark desires that they wouldn't want out in the public. And we secretly. I mean, I will speak for you all when I say we secretly love it when it comes out that someone who has been revered as being perfect is actually just like the rest of us in that they can be mean, they can be foul. They want to have weird sex. They want to, like, you know, it's like, it's human.

[Matt Koplik]

And. And our predatorial instincts kick in when that happens, because then rather than say, oh. Rather than us going, oh, you're human, too, and I recognize that. That makes me feel better. It's. I can feel even better now. Of tearing you down.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Especially women. Oh, especially. We love to tear them down.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, sure. Oh, sure. I love nothing more than to tear down a powerful woman. It makes me forget for five minutes that I have absolutely no footprint in this world when I say that. Ellen DeGeneres can go to Helen.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Wow. Some of your finest work.

[Matt Koplik]

So. My finest work. I'm a.

[Chelsea Williams]

We love women.

[Matt Koplik]

Speak for yourself. You don't speak for everyone. Chelsea Williams, Broadway Breakdown, hates women.

[Chelsea Williams]

I'm a proud woman.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You want to keep that secret? Only men are allowed to be proud women. Okay.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, my God. Have we learned 2023?

[Matt Koplik]

Is it, though? Have we learned nothing from this? From this entire series? From this, from this industry? The only people who are allowed to be proud women are men.

[Chelsea Williams]

Wait.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay.

[Chelsea Williams]

I want to know which song you really like.

[Matt Koplik]

I do like Dead Girl Walking. Bop, bop, bop. My issue with Heather's often is My contrast of this really works as a musical theater song, but I don't think it always works for Heathers. It's similar to me with the Wild Party, the Andrew Lippa version, where I'm like, you made this poem fit relatively well for the structural structure of musical theater, but I don't think you actually did justice to the poem.

[Chelsea Williams]

Okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Which we don't have to get into. I've talked about that enough already. But love the Wild Party. I love the liqueur, the Wild Party, and I love songs from the Lip. A Wild Party. I love it. Those. I've done that show, and when I see people do songs from it in cabaret, it's like, yeah, this song stops and then you watch. And then you watch it in context.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're like, okay, see, I've never. Yeah, that's my problem. I've never seen it on stage. But that the cast. Recording.

[Matt Koplik]

Cast is great.

[Chelsea Williams]

Lives with me.

[Matt Koplik]

Those vocals are insane. And I had. I did have a very long conversation with someone involved with the LIPA Wild Party accidentally. So. Welcome to the podcast, everybody. We're back. We're back on the tangents. But. So, like, I make jokes that, like, I'm the least famous Broadway podcaster and all this other shit and, like, for now. But. But the truth is, like, I. In the last, like, two years, I have gotten to know a lot more people in the industry. I'm not. I wouldn't say that I'm like, a part of it, but I. I am. I know people now. So I. I'm a little more careful about, like, when I'm being a twat about my opinions.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But. So I had someone write a review of the podcast a while back that was like, I love this podcast. And Matt will tell you, like, all the right things, like, which one's the better Wild Party? And someone involved in LIPA1 saw it and he was like, so which is the better one? I was like, well, do you want me to actually.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like, It's a matter of opinion.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And by. I was like, by the way, we're having this conversation while you're at your lake house and I'm at my desk job for my temp job. Like, can recognize the levels here. I'm like, I don't love that I have to talk you off the ledge right now with, you know, your comfort, but this person is a friend. And, like, it was just me saying, like, here's what I like and don't like about this LIPA version. What I do and don't like about the Lachiusa one. And bringing it back to Heather's ultimately was, you know, the poem of the Wild party is plotless, but it is a very dark, cynical look into monsters of human beings, especially in the entertainment industry, which it was like the first expose of. Hey, those entertainers who make you laugh and cry in the theater when they go home. They fuck like weirdos and they do coke and they do all these crazy things.

[Chelsea Williams]

Depraved.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which we all are. Think. I mean, think about the worst thing any person's ever done in your life. Like, I guarantee you they've done something worse than what you're thinking of. It's just. It's just who we are. And the hope is you learn from it, bounce back from it, and try not to get that dark again. But the Lippa one's like, I want to add catharsis. I want to add, you know, an origin story to the Queenie Burrs relationship and all this stuff. And Lachius version is like, it doesn't matter how Queenie and Burrs met. They're here now. They're fucking. It's miserable because it's violent and abusive. And, like, we have empathy for them as human beings, but we also don't have sympathy for them. And I think Lippo wants to add empathy and sympathy. And it's the same thing with the Heather's musical. They want sympathy for JD And Veronica. Whereas the movies, like, you can empathize because who doesn't feel like an outsider? Who doesn't feel like pressure is always coming down on you? But don't sympathize with them. Like, even Veronica.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, they're making bad choices.

[Matt Koplik]

Constant bad choices. There is a great twist of a moment in the movie, which they turn into a number in the show, when. So when Kurt and Ram tell everyone that they had the sword fight in Veronica's mouth in the movie and in the musical, which women look at that and they go, how dare they? And I look at that, and I'm like, please tell everyone that we did it.

[Chelsea Williams]

Wow, Sounds uncomfortable. Chelsea, don't.

[Matt Koplik]

The best work you do comes when you're uncomfortable.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

It's like you didn't go to theater school, Kurt.

[Chelsea Williams]

Okay, what's the song that comes out of this moment?

[Matt Koplik]

Chelsea, how dare you Bring us back to the topic. But. So she, Veronica and JD get their revenge by staging curtain Ram in a double suicide situation with a letter. Erotic with. Yes, with a letter claiming that they were lovers and that the homophobia of the world Meant that they couldn't survive it, which is, of course, not true. It was. It was them having fun at their expense. Veronica choosing to believe that the bullets they have are tranquilizers, darts, and then learning too late that they're not.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And at their funeral, I think it's Ram's dad or Kurt's dad. It doesn't matter who in the movie, he, you know, is crying over his son's body and says, I love my dead gay son. And that becomes iconic. Great, great line. And it becomes. Yes, and it becomes the A number in Act 2 because it's such an iconic line. But what the movie does with that line is, you know, JD And Veronica are at the funeral, and it's the second one they've been to because Heather Chandler had a funeral. And JD Whispers in Veronica's ear, how do you think he would have felt about a gay son with a pulse, ultimately saying, like, you know, if it were alive, you would not love your dead gay son. And it makes Veronica start to laugh. And as she's laughing, a little girl in the front row, who's probably like, Kurta, Ram's sister, wearing their letter jacket, turns around hearing it with tears in her eyes. And it makes Veronica stop. And she realizes, like, we're having fun at their expense. Like, people are being affected by our actions. And it's just a quick moment. And it's a turning point for her for sure, because at the. At that time, all she can think about is the awfulness of the people that they have killed and her.

[Chelsea Williams]

The power and control that they're. They have over these people. They're playing people like puppets.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And JD Keeps convincing Veronica that they've been doing the right things. Heather Chandler was a monster. We did the right thing by getting rid of her. And, hey, by the way, we accidentally did her a solid by writing her this beautiful suicide note. So now people think she's someone she never actually was. And curtain. Ram. And what JD Says to her is like, you know, they. What does it matter if they're dead? What were they going to contribute to the world but more pain, right? And so Veronica's like, sure, you're right. And then she was like, but we. But, like, we've actually caused pain now because they're people who did love these guys, and they are gonna be forever traumatized by this, isn't there?

[Chelsea Williams]

There's a line in the musical, in the opening number where Veronica says she's introducing Ram or the other one. She's like, he's the smartest guy on the football team, which is kind of like. And then I think she says something about, like, little people.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Which is. She says it's kind of like being the tallest dwarf. That's the line.

[Chelsea Williams]

There it is.

[Matt Koplik]

Going back to that party I was talking about. So this is a detail that I think is very important to the person that Heather Chandler is. And again, how she sort of rules the school. In the musicale, it is a high school parte that everyone is at. And depending on your staging, Heather Chandler could be making out with Kurt or Ram. It doesn't matter who. But I know in the. I think she's. She's basically like, dry humping Kurt in the movie. It is not the high school party they go to. It is a college party.

[Chelsea Williams]

Stakes are a little higher.

[Matt Koplik]

A little higher. Heather Chandler does not go to high school parties. She only goes to college parties.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And in fact, there's a line she has with Veronica when they're playing croquet, which I don't think they actually ever do in the musical. No, they do very quick. They do. They play croquet, like, for one second or whatever. Yeah. But they're playing croquet. And it's after JD has shot blanks at curtain Ram in the movie, and they're talking about, like, who he is and how crazy he is. And Heather says, veronica, like, you sound pretty interested. I thought you'd given up on high school boys. Implying that Veronica has sort of taken Heather Chandler's lead of, you know, high school guys are. Are. They're children. We. We go for older men. And she brings Veronica along, just the two of them, to this college party. And so while Heather plays a big game in high school because she's the biggest fish in a small pond at the party, you see how she's. Even though they've leveled up, quote, unquote, she's no longer, like, the dominant one. When they get there, they get there. They're, like, already a little overdressed.

[Chelsea Williams]

And you see her in, like, a little bit of a weaker state than normal.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because the guy that she's sort of kind of seeing is, like, definitely has power over her.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

They show up because Veronica's there basically to be, like, the. The double date for Heather's guy. And it's. It's such an awkward. It's a brilliant moment because they show up. Yeah, they show up and they're like, you girls, bring your party hats on. And she's like, let's party. And the boys then start like, whispering to each other.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. They're like prey.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And you can see how Heather and Veronica, like, Veronica knows that that's what they are, but she's. And she's already kind of, like, over it. Heather's pretending it's not the case, but she knows it's the case. And you see how the actress is, like, trying to keep her head up high, but she knows that she's now vulnerable.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. She feels the threat.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the next time we see her, he has taken her away into his room, and she's like, can we go back to the party? He goes, eventually.

[Chelsea Williams]

Statutory.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. He's like, but you're just so hot. And he makes her perform oral sex on him. And the next time we see Heather after that is she's in the bathroom gargling water, looks at herself and spits at her reflection.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, my God, it's so good. Why do we like this?

[Matt Koplik]

Why do we like it?

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's because it's so dark, but it's so real. And it just. I find that it. I don't know, it really fulfills me to watch something like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think what it does is it talks about the things that people don't want to talk about.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I mentioned it for a hot second earlier, and I need you to watch it eventually. I watched it last night, so it's just immediately on my brain. The new movie, May December on Netflix.

[Chelsea Williams]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

With Natalie Portman, Julianne Moore and Charles Melton. And Julianne Moore's character, who is, you know, Mary Kay Letourneau. Is that her name? That's basically who she's playing. The older woman who had the affair with the seventh grader and now they're married and it's 24 years later. Yeah. It's the whole thing. And talk about, like, melodramatic camp. But her, like, her character's trait is, like, she doesn't like to dwell on the past, and she doesn't like to talk about sad things. And the response. The result of that is, like, she has bouts of crying fits in the middle of the night for no reason because she's just constantly repressing.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Unprocessed trauma or like. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Like, if you're sad, be sad and talk about it. Like, get through it. If the things are bothering you. No. Open up about them. And if something's not working, like, you have to either fix it or you have to walk away. And Heather's is a movie that just Boldly is like, hey, it's all kind of terrible. Even, like the good stuff can be terrible. And life is pain and, and the people, and the people of the power in one space, they go to the next space and they become the prey. And, you know, they do things they don't want to do.

[Chelsea Williams]

No one is exempt from suffering. Well, obviously that deserves a little bit more nuance, but, like, suffering is a part of life. And I think when. When a picture is painted of someone who is. Who is perfect and, and privileged to the point that it seems like they don't experience any suffering, when you get those flashes of self loathing or pain, anything like that, it's like, aha. It feels like. It feels like you. You caught something like human. Human and, and special. And it feels special because it happens so quickly and it's gone. Which is why, you know, Ellen, you know, when people rise so high, like they will fall and we see it happen, we're like, wow, we are witnessing. Yeah, something really special right now. And it's. It's just nice to have that reminder that everyone hates themselves at some point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Is it safe to say that? Absolutely, I think so.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, God.

[Chelsea Williams]

Whether you're willing to admit it or.

[Matt Koplik]

Not, I think self. To have self awareness means sometimes you will have self loathing because that's why.

[Chelsea Williams]

Geniuses are like, you know, often prone to bleed madness.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, well, we can. We can say unalive.

[Chelsea Williams]

Unal.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, listen, this, this. Well, but this whole podcast is. Has been covering a lot of topics that are very sensitive, and I've been.

[Chelsea Williams]

Saying thusly, why this falls under the problematic umbrella.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, because I think, because once you start talking about things like suicide, murder, date rape, things like that, you know, the question becomes, how are you approaching it? And if there's anything resembling humor, people go, no, no, no, you cannot do that. And first of all, humor does not necessarily mean you are lessening the impact of something that you are making fun of something. Making fun of victims. If you can find humor out of the darkest things in the world, I think that's a specific kind of genius.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, the Pillow Man, I think, is one of the most brilliant plays of the last 30 years, and it finds humor out of one of the most twisted stories I've ever seen. But. And we just did. John Patrick Shanley, Martin McDonough.

[Chelsea Williams]

We love you, Martin McDonough.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, John.

[Chelsea Williams]

Well, John Patrick Shanley, dreamer, examines his pillow. That's what I was getting the two pillows mixed up. My theater school. Sorry, it's been a minute.

[Matt Koplik]

It's been a minute. But also John Patrick Shanley with Doubt. He Doubt.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

There is humor in Doubt that people don't realize because it's so dramatique.

[Chelsea Williams]

Get ready, Tyne Daily.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, my fucking can't wait. I cannot wait. It's so fascinating to me that for me, like, the two events of the spring season of Broadway are Uncle Vanya and Doubt.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone's like, what about Saps of Lempicka? I'm like, they exist, they're there. I hope they're good. But like Doubt and Uncle Vanya, especially with that fucking cast of Vanya.

[Chelsea Williams]

Be there with bells on.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. Who needs poppers when you've got that cast? Anika Nani Rose doing check off with Steve Carells.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're going to walk out of Vanya just wide open, ready to go.

[Matt Koplik]

That is. So when Veronica and JD are like planting the evidence that Kurt and Rain were gay with like a signed Joan Crawford postcard, I'm like, if they had tickets for the Lincoln Center Theater, Uncle Vanya, everyone would be like, they were gay with it. With signed by Nikon Oni Rose. They're like, they were homosexuals. Yeah. I don't know any straight men who are as obsessed with Anika as I am. But again, that's where I was. A special child. I was. I was a 13 year old, 14 year old who saw Carolina Change.

[Chelsea Williams]

Okay. I was like, when were you first? I feel like I first. I'm. I'm not as cultured as you growing up in New York City. I feel like I first knew her from Princess and Princess and the Frog.

[Matt Koplik]

Probably, or the Dream Girls movie. But she wasn't. Her part wasn't really big in the Dream Girls movie. They cut a lot of her. A lot of her stuff. Yeah, No, I. I am very cultured, as we all know. I saw Angels in America at the prime age of 19.

[Chelsea Williams]

Wow. And like, what else is there to know about theater, really? You might as well get an honorary doctorate.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah, no, I've. I've gone to Charlotte St. Martin of the Broadway League, and I said, I'm taking your wig and I'm taking your shoes and I am now the president or whatever you are of this league.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes. Yep. Yeah. I think, despite its problems, Heather's. We're back to Heather's now. I'm back to Heather's now, which is in, you know, like the writing and the direction and the conception and the choreography. I love it. Ultimately, because of its willingness to deal with some of These really dark themes with humor.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

And I really reject the idea that we should stay away from topics like, like unaliving and, you know, date rape. Things that are, you know, they exist. They exist.

[Matt Koplik]

They have to be. They have to be dealt with because they exist.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And it's not about, you know, trying to make excuses. It's just. It's just simply dealing with it, making it part of the conversation. Because otherwise how are you gonna, you know, take it on in the real world? It has to be addressed. I think my issue with the musical and why some people have found it problematic is the fact that it doesn't go as hard as I want it to because the movie does go incredibly hard.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And the. What's interesting is they both. I mean, the ending is similar. Obviously. They have to go towards this conclusion where JD plans to blow up the school, then ends up blowing himself up. And the musical aims for a kind of big Broadway hopefulness.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

To get the audience going out on a high. And the movie ends on a very quiet note.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the, it's the first brick to building like a hopeful and even playing field for Westerberg with Veronica grabbing the scrunchie and going to Martha Dunstock and saying, let's go have a movie night.

[Chelsea Williams]

She also lights a cigarette off of the fire. I know of the blown up football field, which. Yeah, iconic.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's also weirdly kind of like it calls back to that lunchtime poll because that's how Veronica and JD first meet in the movie is they're doing the lunchtime poll and she, she keeps seeing Christian Slater in the corner and in his like, black jacket and looking smoldering. And she finally just walks over to him and does the lunchtime poll and he says, yeah, I guess if it were the last day on earth, I would go out into the lake with some tequila, my sack, some bak, and just, you know, light up and, and wait for it to end and which, like, she loves. She's like, oh my God, you're so bad. But like, we look at that and we go like, oh my God, this poser, he's like, I'm sorry, sorry. No, no. What is he?

[Chelsea Williams]

My lunchtime poll is. Do you think if JD existed now as a Gen Z kid, he would be into anime probably. Like, he's so close to having incel vibes, but still manages to be like, sexy and alluring. It's. That's a tough.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I think if that's the thing.

[Chelsea Williams]

It'S the trench coat really?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so this is. This is another thing that kind of. You can ask with something like Heather's both the movie and the musical. If JD didn't look like JD Would he be sexy?

[Chelsea Williams]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Would his actions be sexy like a.

[Chelsea Williams]

Black trench coat is?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. If Heather hits the middle of a.

[Chelsea Williams]

Venn diagram of two very different types of people.

[Matt Koplik]

If Heather Chandler didn't look like Heather Chandler, would she have any kind of power? She's got money, but like, that's. What does that mean? You know, It's a big part of it. Yeah. And it's. Again, it's not something people like to talk about, but it is something that's very real. And it came actually in under scrutiny when the West End production happened because Carrie St. Louis. No, I. Carrie St. Louis. She's here. Carrie Hope Fletcher.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Who is extraordinarily talented and has just been working non stop in the West End for years. When she got cast as Veronica, there were a lot of Americans who loved the show who had backlash against her casting. I didn't know that it's stupid because the. Their belief was. It was the same belief that of Dan Waters and the director saying, like, Winona Ryder's not pretty enough to be Veronica. They're like, she's not pretty enough to be Veronica.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, but in the musical she goes through that whole Cinderella transformation.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I'm also of the mind frame of, you know, with the musical.

[Chelsea Williams]

Which doesn't mean I agree that Carrie's not. I mean, she's.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a beautiful woman. She's got a head of hair that I would murder a mailbox for. Not a person I'm not there yet. But I would destroy some federal property for her.

[Chelsea Williams]

Nice.

[Matt Koplik]

For her hair. Yeah, but it's a crime. It is. Listen, it is a crime. I'm a bad boy.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're a bad boy. You don't have a black trench coat.

[Matt Koplik]

But no, I don't look like J.D. and I never will. And that's okay.

[Chelsea Williams]

I'm also love to see you as JD With a black trench coat trailing on the ground.

[Matt Koplik]

I would just be like flipping it out. Hey, everybody, freeze your brain. It's a heart. That's a hard thing. But it is with Carrie. You know, she's not. She doesn't look like Winona Ryder and she doesn't look like a Heather. And I think what some people stupidly were trying to. Not stupid. They were trying to make this case. And doing it stupidly was the point of Veronica is that even though she starts an Outsider. The whole reason she's able to become a Heather is because she looks like a Heather. Like, when she does, when she's all glammed up and I'm like, first of all, theater is suspense of disbelief.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And ultimately, with a show like Heather's, I'm like, just. Talent wins. At the end of the day, I don't care if you're £2. If you're £100, I don't fucking care. It's. But it's. It's a mentality that is important for the movie because of the time frame the movie came out. We are now in a place, in my opinion, with theater, where it should be about the talent.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think that you can also make a case for Veronica becoming part of the Heathers. Not just because she looks like a Heather.

[Chelsea Williams]

She's the brain.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

She's the intellect.

[Matt Koplik]

And they make it very clear in the musical that the reason she ends up joining is because she can forge things for the Heathers.

[Chelsea Williams]

She offers them something that they can't do for themselves. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

She. She asks for a coup, which I'm not sure if that's the right. I. I was like, I. Request a coup. What? No. What coup? No. What'd she say? Oh, speaking of the beat.

[Chelsea Williams]

I crave a boon.

[Matt Koplik]

Boon. There we go. I crave a boon.

[Chelsea Williams]

But it's not the name. That's, like, the name that she.

[Matt Koplik]

A boon. I think she means, like, I want a deal.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, okay.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Just know if you let me sit with you at lunch once, like, or a couple times, I know people will leave me alone. And in exchange, I can forge doctor's notes. I can. I can forge.

[Chelsea Williams]

Boon is a word.

[Matt Koplik]

I think so.

[Chelsea Williams]

I thought she was pointing to the forgery that she made and the. The. The name that she wrote down, which was a pun, maybe. I made all this up.

[Matt Koplik]

I thought you might have.

[Chelsea Williams]

Boon.

[Matt Koplik]

I crave. I crave a boon.

[Chelsea Williams]

What's a boon?

[Matt Koplik]

What boon?

[Chelsea Williams]

A thing that is helpful or beneficial, a favor or request. You're right. I'm wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, first of all, I just. That was context clues. I didn't actually know that for sure. I just. I heard the sentence. I was like. I'm guessing that's what that means.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Smart. We learn words every day.

[Chelsea Williams]

Smart.

[Matt Koplik]

Sometimes I say a smart thing. But with. With that forgery, how do we even get here? We're talking about.

[Chelsea Williams]

I don't know.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh. How. Why Veronica will be part of the Heathers. There's a difference between why Veronica is Part of the Heathers in the musical, as opposed to why she's part of the Heathers in the movie. Which is why when it comes to casting, I don't care who was who in the movie. The musical is its own beast. And all my issues with the musical are musical related. Not casting, not Carrie, not Barrett, not nothing. Let's take one more break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean?

[Chelsea Williams]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a coolidge dollar. You're.

[Matt Koplik]

So for. So when you think about the movie, we talked about this sort of already. It's discussing things that at that time, no high school movie ever did. And even now, only, like, the random indie movie covers. It Mean Girls does something similar, but in a much more mainstream way. They never get to that dark element that Heather's gets to. But I also think part of that is the passage of time, because with Heather's, the idea of a school bombing or school shooting was so ridiculous. It didn't. None of that ever happened.

[Chelsea Williams]

Damn.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. And then Columbine happened and everything changed.

[Chelsea Williams]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

And continues to change.

[Chelsea Williams]

I mean, now it's just very.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. Well, and actually, so you asked, like, if JD Were creation today, you know, that there was a Heather's remake TV show.

[Chelsea Williams]

I do vaguely recall. I did not watch it.

[Matt Koplik]

I watched the pilot. And I don't know if they ever released the rest of it. They might. I think they, like, dumped it all. One of the things was they kept on pushing back its premiere because they're.

[Chelsea Williams]

There's always a.

[Matt Koplik]

There's always a school shooting. Exactly. And rather than kind of put it back in the can, like, that should have been the moment that everyone involved went, oh, I don't think you can make Heather's today. Because of the world now.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes, I agree. I was gonna say this earlier. It's. I think it's important that Heather's is, like, a period piece.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

And that it is set in the 80s. And another. Another facet of that is how they deal with eating disorders. And I'm like, if Gen Z's. If the Heathers existed in Gen Z culture nowadays, any of the Heathers would probably say, like, stop puking, girl. Like, we can get help. Here's a hotline you can call.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Whereas in the 80s, it was like, good for you. If you can, like, keep up with an eating disorder. Like, yeah, game on, girl.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, also, first of all, there's. There's. There's Internet culture Now that exists, that is doesn't exist with Heather's in 89 YouTube tutorials, Instagram, Twitter, all the things or X. No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna deadname Twitter. It's the one thing I'm willing to deadname.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Samesies.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But also because. Because there's the Internet, you're. The world is so much larger.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Than it feels when you're in high school. So like, even though Heather Chandler talks about like, I'm gonna basically cancel you Veronica at school. Oh, sorry. That's the other thing I wanted to say in the musical. It makes no sense to me that Heather Chandler's like on Monday, your history because, you know, transfer anywhere. I'm like, everyone at school is at this party. They all, they all saw it happen. She's. She's canceled. Right. Whereas in the movie, because it's at the college party, nobody knows about it yet and so she's going to tell everyone. And like you could say, oh, what's the big deal? She threw up at a party. It's like, yeah, it's high school. Any small thing you do, especially as you said, if you're a woman and you get to a high place, any little bump is enough to tear you down.

[Chelsea Williams]

Highest form of entertainment.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. But in the remake they include the Internet. So there's that kind of bullying. But also in a weird way it feels like if you watch the remake, it's like, I don't know how to describe it. It's almost like a little maga y in a sense that the Heathers. Heather Duke is a girl of color. Heather McNamara is a sort of non binary queer boy individual.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh yes.

[Matt Koplik]

He's. I don't think they're non binary. I think they are a gay boy that they just sort of give non binary traits to like a feminine. Yeah. Like very Chris Colfer in Glee where it's like you're. You identify as male but like you're going to do a lot of feminine traits.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For the sake of the camp. And then Heather Chandler is a body positive like Internet troll diva. So like the opening sequence and Veronica is a skinny white, beautiful girl who's part of the group. And in the opening sequence, Heather Chandler makes one of the school jocks take off his jersey because it has a Native American symbol on it because of like that's her school emblem. And she. And because she's an influencer, videotapes him and is like, if you don't do this, I'm gonna put it on my Instagram and cancel you. And what the writers of the remake were trying to do is show how, like, how school bullying has evolved and, like, except now you've made it like, the quote unquote, like, progressive left with this very diverse group of Heathers, and then, like, the heteronormative white people taking them down. Like, so that's very maga E. Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Which is like, why does it have to have any association with. With Heathers at all? Like, it can be its own new thing.

[Matt Koplik]

It should. But I think it's the brand recognition. They want the IP to get people to sign off on it. And the thing about Heather's, the original is that it is a rejection of the norm, of the status quo, of, like, we've been told that the structure we're in is for our own good. It gives us balance, it gives us purpose, it gives us routine. But so many people are hurt by it. And, you know, it's not a fair system. And people have. Are abusing their power. Why can't we burn it down to the ground and start anew? And it doesn't give you any answers in that regard other than just like, you can't overhaul a whole system. You can only start piecemeal. But that instead, I think people then, like, try to make. When they try to, like, repurpose others, they go into, like, the catchy dialogue and the. And the very odd imagery and the sort of elevatedness of it all without going to the root of it, which is that the movie originally was written from a place of pain and anger from the writer seeing these, you know, American dream teen movies and be like, that's not my reality.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So I don't know. That's. I feel like the legacy of Heather's keeps getting tarnished because then people talk about, like, oh, it's about acceptance. I'm like, it's not about acceptance.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're trying to make it too good. Yeah, Honestly, I thought so. One of my favorite songs from the show meant to be yours, which I thought Ryan McCarten. Absolutely, absolutely crushed to me is such. Is it does such a good job because musically I think it manages to capture this very John Hughesian sound. Like, it just. It sort of brings me to the same place as a John's John Hughes movie where. Or like the era where it's like, I don't know, there's this pulse to it that feels very like, ah, we're taking off like we're teenagers. We have all this, like, wild energy. And it's about Something extremely morbid. He's, like, talking about his obsession with Veronica, how he's literally about to blow up the school and kill everyone inside. And I don't think every song in the score manages to do that, but that song, it does. I don't know. It's, like, stylistically so perfect.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, it's. It's very dramatically compelling.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's like JD is a character, and they do adhere to his origins in the musical from the movie, which is, you know, it's just him and his dad. His mother is. Is no longer with us. She. In. In a very odd way, very. Like a very specific way, which is that JD's father owns a construction company, a very successful construction company. But what he. What his father mostly does is he, you know, tears stuff down. So he has a little. He has access to a lot of explosives. And one of the towns that they lived in, his mother chose to go into one of the buildings that his father was blowing up and stay there when it happened. And like, he talks about in the movies, like, the last time I saw my mom, she was waving from a third story window.

[Chelsea Williams]

It's crazy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. His mom was. Had issues that needed to be addressed and weren't addressed. And rather than talk about it, the father's like, it does. We don't talk about that ever. And they play a game where they call each other father and son to each other. Like JD calls.

[Chelsea Williams]

The roles are reversed.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. I also love the second time that he. The dad, shows up in the movie and Winona Ryder says, great, the beaver's home.

[Chelsea Williams]

What does that even mean?

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, just, like, I think it's in my. My interpretation was always that it was either her way of calling him a pussy or. Or, like, leave it to Beaver, because when he. When they call him son, like, oh.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, yeah, Beaver's home.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, there are a lot of lines in the movie that are iconic that I still don't totally know what they mean.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know why Heather Chandler says corn nuts when she's about to croak, other than, like.

[Chelsea Williams]

I think it's just an exclamation. It's like nuts.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, Nuts. Rats. Yeah. But this time it's Cornuts.

[Chelsea Williams]

Because they sort of created their own brand with all this. They, like me gently with a chainsaw.

[Matt Koplik]

They.

[Chelsea Williams]

They were making their own lingo that was specific to the time and to Heather's.

[Matt Koplik]

What's your damage? Is.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Is now aligned because of that movie.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

What's your damage? Brett says you're being real coos.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Like, they. They were influencers before there were influencers.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Swatch dogs and Diet cokeheads. Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast?

[Chelsea Williams]

Ah, the best.

[Matt Koplik]

So good.

[Chelsea Williams]

That's in the musical.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And also, why are you pulling on my dick?

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which. But. But also, I mean, so something you were saying as well, and I want to tie this back to JD how, like, we're all monsters, we're all selfish, we're all whatever. And I talked about this, I think, with the prom as well, and maybe even downstate. But, yeah, we're all ultimately selfish people. And we're just constantly trying to go against those impulses to show some kind of kindness. And the people who tend to, like, be the most content are the people who are pretty awful because they are just like, I don't desire that struggle with myself.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. They're not fighting it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And you know, who's to say how happy they actually are, but they. The lines on their face are not as deep as the lines of others. I will. I will say that. But. And they've choose to make their conscious less clear about that. But, you know, when Heather Duke, who is the one who has the eating disorder at the beginning of the movie, then rises through the ranks once Heather Chandler passes, you know, in another kind of movie, Heather Duke's arc would be a lot more victorious. You know, she was suffering through this toxic friendship she had with Heather Chandler. And when that was gone, you see, for the first half of the movie, anyway, she blossoms. She. She's able to eat again.

[Chelsea Williams]

Shannen Doherty, right?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the line.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like, such good casting.

[Matt Koplik]

Wow. Watch it, Heather. You might have actually be digesting food there. Yeah. Where's your urge to purge? Fuck it. It's so good. And like, she's happier. She's. She's conversing. She's no longer afraid to speak out anymore. And ultimately she takes that confidence and it become. And it gets corrupted. The musical starts that a lot sooner and makes it a whole. Makes like, proves that actually she's as manipulative as Heather Chandler. She just was waiting in wait. Waiting in wait. That's not a thing lying in wait. But in the wings. In the wings, yes. She says to Veronica in the movie, why are you pulling on my dick? Do you think that if Betty Finn's fairy godmother made her cool, she would be Betty Finn, like, and be nice and kind? She wouldn't. And I think that mentality is something that JD has always felt like Veronica is trying to believe that people can be good, whereas JD's like, no, anyone given an opportunity to have power, it's going to corrupt them.

[Chelsea Williams]

No matter who will take advantage of other people will. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And he says the only place that. That Heather's and Martha Dunstox can get along is in heaven. He's like, so. And also saying, you know, by killing everyone in the school, we are sending a message to society. This is what you're turning us into. Like, we're putting ourselves out of our misery.

[Chelsea Williams]

School is society.

[Matt Koplik]

The school of society. Kind of poetic. Right. And Veronica chooses to fight that, which I think you can decide for yourself if that's naive, if that's a losing battle, or if that's hopeful. The musical aims for. Hopeful.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which I think is fair. Again, it's. And it's. Theater is a commercial art form. So you want people to come back and. And see it. You don't want people. Audiences going out going, God damn it, we're all just awful. I'm gonna go home and eat some chocolate and never see a show again.

[Chelsea Williams]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

I think what I dislike in the ending of the show, I do like the reprise of 17, which also I think is a good song.

[Chelsea Williams]

I do, too.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a very nice number, and I think it's done very well in the reprise. What I don't like is when the ghosts of Heather Chandler and Curtain Ram show up to, like, oversee it all. To, like, look at our friends, our schoolmates all getting along. I'm like, the real trio didn't want that.

[Chelsea Williams]

No.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're not in heaven, like, looking down. This is, like Veronica's imagination of them talking to them from beyond. So I always thought that was a little pat. The only thing that would make it worse. I don't know if they do this in other productions, is if JD showed up in the finale in heaven with.

[Chelsea Williams]

As an angel.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, we did it, guys. I'm like, no. You all were actively destroying this ecosystem.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Veronica's doing it. She's the hero's journey.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. How do you feel about the Veronica of the musical?

[Chelsea Williams]

I think that she has a. You know, it's. I really respect the Veronica of the film because I love. I love a sort of a twisted, dark character. But I do think she has. She goes through so much in the musical that is. Is compelling to a musical audience where she has to locate her moral compass and overcome all of the nasty influences and decide to be a bigger person. And, you know, she goes Through. I'm so over the Cinderella transformations. But, like, you know, she goes through that and decides it's not worth it. And she tells the truth to Martha Dunstock. She humbles herself and saves everyone in the school effectively. So I. I feel like it's. It makes sense because it's. We really do see her go on a wild journey and come out the other side. How do I feel? I don't know. How do you. What do you.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I was asking you because as woman, I wanted. No, not as a woman. As woman. You are woman.

[Chelsea Williams]

Hear me roar.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And I like hearing woman speak of woman, because I love woman. But, you know, I only can go through how I.

[Chelsea Williams]

You are not woman.

[Matt Koplik]

I am not. I can only go through how I experience them.

[Chelsea Williams]

Sure.

[Matt Koplik]

But, I mean, I think Veronica, because the movie character is so rich and meaty, not necessarily, like, exciting. I would say her arc is not as tortured as the Veronica of the musical.

[Chelsea Williams]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

She has a conscience in the movie, and she's like, the first half of the movie is Veronica definitely grappling with, like, where is my. Where. Where are my morals actually gonna stand? Where. Where do I draw the line? I'm not sure yet. And the musical, she's a lot kinder. So you see her get traumatized easier. You see. You see it affecting her a little deeper than it happened from the get go.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like in Beautiful. She's like, defending Martha to the jocks. She's standing up to them.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. And she has more agency, I would argue. And I think that is an interesting change. I think I would like it more again if I thought that the musical went harder with its edges. I remember writing in my review for the cast album, because sometimes I'm asked to write reviews for cast albums, but I said for hardcore Heathers fans, they're gonna be disappointed that the chewing tobacco has been replaced by bubblegum, which is how I kind of describe that score. There are times when it does synchronize really well. And other times from, like. And on paper. I can't deny where songs happen for the most part. Except for Blue Slash. You're welcome. Which we've already discussed. They also added that song that we were listening to before we recorded the I say no.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

In Act 2. Yeah. Don't need it, don't need it. And it's so long.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

So, Chelsea, for. For my uncultured folks who don't know your work, let me set the scene for them for you. As I've said, Chelsea Williams has a very beautiful, very high Voice, or rather say your voice can go high. There were.

[Chelsea Williams]

I will never gone high in the past.

[Matt Koplik]

I will never forget playing you Rainbow High for the first time in college. You famously had never heard of EDA before. And I'm like, oh, girl, I was a late bloomer. You were. But I, I reveled in that. I was. I. I like to think I was never the, the person. If you said like, oh, I don't know that I was like, you've never heard of it more as I was like excited.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like you just press play.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I was like, yeah. I was like, oh, yay. I get to show you. It was always that it was. It was very Abby on Broad City of. You're so lucky. Like, you get to experience for the first time.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I remember playing you Rainbow High and we get to the modulation and Patti hits the big note and you go, what note is that? I go, that's an E. And you go, oh, okay.

[Chelsea Williams]

And I was like, it was a different time.

[Matt Koplik]

It was a different time.

[Chelsea Williams]

But like, you know, you less trauma to the chords.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I don't know. You sang Freedom like a boss. But this is to say, as Chelsea's going to discuss the plights of the woman of Monterey Musical Theater. Just know like, this is a girl like Veronica Sawyer herself who absolutely can fit into this hierarchy, but she's also calling out the hierarchy itself, which is real bravery and great. You are basically a man who says that he loves women, which is all.

[Chelsea Williams]

I can really hope to be. The most powerful position a man.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, of the two people in this room, you definitely have the most power.

[Chelsea Williams]

Why are you pulling on my dick?

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's so good.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think that Wicked is ultimate. Is the. Started the wave of this like vocal athleticism on Broadway that is, dare I say, has ruined musical theater or has at least turned it into. Has turned it away from storytelling and more into like a concert style of. We're singing as loud and as high as we possibly can. In a way that it's becoming more and more normal to have a standby go on once or twice a week. Because, dear God, who can actually sustain eight shows of singing? I mean, actually, that doesn't even happen in Wicked, right? Standbys go on, but it's not a scheduled performance.

[Matt Koplik]

No, it's never scheduled, but they, they go on a lot.

[Chelsea Williams]

It's crazy to me. Yeah, going on mid show is like very normal. Going on after the wizard and I, it's like very normal for Alphabet and Wicked.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. I remember seeing Heather's for the first time, and, like, it was so exciting to me to hear someone sing like that, but it was so exciting because I was like, this is so challenging. It's so loud. It's so high, and it's. It's making me almost, like, cringe in my seat where I'm worried for this person throughout the show. I was worried for Barrett, who I had a lot of admiration for at the time, and I. But, yeah, it was. It felt thrilling to me then to hear someone sing so much, so high, where I was like, is she gonna be able to do it? But now, as an older, wiser, more experienced performer, when I see shows like that and I'm worried about them hitting the notes, it's, like, not a comfortable experience. I'm totally taken out of the story. I can't actually enjoy the plot. I can't. I can't transcend the world that I'm living in. I'm just like, oh, my God, are you gonna be able to work after this and that? And. And I'm like, I don't want to go in for shows like that. Like, I don't wanna. You know, I don't want to put myself through that. It's not worth it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not. I. I have conflict with myself with this regard, because I agree. I don't. I. I get very angry now when I watch shows. And I think you have written this so terribly for your leading person, man or woman. And I actually think both Heather's and Legally Blonde are the same, where, like, Elle woods is just as monstrous of a role as Veronica, just in terms of, like, how it's paced. Even if, like, she's not belting all the time, like, she's on. She never leaves the stage. Which shows you how much worse it's gotten since Wicked, because Wicked was very much a turning point. And I remember at the time Wicked came out, a lot of critics like, jesus Christ, this is where we're heading. American Idol style singing.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I look at Wicked now, compared to Heather's or. Or Mean Girls or Legally Blonde, I'm like, oh, the Alphabet is actually paced better than those roles. It's still not. It's still a beast. And people go, it's paced well. But, like, it's still. It's still very difficult. And the proof is, you know, a lot of Alphabets have had to have vocal therapy afterwards or have called out, but, like, you know, yeah, Elphaba doesn't open the show immediately. She's not on stage all the time. She has wizard and I and then she doesn't have, like a big, big sing again until Defying Gravity. But she does have, you know, deed.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like, there's a lot of.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Three really big tent poles. But it's like, it's still a lot. And it's not. Again, it's not that it is well structured so much as we have made it even harder now that we look on Wicked compared to those shows and go, well, that's better. But, like, if we didn't have Heather's or Legally Blonde or any of those shows, we would rightfully look at Wicked and go, that's insane that we're asking someone to do that eight times a week.

[Chelsea Williams]

Heather's is not pace well, it's not sustainable. I mean, that opening number is first of all, like, seven minutes long. And it ends in Veronica belting and riffing up a Storm, which probably was Barrett's improvisational choices that just kind of stuck with the show. And it is impressive, but it's like you have to maintain that bar throughout the rest of the show.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

You know, you've already gone there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I wish that. I wish that there were other major productions of that show recorded for posterity that could give alternate vocals on that kind of stuff, because the same thing is true with Book of Mormon. Andrew Randalls has talked about this a lot. When he played Elder Price in the workshops and then brought it to Broadway, he made them raise all the keys for him. Not just because he could do it, but he was so nervous that he would get replaced at one point that he's like, I want to put these in keys that are so high that they can't replace me. Wow. Which is. I mean, that was him being a shark, being like, I'm going to hold on to this role for as long as it takes.

[Chelsea Williams]

That's a reflection of the industry, ultimately.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But. And they kept it. And then it wasn't until Gavin Creel, I think, did the tour and they lowered a couple of keys. And I mean, Gavin's voice also goes insanely high. But, like, it wasn't fitting as.

[Chelsea Williams]

Not necessary.

[Matt Koplik]

It's not necessary. And, like, I believe it's just as powerful a step down as it is in the original right key. Like, it doesn't need to be that high. And it shouldn't be about us applauding the agility of the singer. It should be us applauding the craft of the artist.

[Chelsea Williams]

I agree. I mean, you think about. You can speak to this more than I can. But, like, performers like Ethel Merman who are having songs written for them and are. When I think of her, I think of an extremely powerful storyteller. Like, gusto, volume. Like, she's got it all. Was she a soprano? No. Was she belting really high? No, but, like, it was all. You were struck by her velocity. I mean, it's just incredible.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah. I mean, and even some major power songs from the 60s, 70s, and 80s that we think of as, like, these big, high flute numbers. Like, okay, Open this Way, Don't Random My Parade from Funny Girl. When you take away the flourishes that Barbara added as written, it is a big number. It doesn't go beyond a C. Like, the C is the money note. Julie Steiner was like, we're not running past that. We don't need to. But then, of course, Barbara's a freak of nature. And she was like, I'll do an E. Why not? Who cares? So what? And then everybody else is like, well, now I gotta destroy myself. But, like, where you find where the voice has the most power, that's where you cater to. And then, you know, as you get more comfortable and you start having more fun with it, whatever. But, like, that danger of Barrett's voice is partly what made the score so thrilling to me the first time I heard it, which is why I sometimes question how much do I actually like the score? And how much of it was that thrill right of Is she going to make it?

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, like, that's not a discredit to Barrett the artist. She's in control of her instrument. But that score destroys voices. It destroyed hers for a little bit, and she's. She's been open about it.

[Chelsea Williams]

As far as contemporary musical theater goes, it's. It's a real travesty to me that. It seems like a lot of writers nowadays don't have the keen sense that writers of, like, Golden Age or like Sondheim, for example, had of what it means to be a vocalist and how to write for singers. And Heather's definitely fell into this trap a little bit, where some of the songs are super catchy. They are bops, like, we love it. But they are not all written with a single singer's success in mind in a way that if you listen to any Sondheim show, he's very much thinking about the vowels, the placement. And I think a lot of, like, jukebox musicals, you know, of course, fall into this trap because they were written as pop songs, and it's not. We're not considering singing These songs eight times a week and how you can actually carry that out. And I. I just hope that for the future of musical theater, more writers will think about the realities of singing these songs eight times a week.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't. I don't know. I just. We're not writing songs that are actable. We're writing songs that are meant to show ourselves off. And that's fine for it's. Again, it's the Lipa Wild Party in a cabaret setting on a cast album. I'm here for it.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But like I've said this about burrs in Wild Party. Let Me Drown is a bop.

[Chelsea Williams]

A bop.

[Matt Koplik]

And that number is his mental breakdown before he decides he's going to try and kill Queenie and Black.

[Chelsea Williams]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

That's. Compare that actually to Meant To Be Yours, which is also, in its weird way, a bop, but it's a disorienting bop. It changes meter, it changes tempo, it changes melody lines all the time to show off his sort of erratic mental state. And it has a bit of danger to it.

[Chelsea Williams]

I love you, I hate you. I love you, I hate you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

So good.

[Matt Koplik]

I was meant to be yours. Like, I love it. Yeah. It's actually very smart and it does build to that height vocally. So I think that's actually. That is a case of Heather's. And of course, it's for the band. That's a case of Heather's, where I do think they think of the actor.

[Chelsea Williams]

Open the. Open the door, please, Veronica.

[Matt Koplik]

Open the door. But so with something like Let Me Drown, where it is just about the actor showing off vocally and getting tapping into something rageful. But as an audience, you're not getting uncomfortable from the story. You're just like, fuck, yeah, Work. And I think too many writers, creative teams in general, and producers even, are so thrilled with the immediate cheers of an audience for that bop, for that showstopper, they don't think, yeah, it's very immediate and cheap.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And to make. To prove my point even further, for every show in the last three years that has gotten a huge ovation or standing ovation that then closed. Are we talking about them today?

[Chelsea Williams]

I can't say that I talk about Paradise Square very often.

[Matt Koplik]

I talk about it too much for a show. I absolutely hate it.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, you do.

[Matt Koplik]

But it's because it's my go to. It's my go to.

[Chelsea Williams]

It's. It's like a. Yeah, it anchors your spectrum of like.

[Matt Koplik]

It has started to replace Finding Neverland as my go to. Punching Bag. And to be fair to Paradise Square, I do think the writers had good intentions, whereas Finding Neverland was just a paycheck for everybody.

[Chelsea Williams]

I do like that one song.

[Matt Koplik]

And Finding Neverland or Paradise.

[Chelsea Williams]

All that matters now.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, is that the song she sings before she dies of cancer?

[Chelsea Williams]

I don't know. I didn't like the show.

[Matt Koplik]

I saw the show, but the glitter tornado was nice.

[Chelsea Williams]

But also, it's an indulgent.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I also give Paradise Square the credit of. There are no children in that show, and I don't like children. Especially on stage. I just don't like them.

[Chelsea Williams]

I just don't like them.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is so weird, because I love Matilda, okay. And I love the TV movie of Annie, but Matilda's dark. She is dark and she's smart and she's fun and she's cool. But, yeah, she's not like, I'm adorable. She's like, I really.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're like, I like the kids who are magical geniuses.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Not the regular ones.

[Matt Koplik]

Matilda saw Passion. She saw Foska and Passion, and she saw that song. I read, and she's like, yeah, I do read.

[Chelsea Williams]

I read and I move with my mind.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because that is feminism. Is that not feminism?

[Chelsea Williams]

I must not be a real feminist, because I'm trying to move your Paddington the Bear right now.

[Matt Koplik]

You heard it here, guys. Chelsea Williams hates women.

[Chelsea Williams]

I hate women. It's because I hate myself.

[Matt Koplik]

That movie, women talking. Chelsea saw that. She went, why? Why are they talking? They shouldn't be talking.

[Chelsea Williams]

Somebody shut them up.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I love that movie the Artist. Because nobody talks, especially the women. Because it's a silent movie. Get it? No, no, but with Heather's. Because we were talking about. I know. I'm. Guys, I have a cold, so I've been just, like, blowing my nose constantly. And I've a wad of toilet paper on the table. No apologies. Never apologize, everyone, please pray for me. My brain is dying with Heather's. With meant to be yours and all that. I'm glad we got back to that, because you had talked about your love for it, and we didn't really.

[Chelsea Williams]

I'm gonna listen to it as soon as I leave this place.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a good number.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Again, my issue with Heather's as a musical is that they do a lot to make it work as a musical, but I don't think they go dark enough to justify the themes and the content of the plot, which is why people find it problematic, because when you make it lighter, it's what makes people go. Or not even lighter. When you go towards empathy rather than just flat out criticism, it leaves an open discussion for audiences. And there are some people who don't like that. For example, my favorite musical leads with empathy for all the characters, even when they're doing terrible things, which has led it to have this constant argument about where does the musical stand?

[Chelsea Williams]

What's your favorite musical?

[Matt Koplik]

Finding Neverland.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, It's. And the argument is, where do we stand on glitter? Is it beautiful or does it pollute the planet? And I'm like, it's both. It's a wonderful metaphor for dying of cancer.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. It's the one thing I didn't like about My Sister's Keeper. There was no glitter in it.

[Chelsea Williams]

I can't say that I saw that one.

[Matt Koplik]

Neither did I. I saw the trailer, like.

[Chelsea Williams]

But I know it's about.

[Matt Koplik]

It's about cancer. Yeah. Walks. Remember? I know there's cancer in that.

[Chelsea Williams]

Definitely saw that many times. Nicholas Sparks. Sparks.

[Matt Koplik]

Nicholas Shartz. Nicholas Sparks doesn't like gay people. Everybody remember that.

[Chelsea Williams]

Really? Yeah. I can't say I'm surprised.

[Matt Koplik]

No, he doesn't. Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

He loves a weak woman.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure do. And in fact, Ali in the Notebook is so strong. And he punishes her by getting dementia.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

He's like, oh, you thought that you could be an independent woman. Surprise. You're gonna get dementia.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Only for so long.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

You will pay a price.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Oh, Mandy Moore, become the weakest of the weak. Yes. Mandy Moore. You think that you can love Jesus and. And have a man. No. You're gonna get leukemia.

[Chelsea Williams]

So I lay my head back down the weakest upper register known to man. I'll say it. Mandy Moore, I wanna be with you. Oh, wow.

[Matt Koplik]

I love it when she's singing in the Princess Diaries on that beach and you can barely hear.

[Chelsea Williams]

You can barely hear.

[Matt Koplik]

Me.

[Chelsea Williams]

God, it's. Yeah. Wow. How far we've come.

[Matt Koplik]

How far we've come. You know what? Mandy Moore could never be able to sing the score of Heathers.

[Chelsea Williams]

Anything on Broadway. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And anything from Heathers.

[Chelsea Williams]

Have you've heard her sing Suddenly Seymour?

[Matt Koplik]

I was there when she did it.

[Chelsea Williams]

What?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I'm the one who suggested in the audience.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, my goodness. I'll never forget that big millennial millennial bun she had.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh. So, no, actually, we didn't really talk about much. Is Heather McNamara. And I want. I want to talk about her and Martha Dunstock as well of the musicals. Two characters who genuinely are suffering and do not get the empathy that they should get that. That is reserved for the people who did not actually unalive themselves, but because of their social status and because of how it happened or given this kind of grace. Heather McNamara in a moment of vulnerability in Act 2 after Shine a Light. And it's supposed to be this healing moment. And then Heather McNamara kind of breaks.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. She's like, okay, I'll bite. Yeah, I want you on a life myself.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, she doesn't think she starts off that way. She. What she starts off is just like, I don't like my life. I don't like everything that's happening to me. The movie makes her a little whinier.

[Chelsea Williams]

I thought she revealed that she has suicidal thoughts. Maybe I'm reading into it too hard.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe she does. I don't know. There's. For everything that I criticize about the show, there's a lot of stuff I've forgotten. And I literally have been, like, putting in my brain all week. But yeah, with Lifeboat, it's a song where she basically says that no life. Because I think Murphy and o' Keefe said that they read something and how like, high school is basically like surviving on the tiny's Lifeboat. And, you know, it's always just. It's kill or be killed. And it. That it's something that actually gets to her, whereas it doesn't get to Heather Chandler.

[Chelsea Williams]

It.

[Matt Koplik]

It doesn't get to Heather Duke anymore. But it does affect Heather McNamara. And rather than everyone lending a hand of I see you, I feel you, I hear you, Joanna. They. Instead, she gets ripped apart. And it's the same thing in the movie, you know, rather, when hearing that their friend is suffering, Heather Duke's like, great, we're gonna. We're gonna crucify her for this. And Veronica does nothing. And Heather is the first one in the story to truly make the choice to unalive herself. And ultimately Veronica steps in and helps her. But it shows you, like, just because Veronica Chandler, Heather Chandler, and Raymond Kurt didn't actually unalive themselves doesn't mean that this isn't a thought that teenagers have. This isn't a conclusion that some people at this age go to because they talked about this. I think in Downstate, I may be. Didn't talk about it with dear Evan Hansen when I was writing my movie about parents dealing with the. The grief and the guilt of a child that it was. It's a good screenplay.

[Chelsea Williams]

It's a good screenplay.

[Matt Koplik]

Thank you, baby. Guys, Chelsea has been good to do readings for anything I've ever written. The screenplay, the play.

[Chelsea Williams]

Reading roles. Much older than I am now, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. No.

[Chelsea Williams]

Well, you read roles I can't wait to grow into.

[Matt Koplik]

It's true. You did read for Aaron at the first.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

That was too much. That's. I can't have you ever do that role again. No, it was too good.

[Chelsea Williams]

Talk to me when you have contracts.

[Matt Koplik]

I know. I'll say. I'm gonna say this about Chelsea Williams, and then we're gonna move on. The first time I. We did the reading of my play in January, Chelsea read the role of Aaron in a scene that was very impactful. And Chelsea. We were like. We were at break because her role doesn't show up till Act 2. And we get to the scene, and the moment Chelsea opens her mouth, she's nailing it so hard that I'm having.

[Chelsea Williams]

You went under the table?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I had ptsd. I sat on the table the entire time.

[Chelsea Williams]

You literally got under the table.

[Matt Koplik]

I did. I did. It was. You were that good?

[Chelsea Williams]

Well, you also. You wrote it extremely close to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, that. That first time was the closest it was to the point.

[Chelsea Williams]

Do they know what you're talking about?

[Matt Koplik]

They know that something happened, and they know that I wrote a play.

[Chelsea Williams]

It was very personal. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That's all they know. We haven't talked about anything.

[Chelsea Williams]

Very brave. He's very brave.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm a brave man. I'm a big, brave boy. But that. The idea of when someone commits suicide, people often talk about it as, like, a choice that they make. And in a way, it is. But when I was writing that screenplay, I was talking to someone who had dealt with that before, and I. While I've had. While I do suffer from depression myself, I'm very fortunate that I haven't gone to that darkest spot. But what they said was, you know, it's not a choice, it's a conclusion. Like, it's. It's something that makes sense to them, and it's something that isn't really discussed in Dear Evan Hansen with, you know, Connor Murphy, who commits suicide.

[Chelsea Williams]

And it might not feel like a choice in the moment that something like that happens.

[Matt Koplik]

And a lot of people, when they get to that moment, they actually. Their spirits actually tend to rise because they see that the end is near, and it feels like they've. They have a. An answer now that this is where it has always been meant to lead to. Like, the pain will be over soon. Which is why in Dear Evan Hansen, when they're like. If you read Connor's letters, which are all fake, by the way. Evan wrote all of them with Jared like he was getting better. Why would he, why would he unalive himself? And it's like, well, actually, I would love to. Some. Someone came in and said like, actually, statistically speaking, many people, when they get to that point of their lives, they do have an uptick in their emotions because they feel like the pain will go away very soon. And people should probably put a trigger.

[Chelsea Williams]

Warning on this episode.

[Matt Koplik]

I've been putting a trigger warning on everything. But that is sort of the thing with Heather's that it doesn't go to that spot. But it, it does sort of continually talk about how despite all the conversations people are having and the empathy that they claim to lean towards when the actual shit hits the fan and people who really are suffering are getting there to that spot of vulnerability and needing of help, no one's doing it. Instead it's like, oh, a moment of weakness. Fantastic. I can, I can point and laugh when, when Martha Dunstock does it. Heather Duke says because, because first of all, McNamara does not succeed. Veronica steps in. Martha Dunstock sings Kindergarten Boyfriend, which I think has no rhymes in it. That is what they said was like, she got to, she's at a point mentally where she doesn't. She can't think in rhymes. She can only think in free flowing thoughts, which I'm not mad about. But she makes the choice to, to go in front of traffic and oh.

[Chelsea Williams]

I thought she jumped off a bridge.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, maybe she jumps off the bridge. She goes into traffic in the movie. That much I remember. She, she, she takes a note, I.

[Chelsea Williams]

Think in the musical, she, she jumps off a bridge and is not successful.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, she's not successful in either Breaks and Bones. She does. She's not successful in either medium. And Heather Duke's one who says, you know, she did this and, and what Heather Duke says is she's just trying to follow the cool kids and she's failing miserably because that's how it goes. And it's such a callous, evil thing to say. And in the movie it's not nearly as callous. It doesn't feel as callous because the movie has framed it at that point as like everyone has been viewing suicide now as a trend, as a cool thing to do. And so, but, and they don't frame Martha's plight as something to mock at. It's. It is very much the bleeding heart of the movie. But it makes sense that that's where Heather Duke's head's going up because she's in this bubble of toxicity where that's where people are thinking of the musical. Because we have that moment of introspection with Martha, who has been nothing but kind the entire time. It just keeps getting stomped on.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And then even in, in her most vulnerable moment continues to get stomped on. It really cuts even deeper and meaner. Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

There's just, no, there's nowhere to turn to actually source empathy from, from the characters. Like even, even when you do the most bleak act of, of despair.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

People are still like, you're just trying to be like everybody else.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Or, you know, when you, I mean, think about, like anytime somebody posts something on social media of like, I've been going through a thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes it's so easy to look at it one of two ways. Eye roll, eye roll. You're looking for attention or it's like you are hurting and you're looking for some, someone to recognize for help.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Recognize your pain. And that's the, that's the double edged sword of social media. And also just like how we all both hate it, love it, rely on it, want to get rid of it. And ultimately the answer that Heather's the musical in the movie has is just like it just comes down to just telling one single person, I see you. I'm here for you. Let's be friends.

[Chelsea Williams]

Let's watch a movie.

[Matt Koplik]

I want to watch a movie with you always. Pop some popcorn. Pop some Jiffy Pop. Yep. As Martha Dunst says, are there any happy endings? Ooh, actually wait one more line and then we can start wrapping things up.

[Chelsea Williams]

Let's do it.

[Matt Koplik]

So the ending of the show, actually, first of all, again, structurally speaking, I think the show does a really good job of making the final act feel like a runaway train. They're really good at condensing all the drama to make it pulse, whereas in the movie it's like a very tense long burn. And the musical also ends with no new songs after Meant to Be Yours. It's just reprises.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Dead girl walking reprised. 17 Our love is God. And when JD ultimately fails in his endeavor, luckily so. And he comes back out with the bomb attached to his chest. First of all, there's a good joke there when he says, please stand back now, and she takes a step a little further. That's the kind of like dark humor. I think the musical nails very well for every time there's a moment where I'm like, guys, you didn't get it. There's a time where I'm like, you got it.

[Chelsea Williams]

We didn't mention that. Kevin. What's his name?

[Matt Koplik]

Kevin Murphy.

[Chelsea Williams]

He also wrote for Desperate Housewives.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, did he?

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

No way.

[Chelsea Williams]

He was the writer of Desperate Housewives. Good for him. I mean, which had its darkness as well. Like similar, you know, themes, except set in middle aged women.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. The first season of Desperate Housewives, I maintain, is one of the best seasons.

[Chelsea Williams]

Very good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. That pilot is incredible.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. Witty banter, dark themes.

[Matt Koplik]

Very dark themes. It's a soap opera on primetime, but when it goes. Because it starts with the intro of 17. Yeah, we're damaged. And he has that bit. And then before he gets to the actual chorus of 17, he goes right into the I worship you. And then Our Love is God, which is a number that ends act one with Veronica and J.D. based off of the line from the movie. And the song Our Love is God just ends with him and Veronica repeating the line over and over to each other. So in the reprise, as he has the bomb straps to his chest, he just sings it over and over again to Veronica. Our love is God. And then on the last line, Veronica says, say hi to God. Blackout. Boom. And I think that's such a great use of that moment. I remember seeing it in the theater, like, and I had my arms kind of crossed a little bit. I was like, I'm not super happy with how they musicalized this. And then she said that line. I'm like, that was good.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, I'll give you that one.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. When there's a moment of really good writing. Listen, part of me knows it's good writing if I get jealous. I didn't think of it. But the best.

[Chelsea Williams]

See, we love people admitting that they're, you know, oh, I can talk about.

[Matt Koplik]

All of my friends.

[Chelsea Williams]

I know.

[Matt Koplik]

This is why I love you and Chelsea. If I can't think of them, you're right here to tell me.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just keeping your feet on the ground.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. My favorite friends are the ones who I'm like, you know, guys, I think I'm pretty cool. And my friend's going, oh, sweetie, no.

[Chelsea Williams]

Now let's unpack this.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I'm with you. Because I need tallying points so I can get into heaven eventually. I'm doing a good deed by staying around you.

[Chelsea Williams]

So, yeah, you know, you like that Writing is good if you wish that you had come up with it.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. But also, there's a kind of good writing right. Where I just go, ooh, that's, like, what excites me.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

For every part of Heather's room, Like, God damn it. There's a moment like that. Like, say hi to God. Stand back now a little further. I'm like, that's a good moment.

[Chelsea Williams]

Very quippy. Very good. Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it's easy to toss it off because for a while, we only knew of Heather's sort of, in theory, as a musical. Like, it was doing all these readings. It was. They were doing the Joe's Pub concert. So it felt almost like. Are they writing this show? Like. Like the U2 musical theater concerts that we grew up with, the RSO, PASC and Paul's, where it's like, we have an idea for a musical. Here's some songs we came up with as a concept. It's like, but does this actually fit the show? Cough. When Lily came. Cough, Cough. And. Yep. But so triggering. Triggering. But so with Heather's, I think it. It was exciting to watch it and go, oh, like, this song does fit. And then other times be like, the song doesn't fit. You just kept it because it did well at the concert. But I do think they genuinely worked very hard to make it as good a musical as possible. They're musical theater writers. They're not like concert people. But it does have its failings and it does have its pluses.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. One more plus you have for this show.

[Chelsea Williams]

I was reading. When I was reading the. The script you sent me, which, like, do you have the script for everything?

[Matt Koplik]

No, I just. I know a lot of people and I. I've done a lot of.

[Chelsea Williams]

You know what that means.

[Matt Koplik]

I've done a lot of sexual favors. People in the past lot.

[Chelsea Williams]

They made a very conscious effort to keep costs down in terms of, like, the set and the design of the show so that they could hire so many performers. And this. The sound was impressive. Like, when I went to see it, I was like, damn, this ensemble is working over time. And they had a lot of musicians in the orchestra as well.

[Matt Koplik]

They did. It was a big sound.

[Chelsea Williams]

For sure. It was a big sound.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. I. I do like the hero's journey they give for Veronica in the sense of musicals.

[Chelsea Williams]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't know if I like it for that story. I also wish that the musical was a little more sardonic with the adults. I don't think that they're quite sardonic enough like Veronica's parents, for. The thing about Heather's as a movie is it's so easy to forget that these are, technically speaking, children.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

First of all, because they all look Older, but also the way they carry themselves. Like, high school is its own ecosystem. And what Veronica says, which is so eloquent, is when she says to jd, I don't really like my friends. Which is much more. Actually, I didn't. Yeah, I'll say one last thing after this. I say that, and I'm gonna say 10 more things. But she's like, it's people that I work with, and her job is being popular and shit. So you start to think of them as adults with jobs. And then in small moments in the movie, just, like, through small interactions, you're like, oh, no, these are children. Like, when they're playing croquet in Veronica's backyard and, like, Chandler's being this awful monster to Duke. And then Veronica's parents come out and they go, oh, Heather, your mom's here. And McNamara's like, okay, everyone, come on for a ride. And they, like, say bye and thank you to Veronica's parents, like teenagers do. And they're like, thanks for having us over. Bye. Like, yeah, no, they're fucking 16.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

These are children.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. They're getting picked up by their parents.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And Veronica, you know, her parents don't know much about her life. They have the same old banter, pate, who's the dark horse for prom, things like that. But they don't know actually anything about her life. And the one time they ever get, like, real real is when Veronica says, like, we just want to be treated like human beings. And her mom says when kids say that, it's usually because they are being treated like human beings and they don't like it. And when Veronica says, well, I guess I picked the wrong time to be a human being, all her mom can say is, well, you'll live. Want some pate? Because she doesn't know what to do.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah, it's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's. Again, it's a generation of people who became parents because that's what you're supposed to do without actually asking, should I be a parent? Am I capable of raising someone who can contribute to society? Which is also sometimes why we have the monsters we do. Like Heather Chandler.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yep.

[Matt Koplik]

Totally the last thing I'll say about Veronica and Heather. And this is where the nuance of the movie does still overshadow the musical. In the musical, Veronica is only with the Heathers for about three weeks and then hits the fan. So even though she has the guilt of, you know, killing someone, the line, I just killed my best friend and your worst enemy. Same difference. Makes no sense. In the movie, it's been a few years. They've been friends for years, and they have a certain kind of rapport. So it is true. There's also a moment in the movie that I love. Again, it's the nuance. It's the details after Heather has died. And her legacy is, you know, Heather Chandler. And my suicide note is beautiful. And Veronica's kind of looking at everyone being like, God, everyone's so stupid. There's a moment where she goes and sees Heather Chandler's locker. No one has cleared it out since she's passed, and she goes in it because she. Of course she does.

[Chelsea Williams]

She knows the code.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. And there's a strip of photos from, like, a photo booth with her and Heather that shows you. Like, they weren't just.

[Chelsea Williams]

They had history.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, for all the resentment she had and hatred she had, there was a love there, even if it was toxic. Like, they had the good moments, too. So you have that conflict in her. Like, you know, I did get rid of a monster, but she was my friend, like, and she was a person.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

How she expressed it was, you know, her own monstrous way, but she was.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. The musicals is a little more akin to mean girls, like the kids, caddy, Regina George. Timeline of, like, I'm getting in good with these people, so it benefits me. We haven't known each other for that long, and we are best friends as far as on the surface of what our high school community is seeing. Like, we sit together at lunch now.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

But we haven't actually, you know, swapped secrets. We don't really know anything about each other.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, exactly. And it's that there for all the empathy that the musical has and all the cynicism the movie has, I feel like there's weirdly more nuance of humanity in the movie than there is in the show because they do make all the Heathers very comical and cartoonish. They go for a broad approach, I think, to, in their opinion, make all the hard stuff more palatable. And I think it actually, by trying to soften the edges, they actually make it a harder pill to swallow.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. I think there's something really relatable about the movie version of Veronica, who has known these girls for so long and doesn't really want to be friends with them anymore. I grew up in a. In a small town, and, you know, I had experiences where it's like, we live down the street from each other, and we were best friends in kindergarten. I don't really want to be your friend anymore. Like, we don't really Have a lot of. In common anymore. And, like, I don't really like you anymore, but how do I break up with someone in this small community where, like, you're gonna be mad and, like, there's nowhere to go and that.

[Matt Koplik]

And that madness percolates? Is that what I'm looking for? Like, where it spreads out, you know, like, if you're the one who breaks it off, you're the one who makes the decision.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

You become the villain. And then. Because, like, then what are you left with? Who can you turn to?

[Chelsea Williams]

Right.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're trapped in a. In a structure. In, like, a social structure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. We have people we've known for years, and we're all interconnected in this way. And over the years, I've had people, I'm like, I'm not sure I really want to be friends with you anymore. You're not really nice to me.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. But we have, like, some unspoken allegiance because we have a history together.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

And I like how direct they handle that in Heather's the Movie.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Any other pressing issues on your mind with this show? Chelsea, we talked about the music. We talked about Veronica. We talked about Martha and McNamara. We didn't really talk about Duke much, but again, I think she gets the short end of the stick.

[Chelsea Williams]

She does in the musical, for sure.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She's got a much better defined arc in the movie. First, I just want to say everybody, if you. If you love the musical but haven't seen the movie, see the movie. If you don't love the musical and never saw the movie, see the movie. If you don't love the musical and love the movie, see the movie.

[Chelsea Williams]

See the movie. Yeah, just see it. I'm going to watch it again.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm going to watch it again, too.

[Chelsea Williams]

It's so good. But, yeah, the musical, it came at a time for me where I was. Oh, man. It was like, exactly my appetite for musical theater at the time. Even though I knew I had problems and I didn't love every song. It was like when Barrett Wilbert Weed was right at the tip of the wave of contemporary musical theater. And I just wanted to. I wanted to hear Blood when people were singing, so.

[Matt Koplik]

And it. And it brought it.

[Chelsea Williams]

I was prime audience for it at the time.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, that's also art, you know, how you feel about anything you see depends on where you are in your life when you see it, and that can change for the better or worse later on. It's. You know, that's the tricky thing with nostalgia. When you love Something at a young age, and you look back on it and people go, well, actually, it's bad because of xyz. A lot of people don't like to admit that.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And, you know, we don't have to go into the political stuff of that, but to be on the safe side for, like, a movie, let's say. Because I want to keep it safe, since we've talked about only safe things on this episode.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

But, like, you know, an example being anytime I talk to a Gen Xer about Annie, and I'm like, well, I really love the TV Annie. Like, well, I think the original 80s one is better. I'm like, you think that because that's the one you grew up with.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm like, I grew up with it, too. But I think if someone to look at those two movies back to back without having ever seen them before, with no attachment, that's the person you want to talk to. But no one's willing to acknowledge the faults of something from their past that they loved because they have that chemical.

[Chelsea Williams]

It means so much to them, especially.

[Matt Koplik]

When it's a musical. Because musical is a chemical reaction, not a mental reaction, not an intellectual one.

[Chelsea Williams]

You respond, music is manipulative.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Which is what, again, we talked about that with Evan Hansen of, like, moments in the show where you go, am I being manipulated right now because the music. The answer is yes.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Even if they don't mean to.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. You know, I feel that way about so many contemporary musicals, specifically jukebox musicals, where people are misconstruing, like, joy and pleasure for simple, simply song recognition.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like Moulin Rouge. I mean, let's be honest. Like, I saw. I didn't see it on Broadway, but I saw it in Chicago. And I just remember looking around at the audience who was losing their goddamn minds, and I was like, you are mistaking that you like this. You're. What's really happening in your brain is you just keep being like, I know this song.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Chelsea Williams]

And we're never getting more than, like, a verse of any of them. It's like listening to a. Like a mashup. Essentially. It's one big mashup. And you're just being like, I know the song. I know this song. I know the song. Oh, my God.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, it's like, if you get the joke, you're in the club, and everybody wants to be in the club. The club.

[Chelsea Williams]

That's.

[Matt Koplik]

That's Heather's.

[Chelsea Williams]

Like, it's not actually, like, changing anything for you.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Yeah. It's There's a. It's. There's a difference between I like this and I know this.

[Chelsea Williams]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

And I think there are two musicals recently that do this exact same thing. And they. You didn't see New York, New York, did you? You're so welcome. So. But I do know you saw Hell's Kitchen, and we don't have to talk about Hell's Kitchen, but they do a very similar thing with their songs where they save the most iconic New York based song for the finale and they throw everything they have at it.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And I went to a final preview on a Sunday matinee with an audience that was pretty tepid for the entire thing, except for Keisha Lewis's Act 1 finale and Shoshana Beans. Brandon Victor Dixon, don't come near our House Anymore. Act two song, which should be cut. Even though she sings the House down on it. Just because the next scene, he comes in, he's like, I'm back. And she goes, dinner's at 6. I'm like, then we. Then we didn't. Then we didn't need that song. Yeah. Someone was like, what's your thought on Hell's Kitchen? I say, shauna Bean spends most of Act 1 serving food. And I don't like that.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Point is, they do Empire State of Mind at the end of Hell's Kitchen. They do New York, New York at the end of New York, New York. And the audience jumped to their feet both times.

[Chelsea Williams]

They're like, this is what we came for.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And it's like, listen, they do the number well, but I'm sitting there going, I saw it. Same thing with others. I saw all of you sit on your hands for two hours. And now at the end, when they give you something that touches your heart in a chemical way, you walk out and you go, I just saw the.

[Chelsea Williams]

Forget everything else.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. I just saw the best thing ever.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

And that.

[Chelsea Williams]

Do you think that's what the Megamix is in Mamma Mia?

[Matt Koplik]

No, because I had pure joy from start to finish in Mamma Mia.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah. We love Mamma Mia out here.

[Matt Koplik]

Actually, you want to know Mama Mia does really intelligently, is it uses four of the five most iconic ABBA songs in the show, three of which are in Act 1, Mamma Mia. Dancing Queen, something else. And then they do Winner Takes it all in two. And they. I've talked about this all the time. Where they put Winter Takes it all is brilliant.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

And they don't do Waterloo. Waterloo is an encore. It's very. I've said it's well structured well, Mamma Mia. Is stupidity done well. Like Titanique, it's nostalgia done well. And people are always trying to get back to what Mamma Mia. Does. And I'm like, mamma Mia. Is kind of a magic trick. Because also nobody involved with Mamma Mia. Has been able to replicate it. So it's sometimes a good thing, is just a good thing and let it live alone. But no, like you think about all of that with others. I mean, like even just the plot. Usually when somebody passes, everyone wants to speak well of them because you don't want to speak ill of the dead. But also then people make it about themselves. It's not just who they were, it's how they touched me. I'm suffering the most now because I know them so well.

[Chelsea Williams]

Well, that's probably true. Cuz the person who died is dead.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Williams]

So they're not suffering.

[Matt Koplik]

They're not suffering no more. Chelsea. This has been delightful, Matt.

[Chelsea Williams]

It really has.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm so glad you came aboard.

[Chelsea Williams]

Thanks for having me.

[Matt Koplik]

Thanks for finally agreeing.

[Chelsea Williams]

I mean, I agreed a long time ago. We just couldn't get our together.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't like this narrative. I like the narrative that I.

[Chelsea Williams]

That I kept refusing. Yeah, yeah, let's go with that.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She was simply too booked.

[Chelsea Williams]

You're just so hard to spend time with. It's just so unpleasant.

[Matt Koplik]

Chelsea, you can't just say truths like that. On the podcast I have people who decide to listen to me. They can't go, wait a second. Have I been wrong this entire time? You have been. But it's okay. We love you anyway. Chelsea, where can people find you if you want them to find you?

[Chelsea Williams]

I'm on Instagram for the first time in three years. I took a long break, people, which means I am of sound mind. It's Elsee Williams. Chelsea. C H E L S E A Williams W I L L Y U M S yes sir.

[Matt Koplik]

She's quite a sight to see on Instagram, I'll say that.

[Chelsea Williams]

Sometimes you.

[Matt Koplik]

You post when you feel like it.

[Chelsea Williams]

There's. There's a bikini pic on there.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Oh, I saw. Chelsea, if I know when you were in Boston, post grad. I know all of your Instagrams.

[Chelsea Williams]

You. Yeah, you know more than most.

[Matt Koplik]

I know I've got a problem. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Koplik Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating or review. You can also go on the Patreon for extra bonus content. Join us next week for. I don't know what. It's all been out of order, y'. All. But it'll. It'll be exciting either way. Chelsea, in post, I'm gonna add a little diva to sing us out. Who would you like to have us sing out today?

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh, my God. Should we. Should we have some Barrett?

[Matt Koplik]

We can absolutely have Barrett.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Or we can have. Is there a singer you want the children to hear? It could be Barrett. It could be Winona singing Mary had a little lamb. Let all. Lamb let all lamp. Where does that exist in the movie when she and JD Are fighting about curtain? Ram.

[Chelsea Williams]

Oh.

[Matt Koplik]

He goes, you wanted it. She goes, I did not want them dead. He goes, yeah, you did. I did not. Did too. Mary.

[Chelsea Williams]

No. Yeah, that's what it should be. That's what it. For sure. I mean, I feel like we need to honor the movie since we spoke so highly of it this whole time.

[Matt Koplik]

We should. Yeah, we'll close out with that little bit.

[Chelsea Williams]

Yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Young love. All right. So that's it, guys. Yeah. I think this might be the first time in Broadway Breakdown history that we've not only closed out with a movie, but with dialogue instead of song, but Winona Ryder.

[Chelsea Williams]

That feels right.

[Matt Koplik]

It does feel right. This is good for us. All right, take it away, Winona and Christian. See you guys next week.

[Chelsea Williams]

Bye. Bye. I did not want them dead. You did too. I did not. Did too. I did not.

[Matt Koplik]

I did, too. I did not.

[Chelsea Williams]

Did too.

[Matt Koplik]

Did not. Did too.

[Chelsea Williams]

Did not.

[Matt Koplik]

Did not. Did not. Shut up.

[Chelsea Williams]

I did not want them to.

[Matt Koplik]

Come on.

[Chelsea Williams]

You did.

[Matt Koplik]

You just not.

[Chelsea Williams]

Little am.

[Matt Koplik]

Little lamb. I know what you. Young love. Did you hear school's canceled today because.

[Chelsea Williams]

Kurt and Ram killed themselves in a repressed homosexual suicide pact. No way.