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Broadway Breakdown
Matt's Play and Chad Beguelin's Book (w/ Tony Nominee Chad Beguelin)
01:53:47
An Announcement and a Discussion
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I have written a play. Mr. Jaffe. What an average conductor's day. Mr. Jaffe.
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It's all about life on a train. I call it Life on a Train. I put it down just as it happened. All the things I've seen. Well, hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And this is the two parter that we promised you last week. Now, I did say that this episode was going to come out on Friday and in case you haven't noticed, it is Sunday and we are releasing it. I'm actually recording this Sunday morning so we can release it later today. A lot of reasons for that. The short of it is just a couple of things were not ready in terms of me announcing them in terms of me giving information, which I'm about to give. So I had to wait till everything else was sort of in place and ready to go. As one of my collaborators likes to say, I'm not a fan of doing things fast, I'm a fan of doing things correctly. And he's absolutely right. And this is one of those cases. So I had to push it another two days so things could be ready. That is to say, we have some announcements to make and we have some things to discuss. First things first, the second half of this episode, as you can tell from the title, is an interview with six time Tony nominee Chad Beglin. And it's a wonderful interview. Chad has written a book, his first called Showmance and it's a queer love Story. It's got a lot of Broadway trivia in there. It's a good, fun read. I really enjoyed it and I loved talking to Chad about it. So if you don't want to hear this stuff, the Matt's play stuff, then flash forward. I would probably venture to saying 20 minutes, maybe 25 minutes. We'll just skip ahead a little bit and then you will get to that part. And I say that because we also have some reviews to talk about. We got a new two star review that was titled Too Much Housekeeping. So let's give that a quick reading. Play the Light of the Piazza Overture, two stars. Too Much Housekeeping. What percentage of your podcast must we listen to you talk about your podcast on your podcast before you talk about the subject of. About what? The subject of the episode. Sorry, let me read that again. What percentage of your podcast. Must we listen to you talk about your podcast on your podcast before you talk about what the subject of the episode, I'm assuming they're meant to say of what the episode is. It's too much. Every time I try to listen, I end up stopping and deleting. Okay, I'm sorry about that. You can always hit the skip button. That's referring, I guess to last week's episode with the Broadway grosses where I did some housekeeping, literally said housekeeping. So the person who wrote that title about there being too much housekeeping, I don't think that's something I do very often. I think that was a more recent occurrence, at least in my brain. But yeah, you can always skip ahead. Or if you don't like it, we can just move on. I did also get a lovely email from Broadway Podcast Network because they had gotten an email through their website about Zip Podcast and I would like to share that please, because it was very nice, even if it wasn't a public five star review. But this was a message written to BPN about me. So we'll play the Piazza Overture as well for this one. Hello. Just a quick note to say that I recently got turned on to Broadway Breakdown and I'm loving it. I'm a potential Broadway investor and I especially appreciated Matt's recent breakdown of the Broadway grosses. Very educational and super interesting. Keep up the great work. Thank you so much. Those are our reviews, so make sure to give a review if you would like. Obviously it doesn't have to be five stars. People can give any rating they want, but we appreciate five star reviews and five star ratings. It always helps with the algorithm. Any other things I should mention? The reviews Chad will be in the second half of this episode. We've seen a couple of shows lately that we will do a bonus episode for. We will be discussing in a review episode, Yellowface, which I just saw at Roundabout last night. The Big Gay Jamboree, which I saw a few days ago, as well as the Jeanine Tesori opera at the Met. So those will all be discussed later. But let's get into some more meat, shall we? Because the first half of this episode is about my play. Yes, yes, yes. Something that I've been hinting at for a while now and I can finally talk to you guys about it because some cool things are happening. I don't really know how to get into all of this, so I'm just gonna jump right in and why we're talking about my play today because there's a reason why this announcement is happening. My play is called Yours Truly, with a little comma in between the Yours and the Truly, and it is having an official reading Saturday, November 16th. It is being done as a live stream in conjunction with Filmed Development, which is a branch of the Mill Iron Media Group. Those of you who have seen some of my online content of the podcast of like, you know me, videos of me doing the podcast on Instagram, and you see me in really cool studios that is with the Mill Iron Studios. My friend Tyler Milliron owns that studio and has had a lot of amazing success with his production company there. He's filmed movies and pilots and other podcasts and music videos and photo shoots. He recently did a whole bunch of music videos for Tony nominee Brendan Victor Dixon. He's done a lot of work with a company called Streaming Musicals and Streaming Musicals is the company that has asked to livestream the reading of my play, Yours Truly. All new works have readings and workshops, and my play has had a couple of informal readings over the last year and a half. It has now gotten to the point where we can't really do any more of those. We have improved Yours Truly as much as we can. There is a next step we now have to take to get closer to the idea of what we're trying to do with it, to see exactly what it is that we have. And with this opportunity, we can now actually make it a much more public presentation, which is scary. But if I've learned anything from my time researching all these shows and movies for my own podcasts and going to readings and workshops, you kind of have to say yes to the opportunities that come your way until you can be one of those people that create opportunities for others. And we were given this opportunity to do this reading on the contingency that it be a livestream, that it be a filmed live stream, and we are going for it. So we spent all summer really like ruthlessly working through the script and doing a couple more informal readings with friends and co workers to make sure that it's as close to what we want as possible before we put it on its feet in a very public manner. As I said, it is going to be publicly viewable by all of you guys. On November 16th, you can subscribe to the Streaming Musicals YouTube channel where it will be broadcast and will be made available for a while. After that, it will eventually come down. Not it won't be up forever. It won't be up for like just 24 hours. It'll be up for A little bit. And then once it's down, we're going to be using footage of that to put together a sort of sizzle reel that we will send out to producers and agents and theater companies and whatnot. Because we've had a lot of interest about the play. But I don't know if you guys realize this. A lot of people in this industry, theater, film, tv, they don't love to read scripts, they would love to go to readings, they love to go to workshops, they like to watch stuff. But reading is a little more typical. So we're sort of cutting the middleman and saying, hey, why don't you watch what we've done? You don't have to spend all this time reading it. You can just watch it. The reason I'm telling you this is because we have started a fundraiser for the project. We do not have investors on this yet. We have a team, we have a production company that's working with us to make this happen. But the production company doesn't give us money to do this. They give us their time, they give us their resources, they give us the platform to do this. The director, Matt DeCarlo and I have been collaborating on this for about a year and a half. And while we have found success in our fields, me with podcasting and writing, he with directing. Matt has been Alex Timbers right hand man for the last few years and built his way up from stage management, production management, to assistant director, associate director, resident director. He currently is responsible for all of the productions of Moulin Rouge around the world. And just he's very much on the rise. He's about to direct Legally Blonde at the Kennedy center next year. I'm very excited for where his career is going and I'm very honored that he has chosen to continue working with me and believes in me and believes in this play. And I'll talk more about the play in just a second. But this is to say we are doing a fundraising scenario for this live stream. We are looking to friends, family and those who believe in us to help raise the funds we need to make this happen. It's going to be a SAG non commercial contract, micro budget contract. You know, we're not charging admission for people to watch this live stream. We're not going to shrink wrap it as a movie and then sell it to Apple or anything like that. This is purely for development. And for a SAG contract, the most money you are allowed to raise is $20,000, which sounds like a lot, but really isn't. So we have a Link in this episode description that goes to the fundraising page that gives you more sense of what this is better than I could be explaining it right now, trust me. But also will send you to a pitch deck for the play, yours truly, of what it's about and why we like it. Gives you a sense of the. The tone, of the style, of the humor, and hopefully gets you excited about it. So let me tell you about the play and let me channel my bde, which is a very uncomfortable suit for me to try on. So give me a second as I take a breath and channel said energy. So I started writing yours truly in December of 2022. I wrote it sort of like in a very quick hurry that December. From there, I started to shape it, I started to cut things, I started to move things around. And now here we are. The play. The way the Scream movies are to horror movies, my play is to romantic comedies. It is characters who are. Who love and deconstruct a genre. So in my play, that's romantic comedies, while the main story plays out like a romantic comedy. And it started that way and sorry, it has stayed that way because ultimately, when I was writing it, I was trying to understand what it was I was going through. And something that was noticeable to me was as I was in my situationship, I had one friend who was a heterosexual woman who had just gotten married and another friend who's a heterosexual woman who is about to get engaged. And both women married wonderful men, but both of them had sort of tricky starts to their relationships with these gentlemen.
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And.
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And we all laugh about it now. I was like, it's only funny, really, because they ended up together because they got married. If they hadn't, these would be. These guys would be Persona non grata. And I had another friend who was getting married. And their origin story wasn't terrible, but they had, like, a really bad year in the middle of their relationship prior to getting engaged. And it's a year that, like, none of us talk about anymore. And I'm sitting here going, all of them have had moments in their relationships, whether it's the origin or the middle part that's, like, dramatic and not helpful, but because they ended up with their person, because it led to matrimony, a lot of my friends are sort of like, well, you know, we just sort of think of it as part of their journey to this moment. We don't talk about the bad stuff. We don't talk about Bruno. And I thought that was very interesting. And it led me to ask the question first you know, what makes a love story romantic, what makes rom coms compelling, why do we like them so much? And what is it that they're even telling us? And how is it applicable to real life in any way? And especially when you realize that all rom coms are heteronormative, often they file into certain categories of traditional values. Right. You know, you can really only have extramarital sex with the person you're with if it ends in matrimony. So in something like Four Weddings and a Funeral, yes, Andie MacDowell is sexually promiscuous, but we only see her be promiscuous with Hugh Grant. And that's okay because they end up together at the end of the movie, things like that. And all of these things are just sort of wrapping around in my head. So the play itself, and I'm not going to tell you how much of it is truth because over the last year and a half there have been developments with it where I've incorporated things from stories that have happened to friends of mine to family members. So there is a lot of truth in it. Not all of the play is about me. There are pillars of it that specifically happened to me. But I will not specify which parts of the story are me specifically. You can guess for yourself. So the play itself is about a 30 year old gay man living in New York named John, who lives with his mother. I think we can all agree that part is me. And John meets a man named Owen. Owen is three, four years older than John. They're both, they're both in their 30s, John in his very early 30s, Owen in his mid-30s. And they connect pretty immediately. Owen has not been very forthcoming about himself and about his life specifically. Owen is bisexual, or at least he believes he is bisexual. And there's a lot about what's going on with Owen that he hasn't told Jon. And he will tell John pieces of information to sort of get John comfortable with it. Right. It's like that Handmaid's Tale quote about you got used to Gilead because you're in a tub of water and it's getting slowly warmer until you realize you're getting boiled alive. It's that thing where you get slowly more used to the information until you realize like, oh shit, I'm in so deep. And yet John keeps sticking around because at the core of it, he and Owen are very much in love. And like a rom com, John has two best friends. Anna, a recently married straight girl, Kennedy, a very independent gay man. And they do fall into the tropes of the best friends. Kennedy is outspoken. Kennedy is sexually promiscuous. But Kennedy also has a softer side to him that is empathetic. He's a good friend. He's supportive. Anna, she is very much an ally. But Anna also kind of has secretly traditional values. We talk about movies, right? Movies are a major part of this play because Anna, Kennedy and John are big movie buffs. It's sort of what connects their friendship. And John is very big on romantic comedies. Kennedy is very big on horror movies, and Anna is very big on Jane Austen movies. Anna doesn't like the rom coms that John likes. She doesn't like Sleepless in Seattle. She doesn't like Pretty Woman, you've Got Mail, When Harry Met Sally, or, you know, how to lose a guy in 10 days. She finds them toxic. She's like, these are about messy people who make bad choices. And because they're all pretty and live in pretty apartments and. And because they end up together, we all go, oh, how romantic. Like, Anna hates the grand gesture. She hates the meet cute. Anna likes the movie versions of Jane Austen novels. She'll say, I love Jane Austen. She goes, well, the movies, I've actually never read the books. But what she loves about those stories is they are ultimately very traditional and very intelligent. It's characters who tend to lead with their head and let their heart follow eventually. It is a way for Anna to sort of secretly say, like, I don't approve of. When people lead with their hormones, they tend to make bad decisions. And that's a little her side eyeing. John Kennedy likes horror movies because in his way, they are survival guides. And he admits this is not a way to fall in love or like, lead the most romantic life, but it's a way to make it through the movie. We had a reading a while back that Natalie Walker played Anna in. Natalie Walker, if you don't know, wonderful actress. She has been on the podcast once, like many, many years ago. She's currently in the big Gay jamboree, which she's phenomenal in. And we were talking about the Anna Kennedy, John dynamic. And the reason why Kennedy and Anna connect John and why he connects to them is Anna understands John's wants, his goals, he wants to be with somebody. He wants a love. He wants romance. But Kennedy understands John's journey. They are gay men. And he understands the obstacles. I guess you could say that he goes through all the time, whether they're really major headline obstacles or like microaggression obstacles throughout the day. Something that Anna can't understand, nor should she, in the same way that John and Kennedy can't understand Anna's life as a woman. But Anna does understand what John wants in life because it's ultimately what she has, because she's just gotten married and she's thinking about having kids. She is on the track to true adulthood. Kennedy on the track to adulthood in a different way. He has a job. He just bought an apartment. He is adulting. John is still kind of floundering. He's living with his mom, who is a character in the play as well. And she also kind of has the tropes of the wisecracking no filter parent in a rom com. But of course, that gets slipped on its head in Act 2 as well, because we learn more about what she's going through while all this is happening. John is just sort of trying to figure things out. And I. Part of reason why he keeps latching on to Owen is because Owen is also kind of secretly adulting. Owen is in a band which already you're like, oh, God, this fuckboy. But he's in a band that's like, kind of slowly starting to get successful. They have a following. They're getting a residency in New York for the next month and a half. They're recording another album, this time with an actual label. He's on the rise and he likes John. He loves John. And in a way, John is going, huh? This part of my life is starting to fall into place in a weird way. I have someone like, I have a romantic person, and their life is coming together. My life will come together. But through osmosis of him. The question is, after Owen has revealed a major truth bomb to John at the end of Acts 1, that ultimately is what separates them until their reunion in Act 2, can John trust Owen? Will Owen have the backbone to do what he needs to do if he wants to be with John? Because he says he wants to be with John. But at the same time, Owen is someone who wants equilibrium and he wants convenience. While Owen loves John, he can't deny that his life would be easier if he were with a woman. And that has nothing to do with bisexuality. That is actually nothing to do with Owen. That has to do with the world in which we live. If you're a straight couple, it's just easier. When you add a queer component to these stories of love that we watch all the time, things immediately get messier and more complicated. And that is ultimately what yours truly is exploring. It is, at its focal point, a queer romance. That explores sexual fluidity, millennial arrested development, heteronormativity and traditional values, as well as the impact of pop culture on our mind frames. It gives us these. Not tent poles, but, like, they give us these sort of ports to come back to to make sense of what's going on in our lives with us. Right. How many times have you heard me on the podcast say, like, oh, it's just like that thing in Sex and the City. It's just like that thing in that musical we're talking about. It's a play we're talking about. That's true of everybody. It's because the best movies, the best theater, ultimately, are stories that can help us understand ourselves, can help us understand the world. The original tagline we had for this play was, what makes a love story romantic? And then a friend and I were discussing this in the pitch deck, and she said, cut the romantic. Just what makes a love story? And then Tyler Milian of the Mill Iron Media Group that is filming and co producing this live stream said, how about what makes love a story? And I really love that tagline, what makes love a story? Not every romance is an epic tale for the ages, and in truth, you kind of don't want it to be. And that's something that John kind of realizes with his time with Owen. He doesn't break away. Exactly. But all of the things that make love a story are not necessarily what makes it healthy love. Why don't I. Actually, I'm going to go to the pitch deck for a quick second. The actual summary we have for yours truly is John and Owen are falling in love. And it's almost like a romantic comedy. Sweet, sexy, messy, painful. And despite what people around them advise, the two can't stay apart. It is a comedic drama that explores sexuality, heteronormativity, millennial, arrested development, all the things that I said earlier, looking to some of the most beloved films in our culture to answer the question, what makes love a story? When you watch it, you'll find ties to Scream, obviously, but also Torch Song trilogy, significant other, the Heidi Chronicles. We also say in the Pitch Deck that a lot of its presentational style is similar to love, valor, compassion. Scenes bleed in and out of each other like a movie. There's a lot of speed to yours truly. It goes quickly in between scenes. There's two different giant montages that happen. And also there are segments where characters break the fourth wall and talk to the audience. Every major character in the play has a monologue to the audience at some point. I also Have a note in our pitch packet about the play, why I wrote it, and what I like about it. I'll just say this here. I have not really found any stories on stage to be about a queer romance that is not tied in some way to trauma, politics, religion, or disease. I wanted to write this because I needed to write this. But then as it developed, it just became a play that I was eager to see on stage. Ultimately, yours truly is a good time. It is a romantic comedy until it is not. It is sort of like almost girly pop in a way, in terms of its bright colors and fun, quippy dialogue. Until you realize how the messiness of the story is overtaking the characters.
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And.
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And it's not just, you know, oh, we're shipping them. They can make it work. It's actual heartbreak. It's actual devastation in a way that's very human. It's not a grand political play. These are not characters who are dealing with physical violence. They're dealing with emotional violence. And I think that's something that not everyone will say is important, but everyone can understand it. Everyone has dealt with it. And I wanted to see that. I wanted to see a play that dealt with that kind of stuff that we all could relate to in a digestible way. And more importantly, I wanted a queer romance on stage. I wanted one that was fucking hot. John and Owen can't keep their hands off each other. And we see it in film sometimes. We saw it a little bit in red, white and royal blue. We see it in Heartstopper a bit. Heartstopper is focused on a queer romance. And from what I understand, the third season has a lot of fucking going on in it. So, you know that steaminess is coming, y'. All. But I wanted that for a play. I wanted a play that I could really, really just enjoy. And when it's over, maybe even see again. I don't feel like we've had that very often. We've had many wonderful plays and a few that I've seen twice, but I haven't seen a lot of theatergoers really amped up for a play lately. Oh, Mary is the only one that I can think of that everyone has genuinely been like, I gotta go see it. Second would be Stereophonic, which some people have been wary of just because it's so long. But I'm trying to think of the last time we had a play, and a queer play at that, where everyone was like, oh, that sounds fascinating. That sounds watchable, and it sounds like something I want to see. I Want to enjoy myself and then have something to talk about and afterwards. And that's. Maybe we aren't there yet with this, but I think we're getting there. I think we're close. And I think that this will help us a great deal, this livestream filming. And I am asking you guys to be the first ones to help us reach our goal to $20,000. Now, I know that sounds like a lot of money, and it is, but I was crunching the numbers and looking at the last episode I dropped, the one about the Broadway grosses. If every single person who listened to that episode donated $17, we would have reached our budget of $20,000 by the fourth day of that episode dropping. I dropped it on a Thursday. We would have had the money by Monday. Now, not everyone can do $17. Some people can do 100. Some people can only do five. Some people can't donate at all. Some people don't want to donate. And that's totally okay. You don't have to. And I'm not just looking to the listeners of this podcast to help us raise the money. We are also going to go to friends. We are also going to go to family. I've been doing all this research for upcoming episodes for the south park movie, for American Psycho, and a lot of people, a lot of established people have had to reach out to those who know them, who like them, some even love them, and ask for help. You guys have invested in me. You have invested your time. Some of you have joined the Discord. There's a link. There should be a link to the Discord Channel this episode as well. And if you ever click the link and it says it's expired, please just message me on Instagram. I keep clicking to make the Discord links not expirable, but Discord seems to have decided against that. So I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing, and then they never follow through. But you follow the Discord. You follow the podcast, you follow me on Instagram. Clearly, you guys enjoy listening to me. Most of you do. And I'm asking you to, this time, officially invest in this project. At the very least. The good news is that all donations are tax deductible. So that's. That's awesome. And there's more information about that on the fundraising page, but this is where I have to put on my BDE suit. I know that what we have here is good. It's a good play. We've had too many people sit in on these readings and tell us that we are onto something and with each passing development say it's only gotten better. I mentioned Natalie Walker, Chelsea Williams, you know, legitimate Broadway actors and TV actors who do readings 30 times a year of new works. Not to mention we've had Mark Evans, who's about to be in Tammy Faye, Joe Carroll, who is in Cinderella and Frozen and once they both have played Owen E. Typensen, who's a friend of the Pod and was on Broadway in Bandsviz and Company. He has played Owen in Readings. PJ Adzuma from the Pod, who's in Book of Mormon, has played Owen, Charlie Franklin of Book of Mormon and Tina and Bridges of Madison County. We've also had Friend of the Pod Alex Weissman, who's currently in Chicago doing a Hand to God, Michael Judson Berry, who some of you might know on Instagram for his Moira Rose impressions. They've both played John, friend of the Pod. John Miscavige has played Kennedy before as well as Jason Kerr. Michelle Ragusa, who has been on Broadway in Titanic and I think also in Ragtime and she was in Flying Over Sunset. She's played mom in a few readings. We've also had Samantha Misle. We've had Dana Steingold. We've had Corey Mock, who's now on the road with Anne. Juliet was just on Broadway in Merrily We Roll Along. All of these people have been in on different developmental readings of the play. Allie Gordon, Podmother, Ali Gordon and everyone has been super, super into it all. Changes that I make from here on out come from putting it on its feet, from rehearsing it. We know it's good, we know it's really good and it's only going to get better with each development. This is the next step to get there because we have taken this as far as we can on our own and now we have to go the next legitimate step and I'm asking you guys to help us get there. We are going to hit our goal. I have confidence in that. I'm going to be asking my own friends and family. Matt will be asking his friends and family and the more once we have official names confirmed for this, they will help spread the word. But this is happening and I would love it if you guys helped us make this reality again. Just looking at the numbers from last week, Broadway Breakdown alone could reach that goal if everyone contributed $17. Not everyone can totally get it, but I don't know. Let's just fucking go because I'm ready, the play is ready and I think you guys are ready. So let's do it. All right. That's all I got to say about yours truly for now. Any other questions, please reach out to me. Check out the link in the episode description for the fundraising page to check out the pitch deck for yours truly. It's very exciting. I believe there's an option if you donate a certain amount and I'm like not talking $17, I'm talking like 500 or more. Because also based on how much money you donate, you can also get a producer credit on the piece. I think it's $1,000. If you donate a thousand dollars, you'll get a producer credit. Because this is a filmed reading, it will have an IMDb page and an IMDb credit that does not make it a movie. Think of it as like when Dustinland Black's play eight had a reading with George Clooney and all those Hollywood people that has an IMDb page. But it's not a movie. It's not a readily available movie. It was live streamed and was on a SAG contract. But it's not something you can purchase, I don't think so. That's what this is sort of like. But based on how much you donate, you can get a producer credit on the IMDb page. Sorry, my words are weird. Today you can get a producer credit on the IMDb page or, or you can even get a PDF of the script for yours truly. I think you have to sign an NDA before you read it in a password protected website. But yeah, all good stuff, all exciting stuff. So let's get to Chad Beglin. All right, Chad is a six time Tony nominee. He has worked on Aladdin, which is still running the Prom, which was made into a film, Elf, which was also made into a film and is coming back to Broadway this November with Gray Henson, the Wedding Singer. And he has a new book coming out called Showmance. So after this break, please stick around for my interview with Chad Beglin.
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Billy, I beg to differ with you.
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How do you mean? You're the top.
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Yeah, you're an Arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.
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You're the nimble tread of the Chad Beglin. Welcome to Broadway Breakdown.
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Thank you for having me.
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So we are here to discuss a book you've written called Showmance, A book that I very much read before this episode was recorded. What about me decide made you decide to write something so specifically to my tastes. Why did you write this Literary, literary crack for me?
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I just, you know, after stalking you for all these years, and going through your underwear drawer, I just kind of felt that it would sort of, you know, be something you would respond to. But, you know, I'm glad to know that it worked.
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Oh, absolutely. It's a queer story with a lot of the thematic plot points of queer YA novels. I don't know if, you know, like, obviously a Heartstopper, but also drama and the Great American Disaster, whatever that book that Tim Federell wrote, plus Broadway and all of the references that I love. So, like, you literally wrote 300 plus pages of, hey, Matt Copley, do you want to, like, stay inside all day and read a book and finish this book within 24 hours? Because that's exactly what you did.
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Well, my evil plan worked.
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Yes. So for anyone who hasn't read it yet, because it doesn't come out till October, I got a fancy copy because I'm a fancy person. What is the pitch of Showmance, your. Your new novel?
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Well, it's basically about a failed Broadway writer who gets talked into directing his flop show at his small, podunk, hometown community theater. And he so very reluctantly and begrudgingly, and all the people that he sort of wrote off as hicks in the cast start making improvements to his show, which comes out of left field for him. And also, because it's a queer rom com, he meets his high school nemesis, who is suddenly everywhere he goes and super hot and things get spicy.
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Yeah. And super sweet. Luke is a. Is a big old sweetheart.
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Absolutely. Yeah.
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And the. The musical he wrote is called Stage of Fools. It's a musical adaptation of King Lear set in space.
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Yes. And the future in space.
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Yes. Because. Because our protagonist, Noah Adams, is what's I'm looking for. He's very adventurous as a creative. He has very bold ideas.
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Yes. Very bad bold ideas.
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Yeah. This is the second time you had a. An endeavor that opens on the opening night of a disastrous musical.
- [36:07]
A
Yes. So the funny thing about this is the prom opens the same way. And I had written a few chapters of this book and then put it away and thought, that's a lot of work. I don't know if I'll ever finish it. And then we were working on the prom, and we had a completely different opening number where each of our Broadway actors was in a different show. So you saw the curtain calls from those three shows, and that was our opening number, and it was super confusing, and nobody understood what was going on. And so I said to Casey, Matt, and Bob, the, you know, Bob Martin and Matthews flower and Casey Nicholas. I said, you know, I Have this book that I'll probably never finish. So what if we did this? What if the show opens and closes and then they're out of work and so they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I suddenly got inspired to go back and start writing the book again, I thought, well, do I change that? Because I've already done that once. But then I figured, yeah, it's okay to steal from yourself.
- [37:08]
B
Absolutely. And it's a. It's a high. It's a high stakes theatrical situation environment, a lot of things going on. It's a great way to meet all of as many characters as we can meet. Noah meet his boyfriend slash agent Chase, which that's a very complicated relationship to have. Yes. And then Noah's best friend, what's her name? Yara. Yes, yes. Who she's described as looking like. She says she's been confused for Audra McDonald at the opening night party a few times. And Noah realizes that's her complimenting herself without actually complimenting herself.
- [37:46]
A
Yes. It's a humble brag.
- [37:48]
B
Exactly. About a backdoor brag, as the great Jenna Moroney once said.
- [37:52]
A
Yes, yes.
- [37:53]
B
It's hard for me to watch American Idol because I have perfect pitch. So how did the idea for this book kind of pop into your head? Are you someone who gets ideas, writes them down and comes to them later, or do you sort of sit down and like, elaborate for hours on end? Like, what's your process?
- [38:13]
A
I have. I'm very. After all these years, it's sort of. I have a sixth sense when it's going to hit me. Like, I sort of think about it and have ideas, and then it's almost like you. When you know you're going to throw up, but it's like, okay, now, right now, right now. So down and start working on it. And same thing with this. I sort of, you know, was playing around with the idea in my head and sort of thinking about it. Then I did a few chapters and then as I said, I put it away because I was like, that's a mountain. That's a lot. You know, when you write a play or a musical, you write five good jokes and you're done with the first scene and you're not even off the first page with five good jokes and a novel. So. But yeah, even, you know, with writing this, with writing songs, it's always this feeling of like, oh, now, now, it's coming now. So it doesn't always happen like that. Sometimes it's just sitting and banging your head against the computer.
- [39:04]
B
But, yeah, so for this one, where did. Where did the origin of the story kind of come from?
- [39:09]
A
It's. It's funny because I come from a place exactly like the hometown and, you know, was brought up in a community theater, exactly like the Plainview Players. And they sort of. The Noah Journey was my journey. They let me, at 15, 16, write my own shows and put them up, and they were, like, you know, thrilled and supportive. And so now, whenever I have a show on Broadway, they'll do a production of it and I'll come back and see it. And it's, you know, it's so heartwarming and sweet and, you know, first we went to see the first one, I was like, how is this gonna be? But it's just, you know, I. You know, ended up being a big old fucking crying mess because it was so touching. And so that's where it sort of came from. And I thought, you know, what if this guy, you know, gets talked into, like, dealing with these? Like I said, he considers them, you know, hicks and hayseeds, and. And then all of a sudden, they start having these really brilliant ideas and make the show better and also make Noah a better person.
- [40:17]
B
Yeah, I was actually going to ask that because it took me not. Not that long, but it took me maybe longer than I should have to realize, like, the flaws of Noah as a human being. And I don't know what that says about me that, like, for the first 80 or so pages, I was like, he's totally in the right. I don't know why everyone's getting mad at him. And then, like, five pages later, it's like, oh, like, he did overreact, or like he. Like, he was right to be angry, but he expressed his anger in a very mean way. So that's me. That's my problems. But when, like. So when you're crafting a character like Noah, who I assume, you know, you draw from yourself and people you know, but, like, do you explore his rough edges as you're writing, or do you kind of map him out separately and then start incorporating him into the. Into the story?
- [41:06]
A
No, I mean, it was sort of. Everything sort of happened at once. The funny thing was, this is why you and I could be friends. Because I kept hearing, why is Noah so unlikable? I'm like, what are you talking about? He's great. And my book agents, who helped me sort of whip it into shape before they set it out, they're like, he's awful. And I was like, what are you talking about? And they're like, you need to soften him. And I was like, give me an example. And, you know, at one point, when his friend Melissa, you know, they're talking about her being pregnant and will she be a good mother? And his response was, well, look on the bright side. You could always sell the baby for parts. And they're like, that. That. I was like, oh, okay. And when his mother says, you don't look Jewish to his boyfriend, slash agent, Noah said, thank you, Dr. Mengele. And they're like, again, maybe too much. So. So, yeah, there were definitely moments where I had to soften him. But his. I think his. His thing, his big thing was just his sort of. He, you know, went away and became this New York snob and looked down on everyone and sort of thought he was better. And that sort of gets really sort of examined, and he really has to take, you know, a hard look at himself.
- [42:25]
B
Yeah, well, so there's a lot of, you know how, like, when you're. You just, like, we find parallels between so much of what's going on in our lives with. Or whatever we're consuming. So as I read Showmance, I introduced my mother to Gilmore Girls. You know where this is going. But. So I was as. As she and I have been watching that show together. My third time overall, her first ever. And I'm watching Lorelai, and I'm watching also Lorelei's relationship with Emily. And so I saw a lot of Lorelai in Noah, but also a lot of Lorelai and Emily with Noah's relationship with his father. And I think maybe something you and I can understand is, like, humor, especially, like, sarcastic humor, is definitely a deflection to kind of pull people away from maybe, like, the more vulnerable, sensitive sides of ourselves. And other people look at that as sort of a hard exterior. But you and I recognize, like, the well of emotions that run underneath that. And also just people who miscommunicate through just lack of mutual love languages. So. And I like that you explore that with Noah and his father. But also there's a moment when someone in the show, I think it's one of the twins, she makes a note, but she's, like, very aggressive with the note. She, like, doesn't really have a great bedside manner about it. And Noah. Noah gets angry, which I think is fair. But of course, like, he blows up to the extent that it's a little scary. And so the next day, he comes back to the rehearsal room and he apologizes. But he also expresses, like, guys, this show was, like, very Much an embarrassment for me. And then like, if we're going to make suggestions like, like, just get better bedside manner. So I appreciated that you were like, acknowledged that he blew up. But also like, hey, like, you did also hurt my feelings. I was like, yes, Noah, stand up for the fact that this was yours. And people are like being a little aggressive about it.
- [44:13]
A
Yeah. I mean, I think it's again, what, you know, he has a conversation the night after the explosion with, with Luke and Luke is like, look, this is, I get it, it's hard. You, this is, you're very, this is your baby. And people are just knocking it so publicly, you know, it's got to be tough. But, you know, if you. And he's asking him, how do I get things back on track? And he's like, well, you, you've got to apologize. You've got to give one of those big epic speeches that you're like, you're good doing that. So that's what it's going to take.
- [44:49]
B
Yeah. And I think that it takes a lot of growth to acknowledge when you've done wrong or when, or when you do need to apologize to people. But also explaining like, where those blowups or that anger, those mistakes sort of came from. And it's those things that I feel like a lot of young writers don't like to do. They want their main characters to either be like, totally perfect and impenetrable, never make mistakes, or like, if there's a mistake, there's got to be three. A three page dissertation about, like, and here's why X, Y, Z was wrong. It's like, well, we're human beings and we, and we mess up. And that's sort of the tragicomedy of life. But I think that with Noah, why you and I are both like, he's not terrible. Why are you all being so mean to him? We recognize that. And yeah, like, there is a snobbishness about him that I didn't realize until halfway through the book. And maybe that's because I'm a born and bred New Yorker. So I was reading all of his stuff, being like, that's a sensible take to have about, you know, the rural countryside. And then 10 pages later I was like, oh, am I, am I a snob? Like, I get, I think I read a little too much of myself into Noah. And again, how dare you for dragging me so publicly in print form. But, but yeah, I, I just, I, I enjoyed reading that. And I think what I like about the, the Noah dad situation, how familiar Are you with Gilmore Girls?
- [46:19]
A
I've never seen it.
- [46:21]
B
Once again, hateful. It's. It's a hard show to recommend. It's a show where, like, it's 21 episodes a season, and I think five things happen all season long, like, each year. But there, every now and then, there's a really good moment. Like, Kelly Bishop is the grandma, Lauren Graham is Lorelei, and Kelly Bishop as the grandma. She's a wealthy woman of means and WASPy, and she loves her daughter. But to her, showing love is like buying you things and like, doing social engagements. And Lorelei is like, no, love is you. Knowing my pop culture references. And so they're always clashing. And with Noah and his father, you have this dynamic of, like, the dad taking a while to understand what it is his son needs from him to show his love. And acknowledging that will also mean, like, I. I can only go so far and no understanding, like, oh, right, I do have to meet you in the middle. Like, I can't just expect you to totally come over to my side, which is a very beautiful feeling. I think a lot of people who have complicated relationships with their parents wish that they could have this, like, fairy tale situation. Like, oh, the parent woke up from their emotional coma and said, I'm going to say all the things you need to hear, but again, that's not really human behavior. How did the Noah father relationship kind of evolve with this book?
- [47:49]
A
Well, it's kind of an amalgam of my stepfather and my father, both who are no longer with us. But my stepfather was the high school basketball coach, and I was in my room singing show tunes. So we did not get along at all. And it was very contentious. And in my late 20s, I get a call from him and he says, I've been doing a lot of thinking. And I realized that I treated you very poorly as a kid and you did not deserve that. And you treated me better than I, as an adult, treated you. And I was completely floored because this. He's a very man's man. He doesn't talk about emotions. We don't talk about that stuff. And he's just said, I'd like to apologize. And it was just so shocking. And then our relationship completely changed and we, you know, had this very great relationship. And he was very encouraging of my career and very welcoming of my husband Tom, and just, it was a mind blowing kind of thing. And then on my father's side, my dad had this thing where he could never say, I love you, or if he did, he would Say we love you. Like it was never. You couldn't get it out of him. And then I just sort of learned to realize, well, that's. That's all you get. And then he had fell, unfortunately, and had this head injury and he started. He was the exact opposite. He would start crying and being like, I love you so much. I'm like, whoa, whoa, this is over. Correcting now. I don't. We gotta find a happy medium. So it's sort of the two of them mixed up with, you know, a lot of fiction thrown on top of it. But, yeah, I wanted, you know, I know what it feels like to be like, can you not just say the three words, I love you? And it's like at the end, he realizes I can do it this way. And, yeah, you realize that that is enough. And that's all I'm going to get. And that's pretty major for him. And, you know, call. Call it a truce.
- [49:51]
B
Yeah, it's. It's. If you want someone to accept you for who you are, you have to accept them for who they are.
- [49:56]
A
And again, a lot of work.
- [49:59]
B
It is a lot of work. And I've only had one cup of coffee today, so, like, I'm not saying that I could ever do it. I'm telling other.
- [50:06]
A
Me neither.
- [50:07]
B
Yeah. What people do in shows is far more evolves than what I could ever do in my life.
- [50:13]
A
Exactly.
- [50:14]
B
Yeah. How did you. How did you get into writing shows? It. May I ask?
- [50:20]
A
Well, I. I did, you know, a bunch of shows with my community theater. And then I went to nyu and I was originally going for acting, which I was terrible at. And I took a. Just a random class in playwriting. And the teacher was like, you should be doing this. This is what you should be doing. And he convinced me to get a double major in dramatic writing. And that TA grew up to be Pulitzer Prize winner Doug Wright. So I really have him to thank because I was realizing that I was not a good actor. And I was like, so I still want to work in theater. Do I want to direct? What could I do? And he really steered me, you know, into that career. And then, you know, it's the same old thing. You write and send stuff out while you're bartending or your. I was temp and answering phones. And. And then finally, someday, a miracle happens and some small theater says, oh, we'll produce it. And then you sort of, you know, gradually work your way up and hopefully get the attention of the right people.
- [51:29]
B
What was the first play you wrote that got Produced.
- [51:32]
A
The first musical was originally called Oedipus Private Eye. We changed it later to Wicked City. But it was a camp noir retelling of the Oedipus myth where this beautiful older woman hires a detective to find her son, sleeps with them, and then they realize he's her son.
- [51:52]
B
Bada bing, bada boom. Yes.
- [51:53]
A
And it was very campy and had brilliant cast with Michelle Pak and Jan Maxwell and Mary Von Davis. And they all did it at this small little theater company in Fairlane, New Jersey. And, you know, we begged and begged and they ended up saying yes. So, yeah, it was. It was just, you know, an amazing cast for, you know, my collaborator, Matthew Sklar and I were just. We were nobodies. And they said they liked the show so much that they did it.
- [52:23]
B
So what is the pipeline from Oedipus to Wedding Singer and then eventually your six Tony nominations. But that's. We've got time. We'll get to the rest of those nominations. But Wedding Singer was your Broadway debut as a writer, correct?
- [52:37]
A
Yeah. So this is. This is what happened. We finally got a show Matt and I wrote called Rhythm Club that was scheduled to come to Broadway. We were doing a regional production at the Signature in Arlington. The theater was set. The poster was up in Shubert Alley for the Rhythm Club. The reviews came out and they were crushing, and they just. Everybody pulled their money. The show was dead in the water and was over. So I use a lot of that for the opening night, bad review scene, because I've been there and it's awful. And Matt and I were just completely depressed and at a crossroads. And I called him up one day and I said, look, we can either quit and I'll get a Ph.D. and I'll teach. And he was already conducting, and you could continue conducting, or we can just double down. And I'll just accept that I have to be, you know, you know, temp or a bartender until the day I die. And we'll just keep trying. And so we said, you know, fuck it, we're going to try. Let's just keep going. Let's just keep going. So I was around pitching a movie, the screenplay that I had written called Franken Teacher for, you know, it was for kids. And I got a meeting at New Line and I met with Mark Kaufman, and we're sort of talking, and I can tell he's not really interested in the movie. And then he's like, your name is very familiar to me. And I said, well, you know, I also write musicals. And he went, stop. And he went to his desk drawer and pulled out the demo that they had sent out for Rhythm Club. And he's like, I love this. I love this. We just did Hairspray. Would you want to write a musical for us? And I was like, I.
- [54:26]
B
Yes.
- [54:28]
A
And that's how Wedding Singer happened. And then, you know, Wedding Singer was exciting and we got nominated for Tonys, but it got knocked by the New York Times, so it didn't have a long run. But thankfully, they had already asked us to start working on Elf. And so we did Elf. And then Aladdin happened for me at about the same time. So there was one week where we were doing Labs Bolt. So I was running up and down the stairs of, you know, New York, a new 42 studios with two huge scripts. I was going from, like, you know, snowflakes and Christmas time to up, you know, stairs where it was like sand and, you know, the desert and. Yeah, so that's sort of the. The way it sort of unfolded. It was all. But it was sort of reminded me that something. Sometimes not getting what you want is the best thing that could happen to you. Because, you know, if we would have come in with Rhythm Club, we probably would have gotten killed by the times, and that would have been, you know, it. But just the fact that we went through all of that just so that this studio exec could get a demo to get us to write our first Broadway show, it's sort of like that's when you have to go, okay, I'm not going to try and control the universe anymore. I'm just going to, like, see where we go.
- [55:40]
B
Exactly. Keep putting stuff out there and where it sticks is where you go.
- [55:45]
A
Absolutely.
- [55:45]
B
That's the. With Wedding Singer, Elf and Aladdin, those are three films that you've adapted for stage, which is a very common pipeline. But as someone who has done it frequently and to Tony nominated success and with Aladdin still running success, what is. What's like, one of the greater challenges of adapting from that medium to the other?
- [56:10]
A
Well, the most important thing is that people aren't feeling like they're watching a rehash of the movie because they could just watch the movie. So. But you also want to make sure you give them those tent pole moments. So there's got to be a rapping granny and Wedding Singer and there's got to be a magic carpet in Aladdin, but it has to be, you know, hopefully it goes deeper and goes a few surprising places. And, you know, Aladdin was very specific case because Alan Menken wanted To get all the songs were cut from the original animated feature into the Broadway show. So that meant, you know, there was a song that was called babcac, Omar, Aladdin, Kassim. So that meant, well, I've got to kill the monkey because he's got all these new friends.
- [56:52]
B
Yeah.
- [56:53]
A
How to integrate them. And, you know. But, yeah, that's the great thing about doing something that is a movie is that people already. It's already branded, so people know what it is. So that's the bonus. But the challenge is, how do you make it fresh, new, and go someplace they aren't expecting because they already sort of. Most people are really familiar, especially it's a famous movie.
- [57:15]
B
Absolutely. And you also have Elf coming back this winter, so that's fun.
- [57:20]
A
When you.
- [57:20]
B
When you look at those adaptations, do you have, like, either a specific song or scene or plot change or character change that you look at and you're like, that was a really good artistic decision on my. On my part. Like, in this. In this industry, we're not allowed to pat ourselves on the back too much because ego is a very crushing thing, and nobody likes people who brag. But also, you know, it's really hard, and not everything lasts. And even if it does end up on Broadway, who knows if it'll have an afterlife? So, like, I think you. You are allowed to say, you know what, that thing right there in that show, that was good. I think I can say that that was good. Well, I.
- [57:55]
A
In Elf, they asked me several times to write the book, and I just done Wedding Singer, and I kept saying no. And they were like, why wouldn't you want to do this? And I said, because I don't see how the story goes in the second act. And from now on, if I don't get it, I'm not. I don't want to commit to that. So they ended up hiring Tom. The great Tom Meehan and Bob Martin came aboard. And so I was just doing lyrics, which suddenly was very freeing, because all of a sudden, when there would be a book problem, I would be like, hey, what about this? And they would be like, oh, my God, thank you. So one of the problems we had was in the scene and song where Buddy the Elf is decorating Macy's, the North Pole, they're like, why would the store manager listen to him? And why would all these other people join in? They're all jaded New Yorkers. And I said, what if Buddy's talking about Santa Claus? But the manager thinks he's talking about the big corporate Guy. And so they use the language that is, like, confusing. So he's like, oh, no. The big guy loves it when we sing and when we decorate grade. And so all of a sudden, everybody gets on board. And so I was like, that was a good solve. You know, they did all the work and made it brilliant. But I was like, you know, that's one thing where I was like, I was on that day. And then I go back to being mediocre.
- [59:21]
B
I think that's what it is. We all are mediocre. And every now and then, we have a brilliant moment, and then we exploit it for all it's worth.
- [59:28]
A
Exactly.
- [59:29]
B
Well, what are some of your favorite musical theater librettos?
- [59:34]
A
You know, it's when I. When I was, I think, like, 13 or 14, I came with my dad to New York, and this was before it was famous. And we saw the, you know, original Little Shop of Horrors, and I was blown away. I think libretto and lyrics is so brilliant and watertight and not, you know, there's no point where you feel like we're treading water or we aren't interested. There's not a character you don't care about or at least, you know, are fascinated with. And so that, for my money, was when I. I was like. And it's the first time I really listened to lyrics, like, really listen to them. And when he finally rhymes Audrey with tawdry, my head exploded, because I was like, how did I not see that one coming? And how brilliant. And when she, you know, is being put into the plant and she'll finally be somewhere that's green, I just, you know. Brilliant.
- [60:36]
B
Yeah. I'm a giant slut for Howard Ashman. So that was a very great choice. I don't know how familiar you are with Smile, but I am familiar.
- [60:45]
A
Yeah.
- [60:45]
B
Phenomenal. My listeners are like, oh, of course. Matt found a way to bring Smile up. I love Smile. I think it's one of the most underrated scores of the 80s. And I actually think the.
- [60:54]
A
The.
- [60:54]
B
The licensed libretto, which is ultimately Howard's first or second draft of it before it went to Broadway, I think is a really good satire. But, like, he's got lyrics in that that are so stupidly funny. The. Which my. The one that I love the most is. Is Shine. Where they're doing. They're practicing the physical fitness routine. So, of course the lyrics are dumb, but he rhymes. You'll. You'll feel absolutely wonderful when you decided you'll feel healthy and Jane Fondiful. I. I'm like, you sit down, Howard. Like, you. You're. You're drinking too much Pepsi today. Like, I love it so much.
- [61:30]
A
Well, I. My. One of my favorites. And I'm gonna get it wrong because I don't have it memorized. Is for your sake. For my sake. For Christ's sake, smile.
- [61:39]
B
It's so good. It's so good. I mean, all of them, like Jerry Ferraro, we girls of tomorrow are ready to promise you that. It's like, yes, sir. We're tough enough. We can handle Gorbachev. I'm just like, it's so good.
- [61:52]
A
He.
- [61:53]
B
He was a monster. And I. And I wish he and I got to know each other because he would have been the best of friends. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top.
- [62:01]
A
Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top.
- [62:07]
B
You're.
- [62:08]
A
You're a Coolidge dollar.
- [62:09]
B
You're the nimble tread of the feet. I mean, do you geek out about lyric writing sometimes? And you're just, like, listening to a score and you're like, damn, that's a good one. Oh, yeah.
- [62:20]
A
All the time.
- [62:21]
B
All the time. Well, any. Any. Anyone's do. Like, so if a friend sends you, like, a demo and there's a good lyric, do you text them and you say, you monster, like, and then quote the lyric?
- [62:31]
A
No, people. Actually, people don't send me stuff.
- [62:33]
B
Why don't they send you stuff? Are they intimidated, do you think?
- [62:36]
A
No, I just don't. I don't know. I have no idea. Like, it's. Yeah, people don't. No one shares with me.
- [62:42]
B
Maybe it's because you're secretly meaner than you realize.
- [62:45]
A
It could be. It could be.
- [62:46]
B
Yeah. You. Someone might have sent you one thing one time, and you were. You were just like the Times critic in Showman's and just eviscerated them and they said, no one send your stuff to Chad Beglin. He will annihilate it.
- [62:59]
A
No, it's. I am very, very good at giving notes. And that's. That's one thing. Like with Bob and with Matt, we are super, super supportive, and it's almost sickening, but we're like, great work. Great. What a great scene. What? You know, so. Because it's hard enough out there.
- [63:20]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So when giving notes, like, I. Because I sometimes do consulting work with people on their stuff, and I have my sort of mentality with it. But when you're giving feedback, like, or when you're getting feedback, what is sort of a golden rule you would say about how to. How to give feedback or receive it.
- [63:41]
A
I think it's just, you know, putting it in a positive, constructive way. You know, like, this is good, but I think it'd be better because I think maybe it's missing this or I'm not sure. What do you think? Is it missing that? I mean, the. The crazy thing is that I used to get. So I was fine with book notes, but lyric notes would panic me, especially when we're out of town or in previews. And whenever I would get one, I would totally shut down. And then I decided, you know, what I have to do is think that, oh, this director or this collaborator is confident that I could do better. They are. They are. They wouldn't bring it up if they didn't think I could do better. They believe I can do better. So it's sort of, you know, Jedi mind. Tricked myself into taking it in a positive way and, you know, trying to. I. You know, you have to sort of cheerlead yourself when you're. You're, you know, alone with the laptop and trying to fix something that everything everyone thinks is broken.
- [64:43]
B
Absolutely. Was there something with one of. One of your shows out of town that was particularly hard to crack? Whether it was Wedding Singer, Aladdin Prom?
- [64:56]
A
There's so many things I. Well, this isn't really hard to crack, but it's, I think, a funny story. The brilliant Margo Lyon, who produced Hairspray, and then, of course, was our producer on the Wedding Singer, along with New Line. The lead actor had a joke that he wanted to make, and she was like, absolutely not. And the one thing that drives me insane is when we can't try things. And that's the only time I get testy, is when somebody's like, no, we can't try it, because what the fuck are we doing then? This is the whole point. And I was like, margo, come on, let's just try it. Let's just try it. And she's like, I'll make you a deal. We try it three nights in a row. If it gets a laugh, three nights in a row, it's in. If not, I don't want to hear it about it ever again. And I was like, you have a deal. So we stood in the theater the first night, he says it, huge laugh. Stayed in the theater a second, like, says it, huge laugh. We stand in the theater the third night, enormous laugh. And she turns to me, she goes, oh, fuck you, and walks out of the theater. It was just like. It was so brilliant because she was like, she knew. She's like, she couldn't do anything now. It was done in the script forevermore. She. She.
- [66:18]
B
She signed that contract with Ursula and Exactly. Sorry, babe, that voice is gone. That's amazing.
- [66:26]
A
Was.
- [66:26]
B
So, I guess then with some, let's say the Prom, which was an original story, right? You. You didn't have a prototype to go off of, so you're writing the script with. With Bob Martin. You're creating this show out of town and bringing it to Broadway. Was there what was like a major shift from Atlanta to Broadway with the Prom?
- [66:45]
A
There was a huge. Well, we rethought the principal character in Atlanta, he was. Everyone thought he was gay, and that was the joke. We had a song called Gay for you that he sang to Dee Dee. And it was sort of just like an obvious joke. And it wasn't really the landing. And so we changed it completely. We recast it. And then the other major thing was after Atlanta, Casey came to us. He said, I feel like we have the people that are, you know, actors in the musical, but I feel like the town feels like a musical theater town. It doesn't feel real. And so we decided to go back and revamp all of those scenes and characters. And we've used the town. I'm from Centralia, which is going through a lot of things that the fictional town is going through. You know, a lot of the factories have shut down. It's. People are losing their jobs. They're getting scared. And when you get scared, you find someone to blame. And the prison is the only place to get a job. I mean, it's. It's rough. And so once we sort of did that, the. The folks, it seemed less sort of like, everyone's happy. Go lucky. And, you know, to like. No, these people are really. They're scared, they're angry. And it. It made it sort of feel more grounded and real.
- [68:10]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I. I remember watching a clip of you happened when it was at Alliance. It was in her. You guys were in rehearsal for it, and it was very different from how it was on Broadway. And I still don't know what the plot context of it was from the Alliance. And I know Caitlyn Kinnan, and I keep forgetting to ask her every time I see her, and it's been driving me nuts. Can you tell me what the plot context was for you happened at the Alliance?
- [68:35]
A
Yes, at the Alliance. There were no promposals that was that. It just. They went into the band closet and they sang that they loved each other. And that was It. And it just felt like, well, yeah, we already know they love each other, so what's. We're treading water. So our producers kept bringing up promposals, and we were just like, ah, we're not going to do that. And then we realized, oh, no, that's the whole thing. So they did not. There were. No. I think they sang the two women saying the entire song. There were, like. There was backup. But so then it became, you know, oh, these two couples, these straight couples are going to very publicly do this promposal. And then you. You see the difference between the two girls, that they have to do it in private, but it's still a celebration. So there's. And then she says, yeah, so there's much more of a story there. And, you know, it goes from point A to point. Whereas in Atlanta, it was just like, I love you. Okay, cool. So, you know, don't talk down about.
- [69:35]
B
Your work that way, Chad. I'm sure it was still very moving in Atlanta. It's just better now. You improved it.
- [69:40]
A
It was an early draft.
- [69:41]
B
Yes. Pat yourself on the back. It was good before, but it's better now. Yes. I also say I didn't realize that Barry was. Was not gay out of town, but not Barry.
- [69:51]
A
The principal.
- [69:51]
B
Oh, the principal. Sorry, the principal. But so, so, so then. So Barry was always gay out of town.
- [69:59]
A
Yeah, but the. The part of the principle was everybody thought he was gay, but he was actually straight and in love with Digi.
- [70:05]
B
Yes. And then. So for Broadway, he just was very straight.
- [70:10]
A
Very. He wasn't. You know, we had Marty Moran in Atlanta, and it was all these jokes about people mistaking him for being gay. So all of that got cut.
- [70:19]
B
Okay, that. That, that makes sense then. Yeah. Listen, there are many straight men out there who love musicals. My father can quote every single lyric of Follies, but so then it's actually. We'll say within with Barry. So. Something that I've always loved about the prom, and I've said it on Mike many, many times, is I love that with Barry, with Alyssa, and then with.
- [70:41]
A
Just sort of the.
- [70:42]
B
The kids in general. The prom on stage actually has three different ways in which queer kids can be responded to from coming out. I don't know if this was intentional on your guys's part. Let's say it was. And you all are very much geniuses that make me cry. But we have the teenagers who, you know, they start off antagonistic, but then by the end of the show, they do a complete reversal, which is, you know, the absolute dream. We have Barry's mom, who we never meet, like, with his parents. We find out on the show, they never, by the time the curtain comes down, they never really accept him, but he's at peace with that and he has his own happy life. And then you have Alyssa's mom, who isn't there yet but will get there. We see by the end of the show, she's making that first step, the we'll talk tonight, and goes off stage. That was very important to me when I saw it. And I forget the name of the actress who played Alyssa's mom on Broadway.
- [71:36]
A
But I'm Courtney Collins.
- [71:39]
B
Yes, she was. She broke my heart. But I loved those three elements of responses to Queer coming up, because I, I always feel not, I, I always feel unsure when I watch certain shows or movies. And, like, everyone is just, like, very accepting all at once. Because the truth is that that's not always what's going to happen. And I know that a lot of queer kids get upset when they come out and it's not met like it is in the movies. And like, did I do something wrong? Did I say it incorrectly? It's like, no, no. Like, you're going to get every different kind of reaction out there, and you have to sort of be ready for that. And that's something that I really love about the prom. I think it's in addition to the humor and the silliness of the show that was a very real element to it. So props to you, mama.
- [72:24]
A
Oh, well, thank you.
- [72:26]
B
You're very welcome. I, I mean, I don't know. Again, I don't know if you, like, if you guys sat down in a room with a board and you said, we need three different reactions to these queer stories. But that is what I got from it.
- [72:38]
A
I, I, we actually did not, but we, the one we struggled with was that final scene with, with Melissa and her mom. And somebody had said, you know, that the, the phrase, you know, I just don't want you to have a hard life. And then the child said, it's already hard enough. And so that came from real life. And we were like, yeah, that is good. Because it's, you know, the tricky part of Mrs. Green, and she handled it brilliantly, is that she's not evil. She wants the best for her daughter. She's just totally doing the wrong things. Doesn't understand what the best really is. But, you know, she, and that's why Courtney was so great, because she didn't play her like a villain. Yeah, really, she loves her daughter. And she really thinks if she does this and this and this, she'll have a better life. And when her daughter says no, she can kind of hear it. And like you said, they're, they're gonna, they're gonna talk.
- [73:43]
B
Yeah, I, I remember seeing it on, On Broadway and watching Courtney, the way she played Mrs. Green, like, genuinely coming from a place of, I think what I'm doing is right. And then always being baffled when whatever she said or did was met with criticism. She was like, what? Like, with the, with the alternate fake prom. And, like, she opens act two, she's like, why am I being attacked? Like, we did what we thought was right. Like, like, what is this? And it's, it makes it human. And you can still, as an audience, understand that she's in the wrong while not being like, yeah, down with, with the PTA and this. Like, it was it. I don't love it when shows placate and when shows kind of hold an audience's hand and says, but, okay, so here's the homophobe. Here's the person who's right. Like, we know who to. To cheer on. Right. I, I, I appreciate when there's more nuance, more facets than right than most shows would have.
- [74:37]
A
What's funny? I mean, not to toggle back to showmance, but the one.
- [74:42]
B
Sorry, you mean the thing that we're promoting? Yes. Let's get back to the book.
- [74:45]
A
Yes. No, but it ties in the one. I. My editor, Marie Michaels, was, Is. Was an amazing. Had an amazing experience. There's one note that I was like, we need to actually have a couple conversation about this. She. There's the character Noah gets bullied all through high school, and one of his tormentors is this character, Eddie Gregory. And she's like, I don't really think we need the scene where he confronts him and he, you know, Eddie apologizes. And, And I was like, I really feel strongly about that because I was like, I want someone to apologize to him for all of that.
- [75:20]
B
Yeah.
- [75:21]
A
You know, I, I would. I was bullied daily in high school, and, you know, there were just. That's why Breathe Emma song is so easy to write, because that's what I did. I just totally disassociated. There were hallways that I would walk down, and I was gonna get called a fag, and I'm gonna beat you up in the parking lot, and I'm gonna. And I would just, like, totally, like, think of something else and just block it out. And, like, it was awful. And so I just felt really strongly that somebody's got to be like, God, I was such an. I'm sorry. And the. Another thing that made me sort of think about the Luke. Not to spoil too much, but one of the guys that was my chief tormentor from sixth grade to. I graduated high school back when Facebook was becoming a thing, sent me a friend request, and I was like, is this guy on crack? Is he fucking kidding me? And, like, I. I was like, okay, if you want to look at my big gay life, I'll accept it. And he did not turn out to be gay. But. But I was just like, how can you not remember that? And for a second I thought, was I wrong? Was I making that all up? And of course I was absolutely not. I checked in with friends and, like, no, no, no. He was a monster. But, you know, I just. I think, you know, that thought of, like, oh, no, and everybody comes around and everything's fine and everything's great. And, you know, I think is not realistic. Some people it's a great thing, and some people it's not. And it's also why when Noah comes out to his father, he says, well, at least you're still at Adams. And he's like, the fuck does that mean? Like, I'm. There was a possibility that I had to change my name because I'm gay. You know, it's not. Not everybody has these, like, wonderful, perfect Hallmark stories.
- [77:17]
B
Yeah. And I. I agree. I think it's. It was good to have the scene with Eddie, because without. Would feel like everyone is gaslighting Noah. If, like, your entire childhood is actually not what you thought it was. Right. There does need to be a truth that is acknowledged of what he's saying, of. Of the pain that he felt, because otherwise he's being told if. If the genders were reversed, it would be everyone telling this woman to calm down and. And no one really wants that. So I. I did. I did appreciate that. And it was nice to see, like, some of Noah's aggression, like, come out in a way that wasn't responded with, like, dude, like, where did that come from?
- [77:57]
A
Like, when.
- [77:58]
B
When he sort of confronts Eddie semi violently, as violently as Noah can get. Like, Eddie's like, yeah, like, kind of, like, appropriate response. When I think about it, like, based on all I put you through, like, Luke is like, no, man, that's too much. And he's like, no, I. I did put you into a garbage. And, like, like, if you would like to punch me, you can.
- [78:20]
A
I know that's his solution, is well, go ahead and punch me. It's just like that. That. That's not how it works.
- [78:25]
B
Yeah, it's not how it works. But, like, again, I did. I at least appreciated that someone in the story was like, yes, I. I did do that. And you, you, you are right to not like me right now. Again, maybe it's because you and I are very much Team Noah. Like, not just his growth, but, like, I think some of Noah's anger is justified and everyone around us is like, I think you might want to go to a therapist.
- [78:47]
A
Exactly.
- [78:48]
B
Yeah. What were some of your influences for this book? And you talk about, like, rom coms. Are there specific rom coms that you love that you maybe thought of or watched again, to get in the headspace when writing this?
- [79:01]
A
It's funny. I. I had read, obviously, there's Red, White, Royal Blue, Game Changer. And then I started reading. I really like this British author Alexis hall, and he wrote boyfriend material and husband material and upcoming father material.
- [79:18]
B
And I told you, your book is my crack. Like, this is the stuff I love.
- [79:22]
A
So I, I love him. And I've actually reached out to him and told him how much I loved it. I love the gunkle and the gunkle abroad. And Stephen Rowley was kind enough to give me a blurb for my book, as was Andrew Sean Greer, who wrote Less and Less Is Lost, Pulitzer Prize winning.
- [79:46]
B
I have not read Less Is Lost, but I did read Less because I am literate and culture.
- [79:51]
A
It's funny because they. I'm learning all these new words. And they were like, the agents are like, we're going to see if we can get some blurbs. And I'm like, what's a blurb? They're like, you give it to an established reader and you see if they'll give you a quote and then we can put it on the book because it's not going to be reviewed when it's, you know, released. And so I had read Less and I put it on Instagram and just said, love this book and tagged Andrew, and Andrew wrote back, I'm a huge theater queen. I love your work. Honored to be on your reading list. I was like, oh, that's great. That's nice. And then same thing with Stephen Rowley. I just totally randomly put up Gunkle when it happened. And. And then they were trying to figure out how to get blurbs. And I was like, I'm just going to ask these guys. Like, I don't know them. And so I reached out to Andrew and I was like, is this tacky. I don't know, but would you read it and maybe consider giving me a blurb if you like it? And he wrote back, is complet tacky, but we all have to do it. Send me your draft. And, you know, Stephen was like, I'm just starting my book tour. I don't know if I can do it. And then they both ended up giving me these glowing blurbs. And my agent was like, how the did you do that? And I was like, well, what's the point of having a gay mafia if you don't use it? So, you know, it was like they were all blown away because, you know, those are two pretty heavy hitters to get on your first novel.
- [81:18]
B
Absolutely. But what. Okay, so now this is not literary, but it is in the romantic comedy sphere, movie wise. Favorite romantic comedies. Throw them at me.
- [81:30]
A
Oh, boy. Everybody, like, it's. It's now seen in there. I love, actually, but I know how problematic.
- [81:43]
B
You didn't say it was objectively the best. You said it's one of your favorites. That's totally allowed. And I think there are plot lines in the movie that are great.
- [81:50]
A
Yes. Now, but, you know, through. Through the modern lens, I see all the problems. And I. My mom came up to stay with us when Christmas. I'm like, you're gonna love this movie. And at the end, she's like, they're all awful. I was like, huh? Maybe I just watched it. It was a different time. I don't. I don't know.
- [82:09]
B
I think you and I just really like awful people.
- [82:11]
A
Yeah, maybe. Well, that's. That's the name of our new musical is Horrible People, so.
- [82:15]
B
Oh, really?
- [82:16]
A
You've got some. Yeah, yeah.
- [82:18]
B
Do you want to give us a tease about that?
- [82:21]
A
It's. It's funny because I was originally going to write it as a book, but the creative team from the prom, we were looking for an idea. And I said, well, I have this idea for a book, but I don't know if this was before I finished this one. I don't know if I can actually write a book. And then. So the basic idea is there are two these friends that are broke bakers, and they're just at their wit's end, and this horrible woman from the Hamptons comes in before she goes to get plastic surgery and wants something quick, and then just a quick something sweet treat. And then she accidentally falls into their cellar and they think she's dead. And so they decide they're going to steal her identity, go to her house in the Hamptons take everything they can sell it and just, you know, go to wherever. Go to. Go to Rome, go to Paris. And so they do. But when they get to her house, she said everyone was gone. One by one, the family members start returning home, and the woman that's pretending to be her, she's like, has bandages, but they take them off and they're like, oh, my God, you look 20 years younger. She starts falling in love with the horrible Hampton's lady's husband. And then at the end of act one, we've caught. We've said she's dead. We go back to the bakery, and you see her crawling in her bra and slip out of the. And she's like, I'm gonna have kill. And then hijinks ensue. But we. It's, you know, we did a table read with Sutton Foster and Beth Leavel and it was, you know, super fun. So now we're just, you know, we're doing notes on that, and we'll see, you know, we'll be shopping it around, see what happens.
- [83:58]
B
I love how you described act one, and then you go. And then act two. Hijinks ensue. Like, hijinks haven't already. Then, like, the actual complications happen.
- [84:06]
A
Yeah, it just, you know, things get even more insane.
- [84:08]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [84:09]
A
That's. That's.
- [84:10]
B
That's so much fun. I love everything about that that sounds like, honestly, a musical that Noah Adams would. Would write.
- [84:17]
A
Yes. He would enjoy that very much.
- [84:19]
B
Yes. Who would you say are Noah Adams's biggest influences as a writer?
- [84:25]
A
I. He has this thing with Lorenzo Hart.
- [84:30]
B
He.
- [84:32]
A
At the end when he's. It's very brief mention, but I think his lyrics are at least the ones that we see at the end of the book. For More Than Love can hold are very, sort of very Larry Hart. Very throwback, very not dated, but sort of more poetic than we are today. And, yeah, I think that's. He has. I think he has a fondness for that and obviously a big, huge love of Evita.
- [85:05]
B
Yes, he does love his Evita. I was actually thinking the More than love can hold from the lyrics that I saw, it's sort of like if Lauren's heart wrote I wish I could forget you from Passion, like, it's a similar vibe, but, like, not as toxic.
- [85:18]
A
Right, Exactly.
- [85:19]
B
Because what I. I do. I do enjoy passion. Like, anything anyone who's had a major, major heartbreak can get into it. But, like, that show is very much the vibe of I'm in love with you and it's killing Me, Lorenzo, Hard is like, it wasn't totally killing you. It was just maybe busting your chops a bit. Yeah, yeah.
- [85:37]
A
What would you say?
- [85:39]
B
So Evita would be Nick Adam, Noah Adams's favorite musical.
- [85:43]
A
I don't know about Nick Adams, but.
- [85:45]
B
Noah Adams for sure, that was a Freudian slip, Nick. I don't know if Nick Adams has a favorite musical, but Noah Adams for sure loves Evita. What is your favorite musical again?
- [85:54]
A
Little Shop. And it was, it was Little Shop or Evita when I was a kid and. Well, not kid, teenager, but yeah, I was in my room. I was either Audrey or I was Ava Perrone or maybe both. If it was a two show day, I would just sing and lip sync and hours, hours, hours.
- [86:17]
B
I'm assuming it was the full Broadway recording with Patty. With Evita.
- [86:22]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [86:22]
B
Oh, yeah. Well, every now and then you get that kid who was like, no, the White Album. Like, that was. That was my Evita. I'm like, okay, you know, traditionalist. Get out of here with the little shot movie. Do you think that the studio ending works?
- [86:42]
A
You know, I'm really close with Alan Menkins. I have to be careful. I mean, I prefer the, the stage version. I just. It just fits in with the tone. And who knows, maybe it's just because I knew that version and worshiped it for so long. That could be true too.
- [86:59]
B
Yeah, well, I think the stage version is perfect. There's not a single thing I would change. But I do think that the movie, the adaptation of the stage show is a near perfect adaptation as well. I guess I'm in the minority people that think that the studio ending does work. But. And I've gone on many diatribes about it and it's not just like Frank Oz likes to say, oh, when you see a stage show, they come out and bow at the end. You know, they're not really dead. Whereas in a movie like, like it's all over and no matter how silly it is, audiences get mad at you. There are enough, like, small changes to the film version where it actually doesn't really build to the Faustian what's. I'm looking for devolution of. Devolution of Seymour.
- [87:44]
A
It, It.
- [87:45]
B
He does. He doesn't earn that death in the movie because they make enough small tweaks that like, he hasn't actually kind of fallen apart morally. But this, this has nothing to do with anything you've written. I'm just. Now I'm just talking. But. But yeah, I know. I like to ask people questions like that just because they're. They're the hot bun topics of theater kids all the time. And so I'm like, well, what's. What's your take? Like, because people. People, I feel like, are always nervous to say hot takes they have. If it's not, like, the. The normal opinion, like, I, I. Here's another hot take I'll have. I love Evita. I think it's thrilling. It's the last musical I will tell anyone to study if they want to figure out musical theater writing. Like, it is not. Same, same thing like the Moulin Rouge movie. Like this. They do everything wrong with how you're supposed to write a musical, and yet the whole thing works, and I couldn't tell you why.
- [88:38]
A
Yeah, I. Of course it's. No, there's a lot of, you know, telling instead of showing and not sure why we're rooting for her or are we not? You know, but, yeah, I think I just. I saw it at a time. I'm sure it was a lot of the Hal Prince staging because it came to the St. Louis Muni where we saw our shows, or not the Muni. The Fox. Muni is outdoors. We saw it at the Fox. And I was, I think, 14, 15, and I just never seen a musical presented like that. Just everything about it was new at that time, at least to my brain, you know? So I think it was just like, all of those things intersecting at the same time, going, what is this? You know? But, yeah, no, I would not. It would be like telling, you know, a lyric writer, you know, look at. Look at Guinevere from Camelot. That's really great way to write a song. Just have the chorus come out and tell you things that happen off stage. Like, yeah, no, absolutely.
- [89:47]
B
It's always telling, never showing. Ava has no arc as a character. She comes out a manipulative bitch. She ends a manipulative bitch. You kind of need a glossary of Argentinian politics to understand what certain scenes are about, but. And yet I'm like, yeah, no, shoot it up into my veins, please. All of it. Absolutely. Every second of it. The top.
- [90:11]
A
Yeah, you're an arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.
- [90:19]
B
You're the nimble tread of the feet. I also like it when Aita can be a little weird. I don't like the streamlining it's had over the last couple of decades, really, starting with the Madonna movie onwards of, like, let's make it all super poppy. I'm like, no, I love those dissonant. Chords that are in, like, Ava and Magaldi that, like.
- [90:40]
A
Yeah, yes, absolutely. And it's also, you know, it was also, you know, the design. The costume design was so glamorous at the time, and, you know, so, I mean, she comes out in that dress, and then she's in Chanel, and, you know, it's just. It was so like, ooh. I think that was. I think it was the sort of, you know, big old queen in me. It's like, oh, now she's getting dressed, and they're bringing on her, you know, her diamonds and her furs and. Yay.
- [91:07]
B
Yeah, absolutely. It was.
- [91:08]
A
It was. It's.
- [91:09]
B
I. I always call Evita Dynasty meets Gypsy. Like, it's.
- [91:12]
A
It's just.
- [91:13]
B
It's those two combined. It's a bitch on wheels belting her face off, and you're like.
- [91:16]
A
Yeah, exactly, Exactly.
- [91:19]
B
Dressed up beautifully. We love it. We love to see it. Back to showmance because, you know, this is what we're here for today.
- [91:30]
A
So I want to talk about actually.
- [91:31]
B
Luke as a character for a second. First of all, I have a hard time whenever I read a book, I'm always, like, casting it in my head. It just helps me sort of see the characters. I have a very hard time casting Luke. So who. If they were to make this into a movie tomorrow, who would you cast as Luke? Just so when I reread this, I know who to fantasize about.
- [91:50]
A
Oh, man. Who. I'm terrible with names. Who is the villain in Fire Island?
- [91:59]
B
Oh, yeah. Zayn something. Zane.
- [92:02]
A
I would. I would cast Zayn somebody, whoever that guy is.
- [92:06]
B
Yeah, that's.
- [92:07]
A
That's.
- [92:07]
B
That's very good, because he's tall and blonde and muscular and very pretty. Yeah, that makes sense. But. So Luke is a character. How. How did he kind of come about for you with this. With this story?
- [92:22]
A
I knew that I wanted him to be. I knew that I wanted him to have had this really shitty childhood but had somehow managed to come out of it with a great attitude. And I wanted him to be completely confused in the first half before things gets cleared up. I wanted him to be completely confused because he's trying so hard to be nice to Noah. And I wanted him also to be somebody that Noah would not think in a million years, even if he were gay, would have any interest in him. And so I wanted him to be surprising in that way that, you know, even though, like, he says you could see anything goes and he didn't really like it, but, you know, he just went. Because he just really had. There's something about this Noah kid. I wanted him to be. I thought it was really important that he says, I didn't. I couldn't explain it to you because I couldn't explain it to myself. I don't, you know, it's so. I wanted it to be a very different kind of journey. I hate that word, but, you know, journey than Noah and Noah's life and Noah being just, I'm gay. Get over it. I don't, you know, I've been bullied about it. I don't. You know, and I think, I think that one of the things that I loved about. I sold the book to Pamela Dorman Books and Marie Michaels was the editor there. And when we were doing Our Call or Zoom, you know, when we were discussing whether or not they were going to buy the book, you know, Marie said, you know, the thing I love about Luke is he's not your standard, like, cowboy that, you know, gonna be like in every other romance novel. You know, he's really tender and he's really been hurt and he really has some insecurities. And so, yeah, I guess that that was. I just wanted to make sure he was real and wasn't just this, like, you know, dreamy guy that, you know, says all the right things and never has an issue. And so, yeah, that was. That was sort of the tricky thing.
- [94:39]
B
Yeah, and I appreciate it. So he there with the Luke plot line or with the Luke character in his journey, which I agree with you, the Bachelor and Bachelorette have ruined that word forever. But he's sort of the. Because in addition to the queer romance novels that I really love and Broadway and all these things mixed into there, there's a little bit of the, like Lifetime Netflix holiday romance movies of the big city. Person comes back to the small town and the hunk from the small town helps them grow as a human being, shows them fun things of life. And you didn't give Luke a wisecracking kid sister, so thank you for that because all of those other movies do that. And like, without fail, I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't understand this 25 year age gap between you and your kid's sister, but you gave him a, like the wisecracking mom who definitely has the loving relationship. And it's a very similar relationship Luke has with his mom that Noah has with his. But they actually kind of. I would argue Luke and his mom understand each other maybe a little bit better than Noah and his mom do. And Noah and his mom are very tight. But Luke and his mom, like, have a certain kind of respect for each other that I think is maybe more balanced, if that makes sense. And I appreciate that. It was nice to sort of see him in that safety environment. For those of you who haven't read the book yet, because again, the book hasn't come out. But Luke is a character from Noah's hometown who is very close with Noah's father, was close with him growing up. And in Noah's mind, Luke was one of his main tormentors in high school. But it's possible that Noah is remembering some of that wrong. Is he? Is he not? That's for you guys to decide. When you buy and read the book. I can definitely tell you for a fact that I got four different people to pre order it just two weeks ago when I was reading the book, because what it was was that I was meeting friends for two separate. Two different sets of friends for coffee. And because I read the book over two and a half days and I was reading it on my phone, I was like walking up to meet them while, like, reading. I was. It was the millennial equivalent of Belle and Beauty and the Beast. I was reading and walking and they're like, you're. You're like, who are you texting? What are you watching? I don't know. I'm like, I'm. I'm reading and I was telling them about the book and they're like, oh, that sounds. That sounds delightful. So you definitely had at least four pre orders just from that alone. And I'm sure you're going to get at least four more from this episode.
- [96:57]
A
I appreciate it. Of course, it's funny what you said about, you know, the sort of Lifetime Hallmark movies. And after I'd finished the book, this, I, of course, blanking on her name. But I read this thing about this, this very successful romantic comedy writer and she's like, embrace the tropes. You've got to give them the tropes. Your readers will be mad if you don't give them the tropes. And I was like, what are the tropes? And so she goes on to list them. And I'm like, oh, I did embrace the tropes, you know, And I'm like, oh, there is the, the, the almost kiss that gets interrupted. There's the, you know, there's the, you know, enemies to lovers. There's the, you know, it's just, it's so funny to me because, you know, and I knew. I was like, here we go. I'm doing it. It's the, you know, New York sophisticated guy comes to his hometown and meets the cowboy. But you, you know, sometimes you want to read a book where the guy comes from, you know, New York to his hometown, meets a hot guy.
- [98:02]
B
No. Absolutely no. I want to make it very clear. I love those stories. And I'm not lying to you when I tell you that everything you wrote in showmance is truly my heroine. But it's so, like, not to, like, self promote myself, but the first half of this episode is me talking about the play that I wrote and sort of the. What's going on with that down the line? My play is also a queer, centered on a queer romance and also kind of takes romantic comedies and does sort of the scream approach of, like, deconstructing all the tropes while carrying out said tropes. And the truth is, like, they come. They come from a sense of reality because these are people and we all know people, and these things do happen. But also, like, the tropes are there for comfort. It's there for structure, but the fun is how you can fuck with it. And, like, if you. If you can take a genre that people know very well and, you know, give them what they want, but in a surprising way, they will love you forever for it. And I think that's sort of harder to do than either try to blow it up completely or to adhere to it super strictly. So I, yeah, I very much enjoy that, and I enjoy the connection between Noah and Luke. I also appreciate, because there's something that we were trying to do with my play of just, like, embracing the sexuality in homosexuality. Like, it's.
- [99:27]
A
It's.
- [99:28]
B
It's not just chaste kisses, like in Love Simon or Heartstopper, much as I love it. They're like, there is a horniness to it, and tops and bottoms are a thing and size and like, and blowjobs are a thing. And it doesn't define you. It doesn't make you perverted, but it is a part of the experience and. And to talk about it openly and without any kind of. I don't want to say judgment, but, like, I don't know. I feel like so many times in romances when another sex comes up, it either has to be super playful and general, or it's got to be like, oh, this super overtly sexual character is actually, like, secretly kind of the villain because all they care about is sex. It's like, no, our. Our protagonist and our love interest can also be very sexual, but also, like, just Be fun, sweet people at the same time. Yeah, it's.
- [100:18]
A
It's funny. I, I toyed with how much, how far to go, and at one point I just sort of went like, really graphic and I was starting to get a little cringy and I was like, I don't know. So I gave it to my husband to read. I said, what do you think? He's like, well, it seems accurate. And I was like, accurate? What does that mean? Like, of course it's accurate. I know where the parts all go. I don't know.
- [100:39]
B
I've done this for a while.
- [100:41]
A
We've been together 30 years. I think you would know that I know where things go. But I said, no, but is it cringy? Like, do you want to know this much detail? And he's like, and maybe it's a little cringy. So it was, it was a sort of an experiment to see how much to show. And you know, there are, you know, I've read a ton of queer rom coms and there are ones that go like, very explicit and like. And I just realized that's a very different kind of book than what this is. So it just didn't fit with the tone. So I'm glad that you appreciated that the balance of that seemed right because it was really tricky. At one point I was going, how much is too much and how little is too little? So, yeah, that was that. That took a while to sort of titrate.
- [101:27]
B
Yeah. I view it as, as intimacy. How much about our. The. About the inner lives of our main characters do we want to know? Like, I don't need to know in I don't know, let's say common at the wind. Like what sexual position Scarlett o' Hara likes? I can. It's doggy style.
- [101:50]
A
I understand.
- [101:51]
B
No, she's. She's on top and she rides and you know it.
- [101:54]
A
I guess it's easy with the hoop.
- [101:56]
B
Well, I will say Scarlett, Scarlett o' Hara is either an over energetic bottom or a lazy bottom. There is no in between. You either just lies there or she takes full control. But I, you know, with Noah, we get enough about sort of what he's like sexually that I don't know, I think it's enough information for him, for Chase, for Luke, that it helps sort of explain more of their characters. With Luke, we learned that he's sort of the classic corporate dude in the sense that he dominates in business. And so when he's alone, he wants to be dominated, which is this.
- [102:33]
A
This.
- [102:34]
B
There's so many episodes of sex in the city that discuss the exact same thing, but that's straight culture, so it's allowed and it wins Emmys. And Luke had a much more confusing and curved path to his self acceptance. So a lot of his intimate times were with strangers via Grindr. So, like with Noah, it's a little trickier because it's someone he knows and it's a little more vulnerable. And I think that that's. It ties the emotion to the sex. So the sex can still be hot, but it's also attached to people we know. So. Yeah, it never felt. What's the word when you're, like, peeping in on other people's business? Voyeuristic. Voyeuristic.
- [103:19]
A
Yeah.
- [103:19]
B
I feel like, Yeah, I. I cannot stress enough how I've only had my one coffee today, so it didn't. It never felt voyeuristic. And I do think if we got to the part of the book where it was like. And then it went in, like, that's where we'd be like, okay. It's like, yes. We started with two fingers, then four. It's like, oh, okay. Like, that's another book. That's the bodice ripper that you can write next. And I'll read it cover to cover. Yeah. Is there. Is there a sequel to Showmance? He's got. He's got. He's working on another show at the end of the book.
- [103:55]
A
It's big question. I don't know. I mean, I. They asked me. The publishers asked me, and I said, I don't. I don't know. I. The one thing. I mean, I would have to throw some sort of monkey wrench into their relationship, which, you know, it's like, I don't know. I don't know if I want to do that. I. I think I have a way if. I think it depends on what the reaction is to the first book. You know, if it's sort of like, meh, then maybe not. You know, if it's. If it's positive, then. And people seem to want it, I think. I think I have a way to do it. But it's. It's very funny because in the Gunkle Broad, he at the beginning talks about, oh, sequels. Then you have to make up new problems. And, you know, and it's exactly what he's, you know, commenting on his own book. But it also. I was like, oh, yeah, no, I get it. You know, it's sort of. You have to prefabricate and screw up relationships to have them come back. Together again.
- [104:48]
B
Well, I think the sequel is where we finally have a major interaction with the twink with the plucked eyebrows. What's his face?
- [104:56]
A
Yes. Oh, he's. Oh, he's terrible. Alistair. No, he's awful.
- [105:01]
B
But we don't spend much time. I don't think we ever meet him in the book, do we? Like, we see him at the opening night party. Please refer to it. But I was like. I wanted a scene where they talk and Alistair is exactly as awful as we expect him to be. And we just. Mostly. Because I want to know his inner monologue to everything Alistair says.
- [105:19]
A
Right.
- [105:20]
B
So I think in the sequel, Alistair meets Luke. Alistair meets Luke and, like, sling, like, slings all up and down him. And we just watch Luke be, you know, marble, and he just falls off of him. I want that interaction. Not telling you what to write, but do that.
- [105:37]
A
No, that's a good note. I'll take it.
- [105:39]
B
Absolutely. So we have horrible people coming up. That's the music. That's the musical. This is your first completed book show.
- [105:48]
A
Yes.
- [105:50]
B
Sequel, for showmance aside, our dream casting of that aside, do you have other books on the horizon, perhaps?
- [105:57]
A
I have a couple of ideas that I've sort of done the same thing that I did with this, wrote a couple chapters, and then I'm putting them aside to see if I get drawn back to them. And I think I'm also sort of waiting to see how. What happens with this one. You know, like I said, it's. If it goes well, then I'll be very excited to write something else. If it sort of doesn't, then I'll be like, okay, well, tried that.
- [106:22]
B
We did. We did that today. That's fine.
- [106:24]
A
Yeah.
- [106:25]
B
Are you somebody who works on multiple projects at once? Sort of goes back and forth? I mean, Aladdin and Alpha side, but, like, have like three or four different things that you can work on at any given point or do you like to sort of go on one thing for a time?
- [106:37]
A
I like to go on one thing. You know, there are times when you have to, because there are different deadlines and you've got to work on stuff, but I. I'm happiest when it's just one thing. And I could just really focus all the brain cells on that.
- [106:51]
B
Sure, sure, sure, sure. I get that. I wish I could be like that. I get I have too much adhd. I'm like, I need four things. Because if I hit a roadblock on one, I'm like, oh, I'll go to this one. It's like this. It's, I guess, the writing equivalent of the shower principle. And it would be maybe more productive if I weren't as lazy as I am, but in theory, I should have four things complete right now, but I won't have them complete till the end of the year because I procrastinate. Like, it's. I'm getting paid for it.
- [107:18]
A
Well, you're. You're pre. Writing.
- [107:20]
B
Exactly. And I'm very. And I'm very busy with this extremely successful podcast that. I don't know if Broadway Podcast Network told you, but I. They kiss my feet every day for.
- [107:33]
A
Existing as they should.
- [107:36]
B
Yeah. Listen, they're. They're beautiful feet. Some people would pay money for pictures of them.
- [107:42]
A
Another side hustle, so you never know.
- [107:45]
B
Some people bartend while they try to get their stuff written. Some people sell pictures of their feet. It's all. It's all honorable, I say.
- [107:53]
A
Yeah.
- [107:53]
B
Chad, any other things about showmance that we didn't really get to talk about? We didn't really talk about Noah's mom. She's fun. I. I like her a lot.
- [108:02]
A
Yeah, no, she's. She's very much based on my own mother, who is. She's so unassuming. And then she'll say something completely mind blowingly profound and. And just. She's great.
- [108:17]
B
So.
- [108:18]
A
And she's. She's also. Her name is Nancy K. And I had her. She was the only one, other than my husband, that read a draft early on, and I said, you know, I'll change the name. She's like, oh, no, honey, I love it.
- [108:29]
B
So does your mom also not cook well?
- [108:31]
A
Oh, she's awful. We got. In high school, everybody called her the hot dog lady because you could only come to our house for dinner if she was making hot dogs. That was it. Anything else, you will ruin. That's. And she. The Crock Pot Pizza is a thing. Yeah. No, it's. Yeah. My husband Tom came home for Christmas the first time, and I was like, do not go into the kitchen Christmas morning. Just don't do it. And I was in the shower. I get out, I walk down, and he's standing there in the kitchen with a plastic cup filled with cottage cheese and pineapple, canned pineapple slices, and, like, trying to figure out how he's supposed to not offend my mother by not eating it. I was like, I told you. I told you. So. Yeah, she's. She's. And she knows. She. She owns it. She, you know, she recognizes it.
- [109:23]
B
That's fine. We love self awareness.
- [109:24]
A
Yes. Yes.
- [109:25]
B
Yes. And it helps make the world go around. Any other things from showmance that we haven't touched on that you'd really like to?
- [109:33]
A
No, I think we were. We were very comprehensive.
- [109:36]
B
Absolutely. And we talked about your favorite musicals and rom coms and books and shows you've worked on. We've talked about me a little bit, which I appreciate because I. That's me. Me is my favorite subject. Yeah. So, Chad, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
- [109:56]
A
I'm on Instagram at Chad Beg. And I also, you know, you could always check out my website, which is ChadBeglin.com and yeah, I mean, it's, it's. The book comes out October 1st, and after that I'm doing a book signing at the drama bookshop on October 3rd. If anybody's around for Mean Girls Day. It's also, it's also the day that they dropped season three of Heartstopper. So it's pretty. It's gonna be brutal. But from broadway.com is interviewing me and so it's. Should be fun.
- [110:33]
B
That'll be very fun. Okay, October 1st. It comes out October 3rd at Drama Bookshop. Maybe I'll stop by. I'll. It depends on whether I wake up that morning and watch Heartstopper or not, because I don't. Either I meet you in person for the first time, a complete anxious person ready to watch a season, or a broken person that I've who's watched Heartstopper Season 3 four times in a row before noon.
- [110:56]
A
I. Well, I, I understand the dilemma myself.
- [111:01]
B
Yes, it is. It is a major dilemma. If you want to follow me, guys, Instagram only at Matt Koplick Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, make sure to give us a nice 5 star rating or write a little review. Y' all have been killing it with these reviews lately and it always helps with the algorithm. The way I like to describe it is if you are unsure as to whether you really need to leave a review or put in a rating, think about it like Yelp or grubhub. You know, if you're trying to order Chinese food and you see 4.5 stars, but it's 3, 000 ratings. And then you see one that's 5 stars, but it's 12 ratings, you're gonna trust the 4.5 with 5, 000 ratings. So, you know, the more we get, the more people are going to be interested in listening to it. But you have been doing the thing. So just keep doing that and join the discord. Group if you want. It's going to be episode description for this that will also have the link to the fundraising page that we described in the first half of the episode. And that is it, Chad. We close out every episode in post with a nice audio of a Broadway diva. So who would you like to close out your episode of Broadway Breakdown? What Broadway diva would you like to play out?
- [112:10]
A
Oh, I think because it meant so much to Noah. Can we do Marin Maisie never go back to before?
- [112:19]
B
Absolutely we can.
- [112:20]
A
And then I'll just cry until I'm dehydrated.
- [112:23]
B
It's. What's. You know what's amazing is that not last week, but the week before, we closed out with Marin Macy doing I hate men from Kiss Me Kate. So this is like it's Marin Maisie appreciation month, which I am absolutely here for.
- [112:34]
A
Absolutely. Amen to that.
- [112:36]
B
Yeah. Not a day goes by that we shouldn't be appreciating Marin Maisie. All right, Marin Mazey this. Thank you so much, Chad. And I believe next week will be the beginning of our. Our new deep dive series, Grab Bag, where we're either covering American Psycho or the women, depending on scheduling, with. With guests. That is not. That's nothing that you need to worry about. That's a me thing. But so anyway, yes, next week will be the beginning of Grab Bag, so stay tuned for that. And that's it. Take it away, Marin. Bye.
- [113:04]
A
I was your wife it never occurred.
- [113:08]
B
To Once more.
- [113:12]
A
You were my sky, my moon and my stars and my ocean we can never go back to before we can never know Go back.
- [113:38]
B
To bed.