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- [00:03]
A
Broadway. Broadway. We've missed it. So we're leaving soon and taking June to star her in our show. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. With us today. He's a friend of the pod, but a new addition to Zip pod. His first time. He has just made a big splash in the West End and on Broadway and off Broadway as a producer to watch. Please welcome for the first time, but not the last time, Sean Nyberg. Hello, Sean.
- [00:49]
B
Hello. Thank you. Matt Kopik. Usual spelling. It's nice to be here.
- [00:54]
A
It's lovely to have you.
- [00:56]
B
Tony winning producer.
- [00:57]
A
Oh, yes. I'm so sorry, everybody.
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B
He's a rest of my life.
- [01:00]
A
Yes.
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B
How are you?
- [01:04]
A
I'm good, I guess. Let's cut the bull here, Sean. For the listeners. Sean and I fully recorded this episode and Riverside decided not to include anything that I said or how I was looking. It just. It was a full one man show of Shawn Nyberg looking at the camera and responding to the thin air.
- [01:22]
B
The best podcast to date.
- [01:24]
A
I think probably it was full performance art. Yeah.
- [01:28]
B
Thank you.
- [01:28]
A
I'm looking at it and while I'm also watching the pit in the background, and I'm going, oh, God. And my mom, God bless her, was like, well, could you maybe voice over what you say in between, Sean? I was like, that requires me to remember every single thing that I said.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Two hours worth, too. That's impressive.
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A
Yeah. That's some Doctor who level shit. Have you ever watched Doctor who?
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B
I haven't. It's one of those that I feel like I know it because everyone talks about it, but I've never seen it.
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A
So this is your second season now as a producer?
- [01:54]
B
Yeah, yeah. Starting season two, actually one year ago, was about our first opening with Evita out in London. A vita summer in the first week of July. And the only thing that's really changed, actually, nothing's changed. It's still about 100 degrees out there and it's. And I remember being at the Palladium and the air conditioning was not sufficient. And I thought, I know London is good old London, but, man, they need to get up to date with the times.
- [02:21]
A
So that is the one thing about London that is kind of keeping me from moving there, is that the AC situation is no good.
- [02:29]
B
Well, I know, but. Yeah. So one Year. And yeah, it feels like it's been great. I mean, I was looking at the list here. I'll just list off some of the shows we're in, just as just about. In case you think I'm being biased, you can know. So. Evita, Heathers, Off Broadway, Art waiting for Godot, 50 first dates, Clarkston, messy White Gays. We were part of that. The Stereophonic Tour, Hunger Games, Midsummer Murders, Paddington, All Out Little. Oh, so sorry, I can't say that one. Spam a Lot. Dracula With Cynthia Erivo, the Unknown Sean Hayes, Dog the Afternoon Giant Kinky Boots, the Secret Garden, Cat's Jellicle ball, fear of 13, John Proctor is the villain, Titanique, Rocky Horror show, the Lost Boy, Joe Turner, Proof, Ken Rex and the Heated Rivalry Parody. So wait, you did.
- [03:18]
A
You did Titanique Broadway or Titanique London Broadway?
- [03:23]
B
Just put a little bit. Yeah, yeah, just put a little bit in there. And it had pretty good terms in terms of the tour. And that's kind of what pulled me.
- [03:30]
A
And John Proctor is the villain. Is that London? London?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Got it, got it, got it, got it. Remember you.
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B
You kept me from going on Broadway because you told me it was a bunch, you know, remember we talked about. You famously said not. I mean, for the record, you are making a very good statement on the title and the concept, but then once it opened, you've been very effusive. So I did see it at the end of last season and that kept. That got me to reach out to them in London. And it starts on the West End. In the West End in January, I believe. January, February.
- [04:02]
A
Well, you're welcome. I'm sorry that my initial reaction to the title and the byline were such that you did not see it early, Sean, But I reversed course on John Proctor as the villain as soon as I saw it. And I remain up on that show. I still have like my one Note on the 30 minutes, which is not that it's bad, but I just wish I didn't find it as complex as the prior 90. But I mean, it's still more complex than most of the shit out there right now. So that's. I call that more of a quibble than a flaw.
- [04:33]
B
You know, to be fair, someone having a strong opinion or a first take and then changing their opinion, I think is more memorable to the listener or changing because you didn't. Haven't seen it yet. But, like, your initial thought versus what you really thought, I think actually makes it more memorable. And I now still am talking about that. And so absolutely and what a special show. I think in that one closing and having was Little Bear Ridge Road come in at Little Bear Ridge, come after. I think kind of keeps it like legendary because people like it should not have closed when it did. It was such a great, exciting moment, I think.
- [05:06]
A
I wonder if they. If Little Bear Ridge Road had not already had stakes in the booth post John Proctor as the villain, if John Proctor is the villain, would have been able to maintain that momentum for a while. I think what helps its lore is that it closed out on such a high that. Yeah, like there's no stank on the Broadway production. Which I think is really important to it. Which something we're actually going to talk about with some of the lessons that you have learned as a producer for the past year. Because. Well, actually, so you have had. You've been on Broadway productions, Off Broadway productions, West End productions. Uh, with this past year of exposure. Can you tell me a lesson? One of. One of the main lessons you've taken away from the past year with your experience with all three iterations of producing and different among the three.
- [06:02]
B
A hundred percent. Okay, that's good. Uh, so one thing I would say is there's two. There's two or three different types of show in terms of producing wise. Um, I think there's some, like the Lost Boys or the Outsiders, where it doesn't matter. Like you're not going to make a profit on those by cutting back on marketing a little bit. It's either gonna be a grand slam or lose everything. Then there's some of the other ones, like the two Strangers and some of these plays where you can kind of fiddle with it and kind of slowly make some money. And that was just one thing I never really thought. Like, I didn't think too much about. But there are just these big swings and then there's some of the more strategic base. Stealing, bunting. Like these are all baseball metaphors. So stay with me. The other one. Is there a legitimate difference in terms of cost? I know people talk about that, but Off Broadway and West End is incredibly. I don't wanna say cheap. Cause that sounds wrong. But it just. It's so much more enticing to want to invest in because there's actually some kind. And they have the government in the UK that'll back shows. You know, the tax relief is not contingent on the midterm election to that. You know what I mean? Like, it seems like in New York, he's always up in the air in terms of quality of shows. I think you Know, if you're going to invest in Broadway and the Broadway shows, there's just this, like, aura of Broadway that is still very powerful, that is exciting and it's funny. At Evita last summer, and then when we opened Paddington in November or early December, there is always the question of, like, do you think it's going to transfer? So even when something is like a huge hit in the West End, the first question is always, what about Broadway? So, like, this idea that, like, yes, it's more. Makes more sense financially to invest in a show in the West End, there's still Broadway, still is the shining star that everyone wants their show to go to. Totally. Yeah. And that was something that I found really interesting because it's like, wait, wait, wait. Just let it. Let it roll here in the West End for a while. Let it make some, you know, like, we don't, you know, you can go lose your money in New York another day.
- [08:02]
A
Well, I think that's important for people to know because I think that there's always a narrative. Everyone's always wondering if something's going to transfer to Broadway everywhere. We're always looking for something of quality that's been tried and true, that has buzz. And there are some pieces where they come out and there becomes a narrative online of, oh, it's so wonderful to see something that clearly doesn't have Broadway intentions. It's content to be where it's at. And what you're telling us, Sean, is, you know, 98% of the time, that's not true. It's just almost everybody has eyes on Broadway.
- [08:36]
B
Everyone that doesn't transfer either from off Broadway or from the West End, it's because of restraint. That is not natural. You know, it's the ones that can just look at it and say, it just doesn't make sense, but still in their gut, they want to do it. So I just think some of these plays or quirkier, smaller musicals are being more careful, which is nice, because it's just a suicide mission often.
- [08:59]
A
And the more shows that just blindly come here when they're not ready or it doesn't make any sense and lose money, makes it worse for the shows after them, because then it just adds right to the average. Although I will say Oedipus, even making its money back with the tax credit is better than I expected, because, sure, while it is top two favorite things I had this season, when it came in, I was like, I don't know how they expect to make any money back because, like, great as Leslie Menville and Mark Strong are. They are not household names here. And modern adaptation of Oedipus is not something that, like, New York goes to and says, like, oh, my God, New York's hottest club is Oedipus. You know.
- [09:39]
B
Exactly. Well, and I'll tell you what, the amount of people who are shocked by the. By the. I think you talked about it too, but we saw it three times. And every time you realize who the mother is and who the wife is, and 20% of the. And I'm like, you guys, like, is this a statement on the US Education system? Like, I mean, even if you don't know the show or the play from, you know, the ancient. Like, you know the idea, right? Like the Edible complex.
- [10:06]
A
Yeah, I think sometimes, yeah, some people just feel like. I thought that was just a phrase. I mean, you'd be surprised how many people are. Are get shocked that Nathan Lane dies at the end of Death of a Salesman and I'm sitting there going, bitch, Arthur Miller ruined it with the title.
- [10:18]
B
I mean, yeah, but some people think, oh, maybe it's just he. He retires from being a salesman. Or like, even at the end of Roman Juliet. I'm sure you've been there where people are like, oh, yeah, you know, like,
- [10:28]
A
oh, my God, what the gen Alpha. That Romeo and Juliet who went, oh, my God, not you stabbing yourself, girlfriend, but also Sean, I will tell you, I saw those boys three times, once with you, and not once did I ever feel that they were truly lost.
- [10:44]
B
That's fair. That's fair. That's good. That's why. That's. To tell you the title. Speaking of exciting today, I don't want to give away what day we're recording this, but Pierre's going. Was going in for Ollie. First time. Ollie has not been on stage for his Tony nominated performance.
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A
Tony winning performance.
- [11:01]
B
Tony winning. Sorry, not nominated winning. And I'll say it's really been really cool and we'll do some Lost Boys love later, so don't worry about it. But the fandom has been amazing. Like, you look at everyone's, like, so excited. As opposed to, like, ugh, Ollie's out for. You know, I'm in here for the 4th of July weekend and I'm not getting to see Ollie and I just am like, okay, look, maybe some of these younger fans are a little bit more evolved than some of when I was younger and everyone just hated everything.
- [11:28]
A
Yeah, there's. I will say fandoms tend to actually get very excited when understudies go on. I Can't speak for the majority of non fandom audiences, but the fans of a show get very excited when understudies go on. It's an opportunity to go again. It's an opportunity to see a performer who you might have created some, let's be real parasocial attachment too and, and see them shine. But also like there is a, there is some healthy support in there as well. I always tell people when there's an understudy on that's actually a really good night to go because the cast gets really pumped.
- [12:00]
B
So. Yeah. So that those are the biggest things financially is there legitimately is a big difference between the two. And another thing we've touched on just you and I in private, but the. I think we've saw some of the extent to where some of the star casting can take a show this last season. And I think the season before we saw what could happen when someone like a George Clooney or Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal came in. They could read the phone book, Julia Roberts, Meryl Streep, they could go up there and they would sell $900 seats reading the phone book. But I think we're starting to now figure out this last season, like, okay, how far can we push the star casting as like the main reason for the existence of a show? And to what extent can we push it and to what extent do we also have to follow it up with maybe either a performance or a production that matches the talents of that star? Kind of like I don't think Sarah Snook. Snook. Snook. I know I had it wrong. So I don't know. Snook, she big in succession but she's not like, she's not like a Meryl Streep. Right. So but her performance like matched. It was just so incredible. The whole thing was just like she became that show. And so I still think that's powerful. But I do think we saw a lot of other celebrities this season in shows that didn't perform as well as I think people were hoping that were involved. And I think we're starting to see some maybe like boundaries or you know what I mean? We can't just rely on that moving forward.
- [13:26]
A
Yeah, well, I mean think about it. Sadie Sink, who is a well known actress from Stranger Things, millions of Instagram followers and has been in film and she's gonna be in some of the Spider mans now. So like, you know, she's, she's not a nobody. She has a very large fan base and yet for, like, the first month and a half of John Proctor's the Villain, all throughout previews and, like, for a couple of weeks after opening, it wasn't a hard ticket to get it. What it was was, it was a genuine word of mouth hit and granted. You take her name recognition with the word of mouth, and it be. And it becomes what it becomes. Uh, but, yeah, like, I mean, I think you're right. There are. We're learning that there are some names that are completely foolproof. Denzel Washington has proved that time and time again. But, like, people who are saying, oh, Daniel Radcliffe is foolproof, bitch. I remember when that boy was in Cripple of Inishman, and you could get an orchestra seat, five minutes for the show for, like, 20 bucks. Not that expensive.
- [14:21]
B
Wasn't that one of after. Was it? I mean, Equus was his first. Right. It was like. It was still pretty early in his theater career, though, wasn't it?
- [14:28]
A
It was Equus then. It was how to Succeed. And Equus, like, Equus was his Broadway debut, and he was nake. And so you would have. And he was doing it with Richard Griffiths, so you would have thought it was like, sro. You couldn't get a ticket. It. Yeah, it felt okay. Okay. It felt okay. Not to the extent that I think they. That we all were expecting how to Succeed. He genuinely, like, was a matinee idol, and that was a. That was a big one. And I think part of that is it, weirdly, teenage girls weren't buying tickets for See Daniel Radcliffe's dong. They were buying tickets for See Daniel Radcliffe dance, which, I mean, not.
- [15:03]
B
Not to get too into it, I think. I think g. Men are a little bit more attracted to the. To that kind of hook where women are more like. I don't want to see that. Like, I just want to see them in a nice suit, treating their mother nice.
- [15:13]
A
They want the Kendall fancy.
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B
But.
- [15:15]
A
Yeah, but I mean, the truth is that Every Brilliant Thing is really kind of the first play that Daniel's done on Broadway that has been a money maker, because every time he's done a musical, granted, it's only been two, but the musicals he has sold really well in. Every Brilliant Thing is the first time where it's like he, in a straight piece, has done gangbusters. And so I don't. I'm not even comfortable saying that Daniel's, like, a sure thing at the box office, because.
- [15:39]
B
Fair.
- [15:40]
A
Yeah. Like, you know, God forbid the next play he does. And I also love that he Keeps taking all these amazing risks in theater. I think that's awesome. He seems like awesome people, but, like, you know, what if he does, I don't know, like a bad play that's long and dull and no one likes it. Like, it will become. It will start to fade out with that kind of word of mouth. You know what I mean?
- [16:01]
B
Well, and we're co producers on every brilliant thing. And I can tell you, I mean, as nice as it looks from the weekly box office grosses, it's. It's been very good to us. And I will say he. I mean, that show's been around. Obviously, it's revival people. This on hbo. I just think it matches his personality. And in this world right now, having him just bounce around that theater and, like, being so gracious and kind and nice and welcoming is just amazing. And I knew there was a lot of, like, excitement for it before it opened, but I don't know any of the other co producers that I'm on there with realized how much his natural. Whatever.
- [16:40]
A
Charisma.
- [16:41]
B
Charisma. Uniqueness or even talent. Okay, Charisma Would help that show. And it does. And then when I remember when I heard about Mariska, we were told about a month before they announced it, I was like. And then I started asking people because I don't watch CSI,
- [16:57]
A
Law Order, SVU.
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B
I don't watch it, but everyone I know does. And they're like, oh, my God, yes, I want to go see her. I was like, okay, it's one of those cool things. I was like, I didn't realize her fan base was so huge. And people do love her too. So my point is, I think what you were saying we've talked about in private, like, where the role matches their unique personality and skill set. Yeah, it can explode.
- [17:20]
A
And we've seen it with this season. A few shows, a few that you were also on, that came out strong at first. And then I would imagine word of mouth diluted the demand for tickets. Uh, one is Dog Day Afternoon, which, you know, for the first couple of weeks of that run, all throughout previews, then probably for like a month post opening, like three or four weeks post opening, clearing a million dollars at box office every week, no problem. And it has since steadily gone down. Proof has never really had a bad week. But the weeks it's posting now are not the weeks that it first was posting. And I think that you see, you know, as you said, we're learning what exactly are guaranteed names and what are names that need a push with this with everything around it. So there's definitely a lot of interest at first. But then, you know, some things that needed a lot of help at the get go have now become you for your Tony winning piece, Sean. You know, mine. Mine, I think, was very smart about having discounted tickets, being on TDF to make it clear.
- [18:32]
B
Death of a Salesman. I don't know if we met. I just want to make sure the listeners understand. Yeah, he's talking about Death of a Salesman.
- [18:36]
A
Yes. No, no. Death of a Salesman.
- [18:37]
B
No. Arthur Miller's death.
- [18:39]
A
That was actually Sean in drag accepting the Tony for Schmidtoon.
- [18:43]
B
Hey, got the blonde. We're both naturally blonde. You watch your mouth with that. Yeah, no, I will say I was more confident in some of the shows that maybe didn't do quite as well in the box office than I was with Death From a Salesman prior to any previews. You want to know what sold me on Death of a Salesman? I was with my husband Paul, his parents, and they've been to New York twice Now, taken them 20 shows, but prior to that, they've never been to a Broadway show. So they're really good. They're from Seattle, but I think of them as the quintessential Ohio, Wisconsin. People who, like. And we're talking, we're at dinner, and I just happened to be like, oh, yeah, Paul, we got. We have an opportunity to get deaf Of a Salesman, Lori Metcalf. And then I said, and Nathan Lane and his parents weren't even paying attention. And they, like, popped up and like, Nathan Lane. And I was like, okay. Like, it wasn't cute. They had no idea what they were written. And I was like, okay. Like, he. I know himself. We talked about the way he does it. He can't sell a terrible show. Like, you know, he needs to be paired with a great production as well. But he does have a real special place in a lot of people's hearts, especially maybe the generation above us. And so I think he's got a lot of really good. Yeah, so I was just. But if you had asked me then, I would have thought, yeah, it's gonna do fine. But now it's, you know, it's standing room only, basically, and through its close in August. And it's touching. 2 million in box office gross. INS at a play in the winter garden with what, 4? I mean, there's 7. I think you count all the other characters, but really there's like, the family as the cast.
- [20:18]
A
Well, but this production is a little bit larger because Joey has decided to
- [20:23]
B
double cast Members Consuelos, his son Mark Consuelos. And excuse me, his.
- [20:29]
A
His legal name is Kelly Ripa Jr.
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B
I'll tell you, I love them. Paul's only critique, and he thought they were great actors and everything. He's like. He's like, they're just bouncing around a lot. And I'm like, yeah. Like, I was like, do you remember my nephew when he was like, 12? That's all they did. Just bouncing around and being like, let's fight. Let's wrestle. And I was like, yeah, it's kind of, you know, but it's.
- [20:50]
A
Tell you tell Paul straight from my mouth that he's not allowed to be negative on. Especially. I'm assuming he said this during Pride. At least I'm going to maintain the narrative that he's not allowed to look down on pretty people bouncing about. They can bounce as much as they want, especially in those tight football uniforms. Joe Mantello understands under.
- [21:15]
B
Well, no comment.
- [21:18]
A
But now he understands what I need. He understands Pride is over.
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B
Pride is over. Now we can't be proud anymore. Now it's all about America.
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A
The irony is that I'm proud 11 months out of the year, and Pride is the one month where I'm not proud of.
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B
Can I tell you something funny about casting stars? So we. And Heather's. They cast Peyton List at the first part of this year, and she. I didn't really know who she was because, I mean, just. I don't watch the Disney Channel and nothing. I mean, I just. So Paul, I looked her up when we got the announcement, and it's like, she's got 27 million followers, right? I was like, oh, wow. Like, she's. And obviously, like, the box office definitely saw a big jump with it. But one thing we also noticed, and I'm not telling tales out of school, because you could see it in some of the Broadway news reporting the audience. There was like the influx of younger fans who'd never been to Broadway or off Broadway theater and never had the ability to be that close to someone with that much love with younger audiences. And pictures, just like straight up, taking. Standing up, taking pictures during the show with flashes, screaming stuff at her. They really had to. Like, the cast was going on Instagram. Like, the other cast members being like, you guys, that's dangerous, too. It distracts people. There's like fight choreography and lifting. And it's just. That was one thing that was really interesting about the star. Casting you have to think about, too, is also the demographic and what kind of audience experience could shift depending on who you have playing in your show.
- [22:43]
A
So, yeah, I mean, listen, not for nothing, but when I was at Goodnight and Good Luck and George Clooney made his entrance, which was very intelligently done as a, as a speech at an award ceremony. He comes out to that podium and I shit you not, like a thousand people at the Winter Garden whipping out their phones to take pictures of him. All like, all full grown ass adults and, and watching like a dozen ushers running up and down the aisles with their, with their flashlights just being completely useless. They. There was nothing that they could do. People were gonna get their photos then call it a day. And I, I'm not gonna say, to be fair to them, because it's stupid and it's gross and they shouldn't do it. But at least like, you know, that was the only time that it happened. It was his entrance and then everyone was done for the rest of the night. But I just. Yeah, and I was like, you know what? This play is boring. At least you got your photo. But it's so. It was just. Ugh, girl, I hate it. I hate it.
- [23:36]
B
But then there's something. Sorry, Nathan Lane, and sorry, I know you want to keep this film, but what's it called? Death of Salesman. I think the tone that like Joe Mantello sets with it is like even. I mean, again, I don't think Nathan Lane is bringing all these young girls who want to take pictures of them. But the idea I, you know, he's at the Star with. Some people might want to, but it's so solemn and serious. You know, when he comes like slinking out of that car in the beginning, I couldn't imagine people being like, oh my God. Like, well, I mean, I could probably imagine it nowadays, but you know, I do think the tone of the show also can set some of that. Yeah, sure.
- [24:10]
A
Listen, as Leslie Manville said, audiences don't want to sit with anything anymore, so people will absolutely do what they're going to do. But I do think that this production of Salesman, from the moment you walk in, really urges you to shut the fuck up and absorb.
- [24:26]
B
A hundred percent. Yeah. And so I think. Yeah, so. But we're talking about some of the other stars and I just, you know, none of them like fully bombed. But I. When Paul and I like go to London, I always say I need two reasons to go. Like. Cause it's from Seattle, it's a really long flight. And like, so like, if like one show we're doing is opening, so I try to Find two reasons to justify the flight. And I feel like maybe some of these shows, it's like that too, where it's like a decent star. Sufficient by itself is not maybe sufficient to make it a guaranteed hit. It needs like a second part of it, part of the production. Then it's like, then it can elevate itself maybe more than it would without a name star. So I think like a name star juices it up, but it needs to also have something underneath it.
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A
There's also an excitement sometimes of a name actor who, you know, all of a sudden showing a side of themselves that you could never have expected. And that itself can start to become an event. And you know, I, I would equate Alden Ehrenreich this season in Becky Shaw akin to, I mean, not quite at this level of notoriety, but still to this level of success. You look at an Angela Lansbury in Mame or a Lauren Bacall in Applause. Someone from Hollywood coming to Broadway at a moment in their career where they're not really top of the litter, but just absolutely landing the plane on Broadway in a way that audiences don't expect. And so the narrative goes from, oh, that movie actor that I know and I always liked all of a sudden becomes, oh, they can do this. Gotta go. I gotta. Who knew? And that I think is also very exciting.
- [26:07]
B
Would you say before it started writing Becky Shaw that Madeline Brewer was a bigger name than Alden?
- [26:15]
A
No, Alden was. Alden from. In my money was the big name. Madeline had the better track record because of Handmaid's Tale. But she was never, she was never like a major name from that show. I think more people just knew her as the one eyed girl from, from that show Alden had. The thing about Alden is that he was a part of a lot of big name projects, but a lot of them didn't do well. So there was sort of this think on him of this really talented. Like everyone who has seen him knows he's talented, but it's always sort of like, you know, the guy that Hollywood keeps on mistreating. And so he never got to be a movie star or whatever our equivalent of a modern movie star is. So he has his fans, but isn't. Yeah, as I said, he has never had a project with as many passionate followers as Madeline does. But I don't think that makes Madeline a bigger name. She's just part of a bigger thing.
- [27:09]
B
Yeah, got it.
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A
If any. Actually, you know what, I would even argue that at the time that Becky Shaw came out Patrick Ball was probably had the most heat going on. Yes.
- [27:19]
B
Oh, my God, yes. I forgot. I mean, because that's the sad thing. I mean, he was fine. It's just his role wasn't that big. But I do remember that was the name the first time we saw it, I was like, oh, yeah, Madeline. And then Patrick Ball. And then I was like, oh, his character. Like, they don't just give him a lot to do as much as Alden's character.
- [27:35]
A
Alden is the lead of that show. And I maintain, while I'm thrilled he has that Tony, it was absolutely category fraud. He should have been in, you know, leading male actor. But, yeah, Patrick's character was meant to be this wet blanket simp, which he played beautifully, but. And I hadn't even.
- [27:52]
B
Not wet blanket simp. Oh, my God. Sorry. That's just perfect.
- [27:56]
A
A wet blanket simp, baby. But that's got it. And I had not even seen the Pit yet, so I knew that he was on it, but I. I had no idea that the Pit had such a fervent fan base, but it does. It's really fucking popular, to the detriment of some of these performers on stage. Like, Issa Brion's talking about getting yelled at during Justin time from people who think that they're impressing her, and she's like, shut the fuck up. I hate you.
- [28:22]
B
Well, and I was. You were. Hit the Alden Eren on the head with that. Because I saw Weapons, like, three times. Like, I. I'm like, I'm a person. Like, I'll buy a Mov Apple iTunes store, like, if I like it. Just so, like, the studio knows, like, I'm not just streaming this. I'm gonna pay the 20 bucks or whatever. And I had to go. I had to watch it again after seeing Becky Shaw to be like, wait, who is he in that movie? I don't know why. I mean, he was great in it, and the movie was a huge hit. But, like, you're right. It just. He never really popped in Hollywood, and he definitely popped in Becky Shaw.
- [28:52]
A
Yeah. I think it helps that, you know, he's the focal point of Becky Shaw in a way that Weapons. He is fantastic in Weapons, but Weapons is very much an ensemble piece, and he's, like, the fourth lead of that movie. That's always been his career, but so that's. I'm hoping Becky Shaw has proven to be a really big boost for him in terms of showing people what he can do. And, I mean, I think he should come back next season in Another play and just be the fucking matinee idol we know he can be.
- [29:18]
B
You know, I don't want to spend too much more time on this, but I just wanted to ask. When I saw it, I saw it twice. Twice. Two times. He. His character, I thought, like, is this gonna be like two hours of him just doing the same note? But he kind of did. But after, like, me, I was like, oh, this is funny. Then I was like, this is kind of annoying. And then I was like, I like it again.
- [29:39]
A
Yeah.
- [29:39]
B
You know what I mean? Maybe it's because he just stuck with it that almost. I was like, okay. Like, I believe that he is this kind of asshole.
- [29:45]
A
Yeah, yeah. He's. He's very forthright about who he is, and he's pretty fully formed, which is kind of why the last 15 minutes of that play are so interesting, because it's finally like, oh, I think there might be a slight vulnerable spot here. And it looks like dear old Becky has found it and she's about to zero in.
- [30:05]
B
That's. That's such a great show. And Gina, who. What's her last name again? I always say it wrong.
- [30:09]
A
Not Gershon, but we're gonna call her Gina Gershon for today because you can't.
- [30:12]
B
Gina. Whatever. She.
- [30:14]
A
She wrote like Giancarlo or something like that.
- [30:17]
B
Yeah, Giancarlo Jean. Anyway, she wrote the Silence of the Lambs stage adaptation that we are signing on to right now to co produce in London. It's going to. Gonna tour around the UK and then it's gonna. The idea is, hopefully you don't hope as all of these are, it says. And then hopefully the West End and hopefully Broadway, yada, yada, yada. But first things first. It's. And so I asked for the script, and it's great. Gina, she wrote it. Like, I love that movie. Like, it's what, you know, I love horror. And like, that was right up my alley in the early 90s. And it's a very. She does a very good job of writing. Her. Her scripts are really interesting to read too, because they're kind of like, maybe they wear this, maybe they say this, maybe they like. She's very conversational with the reader of the script in the notes. And I find that really enjoyable as you're reading it to kind of help give you. Paint a picture for you, more so than some of the other scripts that I read.
- [31:05]
A
So. Yeah.
- [31:05]
B
Yeah, that sounds interesting, though.
- [31:07]
A
I find your timing of that interesting, Sean, since I just sent you my script yesterday, so clearly I haven't read it yet.
- [31:13]
B
I have not read it yet. I'm so sorry. That's what he's.
- [31:15]
A
No, there's a thing on that, on Mike. Because the truth is that he has read it and now he's going. Some scripts just are not. Don't engage you as a reader. Not like Gina scripts.
- [31:25]
B
Chef. Just feel like she's talking to me. But like here, real quick, a few things at the start. So like I'm looking at my wall over there. You got Waiting for Godot. I think that was just first of all, Keanu Reeves. I didn't. I just forget how big of a star he really is. And like we would see it, like even an opening, like just how the special. This amount of security and stuff around him is insane. And then Art, like that was. I mean it got fine reviews, it made money, you know, and then, I don't know, it's just. Those are interesting. You kind of forget those were there earlier in the season. But like they were the first shows of the season to recoup and make a profit. And those are great. We need more of those in the fall. Just three three month runs. Keep investors excited to invest in some of the other riskier stuff. By put, you know, getting a little bit, you know, 10%, 20% return keeps
- [32:12]
A
the theater occupied for three or four months while something maybe a little more titillating comes in the spring. No, no harm, no foul. I mean, Art. What this production of Art really kind of exposed to me is that Art itself is not the greatest play. It's so 1998. And yeah, and that's fine. There's a place for that. We, we love our nostalgia. But yeah, like I was watching it going, there's nothing bad here. It's just.
- [32:38]
B
Yeah.
- [32:38]
A
I don't think Jasmine Rez is as good a playwright as we thought she was 25 years ago.
- [32:43]
B
Oh, no. Did you see? I, I've. I've become conversational with James Corden and stuff since then. And like, I, I do believe if this would have opened in late winter or early spring, he could have had a featured nomination. Oh, no, they, they put all three by the title.
- [32:58]
A
I forgot about that.
- [32:58]
B
But yeah, they were all that's wild that James Corden would have been considered lead actor in the play. But all in was considered featured actor. That's wild.
- [33:08]
A
The category. She's fraudulent.
- [33:11]
B
Ms. Fraudulent. Ms. Fraudulent. So, yeah, the stars thing, that was interesting. This season they weren't, like I said, weren't quite as you kind of bank on em as much as you did the season before.
- [33:23]
A
Yeah. So this past season also is your first time really in the thick of Tony season with Broadway. Anything interesting that you experienced or that you would like the listeners to know about how Tony's season go down?
- [33:35]
B
Yes, I have a lot, actually. Cause this is funny. So obviously, before I did the theater stuff, before I could even talk, I was been like, a little award show gay, you know, Like, I was the one. I literally said to my dad when I was, like, 14. You think it was like, Oscar Sunday. And I'm like, this is my super bowl, you know? Like, I. You know, I. This is always. So now being a part of it, having some stakes involved, like, it was really interesting. First of all, if you're in a ward show gay, you've had stakes the whole time. So that was one thing I did realize was like, yeah, it's different when you've got your own shows and you have some financial potential, financial repercussions depending on if you win or don't. But I took it so seriously before that that even, like, you know, I would take it personally when Moulin Rouge lost over a beautiful. Like.
- [34:19]
A
And for a second, I was like, what Tony season? Is that the Oscar season?
- [34:25]
B
Yeah.
- [34:25]
A
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.
- [34:26]
B
You know, and so, yeah, I used to. So anyway. But what's interesting is this talk. It is funny how everyone does silo off into their little quarters the minute the nominations come out even a little bit before, because you kind of see a lot of, you know, the writing on the wall with some of these nominations. But it does get very competitive. And it gets. But then there's always. Those rules are very clear about, like, you can't disparage other shows. You can't. Like, you can share reviews of yours, but you can't share, like, negative reviews of something. So everyone stays above the fray. But there's definitely a lot of tension. And I'll also. But what was interesting was the night of the Tonys, being in the audience, like, with the other nominees, there's kind of a feeling of, like, why are we so worked up? Like, there's more a sense of a community. The night of the Tonys, it sounds. I just think it's because we're all together again and we're looking around like we're all gonna work on a project Pauly together next season. So, like, these aren't gonna be, like, entrenched, like, you know, like, battles against for, like, 10 years. It's like, oh, half these people went to Juilliard together. You know, and so it's a little funny when you kind of get away from your little group and you get mixed with everyone and you're like, wait, you know, like, we're all in this together. That sounds a little Kumbaya ish. But it was an interesting feeling I had. Like, I felt less nervous the day of the actual award than I did maybe the day before. Yeah, you have to pay for your Tony.
- [35:49]
A
Say what?
- [35:50]
B
Sorry, go on. This is something I told someone recently there. I mean, Yeah, I think you know this, but, like, if you win, you still have to. You know, it's like $3,500. You have to get a trophy. Even if you win, you have to pay for it and, like, it takes a few months to get delivered or get mailed. That's just something that's pretty interesting that not everyone knows about. Yeah. Anyway, what are you going to say about that?
- [36:09]
A
Well, I was going to say because leading up to the Tonys from, I mean, even before Tony nomination morning, because it's like a 2ish weeks before that of drama desk and Autocratic Circle and all that stuff, there's a lot of strategy that has to be done, a lot of campaigning. Like, you're. Everyone is working towards a thing and. And you're always kind of looking around to see how everyone else is doing. Ed. In addition to having a show to put up eight times a week. So there's just. There's just. It's a lot of. It's not even that there's a lot of pressure. There's just a lot of energy. Every day you're wiped every day. You're not even really your best self because of everything. You're putting in 24 hours a day. And then when the actual day happens, there's nothing left you can do. Voting ends that Friday. And so that weekend becomes. Well, we did everything we thought we could do and now we. All we can do is enjoy it, which is a shame because there are some pretty fun parties and food spreads before the Tonys that you want more of these nominees to enjoy. The best thing I got from going to the drama leagues in 2023 was eating the damn food because it was good fucking food. Sean.
- [37:15]
B
These people have to do so many galas, these performers and nominees. And all I know is this season they added like six more. And it's like, you guys, we need to start cutting some of these galas. I just watch, like, Ollie and Shoshana and some of these other, like Casey, and they're like, everywhere. Then they got to go perform that night.
- [37:32]
A
Yeah.
- [37:33]
B
Well, anyway, so Tony's were fun.
- [37:35]
A
I have, I have an awards body that I want to create myself, Sean. But granted, our first awards will not be a gala. It will be a very. I don't want to give too much away because I intend to make a post about this to see how the, how the community might feel about it. But our first gathering will be at Joe Allen and it'll just be during the day. And the moment their category is done, they leave. They don't gotta wear no gown, they don't gotta go on any red carpet. If they win, they get a drink voucher for Bar Centrali where they get to have a drink or a mocktail in peace. And if they lose, they have to stay at the bar for another 10 minutes. Have some fries with me while I talk about how it's a crime that the poster for Smile is not on the walls of Joe Allen. Which is to say, Sean, that everyone is still a winner.
- [38:17]
B
I love this idea. What? And I want to. Being in the room at the Tonys, I will say not just because Lost Boys didn't win and we also were two Strangers carry Cake. The schmigadoon one. It's. I feel the same way. Even at the Oscars, by the time it's the big award at the end of the night, like maybe a third have already kind of left. It's almost like if you get some of the bigger ones earlier, like when Jaylen won for best Jaylen and Bill for best Director for Cats. Like, I felt like there was so much more energy in the room at that point than there was for some of the final awards where people are just a little bit exhausted.
- [38:47]
A
Yeah, the more, yeah, the closer you get to the end, it's a double edged sword because they try to save the biggest awards for the end of the night, but that's also when people are tired and want to go home. And I won't say exactly what year this was, but there was a year of the Theater World Awards where for some reason they decided to put the Dorothy Loudon Award at like at the very end of the of the evening. The Dorothy Loudon Award is, is not actual Theatre World Award. It goes to a performer who has been on Broadway before. But like now the Theater World Awards feel like, you know, oh, you really made your mark this year in a way that we hadn't noticed before. It's a little bit of a backhanded compliment, but. But some wonderful people have won it. But this one Particular year, within the last, like, four or five years, they put that award at the very end of the night. And the poor soul who was accepting their Dorothy Loudon Award, I'm telling you, like, rows of people were just like, they were booking it because the Theater Gold Awards are on a Monday. They go so long because there's no one's timing their speeches. Peter Felicia, God bless him, he is very long winded with his hosting skills. And I say this as someone who's famously long winded. So that award ceremony just goes on forever. And so that was one where it's like they were giving their speech and like, just people by the does is just getting up in the middle of it. And I felt bad. But also, you know, that's award shows for you.
- [40:05]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so the other thing we got, you do get a little bit of instruction before the award shows from the Tonys, like, through your show. But it tells you, like, it gives you a little heads up how the stage is going to be set up, where to stand, like, when you go up, like, which. So we knew Nathan Lane was going to accept it if Death of a Salesman won. We knew, like, the three producers from Lost Boys would have accepted it. So we knew, like, who was gonna accept. And, like, they were very clear about let them get out of their way. So they get to the microphone and they were telling us, like. Like the way, because there's like a little bridge and like, where to stand around. So that was a little bit of something I wasn't expecting because we didn't get that till the night before the morning of with some shows. So Paul and I were like, were we just gonna wing it like this broadcast live on tv? Like, so. So we. I mean, we got the instructions. That was really nice. And then I would say that was. Oh, oh. I also want to comment on Pink. I think Pink's opening was just absolutely fantastic. I know this isn't a Tony recap. I just was really impressed. I know Tim Murray was one of the writers amongst a few others. There's some really good D about that whole process that I can't share on here, but we'll talk about in private. That is really interesting. I mean, you don't have that many performers from all those shows and not have some good stories.
- [41:18]
A
Oh, yeah, I got some too. Stories from performers who were there. Stories about people who ended up canceling, like, day of day before. A lot of changes happening. That thing was not locked in until, like, that afternoon.
- [41:32]
B
But you wouldn't have known it if you just watched the show, like, that's what's so great.
- [41:35]
A
It was fantastic. They should be very proud. Yeah. Hot take, everybody. Sean Nyberg wanted it on the record that he thought that the opening was good.
- [41:43]
B
I. I loved it. The few times there were a few. A few choreography to camera where, like, from the audience, I was like, what are they doing? And then I think there's, like, a bird's eye shot or whatever. And I'm like, okay, that makes sense.
- [41:53]
A
That's the thing about in the Room that people don't think about is, like, there are some performances that really think about how to make it work for camera because that's ultimately where it's going to live in perpetuity. And when you're in the room, you sometimes go, well, that was sort of a whatever. Like last year, I remember I wasn't there for the 2025 Tonys. I watched it. But I did get to go to the maybe happy ending after party, which was a good one to be at. But afterwards, I went up to a few friends of mine who were in the audience, and I was. And I said to them, did the Floyd Collins performance look weird in the room? And they go, yeah. How did it look on tv? And I said, it looked fantastic on tv, but I knew watching it that it was gonna look so weird in Radio City Music Hall. But on camera, it worked beautifully.
- [42:31]
B
Yeah. And I will say, like, ragtime. That was. You know, theirs was a great performance, just in the sense that, like, it was. It was big. And, like, they did a good job of, like, staging it for the cameras a lot. I mean, a lost voice. I mean, that was hard. I know they wanted. They wanted them to fly, but they. They just couldn't. They worked so hard to make it look nice in the Palace. They weren't going to, like, put them on wires at Radio City and have people be like, is this what the show is? And so anyway, that was really great. I also wanted to say, too, like, it was a nice way, you know, what? Lost fours got four. Shmika dude got four. Ragtime got four. Cats got three. So, like, no one really walked away as, like. Like a Hamilton. You know, where they won, what, 11, 12.
- [43:10]
A
111. Yeah. Producers still holds the record with 12, but.
- [43:14]
B
And Jim, when Jiminy Click was interviewing, who was the producer?
- [43:19]
A
Mel Brooks.
- [43:20]
B
He's just trying to hunt Mel Brooks, and he's like. He's like, but you're a nominator for 14, because, like, obviously he had two. Two nominations in one category. So he didn't win everyone. It was just so funny. He's like, so he didn't win all of them. He's like, anyway, I'll take Jim Neglect and Mel Brooks.
- [43:33]
A
My favorite line from that interview with Mel Brooks is, when Jim Neglect goes, what's your big beef with the Nazis?
- [43:38]
B
I don't think it's Mel Brooks having something to say about the Nazis and Mel Brooks. I don't know. They're pushy. Yeah.
- [43:44]
A
He's like, I think they're rude.
- [43:46]
B
Yeah, they're rude. They're just rude. Anyway, sorry. Okay. So, yeah, the Tony. And I will say so that was kind of nice. At the end, everyone felt like they won. Like, I think again, Ollie winning was like a surprise. I think Schmeika June winning Best Musical was always a big excitement. I think Ragtime winning over Cats was a bummer for people who love Cats, but also good for them. Cats won Best Director. They had a great show, a great performance. So I feel like everyone walked away pretty happy. I think Two Strangers was a little bummed. I think they really were hoping for either a book or a score because,
- [44:18]
A
I mean, I don't know, Two Strangers was going for the Gentleman's Guide, maybe Happy ending narrative of we stuck it out from the fall and here we are and we won the big prize. And that can happen, but it's rare. I remember when maybe Happy Ending one last year I took a sigh because a. I thought it was the rightful winner and it was really lovely that they won. But I took a beat and I was like, there are so many musicals that are going to take the wrong lesson from this, like, end game that they did because it was a very similar model to Gentleman's Guide, but again, they had very similar situations, which is. People look at it as going, oh, well, you know, the show that opened, the small show in the fall, that's struggling, but, like, got a good review in the Times. Like, it's not just that that gets you the win. There are other key factors.
- [45:07]
B
So it's a shame that last season was what I mean, Sunset one, best revival, too, and that opened in the fall. So, like, there. And also Ragtime won Revival a Open in the Fall. So there's good. You know, maybe. I mean, I'm not saying that there's anything to that, but I guess my point is, I think you're right that people are going to forget that those are anomalies. That's not really. That shouldn't be the playbook that you should be designing.
- [45:26]
A
There's usually something in the air around the potential winner. And ultimately I listen. I did not see the ballast. I don't know. It's entirely possible that Ragtime did win in a landslide. I don't think so, because for Cats to win the awards that it won and then Ragtime to ultimately win production leads me to believe that it was a close call, maybe, you know, by a hundred votes, which is, you know, not the slimmest of margins, but, like, that's not a landslide either. And I think that catch me at the very least, very happy with the awards that it got, if not revival and Rack Time in the end, got their revival win and good for Lincoln Center. They. They are a classy bunch over there. And I hope that they use that win for good in the future.
- [46:13]
B
I will say someone who's very, very, very big up in the Cats and that in that team, they made a really good point. They just were saying Rackham felt like the moment. And I know you've had your opinions of it. We've shared similar opinions. You know, if you look. If you. If you do more than just a quick glance, you can see all the. But it makes people feel like that. And they made a good point. They're like in any other. They think in any other year, in the last maybe, except for Meredith, I don't know that Cats would have won, but there's just nothing could have beat when there's just a moment with the politics and just the world. You just can't beat that, no matter how good your campaign is. And I also think you're asking a lot for a bunch of these older voters. I mean, to be voting for a show that is for Cats, that is very geared towards younger people who love the ballroom pole. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is a little niche. Like, if you think about, like, I love it. So to me, it fills everything up. But I need to step back sometimes and go, you know, it is niche, though. Like, you know, are these Tony voters
- [47:15]
A
are inconsistent about when something is too much for them? There are. There are wins in the past where I go, that's a cool, weird win. And then other years where I go, that's rather safe. And so I look at Sunset last year, and I go, considering the lineup of revivals went, that was a cool, weird win. I look at Woklahoma, that was a cool, weird win. But they don't do it as often as I would like. And I think I. I get blind every year, like, the week before the Tonys with the shows that I'm really passionate about. And I come up with narratives in my head of what could get them Tonys. And the narratives are not false, they're not unrealistic, but they're not necessarily appropriate for that moment. For example, the people who, the way that I was about Jellicoe Ball potentially winning was me kind of turning a blind eye to, as you said, ragtime being so the moment in a way that I kind of just refused to believe and then. But the same way I know people who are very big fans of two strangers who were so insistent that it could follow the same narrative as maybe happy ending while kind of ignoring the clear momentum that that Schmingadoon and Lost boys were having 100%.
- [48:27]
B
And I think, and I, yeah, you're right. And I think you kind of, you can blind even though you're telling yourself, like, it's almost like a presidential election. Like, you know, like, I'm not to get to but like, you know, in Trump won or Kamala at the moment it was like, what? And then you kind of look back like a month later and you're like, you know, we all should have seen it coming. Like, you know, and so, like, I just think when you're in the moment, you can talk yourself out of, like, logic. And so I also, like we talked we mentioned before, I do, I don't think the Tonys have as much impact nowadays than they used to because people don't watch the Tonys like they used to. No one, like, very few people are watching on CBS, like with commercials. They're watching the performances on YouTube. The next day, they're getting the headline. And I just think, I do think it helps. I think we saw Schmigadoon have a nice little bump. I mean, I know they pulled back a little bit this last week week and their grosses, but, you know, it'll be interesting to see how much they actually affect shows moving forward.
- [49:22]
A
I agree. My hot take is I think that the Tonys should move over to YouTube in the way that the Oscars will be doing in a few years. I, I ultimately think that is where the future is. And yeah, it's, I don't think that's a bad thing. And I, I, I think that YouTube, they can see their expansion, their, their outreach expand by a lot by just sort of.
- [49:46]
B
Yes.
- [49:47]
A
Committing to online. But so I wanted all this is to say everything. Okay, so everything you've learned from this past season, Broadway, Off Broadway, West End, from everything you've learned from this Tony season.
- [49:59]
B
Yes.
- [50:00]
A
Can you give us. Can you talk to us a little bit about some of the things that you have going on next season that you're allowed to talk about?
- [50:06]
B
Sure. Yeah. I'm excited.
- [50:08]
A
Yeah. And all these things that you've learned, how you see it going for some of these projects and sort of what you see for next season in general,
- [50:16]
B
I think we're gonna see a continuation of some of these Off Broadway shows. Staying off Broadway, We've discussed this before, and I think they're just gonna be smart about, like, you know, we can make a lot of money. Just post. Like, everyone uses what Little Shop of Horrors as, like, kind of the gold standard right now, you know? And so I will say, I do know some really, really great shows that are coming in off Broadway, and I would not be that they stayed off Broadway, which two, three years ago. You would never. You know, there's always a stepping, you know, that's always just a way to get to Broadway. And so I think that's gonna be happening more, which is nice. So that means that we won't just have 41 theaters we can go to. We can go to all these Off Broadway ones too. I think. I do think the Lost Boys doing really well has. Has, like, box office wise, has. Okay, had it tanked, like, and it opened and it never really broke a million, then I think there'd be like, a little bit like, meh, maybe we're not ready to go these big, Big spectacles yet. Maybe, you know, but I think it's. It's. It's doing really well with mixed reviews, you know, like, it got. I'd say got generally positive, but there was definitely. It wasn't overwhelming. And so I think we're gonna see that real come out in, like, with Paddington coming over. Some of these bigger shows, I think, are feeling a little more confident that, like, maybe some of these audiences want to fly into New York and go see something big. Even if the second act is a little change of tone or something like that, they just want to see big. They want to see something they can't see in Missouri or even Seattle. Like, you know, in Seattle, our. Our theater, the paramount theater, has 3,500 seats, I think. I mean, so a show comes into that, and you can have some of the worst experiences there because it's not like these tours are not, you know, they're stereophonic. I put it right there. They came stereophonic perform in Seattle at the paramount theater at 3,500 seats, a touring version of. And, like, People were like, oh, I. I. First time seeing. I don't really get with. And I'm like. Because it's not meant for, like, Something with a thousand more seats than Gershwin. Like, it's not meant for that. It's meant for small. Like 500, 600. So my point is, I think that. I think we're gonna see maybe another shift over to some bigger ones, which I think is exciting. I think Evita, people will say, like, oh, it's stripped down. It's like a concert, but it's big. I mean, it's like, even Sunset was small in some ways, but it was still big. I mean. Yeah, like, the screen and like, it was just. And so I think with Evita, too, it's like. Like you didn't see it, but you've seen enough videos. I think of it from London like, it's. It's a rock concert. Like, it's. It's big, loud and brash. And I think that's exciting for people who. Who are. Who are looking for some event. Absolutely.
- [52:49]
A
I think. I think that it. Scenery is alone, does not make something a spectacle. I think it's more. It's more how you use your environment. And I think what makes Jamie Lloyd an interesting director and why he's kind of on the pulse right now, now, is that, yes, he is minimalist in terms of literal, physical set pieces now, but what he does within that space doesn't feel cheap or on a budget. So.
- [53:16]
B
Wait for. You did see Godot, right? You saw Godot?
- [53:18]
A
Yeah, a girl in the last three seasons. I am. I am on top.
- [53:22]
B
Look at you. You are. Well, I won't say anything about you being on top. It was. I'll say this about waiting for Godot. Like, you know, people can have issues with the play. It is. But, like, it was an interesting. Like, the design was so unique. I felt like it was just like, you're right. Like, he didn't. There's not much to it, but there is. Like, with Jamie Lloyd, I feel like. Like, at first glance, you're like, oh, it's like a big. Whatever the people say it looks like the bottom of a sink. Like a. Or what is that big? But, like, I feel like it. It took the show to a different level in a very striking way.
- [53:55]
A
It wasn't. It wasn't overwhelmed. Yeah. It wasn't overwhelming, but it was striking. Yeah.
- [53:59]
B
And I think that's. And I think that's what I think we'll. Hopefully we'll see some more bold. Bold. Bold. Big, bold. Things I think, like Sutra Gilmore's set for two strangers. I loved it because I thought it was so creative. But. And I know a lot of people at first were like, look at what they did with that. It was everything. The hotel room, the airport. But also then I started hearing a lot of people, like, really don't like it too. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, I don't know. It was just. It is interesting. I think people. I think people are starting to give more credit to big swings. Even if it doesn't land, they're at least. You know what, you tried something.
- [54:33]
A
Yeah, there's definitely more of that. Of. I'd rather you try something and not hit the mark than go for the lowest common denominator and nail it. Because it's just. That's just less impressive. I'm. I mean, I'm. I sort of have one foot in both doors of. I give credit where it's due of someone who tries something, but I'm also like, listen, you weren't aiming for the moon, but you did. You hit your task dead on. And that is also not something to sneeze at. I think with Gilmore's set with two strangers, part of it is just the, like, overwhelming, like, clay, like, whiteness of the. Of the color of it. Yeah, I. I do love the creativity and the inventiveness and all the surprises in that set. But I also, like, I. When I walked in the door and I just saw the color scheme, I went, well, that's fine. But. But. And I can imagine that. I can imagine that sits with people longer with a. With a lack of interest, you know.
- [55:24]
B
Yeah. And so I think. Yeah. And other than that, though, I do think we're going to see. There was less. There were less shows this season. I know you said you're not. You're not against, like, having, like, we don't need last season and we don't need. We don't need as many as last season. We don't need as few as this season.
- [55:40]
A
Yeah.
- [55:41]
B
And I think we're gonna maybe hit that nice middle this. This next year, which will be nice. Like, enough to where some will get, like, the only one that really got, like, no Tony Love that probably should have. And I'm gonna. And I know you agree in some levels, Queen of Versailles. I do think the fact that, like, I think Dane Laughrey could have. If he would have got nominated for best set design, I don't think people would have blinked at that. I think. And Stephen Schwartz not getting. Let me ask you This. I know we're going back a little bit to Tony's as opposed to looking forward, but I want to ask, and I've always wanted to ask you this, not always my whole life. I want to add Matt hop with usual fellas.
- [56:13]
A
Ever since, you have always.
- [56:16]
B
I wonder if some of the. And the nominators didn't want to give score to Queen of Versailles because it ended so abruptly that there's a large group of voters who didn't get a chance to see it, so they wouldn't be able to vote at all in that category. And same with Kristen and maybe Dane and maybe. I know the costumes had a whole issue behind it, but they really seem not to care about that when nominating. In terms of, like, nominating and giving awards to people who have histories that are problematic, I mean, we saw it a lot. And so, you know, I'm just saying, like, those elements alone should have been on or at least should have been at least on the bubble.
- [56:56]
A
I've been very vocal that I thought that Queen of Versailles deserved a score and best scenic design nomination. I'm. While I thought she wasn't fully successful in the role, I do think that Chenoweth's swing in that role and her interest to go beyond her norm was impressive and, like, it was also just a mighty feat of physical vocal stamina. And I. I probably would have nominated her. I think my biggest hot take that would piss people off is, like, I would have nominated her over Lea Michele and Ch. But I do. And I ultimately think that too many nominators just fully disliked not only the show itself, but what they perceived that show stood for. I don't think that show stands for what its biggest critics think it stands for. I think that the show fails at attempting a kind of nuanced, satirical edge of its subject matter. And part of the proof of that is just how many people who I consider smart, insightful artists, some of whom are Tony nominators, how they just so boldly didn't get what the show was attempting. Yeah, because I'm. I'm sort of sitting here going, like, critique it for how it failed. But if you, like, if you genuinely think that Michael Arden and Stephen Schwartz sat down and were like, let's write a pain to the wealthy and how it's amazing to be wealthy. Like, come on, you really think.
- [58:18]
B
And this ties exactly. Into another thing I think we're going to see more of or less of is these long developmental processes where, like, this show that Shaquilla Versailles been around like you know, so much money was poured into it before it even came to Broadway. And I think it makes it immobile in terms of making changes because it's so much, you know, And I think if you're making something that's satirical about something like the wealthy conservatives, like, like, it's so hard to do that, that when you do it on such a big stage, it's so easy to, like, miss.
- [58:49]
A
Yeah.
- [58:49]
B
And, and if, if you miss satire, you can take it as like, like you said, like, where a lot of people, I think, took it wrong. Like they thought it was a love letter to, to the.
- [58:58]
A
What's her name, the Maga Elitists, which I think is what was her.
- [59:01]
B
Were the characters Jackie Siege, Jackie Siegel and David Siegel?
- [59:04]
A
Yeah, I think so. Lin Manuel Miranda taking seven years to write Hamilton ultimately became a bad thing for the industry because then there became. There became a norm of super long development, which is, as you like, I think we're in agreement on this. Yes. Like, sometimes people's schedules just don't line up. And it takes. Shows take a while to write. Not because, you know, Sara Bareilles needs six years to write the Waitress score, but because Sara Bareilles has three albums she's contractually obligated to make. Absolutely make. So she's really only able to devote like three months of a year to the Square Waitress. I'm, I'm paraphrasing here, but, you know, Waitress was in development for a little bit of a while. Not seven years, but more than two. And so there, there becomes this whole meticulous. No, no, no, we need the length. Because these shows take forever to come together. People forget it took six months to write Gypsy. You know, and sometimes the longer you spend on something, the more you start cutting your nose to spite your face with these shows and things that might have worked three years ago. You now change because it's been three years of you being used to this part of the show, and now you're thinking like, it's not funny anymore. It's not powerful anymore. Or things that didn't work, that have been in the show for three years that all of a sudden you're now used to. In your mind, you go, no, it's great. And you forget that the first time you heard it, you didn't like it. Or that, like, for your first two workshops, audiences were like, muted on it. But now you've known it for. For four years, so you want to keep it. So, yeah, like, I think I having years long workshops and readings and Labs is ultimately bad. And I hope. I. Some of you. I hope that productions start, like, you know, shrinking it a bit, because it should not take you eight years to write a musical. It just shouldn't.
- [60:53]
B
Well, my. And my husband, who's my producer partner on these things, he used to be a high school English teacher. And he sometimes is really good about just calling stuff out. Like, I overthink things sometimes. And he's like, sean, that wasn't good, right? I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right. It wasn't good. Like, I can convince myself that a terrible show is good just because I used. I'm a lawyer and like, that. I was a. I was a trial lawyer, too, so I can. I can get. But my point is, he always asks these questions. He goes, at what point? Why didn't someone just say, this is not working. Let's just bag it? And I'm like. Cause you get 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 million in, and you can't turn to those investors and say, hey, we're not even gonna try. And that's the problem is that we spend so much money before it even comes to Broadway that, like, you can't. You can't bail. I mean, that's just. And so the thing. The response to that is either a, you just put things up quicker so you don't have such a big, like, weight on the show in terms of that, like, a $10 million, you know, like, weight around the ankle, or I know some other producers right now are coming up with some of these really interesting ideas of, like, having it more like a studio system where, like, you can develop a bunch of all at once. And then because you get a couple hits, you can then, like, say, you know, these aren't working. We're gonna cut them loose. Because, you know, I know you know this, but I'm not sure if all your listeners do. Like, every show is its own company. And not company as in, like. Like, a company of actors. I'm talking about, like, an llc. It's this. And so you can't be like, hey, whatever. Like, I'm. I'm running, you know, my dog Daisy the Musical, and that's not working. But don't worry, I'm working on Jessica the Musical, and that's gonna pay for Daisy the Musical, because they're all their own individual companies and with all different investing groups, even if there are a lot of overlap. And so I just think that's something we might start. I hope we start seeing. And I hear a lot behind the scenes from producers. Like, we need to cut down the long gestation and we also need to be more creative about how we develop shows so that we don't feel forced to. Because you take something like Queen of Versailles or something like that and you put it on Broadway and then it fails and you not, you know, whatever, it just lose all the spot. You can at least turn to your investors and say, we tried. You know, it's risky. You know, two and one in five, whatever, you know that you say all that and they go, at least we tried. Where what they should have done is before it got as half as expensive, they should have said, this is not working because it wasn't working in Boston from everything I've heard. And. But you can't anyway, so that if you're saying looking forward, I do think there's going to be hopefully some more streamlined production. And it was funny because I talked about the Lost Boys. It's not streamlined. It was very expensive. But like the idea that they had no out of town is really interesting. I think it actually helped it in a sense that people became a little bit more like took ownership in it. Hey, I saw that three and a half hour first preview. They've cut out 40 minutes, two songs and wrote a new one. There's kind of this like lore, like we talked about the fandoms. It's like my show because I saw it, you know, and that's exciting. And people on YouTube, I know, you know, I'm sure you saw some of them were like, I've been to eight of the previews and I can tell you all the changes, you know, that's a little obsessive to some people, but it's good marketing and people. And so I think hopefully we see more of that where shows. And the thing is, we need audiences to be like, previews aren't openings. And the thing was Michael Arden and the three James Carpinella, Marcus Chait and Patrick Wilson would come out in the early previews and say, hey guys, you're going to see a version of this you're never going to see again. And that was nice. And I just think maybe if you're going to do that, that doing coming out earlier and just saying, hey, we're making changes, we're basing it off your responses, hope you enjoy it. And I know the argument to that would say, well, they're charging.
- [64:31]
A
Yeah, they need to charge less for previews in order to get away with that mentality for audiences. They just do.
- [64:36]
B
But. But I know, and I think We're. We'll disagree on this, and your audience is going to hate me. But I mean, my. My whole theory is you base the prices on what people are willing to pay. And if they're willing to pay knowing it's a preview, and they're willing to pay $250 for an orchestra seat.
- [64:49]
A
But then the argument becomes, I think, Sean, that the problem is they're paying that money and they're not coming into it thinking it's a preview, no matter how what Patrick Wilson says.
- [64:57]
B
But I don't think if you dropped it to 90, they would. They would. The people who make a big scene about it would still make the big scene because they're doing it for.
- [65:04]
A
I think people would be a little more gracious if it cost less to see it in previews than post opening. Like, if there was a distinct price difference. And I'm not even talking about, like, interesting. Like, I actually, I think part of what got shocked such good will from audiences during previews was that they priced it so low at the beginning because they were saying, we're asking you to take a chance on a show. You don't know. We're going to continue making changes during previews. And so even people who weren't super into it, they're like, you know what? I'm like, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. And there became a big support for it. Like, I actually. I would argue that if Shucked had opened like a month earlier, I think it would have been a much bigger opponent at the Tonys that year. I think it. It opened just a little too close to the cutoff.
- [65:56]
B
When did it open? I don't remember.
- [65:57]
A
It opened April of 2023. And it. I think if they had opened in like, early March, like literally just a month earlier, I still think Kimberly Akimbo would have won because Kimberly Akimbo ultimately was the best show of that season. But Some Like It Hot became sort of its biggest opponent. And I think that Shucked could have have taken the place of Some Like It Hot as that main opponent had they opened just a little earlier. But I. I think that's an example of preview pricing helping a show's reputation as it continues to develop. Now, here's the thing. Lost Boys actually didn't charge super insane prices for previews.
- [66:30]
B
Correct. That's a good point. They really weren't. Yeah. And so that was helpful.
- [66:36]
A
Yeah. And I think there was still a lot of goodwill for Lost Boys during those previews for even people who didn't like it because they weren't paying a fortune. They weren't going out and saying, like, don't see this disaster. They were like, yeah, you know, it. I, it didn't work for me. But they're still in previews and they look at their ticket price and they go, yeah, it reflects that this is still in previews.
- [66:54]
B
So, you know, they cut out that post credit scene for a few nights.
- [66:58]
A
Yeah.
- [66:59]
B
And I wasn't in. So I saw a bunch of the workshops. I got all the videos. I. That was none of the workshop. That was a surprise. The first line of previews, no one knew they were going to do that. And so it was just, you know, it's one of those moments that makes no sense dramaturgically and, and, you know, why would she. But it was, it was something new. I think in theater, when something new happens, you're kind of like, everyone's like, oh, I don't know. Like, it's, it's, it's energetic. And I remember. So then it was like two weeks later into previews, they cut it for like three, four days because there was a feeling of like, some people were like, no, this is what it was because I asked the lead. Because I texted the lead producer and said, I'm not in New York right now. I've seen online that they cut the. I go, I'm sure you've got 30 investors texting you. I go, I trust your guys instincts. So whatever you guys is really. I trust Michael Arden's instinct. Whatever he believes is right, do it. But if you're asking for a vote, Paul and I think it should stay in even if it doesn't make sense. And they put it back in. And I asked them later and the reason was that they felt like there was so much goodwill with like the curtain call. And then what that did was that post credit, it kind of, it kind of brought it back dark again. And so they just were feeling. There was like an. A weird vibe. So they cut it for one, like, I think Thursday through Tuesday through Thursday or something in midweek. And they realized no, like, people were not. It was like actually even a weirder vibe without it. Like. And so what they. So then they put it back in and I mean, I'm not saying I, I could argue for an hour that it makes no sense and it's. It. But at the same time, I think it's one of those fun things.
- [68:30]
A
Yeah. That, you know, I mean, when something works for you, even if you can know. Know all the ways in which it makes no sense. You're like, I don't care. It works for me. And when something doesn't work for you, you, all you see are the ways it makes no sense. You know what I mean?
- [68:41]
B
100. Wow. That's a really good. Yeah, that's really true. I just like that energy of, like, everyone thinks it's over. And I. It blows my mind how many people don't know about some of these shows. Like, are you surprised that there's this? I mean, I don't know. I feel like if you're gonna spend that money and go to that show, you know, but most people aren't us. Most people aren't on the blog, you know, look, so.
- [68:56]
A
Sean, nobody is me. Okay? Nobody.
- [68:58]
B
Thank God, too. Thank God.
- [69:00]
A
Do you really want another one of this asshole on the world?
- [69:03]
B
No. No one is more grasshole. So, yeah, I think this next season is going to be really interesting. I think we're also about ready to see some of these shows close. That. Not in a bad way. Just they made a lot of money, they're on tour, they've done well. I'm sure their cast recordings are starting to make a profit. And it's almost like, let's let them breathe a little bit and let's open up some theaters.
- [69:26]
A
I think the thing that people are saying online that it's just not true. People. There's a fear that if these shows close, there's nothing in the wings waiting. And that's partly why theater owners and producers are allowing these shows to keep running, even though it's clearly run out of steam. I can't say too much because a lot of stuff has been said to me in very strict confidence, off the record. But I can just say that that's objectively not true. And in fact, I think as shows start to close in the fall and around New Year's, people will be surprised just how many shows have been waiting for a theater and are, like, itching to go. So just. That's all I'll say. And I think the one thing about this time, as these shows have been waiting, is that I'm hoping it allows producers and production team time to look at budgets and running costs and all these things to really kind of do their best. So when the shows come to Broadway, they are in the best. They have the best chances of financially succeeding. Cause it's a gamble and it's. Most of the time, it doesn't work anyway. But you can do your best to help your show out. And I think some like slimmer budgets and whatnot are in the works for some of these things. But that's all I want to say is that there are a few new musicals, some plays, a revival or two that they will be announcing between now and November. And I think people will be surprised just how many are.
- [70:49]
B
I mean, we're in some of them, like, we cut a check nine months ago and we're just waiting because we know it's just circling the airport just like a plane, just like waiting, waiting, waiting. And you're right. And obviously we can't talk about specifics, but there are some of these shows that are getting, you know, and I think when they, when they like announce Moulin Rouge, I think it's really interesting how it has not like taken off. Like the box office is way down. The idea normally is, now it's closing. You got two months that you can just make a few. Squeeze the last few bucks out of it, end on a high. And so I think maybe some of these other productions will look at that and go, hey, like, maybe it's not good to just let these things. Who was the one that did an interview and said, like, some of these shows are like the Walking Dead kind of. Like some of them. I think they're referring to some of the enslave. Like some of the people in Chicago. Just some of these shows that they're just going through the motions.
- [71:37]
A
Yeah.
- [71:37]
B
It wasn't my opinion, but I heard someone say that and I was like, you can kind of get the sense that some of these shows have just been around so long.
- [71:44]
A
Yeah.
- [71:44]
B
That they're not doing their show any favors either.
- [71:48]
A
Like, yeah, there's, there's. It's no secret that a lot people call Chicago a government job now. It's it. Which is its own loaded phrase at this point. But, you know, for. I know that the Weisslers did a lot of cleaning of house of that company, but I know. But there are also some people in it who have been in it for years. And yeah, like, you hear stories all the time of a random matinee when there's no major celebrity in it, of the cast kind of going through the motions because they know that half the audience are no out of towners, half of whom don't speak English, and they're kind of just there to be there. And there are times when the box office is really revved up with a certain celebrity. And it also so depends on the celebrity. When I saw sure. James Monsoon go in for Mama Morton first time, it was a genuine like fully SRO show again, but also people from the industry were coming back. Like RuPaul was there and a bunch of other celebrities were there.
- [72:40]
B
It felt like, it felt like a new show. Like, it just felt so fresh. I loved it.
- [72:44]
A
And it's. Again, it's not a, A, a comment on the talent of the cast or anything like that.
- [72:49]
B
No.
- [72:49]
A
But it also, it any show, it really affects the morale of the company when they're looking out night after night and they're seeing half empty houses or super lukewarm audiences. And yes, they're grateful for the paycheck, they're grateful for the chance to perform. But it, what I don't care who you are, it does something to you when eight times a week you're looking out and seeing rows of red, you know?
- [73:11]
B
Yes. Yeah. Yep, you're right. And, but so, yeah, that's, I think. And so a show that I really think I didn't mention in the episode that never existed, that I really wanted to make sure I did talk about was Todrick Calls Midnight. I don't know how much you hear. Heard about that. I know that clearly. Todrick Rodrick. I'm not going to be naive and just say, you know, he doesn't, there's not, I don't say baggage, but, you know, there's just a lot of people have opinions. Yeah. I think also when you're a gay black man, it's amazing how many people have opinions that other people that don't. I mean, you look at just how they've treated in la Cage Fall.
- [73:45]
A
Billy Porter.
- [73:46]
B
Yeah, Billy Porter. It's just, you know, and I just, it's just amazing. And you know, I'm not saying that a white straight man or a white straight woman don't also get treated unfairly in this industry. Yes. But I just feel like there's. My point is I've gotten to know Todrick and I really enjoy him. I think he's a theater kid at heart. I do think he's also insanely talented to the point where it's almost like, I mean, I think he'd admit it. He's got neurodivergent in the sense that he's just obsessed about the show. And we saw it in London. A good friend of mine who used to be a big time executive at Disney, one of the C Suite executives said, you need to go see this. And for them, who they see, you know, see sweet and dizzy, they've seen everything. Like, you know, they're like, this is special. Went and Saw it in London, blown away, one of the few shows Paul's ever cried at. And he turned to me, he's like. And so we put some money in and it's coming off Broadway. And I just really hope people will like. And the thing is that people's opinions is not based on anything they've ever personally. It's just all through rumors. I heard, I heard, I heard, I heard. Or like. And so I just. I really think this show has a chance to be. And I hate when people say, like, it's the next Wicked or the next, next Hamilton, but I think the quality of this show could be like, Hamilton level in the sense that it could be kind of a game changer. And I know that's setting a really high bar, but I just hope you're excited about it. I don't know if you know much about it or you've seen any workshops of it.
- [75:11]
A
I know very little about it. I have never seen a theatrical work of Todrick's on a writing side. I didn't see Burlesque in London. The one thing I've seen Todrick do live was I saw Todrick as Lola in Kinky Boots when my friend was. Was going on for the female lead at the time. And I will say Todrick was a wonderful Lola. One of my, My favorites that for a show that I don't care very much for. I did see it four times due to circumstances and I've seen a few different Lolas and Todrick was a great Lola. But, yeah, I think that everyone is allowed to have their opinion on whatever it is that they see. However, in order to have that opinion, they do indeed have to see it.
- [75:53]
B
Just.
- [75:53]
A
Yeah, it's my only prerequisite. It's just like you. You could. You cannot like it, but you do have to see it before you say boo about it.
- [76:04]
B
I like that. Yeah. It's amazing how many people have opinions on shows that haven't even opened yet.
- [76:07]
A
Oh, yeah. Well, one of my favorite lines in the title of the show is Hunter Bell. He makes a joke about Best Little Whorehouse goes public, and Jeff Bowen goes, I actually didn't see it. And Hunter Bell says, I didn't either. But I have opinions about shows I've never seen all the time.
- [76:23]
B
I mean, listen, I have opinions on shows I've gotten workshop videos of, which isn't fair, but I mean, I think you can kind of get. If you do enough, you can get a good sense of, like, what you know is there, there, there.
- [76:32]
A
You know, I give Opinions on. On what I've been exposed to. Like, there are shows I haven't seen, but I've heard the scores, and I just don't like the scores or, you know, I didn't see the show, but I saw their Tony performance, and I just. That didn't do it for me. I make jokes about it should have been you all the time. A show that I've never seen, but just. It was more just that every piece of content that was fed to me kept hitting home over and over again, how much I wasn't liking what I was seeing with a cast of people who I love. So that was really frustrating for me.
- [76:59]
B
It's funny. Yeah. So, yeah, I just, you know, I think. I mean, we know, like, I think Paddington's gonna be huge. I think warriors is gonna be huge. I think Evita's gonna be really big. I'm really interested to see how that is received. I could see it being huge.
- [77:10]
A
And Ray's officially locked in for a year, right?
- [77:13]
B
52 weeks. Yep. And I think seven days. So we'll see who's taking over that eighth show. But I mean. And we'll see. I think someone made a decent point to me. They're like. They think that Rachel. Because they did that in London, too, she's very supportive of whoever is doing that eighth, and she hypes them up, too, where maybe some of these other performances in the last couple years where they had, like, someone come in for the eighth performance, the lead wasn't quite as. They weren't negative, but they weren't, like, saying, like, you gotta see this person, too. They're incredible. They're just, you know. And so I think she's just so. She's like a theater kid, too. Not like she is a theater kid. And I think that she's just excited to be a part of something. I just am interested to see because I know there's more baggage here around her than there is in London. But I don't think that matters if the show's good.
- [78:00]
A
I think that if Becky Shaw was Alden Ehrenreich's mame, I think Evita is Rachel Zegler's mame. You know what I mean? Of just.
- [78:08]
B
I love it.
- [78:08]
A
Yeah. Of just.
- [78:09]
B
Yeah.
- [78:10]
A
Hollywood kind of kicked her ass for a bit, and she learned in a very public, brutal way that you. You can't fight the Internet. And also out being outspoken in general is very choppy waters to navigate in the world. But especially if you're a woman or if you're a Woman of color. If you're a woman of color who is pure theater kid energy, just the Internet is, is not easy on that. And so I think she's learned how to step back from time to time. But also in a lot of ways, Evita is such small potatoes to the Internet trolls that can go for the Snow White remake. You know what I mean? I mean, they, they tried really hard in London, the number of alt right incels with YouTube accounts who tried to fake news that Evita wasn't selling any tickets. And like, they would make these AI generated photos of Rachel Zegler crying be like, come see my show. No one's buying tickets, tickets. And I'm just sitting there going, like, I could comment on these, but I don't want to add to these content farms. But just like the proof is in the pudding, it. All you have to do is just go on the Evita website and see that it's sold out like the entire run. All I have to go do is go on TikTok and see 10,000 people standing out on the street just to her sing one song.
- [79:29]
B
And it was killing me too, because it was our first show we did and I was getting the weekly box office and I'm like, this is incredible box like you guys. But like, I be like, you know, yeah, let this work speak for itself. And it's so funny. I'm writing down these things to tell it, talk about off air, because there's some stuff about some shows.
- [79:46]
A
I think the last thing I'll say about this, and then we got to start wrapping things up, is, and I hope that she feels this as well. They always say, like, the best revenge isn't getting even, it's just doing well, you know, and with Evita, I think the fact that Rachel was so not chronically online during that run and, and, and even with haters being hateful, she had nothing to prove because, you know, she was too busy being a fucking smash in London. She was too busy maintaining her health so she could keep doing the show for 2,200 people a night, standing and cheering till they were hoarse and winning a goddamn Olivier. Like, she was simply too busy living her life.
- [80:28]
B
And I think that. I don't think it helped the Disney and some of these other movie studios and stuff didn't back her. And if anything, they. I feel like they kind of sabotaged her a little bit.
- [80:36]
A
Yeah.
- [80:38]
B
But the Broadway. I feel like the theater community is like, come here. Like, we'll take you.
- [80:42]
A
There's always so much money on the line. And so with studios in their mind, they looked at it as like, oh, well, she's the problem, but we can protect the brand and maybe that'll save the movie. Whereas on Broadway it's like, no, no, no, she is the brand. We, we have to support her because she is the reason this exists. And which is not to say like, I'm not trying to be super cynical about it all, but you do have always have to have like a Scotia cynicism about this stuff because, because no one's like always doing this for the greater good of the earth. But. Yeah, but I think the positive that is that slight cynicism about producers for Broadway with the brand is that that ultimately benefits someone like Rachel of, you know, she may fall sometimes, but because she is at the focal point of these productions, they, she, they have to support her and help her bounce back from any missteps that she might have. But also I do think by having her interactions with online culture through Snow White and through Hunger Games, I don't know, she's gotta have had a harder PR edge now. And I think she's going to go on an all time run. With the Broadway run of Evita. I feel like amazing as London was, I just have this feeling that Broadway's going to be a really big fucking thing for her with this one.
- [82:03]
B
100%. And yeah, and, and just I think there's a lot. What's exciting about next season is there's a lot of big events Evita, you know, talked about already. But there's a lot of also little ones that are creeping in that like the heart Midnight Benjamin Button, like these ones. Just keep an eye on those too. Like they're, it's, it's shaping up to be a really like a full color, like the, a picture painted all, you know, and I, I think we're in for some great stuff.
- [82:27]
A
Yeah. For all the shows, shows that Sean was implying earlier have no designs for Broadway. Keep in mind there are still off Broadway shows fully with designs on Broadway, 100%.
- [82:39]
B
But I do know like both Benjamin Button and the Hart are have. This was part of their. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right.
- [82:47]
A
I don't think that's spilling tea. Everyone saw those announcements and they went, we understand what's going on. You're testing the waters with off Broadway and should it work, Broadway would be a lovely second act. And if it doesn't work, there's no harm, no foul. Like it's all.
- [83:02]
B
And back to what you said. A lot of Them I know for a fact would have taken a Broadway theater if there's one available.
- [83:06]
A
Yeah.
- [83:07]
B
So it's also like they just couldn't and they don't want to sit and let it just sit anyway.
- [83:11]
A
Yeah. So, yeah, the worst thing you can do is just sort of sit around and wait for the perfect opportunity you have to keep making opportunities to keep the show relevant, to keep it current.
- [83:19]
B
That's right.
- [83:19]
A
Yeah.
- [83:20]
B
You're so smart. You're so smart.
- [83:21]
A
Oh, my God.
- [83:22]
B
Oh, my God.
- [83:24]
A
All right, last thing you would like to tell our dear listeners before we sign off this evening because I gotta. I gotta run to the editing room and not edit a second of this.
- [83:34]
B
Oh, yeah, good. I didn't say anything bad to him, so I would. I just. I really want to just point out, like I have said before with Cats, like, there's so many people who are really excited for it and were behind it and really loved it. So, like, you know, not just people who loved it off Broadway, but loved it, loved. Were impressed by how they transferred it. Really need to go support it. You can see by, you know, the box office is not terrible. It's not great. It's just doing fine. But I just think we to need to show Broadway producers and Broadway audiences that we will support shows that are primarily cast and created by people of color, queer, non binary performers. These things are looked at by some investors in the future and go, well, you know what? Cats got the best reviews of the season. It couldn't win the Tony and, you know, didn't take off, so why would I invest into something similar in the future? So I just think not just Cats, but stuff like that, that you can't just go online and say, I'm really excited this is here. Like, you know, you have to go support some of these things because that's the stuff that people look at when they look to invest in the.
- [84:29]
A
It's a capitalist. It's a capitalist society, everybody. And unfortunately, if you really want to make a difference, it is your wallet that makes the difference, not your post on Twitter or Instagram.
- [84:39]
B
It's like people who repost stuff every November for the election, but then they forget to vote. It's like, oh, I'm glad you reposted that meme, but you need to also go to the box. The other thing, don't sleep on. And I know, I'm waiting for your review. The heated rivalry parody musical Parody, I think is one of the best shows off Broadway right now. I think the New Yorkers said it best when they said this is like. Like, it's an incredible musical. No caveats. Because everyone says. Because it's. It's. It's a parody. But it's better than a parody. It's like, it's just a great musical. It's written really smart. And what they do, I think Jimin and Jay and just that whole team is really, really great. It's expanding. We're going to London at the end of the summer. We're going to Canada next month. So it's just kind of cool. It's really fun to see a show. Like, that's just great. You know what I mean? Like, it's small off Broadway, but it's just really high quality.
- [85:29]
A
Well, I guess we'll just have to wait till my review next week to get the official.
- [85:33]
B
Oh, you're gonna tank it. You're gonna tank it. Yeah, and
- [85:39]
A
I like making you dance, Sean. That's all.
- [85:42]
B
Thank you. Yeah, and I guess that's. I should have written more down, but I think those are the biggest things I'd say is to be. Be. Oh, God, here we go. Be the person you want the world to see in the world. But, like, you know, like, it's so easy to wrap up in this, like, negative stuff online and kind of engage in it. Engage with it too. But I just really hope we could rise above it because I do think it does turn some people off. And I think the last thing we need, no matter what the show, is we need to be attacking shows.
- [86:07]
A
Yeah. And listen, I know that it's a. It's a very difficult time financially for a lot of people, and theater is expensive to see. So I. All I'll say is that it's why I'm always very mindful of when I'm reviewing stuff. Of. Not only am I mindful of the people who made it, but I'm mindful of the people who are interested in seeing it. I don't want to make people waste their time or their money because I was being too soft on a show. Or maybe they miss out on a show that they could love because I was too harsh on it. I try to be very mindful of all those things. But also, yeah, I think that there's benefit to maybe for any listeners out there who are of the, like, Lost Boys ilk of. They see it nine times, they see the seven times in previews, and every time there's an understudy. Love the support of that. I would really love it if you took some of your budget from that and applied that to a show you haven't seen yet that maybe you're not sure if you would like or not. God forbid you end up loving it and it expands your mind of what you thought theater could do. That's all.
- [87:09]
B
Yes. And conversely, and of course, like, I'm in Lost Boys, it's one of my favorite shows. But like, also, don't take your fandom for one show and use it as a reason to hate something else and try to like and like, take Glee in a show that is struggling because it might be competition. Like all these shows. I mean, right. I know we hate it because it's like an old conservative Reagan thing. Rising Tide lifts all ships, but it does on Broadway. And so if we can get. If like Lost Boys, successful as War, is as successful as Paddington, everything else tends to. Also because people want to see more than just one. Just. I just would love. And I'm not to target. It's nothing to do with you and people who, who are professional critics with thoughtful. That is necessary for this industry. I'm saying there's some people out there who are just, they seem like it's their, it's their focus to just tear shows and people apart and we just don't need that right now. Like, this industry is under attack and these people are under attack. We're both white men and we're like the, in the best position, you know, but we still feel it. And I just, you know, and I just, I see people attack people in this community.
- [88:10]
A
It's like that Kevin, what's his face? Who's got the youtuber or tick tock or whatever. It's a Kevin lynch, the guy who, like, who tried to sue Wicked for racism. And, and yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [88:22]
B
I don't, I remember that.
- [88:23]
A
That's where I'm like, you don't like theater. You probably liked it at one point. You don't like it anymore. I don't know what it is you're doing. I don't know if you feel like that everybody wronged you in, in the industry or what, but like in no way are you doing anything to make it. And, and, and I think he knows that. I think he's just, you know, lashing out at this point. But there are people like him. He's not alone. There are many people like him where it's sort of like you're taking out your frustrations and your, and your resentment out on, you know, people who are just trying to make something. And I don't. It's Not a. Making a bad show is not a crime. It's it. It's unfortunate. I will say, I would argue making a lazy show is more of a crime than a bad show. Show. I feel. Amen. Yeah, I feel more like my time is wasted by a lazy show than a bad one.
- [89:09]
B
It's like, it's like, you know, you have your, your, Your partner makes you dinner. It's, you know, they try and it doesn't work. It's great versus just like phoning it in.
- [89:16]
A
Right. And so it's just that they forgot you're definitely allergic to almonds. Sean, it's not their fault. Cut them some slack.
- [89:23]
B
So, yeah, I mean, I just think stay positive. Watch out for some of the Reddit and message boards. Like, most of the stuff they say is not right. It's so hard. I'm sure you know it too. You know the true story and you read it and you're like, oh, my God.
- [89:33]
A
Yeah, well. And just without giving too much away from one of us, Sean and I have had conversations about, like, the quote unquote drama that shows have had posted about them online this season, and both of us knowing a lot of, like, the true stories going, yeah, the. The real story is like a hundredth as interesting as what that person just wrote.
- [89:52]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And, and so, okay, yeah, I think I've pitched everything. I mean, you've got such a huge audience. If I miss something, it's going to tank my. I don't know, just go see Rocky Horror and it's. It just switch to commercial. It was all roundabout and last week. Now it's being run by the Dodgers and it's in commercial run. It's doing great.
- [90:09]
A
You better believe it's commercial, baby. Now that Sheri Renee Scott is on board.
- [90:12]
B
Thank God. I haven't heard you talk about her in a while, so I'm so happy she's there for you.
- [90:17]
A
It is the moment. And I'm excited to see some of the other casting changes that that show will eventually have over the summer because I know not everyone's going to stick out till the run date. But also, I mean, it's an open secret that Rocky Horror is planning to run a while longer than its current announced extension. Nothing is said.
- [90:38]
B
I would never doubt Sam Pinkleton's ability to do smart casting.
- [90:42]
A
Sure. I feel that. I feel that. Sean, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [90:49]
B
At the Palace Theater. No, Instagram. Sean Nyberg. All one word. Sean. S E A N N Y, B, E, R, G. Usual spelling. I still get. Can I just ask you about that? Why do you. Is that just like something you started or. Koplik. Is there other ways to say Matt Koplik or spell it?
- [91:06]
A
Oh, I've always thought this. People will spell it wrong all the time. That's. Somebody wrote me once on an ask me anything like, why do you say usual spelling? Koplik's not a usual name. And I, and I said, yeah, that I find. I think that's funny.
- [91:17]
B
Oh, I do too. I love it. But I just didn't know if maybe I missed something.
- [91:20]
A
Yeah, no, it's funny. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a common phrase and I don't know, it's become repetitive and I just. And I like it. But you know, people have sold Coplick C, U, L, P, L, I, C, K, O, P, L, I, C, K, K, you know, K, L, I, C. And so. And listen, it's an Albanian name, so that's weird for people. But yeah, I don't know. That's just it. Usual. Usual spelling. That's all. Matt Koplik. Usual spelling on Instagram at Matt Koplik. If you like this podcast, guys, make sure to give us a nice 5 star rating or review review on Apple Podcast. Rating on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. You know, these, these episodes require a lot of work, as I said. You know, Sean and I recorded this originally two days ago and then everything fucked me over sideways and like rushed to get this together now. And. And I'm gonna be doing some light treatment on this until probably like right before this thing goes live. So, yeah, you know, I, I try to do my best for you all and I love that you reciprocate that for me. And your reviews are always amazing, all of you. And it's been a minute since we've heard the lightning of the Piazza Overture and we will have have that heard soon enough via a deep dive, but I'd like to hear it again for review. And stay tuned for some more episodes. My review of heated rivalry and some fun updates on the podcast and where we plan to go towards the end of the summer and how you all can help. So that's it, Sean, as you know, we close out every episode with the diva. Who are you closing out with, Ger?
- [92:50]
B
So I would, if you remember right, I did Patti LuPone when we did the episode that. And I was thinking, I was like, you know what I would like to do, Keep it a little bit more current in terms of next season. Oh, I would love to hear Victoria Hamilton Barrett in pretty little dead. Do I get a. I don't. Normally don't get a. To request a song, but if you
- [93:08]
A
can request the song.
- [93:09]
B
Yeah, I would. I would love that. I think it's. It's a nice villain song, and I think we're back to the days where these family shows actually have actual villains.
- [93:16]
A
Yes. They're not misunderstood generational trauma.
- [93:19]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So I love her. And. And, yeah, so that's my request. Thank you so much for having me. And thanks for all you do.
- [93:25]
A
Oh, my. Thank you, Sean. Thank you so much, everybody. We will see you for the next episode with heated rivalry, the unauthorized musical par. Authorized review. That'll be it for now. Take it away, Victoria.
- [93:37]
B
Bye, pretty little dead bear. Nobody can hide I'll make it an
- [93:44]
A
exhibit but first I need to kill
- [93:46]
B
it Then fill it I'll quit from all the height Till it's a little what it was born to be.