KIMBERLY AKIMBO w/ Dad

Summary

Broadway Breakdown Podcast: KIMBERLY AKIMBO with Dad

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Peter Koplik (Matt’s father)
Date: March 23, 2023

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Matt welcomes back his frequently-requested father, Peter, for a deep-dive (and plenty of banter) into Broadway’s Kimberly Akimbo. The dad-and-son duo discuss the musical’s themes, its characters—especially its complicated family dynamic—and the show’s unique bittersweet tone. The episode is as much a heartfelt analysis of the musical and its craft as it is a showcase of their infectious family rapport and love of theater.

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Main Themes

• Realism and optimism in the face of mortality
• Messy families and loving flawed people
• Choosing life (“get busy living, or get busy dying”)
• The power and challenge of telling story through song
• How Kimberly Akimbo balances humor and heartbreak

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal History with Kimberly Akimbo

[02:07]

• Peter saw Kimberly Akimbo for the first time a few days before recording and listened to the cast recording at Matt’s insistence, noting how hearing the lyrics again was a huge help for comprehension.
• Matt, a self-proclaimed superfan, has seen the show four times and adores it:

  “The ultimate reason it’s a good show, why you should think it’s a good show, is that I am telling you it’s good. And I have extraordinary taste.” (Matt, 03:23)

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2. Plot Breakdown & Character Analysis

[04:59]

• Kimberly: A 16-year-old with a fictional condition causing her to age four to five times faster—she looks elderly, life expectancy about 16.

• The show is more about character development than plot—central heist occurs offstage.

• Kimberly’s parents: Both emotionally stunted from having her as teens, self-centered yet not entirely hopeless.

  “They make an effort to be better, but they’re not able.” (Peter, 08:31)

• Patty (Kimberly’s mother): Narcissistic, delusional, believes herself ill/dying, records a legacy video for her yet-to-be-born child.

  “She has protagonist syndrome, which is what I call how we all go about our lives… But Patty thinks that she is, you know, Fosca in passion and has all of the ailments.” (Matt, 10:24)

• Buddy (Kimberly’s dad): Alcoholic and flaky, but more earnest in his love, though his efforts often fail tragically.

  “He thought he was about to come through for her for once. And he yet again fucked up.” (Matt, 41:08)

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3. Differences Between Play & Musical Adaptation

[08:46]

• The original David Lindsay-Abaire play was meaner; Tesori’s adaptation offers more humanity and hope.

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4. Victoria Clark’s Performance as Kimberly

[17:06]

• Both Matt and Peter praise Clark’s skill at “acting the song.”

  “Listening to the cast recording drove home to me how well everyone in the cast, but particularly Victoria Clark, acts the songs.” (Peter, 17:13)

• Clark must balance playing a 16-year-old’s spirit in a senior’s body, using both voice and mannerisms.

  “There are times you can hear the 16-year-old inflection. But she’s still in an older body. She’s got to sound old sometimes… I think that’s very smart.” (Matt, 35:48)

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5. The Score & Its Layers

[13:43, 16:06]

• Tesori’s vocal arrangements are a standout, especially for the “show choir” ensemble.

• The cast recording yields new details even for attentive theatergoers.

  “There are so many nuances to this score, both in the lyrics and in the fucking harmonies. The vocal arrangements for this show are goddamn fire.” (Matt, 15:17)

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6. Favorite & Notable Songs

a) “This Time”

• A pivotal Act 1 song where each character expresses hope, though their pattern of disappointment persists.

  “It’s the first moment in the show where Kimberly is actually joyful… the joy of it makes me really happy. And I cry knowing it’s not going to go as planned.” (Matt, 45:03)

• Compared to “Maybe This Time” from Cabaret.

b) “Make a Wish”

• The “I Want” song, modeled on the Disney tradition. Kimberly’s wishes reveal her yearning for normalcy and beauty.

  “She just wants to live like a normal family for a day. My god, I get teary just thinking about it.” (Matt, 58:44)

c) “Better”

• Aunt Debra’s comedic and slightly profane anthem about survival and “making your shitty life better.”

  “When life gives you lemons… you gotta go out and steal some apples. Cause who the fuck wants lemonade?” (Matt quoting the song, 52:35)

d) “Our Disease”

• Kimberly’s vulnerable science class presentation, climaxing in the powerful lyric:

  “Getting older is my affliction. Getting older is your cure.” (Victoria Clark as Kimberly, ~101:16)

• Matt describes a collective audible “gut punch” gasp from the audience each time.

e) “Great Adventure” (Finale)

• Ends not in tragedy, but in a moment of possibility as Kimberly and Seth “see the world.”

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7. On Bitter Comedy, Flawed Love & Uplift

[62:56, 63:00, 68:48]

• The show is “about a lot of really broken people trying to do better, and a lot of them unable for a very long period of time.”
• “People can love you and still hurt you”—sometimes by accident, sometimes not.
• Growth is subtle: “No one is fixed at the end. Nobody has done a total 180. But there is a chance for everyone to get better.”

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8. Reflecting on Reception & Accessibility

[73:34, 74:57]

• Matt tries to convince his 99-year-old grandmother to see the show, reassuring her it’s not as bleak as it sounds. Peter reflects that the finale is quietly uplifting, not manipulative or saccharine.

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9. Tesori’s Genius & Genre Fluidity

[93:47, 95:00]

• Matt asserts Tesori is “the greatest living musical theater composer,” citing her range (Violet, Caroline, or Change, Thoroughly Modern Millie, Fun Home, Shrek).
• The musical features 70s funk, 90s indie-pop, actable ballads, and signature bittersweet finales.

  “Her music is so actable… There’s a drive to it.” (Matt, 95:53)

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10. Final Judgements & Who Should See Kimberly Akimbo

[115:19]

• Peter:

  “It’s touching, it’s musically brilliant, and it’s a great example of telling a story with songs, which is difficult to do, often tried, rarely succeeds. It’s good enough and rare enough to make it worth going out of your way.” (115:19)

• Matt:

  “I can objectively tell you, it’s a well crafted show. You may not like it… but it’s objectively well done, it’s fantastically acted, it’s got Victoria Clark—who, I’m sorry children, you need to watch and learn from.” (118:44)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Matt: “Extraordinary is distinct from good.” (03:43)
• Peter: “Be here now. Don’t just mail it in or pretend you’re listening... If you’re going to do it, do it.” (49:27)
• Peter: “Empathy is rarely a prominent quality in teenagers.” (67:19)
• Matt: “The show is not hateful. The show is about a lot of really broken people trying to do better.” (89:07)
• Peter: “The show ends with her joy. She has the capacity for joy, and that’s rare.” (103:57)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Plot & Character Setup: 04:59 – 13:00
• Acting & Vocal Performance (Victoria Clark): 16:55 – 23:50
• Score & Recording Insights: 13:43 – 16:06; 53:09
• Favorite Songs Discussion (“This Time”, “Make a Wish”, “Better”): 43:32 – 45:28, 54:59 – 57:43
• Emotional & Thematic Analysis: 58:44 – 68:48
• Show’s Comedy & Uplift: 74:57 – 77:07
• Janine Tesori’s Range & Finale Analysis: 93:47 – 109:50
• Final Thoughts – Who Should See the Show & Why: 115:19 – 118:44

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Conclusion

Matt and Peter Koplik’s Kimberly Akimbo episode is hilarious, warm, and deeply insightful—a spirited defense and celebration of a musical that embraces bittersweet messiness and finds profound optimism in everyday struggle. They encourage anyone—especially those wary of “sad” shows—to see Kimberly Akimbo for its humor, heart, and unique “uplift.”

“People regret they didn’t do it sooner… But you ask yourself, how many times before it’s enough? And Kimberly is the one who finally cuts the ties, not her parents.” (Matt, 70:18)

In short: Go see Kimberly Akimbo. Laugh. Cry. Take in Victoria Clark’s masterclass. And then live life—akimbo.

Transcript

[Announcer]

Attention, skaters.

[Matt Koplik]

Please clear the rink while the ice is resurfaced. Thank you for your patience.

[Announcer]

Out there. It's Saturday night at Skater Planet. There's ambronies on the ice so we hang around here waiting all the actions at the call we'd rather be here skating the action but we'd rather be here skating in New Jersey.

[Matt Koplik]

Hello all theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. Welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called the Big Move, and it is covering shows that had such success off Broadway, they just had to move to the Great White Way and try some luck over there. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a returning guest of the podcast. You know him, some of you love him. A lot of you requested his return. For some reason, he's still confused as to why, but we'll see how this goes. Peter Koplik, AKA my father, AKA Boo Boo. But only I get to call him that. Hi, Boo Boo.

[Peter Koplik]

Wonders never cease.

[Matt Koplik]

Wonders never cease. How are you today, dear?

[Peter Koplik]

I'm fine. Looking forward to talking about our subject matter for the day, which is Kimberly Akimbo.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. You saw it for the first. So we were recording this on Monday, March 20th. You saw it for the very first time this past Thursday.

[Peter Koplik]

First and only.

[Matt Koplik]

First only so far.

[Peter Koplik]

You.

[Matt Koplik]

You'll be coming back to New York. You don't know what I'm going to drag you to when you're. When you're here.

[Peter Koplik]

It's a world of opportunity.

[Matt Koplik]

That's one of the themes of the show. That's. So let's get into it then, that this is your history with Kimberly Akimbo. You just saw it the one time on Thursday. You listened to the cast recording this weekend. I made you.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, that's a good thing I did because as you know, my hearing is defective and the cast recording enabled me to understand and digest the lyrics a lot better than when I saw it live. But there were, you know, there were a lot of differences in how I reacted to it when I listened to it only as opposed to seeing it live. It's both a blessing and a curse.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. Well, I'm glad you could get a better listen to the lyrics because I think the lyrics are great. Full disclosure as we go into this episode, everybody. I have now seen the show four times, including when I saw it a year ago off Broadway. I love this show.

[Peter Koplik]

Speaking Of a blessing and a curse. Four times.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And so what? How many times did you see Amos behave in?

[Peter Koplik]

Too many.

[Matt Koplik]

No, not if it brings you joy. My point being, as we talk about the show, I just want to have a full disclosure on this. I think the show is great and we will get into reasons why I think objectively it is a good show. Just know this. The ultimate reason it's a good show, why you should think it's a good show, why you should go see it, is that I am telling you it's good. And I have extraordinary taste. So true. On all counts, 1,000%. I never said I was modest, I just said I had great taste.

[Peter Koplik]

Extraordinary is distinct from good.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Yeah. I chose my words perfectly. It's not just good taste, it's extraordinary.

[Peter Koplik]

You know how I feel about precision in language, Matthew.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Well, speaking of precision in language, the title of this musical is due to language anagrams. What's an anagram? Papa.

[Peter Koplik]

It's a respelling of existing words into different words.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. The letters get rearranged to create a new. A new word or multiple words to create multiple words.

[Peter Koplik]

Close enough.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And that is how we get the title of this musical. Because our leading lady is Kimberly Lavaco and the boy with whom she has a crush on Seth Weedes, enjoys anagrams and he rearranges her the letters of her name to become cleverly akimbo. So the title of the musical is a combination of the two, which I find just fucking delightful. What is Kimberly of Kimbo about, Father?

[Peter Koplik]

I'm not sure I can give a 25 words or less answers to that because it's about a lot plot wise.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, give as much. Do your best plot wise.

[Peter Koplik]

Kimberly is a 16 year old girl who has a condition that makes her age geometrically and therefore has a life expectancy of about 16. And that is what the plot centers on. Her friends, her family. Heist plot.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And involving a mailbox.

[Peter Koplik]

The uplift at the end that. That is the center of two numbers in the second act that are very touching, but as I said, uplift.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely.

[Peter Koplik]

The point being this is a girl who's going to live while she's alive and not live waiting to die.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So we'll get into all the details.

[Peter Koplik]

A lesson for all of us.

[Matt Koplik]

I agree we'll get into the details as we continue with this. But that is the central plot of the show. There's not much narrative. Overall, the big plot crux would be the scam that her aunt Deborah coerces Her and her friend. Exactly. But we never actually watched that happen. That happens off stage. A lot of it is just sort of character development. And Kimberly. What's interesting about Kimberly is. So she turns 16 at the end of Act 1 and we are told that the average life expectancy for someone with her condition, which is a fictional condition by the way, she ages 4 to 4, 4 to 5 times faster than the average human. So even though she is 16, she is in the body of a 65 to 70 year old woman, hence Victoria Clarke.

[Peter Koplik]

And when you get to my age, you start aging fast.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, you know, it's a slippery slope. It's a stone gathering moss.

[Peter Koplik]

You ain't kidding.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I'm not. I've never, I've never kid a day in my life. I stand by everything I've ever said but her. Kimberly was born, her parents were teenagers themselves when they had her. They think they were 16, 17. So they're sort of stuck in arrested development.

[Peter Koplik]

Accidents happen.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, exactly. Not on the itinerary. Baby is how I like to describe that. The one of the jokes we hear is her mom saying to Kimberly very seriously, but it's. I find it funny is when she says, I would have been prom queen if I hadn't been pregnant. And then says to Kimberly, you cost me several votes.

[Peter Koplik]

And that's a good one.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a very good one. Again, her parents are. So this is something that I know is a sticking point for a lot of people with this show is the quote unquote meanness that's in there. And I have to say, if you read the play, because it's based on David. Lindsay Abair, who did the book in lyrics, wrote the play that it's based off of. It was composer Jeanine Tesori's idea to adapt the play into a musical because she reread it and said to him, I think that there's more that you could explore here. And if you read the original play, it's a lot meaner. Her parents are truly awful in the play, whereas in the musical it's more explored that they do love her, but they are just such messes and they are so self centered and such fuck ups.

[Peter Koplik]

They may they make an effort to be better, but they're not able.

[Matt Koplik]

No, well, not able with her. Which is sort of the. When we meet Kimberly's father, he is almost three hours late in picking her up drunk and almost three hours late picking her up from the ice skating rink. And it is, you know, 15 degrees outside and she's been waiting for hours. And when they get back home, the mom is pregnant with casts on both hands from carpal tunnel surgery, which she probably did not need because she's a bit of a hypochondriac and again, a narcissist.

[Peter Koplik]

Why would I have surgery on my hands if I didn't need it?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, that's what she's. She. She's pregnant. And recording a video message to her soon to be born baby.

[Announcer]

16 years I worked in the Sunshine cupcake factory pumping cream into those ding dong knockoffs. Sixteen years of squeezing, squeezing, squeezing that goddamn cream gun. I should sue. I should sue.

[Matt Koplik]

I tried, actually, but they said I.

[Announcer]

Made the whole thing up. How crazy is that? Why would I get operations on both hands if I did not need them?

[Peter Koplik]

Money.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And also because she's a little bonkers.

[Peter Koplik]

It was never clear to me why she was making the video, because as.

[Matt Koplik]

She says, people are gonna tell you things about me that just aren't true.

[Peter Koplik]

Does the mother have a very limited life expectancy?

[Matt Koplik]

She thinks so. That's. Again, this is the thing she. They say, you're not dying, Patty. And she goes, of course I am. Everyone does. And you just don't know when it's gonna happen. In her mind, she could go the day after the baby is born.

[Peter Koplik]

That's the level of delusion that they don't make clear.

[Matt Koplik]

I think they do. I think the they. Again, they're trying not to go off the deep end with either character because they have to have a window open still for redemption by the end of the show. So there's humanity in there. But what makes them kind of off is Patty, the mother, has a level of delusion about herself where she thinks that every. Every illness could possibly happen to her. Maybe even does. And she has protagonist syndrome, which is what I like to call how we all go about our lives, because we are the main characters of our own lives, and therefore we think everything happens to us.

[Peter Koplik]

And the truth is, some of us become more grounded and realize that it doesn't.

[Matt Koplik]

We're just day players in the. In the main story of the world. But Patty thinks that she is, you know, Fosca in passion and has all of the ailments. So she's making the videos out of her own narcissism of wanting to preserve her legacy and thinking that she could go at any moment.

[Peter Koplik]

I liked her performance better when I heard the soundtrack than I did watching it live.

[Matt Koplik]

Why was that for you?

[Peter Koplik]

First of all, it's a great singing Voice.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

And I think I understood and therefore appreciated how she was acting the songs when I heard them more clearly. Perhaps I'm characteristic of people my age, but I'm often struggling to understand the words as I'm hearing them in the theater. And therefore not. Not just sort of sitting back and taking it in and listening to the cast recording. I'm sort of absorbing it more and hearing what's being said instead of sort of focusing to get it. I thought she was. She was terrific. And, as I said, appreciated her more the second time.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, I think that's absolutely fair. And I will say for myself, again, as someone.

[Peter Koplik]

So are you saying that your father, unlike life, is fair?

[Matt Koplik]

No, no.

[Peter Koplik]

Only in this case, in this moment.

[Matt Koplik]

In time, in this room that we are in, which, by the way, everyone, last time my father was on the podcast, we recorded via FaceTime on opposite sides of the country. This time we're in the same room. So you get to hear our camaraderie and our banter in real time. It's wonderful, isn't it, Papa?

[Peter Koplik]

There was no compensation for the flight to New York.

[Matt Koplik]

Compensation? Who do you think I am? What podcast do you think you're on? What network do you think this is?

[Peter Koplik]

Sadly, I'm quite aware.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. This is not. Dax Shepard, armchair expert. How dare you? I, much as I would love to be, I am not married to Kristen Bell. But. No, what I was gonna say was. So I. Again, I saw the show at the Atlantic Theatre Company, hence why it's on this series that we are doing. It's also a Jeanine and it's a Janine Tesori musical. And we did Tesori last season. Two seasons ago, we did. Sorry, two seasons ago. So it matches two things up at the Atlantic. I thought it was really delightful. It was still a little mean spirited downtown, a little more so than it is now. And it wasn't quite as tight. I think they shaved off about like 5 to 10 minutes between off Broadway and Broadway, and it was just like.

[Peter Koplik]

Never a bad idea.

[Matt Koplik]

No. And I've always said, you know, people say, oh, it should be 20 minutes shorter. It should be 30 minutes shorter. I say, no, you have to kind of be strategic. Because sometimes cutting out the correct five minutes, you don't need to cut 20. If you cut the right moments out of certain things, which is what they did. They didn't cut whole chunks. They mostly just went through and would cut two or three lines from every scene, tighten up some tempos. Anyway, I bring this up because I Saw it at the Atlantic, I thought it was lovely. And then I saw it on Broadway. In December? No, in November. In November, because I was in a good headspace when I saw Kimberly Akimbo. I saw Kimberly Akimbo before my world went to shit at the end of November. But the point is that I always liked the show and I always liked the score. And I know some people have had qualms with the score. I don't exactly know what their qualms are, objectively, because I think the score does exactly what it's supposed to do. Point is, when the cast album came out about a month ago, I listened to it and was blown away by things that I just did not pick up on in the theater. And I think the sound design on this production is. Is very strong. But there are things you just can't get across in a theater with visuals, with breath support. The balancing just will never be as exact as it can be in a cast recording. There are so many nuances to this score, both in the lyrics and in the fucking harmonies. The vocal arrangements for this show are goddamn fire. The show choir, the four teens, their arrangements are so good that I could just listen to them all day in the opening in Skater Planet. Their backups in Deborah songs in better. And in how to Wash a Check, just so good. And I bring this up because you talked about hearing the cast album, how certain things resonated with you better than in the theater. You're not alone with that. I have better hearing than you do. And I heard the casting.

[Peter Koplik]

It's a low bar.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. But still I clear it. And I listened to the cast recording for the first time and was just absolutely gobsmacked by all the wonderful things in the score. I did not pick up on it in the theater. And I think that some performances, because you don't have the. I don't want to call it distractions, because there's nothing distracting on stage in this show. But still, when everything is cleared away and you just sort of listen to the raw material, you can get a new appreciation for certain performances. And I do think Ally Mozzie as the mom helps with that.

[Peter Koplik]

One of the, for lack of a better word, miracles of musical theater, which I guess is derivative from opera, is the way you can tell a story with songs.

[Matt Koplik]

Uh huh.

[Peter Koplik]

And act the songs. Theoretically, you're supposed to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I'm saying you're supposed to act the songs. Do everybody? I wouldn't say so.

[Peter Koplik]

Listening to the cast recording drove home to me how well everyone in the Cast, but particularly Victoria Clarke acts the songs. And I think when I was watching it, so much of normal acting is done with your face. And I don't know that I focus well on both at the same time. But when I'm not watching the actors act, I'm listening to them act with their voice. And the cast recording just drove that home. I mean, she, she was fabulous.

[Matt Koplik]

The first time you saw Victoria Clarke was in Follies in la, right? You didn't. Yeah. You didn't see her in Light in the Piazza?

[Peter Koplik]

No, I never saw Light in the Piazza. Another of my Mrs. But she, she was fabulous in Follies. When has she not been fabulous?

[Matt Koplik]

Well, yeah, no, that. So that's the thing. I've seen. I've seen Vicky, Ms. Clark, if you're nasty. I've seen her in Piazza.

[Peter Koplik]

What did she call you?

[Matt Koplik]

Who? That's who she calls me.

[Peter Koplik]

Who?

[Matt Koplik]

I know, she's. She's incredible. I saw her in Piazza with Nanny. I saw her in Cinderella. I saw her in Sister Act. I've seen her in Gigi and now I've seen her in this.

[Peter Koplik]

And she played Sushi.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she played. She played Hermione Gingold and in Gigi.

[Peter Koplik]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Koplik]

Which. And they gave her say A Prayer for Me Miscast. Well, I'm not going to get into Gigi, which I saw on opening night with Papasan. But needless to say, that whole production was a misfire. The two things they got right were the costumes and giving Victoria Clarke say A Prayer for Me Tonight, which they changed to say A Prayer for Her Tonight. And if she didn't get that song, Victoria Clarke would not have been Tony nominated Gigi. But I digress. Vicki has not won a Tony since Piazza, so she's. She's due. And I will talk about that more in next week's episode as we do Tony predictions, which this podcast will be doing until Tony time. But Vicky is, in my opinion, top three singing actresses of the stage right now. Her, Audra and probably Kunzy, probably Ms. Judy Kuhn in the sense that they really can sort of do any genre of acting and they can do any genre of music. As they've gotten older and have more control over their careers, they choose what they want to sing more often. Vicky in her early days, dad, she did fucking everything. She was Smitty in the how to Succeed revival with Matthew Broderick. They gave her a reprise of how to because they cut Cinderella Darling and she was about to walk. She was like, you've given me no reason to be in the show. And I have a newborn. Why the fuck am I here? And they said, we'll give you a reprise of the title song and give you feminist lyrics.

[Peter Koplik]

Did you think Coffee Break was enough?

[Matt Koplik]

No. She's got to share the stage with Bud from. She's like, I want to be center stage and I want a belt, please. And she does, and she sounds great. She plays Alice Beale, I think is her last name in Titanic, where she only has one bit, really, in the opening song where she's. She's listing off all the first class passengers for the Titanic. But God damn, does she sing it so well. And she belts. The end. She must be somebody. And then she was Pennywise for a bit in Urinetown. She did Piazza Cinderella, like woman can just do it all and was a phenomenal. Sally, last time you and I were on the phone, we were talking about something. I don't know, something about the Oscars. And somehow it devolved into Vicky versus Bernadette as Sally and Follies. This is where our conversations go when my dad and I talk on the phone. We'll talk about our health, we'll talk about the weather, we'll talk about your mom. And then I'll just go into, like, Follies. Or we'll quote Some Like It Hot.

[Peter Koplik]

Some people got no respect for the dead.

[Matt Koplik]

No fair guessing. I wish you'd quote Birdcage with me more. I like.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't know what.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, you gotta watch it more then, babe. Start watching it more.

[Peter Koplik]

I only have so much bandwidth.

[Matt Koplik]

That's not true.

[Peter Koplik]

You have so much Some Like It Hot. I've got down pretty much word for.

[Matt Koplik]

Word Some Like It Hot, All About Eve. Let me give you a setup for one of our favorites. Why do they always look like unhappy rabbits?

[Peter Koplik]

Because that's what they are. Go make him happy.

[Matt Koplik]

Mm. That was my Marilyn, everybody.

[Peter Koplik]

Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, I can't call him Butler. His last name might be Butler.

[Peter Koplik]

You have a point. An idiotic one, but a point.

[Matt Koplik]

This is where we're at. Oh, before we continue, let's take a break.

[Announcer]

Billy, I'd beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Announcer]

You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar Tread of the.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back. I don't know if you know this, Papa, but I'm on a network now, which means we have advertisers, which means I have to take breaks in this podcast.

[Peter Koplik]

Hopefully your network doesn't go down as much as mine does.

[Matt Koplik]

Fingers crossed. We were talking about Vicki. We're talking about Miss Victoria Clark. So.

[Peter Koplik]

As opposed to Bernadette.

[Matt Koplik]

As opposed to Bernadette and Follies, which we could go into if you want, but we don't have to.

[Peter Koplik]

You saw her there, Done that.

[Matt Koplik]

Saw her in Follies. That was your first time seeing her? Had. Were you aware of her before?

[Peter Koplik]

I was aware of her, but I hadn't seen her.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And you enjoyed her in Follies?

[Peter Koplik]

She was great.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

You know, she was well c. Well cast.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

As you said, she can probably do anything and she can sing the hell out of anything and act it, which Follies really calls for.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And you had mentioned earlier, which I was throwing shade at before. Theoretically speaking, in a musical, you should be acting through your song, not just singing it. And there are people who do do that. Victoria Clarke is in our top three people who do that. Not everyone do, though. There are many a Broadway show I could point you to and say, see that robot over there? They are not acting, but we're not here to throw anyone under the bus yet. What was your take on Vicky in Kimberly when you were watching it versus when you were listening to her?

[Peter Koplik]

I was watching her face and her body language and her mannerisms more than absorbing her singing.

[Matt Koplik]

I think she would probably be very pleased to hear that, because if you focus just on the voice, do you.

[Peter Koplik]

Have contact information for her? I'm happy to pass.

[Matt Koplik]

I am very, very well connected. I know everyone. Do I talk to everyone? No. Because some people are assholes. No, but she's. I mean, she's an actress and she.

[Peter Koplik]

I would like to make her happy.

[Matt Koplik]

She's very happy on her own.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't think she needs me to be happy.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she's.

[Peter Koplik]

If I can throw another log on.

[Matt Koplik]

The fire, that bitch is living her best life. She doesn't need either of us to make her happy. She. But I have read her chapter in Nothing Like a Dame. She wanted to be a director. That's how she got into this business, was she was trying to become a director. She became. She. I mean, she always acted, but she became a Broadway actress by accident. She was in the directing program, I think, at nyu, maybe. And the. I think I'm mixing up all the historical information, so apologies, everybody, but essentially she was in a directing program, and they would work a lot with the songwriting program and in order. And she was one of the few singers of the directing class, so whenever the songwriters had material, she would get up and perform it. And one of the songwriters was working on Sunday in the park with George on Broadway and they were casting a swing in the show and they were like, vicky, go in. And she did booked it and from there on just started performing more. She was on the tour of Cats and Les Mis and she was offered, I believe, the resident director or associate director position for. For Les Miserables and ended up taking, I think, Guys and Dolls instead of where she understudied Faith Prince. And she doesn't.

[Peter Koplik]

She could do either of those. Well, she talked Guys and Dolls.

[Matt Koplik]

She talked about Guys and Dolls. She was in the missionary group and understudied Adelaide and went on for two weeks and said that it was difficult because Nathan Lane was not the most collaborative and gracious. Basically made her rehearse every day with management because she wasn't Faith Prince and wanted to get a Faith Prince performance out of her for the two weeks that she was on. And she resented that. And she said, they're good now. Now that she's a Tony winner, they've mended the fence. But she had said, from doing the Guys and Dolls experience with Nathan Lane as she became a proper lead on Broadway, how to be a gracious lead and how to be supportive and collaborative with the understudies, because they are not there to give you the same exact performance. They have to do some things the same for the sake of safety, but they're a different person with their own interpretation of the role.

[Peter Koplik]

Most work lives give people examples of both how to behave and how not to behave. And hopefully one can learn from both of them. I certainly have had both.

[Matt Koplik]

I inferred a little bit about this in the Spring Awakening episode. There is. It's really tricky when you get success early on in your career at a young age. If not to say that. Not to say that everyone's got a struggle. But I have found that the performers and the creatives that took a while to blow up have the most level heads because they. Not only do they work hard for it, but they. They were in positions before where they were not treated well.

[Peter Koplik]

They saw what it was like.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. In the same way that I think, first of all, everyone in high school and college should take one dance class to learn about movement. Movement and space management, about how to just be aware of your body. I think also in college, everyone needs to spend a semester working in a restaurant because everyone's got to learn about how to be gracious to each other and how some jobs may not be glamorous, but they require a lot of effort and hard work. But with Spring Awakening, what I kind of talked about was they, so sorry to my listeners who already heard this, but my father has not. They released a documentary last year about the original cast doing a reunion concert of Spring Awakening on the stage of the Imperial. And they, you know, did interviews and they sort of talked about the history of the show. And that show meant a lot to a lot of people. I was a Grey Gardens kid. But you already know this. Jonathan Groff says at one point in the documentary, you know, it's crazy. Even though it took a little bit for the show to finally find its footing and find an audience, when it did blow up, the success of the show didn't go to anybody's head. And oh boy, did I shout bullshit at my TV screen when I watched that. Jonathan Groff is notoriously one of the loveliest people in this industry. Not a bad word has been said about him by anyone. However, it is absolutely Vaseline on the lens of your memory to say that it didn't affect everyone because, bitch, I was there. I actually knew some of those people at the time. I knew people who knew other people in that cast. And I don't care who you are when you're 19 and your face is on a billboard in Times Square and you've got hundreds of people at the stage door every night telling you you're, you're famous and an icon, it does something to you.

[Peter Koplik]

What do you think happens to professional athletes who become worth hundreds of millions of dollars when they're 20 or 22 years old?

[Matt Koplik]

What do you think happens to them?

[Peter Koplik]

It messes them up.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. John Mulaney has a bit about this in one of his old, old standards.

[Peter Koplik]

But I, I could say it messes some of them up. It does not happen to everybody.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, and, well, I'm not saying this necessarily as addictive.

[Peter Koplik]

There's a famous case right now where a guy who plays in the NBA just was suspended and, and you know, he's, it's, it's a, it's a horror show, I'm sure. And you know, he's a spectacular great player who's very close to destroying his life by getting, making a TikTok video of himself in a nightclub brandishing a gun.

[Matt Koplik]

That's a choice for sure. Victoria Clark will never do that, and that's why we love her.

[Peter Koplik]

But young, rich or, yeah, famous people, it does something to their brain.

[Matt Koplik]

John Mulaney had a bit in an old stand up where he had friends ask him about hosts of Saturday Night Live back when he was a writer, because he was a writer when Mick Jagger was on the show and they said, oh, is Mick Jagger nice? And he said, no. Or maybe he is for his version of nice. He goes, but he has been Mick Jagger for 50 years. That does something to you when you walk into a stadium of 20, 20,000 people screaming your name like you're a God.

[Peter Koplik]

Or 80,000 or 80,000.

[Matt Koplik]

And for decades, we're talking fucking decades. That man has been famous and wealthy and worshiped since he was a baby. And here we are. But that I say this because someone like Victoria Clarke, it's about the work, it's about respect, it's about collaboration. And that's why I love her. You know, Audra might be the only person on Broadway who got famous really young, very quickly, and it has not made her awful, but I think that's because she had her own struggles before Broadway with Juilliard that grounded her. But Audra McDonald burst onto the scene at 24 and immediately everyone was like, well, here we go. This is our next living legend.

[Peter Koplik]

You know, there are illustrations you can cite on each side of this. Jamie Lee Curtis has handled celebrity from a young age. Really well grounded, productive, uses her celebrity for things that she thinks are worthwhile. And, you know, I don't know this woman, but as I said, I do. She seems grounded to have common sense at some level. Julie Andrews has done that.

[Matt Koplik]

But you, you read Julie Andrews memoir and you see all the struggles that she also had to go through. Julie Andrews also got famous at a time very young, very young, but also on Broadway where, you know, yes, you're on the COVID of Time magazine and all that stuff, but there's no social media. You're not.

[Peter Koplik]

Also, she didn't get My Fair lady and that had to hurt, sure, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Then she got Mary Poppins at the same time. But the men that Julie Andrews had to work with in her. Julie Andrews was also a woman in the entertainment industry and worked with some of the biggest shits that you have to be tough and you have to be grounded to work with Rex Harrison for two and a half years, Richard Burton for a year and a half. My God, the level of stamina you.

[Peter Koplik]

Need, correct me if I'm wrong, and we digress because this we're supposed to.

[Matt Koplik]

We're getting back to it. Don't worry.

[Peter Koplik]

My sense, you would probably know better than me, is that Richard Burton was nicer than. Than Rex Harrison, but Richard Burton was a little more crazy.

[Matt Koplik]

Richard Burton was nicer to her because she was successful by that point. And also because Richard Burton really desperately wanted to have sex with her. Rex Harrison.

[Peter Koplik]

Who wouldn't?

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, but that's beside the point. Who wouldn't?

[Peter Koplik]

No, it's exactly the point.

[Matt Koplik]

Who wouldn't? Who hasn't? Rex Harrison was mean to her until they went out of town. And that's also due to Rex Harrison's own insecurity about being in a musical. He was going out on a limb to be in a Broadway musical of a play that everyone said was unadaptable for the stage as a musical with a leading lady who had, quote, unquote, never acted before. And by her own account, she was bad in rehearsal until Moss Hart shut down and taught her how to act. And it wasn't until they got out of town and the show was proven to be a success and where she stepped up to the plate and sort of guided him through sits, probes and shit like that that he got nicer to her.

[Peter Koplik]

I wish Moss Hart had been available when you were going to college. We could have hired him and I could have saved four years of tuition.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure, sure.

[Peter Koplik]

I mean, you know how to do this. But it could have been a lot faster and cheaper. He did it in a weekend.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. And Julie Andrews has an Oscar. I don't. We digress. You go back to Kimberly Akimbo.

[Peter Koplik]

She's an egot, isn't she?

[Matt Koplik]

No, because she doesn't have a Tony. Maybe it's a lifetime achievement Tony, but she doesn't have a competitive one.

[Peter Koplik]

She did win a Tony for My Fair Lady.

[Matt Koplik]

I believe she lost to Judy Holiday and Bells are Ringing, which is a tough one to go up against Bill. That's a star vehicle and it was Judy Holiday.

[Peter Koplik]

Far be it for me to criticize the late great Judy Holiday, but I.

[Matt Koplik]

Don'T remember who beat her when she did Camelot.

[Peter Koplik]

But she wasn't as good in Camelot.

[Matt Koplik]

Camelot also just wasn't as good in general. Yeah. No one wins a Tony for singing the Lusty Month of May. You get nominated, you don't win. Although. No, no, Eliza Doolittle has won the Tony on Broadway. Or the Oscar for that matter. Poor Audrey. We digress. Kimberly Akimbo, with Victoria's performance, what I really appreciate, especially each time I watch it, is that I think with her body she's able to convey the 16.

[Peter Koplik]

Year old that Kimberly Levoxact and she's using her body to be a girl.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. What I like about her voice and also what I think the score is really smart to do because I remember when the show was at the Atlantic Off Broadway, and then when it was in previews, people would complain about the music that they thought that the score should be transposed for Victoria so she could use her chest more because she wasn't sounding young. To which I say she, her character is almost 16, but her body is 65. So I think the score is actually very smart in how Vicki uses her voice in that there are times where you can hear the 16 year old inflection. But she's still in older body. She's got to sound old sometimes, and I think that's very smart.

[Peter Koplik]

But she doesn't sound 80, which is how old her body is.

[Matt Koplik]

No, her body isn't 80. Her body is.

[Peter Koplik]

What's the life expectancy? Whatever you say.

[Matt Koplik]

So that's. So the scene she has with Seth Weedes before Anagram where they talk about her disease because the whole reason they get together is they partner up for their bio class to do a presentation on a disease, and they decide to do her disease, which they never actually say the name of. And as he's fact checking some stuff that he looked up about and, you know, asking her, he asks her how the chromosomes work. Okay, you get one chromosome from the mom, one from the dad. If both parents have it, there's always going to be a 25% chance that the child will have it, which is important, y', all, because then there's a big reveal in Act 2. But the other thing he asks is, oh, so when you were 8, you looked 32. When he's like, and when you're 20, you're. You'll look. She's like, I guess I'll look about 90. She goes, but the average life expectancy is 16. It's just an average, though, which is.

[Peter Koplik]

One of those 64.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

So even I can do the math.

[Matt Koplik]

But God, every time she says it's just an average, it's just. That's one of the most heartbreaking lines in the show to me, because she doesn't say it with Asking for Pity, she's trying to sort of shrug it off. But, you know, 16 is fast approaching for her. But yeah, the, the idea is that she's in her mid-60s. And so there is a combination of having to both sound young and old that I think she does really well and is really fucking hard to do.

[Peter Koplik]

I haven't managed it.

[Matt Koplik]

No, your, your, your essence is young.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't get paid to do it, though.

[Matt Koplik]

So this Is true. Well, actually, no, I take that back. You've been an old soul since you were like nine, according to Grandma. Grandma has said that you were basically a middle aged man in elementary school.

[Peter Koplik]

Thank you.

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think that's a dissatisf. You know, I have this, I have this image of you as a child, like dressing up in your jacket and tie for Riverdale and just take and like you're walking into work with a briefcase. That's how I view you.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't think I've ever communicated to you what having a four year older brother was like and the degree to which my personality was molded by that.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, having a four year old older brother who is Rick. Let's be. Let's. That's the other thing. It's.

[Peter Koplik]

I'm not gonna.

[Matt Koplik]

No, what I'm saying is that the person matters just as much as all the other details. Right. I have a sister who's two and a half years older than me and it's Laura. If it weren't Laura, the circumstances would be very different. Like if Sarah Devini were my two and a half year older sister, it'd be a very different dynamic. In the same way that just because Kimberly's parents were 16 when they had her doesn't mean that all parents of that age bracket are like Kimberly's parents. You know, Kimberly's parents are sort of the antidote to Lorelei Gilmore of Gilmore Girls, which tells you, oh, you could be friends with your kid if you have them at 16. Whereas Kimberly Akimbo's like, sure, but if your parents are mentally stable, stunted and emotionally stunted, you can't be friends with them. In fact, you end up taking care of them more than they take care of you.

[Peter Koplik]

That sort of happens to everybody. If we live long enough.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, but not when you're 16.

[Peter Koplik]

Hasn't happened to you yet, but we're getting there.

[Matt Koplik]

That's one of the things that Kimberly kind of sings about in Act 2, though, in her big goodbye song Before I Go, where she sings, you know, I was never the daughter you wanted. You wanted someone who would hold your hand as you got older. And that's not going to happen with us. Which in a way is kind of why her mom isn't sort of shut down towards Kimberly. Like it's very like her mom loves her. But you can kind of tell that the idea of openly loving her too much will be too painful for the day when Kimberly eventually will die, which is gonna happen sooner rather than later.

[Peter Koplik]

That's true.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

I think that speaks a lot to what's going on with the mother. I mean, she was going to be prom queen. Such disloyal voters.

[Matt Koplik]

Such disloyal voters. Come on, give her one last burst of glory before she gives birth to a titty sucking parasite otherwise known as a child. The dad is a little more openly. You're welcome.

[Peter Koplik]

Did you have to go there? Sure did. Was that an enhancement to the podcast?

[Matt Koplik]

1,000%. This is what?

[Peter Koplik]

I guess you know your audience.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure do, baby. I don't like the way this feels. And I don't want to see them flirting. I don't want him near my Kim because I don't want her getting hurt. I think I need to shut this down. I think I let it go too far. I need to nip this in the bud. I need to stop this speeding car.

[Announcer]

Enough.

[Matt Koplik]

My daughter is a precious flower. I won't allow her to be picked.

[Announcer]

Oh, God.

[Matt Koplik]

What now? I'm not trying to be mean, and I don't mean to be, but the dad in Kimberly. God, what's his name? Buddy. Buddy is a little more earnestly loving towards.

[Peter Koplik]

He's also more self aware.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, but he. He's more or tries to be more there for her than the mom does. He's probably more of a fuck up than she is. He's a. He is an alcoholic.

[Peter Koplik]

Booze will do that to you.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, he's constant and. But I mean, one of the moments in the show that I have had people say to me that they hated because they thought it was so mean spirited, to which I'm like, no, it's dead devastating because he was trying and he just wasn't able to. Is. He keeps on promising Kimberly that they'll go to Great Adventure in Six Flags. And in Act 1, halfway through Act 1, he shows up late one night home drunk, having done another bar bet. The mango, the mango always wins. Puts the mango in his mouth and he shows up with park passes to Great Adventure. And Kimberly is excited for all of 60 seconds until she realizes that the passes expired two years ago. And Buddy doesn't know this. He genuinely thought he was about to do a wonderful thing for his daughter. He thought he was about to come through for her for once. And he yet again fucked up. And that is devastating.

[Peter Koplik]

I'm listening to everything you're saying and I cannot get out of my consciousness. Titty sucking parasite.

[Matt Koplik]

You're very fucking welcome.

[Peter Koplik]

That was. That was so unnecessary.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure was not. It sure was not.

[Peter Koplik]

You know, it was difficult for me to get that phrase out.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, why should.

[Peter Koplik]

That is truly something that I have never and will never again say.

[Matt Koplik]

First of all, Walt Whitman's got nothing on me. Second of all, hold on to it forever. These are the things that stay with you. My father is holding on to his diaphragm because he cannot contain himself. I have ruined my father. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the end of Peter Khan, like as we know it.

[Peter Koplik]

Matthew's mission is accomplished and his work is done. There is nothing left that he needs to do.

[Matt Koplik]

You're very welcome. Aren't you so glad that I'm your son?

[Peter Koplik]

Of course I am. Not necessarily for the reasons that you think I should be, but I certainly am.

[Announcer]

It's Friday night in Bergen County. There are parties everywhere, and we finally got invited. This time, this time A better life begin.

[Matt Koplik]

Listening to the cast album, were there any songs that stuck out to you in particular?

[Peter Koplik]

Yes, in a word. Now, before I go.

[Matt Koplik]

The last three songs, in general, this time, this time makes me cry. Every single performance that I see of it.

[Peter Koplik]

That's it.

[Matt Koplik]

Those were the only songs that made a bit impact on you?

[Peter Koplik]

No, you said, were there any? And I said, here are three.

[Matt Koplik]

So let's talk about this time for a quick second. Act One. As we get towards the end of act one, Kimberly's.

[Peter Koplik]

It's actually evocative of the song in Cabaret.

[Matt Koplik]

Maybe this Time. Yeah, well, they share two words.

[Peter Koplik]

I won't say it's the same song with a different melody, but, I mean.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, actually, no, it's the same thing. There's literally the lyric in the song. This time. Maybe this time. Maybe this time. Maybe this time. As we get towards the end of Act 1, Kimberly's aunt Deborah has implied that she's got a scheme that she would like to get Kimberly's help on. Kimberly says no, and her parents both don't acknowledge her birthday. Her mom just flat out doesn't acknowledge it. I think it's too painful for her. Whereas her father fully just forgets. And I love how the song begins because they reference moments earlier in the show when her father says, do you remember what you said? How you hated me, wished I was dead? That my car would go off the road and it would explode? Well, I thought to myself, that can't be good for a daughter to say, I think that's so funny. And then her mom says, you told me about that story you read, and I was thrilled till you explained who Madea had killed. And I thought to myself, that can't be Good for a daughter to say. And so the song is sort of everyone's hope that after all the times they've been disappointed, this will be the moment where everything changes. And of course, it isn't for any of them.

[Peter Koplik]

One of the things that age and wisdom bring you is the realization that that's rare. Yeah, I don't want to say impossible. It's rare.

[Matt Koplik]

It's rare. Especially when there's been a pattern. Right. It's one thing if it's, you know, human error and the randomness of life makes things difficult sometimes. But when there's a pattern with certain people and certain relationships that just keep on coming back to the same problems, it's the definition of madness. Right. You do the same thing over and over again, hoping for a new result, and it never happens. And of course, that's exactly what happens with Kimberly and her parents at the end of Act 2, right before. Before I go. And this time always just makes me cry. Partly because it's the first moment in the show where Kimberly is actually joyful because everything seems like it could go well for her. I also cry with the show choir because they sing. It's Friday night in Bergen County. There are parties everywhere, and we finally got invited. I just makes me. I just, I don't know, it's just the joy of it makes me really happy. And I cry also knowing that it's not going to go how they all plan.

[Peter Koplik]

You got invited to a lot of parties of the kids that you were going to school with. You just weren't going to school in Bergen County?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I, I, well, no, first of all, I was being invited to Bergen county parties when I was going to school in Bergen county because it was the age where you invited everyone into your class or you got in trouble. And I think my child brain knew that, which is why I had anxiety about going to a lot of those parties. Because part of me knew that the person whose birthday it was didn't really want me there. I was invited out of obligation. There are people who invited me because they wanted me there. And I had better times at those parties.

[Peter Koplik]

With the benefit of hindsight, are you able, do you think, to determine accurately which party was which?

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

And you think you knew at the time accurately?

[Matt Koplik]

I don't think I knew that's what it was I was feeling. I don't think I could pinpoint that that's what the anxiety was. But do you. I have a distinct memory of going to a party. I think it was third grade and you were driving me, and it was at a 1. It was like the Taekwondo place in Tenafly. And I wouldn't get out of the car. I started having a panic attack. And I think inherently, I knew, even though I couldn't understand it at the time because I was young, I knew that the person whose party it was didn't really want me there. And I did not feel comfortable going.

[Peter Koplik]

Think of how much money I could have saved if I realized this stuff.

[Matt Koplik]

Think how much money we all could save if we started getting our children to therapy younger and being able to properly express their emotions, understand what was going on. Yeah, well, you know, knowledge is power, baby, both in terms of the world and your own goddamn psyche and emotions. Get into it, Hunty.

[Peter Koplik]

We are, after all, only people.

[Matt Koplik]

And people who need people are the luckiest people in the world. Don't agree with that lyric, but it is a famous one.

[Peter Koplik]

Bourgeois.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Sorry, Bob Merrill. You're trash.

[Peter Koplik]

Seem to work for them, though, financially speaking.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Announcer]

Maybe it's time to throw caution to them. Maybe it's time to throw caution to them. Do something we may regret, something we may. At least we'll be happy.

[Matt Koplik]

At least we'll be living.

[Announcer]

At least in that moment. We'll have a moment we'll never forget. And tomorrow we'll do the same. Or not.

[Peter Koplik]

I was listening to now and thinking about something your mother said over and over when you were growing up. And that has stayed with me, which is, you know, be here now. Don't just mail it in or pretend you're listening or go through the motions. If you're going to do it, do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, go in.

[Peter Koplik]

Be here now is good. I think that's very expressive. And as I said, she emphasized it. I'm not sure it was original with her. I think she had heard it. But she popularized it in our family, at least to me and to some extent, you. I don't know about your sister.

[Matt Koplik]

I mean, did Robin Williams really come up with Carpe diem in Dead Poet Society? Probably not, but it's what we associate it with. Mama's wise Mama was on the Torch Song trilogy episode. For anybody who wants to listen to that episode. No, it's. Well, so now also, it's about just enjoying the moment, if not necessarily living it to its fullest, of just like, as you said, being present.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, apropos of being moved by a song, are you supposed to be moved.

[Matt Koplik]

By how to watch a check 1000%? Because if they do it wrong, those kids are going to jail. And I. The stakes are very high.

[Peter Koplik]

It's a tutorial.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. It's one of the funny songs in the. In the show. I mean, I think all of Deborah's stuff played to perfection by Bonnie Milligan is hilarious. Better is one of my favorite comedy songs of the last few years. Better is Aunt Deborah's song to Kimberly to convince her to help her with her life of crime.

[Peter Koplik]

Make your effing life better.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, make your shitty life better. It has.

[Peter Koplik]

Might have been a bit better.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, no, because they. I will say this show in the score, anyway, uses curse words very effectively because first, the only people who really curse in the show are Kimberly's parents and aunt. And, you know, Kimberly's trying to get the parents to not curse more. They have a whole curse swear jar that they put coins into in the hopes that it'll be enough money to go to Disneyland.

[Peter Koplik]

I tried that with you and your sister.

[Matt Koplik]

Didn't work.

[Peter Koplik]

Didn't work.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Peter Koplik]

Although I think particularly didn't work with your sister.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, she works in finance, so if you don't have a shitty vocabulary, you're not taken seriously. We've all seen Wolf of Wall street or parts of it, and with Deborah with Better, it's mostly just the word shitty. She just says shitty a lot. She uses fuck once. And it is in perhaps my favorite lyric of the whole show after she has told Kimberly about the Greek man who was possibly gay, who needed a green card, so they got married and now he's dead. Supposedly the old woman who was legally blind and thought that she was her daughter and so gave her all of her precious jewelry. And Kimberly says, this is your advice? Take advantage of sick old ladies?

[Peter Koplik]

No, not just them.

[Matt Koplik]

Not just them. So good. And then starts off with, when life gives you lemons.

[Announcer]

When life gives you lemons. When life gives you lemons.

[Matt Koplik]

And now, Father, what is the normal motto for when life gives you lemons? What do we usually say?

[Peter Koplik]

You're supposed to say, make lemonade. However, she does not say that she's.

[Matt Koplik]

And they build up to it. They do it. They repeat it a couple times. They really build up to it. You gotta go out.

[Announcer]

You gotta go out and steal some apples. Cause who the.

[Matt Koplik]

That is. Because it. You're not entirely sure where it's gonna go. You think it's gonna go to lemonade. And then it takes that turn and it's the only time she says in the song. And it's used so well, I think.

[Peter Koplik]

Not just them is a better line.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, not just them is smarter but because we have the power of music, it is more effective.

[Peter Koplik]

Not just them though, is more predictable. That was. I mean, it's really logical.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. It's also the way that Bonnie Milligan says it because. And I, I was listening to her interview about this. So when the show was first done as a play In I think 2003, Alan Gasteyer actually played the Ant, that production of Manhattan Theatre Club. Manhattan Theatre Club loves David Lindsay Hebert. And she had played it much more as a butch lesbian, which is how the character is really written as. Although they kind. They don't really talk about her sexuality in the musical version, but she's much more of an overt butch lesbian in the play. And Anna played her a lot broader. And when Bonnie Milligan came in for her audition, she did a lot more dry and quieter, very sort of deadpan, which they ended up really loving. So when she says things like this is your. When Vicky says this is your advice to take advantage of sick old ladies on stage, Bonnie actually says it a lot quieter than she says on the cast album, where she's like, no, not just them. And it's so wonderful. It's the whole thing. It's, it's, it's things that you expect, but not how you expect it to be said. And that's part of the genius of the comedy of this show called acting. It's called acting, my dear boy. Look it up. I also really love, I mean, I think the opening number is lovely. I think this, this show has a wonderful I Want song. Now, the I Want song Father, is as Howard Ashman describes it when he told the animators at Disney, right before he birthed out the Disney Renaissance for them, he described the I Want song as when our leading lady, somewhere in the second or third song of the show, sits down on a tree stump and tells us what it is she wants out of life. It's not always that specific.

[Peter Koplik]

He, he, he was in this case legs.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, he was. He was mixing shows. He was mixing My Fair lady with Brigadoon. He was saying when Eliza Doolittle sits on a tree stump and tells us she wants a room somewhere turns into Ariel. Yes, that becomes yes, but Part of youf Old. Which is, if not the best I Want song. I might, I think it is. But if we can disagree on if it's the best, it's certainly the most iconic, the most world renowned. It is pretty iconic. But anyway, he says it's when our leading lady tells us what she wants. And the song in Kimberly Akimbo that is. The I want song is called Make a Wish, and it is Kimberly writing to the Make a Wish foundation of New Jersey. Because she is, technically speaking, dying. She is about to turn 16 years old with a disease that has a life expectancy of 16. And she asked and she has. She's allowed to put in three wishes. And the song is structured with her first attempt at filling out the form, which she immediately erases because she's trying a little too hard. She's trying to be endearing, and she's making jokes that just aren't funny. Haha, smiley face.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't want to cut you off.

[Matt Koplik]

No, cut me off.

[Peter Koplik]

The good news is she gets one of her wishes. The bad news is it's the wrong one.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the cheapest one, which she predicts. She says, you're like a genie. You grant. You ask for three wishes, but you only grant one of them. I guess I. I bet you pick whatever's cheapest. Haha, smiley face. Which she's right about.

[Peter Koplik]

They pick. She made the mistake of following their rules. Yeah, she should have just said given.

[Matt Koplik]

Them one or gone for broke with all three wishes. So when she. When she tries again, she does the ne. The song is then structured into three wishes. The first wish is I wanna be.

[Announcer]

A model for a day. A famous fashion muse in a black Dior cocktail dress and a pair of Jimmy Choos. I'll run from pop paparazzi and throw some diva fits. Then hurry to a photo shoot with Annie Lebowitz. Everyone will stare at me, but not in the usual way. They'll say that I am beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

So she wants them to treat her to an Annie Leibowitz photo shoot and get called beautiful. Her second wish is a fancy cruise on a yacht with some friends that she doesn't have at the time.

[Announcer]

Far from Jersey power alight Far from Newark day we'll go somewhere that's beautiful.

[Matt Koplik]

And then the third wish, she goes, okay, I gotta make this one count. And then she starts. She starts with a treehouse. And then she goes, no, no, no, I gotta think bigger. I gotta think bigger. Think they'll give me anything. And she just starts spitballing ideas. A pet monkey. She wants to hang glide. She wants to see the world. She wants to go to Sweden and China, New Zealand.

[Announcer]

How about a hyperbaric chamber? Or a bodyguard? Or stilt. I wanna walk on stilts. I wanna Bundy jump in Sweden. I wanna go to China and New Zealand and St. Louis. I wanna jet ski. I wanna run in A fish tank. We're all in a really big fish tank. I want a simple home cooked meal.

[Matt Koplik]

God, this is the part where I'm just like, oh, God, this song is so actable. Her parents don't cook.

[Peter Koplik]

Table for three?

[Matt Koplik]

Yep. Paper napkin. She just wants to live like a normal family for a day. And it's. My God, it's. Oh, I guess I get teary just thinking about it.

[Peter Koplik]

This.

[Matt Koplik]

Because it's not okay. Okay. I really hate being told what to feel when I watch something. We have talked about this. This is one of your pet peeves with Spielberg as a director, is that he often.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, first of all, no one can tell someone else how to feel. You feel what you feel.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

You can tell them what they think is wrong. You can tell them that what they feel, feel is in your opinion, not appropriate to the situation, but it's appropriate to them. How you feel is how you feel. And yeah, I don't like being told what to feel. I don't like being hit over the head. And I also don't like the over reliance on score in a movie to create an emotion. Yeah, that should be organic.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is one of your complaints about Spielberg, is that he does that a lot. There's a moment in the post with Meryl where she's given this big speech about the importance of news media. And it's just zooming in on her as she gives this speech as a West Wing trumpet starts to play and you're like, okay, Spielberg, enough.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, I'm an outlier on this. I think most people wouldn't agree with me. And his success and popularity. Speak to. He knows what he's doing and he knows what his audience wants.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. But have you met most people? Most people suck. No, I hear you. The thing about Spielberg, strike two.

[Peter Koplik]

You know how you start with a left jab to the jaw and then you come with a right cross to the gut?

[Matt Koplik]

Jesus Christ.

[Peter Koplik]

We started with the left jab. This was the right.

[Matt Koplik]

Bam, bam. I'm Muhammad Ali, baby.

[Peter Koplik]

No, maybe I just have a glass jaw.

[Matt Koplik]

The. We don't have to talk about Spielberg much longer. But like you watch something like ET Or Raiders of the Lost Ark where, you know, it's. He's doing similar things of not necessarily telling you how to feel, but having the exact right music for the moment where you're supposed to feel the thing, but it feels less manipulative. In his earlier movies post Saving Private Ryan, I feel like that's sort of the last movie where he stopped telling you how to feel in a moment. He sort of made it easy to feel certain things in certain moments. But like, once we got into the 2000s, it became much more like, here's the inspirational part, here are the tears part. And I don't love it, but some people do. Kimberly Akimbo. I bring this up because Kimberly Akimbo. I was reading a criticism someone had on a message board that will renew remain nameless. But y' all can guess what it is. And I'm sure you can go on the thread and find this person, this very stupid person who saw the show. And their two main criticisms were they hated the parents. They thought the parents were just so awful they should, you know, be euthanized. Essentially, I'm like, listen, they're not bad people. They're bad parents. They are fuck ups of people. Which is partly why they are bad parents. But that's. We've already kind of talked about that a bit. Their other complaint was, was that the show was trying to ask our sympathy for Kimberly when she. It was clear that the character didn't want it or something like that. To which I first say, the fuck does that even mean? You just put seven words together to create a sentence that makes no sense, sir. Second of all, I don't think the show is telling you to sympathize with Kimberly. The show is simply presenting Kimberly to you and a lot of her situation is. Does warrant sympathy. But the show is not putting a neon sign around Victoria Clarke saying, feel bad for this girl.

[Announcer]

Wish number three a tree house. Thank you for your consideration. Kimberly Lavaco, smiley face.

[Matt Koplik]

They make her smart, they make her independent. They. She never cries for herself. You know, she has a lot of bad shit in her life, but she also has some decent shit and she's also trying to make the most of it.

[Peter Koplik]

Yeah, the last thing you said is the point, I think, that you're supposed to come away from the show with.

[Matt Koplik]

Which is.

[Peter Koplik]

She'S busy living, not busy dying, trying to.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, her and her parents. She says to them, like, you've given up. You know, her dad has a dead end job at a gas station, which is not. There's no shame in that. But he has no motivation to do anything else. He's drinking his life away. Her mom is basically sitting on the couch waiting for the baby to arrive and living as an invalid. And her aunt is trying to find all the shortcuts so she can get money to go off and be happier somewhere else. Not that that'll ever happen for her. She's got To. She's got to actually, you know, work for that. Which I do love that it ends with her having an actual job digression.

[Peter Koplik]

You know where my line came from?

[Matt Koplik]

What?

[Peter Koplik]

Shawshank Redemption. Get busy living. You get busy dying.

[Matt Koplik]

I haven't seen the movie in a while. I mean, I've seen the movie. I've seen it twice, actually, but I haven't seen it in about 10 years. That movie is a great movie, and you don't realize how great it is until the last 25 minutes where it's playing a long, long game with you. It is, y'.

[Peter Koplik]

All.

[Matt Koplik]

It's good. Similar to Eternal Sunshine and Spotless Mind. You're watching it and you're thinking, this is pretty good. And then the last 20 minutes hit, and you're like, oh, this is what the whole thing's been setting up. Here we go. Domino effect.

[Peter Koplik]

A large carrot at the end of a long stick.

[Matt Koplik]

Just jizz. Just jizz. On that note, let's take one last break.

[Announcer]

I beg to differ with you.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you mean?

[Announcer]

You're the top.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Announcer]

You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge doll.

[Matt Koplik]

And we're back again. This show does not tell you what to think, and it presents very flawed people. Even the people who are there, who are the nicest in the show are flawed because no one realizes the microaggressions they're enacting towards Kimberly. With set with Seth and Kimberly's first sort of like, quote, unquote, meet cute before anagram. He. He says quite a few things that are rude to her, but he's young, and his brain isn't fully developed yet, so he doesn't realize half the shit he's saying to her is. Is rude. And in fact, they make a joke of it because after, like, the third rude thing he says accidentally, he then looks at her. He goes, oh, I'm sorry. Are you sensitive? And he doesn't say it like, you're gonna cry. He's like, oh, should I. Like, should I be a little more careful about what I'm saying? And we laugh because it breaks the tension.

[Peter Koplik]

I like the. The line in the Source. I've been a good kid.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

What's it gotten me?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. He's tried really hard.

[Peter Koplik]

I thought. That's very real.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. Ali Gordon doesn't love that song. She thinks it's twice as long as it should be. But I. I like the song as it is. So. Ali, sorry about it.

[Peter Koplik]

I'm only quoting one Line.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I know it's. Listen, I think probably is too long.

[Peter Koplik]

Good work, Ali.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. Thank you. Most things are. We could probably cut a verse if we're being really harsh about it. But I like it as it is, but I mean another moment in the show. I don't want to call it a microaggression because it's not really that. It's just these kids not understanding what the situation around them, which is. The four show choir kids, Seth and Kimberly are playing Uno right before class before they do their disease bit. And they're doing the reprise of Skater Planet. And they're all fantasizing about the lives they're gonna have when they get out of high school. I'm gonna get a job here. I'm gonna go to college at mit. I'm gonna get a job here. I'm gonna move to London. I'm never coming back to New Jersey. The one person who isn't singing is Kimberly. And when you watch the show, it's hard to tell on the cast album. When you watch the show, it's them all sitting around in a circle and Victoria Clark is looking out at the audience with this expression of realization that everything that they are fantasizing is not gonna happen for her. Just. Cause realistically she's not gonna have the time that they have. And they don't realize that that's what they're doing to her, but that's what they're doing to her.

[Peter Koplik]

They're about themselves. They're teenagers.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Again, it's not mean spirited. They just don't. They're in a joyful moment. They're excited about the future. And in a way it's nice that they don't think of Kimberly.

[Peter Koplik]

You don't want to take that away from them. But they don't have to rub her nose in it.

[Matt Koplik]

They don't realize that that's what they're doing.

[Peter Koplik]

Exactly.

[Matt Koplik]

Because they've now become.

[Peter Koplik]

Because they're teenagers.

[Matt Koplik]

And they're also now friends with Kimberly. Kimberly. And when you have a certain comfort and casualness of people, there's a part of your guard that you let down because you're no longer on alert about their boundaries. You're just sort of being yourself with them and there's. Yeah, they just aren't aware of.

[Peter Koplik]

Empathy is rarely a prominent quality in teenagers.

[Matt Koplik]

With a lot of people, I would argue if there's one thing that this show I think should teach audiences, which is a. Sure, it's a bitter note to think about, but it's Something that's very realistic and it's something that I written, I've written in my play is people can love you and still hurt you. Right? A family member, a friend. It happens. You hope that it's by accident. You hope sometimes it's not. With Kimberly Akimbo, I think what makes it not super mean is that nobody in the show is trying to hurt each other. Everyone just has their own stuff going on. And not everyone is as self aware as they should be. And I think when the show ends, everyone gets a little more self awareness and a little more growth and the window of opportunity for redemption for everyone just gets a little bit wider. No one is fixed at the end. Nobody has done a total 180. But there is a chance for everyone to get better. That's why sort of the Kimberly's parents, baby, Carmelita, that's the baby name that Kimberly has given her, is sort of a second chance for them to do better. And it's sad and hopeful in the same way because Kimberly has let go of her parents in a very cathartic way for her. So allowing them to sort of try again with this baby, it's the only.

[Peter Koplik]

Way she can live her life.

[Matt Koplik]

She's got a cut.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't want to say her dream, but she's trying to live her dream and she can't do that with her parents. No, she tried and she tried over and over. And to their credit, they tried too. They couldn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. So granted, I'm famously extraordinarily young and level headed and perfect. And I've never had any.

[Peter Koplik]

Perpetually young, yes. Forever young.

[Matt Koplik]

Never had any damage happen to me in any way. 2022 was pitch perfect for me. But the experiences that I have had and that I've. And the people that I have watched it is, I can't say, baffling to me because I watch it happen in these stories and stories like Kimberly Akimbo and I recognize it and I see it. I just get frustrated watching it happen over and over again for so many people. How many times people will hit themselves on the head with the hammer until they finally realize that they have to walk away. You know, whether that's a job, whether that's a partner, a family member, what have you. And the only thing that I've seen people regret when they do it is not doing it sooner. But you ask yourself how many times before it's enough. And Kimberly is the one who finally cuts the ties, not her parents.

[Peter Koplik]

People regret they didn't do it sooner. At the time they've concluded that it was the right thing to do, they didn't do it sooner because it was not clear to them.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure.

[Peter Koplik]

So sure. You know, you're second guessing your own judgment and your own experience at a time when you didn't necessarily have clarity.

[Matt Koplik]

It's a time when you're saying to yourself, maybe this time.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, I see it slightly differently. It's more the 8020 rule of human relations. Is there a human relation that's 100 to 0? I've seen some that are 0 to 100.

[Matt Koplik]

They make great stories.

[Peter Koplik]

And my parents, who had about as good a relationship, as good a marriage as I've ever seen. 98, 2, 95, 5 wasn't 100 0.

[Matt Koplik]

And that's just what you saw.

[Peter Koplik]

Might have been 9010. I don't think it was worse than 90 10, though.

[Matt Koplik]

Probably not. And I mean, I don't think we can really ask Grandma anymore because she views that entire time with rose colored glasses.

[Peter Koplik]

But that's one of the things that makes her her and makes her life.

[Matt Koplik]

And that she drinks. She drinks chardonnay like it's water. That also makes her her. Although she is drinking water more often now, thank God. Thanks, Sally.

[Peter Koplik]

Proceed.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, so your mother. Okay. I have tried to pitch this show to Grandma many times. I've tried to get her to see this many times. She has been steadfast about not seeing it. She hears the premise and she goes, absolutely not. That sounds so depressing. A teenage girl with this disease where she's aging four times fast. And I kept telling her, you don't understand. The show is actually very funny. It's actually surprisingly optimistic. And we will talk about the final number and how that works because, my God, is it a surprising sucker punch in a beautiful way.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't want to dwell on my mother. No, but she would like the show. But a lot of it, she wouldn't hear the words. And it moves a little fast for her to pick up on.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's. That's a conversation she and I can have if she does decide to see it. But when I was pitching this to her back in November, December, I said, you don't understand. The show was actually really good. And she liked Fun Home. Or so she says. She said she really loved Fun Home. But I said to her, you know, grandma, this show is gonna probably win best musical. And again, I'll go into more reasons why for that in the next week's episode. But she wouldn't, she just wouldn't budge she wanted to see dancing. And now that you've seen it and you have agreed with me that she would probably like the show, maybe she wouldn't hear all of it, but we can do our best to get her a good.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, the other thing is, you would have to explain what was going on throughout the show before she went so that when it happened, she would recognize it.

[Matt Koplik]

I would give her sort of a run, a basic rundown of the plot of Act 1, you know, by the.

[Peter Koplik]

Way, she's gonna listen to this podcast.

[Matt Koplik]

I hope so. She listened to your Follies episode.

[Peter Koplik]

She's dying to. She wanted to come today and watch from the cheap seats.

[Matt Koplik]

How do you think grandma's gonna feel about my language?

[Peter Koplik]

I think she'll adjust to that.

[Matt Koplik]

She's heard me say these things before. This. This is the same woman who, when we had dinner with her last week and she said, well, Matt, you know, I'm in very good shape, but I. I do get vertigo. And I said, well, babe, you are top heavy. This is the relationship I have with my grandma. Everybody. With everyone in my life. This is what I say. She loves it. We have. We have a running joke about the low cut blouses she wears.

[Peter Koplik]

You didn't call her pear shaped.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she's not pear shaped. She's got decolletage. I love my grandmother. She's an icon. She's 99, everybody. 99. And still going to see theater. She came to see the New York City Gay Men's Chorus performance.

[Peter Koplik]

She's the oldest person I know who goes to the theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And can still understand most of it.

[Peter Koplik]

Most of it.

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, most is not none. It's not even half, you know, what you would like about dancing. She doesn't have to pay attention to any of the words. And oh boy, are there words in that show. As I've said in my review for a show called Dancin, there's a fuck ton of talking. How would you, though, pitch this show to grandma to convince her to see it? Because I know she would like it.

[Peter Koplik]

I start with, it's funny and it's not sad. And it sort of has a happy ending. As happy and ending as this plot line can have.

[Matt Koplik]

Bittersweet, I would say, which is the anagram for Seth Weedus.

[Peter Koplik]

I would say there is uplift.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's Seth. Brett Weedis translates into the Bittersweets.

[Peter Koplik]

As Woody Allen once said of one of one of his pieces, we want to sell some tickets here.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, there's. That's. That's something I've talked about before on this podcast with shows, and this is.

[Peter Koplik]

Not Game of Thrones.

[Matt Koplik]

No. Well, ironically, although Game of Thrones has.

[Peter Koplik]

A lot more sex in it, also has a huge.

[Matt Koplik]

Also has a huge fan base, so there goes that.

[Peter Koplik]

That's how you sell tickets.

[Matt Koplik]

But I have said before on this podcast about a lot of writers in the theater who I think are very intelligent and very talented. A lot of them have a bit of a resentment towards having to perform their works for an audience. And you can tell sometimes when those pieces happen where it's an interesting concept. There's something. There's some meat in there, but it's almost like they hate the fact that we have paid to watch it because that by. Because then we are allowed to judge it and that's just sort of how art works. And unfortunately, there are a lot of stupid people out there who go online and share their opinions, but with something like Kimberly Akimbo, I don't think that David Lindsay Aberra and Janine Desori hate the audience. I think they like the audience and they want to engage with the audience.

[Peter Koplik]

I've never thought about this the way you just described it. I think I understand what you're saying. I don't think that the creator hates that somebody paid to hear it. They hate that they had to adapt their vision to suit an audience and make it work to an audience. Well, they want their vision, purely presented, to be appealing, not to mention lucrative.

[Matt Koplik]

Tell the listeners about your inner monologue. When you saw John Wood in Travesties back in the 70s, what the hell was that? Yeah, you watched it.

[Peter Koplik]

And the other thing I said is I'm a Fairly literate, what, 23 year old who's probably at the height of what has been increasingly deteriorating intellectual power. And I don't get what you're doing. Who did you write this for?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, who did you write Travesties for? Tom Stoppard. And then when you and I saw it together, when we saw your friend Richard do it at Sag harbor, you know, I got a lot more of it. Well, much later, between the two of us, you had seen the show once before, so you knew sort of what to expect. You knew a good deal about that era and I knew a lot about Oscar Wilde. And between the two of us, we had a good chunk of the data art movement in our pocket. And collectively, I think we understood about 60% of that play. That is saying something. And that's a majority, but it's not a vast majority. So you ask yourself, Tom Stoppard, you know, and it's not about censoring. It's not about trying to curb creativity. But you ask yourself, if you're creating something, you know, there are people who are going to be watching this. Do you want them to be befuddled, or do you want them to be invested? And Travesties is a play that. I mean, I think I know two people who like that play. Two. And honestly, I like those people that I consider them friends, but they. They're a bit of esoteric people.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't like to put myself in or try to put myself inside the mind of Tom Stoppard. Good luck. Way beyond my pay grade. I wonder. I mean, that seems to be a moment in his career when he wasn't making accommodations. He probably made accommodations later on with some of his other popular work. But his early stuff, I don't think he was.

[Matt Koplik]

Plus, it was the 70s, and cocaine is a hell of a drug.

[Peter Koplik]

Wasn't that popular in the early 70s.

[Matt Koplik]

This was late 70s. This was 77 travesties. I think it was 77. Maybe 76. Keep talking. Let me look this up. I'm pretty sure that's when it was. Cocaine was popular by the 77, was it not? I mean, it's what got Patti LuPone through all of Evita. And when was Evita 79.

[Peter Koplik]

Not something.

[Matt Koplik]

Something you're here to comment on?

[Peter Koplik]

Well, no, I was going to say it's not something about which I am sufficiently knowledgeable. The rise, fall, rise, fall, rise, fall in the popularity of various drugs. Mm.

[Matt Koplik]

So Travesties was premiered in England in 74 and premiered on Broadway in 76.

[Peter Koplik]

So later than I thought. Yeah, but I still had a few marbles left at that point.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. Coke was. Was prominent in the 70s by that point, Right?

[Peter Koplik]

Not among people I knew, but.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, we should have gotten you in the theater community more.

[Peter Koplik]

You weren't around then. Matt.

[Matt Koplik]

It's twill. It's twill.

[Peter Koplik]

And now, you know, all these years later, I'm still not immersed in the theater community.

[Matt Koplik]

Good for you. You get to enjoy the theater, and you don't get to see how the sausage gets made or meet any of the people, because some of them are lovely, but some of them are bonkers.

[Peter Koplik]

Is that supposed to make that community unique? What community isn't like that?

[Matt Koplik]

Most communities are like that, for sure.

[Peter Koplik]

I worked in the movie business. Emphasize business.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, let's go into entertainment, then.

[Peter Koplik]

And I once asked a friend of mine who had a very successful and powerful position at a movie company. Is it the craziness that makes them successful and rich or is it the money that makes them crazy? And he said that the thin line between success and failure creates an insecurity that makes them crazy. There's also the distinction between incredible wealth and power and very little success, both as a performer and as an executive, just creates an insecurity that gets a lot of.

[Matt Koplik]

A lot of people, people in theater aren't that rich or powerful. The reason I say theater is mostly just because I have the most first hand experience in this community. And I also don't want to generalize. We were literally just talking five hours ago about how sort of well rounded a person Victoria Clark is because of the career she has had. And that is true of a lot of people. There is a lot of people in theater who actually are fucking functional human beings. That's wonderful. It's not always the case. The thing is that the Broadway community definitely promotes itself as all inclusive, all understanding and progressive and all this stuff. And there's a lot of that mentality shown, but there's also just a lot of. A lot of cut wires, a lot of mis wiring with a lot of members. And part of this is because, and I've mentioned this before, to be a performer, to be a writer, to be a creative in some respect, there has to be a little bit of your brain that is broken.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, yeah, as you said, genius often requires some. Michigan.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. A little bit of madness. I mean, think about people like Mozart who burned so brightly and then crashed and burned. People like Brando or Orson Welles.

[Peter Koplik]

What's interesting, Virginia Wolf, Sylvia Plath, is, you know, the. There's the inspiration crazy continuum. And I see Elon Musk started really inspirational and genius and that's dropping and the crazy's increasing.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

And I wonder, you know, was it always like this? This isn't a guy I know. I only know what I observe of him, what he says in public, the things he does. But he seems to be pretty uncensored. And he may be a person that is in fact the way he appears to the world. In which case the crazy is way, way out of control.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that also comes from surrounding yourself with nothing but yes men.

[Peter Koplik]

For I wonder if being the richest to the fifth richest guy in the world, you know, has messed him up. But, you know, another subject about which we digress, that we've talked about before is I've certainly seen, and you probably have as well, people who are really, really good at one thing think they know Everything about everything. A generalization, but one that I have seen, you know, and I don't know that I've known that many people who are that good at anything, you know, some professional athletes, some people who are really successful in business or performers or creators. And writers, as insecure as writers often are, or at least as they are cliched to be, carry with them more humility.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, I think the writer might be.

[Peter Koplik]

Because they get beaten up so much.

[Matt Koplik]

The writer being the star is not very frequent. It happens. And we've seen it, you know, throughout the decades. We've like a Tennessee Williams or an Arthur Miller and then now with like an Aaron Sorkin or.

[Peter Koplik]

You know, the medium where the writer thrives is television.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, we are in a golden age of television, so.

[Peter Koplik]

And, and, and unlike movies where the director is God.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

Tv, the writer is God.

[Matt Koplik]

Absolutely. And theater, it's a bit more of a collaboration of director and writer, supposedly, if it is a good working situation. But I say this because, first of all, I want to also say there's a difference between mental health and the artistic madness that I'm referring to earlier. There are full on geniuses in the theatrical world that often are troubled and, and also have a lot of baggage.

[Peter Koplik]

I wonder if what I said about writers carrying humility with them applies to writers in television because some of the showrunners. Yeah, well, again, that was creation. Don't necessarily have the same reputation for humility.

[Matt Koplik]

It's the power thing. Give someone some power and who knows what's going to happen to them? It's why everyone's gotta get knocked down a peg once or twice just for, you know, their own ego. But I bring this up because again, with artists in general, and I don't. And I say this just as anyone who's trying to do anything on the creative spectrum, theater, film, tv, literature, what have you.

[Peter Koplik]

You are creative spectrum. That sounds like a redundancy.

[Matt Koplik]

But especially with a show, you are trying to capture a human experience eight times a week for a specific amount of time with a very specific structure that requires a little bit of being a sociopath. Just, just a skosh, just a touch, just a. Just a tablespoon. And there's really no. In order to really go for broke. And as my mother said, if you're gonna do the thing, do the thing.

[Peter Koplik]

If you're really gonna try here now.

[Matt Koplik]

If you're gonna make the thing as good as you can, not just what's most marketable, not just what flatters your ego, surrounding yourself with yes. Men. Really trying to make something special that can last beyond that moment last beyond you. It requires a bit of bravery, a little bit of messiness, and a little bit of honesty. And that's really hard to do just in life in general. And then to do it so publicly, where it's not just your talent, but it's also your perspective and your hard work that's on display for everyone to judge. You know, you have to kind of be vulnerable if you want it to succeed in any way, shape, or form. And we've gotten so far off the topic, it doesn't matter anymore. But that is something that I think that Kimberly actually does really well is. It is a funny musical, and it is a bittersweet musical.

[Peter Koplik]

In answer to the point about how I would.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

Recommend it to my mother.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

Who is 99. And there are all kinds of entertainments that I wouldn't recommend to her that she wouldn't want to sit through.

[Matt Koplik]

No.

[Peter Koplik]

But she could actually enjoy and sit through this because it has the human elements that you described, but not. Doesn't leave you wanting to slit your wrists when you walk out of the theater.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Because it's not hateful. The show is not hateful. The show, as I said, the show is about a lot of really broken people trying to do better and. And a lot of them unable to for a very long period of time. I also have said many stories are about characters making the wrong decision up until the last 20 minutes, and then they make a good decision and things start to change for the better.

[Peter Koplik]

And there's Aunt Deborah.

[Matt Koplik]

And there's Aunt Deborah, who finally gets a job at Costco. Spoiler alert.

[Peter Koplik]

I understand it pays well.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. I also, there's when she tells Seth right before the heist, when Seth's worrying about Kimberly and all this stuff. And Deborah says, you have to stop worrying about other people. You have to start focusing on you. And it's Bonnie Milligan. So she's saying, like, in a very sweet tone. And then she just looks at Seth and she goes, what's wrong? He goes, nothing's wrong. I just realized you're kind of an awful person.

[Peter Koplik]

I didn't know Bonnie Milligan until I saw this. She's terrific.

[Matt Koplik]

She's great. Bonnie Milligan. And we'll talk about this in the Tony episode. Bonnie Milligan has been around for a bit. She was on the national tour of Kinky Boots with my friend Lauren, and she made her Broadway debut four years ago in Head Over Heels, which was the jukebox musical With Go Go. The Go Go's music didn't last very long, but she made the biggest impression in that show. And even then, everyone's like, oh, she'll get Tony nominated. But I knew. I knew it wasn't gonna happen. But with this show, she's absolutely going to. But again, that's for next week. The thing about Deborah is, like, yes, Deborah is a bad person. But even as a bad person, we see that she genuinely cares for Kim. She's. We. She's actually a welcome presence on stage when she shows up, because she's the first person who's just wholeheartedly nice to Kimberly, who understands what it is to talk to Kimberly. She doesn't say anything rude about her physical appearance, about her age or anything like that. She's just nice to her, which then is actually really clever when it's revealed very slowly just how awful she is as a human being.

[Peter Koplik]

I might have to see this again just to see what you just saw, because I didn't see her being nice to Kimberly. I saw her, A, she's funny, and B, she's using Kimberly, who she is.

[Matt Koplik]

But she's using everybody.

[Peter Koplik]

But she's not nice, and she doesn't care about anybody.

[Matt Koplik]

I think she kept. No, I think she cares about Kimberly.

[Peter Koplik]

Okay?

[Matt Koplik]

She's the one who first mentions that it's Kimberly's birthday when you and she. And she. She's the first one who mentions that it's Kimberly's birthday, or at least is trying to. When she's pulling out the mailbox and bringing it down to the basement. And Kimberly goes to bed, she says to Patty, like, it's midnight.

[Peter Koplik]

You know, when you meet Bonnie Milligan, ask her if you're right or if I'm right.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay. I mean, there's also a.

[Peter Koplik]

Chances are you might run across her.

[Matt Koplik]

There's also what Bonnie thinks. There's what David Lyber thinks. I think that she does care about Kimberly. That doesn't negate the fact that Deborah is out for number one, which is Deborah. When the chips are down, if the popo shows up, Deborah's on the lam. She's not defending Kimberly. But at the moment, the popo's not there. She doesn't have to go to the slammer. So she cares about her. She's definitely the person she cares about the most in the show outside of Deborah. I think that's absolutely true. But also, caring about someone means not just caring about them when it's convenient.

[Peter Koplik]

We're kind of splitting hairs. I don't think she cares about anybody but her. But I don't know her personally. She's never been mean to me.

[Matt Koplik]

You. You think that there's. The entire time she's working, Kimberly, Even when she's asking her about how school went, how the. She's the only one who asks her about how the school presentation went, about the disease. I think it's the little moments like that that show you that there is genuine affection for her.

[Peter Koplik]

Even if I think it's the little moments like that that shows that she knows what she's doing and knows how to do it.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, on this side of the room, we have a half empty glass, and on the other side of the room, we have a half full glass.

[Peter Koplik]

I should reverse talk about Story of Our Lives.

[Matt Koplik]

Story of Our Lives. That's another tesoroi musical. Okay, I'm gonna grant us one more song to talk about, which is the finale. We could. Well, actually, no. We could talk about the turn, which is the dinner scene. Then we take the turn. Also, I got to say, in true Janine Tesori fashion, this score has multiple genres working. We've got 70s funk. We've got 1990s pop and indie. We've got.

[Peter Koplik]

She's a Genius.

[Matt Koplik]

Janine Dosori.

[Peter Koplik]

Yeah, yeah. She is a true genius.

[Matt Koplik]

She is the greatest.

[Peter Koplik]

That is a word I do not throw around.

[Matt Koplik]

No, she is the greatest living musical theater composer we have right now. When you compare the scores of Caroline or Change to Fun Home, to Violet, to Shrek to Thoroughly Modern Millie, to this, it is. It is absolutely bonkers that they all come from one person. And that person is Ginny Tesori. The woman is just on another level. She creates these amazing compositions that are musically fulfilling and also. So I can't stress this enough, guys. Her music is so actable. It is so actable. There's a drive to it. I'm like, every time I listen to a song, Kimberly Campbell, I'm like, God, let me get both hands on this. If I got to do, like, a Broadway backwards or a Miscast where they do the gender reversals, I would. I would do my darndest to do Make a Wish. I will never do it as well as Vicky, but I'll do my darndest. The turn is just where we reveal why the family had to leave Lodi to their new town. Because Patty wanted another baby but was afraid of it getting Kimberly's disease again. So she had sex with her next door neighbor, Mr. Swicky, who was older. And when Buddy found out he Hired Deborah to beat up Mr. Swicky. But unfortunately, Deborah was wearing a pig mask and Mr. Swicky was old with a heart problem. So what happened?

[Peter Koplik]

Flopkin.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, he died. He died. Which I never.

[Peter Koplik]

It took me a face first into the oatmeal.

[Matt Koplik]

It took me a while to realize that they actually foreshadow that reveal in the. The Act 1 finale. This time when they're saying, like, this time my voice won't crack. This time we take the prize and Debbie and Deborah goes, this time nobody dies. Not like the other time. The first time I saw it. And then even like the second time on Broadway, I saw it in my head. I just thought it was like a very funny dark joke where it's like, oh, what happened? What happened the other time? Deborah.

[Peter Koplik]

It's a generic bad outcome.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Like, oh, the last time Deborah did a skill, somebody died. Whoops. But no, the last time Deborah did something with the family, Swicky died. That was the other time.

[Peter Koplik]

Bad luck.

[Matt Koplik]

Bad luck. But yes. And that's why the family had to leave Lodi and why Deborah had to hide in the woods for a while where she. Where she gets Kimberly a big ass pine cone for her birthday.

[Peter Koplik]

She's a giver.

[Matt Koplik]

She's a giver. Yeah. But. So the last song I want to talk about is the finale Great Adventure, which has double meaning because we begin the song with Kimberly and Seth on the lam. They take Deborah's cut of the money from the scheme that they've pulled as well as Kimberly's cut of the money, and they decide that they're going to drive down the east Coast. They're gonna go to Six Flags Great Adventure. They're gonna go to Colonial Williamsburg. They're gonna go to Disney World.

[Peter Koplik]

Did we ever impose Great Adventure on you?

[Matt Koplik]

I went, but not with you. I went on for a birthday party. It was fine.

[Peter Koplik]

Colonial Williamsburg was fun.

[Matt Koplik]

That was fun.

[Peter Koplik]

And it was the site of one of Laura's best witticisms, which was when the squirrel fell out of the tree and splatted right in front of us, she went, ooh, that's gotta hurt.

[Matt Koplik]

How old was Laura at the time?

[Peter Koplik]

10, 12, something like that.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, that's clever for 12, I'll give her that. Her best line, and honestly, her rudest one was when we were going to Disney World. And this is on brand for Kimberly Akimbo. When you're in Florida and you get closer and closer to Disney World, the exit signs for Disney World start having Mickey ears on them. And in my.

[Peter Koplik]

I'M not sure they still do. But they did then.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, I think they still do.

[Peter Koplik]

You would know. You're.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, I've been there more recently than you have. Although the last time I went was. No, it was about a year ago. Last time I went anyway. But I'm three, I think I know seven words. One of them is Mickey.

[Peter Koplik]

Three and a half.

[Matt Koplik]

Three and a half. I know seven words. Two of them are look and Mickey. So every time you there would be a Mickey ear silhouette, I would just shout, Look, Mickey. Ten minutes later, look Mickey. And my sister, who is six, turns to me so over it by like the 12th look of Mickey, she just turns to me so over it with.

[Peter Koplik]

All the world weariness that a six.

[Matt Koplik]

Year old can muster and she says, matt, this is Disney World. There are gonna be a lot of Mickeys basically to shut me up. And my childhood wonderment, it was brilliant. And it was at that moment, ladies and gentlemen, that Matt Koplik soul died forever. He found no joy in the world ever again.

[Peter Koplik]

It didn't die. It went comatose and reawakened.

[Matt Koplik]

Years later it went into a slumber. But yeah, that's. Oh God, I love my sister.

[Peter Koplik]

A medically induced coma, yes.

[Matt Koplik]

So Seth and Kimberly are going, they're at Great Adventure finally. And then they get to go on a great adventure. And this is where the show surprises you because I remember when. Oh actually, fuck. I also kind of want to talk about the, our disease presentation because they do the disease and each kid does their disease. They do fasciolosis, they do scurvy. Calm down, we're almost done.

[Peter Koplik]

I was thinking how brilliantly Virginia did, Victoria did that song.

[Matt Koplik]

Oh, absolutely. When they do and they get to her disease. Our disease is my disease. And it's so uncomfortable because she's trying to make light of it. Seth's trying to be scientific. But Kimberly is realizing from the looks on the kids faces in the class how real this is. It's in front of them.

[Peter Koplik]

She's freaking them out. And she's lived with it and she's doing a great job of putting all of this together.

[Matt Koplik]

And she's, and she's trying to be light about it to not make people. People uncomfortable. But that's also what she's been doing her whole life.

[Peter Koplik]

Talk about Mission Impossible.

[Matt Koplik]

And, and she breaks, she breaks in the middle of this presentation and starts in her mind singing about the stupidity of adolescence because she's had to grow so much mentally because of her condition and because of who her parents are and she's singing about. Who gives a. About the stuff that you have as children. Like, okay, you get a Z. You're worried about who's sleeping with who because the show choir kids are all in love with each other. But it's all the wrong sexualities. One, the. The gay girl.

[Peter Koplik]

Wrong is such a value laden term. Can we not say not the traditional roles?

[Matt Koplik]

No, they are. No, they are in love with the wrong person. The queer girl is in love with the straight girl who's in love with the gay boy, who's in love with the straight boy who's in love with the gay girl. So. And it's. And luck. The one good thing Deborah does, and she doesn't do it out of the goodness of her heart. She does it. They still. So they stop waffling on the scheme. But she says, let's cut the crap. Straight, gay, straight gay.

[Peter Koplik]

She needs to make it work.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. She goes, someone correct me if I'm wrong, please. Great. I just. I solved two years of heartbreak for you.

[Peter Koplik]

Anyway, to paraphrase Mo Green in Godfather, you're here to do business. Let's talk business.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. So Kimberly sings about how her, you know, everyone's looking at her because of her condition. And she goes, well, what about your condition? Your condition is concerned about a science grade and acne and all this stuff. And she goes, sure. That is your condition. She goes, and your cure is getting older. And my condition is getting older. Sorry. Getting older is my affection.

[Peter Koplik]

Yeah. My disease is getting older. Your cure is getting older.

[Matt Koplik]

The lyric is exactly.

[Announcer]

Your disease is a tough one, that's for sure. Getting old, older is my affliction. Getting older is your cure. Getting older is your cure.

[Matt Koplik]

And the night we saw it, the audience had the same response that they had at the Atlantic, which I'll never forget at the Atlantic Theater with Jane Kaczmarek right in front of me. Seven time Emmy nominee Jane Kazmark. When Vicki sang Getting older is my affliction. Getting older is your cure. 200 people collectively just went, ah, because it's a great line. It's so true. And like we've been living with this story at that point for so long that it was. It just fucking hit you in the gut. It's one of the, it's one of the few moments I've had in the theater where the whole audience had the same response. There's another one in a strange loop, which, if you've seen it, and we'll get to that episode down the line when Usher does his gospel Play for his mom. And it's, you know what it is. And he says to her, you wanted a gospel play. This is the only way I know how to write it. At Playwrights Horizons, 200 white people at a Sunday matinee just collectively went, ugh. Because they all got it. We were all on the same page. It was beautiful. But yes, she has her breakdown and all that stuff, but. And she. And for the first time she sort of freaks out and acknowledges the life expectancy. She goes, few people with my disease live longer than 16 years and I just turned 16, so happy birthday. It's devastating. But now her mind frame is back to, if I have the time I have, I'm going to make the most of it. And she and Seth are now on the lam. They're at Great Adventure and they're about to have their great adventure. And for so long in the show, you know that, that Kimberly is going to die, as we all are eventually, but sooner for her, we just don't know when. And the show kind of hints that it could happen before the curtain comes down. You don't know for sure, but so for it to end with her getting her dream, getting to see the world, also her father singing to her, see the world. My God, does that just kill me? See the world. See the world. And then the screen shows all the places that she and Seth go to with the camcorder that they have. And everyone's just singing in this quiet, lovely way with the ukulele. And you see her parents have the baby and she sent them a postcard. So you're watching them have their do over, but they're still in contact with her. And Deborah's now got a job. Everyone's getting an opportunity.

[Peter Koplik]

The show ends with her joy.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, well, the show ends with she.

[Peter Koplik]

Has the capacity for joy and that.

[Matt Koplik]

Everyone in her life that she's left, that she's moved on from is taking to heart what she says to them before she leaves, which is, you don't get a second time around, so make the most of it. Just cuz you up yesterday doesn't mean.

[Peter Koplik]

Nobody gets a second time around.

[Matt Koplik]

Isn't that a song no one gets? Well, the lyric in the show is no one gets a second time around. I don't know if there's another song that the same lyric is there.

[Peter Koplik]

That's the lyric. Yeah, I think you've got the lyric right.

[Matt Koplik]

I did. Well, I've been listening to it non stop since the album came out.

[Peter Koplik]

When you've seen it four times you shouldn't need to.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm sorry. This is my joy. And also, what else am I going to see multiple times this season? I haven't liked anything else as much. I know you and grandma like some like and hot. That wasn't for me so much.

[Peter Koplik]

Grandma liked it more than I did, but I thought it was good.

[Matt Koplik]

I liked it more than Nanny.

[Peter Koplik]

I'm looking forward to Camelot.

[Matt Koplik]

Sure. What a nap that'll be.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, if you nap through that, you'll miss a lot of beautiful music.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm not gonna nap through that. I haven't slept at a Broadway show ever. But I'm just saying she long.

[Peter Koplik]

I can't and she wordy.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, no, you have slept well.

[Peter Koplik]

We don't know what this. What this book is going to be like. We have a new writer for it, don't we?

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. Aaron Sorkin, who is so minimalist with his dialogue.

[Peter Koplik]

He's not known for sparing words.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. He's not. A picture is worth a thousand words. He's like, I think a thousand words is worth a picture.

[Peter Koplik]

Well, hopefully he realizes the songs he's interrupting and the songs he's interrupting are not doing a great job of telling a story. They're just brilliant songs.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And so I thought cast recording is great. I don't need to necessarily watch the 1960 production that goes along with it, but here we are. Kimberly Akimbo is a much shorter show than Camelot. They understood. They understood the assignment. The finale of Kimberly, I think, is also what makes it so special and also why I think some people walk away, quote, unquote, underwhelmed, because they go in expecting the gut punch of Fun Home, which is just these, like, big, dark, dark, but very cathartic emotions. Whereas Kimberly Akimbo doesn't go to as dark a place, but it goes to just as a cathartic place. It just does it quietly, which I think is so sweet.

[Peter Koplik]

Yes. I think it does a great job of saying what it wants to say and not hitting you over the head with it. And as you said, so much of the audience is expecting to get devastated at the end, a la Leopoldstadt.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

And you don't. And it's a pretty. Pretty skillful, difficult trick. They turn.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

It's not easy to have a show that centers on this end successfully and not have it feel saccharine.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. And. And to resist the urge to go out on a musical bang, which a lot of shows feel the need to do. You know, most a good number, surprisingly, there are quite A few Genita story shows that don't end on a big bang.

[Peter Koplik]

You know, she didn't write Mame or hello Dolly. That's not her genre.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that's. First of all, let's not pigeonhole Ms. Tesori that way. Tesori could write any goddamn genre she wants to. She is that good. Millie is the closest she's ever gotten to that genre, which you're not really familiar with Millie, but it's, you know, only.

[Peter Koplik]

It's Stage door.

[Matt Koplik]

Sorry about that.

[Peter Koplik]

That was it.

[Matt Koplik]

It's, you know, it's Le Jazz hot. It's that it's very bright, bubbly, and she does it very well. If you were to say Janine, Baby doll, before Jerry Herman died, he always wanted one more song for Mame, but he died before we could do it. Would you do us the honor? She would do it.

[Peter Koplik]

And I'm telling you, I didn't say she couldn't. I did. I just said she doesn't.

[Matt Koplik]

Not for this one, anyway. It's. She fits. She writes for what?

[Peter Koplik]

To the extent that I am familiar with her book.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Well, this is what I'm here for. I'm here to. I'm here to play you more. She, this Violet and Fun Home have finales that start quietly build to a rather large sound, but then don't end on that large sound. They end on a very quiet, comforting and fitting end.

[Peter Koplik]

The largest sounds in this show is the opening number.

[Matt Koplik]

Yep.

[Peter Koplik]

I love that opening number, which is a very clever way to get into this content and material because the audience is probably sitting down, apprehensive, and right out of the bat, you get. What's the name number called?

[Matt Koplik]

Skater Planet. Yeah, well. And it's. So it works.

[Peter Koplik]

And as I said, it gets everyone engaged and it gets them in the mood to be receptive because they're happy after that song.

[Matt Koplik]

It's also the. There's. When you listen to the song Skater Planet and the way it's done on stage as well, they. It does the same thing twice, but in a very clever way, because there's the visual and then there's the music. First of all, I think musically speaking, the first instrument we hear is a ukulele, which is also the instrument we hear at the beginning of Great Adventure. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not as well versed.

[Peter Koplik]

Is that a ukulele or a banjo?

[Matt Koplik]

Or maybe it's a banjo. It's definitely a ukulele.

[Peter Koplik]

I think it's.

[Matt Koplik]

I thought it's definitely A ukulele for a great adventure. That much I know. Or, God, I hope I know.

[Peter Koplik]

Maybe as your grandmother was sitting next to me as I was listening to the score, she liked that song.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's good. But, you know, it starts with that, like, little. Little strumming. And then it builds into the. And when the show opens, the curtain comes up on Victoria Clarke in a pool of light with her entrance applause, which that bitch has earned. And then the first thing she does is she starts eating her candy necklace, which gets a nice visual laugh, because it's a. It's the dichotomy of the visual of this woman, this older woman, eating a candy necklace. Because, you know, that's sort of. Visually, we're getting Kimberly from there. And then musically, he does the same thing where we get the night. Nice light strumming into the big, bolstered 90s pop teen music, which takes you a little bit by surprise. And then all the gorgeous harmony and vocal arrangements. It's just so good. And also, it has a lot of humor to it. It has one of my favorite lyrics, how they all talk about how they are misfits in some way. We're too weird in every way. And then Seth sings. I think Springsteen's just okay. And then they go. Which is not a thing to think in New Jersey. Always gets a laugh.

[Peter Koplik]

Probably best that I don't live there anymore.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes, we lived in Tenafly, which they unfortunately don't name.

[Peter Koplik]

And Franklin Lakes.

[Matt Koplik]

And Franklin Lakes. They don't name either town in the show, but they mention Bergen county quite a lot. They say Lodi. They say Paramus. I think in the play, they don't. They don't say what town they move to in the musical. In the play, they move to Pagoda, which is in Bergen County.

[Peter Koplik]

I believe so.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. West Orange is not Bergen county, but they do.

[Peter Koplik]

West Orange is the competition.

[Matt Koplik]

Yes. The show choir's competition. No, we are better than West Orange. There's another one that they. They. I know they mentioned Paramus. I think they mentioned Hackensack, maybe. Pagoda is also mentioned when they talk about how the. The show choir director apparently tells them when they can't order a costume specially made. He goes, well, you'll just do red T shirts and. And jeans.

[Peter Koplik]

Where do they live?

[Matt Koplik]

They don't say the town in the musical. In the play, it's Pagoda, but I don't. They don't say what town in the musical. Let's say it's Englewood. I'm gonna say Englewood just for my Own shits and giggles. It's not Englewood, but I'm gonna say it is. Okay, why not? Why not? Or we can say it's Hoboken. Why not? It can be not.

[Peter Koplik]

Bergen county isn't Hoboken.

[Matt Koplik]

Bergen County.

[Peter Koplik]

I believe Hoboken is Hudson County. But I could. I know it's not Bergen.

[Matt Koplik]

Gross.

[Peter Koplik]

I think it's Hudson. I could be wrong.

[Matt Koplik]

There's Bergenfield. Closer. Maybe closer. Let's say it's closer. It's not closer. It's not Alpine.

[Peter Koplik]

Definitely not Alpine.

[Matt Koplik]

Definitely not Alpine. Does Alpine even have a school? I think it's all just mansions.

[Peter Koplik]

I think it has an elementary school.

[Matt Koplik]

Okay, okay. It could be Bergenfield. That wouldn't be a bad one. Wherever there was a skating rink back in the 90s. Let's just think about it that way. How about that? Because it's got to be a skating rink, and it's got to be far enough from Lodi.

[Peter Koplik]

It's kind of humiliating to think that you were exiled from Lodi.

[Matt Koplik]

They weren't necessarily exiled. They're on the lamb from Lodi.

[Peter Koplik]

Luddi always seemed like the kind of place you lammed to not land from.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, that tells you the kind of family that Kimberly is in.

[Peter Koplik]

You're making my point for me.

[Matt Koplik]

Exactly. Exactly. Any other songs you want to point out or perform?

[Peter Koplik]

No. I thought through, though. You asked me what moved me, and those were the three. There are other good songs. Entertaining songs, sure, but they're not emotional to me.

[Matt Koplik]

No, I mean, I think Anagram is just such a sweet song. That's Kimberly's I like you song to set. It's. And I also like the lyric I wonder because it's all about, I like your perspective. I like how you see the world. And she goes, I wonder what you see when you look at me. I also just think that the book of this show is so good and so delightful that I'm. I have no notes on the cast album. The cast album is perfect. I. I gave it five stars for the website I write for. But I also just want people to experience some of that scene work because after the song in the car with Buddy where he tells Seth, you're not getting in her pants, and, you know, he's like, you don't kiss my daughter or whatever. And late the next scene when they're in the hallway after, you know, Kimberly's told her father she hates him and wishes he died. Seth says her very sweetly. He's like, you know, I'd kiss you if you Want, like, as a friend. Not, you know. He's like, I didn't think about it before, but then your dad mentioned it. I went, huh? The way he says it, he goes, but then your dad mentioned it. And I went, huh.

[Peter Koplik]

Tell me, Kimberly, is it an option?

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, so, you know, don't.

[Peter Koplik]

Have to answer off the top of your head.

[Matt Koplik]

He says, you don't have to say it right now. He's like, but if you want to let me know. And she goes, okay. And he goes, okay, right now, or can you let me know? She's like, no, I'll let you know. We're in the home. It's so good. And Vicky, he's so good at it. Oh, God. Everyone just see this show. It's delightful, and I'm telling you now, it's gonna win the Tony. And Juliet, who's she? Anywho? Papa Last words on Kimberly Akimbo. If you were to. Not just your mother, but if you were to tell someone to see the show. How. Why. Why would. Why should they see it? Beyond the fact that it's good and.

[Peter Koplik]

We said so, it's touching, it's musically brilliant, and it's a great example of telling a story with songs which is difficult to do, often tried, rarely succeeds. It's good enough and rare enough to make it worth going out of your way. As you know, I wasn't anxious to see this, and I'm really glad that I did. Although I won't see it four times, much less five. I'm really glad I saw it once and this production is performed beautifully.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah, it's a great cast.

[Peter Koplik]

Hopefully, if it gets produced other places they'll find talent. They might not find talent like Victoria Clarke, but there's a lot of talent out there.

[Matt Koplik]

I'm always in search of the next Victoria Clark.

[Peter Koplik]

Do you see this as something schools will do that's.

[Matt Koplik]

It's hard because you do the part of Kimberly has to physically be older. Although, I guess, you know, you could do stage makeup or whatever. I don't know. Schools are getting weirder now about what they allow their students to perform. I will say this is absolutely something that stage door will do. I can tell you that much. Stage door will be all over this show.

[Peter Koplik]

Okay. I mean, if stage call you in to direct it.

[Matt Koplik]

Happily, now that I'm a director again. Here we go.

[Peter Koplik]

But not again. Still.

[Matt Koplik]

Still. Well, no, like my childhood wonderment, it was in a coma for a while, hadn't been used since junior year.

[Peter Koplik]

Medically induced yes.

[Matt Koplik]

Was not activated since junior year of college, but we got some comments.

[Peter Koplik]

Did that answer your question?

[Matt Koplik]

It did. No. You did a great job, Kim. You're doing great, sweetie. The last thing I guess I'll just.

[Peter Koplik]

Say, tell the audience that I'm batting my eyelids.

[Matt Koplik]

He's batting his eyelashes every bad day. The last thing I will say is I have. I'm. I've got a high bar in terms of what I consider quality in a show. And that doesn't mean I only like the highbrow stuff. It just means whatever you're gonna do, as my mother says about life, do it. Go in, be the best version of that show you want to be. If you're gonna be shucked, be fucking shucked, baby. If you're gonna be Kimberly Akimbo, be Kimberly Akimbo. I have no time for the. The middle ground, middle of the road. And I do think that fandom of musical theater and Broadway in particular these days is a little sort of, everyone gets a trophy. Oh, I. You know, shouldn't we just love everything that comes out? To which I say no, because how is anyone supposed to do any good work if everything is just gonna, you know, if we're just gonna support everything. If there's nothing wrong with not liking something, Kimberly Akimbo, I can objectively tell you, is a well crafted show. You may not like it, you be wrong, and tells me about your taste level, but it's objectively well done, it's fantastically acted. It's got Victoria Clarke, who I am sorry, children, you need to watch and learn from.

[Peter Koplik]

I want to compliment you, Matthew. You've become more. Less judgmental and harsh in your old age. Because the last time you said something like that, you said, if you don't like it, you're somebody I don't ever want to know.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah.

[Peter Koplik]

You didn't say that about Kimberly Akimbo.

[Matt Koplik]

No, there's no. I forget what show I said that about this.

[Peter Koplik]

You just said it says something about your taste. But you didn't say you're somebody I never want to know.

[Matt Koplik]

No. What was the show that I said that about? Because I remember saying that I think it was. Maybe it was. I don't know, maybe it was the 94 carousel. There are certain. There are like three things where it's like, if you don't like this, I don't want to know you, because this is just so objectively fantastic. And that if you can't recognize this, why should I want to know you? That said, this is not a Show where I feel that way.

[Peter Koplik]

You've mellowed.

[Matt Koplik]

Anyway, Papa, this has been a blast. Thank you for doing this.

[Peter Koplik]

I enjoyed it. I'm glad you asked.

[Matt Koplik]

I know you don't want people to find you, but on the off chance that people want to let you know how much they enjoyed your time on this podcast, is there any place where they can reach you through you? Through me? I am the liaison. They can't just randomly Facebook friend you.

[Peter Koplik]

Why?

[Matt Koplik]

He doesn't post anything.

[Peter Koplik]

I don't post on Facebook. You know, you'll see, he'll like your stuff. A nice picture of me because I have a picture. But occasionally I like. Even more rarely, I will comment. Yeah, but sort of the people who need to know about me do without me putting it out there in the metaverse.

[Matt Koplik]

Next time you're here. You're seeing Camelot.

[Peter Koplik]

I could do that right now, based on what the 1960 version was. I cannot imagine anybody doing better than Richard Burton.

[Matt Koplik]

Well, let's not put the bar there, because Burton was Burton. But I will say my tall drink of talent, Andrew Burnap, is playing Arthur in this production and I look forward.

[Peter Koplik]

To seeing can he bring pathos to it.

[Matt Koplik]

He can bring anything. I. Well, I don't want to over sell him. I just thought he was so fantastic in the inheritance. Plus I find him quite attractive. So I'm looking forward to his Arthur. When they announced him in Camelot, I went, oh, they're going for a Camelot that. Because this is not a sexless Arthur. Father. Don't even act like that's the worst thing I've ever said to you today, let alone in my entire life.

[Peter Koplik]

That's the worst thing you said to me in the last 20 minutes.

[Matt Koplik]

Welcome to your life with me as your son. You're so very welcome. I keep you young, baby.

[Peter Koplik]

That's true. You. You keep me in touch with a certain portion of the Zeitgeist with which I would be out of touch.

[Matt Koplik]

Yeah. You're Zeit. I'm Geist. Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for listening. If you like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating. Give us a little review. I haven't had a review to read in a while. I'm missing it. Let's do another one. Join us next week when we start our Tony Prediction series, as we put this, the big move on pause for just a little bit because I learned from Oscar season, it's really fun to start mapping this shit out. It's really cool and there's no real rhyme or reason, but you can try.

[Peter Koplik]

You know, what the hell?

[Matt Koplik]

Listen, if Scott can make all the bets on sports where there really is no rhyme or reason, I can start having people make bets on awards for theater where there's a little bit more. Until then, yeah, just have a great rest of your week. We're not gonna do Six Degrees of Sally Murphy, nor are we gonna do who Lives, who Dies? Jeanine Tesori, because this is a Ginny Desori musical. We have our Six degrees of separation from her already and Sally Murphy. Listen, it's already there, okay? Janine Desori wrote the score for Shrek that had Brian Darcy James, who was in Caroline or Chain, who was in a Carousel with Sally Murphy. Victoria Clark was in Titanic with Brian Darcy James, who was in Carousel with Sally Murphy. Stephen Boyer was in Hand to God with Mark Kudish, who was in Wild Party with Sally Murphy. Everyone is connected to Sally Murphy. We're going to close out with Ally Mozzie as our diva today because we've closed out with Vicky Clark before and we've closed out with Bonnie Milligan. So I think we're gonna close out Ally Mozzie and that's it. Yeah. Have a great week, everybody, and take us away, Ali. Oh, and if you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram, Ecoplik, Usual Spelly, and that's it. Take us away all.

[Announcer]

Maybe tomorrow you'll have time to spare. Sh. Pray for another day, Father, hear my praise.