New Shows, Old Problems, Same Broadway w/ Rob Schneider

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown: "New Shows, Old Problems, Same Broadway"

Host: Matt Koplik | Guest: Rob Schneider

Release Date: November 16, 2023

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Main Theme

This episode serves as a passionate, unfiltered temperature check on the 2023-2024 Broadway season. Host Matt Koplik and guest Rob Schneider (of "Behind the Curtain: Broadway's Living Legends") dissect the current slate of shows, reflect on recurring Broadway problems, and debate what makes a show worthwhile in an era of standing ovations and risk-averse productions. The duo's caustic humor and deep love for theater fuel conversation about honesty, critical disappointment, and the hope for something truly special onstage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of the 2023-2024 Broadway Season

[06:48–17:09]

• Three buzzy “off-Broadway-with-Broadway-aspirations” titles:
  • Here We Are, The Great Gatsby, Hell’s Kitchen.
• All these shows are currently sold out; speculation about whether they'll transfer to Broadway.
• Hell’s Kitchen—consensus it’s going to Broadway; Alicia Keys musical, Michael Greif directing.
• Widespread trend: Every single major New York/regional show takes Broadway into consideration.
  • Matt: “No show Off-Broadway, regional, whatever, does not have Broadway in the back of its brain.” (08:03)

2. Audience Response and the devaluation of Standing Ovations

[13:00–16:00]

• Standing ovations now happen at every show, making them meaningless as an indicator of artistic quality.
  • Matt: “A standing ovation now is customary... not standing is the equivalent of old school booing.” (13:37)
• True test: Audience energy and attention during the show, not just curtain call enthusiasm.

3. The Critical Eye vs. Supportive Fandom

[44:34–48:20]

• Both hosts bemoan the loss of honest, tough criticism within the Broadway community and the rise of everyone “rooting politely” without demanding better.
  • Matt: “No one is holding anyone accountable on Broadway right now... we don’t have that Arthur Laurents, Elaine Stritch bone right now, ... to point them in the face and say: do better!” (44:34–45:19)
• Disconnect between online/fan positivity and honest appraisals:
  • Rob: “You go on social media—'show was great, oh my god, wonderful'—but then privately, ‘worst piece of shit I ever saw in my life.’” (45:19–45:27)
• Dangers of enabling weak work: If everyone raves about everything, audiences become confused, tickets stop selling, and mediocrity persists.

4. Trends: Jukebox & Adaptation Fatigue

[15:19–16:29]

• Debate over “hybrid jukebox musicals” (e.g., Hell’s Kitchen, Clueless).
  • Matt: “As long as the product is good, I don’t care about anything.” (15:29)
  • The real problem is when non-musical writers and pop stars approach theater without grasping the dramaturgical demands.

5. Authenticity vs. Formula in New Musicals

[27:15–28:24, 54:55–56:20]

• Gutenberg!: Fun because of actors' chemistry, but the score isn’t as sharp as the book; general consensus that many new musicals try to “manufacture” an event instead of being daring or specific.
• Back to the Future called “the laziest adaptation” in years (44:34); the issue isn’t being “bad” but not trying for art or originality: “Just fucking try.”

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Broadway Season Breakdown: New Shows, Upcoming Transfers, Predictions

[53:30–90:04]

Major New Musicals (and Transfers):

• Hell’s Kitchen – Predicted transfer to Broadway (likely at the Barrymore); mixed artistic prospects.
• The Great Gatsby (Paper Mill) – Unlikely to transfer after tepid reviews; despite hype and sellouts.
• Here We Are – Not expected to transfer.
• Operation Mincemeat – British original musical, highly praised and rumored to transfer.
• Harmony – Unlikely to run long; predicted to close by Spring unless bolstered by major investment.
• Lempicka – Critically acclaimed, high anticipation for Broadway debut.
• The Outsiders, The Notebook, Water for Elephants, Suffs, How to Dance in Ohio – All likely Tony contenders.

Anticipated Revivals:

• Mike Bartlett’s Cock (not mentioned in this episode)
• Merrily We Roll Along – Jonathan Groff's leading-actor Tony is "his to lose."
• Cabaret (with Eddie Redmayne) – divisive opinions, some hopeful for a fresh take, others skeptical of continued “razzle-dazzle, shock-value” revivals.
• Tommy (Nederlander Theatre) – strong advance word, box office should be solid.

Standouts Among Play Revivals:

• Pearly Victorious (Kenny Leon director); likely to take Best Revival of a Play.
• Doubt (with Tyne Daly and Liev Schreiber) – solid nomination prospects.
• Uncle Vanya (“Heidi Schreck" version) – curiosity but limited buzz.

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Notable & Memorable Quotes

• Matt (on Broadway’s risk-aversion):
  “We have talented people... intelligent people... but we don’t have that Arthur Laurents, Elaine Stritch bone. ...We’re all just holding hands going, ‘kumbaya, so happy for you!’...it’s hard to make a show, but you should want it to be great.” (44:34–45:19)

• Rob (on the culture of positivity):
  “You go on [Instagram]—‘wonderful show’—but then privately, ‘worst piece of shit I ever saw in my life.’” (45:27)

• Matt (on standing ovations):
  “A standing ovation now is customary...and a not standing is the equivalent of old school booing.” (13:37)

• Matt (on audience luxury):
  “People pay far too much money to sit in an uncomfortable chair where they can’t smoke, drink, cop a feel, to be not watching something that challenges them.” (47:01) – paraphrasing Elizabeth Ashley

• Rob (on the need for challenging plays):
  “Give me a play that says: This is why Donald Trump was the best president ever. Challenge me!” (97:54)

• Matt (on passion deficit):
  “Where’s the person who moved to New York with $10 and a dream, with a side hustle to be on that stage?... Where’s the passion?” (119:04)

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Predictions/Tony Buzz

Best Musical (Predictions)
Consensus among hosts for likely nominees:

• The Notebook
• The Outsiders
• Suffs
• Water for Elephants
• Lempicka
• (possible 6th slot: Operation Mincemeat or How to Dance in Ohio)

Best Leading Actor in a Musical

• Jonathan Groff (“Merrily We Roll Along”) widely seen as the frontrunner.
• Also strong: Chip Zien (Harmony), Brian D’Arcy James (Days of Wine and Roses), Eddie Redmayne (Cabaret), potential unnamed leads from The Notebook and Outsiders.

Best Leading Actress in a Musical

• Marianne Plunkett (The Notebook), Kelly O’Hara (Days of Wine and Roses), Eden Espinosa (Lempicka), Gayle Rankin (Cabaret), and possibly Lindsay Mendez (Merrily).

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Ongoing Broadway Problems

[Throughout]

• Artistic cowardice: too many adaptations, bio/jukebox shows, lack of daring new writing.
• “Star casting” in roles that don’t fit (e.g., Little Shop’s Seymour allegedly being cast as “Calvin Klein models”).
• Mediocre shows given raves by industry insiders, leading to audience disappointment and box office stagnation.
• Workshops/full-scale productions rushed to Broadway before they're ready; reluctance to delay/replace for the sake of improvement.

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Notable, Candid Exchanges & Memorable Sections

• The “Daddy Issues” Origin Story & Running Jokes:

  • Matt and Rob recount the scarring experience of meeting around the flop play "Daddy Issues" (03:29–06:46), using irreverent analogies and deadpan delivery.
  • Ongoing banter about Jennifer Simard, Shoshana Bean, and micro-celebrity politics.

• The “Honesty and Accountability” Manifesto:

  • The episode closes with a call to make this the "year of honesty" in show-going and in feedback.
    • Rob: “Let’s make this the year of honesty and accountability!” (126:33–126:35)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Dissecting Off-Broadway Contenders & Transfer Potential: [07:06–17:09]
• What Makes a Standing Ovation Meaningless: [13:00–16:00]
• Hell’s Kitchen & Problematic Jukebox Musicals: [12:13–16:29]
• State of Broadway Criticism/Accountability: [44:34–48:20, 126:33–127:02]
• Best Musical—Prediction Segment: [85:48–92:40, 120:12–122:43]
• What Broadway Needs Now—Final Manifesto: [119:04–121:14, 126:33–127:34]

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Episode Tone and Language

The hosts speak in a sharp, profane, but affectionate register, channeling classic gay wit, deep theater nerdery, and the insider candor of an offstage Broadway bar. Both delight in “calling it like they see it,” liberally critique “safe” production choices, and demonstrate encyclopedic knowledge of musical theater. Matt’s lightning-quick asides and Rob’s darkly comic deadpan create a lively, rant-filled—but loving—portrait of two passionate theater queens longing for Broadway to dare more and settle less.

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Closing Remarks

Matt and Rob sign off by challenging listeners and the community to be more honest and demanding, as both audience and creators. They hope for a season where "something truly excites"—and vow, in the meantime, to remain both supportive and unflinchingly honest.
“I want energy. I want excitement. I want something to make it feel real.” – Matt (128:19)

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For more, visit: bwaybreakdown.substack.com
Instagram: @koplik (Matt) | @robwschneider (Rob)
Hear Matt sing: 54 Below, December 7, 2023

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Transcript

[A]

Pick a little toggle Pick a little toggle Cheep, cheep, cheep Toccalop Pick a little more Pick a little toggle Pick a little toggle cheep Cheek cheep, Toccalop Pick a little more Pick a little toggle pickle Chocolate cheep, cheep, cheep chocolate Pick a little more Pick a little chocolate Pick a little chocolate cheep. Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. We are going to continue with our series, problematic shows you're mad at and their possible redemption. Before we jump into that series, which will start in earnest next week, we are doing a specialty episode to warm ourselves back up. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is another opinionated fag. You may know him from his work at 54 below, his work on his own podcast. What's the name of it?

[B]

54 Below doesn't even know my work from 54 Below.

[A]

54 Below wakes up each morning going, what did I do last night? Rob. Rob, what's your podcast name?

[B]

Can I ask you a question?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

When you do these, like, intros and stuff, am I supposed to look at you while you're doing it?

[A]

Everyone needs to look me in the eyes all the time.

[B]

I just looked away. I should. And I feel like that was rude.

[A]

No, you look me in the eyes when I'm. When I am doing.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

The nasty that I'm doing that.

[B]

I feel so uncomfortable right now.

[A]

I felt uncomfortable when Sondheim made me look him in the eyes while he took a shit on my chest. And they. And the name of that sex move is Here We Are.

[B]

Oh, and now it all comes full circle.

[A]

I wanna. I wanna see Here We Are and not like it so I can have my review be Here we Are. Are we here?

[B]

Wait, you haven't seen it yet?

[A]

No, I haven't. I'll see it. I'll see it.

[B]

If you've listened to any one of his other musicals, you've seen it.

[A]

Listen, my hot take is after 2000, Sondheim ran out of musical ideas, which is why Roadshow, the Frogs and probably Here We Are all sound the same. Yeah, it's. Yes. And I know that, like, a lot of Roadshow Bounce was starting in 99, and, like, he wrote some of the frogs in the 70s, but, like, all the good stuff from the Frogs is in the 70s, all the shit that was added for Lincoln center was 2004, and it sounds like roadshow.

[B]

You know what my biggest claim to.

[A]

Fame was for also, what's your name? And introduce yourself to the listeners.

[B]

Hi. Hi. My name is Matt Koplik, and I'm an opinionated fag. Did I do it right?

[A]

Yes. How do you. How else could you pronounce Matt Koplik?

[B]

Rob Schneider.

[A]

There you go. Rob, what's your other podcast name?

[B]

My other podcast is called behind the Broadway's Living Legends. We've been on the air for seven years. I should say we were. We don't do it anymore. We were on the air for seven years.

[A]

I know when people ask about Broadway podcast recommendations, a lot of people still say yours before they ever say mine. I'm like, mine's still running.

[B]

I know ours are retired and done, and we.

[A]

Well, you killed all your guests.

[B]

That was the problem, which was we were interviewing a lot of old people, and we were kind of like the grim reaper. Like, we. We showed up with our, like, YETI microphone, and they knew, like, make the last will and testament out. It's. People died on the show, but you know how professional they were. They continued on with the interview, and not a lot of people can say that.

[A]

And that's our history.

[B]

And that's our history. One time, Eileen Brennan was having an abortion.

[A]

No, sorry.

[B]

Can I tell this story?

[A]

No, don't tell this story. It's a great, though. Because no one knows who you're fucking impersonating.

[B]

Well, that was the problem with our show. That was our problem with our show, which is it was like, who are these people that are talking about.

[A]

So, Rob. Yeah, We. How did we first meet? Tell the listeners. Tell the children. How did we meet?

[B]

You want to tell them, like, the real story or what we came up with?

[A]

Let's tell them the clean PR story.

[B]

Okay, cool. Many years ago, friends, when I was in town, had. I just moved into the city. I can't remember. I got press tickets to a show called Daddy Issues. The show is called Daddy Issues. And there were a lot of issues. I don't know if Daddy was one of them, but there were a lot of issues in this particular play. But I swear to you, I will not forget. There was a young guy in the show who was the lead. And I was like, this guy is so fucking good because he's taking material. He's just elevating it. That's all I remember. That's all I remembered. I was like, this guy's really, really good. Didn't think about it for, I don't know, seven years. Yeah, seven years. But I swear to you, that's a true story. I remember this guy being, like, really good. Well, there was this horrible scene with a cat commercial.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, it's a recurring joke for sure. So Flash.

[B]

Yeah, sorry. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

So that. So that's. That's our prologue. That's our Valjean goes on parole prologue. Flash forward to Time is up.

[B]

Your parole's begun.

[A]

Flash forward to July of 2023. Rob and I are asked by friend of the pod, Charles Kirsch. Hey, baby. To literally baby. No, he's baby. I like to think that I'm baby. And then I talk to Charles. I'm like, you are half my age, Charles.

[B]

Half your age.

[A]

Yes. Point is, he asked both of us to be on a panel at BroadwayCon, which we did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was nice. And then we ran into each other again on a trivia night for dancers over 40 that Charles was hosting. Charles Kirsch just keeps on, like, throwing us together. He's like, you older gays who make me look like a fetus. You get together and you just die.

[B]

This is nice. In their sunset years, you meet Robbie.

[A]

Roselle, also friend of the pod and new friend, Janine Lamanna. At least new for me. Old friends.

[B]

Janine Lamont.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

No, no, icon.

[A]

Gertrude McPhuzz herself. Janine Lamanna. We are all texting during the.

[B]

It still sounds the same.

[A]

Absolutely. And I'm sure it can still kick face and Cooter slam. Like in drowsy Chevron.

[B]

Yes. God, she's so talented.

[A]

But she. The four of us started a group chat after that. After that night.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I came over to your apartment with Robbie for, like, a drinking night.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I. And you look at me. You look at me that night. No, not just now, but like that night, the night I'm at your apartment, you look at me from your couch with. It's like that kid in Hook who's about to pull Robin Williams face back and say, there you are, Peter. You look at me and your first question is, do you act? And I go, I used to act. I have my card still, but I don't really perform anymore. I go, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh. And then like 10 minutes later, you.

[B]

Go, do you sing?

[A]

And I go, yeah, I sing. And you're like, okay, good to know, good to know. And then about 20 minutes later, you come back again, you look at me again. You just go with Your Barbara Walters gay ass face. And, like, I'm about to ask you the hook question, and you go, were you in a play called Daddy Issues? I went, do you remember what my face was when you asked me this?

[B]

Yeah, it was frozen. Frozen with shock.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Truly, it was. How did you find the body?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like.

[B]

It was like an Agatha Christie.

[A]

Yeah. Well, also, because that play was such garbage, and I don't look back on my time fondly with it just because, like, it was a bad experience with the writer, director, everyone in the casting. The material wasn't good. And we tried, but, like, it was an uphill climb. And it took, really, until the end of the run for any of us to feel like we did anything with it. But we're not talking about daddy issues because that's not part of the 2023, 2024 at Broadway season.

[B]

Rob, are you sure?

[A]

I mean, rumors abound. No, we're talking about this current Broadway season. We've got some shows that have opened.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Already closed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Some shows that are in previews. About to open.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Some shows about to go into previews. Some shows that. We have to wait a little bit. Some shows that have just announced and a couple of shows that have announcements coming.

[B]

Yes. This is a very exciting time for all of us.

[A]

Yes. It's very packed for all of us, for sure. So, Rob, what of this season have you seen so far? Of the Broadway?

[B]

What have I seen so far? What a great question. Now, wait a minute. This. Does here we are. Count as Broadway? No. Okay, great. Unless it's transferring, I don't think it's gonna transfer.

[A]

I don't think it is either.

[B]

I really don't.

[A]

I really think it's gonna end in January.

[B]

I don't know if you felt the same way, but my feeling on that show was when they were like, oh, we're gonna do it at the Shed, and. And you can become a seasoned subscriber so everyone can get in early. I was like, at noon. Whenever these things are gonna go on sale, every fucking queen in America is gonna, like, get on this site and crash it. Grindr will be very free. But, like, this site's gonna crash and nothing.

[A]

Yeah, they still.

[B]

I don't think they're even still sold out at this point. So this is the last Stephen Sondheim musical with this cast.

[A]

I know. Well, so here's the thing. I truly think that no show off Broadway, regional, whatever, like, does not have Broadway in the back of its brain.

[B]

Oh, of course.

[A]

So, of Course, especially with this production with an 8, I think it's like 8 million dollar capital, something like that. And with this company, and it was John Mantello directing it, like, they. I definitely think Broadway was a possibility.

[B]

Oh, of course.

[A]

But they also knew what they had and, like, didn't want to set anyone up for thinking, like, what we have is this masterpiece, final product, whatever. They were kind of trying to temper our expectations in hopes that it would be this event.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, it is one of three shows this season that are not Broadway, that have Broadway sort of circling around them. And we'll see what happens. One is Here We Are. One is Great Gatsby at Paper Mill and one is Hell's Kitchen at the public. And we will get to all three. It'll be very quick. I saw Hell's Kitchen this afternoon. By the time this episode comes out, my review will probably be out. And Here We Are has officially opened.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Great Gatsby has opened.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now Great Gatsby and Hell's Kitchen both are sold out for their runs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Granted, you know, we're talking a month, five weeks at Great at Paper Mill. We're talking two months at the public. And I mean, here we are. It's like a. Almost four month run at the Shed.

[B]

Yeah, they're there for a while. Yeah.

[A]

Hell's Kitchen at the public of the Newman. It's 300 seats, maybe like a handful of seats under that Paper Mill. It's like what, 1200 seats? Something like that. Yeah. So, you know, for those shows to sell out for the number of seats that they have. Impressive.

[B]

Actually, Paper Mill might be more than 1200.

[A]

Possible.

[B]

Yeah. It's a big theater. It's a cavern.

[A]

Well, it's. The mezzanine is very small, which is why I'm not sure exactly how much it seats. Because it's a big orchestra.

[B]

It is a huge orchestra. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, yes. But with Paper Mill, everyone kept talking about how Gatsby is sold out. It's got, you know, all these people working on it with Broadway pedigrees, like, clear, like. And the producer even openly said at the first preview, like, we hope to go to Broadway.

[B]

Oh. Like you said, I cannot think of a production running right now in the New York Tri State area that does not have their sights on Broadway.

[A]

Yeah, well, because that's where the most money can be. That is where all the attention goes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And like, even if you run for a week, you can still say the Broadway show and people will, oh, how.

[B]

Many shows do we know that have done that knowing fully. Well, they wouldn't be running very long just to have that monster.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So wait now you haven't seen Gatsby?

[A]

I haven't. And honestly, I don't think I ever will.

[B]

I listened to it.

[A]

I watched the rehearsal clips.

[B]

Yeah. Who listens to this, by the way?

[A]

Weirdly, a lot of people.

[B]

They're live broadcasting in Times Square as we speak.

[A]

Weirdly, a lot of people, Rob, listen to this.

[B]

Here we are backstage. They're all.

[A]

What people like about this podcast, I have learned, is it's very honest. It's very loosey goosey.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I love that we do talk about, you know, important things and sense of theater, not the world. But, you know, we try to talk about things intelligently while also, you know, making butt stuff, jokes and talking about Judy Kunin and how she's one of the best voices that's ever happened.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And agreed.

[A]

And as we're. This is good. Warm up for everyone as we go into problematic because I've recorded three episodes of that already and like, it's the show you all know and love. It's. It's a lot. It goes all over the place. We go on tangents. Like, welcome back to the Breakdown. You know. You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, I was gonna say, I mean, the show is fantastic. I love listening to it. I was just curious. I have listened to it. I know you do a thing where you talk about Broadway and people geek.

[A]

Out and they go, I'm having a breakdown.

[B]

And they go, I'm having a breakdown. This is famous breakdowns throughout Broadway history. Which takes me back to Eileen Brennan.

[A]

Do you want to tell the listeners who you're in person?

[B]

No.

[A]

No, no, we're not doing that.

[B]

No. If you listen to my podcast, you know who he is. In memoriam.

[A]

Every day you'll drag Eileen Brennan's abortion through than mud, but you won't tell people who the living showed up to.

[B]

Perform and they put in a new verse of motherhood march that night. And that's professionalism.

[A]

And that's our history.

[B]

And that's our history. Okay, sprite, dear.

[A]

Moving on, guys. The stories that Rob and I could.

[B]

Tell you saw Meryl Louise get a plate job. Now, if you don't know what that is, I'll take you to the Eagle and show you. But it's our history.

[A]

Stop it. Stop it. Okay, so we. This is all to come back to just the scene.

[B]

Leave a small fist of me.

[A]

Shut the fuck up. We were talking About Gatsby we were talking about Here We Are. Are we here at Hell's Kitchen? The little bit I'll say about Hell's Kitchen. First of all, Gatsby not coming in here we are not coming in Hell's Kitchen. Open secret that it's going to Broadway?

[B]

Yeah, of course. Alicia Keys.

[A]

Alicia Keys. Michael Greif sold out for his public run. I'll be very interested to see what happens with the reviews for it. There have been some online.

[B]

Why do you say that?

[A]

Well, just because I think if the reviews for Gatsby were kinder, that would. They would be working hard about coming in. I think if the reviews for Here We Are were a little more effusive, they would probably experiment with the idea of coming in. Because you, you know, people talk about with like, oh, it Gatsby. Oh, if you go to the paper mill, people are jumping to their feet and roaring with applause.

[B]

Oh, I've seen it. I've seen it.

[A]

First of all, can you name me a single musical you that you have seen in the last 10 years where that didn't happen with the audience?

[B]

No, it's true. It's true. Yeah, I'm trying.

[A]

Yeah. It just happens with everything. So when people tell me, like, oh, well, the audience leapt to their feet and they were having the grandest of all times, I'm like, that doesn't. That's not enough for me anymore. Shows are too expensive. It's. So it's time out of my life. I can't get back. I'm not trusting an audience. I have to trust myself.

[B]

I think we just need to accept the fact that, like, a standing ovation now is customary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, it just happens and then. And a not standing is the equivalent of old school booing.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

That's. That's what I think we're.

[A]

Now, here's, here's where I'm at. Based off of my time with Hell's Kitchen, you have to judge how the audience is responding in the moment.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The. The final, like the curtain call means nothing. What are they doing during the show? Because I'll tell you this with Hell's Kitchen. I'll tell you this with Hell's Kitchen for most of that two and a half hour show on. On that Saturday, on Sunday, matinee. I should say it was a very tepid response, I can tell you. Two numbers that got wild applause. The Act 1 finale with Keisha Lewis, who, you know, sang like it was the Act 1 finale of Ragtime and it was just her at that piano. And of course, Gripe was like, put some projections behind her because she can't sell this on her own. And I'm sitting there going, no, Gay. She can.

[B]

She's Keisha Lewis.

[A]

She's fucking Mama will provide. She can do it. Yeah, just let her do it. He also has her stand up from that piano way too soon. But that's. That's me sitting there being directorial eye. It truly is. Truly is. That was the first one. And the second one was Shoshana Bean's Act 2 number, where she tells off Brandon Victor Dixon, a number that should be cut, but she sings the Boots House down on it. The audience goes crazy.

[B]

Like Saturday night.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the. And I think I was telling you this before we went on air the first act. I think Shoshana has. She has two numbers, neither of which are terribly good, but, you know, she's Shoshana, so she's girlfriend has not met a melisma she can't surf to shore. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which I wrote down on my phone for my future review.

[B]

Yes. Great.

[A]

She's never met a melisma that she can't surf safely to shore.

[B]

Now, is this a jukebox musical or is it all.

[A]

No, it's. It's. It is mostly. It's. It's hybrid. It's mostly jukebox with, I think, four new Alicia Key songs.

[B]

I don't know how I feel about hybrid jukebox musicals. Is that weird to say?

[A]

I don't care. As long as the product is good, I don't care about anything.

[B]

Did you say clueless? I didn't, but I was weird as fuck.

[A]

Well. Cause that was jukebox. But new lyrics.

[B]

It was so bad. Yeah, that. That idea. That idea.

[A]

But again, it's a bad idea when it doesn't work. If someone comes up with something that's good. Good or campy or fun. Like if they did Xanadu with Douglas Carter Bean coming up with campy lyrics for all the original. Yeah. And it worked. Like, we'd be like, what a fucking stroke of genius. But Amy Heckerling's not a lyricist.

[B]

Yeah. She wrote.

[A]

She wrote an amazing screenplay in 1995.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she should have had. It's a wonderful example of economy in writing. But she's not a theater writer. And that's sort of the problem with fucking Hell's Kitchen. The librettist is a playwright who doesn't do musicals. Alicia doesn't do musicals. She wrote four songs for this thing. And the Rest of the songs that have nothing to do with any plot whatsoever, they all feel shoehorned in. But my point is, again, all this type of response behind those two numbers. And then the finale is Empire State of Mind. Right? That's the name of her concrete jungle song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there are two different Empire State of Mind songs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, no. There's New York State of Mind and then Empire State of Mind. I'm in a New York Billy Joel. Yeah, exactly. And then Empire State of Mind. And that's the finale with the whole company. And it's a wonderfully talented cast. And Tom Kitt does most of the arrangements. And when he's arranging other people's music, he does a lovely job, gal. And so, like, it ends and everyone just jumps to their feet and I'm like, yeah, but for the preceding two hours and 30 minutes, you were not. This.

[B]

That seemed. That's like a big pet peeve of mine recently, which is like. It's like, bookend directing or like, we'll give them a great opening and we'll give them a great closing, and we hope to God they don't remember anything else in between. And I'm like, people will remember.

[A]

Which leads us to what's currently on Broadway.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Of the season so far.

[B]

Lucy DeVito, Pulitzer Prize.

[A]

I will fucking shoot you in the face.

[B]

Teresa Rebeck's I Owned that. What's it called? I Need that.

[A]

No, this is how you pronounce it. Theresa Rebecks. I Need that. Starring Danny DeVito, which I will go see. Because I'm gonna try and see everything this season. Because I saw. I saw everything last season.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think I saw everything the season before.

[B]

Look at you.

[A]

I didn't see Skeleton Crew. That was the one thing I didn't see the season.

[B]

You are. You are, like, dedicated.

[A]

Well, I've been very fortunate. I get invited to a lot of stuff.

[B]

Who invites you?

[A]

Tony voters and other.

[B]

How come no one invites me?

[A]

Why don't you invite me?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There we go. No, I. I've been fortunate to get invited to a lot of stuff. And then I'll rush whatever I don't get invited to.

[B]

Very smart.

[A]

Because I have. I have Tony voter friends. I have critic friends, and I ask them well in advance to bring me along to the things I can't afford.

[B]

The National Critics Circle told me I couldn't be a member.

[A]

I know that. The Drama League told me I couldn't be a member because I was gonna sink their voting pool. What? They said, we are gonna Give Annaleigh Ashford the Distinguished Performance of the Year award, and you are going to badmouth to the voters. So it goes to fucking Stephen McKinley Henderson. And I said that's who it should have gone to.

[B]

Yes. Stephen McKinley Henderson's a fucking genius, a legend.

[A]

If you're gonna give it to Annalee, give it to Annalee for Legally Blonde. Give it to her for fucking. You can take it with you. Don't give it to her for Sweeney.

[B]

You're still not over that, are you?

[A]

No. No. What? I'm really not over. I'm not over Sweeney winning. Sound design.

[B]

You didn't like the sound design?

[A]

Who did?

[B]

I don't know. I'm just asking. You didn't.

[A]

The sound designers who voted for it at the Tonys liked it. Sound design. Literally everyone else, including people who know nothing about sound design, were like, why did the orchestra sound like a million miles away?

[B]

Ah, okay.

[A]

Of the season.

[B]

Yes. Going back to the season. I'm sorry.

[A]

I started with Once Upon a One More Time.

[B]

Once Upon a One More Time.

[A]

Yep. Back to the Future. Here Lies Love. Which is closing.

[B]

What?

[A]

They haven't announced yet, but it's closing. Oh, no. Yeah, No, I know. They were. They were gonna close, and then they got.

[B]

Was it when they got rid of 400 seats? Well, now it just doesn't matter because no one's buying the seats anyway.

[A]

Yeah, No, I know. It's a shame. It's Here Lies Love. We'll talk about it. Here Lies Love. Back to the Future. Once Upon a One More Time. I saw Gutenberg. I saw the Cottage Gray House, the Shark Is Broken, Pearly Victorious. Ja Ja's African Hair Braiding. That's the most recent thing I saw. And then Off Broadway, obviously. Health Kitchen, and I can get it for you wholesale.

[B]

What is the Off Broadway voice? Is there a separate voice for Off Broadway?

[A]

Health Kitchen?

[B]

Hell's Kitchen. I can get it for you wholesale. Like, what is that?

[A]

And then I'm seeing Titanique for the fourth time. Oh, God, I am so glad Titanique is not on Broadway. I'm so glad it's off Broadway and that it's doing as well as it is.

[B]

There are some shows that should stay off Broadway, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[A]

I'm so glad the little shop just is staying at home.

[B]

It's brilliant.

[A]

I wish they would cast people who are actually Seymour, not Calvin Klein models, but, you know, what have you.

[B]

Well, that's still. That makes no sense to me.

[A]

Whatever. Michael Mayer. Love you, dear. You've done some Wonderful work. Your work on Little Shop is nice. Must you keep casting your Spring Awakening, Bonnie and Clyde, High School Musical motherfuckers.

[B]

To believe that nobody would fuck this guy. You've done every fucking urchin and Mushnik is looking at him going, yeah, I.

[A]

Would let him do it. I let him get me pregnant. That production does a much more interesting job with casting their Audrey's than they do with their Seymours.

[B]

Yes, the Audreys have been fantastic. Who have been going through.

[A]

Yeah, well, not only. Like, even if you don't love them, like, they're. They're fascinating choices. Like Tammy, Constance, Joy. Like just Lena, Maude, like, just brilliant, interesting choices.

[B]

And every single one, you go. I would never have thought of that.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Whoever that casting director is, honestly, I don't know who you are. Kevin Chamberlain, Janine Lamana, Seussical Reunion. They're older. Seymour and Audrey are older individuals.

[A]

Here's how I want to tell the people. Little Shop, whoever you're thinking of, for Mushnik, stop it. That's your Seymour.

[B]

That's. I love that. I would see Brad Oscar play Seymour in a second.

[A]

In a fucking heartbeat.

[B]

Who? Okay, let's.

[A]

I would kill you.

[B]

You could see.

[A]

So I could see Kevin.

[B]

Okay, so I know how you feel about me.

[A]

Let me rephrase that. As that is.

[B]

I would kill you, period.

[A]

Period.

[B]

Just to get a hot dog. Like, the bar is very low at this point.

[A]

I'm bored. I'm bored. I'll kill you.

[B]

I'm bored by you. I'm bored by you. You've offered nothing to this contribution, nothing to this conversation. So I'm done with you. Well, starting in my life.

[A]

On that note.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let's take a quick break.

[B]

Where are we going?

[A]

Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the pink. And we're back. All right. Oh, I have. I have a commercial that I got into. I have dollars and dollars to make.

[B]

I'm so sorry. I just have. When you have as many episodes as I do at my podcast, we just have a Broadway podcast network. Just drop in a commercial when you.

[A]

Have as many Tony nominees slipping into your DM asking to see that hole as I do.

[B]

Who. Who? Who slipped in asking for your hole? Are you gonna mouth it? Mouth it. Who is it?

[A]

Well, let me tell you my journey. They slip in assuming that I'm a power bottom and Then I surprise them by telling them I'm actually a power verse because I get bored very easily, so I need to do either one or the other. And bo very difficult, and I'm lazy by nature, and I don't want to practice ever.

[B]

So then you'd be a fantastic bottom.

[A]

No, you gotta practice to be a bottom.

[B]

Well, no, you could just lay there if you're lazy.

[A]

No, but you gotta practice with the stretching girl.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some of us don't know this.

[A]

Is in control of your colon. Can you believe that Charles Kirsch's mom lets him listen to this podcast?

[B]

Remy, what's happening? Remy.

[A]

Charles, you must ask your mother. Mummy, why?

[B]

Charles.

[A]

Young man, I need parental control.

[B]

Charles, pause this. Pause. All American. Go to ask your mom if you can continue listening to this.

[A]

Charles, do you listen to All American?

[B]

He does. Can I tell you something? I was at his bar mitzvah, and that was my gift to him. An original poster from All American. Once Upon a Time.

[A]

No. Shh.

[B]

So, all right. It works back up. He doesn't want it.

[A]

These are the shows I've seen this season. What have you seen this season? On Broadway.

[B]

Okay. I have seen. Going back. Run through the list. Once Upon a One more Time.

[A]

You have seen that?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Heroize Love on Broadway.

[B]

Does that count? Does that count?

[A]

Sort of. So you haven't seen it on Broadway with Ariel? You only saw.

[B]

No. Unless they made a lot of changes. Have they?

[A]

No, it's just bigger. And, you know, Ariel's not Ruthie.

[B]

Oh, you know, here's.

[A]

Women are not interchangeable.

[B]

Rob, I. Despite what you say at robwshneider, women are not interchangeable. I loved it off Broadway.

[A]

Everyone did.

[B]

I loved it off Broadway. Once again, there is nothing wrong with keeping something off Broadway if it. If the intimacy is helping the storytelling.

[A]

I heard nothing but raves from off Broadway. Also off Broadway. They had the buzz and the momentum.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They. They. We'll talk. We'll talk about it.

[B]

Trying to make a Beat it, too. I get it. Yep.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

And then what was. What was after that?

[A]

Back to the Future.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Gutenberg.

[B]

I haven't seen Gutenberg. And I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't want to be the person that judges something before not seeing it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I am not the hugest fan of, like, we're doing a musical. Sure. Wink, wink, wink. We're doing a show. You get it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know if that's what it is. That's how it's been described to me, it's just not. It's not what I enjoy. Because to me, I'm like, that's the easiest laugh.

[A]

It's yes and no.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The. The running gag of Gutenberg is that Rannel's and Gad's characters, who are aspiring musical theater writers and who are brilliant.

[B]

Individuals on their own, and they.

[A]

They make a very good team in this. Their characters are bad at writing, but they love musical theater.

[B]

Fabulous.

[A]

And so it's not necessarily about, like.

[B]

I know a lot of writers this applies to, but it's not.

[A]

It's not necessarily, like, isn't musical theater weird so much as, like, aren't these guys bad at it? Which is a gag that can only have so much.

[B]

I was gonna ask you. So listening to bad songs all evening, like, is that it?

[A]

It's.

[B]

And doesn't that wear thin? I'm just asking. I don't know. Maybe it. Maybe it's brilliant. I don't know.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I saw Yellow Hats.

[A]

Yeah, y'. All. Welcome back to Breakdown, where we had a structure and then we just went off on our own thing. So having seen Gutenberg.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let me start with the positives.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Reynolds and Gad are great.

[B]

Great.

[A]

They are a wonderful duo. I forget sometimes that Andrew Reynolds is a really good, funny dude.

[B]

I thought he was genius in the prom movie. He is very funny.

[A]

He's one of the better performances in that movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have a long list of notes about that movie.

[B]

You don't like that movie?

[A]

Yes, I don't. I touch on it in the. In our next week's episode, which, spoiler alert, is the prom.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which I didn't realize many people had problems with until I asked the fandom, what shows do you consider problematic? And a few people said, the Prom.

[B]

I'm gonna. I'm listen to this because I'm wondering what. I'm wondering if what they find problematic is what I find problematic.

[A]

I digress. But in Gutenberg with him and Gad, I was like, oh, right. Like, you're fucking great. Like, there's a reason why you popped so hard in Mormon and why you and Gadd in particular, like, of that entire original company went to Hollywood and fucking flew.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they, like. They make it work. And it's good Timbers material because it's not heartfelt, really. Because Timbers doesn't do emotion well. Timbers also doesn't really do, like, humanity. Well. He does inventive storytelling really well. And he does. And he does. He actually does comedy pretty well, but because it's just Gad and Rannels, like, their chemistry and their work as actors help sell the material. And Timbers comes up with some cool staging. And the book is funny. It's genuinely funny. And, like, it's not cynical because their characters genuinely love theater and they genuinely want to do a good job. Where it falters is. It's a little long. It's two hours with an intermission.

[B]

No, no, it should be.

[A]

It should be a hundred minutes. No intermission.

[B]

No, give me 80.

[A]

Yeah, give me 80 or 80. Yeah. And tighter. Tighter. Tighter, tighter. And also, it's. The score, in my opinion, is not nearly as funny as the book, and I wish it were. You know, it's really hard to write a funny score. There are some shows that have been able to do it. I mean, even.

[B]

What score do you find the funniest out of, like, all the Broadway musicals which score you. This still makes me laugh.

[A]

I wonder. I do wonder. I think the Mormon score is genuinely funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that's. That's. It's hard to find a score funny after years. I'll find certain movies still funny, but not a score after a while, like, it loses the comedic luster. Because part of what makes comedy so. What makes comedy land so hard is the surprise, the unexpected of it.

[B]

Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, I think still holds up. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That score slaps and it's so funny.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he is a comedy writer.

[A]

He is.

[B]

And that is a rare gift.

[A]

You know who's a really good comedy writer is Adam Schlesinger.

[B]

Yes. Also a brilliant.

[A]

Absolutely brilliant mind rip. But yeah, yeah. Like, when it was announced that Yazbek was doing a score for a musical version of Soap Dish, I was like, absolutely.

[B]

Oh, who else would you want?

[A]

I know. I think he never was attached to Death becomes Her at any point, was he?

[B]

Not that I'm aware of. I know he was. Maybe he's still attached to Princess Bride. I think he's still on that one.

[A]

Well. Because he's more productive than Gettle, but moving on. But that's Gutenberg for you. It's fun. I think they are in contention for nominations. The problem is that I don't see a world where one of them gets nominated and the other doesn't. Watch me say that and then come.

[B]

Would they want to do that thing where they're, like, together.

[A]

No, I don't think they're gonna do a Skinner Ripley sideshow joint nomination. I'm saying, like, it's difficult to nominate Andrew Reynolds. And then not also do a nomination for. For GAD because they are so together.

[B]

They're tight.

[A]

They're so tight.

[B]

They're a unit.

[A]

But also, like I will say, I don't think leading actor in a musical is as competitive a race as some online folks would have you believe for this season. Here's who we got so far.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Reynolds and GAD for Gutenberg.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What's his face from Back to the Future? The kid. Yeah. Who's perfectly fine, but he needs to not do another musical based off of movie. Pronto Groff and Merrily, who at the moment is the. Who is the front runner right now. But we've also got coming up in the spring, Brian Darcy James in Days of Wine and Roses, who I saw do it at the Atlantic and we'll talk about it.

[B]

Nomination.

[A]

Yeah, they both will. I think that musical is rough, to be perfectly honest.

[B]

I'm gonna be honest with you. Full disclosure, I have not seen that. But when they said that's the source material being turned into a musical, I thought, how are you? Why?

[A]

Well, it is a bummer of a. Of source material. I also just don't think the show is ready.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I found it. Very first draft.

[B]

Have you ever seen the movie?

[A]

Yes, I watched the movie after I watched the movie after I saw the show.

[B]

Jack Lemmon in that. Holy fuck, is so good.

[A]

They're both amazing.

[B]

Lee Remick, the two of them. Yes.

[A]

First of all, Jack Lemmon, one of the best screen actors of all time.

[B]

Oh, my God. I'm gonna go one step further.

[A]

Say the best.

[B]

Not one of the best. The best. The best male on camera actor.

[A]

When I say one of, I truly mean, like top five of all time. Of hundreds of thousands of screen actors who've ever screen acted. He's. He's in the top five. But Brian Darcy James.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

Absolutely Gonna get nominated. Both of them are wonderful. In a show that I think is still truly on its first draft. Grant Gustin just got announced for Water for Elephants, which I only saw 20 minutes of in a presentation. A lot of potential. I hope they make some really powerful changes on it because it can be really dynamite.

[B]

Okay. I'm excited.

[A]

I don't know the dude who's playing the oldest Noah in Notebook and if he's gonna be considered lead.

[B]

Oh, yeah. This guy's like, isn't he like, he's back on Broadway after like 30, 40 years or something like this because he.

[A]

Went to Hollywood and played like small roles in TV and film forever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm sure he's gonna be eligible because we'll talk about the Notebook in.

[B]

A second, but can we agree this is Jonathan Groff's to lose?

[A]

At the moment it's Groff's to lose because then there's also Eddie Redmayne for Cabaret.

[B]

When did Cabaret go from like, this is a story about political inaction to here's my dick in your face, Sam Mendes. But every production after that, that's all it is. Every production I see, it's like, here are my tits and here's my ass and here's my dick. And I'm like, what about the story? Well, do I have a story want to tell Rob? It's like they get through those book scenes to be like, show me more dick, show me more tits.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, now get Frau Schneider out of there real fast.

[A]

Yeah, let's, let's make it even more shocking because the Mendy's production was shocking at the time.

[B]

Yes, at the time, but.

[A]

But also it came from a text based place and there was.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And there was still story to have. You go to the fucking Lincoln center library. You, you watch that 98 cast with Natasha Alan, One of the best cast of all time, by the way.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Fucking stacked. I think I talked about this. No, I didn't talk about this on the pod. I can't remember. I've. I've had so many recordings this weekend and then like just Drinks with friends this weekend.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I'm like, I don't know what I said with friends and what I said on the pod, but someone was asking me about the 98 Cabaret and they're like, oh, how is that cast? At the library, I was like, stacked. Well, my God, it's like, it's one of the most incredible casts ever assembled. You have Natasha Richardson, Alan Cumming, Ron Rifkin, who wins a Tony for this performance.

[B]

Mary Louise Wilson.

[A]

Mary Louise Wilson, like, kind of coming back after a minute.

[B]

Benjamin Hickey.

[A]

John Benjamin Hickey. Post Love Valor, Compassion, Pre Normal Heart. Michelle Pak, Pre Seussical and Hollywood Arms. Dennis o' Hara before I think anyone ever knew who he was.

[B]

No, no, that's true. That's very true. Nobody knew.

[A]

Just those personally directed by Sam Mendes and Rob Marshall before Hollywood ruined him.

[B]

It is, it is such a, a good production. And now every single one after that is like, how many track marks can we get on the girls? Where's the story?

[A]

Well, because that's what everyone remembers from the, from the Mendy's one. And now that production was so impactful of how we all view cabaret.

[B]

Now, the MC shouldn't be sexy. The mc. Okay, well, this is one where I get real pissed.

[A]

Go for it.

[B]

No, I'm just saying, like, do the fucking story as written. What you're trying to create is something that does not exist because now you've lost what the fuck the story's about.

[A]

Yeah. Well, so here's what I will argue about what Mendy's did, which Hal Prince hated, because there was what Hal Prince did, what the movie did, what Mendy's did, and now what everyone does, which is originally, it was sort of a. The beauty of Razzle Dazzle and the, like, monstrosity of the world.

[B]

You're talking about how Princess, are you saying?

[A]

So that's how we start, right? Like, we have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sally in the cabaret and the KK Club. And, like, here life is beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And outside it's awful.

[B]

Okay, you go ahead. Huh?

[A]

And eventually the two start to clash and neither one can really fully exist. And then it's like, well, which one ends up taking over? You've been entertained for two and a half hours. But, like, don't forget that, like, World War II happened.

[B]

But the story originally is. It's the story of Cliff and Sally and these MC things they're commenting on, which to me means they're secondary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now it's like, well, no, that's primary.

[A]

Well, so then what we have is the movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which gets rid of so much.

[B]

And. No. No book numbers. They're all gone.

[A]

Yes. It's just the Kit Kat Club numbers. And then, like, Frau Schneider and Herr Schultzer are gone. It's a whole new B plot. And the movie is very good.

[B]

How would they get rid of Jack Guilford?

[A]

Jack Guilford? Erasure is one of the most hateful things you could do, in my opinion. Such a sweetheart who I never met. But, like, you just look at his face and you go, I want to just hug you.

[B]

I want to hug you.

[A]

I just want to hug you, Jack. But is even colder than the stage show.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Sleazier than the stage show. And then also more rasmataz on the stage show because you have Liza belting her vagina off. You've got Joel Gray, who's even more, like, in your face.

[B]

Creepy.

[A]

Yep. And. And then it becomes the Joel Gray show. Like the 80s. That revival happens and it's. Joel Gray is in Cabaret. Mendy's comes in that full productions on.

[B]

YouTube, by the way.

[A]

Oh, I know, I know. Mendy's comes in in the 90s with a don Mar a year after the Nationals, Carousel. So we have the 90s trend of dark versions of Golden Age musicals.

[B]

You just mentioned Carousel. Have you gotten an erection at this point?

[A]

I fully came, of course. But. But. And we talked about this at the Carousel episode. Spoiler alert, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

The 90s was a golden age of revival.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

But also, there was a trend that eventually died out, but we're still kind of seeing it from time to time of the. Let's look at an old musical. Dark. And, you know, the difference is Heitner was like, I did not say let's make Carousel dark. He's like, I read the script and went, fuck, this is dark.

[B]

Yes. Which is. Yes. Which is very good.

[A]

Exactly. He's like. He's like, it'd be different if, you know, like, I read fucking Flower Drum Song. That's not nearly as dark. Or Sound of Music. But, you know, people were like, oh, but of course, Guys and Dolls Dark. And it's like, no. Fucker.

[B]

Can I tell you the worst production of Guys and Dolls I ever saw?

[A]

The Des Macanough one.

[B]

Oh, oh, sorry. Can I tell you the second worst production I ever saw? It was at this regional theater in Los Angeles, and they literally started the show with a warning about what to do if you have a gambling addiction.

[A]

That's like when Diane Paulus 1776 happened, and they all came on stage and they said, we recognize that this production is happening on the grounds of, like, of land that we stole from the Native Americans.

[B]

Yeah, well, you don't like it, you can move.

[A]

There was some fucking sketch where they. They. Some sketch online where they made fun of this, where it was like a theater company. Like, we recognize, blah, blah, Native Americans, and we stole it from them. And some of the audience goes, so, should we leave?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they go. And they're not being mean. They're like, we leave then, right? They're like, what are you talking about? Well, we're on stolen land. Like, we. We're. We're. We should leave. This is not our home. We should leave. Like, no, no, stay. Like, oh. They're like, oh, so all the proceeds from our tickets go to them then, right? No, it goes to the theater. Then why did you say what you said? So you know that we're aware. It's like, what I have. Listen, that's a whole other podcast that. That Paul is 1776. I digress. But no. Cabaret Mendy's comes in, and he's like, Track marks, sexy, whatever. Rob Marshall comes in and goes, but let's also make some movement. And then that just becomes the mold. And now we have this new one.

[B]

It doesn't work, but.

[A]

But it becomes. How do we outdo the last cabaret of being avant garde and trendy and like pushing your buttons? And I. I have not seen this cabaret.

[B]

Same, same, same.

[A]

Robbie claims it's amazing.

[B]

Great. I can't.

[A]

And I love Robbie. I love his taste. I have other friends who've seen it who've been like, it's fine. It's like any other cabaret you've ever seen. I will see what happens. It's very expensive. I know that the August Wilson, the Jude Jamson or whoever has an Ambassador theater group. They now own that. Like they were the sort of losers of that Hot Hot Goss. Everybody, not a single theater owner wanted this cabaret.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because of what they had to do to the theater. It was gonna. Same thing with the Heroes Love situation. Like it was gonna cost so much money to gut the theater. And this is doing even work. More than work than Here Lies Love did because they have. They're doing a whole renovation on the lobby because it's a whole environmental.

[B]

They're doing the August Wilson.

[A]

Yeah, they're. They have to do. It's all in the round. Like all They've got to do all this crazy to the theater. It's kind of like a 24 million dollar price tag.

[B]

And then hope to God it runs.

[A]

Yeah, they wanted the Hudson. They said they really like, Please don't fucking go here. They looked at the Imperial. I know they really didn't want it. Like, it was very much Drew Jamison got the short end of the stick. I also know Spamlot was looking at the Shubert, but then some Like It Hot was like, we refuse to not close before January.

[B]

That's nice.

[A]

I. I have a friend who works there. And he was like. We announced closing and three weeks later we sold 600 seats for a Saturday night. Tells you what those producers are like. But that's what's going on with Cat, right? It's. If Merrily extends to June. Like, it's being rumored that will win revival. They have to extend to June, though.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because right now it's running till March.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no. They're. And they're doing great business.

[A]

They are. Well, it's the. It's the contract of the three of them.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

Because here's the tea and y' all can listen to my old Tony's Episodes from last season when I had people try to convince me that into the woods had a chance at winning revival. And I kept saying, no, it's between Parade and Sweeney, and I'm gonna say it's Parade because no revival of Sweeney Todd has ever won it's Parade. But what I said was, first of all, again, no revival of Sweeney Todd has ever won. And now we're over three. But also, no revival of a musical that was closed has ever won. It has to be running. It can close the week. It can close the week after.

[B]

Like, the 05 has to be open.

[A]

It has to be open.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And also, no performance in a musical that was closed has won. I think since Little Me with Martin.

[B]

Short, I'm pretty sure it was closed in at 1.

[A]

It closed in 1. But also, you got to look at that lineup because it was Martin Short and Little Me. It was. No, it was 1999. Okay? It was Martin Short and Little Me. Brent Carver and Parade both closed. Both the front runners, Tom Wopad and Annie, get your gun. God bless. And then what's his face from the gay Swan Lake.

[B]

Okay. So it's like, oh, that's. That was Marty's to. To lose.

[A]

Absolutely. Because you had only. Of those four, only one of them was in a show that was running.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Marty was the critic. Starling. Of a revival that not a lot of people liked, but everyone agreed that he was wonderful.

[B]

Oh, he was brilliant.

[A]

In a showcase for him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it made sense.

[B]

And to make up for Goodbye Girl.

[A]

Yeah. Exactly. Where it was like, we're so glad you're doing Broadway. We're so sorry. This is the show.

[B]

Thank you for bringing in tickets.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Groff is the front runner right now for Merrily. It needs to be running by June for him to win.

[B]

I gotta be honest with you. I have not seen this. This particular Merrily. I saw her production of it that she did, like, 10 years ago over.

[A]

In London when it was at the Meniere still.

[B]

Yes. And I did not like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't like it. I thought it was cold and boring and dull. And so I'm curious to see what she's done with it, because now I hear it's the second Coming, and I'm like, is it she changed her direction, or are these three individuals just so fucking good at what they're doing that it's moving her vision along once again?

[A]

Rob, I remind you, don't listen to anyone who says anything. That's the second Coming. It's one of those things where it's like, if everything is special and everything is an event, nothing is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You like? I appreciate the enthusiasm. You have to be more discerning, especially when you're recommending shit to people.

[B]

That's where it gets hard for me. That's where it gets hard. Because, like. Because we're in the business, you don't want to go out there and be like, no, you know, oh, God, this was horrible. Because you know how hard that's like. We've all done shows where we're like, what the fuck are we doing here?

[A]

I'm sorry. How did we meet again? Rob.

[B]

That's right. Daddy issues.

[A]

Daddy issues.

[B]

That's right. But I'm also like, on. On the flip side, if you're telling people to spend money, that's a problem.

[A]

Not just money. Time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Money can get refunded. Time can, though.

[B]

God, that's beautiful. That was actually a cut song from Carousel.

[A]

Time. Money can be refunded. Time can.

[B]

Sung by Mr. Snow.

[A]

Thank you. The one review I've written that caused friction, and it wasn't from anyone who actually works on Broadway. It was from people who are sort.

[B]

Of like, I guess, like protectors of a show.

[A]

Just fans, I guess.

[B]

Guardians.

[A]

Yes. My review for Back to the Future, okay, where I ripped it apart. Not because the show is bad. I even start my review by saying, this is not the worst musical I've ever seen. It's just the laziest adaptation I've ever seen.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

No. Since Pretty Woman, have I seen such a lazy adaptation.

[B]

This is paint by numbers.

[A]

You threw the movie on stage, added songs that don't need to be there, gave it $30 million and made your actors do their best impressions of the movie, people. It's why the actor who plays Crispin Glover gets such applause. Because he comes on, he goes, marty, you gotta understand. And the audience laughs because, like, it's just like, Crispin, okay? And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I don't care if it's good or bad. Like, try. Just fucking try. And I would give it even more grace if it was three writers who were, you know, new to Broadway and were up and coming and just doing their best. But it's three men. One is fucking Bob Gale, who wrote the fucking movie, has millions of dollars in his bank account. Alan Silvestri, who wrote the score for the movies as well as other Zemeckis movies, and has millions of dollars. And then the dude who wrote the lyrics for fucking Ghost and other pop songs, Millionaires all of them white male millionaires. And I'm not someone who goes, you're white, you're male, you're a hetero. You're the enemy. Especially in theater. I'm like, if you're talented and you're empathetic, write whatever the fuck you want. I want to see it. But I'm like, we're talking about diversity. We're talking about giving opportunities. And these three dudes who have millions to their name, who don't need to do this and are clearly doing this to make more millions to milk this franchise for all it's worth, and we're just gonna let them get away with it. Because people go, well, it brought me joy, but is this any good? And I had people not only unfollow me, but block me because that review, wow. No one from Broadway, I just say this. Everyone who follows me on Instagram, who literally works on Broadway, none of them did that.

[B]

But you can't say it because then you look like an asshole.

[A]

And this is. Okay. This is a major problem right now. No one is holding anyone accountable on Broadway right now. In this community. We have talented people. We have intelligent people. We don't have. And there's. I don't know if there's a way to do it and not be a fucking dick about it, but we don't have that Arthur Lawrence, Elaine Stritch bone right now, where we're like. Where we are able to outwardly say, you can do better than this. Do better look, pointing them in the face and going, no, do better. And it's not that those thoughts don't exist. They exist. Everyone thinks it. No one's saying it. We're all just going, holding hands and going kumbaya. So happy for you. And it's hard to make a show.

[B]

We'll go, and I'm guilty of this, too. You go on social media, you'll be like, this show was great. Oh, my God, it was wonderful. Because you want to support.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then somebody privately will go to you and go, what'd you think? And you go, what? Worst piece of shit I ever saw in my life.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna.

[B]

At least I do that.

[A]

I'm gonna say this. I'm say the show. I'm not gonna say anyone. I'm not gonna say any names.

[B]

Backstage babble.

[A]

Because we're talking. No. Charles is a sweetheart. Charles, I hope you. You've been listening to this and laughing and not. And not getting self conscious because both of us love you.

[B]

Charles knows I love him.

[A]

Yeah. Charles. Charles is the fucking future.

[B]

Charles is the future.

[A]

Charles gives me the future. It gives me hope for the future of Gen Z, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

If you join a cult. Join Charles's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So his episode of this podcast is the only one that doesn't have the explicit tag on it. And he's. I think he even said that at our panel.

[B]

I love. Yes, he did. Oh, God, he's such a sweet kid.

[A]

He's a sweet kid. But I'll say the show. I won't say anyone who. Because we're talking about this season.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

There is currently a revival of Spamalot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And everyone who has seen it, who I am mutual friends with on Instagram.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of Broadway.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And saw it. They're, like, so proud of friends. Had. Had a blast. And then I don't even reach out. They come to me and they go, girl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, just. Just tag that you're there. Don't say loved it. Just. Just say, here to support friends. Because that's true. You're there to support them. Don't say you loved it if you didn't. There's a wonderful documentary that I know you've watched. Charles has definitely watched the Golden Age. I have it on dvd.

[B]

Oh, I met that guy. He's a sweet. He was a sweetheart.

[A]

Yeah. He's dead now. But Rick.

[B]

Why do you have to come after Rick?

[A]

He's dead.

[B]

He is dead.

[A]

But Elizabeth Ashley. Yeah, she says, I want to. I want. I want to find a way to rip it and put it on my insta. She's like, people pay far too much money to sit in an uncomfortable chair where they can't smoke, drink, cop a feel to be not watching something that challenges them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Fully entertains them. And it's like, when you're writing something, don't you want something that titillates an audience, challenges them, while also, like, not fully, but they putting them at bay.

[B]

But they think they are because they have friends surrounding them going, that was great. So if you don't know any different, why do you. You don't even know there's a problem.

[A]

And then you have the people who go, well, I just support theater, and I want. I want people to go see stuff. So I'm telling them, go see Harmony or Back to the Future. It's magical. And I'm not ripping those shows separately or together. What I'm saying is, like, I watch people go, like, rave about show after show after show, and then they get confused why people aren't buying tickets. I'm like, you just gave a rave review to nine shows in a row, each one costing $150 to see. People can't afford rent. They can't afford healthcare. And we're. And we're telling them to support theater and telling them every show's worthwhile. I'm sorry, it's just fucking not true. No, it's not true. And there's nothing. There's nothing offensive about that.

[B]

All you have to do is do exactly what you said earlier. Go to the show, take your photo tag that you were there. You like it. Say something. You don't. You don't have to.

[A]

No.

[B]

No one is forcing you to lie.

[A]

And if I don't like it, it's not a personal attack on anybody, a part of it. No. There is not a single person who writes for theater or acts in theater or directs for theater where I have loved everything they've ever done. Maybe Jennifer Simard.

[B]

Well, I'm right here.

[A]

You're right there. Honestly, not even Audra. I will say I have not loved everything Audra has been in.

[B]

I know you hated her. In Carousel, you can finally.

[A]

And Marie.

[B]

Christine, you can get that off your shoulders.

[A]

The only time I have not liked Audra was a video of her doing Rainbow High at Carnegie Hall. And that's just. That's just not her. That's not her role. I know. She did it when she was a teenager. It's not her role.

[B]

But besides that, that's not a bad track record.

[A]

No. There have been things she's been in that I haven't liked, but I have not disliked her. I thought Ohio State Murders was drier than fucking Barbara Belgetti's vagina. And she's deader than Rick McKay. But Awja was lovely.

[B]

Oh, my God. What? She's drier than Barbara. I need to quote one more time, please.

[A]

Audra McDonald's was in Ohio State Murders, a play that I found to be drier than Barbara Balgetti's vagina. And she's deader than Rick McKay.

[B]

This is the pull quote. This is going right on the fucking marquee. I will spend any amount of money to get this on the market.

[A]

I need Charles Bush to listen to this. I met Charles Bush recently.

[B]

He's a nice guy.

[A]

He's very nice. I had a great quote about Theresa Rebeck in front of him that he liked very much.

[B]

Will you share it or is it Confidential?

[A]

Friend of the pod, Patrick Pacheco has a talk show called Theater all the Moving parts on Cuny tv.

[B]

Oh, he's marvelous. Jesus, he's so good.

[A]

I may or may not have been on it, and I may have, may or may not have been on it with someone who will be on this podcast talking about a show I love very much. And we talk about the aftermath of that episode.

[B]

You know, how to whet our appetites.

[A]

Someone's gotta be wetter than Barbara Balghani's vagina. But. But I know.

[B]

Yeah, okay, Patrick.

[A]

Patrick texts me. He goes, hey, I'm interviewing Charles Bush to talk about his memoir. Like, I know you like him. Do you want to, like, sit in and watch? I went, do I want to sit in and watch? I fucking love Charles Bush. Diamond, you can see behind me. I have the DVD of Diamondbacks.

[B]

The first time Matt's ever said I like Bush. So I think we're very, very excited by this. There's hope, but.

[A]

So I'm in the green room with Patrick and Charles, and. And we're talking, whatever, and then they. They go off and do their thing and they. And they come back and so I have not read Charles's memoir, but he apparently talks about. Because Patrick interviews him about it. The. The fact that, you know, Charles Bush came up in theater in the late 70s, early 80s, in a time when it was, like, a little sleazier in New York. And, you know, he did every. He's like. He says, I did every job you could possibly do to support. Support yourself when you were trying to do theater, including turning tricks. And they talk about it, and they go back. They come back to the green room after they're done, and he goes, I'm interviewing Teresa Reebeck after you. Like, she's doing the next episode. And Charles goes, oh, are you gonna ask her about turning tricks? Sorry? Are you gonna ask Theresa Rebeck if she's ever prostituted herself? To which I immediately respond, well, how else do you explain Smash?

[B]

Oh, that's funny.

[A]

Thank you. It made Charles Bush laugh, and that's.

[B]

Enough for me, you know, isn't that a nice moment you can cherish in your heart forever?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You made Charles Bush laugh right up.

[A]

There with fingering Jonathan Groff. You know what I mean?

[B]

I. Best person I ever fingered was Barbara Bel Geddes.

[A]

Drier than sandpaper.

[B]

Cut up my finger pretty bad. But, God, what a great experience.

[A]

But it got you ready for the entire company of newsies.

[B]

Two finger, obscure character actress Barbara Bel.

[A]

Geddes, Oscar and Tony nominee, the original Maggie the Cat.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[A]

She was and she's also in Vertigo. She's the one that's.

[B]

She's in Vertigo.

[A]

She's not. She's the one who is not Kim Novak.

[B]

She's the one in glasses. And they're like, oh, put her in glasses. That'll make her ugly.

[A]

Truly. Barbara Vel Geddes might be the first example of Put glasses on her. She's ugly because she originated Maggie the Cat on Broadway Goes to Hollywood. They put glasses on her and she's the ugly friend. She's the side piece to give you context, guys. Ashley Judd, Kathleen Turner, when she was doing fucking Body Heat, and Scarlett Johansson have all. And Anika Noni Rose have all played Maggie the Cat. Barbara Balgettis originated the role. Elizabeth Taylor did the movie version.

[B]

And now Kathleen Turner's playing Big Daddy, which is very exciting for all of us. I want to talk to you. Brooke, I can't do it.

[A]

Let's take one more break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar.

[B]

You're the top.

[A]

You're a Coolidge dollar. And now we're back. Okay. Back to the season.

[B]

What a special moment, though. Oh, yes, the season. Okay, so.

[A]

So recently, Heart of Rock and Roll just announced that they were going into.

[B]

The Jones, which is Huey Lewis.

[A]

Yes. The Huey Lewis jukebox musical.

[B]

How many people are clamoring for a Huey Lewis jukebox musical?

[A]

As many people who are clamoring for a Days of Wine and Roses musical.

[B]

It's the same audience demographic.

[A]

Same demographic, same number of people. Here's the thing about this season. That's Power of Love.

[B]

Is that him?

[A]

Yeah, but that's Back to the Future. Will it be in Heart of Rock and Roll? I don't know.

[B]

Oh, I wonder if contractually. Oh, okay, listen, it has to Be.

[A]

Toxic was on Broadway in two different shows and Moulin Rouge and fucking Once upon it one more time.

[B]

Okay. Okay, cool.

[A]

Okay, here's the thing about this season. There is so much. And we haven't even really talked about plays all that much.

[B]

No. And like we said, it's everything that's been waiting to get in.

[A]

Yeah, I know pretty confidently that Operation Mincemeat is coming in.

[B]

What the hell is that?

[A]

It's a British musical that apparently is very, very funny and very, very, very good.

[B]

Great. Okay.

[A]

I don't know anything about it.

[B]

Is it like one of those fucking Peter Pan goes wrong shit or the Place?

[A]

I think. Well, I think it's of that Ilk But I've heard nothing but rape. That's what I've heard. I've heard it. I have had friends who listen. I don't always trust their taste. Like, went to London and saw it on a whim, and they're like, I walked out. Obsessed.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

And honestly, anything that can come in that's an original musical with original score that can take. That can take nominations away from Back to the Future I'm here for.

[B]

Is that your mission for this season, the 23, 24 season?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Back to the Future will not win.

[A]

Oh, it's not winning. Fucking shit. I want it.

[B]

You don't want it to be nominated.

[A]

I want as few nominations as possible. I do not want to encourage producers to continue putting shit into Back to the Future. I want, as much as I found Days of Wine and Roses to be a first draft. As much as I think Hell's Kitchen is rough, I would rather they put shit into that than Back to the Future.

[B]

Because you like the fact that they're trying something new.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. And I have not seen Heart of Rock and Roll. I have friends who are involved in it who were involved in it in Old Globe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like, we. They are trying something with it. And I'm like, you know what? Great. God.

[B]

But you like that.

[A]

If it's not good, it's not good. But, like, you're trying. And I. Oh, I will always give an extra bucks. I will always give an extra 10% for trying something different.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I. I think Jagged Little Pill might be the worst book to win the Tony for best book of a musical, but I at least give Ms. Cody credit for trying something and not doing an Alanis Morissette bio musical.

[B]

I think it's one of the best jukebox musicals ever. Truly, I do. Wow. Okay.

[A]

I'm gonna need you to talk to me about that off mic because. Yeah, I have a. I have a guest on a future episode who's also loved it, and I think that whole show is garbage.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

I think it's bad. I think it's bad.

[B]

Oh, I. Okay, cool, cool.

[A]

We'll talk. I think it's bad. I admire the effort. I think the execution is terrible.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's one of those things where I'm like, you can't do 20 different issues because you give five minutes to each of them, and you do disservice to all of them.

[B]

Let me be. I want to be clear if I can. I saw this in Boston when I was out of town.

[A]

I guarantee you nothing changed between Boston and Broadway.

[B]

And I think that was the issue because all the notes that I had for it in Boston, because I didn't see it on Broadway, I heard that those notes were still there.

[A]

Yeah. Nothing got changed.

[B]

There was a whole character you could have gotten rid of.

[A]

There were 20 characters you could have gotten rid of. And I think that show has seven characters. Speaking of which, should we talk about the Outsiders?

[B]

What do you want to say?

[A]

Well, okay, so let's just put a cap in the fall because there's so much we haven't talked about. We've gone on so much off topic.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

I saw Harmony at the Yiddish Theater.

[B]

Okay. I'm seeing it next week.

[A]

We will talk.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My inside sources tell me that a lot has changed between the Yiddish Theater and Broadway. God bless.

[B]

They've had 25 fucking years to fix this.

[A]

I know. Barry Manilow is not a musical theater writer. Copacabana should have taught us that.

[B]

Do you ever see Lanny Kazan do Copacabana?

[A]

I've seen Lanny Kazan do a lot of things. Continue on at the Yiddish Theater. I thought that production had two things in its favor.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

It had the boys. It had the six Harmonists, who are all very handsome and very talented. Speaking of newsies, it's sort of like the fandom for that show is like the fandom for newsies grew up a little bit and they're like, oh, now they're in tuxedos.

[B]

They took a shower. Crutchy.

[A]

Yeah. Which I'm not mad about. I am more of a harmony boy than a newsy boy. I don't want a dirty page boy. I want a man in a tuxedo who will give me some champagne. And then we have a nice dirty time.

[B]

Beautiful time for you.

[A]

Absolutely. And the other thing I'll say is it is some of Warren Carlisle's best choreography since After Midnight. Not all of it good for him. Some of it. I saw Harmony right after I saw Music Man. And to have Music man where it was Warren Carlisle being like, I never met a twirl I never liked. Music man was nothing but twirling. And it pissed me the fuck off. And then I saw Harmony Room. Like, I don't love all of this, but every now and then you have a really laser focused idea and you execute it beautifully in a show that I don't think works.

[B]

But like the show itself you don't think is working.

[A]

No, I don't. I don't. And I don't know, the whole journey. I know they did a production in la, which my dad saw many years ago, and he sort of liked it. Chip Zion's role, which also talked about leading actor in a musical. That role did not exist in previous incarnations. That. That is a new.

[B]

That's new.

[A]

It being like a memory musical.

[B]

Love giving Chip more work.

[A]

I'm all for about giving Chip work. I remember seeing at the Yiddish theater. And I love Chip. I mean, he's the baker.

[B]

He's brilliant. He's a talented man.

[A]

He's the fucking baker. You know, he's Mendel. He's. He's Mendel. And for me to say that over Brandon Urenowitz, who, you know, can also finger me anytime he wants.

[B]

Is Brandon aware of this? Well, he is now.

[A]

Brandon doesn't know I exist. It's fine. I love saying things about people who don't know I exist. It gives me such freedom. But Chip, in Harmony at the Yiddish theater, I was like, I love you and I love the passion you have. Like, you're like. You're a 70s 80s actor where it's like, it's. You're leaving it all on the floor. Yes, in theory, I love that. But in a production where, like, it doesn't truly support that, in my opinion. I don't know if they've changed anything about that since then, but it's. Imagine, if you will, Alice and Emily in Sideshow giving that performance in a production of A Sam Gold Fun Home, where it's like, one of these things is not like the other stick out. Exactly. That's how I felt at the Yiddish theater.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Many people have spoken highly about him on Broadway, so he's definitely in the conversation for the Tonys.

[B]

Great.

[A]

He might get nominated again. Also, he's never been nominated before, which.

[B]

He really hasn't, has he?

[A]

He hasn't. Which is a huge narrative to think about. He won't win. Believe me, he won't win.

[B]

You don't think they'd be like a. Hey, Legacy.

[A]

Harmony's got to be running by May for him to win. And I don't think it will be. I. That talk about a show that I think will be closed by the spring unless they find a million angel investors, because they're not doing well right now. I don't think they'll do well after the New Year. If Her Lies Love closes before New Year's. Harmony's closing before, you know, Valentine's Day.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

And so, which is why I'm sort of like, I think Hell's Kitchen should maybe wait for the Barrymore so boop can go into the Shoe Bert.

[B]

And that Boop is definitely coming in the Betty Boop thing.

[A]

That is what I've been told.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

But again, grain of salt.

[B]

And I told you now the Majestic is back in play.

[A]

Yes, you were the one who told me that. The crew renovating the Majestic has been told they needed to get it done by February.

[B]

And I'm like, what's going in?

[A]

Exactly? I wonder. I wonder. Well, apparently the palace now is gonna be ready for the new year, because they got something coming in.

[B]

Shit. I wonder what it's gonna be.

[A]

I don't know. Again, everyone is. Everyone's got intel. It's all wrong, and it's. All right.

[B]

You know what show I am excited about coming in this season? Lempicka.

[A]

I.

[B]

Okay, I'll tell you a story.

[A]

Tell me a story.

[B]

I went to NAMT six years ago, and it got awful. I mean, like, the shows that year were like. You just sat there and you're like, oh, my God, who thinks this is a good idea?

[A]

Welcome to namt.

[B]

And Limpicka went up there and I gotta tell you, man, it was incredible. 45 fucking minutes. It was incredible. I've never seen this before. It ended and people in the audience were like, more. Do more. Literally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shouting at these fucking actors, being like, give us other stuff to see. So many people rushed to those writers afterwards, and it was the best thing ever. So I'm very excited about Lempico.

[A]

I know nothing about it.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

The only thing I really know about it, first of all, Chavkin's directing. Great, wonderful visualist. Eden is the lead.

[B]

She did it at the. Yeah, fabulous.

[A]

Natalie Joy Johnson did it at La Jolla. She is a gay icon. She has become the new Patti LuPone at Les Mouche in New York with her.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Cue Bar Now Green Room 42 show with friend of the pod, Brian Nash. So I'm very excited for her to come back to Broadway. I. Again, I'm just excited for the spring in terms of all these shows were like, there's potential. And I just hope that they put in the work to really get it to the point it needs to get to.

[B]

That's what's getting you, isn't it? The fact that, like, people go, that's good enough.

[A]

Yeah, truly. We got a standing ovation in Atlanta. We got a standing ovation in La Jolla. I'm like, that's not good enough for me.

[B]

Well, yeah, they're Spending a lot of money on it. Why would they want to have a bad time?

[A]

Sondheim talks about this in Broadway, the Golden Age. He's like, everything gets a standing ovation because it's so expensive. They wanna believe they saw something special.

[B]

I don't disagree with him at all on that point.

[A]

I disagree with him taking a shit on my chest, but other than that.

[B]

But besides that, very copacetic with the opinions.

[A]

Absolutely. He loved the Wiz more than I ever did. But other than that.

[B]

He loved whizzing on you or he loved the Wiz?

[A]

Both.

[B]

Oh, that's wonderful.

[A]

He whizzed on me while we watched Diana Ross sing in the Wizard.

[B]

When I think of home.

[A]

Speaking of the spring. The Wiz is coming.

[B]

The Wiz is coming in. Thank God.

[A]

Yeah, thank God.

[B]

I love the Wiz, but have you.

[A]

Seen the feedback from this tour?

[B]

No. What? Oh, no. Don't ruin this for me. What? Tell me. I'm here. I'm here. I'd rather rip the Band Aid off, Matt.

[A]

I hope Ms. Williams, our director for the wizard, the national tour, is listening. Because I gotta say, talk about, like, don't take audiences into account. Like, read what the faggots on the Internet who are faceless and have nothing to lose are saying. Because that truly, that is where you got to take your. Your bread and butter. Because when people are not in the room with you, when they think that they've got nothing to lose and they're faceless and they can be nasty, that's where you got to be. You gotta take a little bit into account.

[B]

Do you think the producers go, look, there's gonna be 5% of pissy homos that are not gonna be happy with no matter what we do. Let's just try to appease the people from Trenton.

[A]

No. Well, yes, I think that's what they are doing. But Hal Prince once said, I'm not interested in giving an audience what they want. I'm interested in giving them what they don't realize they want. The online discourse of the Wiz right now from the national tour is basically that it looks ugly. The book is a mess. Everyone's singing the House down, which is like. Of course. Like, that has sort of become the new like. But of course, yeah. If. If there's one thing I will say, we have a talent pool where the vocals are lovely. Maybe not as thrilling as Alice singing I Want mine or Patti LuPone saying I want to be rainbow High, but piercing enough where it's like, yeah, no, it's Clean. It's beautiful. It's wonderful. We don't have specialness. We don't have weirdness.

[B]

Where's the fucking passion, though?

[A]

Where's the warmth?

[B]

Listen to her. Where is the warmth? Listen to her sing Rainbow High. Listen to them sing Sideshow. I'll even give you fucking Defying gravity and popular. Whatever. That's fine. But all I hear now is, I'm gonna stand center stage, I'm gonna show you my vocal technique, and everyone's gonna lose their shit. I'm like, where's the passion? Where's the story? Because what's most interesting is. Is, you know who becomes stars. The people that are unique.

[A]

The weirdos.

[B]

Yeah. So why is everyone trying to sound like one person when the person who is unique that is standing out is the one making more money than everybody? How does that work?

[A]

I have said before, if a young Adina Menzel and Kristin Chenoweth went into Telsey right now, they would not get cast.

[B]

They wouldn't even get into the building.

[A]

No.

[B]

They wouldn't even go into the fucking building.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Give me my cookie cutter.

[A]

You want to know how you know this is the part of me that is actually truly an asshole. I sat there at Hell's Kitchen watching an audience be tepid for two and a half hours and then rise to their feet at the end and then, like, walk out and go, wasn't that fabulous? And I sat there, and I was walking out. I was getting a little angry because I was like, that's not how you were acting until that last moment. But then I also went, in a year's time, you will forget this show, and I know that you will. I just have to wait. Because when something is truly special, when something is a real moment, and I've had those in that specific Newman Theater. I remember seeing Fun Home in that theater.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And an audience walking out and being like. And I.

[B]

And we all just went, daughter sweet.

[A]

Was that at the Newman? Yeah, go figure. Seeing Hamilton, which was actually. It was what's His Face's first performance. Lin was out taking notes. He was actually sitting right behind me.

[B]

Javier.

[A]

No. Yeah, Javier. It was Javier's first performance as Hamilton. And even though, like, it wasn't fully there, it was 85 there, and the audience walked out. We were like, we're seeing something that's gonna. This is gonna go somewhere. You can feel it. As Frank Rich says in his Dream Girls review, when Broadway history is being made, you can feel it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people always want to believe that they're seeing something special, that they're seeing the new thing, and they'll tell you.

[B]

They want to be special.

[A]

They'll always tell you. They'll always say it. I'm like, you want to know something? You will know when you see something truly incredible, because you're obsessing about this show right now. In less than a year, you will forget about it.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

I don't mean to throw the children under the bus. I really don't. I love the passion of the teenagers. I was a theater geek myself, and the things that I love that I forgot, it's wonderful. But the kids who loved Heather's, then loved Mean Girls and then loved Be More Chill, and then Beetlejuice and then Jagged Little Pill, and then the Prom and now Back to the Future. I'm like, you're gonna forget about this show in six months because you forgot about the last show six months after.

[B]

Oh, yeah. They get obsessed with one thing. That's what they live, eat, sleep, and breathe. And then if it was really that good, you wouldn't be forgetting it so fast when the new one comes along.

[A]

Absolutely. I saw Violet with Sutton Foster three times in the four months that that show ran. I'm sorry, why was there a limited roundabout run? But I still remember the first night I saw it, because I didn't. I don't know. I did not know Violet super well when I first saw it. And I've talked about this on the podcast. I knew some of it, but not super well. When Sutton is having her sort of breakdown in the chapel, and then the priest starts to walk away, and she shouts, look at me. No one will look at me. I will never forget that moment.

[B]

Actors want direction. I think a lot of directors are afraid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nowadays. And they don't know what to do when they get pushback. And I don't think pushback is necessarily a bad thing.

[A]

No.

[B]

I think that means you have to clarify what you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah. Well. And there's all.

[B]

You remember when they did A Delicate Balance.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it was Glenn Close and John Lithgow and who was the director? Pam McKinnon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that I heard was frightful, that she would give direction and Glenn Close would go, I don't want to do that. And she'd go, okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, well, have a conversation.

[A]

Tell Glenn. Just try it, Glenn, you don't have an Oscar yet. Don't you fucking come for me, bitch.

[B]

Glenn, you got other shit to be worrying about right now.

[A]

I know you wanted Tony for Sunset. But everyone agrees you're the third best Norma on stage.

[B]

Who's the first to go ahead and.

[A]

Name him on stage?

[B]

Yes. Now, Betty. And two Patty.

[A]

In her final three months, number four, Petula Clark. If that's the truth you want to.

[B]

Believe, that's your religion, sir.

[A]

Let me also be very clear. I detest the stage musical of Sunset Boulevard, so I don't fucking care.

[B]

Okay? So we got all of those coming in, and we haven't even talked about.

[A]

Any of the plays. Okay. Okay. Well, also, because the plays this season, it's honestly truly sparse. I saw Jaja's African hair braiding. So fabulous, so delightful. The last 10 minutes are a bit of a. It's not a twist. It's a curveball in a sense, where I'm like, I don't think that the play has earned these 10 minutes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's not bad, but it's a very different play than the rest of it.

[B]

But overall, you had a good time.

[A]

Very lovely time. It's also the best ensemble work so far this year. Those women are God. They're all dynamite. Pearly Victorious, also very lovely revival. Yes. At the moment, that is the front runner for revival. Although we got Doubt coming in with Mama Tyne.

[B]

That's not gonna get.

[A]

It's gonna get nominated because.

[B]

Oh, it got nominated.

[A]

But revival of play, right now we got Pearly Victorious and Doubt.

[B]

But, yeah, those Pearly Victorious reviews. Come on.

[A]

Pearly was probably gonna win revival.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tyne could win actress because that role.

[B]

In Tine, it's her and Lev Schreiber.

[A]

Yes. My issue is that Scott Ellis is the one directing it, and he is very hit and miss for me.

[B]

Yeah. I do not disagree with that statement.

[A]

And it's roundabout, but we digress. Are there any other revivals of a place. Oh, Uncle Vanya. The Heidi Shrek, Uncle Vanya. That could be interesting.

[B]

But it's Sam Gold, right?

[A]

No, no, it's Lily. Lily Newberger.

[B]

Oh, fine. Great. Oh, I love her work.

[A]

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. I don't think Sam Gold's got anything this season.

[B]

No, he does. He does have something coming in. I can't remember what the hell it is right now, but he does, and it's a revival of something, which makes me nervous.

[A]

Let's look this up. Are you sure it's not off Broadway?

[B]

I don't think so. I think it's something coming into new on Broadway.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna keep looking. You keep talking.

[B]

Yeah, so there's that Then, of course, we have Theresa Rebeck's new comedy.

[A]

I need that.

[B]

I need that.

[A]

I need that.

[B]

And unless it's a script doctor, I don't know if she really needs it.

[A]

No, I need that.

[B]

With Danny DeVito and Lucy DeVito, who can't wait to see that. I love Danny DeVito on stage. I think he's just so freaking.

[A]

Danny DeVito is a fucking national treasure.

[B]

We have Sarah Paulson coming in with a appropriate.

[A]

Yes. We have Rachel McAdams and Mary Jane.

[B]

Yep. We also have Aubrey Plaza in Danny and the Deep Blue Sea.

[A]

Right. That's off Broadway.

[B]

That's off Broadway.

[A]

Is that gonna come in?

[B]

I would not be surprised, but stranger things have happened.

[A]

It's true. Well, okay, so let's also be very clear. Here are some things that are currently running, whether it's an older show, an in preview show, or show that's supposed to start. Here are some theaters that I can see being opened in the spring. Hate to say it. St. James, Spamalot, the Booth, Kimberly Kimbo. I love her dearly. She's actually doing pretty well right now. I don't think she's gonna make it past March, which is fine. If she can turn. If she can return 70% of her investment, I consider that a win in.

[B]

This day and age. Yes.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But that's another. Nothing is announced for the golden in the spring after Shark is broken. God bless leaves. But I. That is what I understand. Operation Mincemeat is going into.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Something else could go in there. At any given point. The Belasco has How to Dance in Ohio coming in. God bless. That thing will be gone in the spring.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

I don't know anything about it.

[B]

Sorry. Ohio.

[A]

I listened to one song. It was fine. It's. I have nothing against the show. I'm just. I'm sorry. When you see a four, a three leaf clover, you're like. You're a three leaf clover. You're getting plucked and going into a bouquet for, you know, a Thanksgiving arrangement, harmony. I'm so sorry. Like, unless they have a heroized love situation where they can get an angel investor to keep them running for a long time. I don't see them making it to Barry, man.

[B]

Although he can't give a dollar.

[A]

No. They look at their last two weeks of previews, they have not done well. It's just not. It's not. Unless Manilow himself is like, I will put in millions to keep this thing running till the Tonys, but that's a long time from now. They Open soon.

[B]

And what's the benefit? What's the benefit?

[A]

With a spring that is so jam packed with new scores.

[B]

Look, dude, you got it to hear. Let's move on.

[A]

You're. You're going to open it after 25 years.

[B]

Congratulations.

[A]

Yeah. Take. Have your cigar and go. And the people who have their property debuts in that show. Congrats. I think they have a choreography nomination come in their way. Chip could get a good actor nomination. Good job.

[B]

I would love that.

[A]

I'm not even convinced they've got a score or book nomination coming. Not with all the scores and books coming in the spring.

[B]

That'd be tough. That's tough.

[A]

We've got suffs coming in the spring.

[B]

Suffs, The Hillary Clinton musical.

[A]

Yep. Which I did not see it at the Public. The night I was supposed to go, they had to cancel due to Covid. What I understand is that they did a lot of work between the public and now.

[B]

Great.

[A]

She. They convinced her to step out.

[B]

Great.

[A]

For a workshop so she could just be the writer.

[B]

Great. That's good. Good.

[A]

Yeah. And she did the thing. At least I hope so. That is what I was told. And she is such a smart, empathetic, talented woman.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I can't imagine her not being like, I want to make the best thing possible.

[B]

Yes. Yes. This is good stuff.

[A]

Absolutely. The Outsiders. Mixed reviews out of town, but they're coming in. Angelina Jolie is the lead producer.

[B]

Oh, fantastic. Because that's really what you want, is a nice, stable produce.

[A]

But the one that I think right now is to beat is the Notebook. To beat for best music.

[B]

Yeah. Score is amazing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Score is amazing.

[A]

I've heard nothing from it.

[B]

Oh, really? It's good. It's very good.

[A]

You're. You are not alone in telling me this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've heard, first of all, got rave reviews out of town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not the first person to tell me that that score is great. I know Ryan Vasquez a little bit. We've. We've done a lot of Q&As together for Broadway plus. And the fact that he chose that over water for elephants and the Outsiders tells me something.

[B]

Yeah. Then you also have water for elephants coming in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which good reviews I don't know in Atlanta got.

[A]

I think the reviews were fine. I don't remember the reviews being, like, brilliant. Move it now. Again, it was one of the things that they're, like, sold out at the alliance, standing ovations, and it's like, great.

[B]

And so did Bull Durham.

[A]

Where's that so did you know K Pop I again, I saw 20 minutes at a presentation. Potential happy to have Isabelle Michaela back on Broadway. Happy.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

Happy to have Paul Alexander Nolan back.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That man. If that man does not get a Tony nomination in my lifetime.

[B]

Oh, he will. He's so good. He's so good.

[A]

He has always been amazing.

[B]

He's so good.

[A]

He has either had a prime role in a show where he's not the biggest role or he's been the best thing in a terrible thing.

[B]

Yeah, no, he's so good. No, wait. Everybody's talking about Jamie, right? Isn't that coming in or.

[A]

No, no, that's dead.

[B]

No. What's the other one? My son's a queer.

[A]

My son's a queer.

[B]

That's coming in.

[A]

Coming in. That'll be. That'll be play eligible.

[B]

Maybe Guys and Dolls.

[A]

That keeps. The first rumor I heard about Guys and Dolls was that they were looking to give the producers of her lies love 2 million to keep the out the outline of the theater the way it is. And they would go in and then a friend of ours, won't say the name, said that that wasn't the case, that they were actually looking at the retail space underneath the newly renovated Palace.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they were gonna try to do something there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Now it just may not come in. I don't know. Revival of musical is interesting because right now it's between Merrily and Cabaret. The Wiz, as far as I'm aware, is dead on arrival. Spamlot is sort of filler.

[B]

It'll go to Merrily.

[A]

Yeah, Tommy.

[B]

I've heard Tommy.

[A]

Well, so Tommy's coming into the Nederlander. Got very strong reviews. Out of town, sold out business. It's coming in. It's. They're going to the Nederlander, which is, you know, that theater can either do really well or it can be really terrible. Tough space for every newsies and Rent. You got a honeymoon in Vegas. Amazing Grace.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, that's a tough space.

[A]

Yeah, that is. The thing about that space is that if you are a show that doesn't necessarily. It doesn't matter where you go. You can go in there and you'll do well. Lehman Trilogy did well there in the height of COVID It's got to be.

[B]

A destination venue thing.

[A]

Exactly in the same way, like the Jones or the Belasco. It's like if you have the sauce and you go in there, people will come.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

But if you need people to like, notice you, that's not where you go.

[B]

No.

[A]

But I think Tommy. I think will come in, and I think Tommy will do well. I think Tommy will get nominations. It'll have nice box office. I don't think it'll win.

[B]

I think this is Merily's. I think there's a lot. It's a lot.

[A]

If the moment Merrily announces it's going till June, which it absolutely will. Once they announce where they're going to June, they will win.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And I haven't even seen it yet, but.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Look, it's going to be vindication for him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that has a huge part in all this. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't separate that stuff.

[A]

And once they win, we'll stop feeling obligated to award every Sondheim revival every time. Because we awarded company, rightfully so. Of those three nominees, we didn't give it to Sweeney. Rightfully so. But, like, then we'll give it to Maryland and be like, you know, we're done. We're done. You know? Yes. Bart, Cher, Give us your night music at the Beaumont, and it'll be five hours long.

[B]

Is that coming in?

[A]

That is what I've been. I've been told that Bart is doing night music. That's his next Lincoln center thing.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Well, I mean, Real clear. Night Music, I love. It's a nearly perfect musical, in my opinion. I would.

[B]

A nearly perfect is what you said. Yeah.

[A]

That book is ironclad. You can't penetrate it.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Hugh Wheeler, in my opinion, has three fucking rock solid books. Night music, Sweeney and his 70s Candide.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I just. It's gonna be a tough one. Well, I think that's going to be.

[A]

I don't want Bart for it, but I also don't know who else I'd want to direct it.

[B]

I'm also like, you want to see another show about rich people having rich people problems?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

What the fuck?

[B]

I'll take it. Mtc.

[A]

What the fuck is Bridgerton or Gilded Age? You know, put it in my veins.

[B]

Like, I go see a fucking MTC show, and it's always the same thing. It's like, that's.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I don't know if I should go with NOP or with Penguin. How am I gonna publish my book?

[A]

How dare you tie a little night music to Manhattan Theater Club that is more hateful than the police at Stonewall.

[B]

I heard our mother had a brief affair. It's that shit.

[A]

Summer 1976. Whatever the fuck it's called. Chardonnay. Yes. And I listen Manhattan Theater Club produces a lot of good shit they did.

[B]

You excited to see Lauren Ambrose as Desiree?

[A]

Why not? Supposedly it's Blanchett, but I want Naomi Watts. That's been.

[B]

I've been Blanchett. Is Desiree Art.

[A]

Well, again, I think we're. I think it's radio signals getting mixed because Blanchet was rumored to do it with Julie Andrews, with Scott Ruden producing, like, preco. That was the rumor. Pre Covid. Now I'm being told, like, oh, no, it's still Blanchet at Lincoln center and Bart's directing it. I'm like, I don't know how much of this is true or how much of this is just, like, mixed signals from, you know, Titanic's radio. But that is what I heard. Take with a grain of salt. Again, I don't know. I don't want Bart necessarily for it because I don't think Bart's a comedic director. And you need someone who's funny. I don't think Bart is a sexy director. And you need someone who wants. He's a stylish director, so it'll look pretty.

[B]

Yeah. I'm trying to think, though. But who, like, who is that person you're talking about?

[A]

Michael Blakemore in the late 90s.

[B]

That's 112. So I don't know if he's coming.

[A]

He's about to die. I don't know who else I'd want is the truth. I mean, you need Jessica Stone.

[B]

Brian.

[A]

No, no, no, no. I enjoyed Shucked enough.

[B]

But what I like about Jessica's work, and I don't mean this in a pejorative way, it's like blue collar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I love that. So I'm curious. Well, maybe she can do that.

[A]

Well, she's also. She's. She's very Mantella to me in the sense that she's really good with actors.

[B]

She's a great director.

[A]

She's a great director of actors. Like, what she does with that company of Kimberly Akimbo. I'm like, I would love to see what you do with the company for Night Music.

[B]

Great. Okay, I'll buy that.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if she's. And I will say if you watch what she does with Water for Elephants, there is a style to that.

[B]

Great. Okay, cool.

[A]

Yeah, it's. She. She's very. It's very inventive visually.

[B]

But this all might be a moot point because it's sounds like it's a. Bart Sheer is attached to this in some way shape.

[A]

I mean, it's Lincoln Center.

[B]

But you feel. You feeling okay about that?

[A]

Oh, Bart, you want to do Hallelujah, Baby? By all means, cast Benante.

[B]

He's one that I'm like, I'll be honest with you. I loved when he first came on the scene.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, Piazza.

[B]

And he did Joe Turner's Come and Gone.

[A]

I remember.

[B]

And it was brilliant.

[A]

He proved all the haters wrong when they were like, why is a white man directing this?

[B]

I don't know. Because fucking August Wilson's wife said it was okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? And she would have known better than anybody.

[A]

And Wilson at his best, like, it doesn't matter who directs him.

[B]

Yeah. It's then South Pacific.

[A]

South Pacific was so good. Yeah.

[B]

And then we got My Fair no King, and I was in between.

[A]

Yeah. I don't love his work on Bridges. I think Bridges is half of a brilliant musical and half of a dull musical.

[B]

Yeah. I do not disagree with that at all. All those people fucking sitting and watching, like, what the fuck are you doing?

[A]

My hot take on Bridges is that it should be 100 minutes and it should be this. Them. It should just be them, Matt.

[B]

I have said that so often. It should be a two character musical. It should be a chamber piece. You don't need the fucking woman sitting on the stool playing the guitar.

[A]

It's a lovely song, but.

[B]

No, no, no, it's lovely. And they all did a good job and stuff, but I'm like, why do I have to keep going back to this fucking pig fair every 20 years?

[A]

Well, so this is. This is my pitch on Bridges. You open it with her and her family and all that shit. He comes in and it's just. It's them for 80 minutes and you get swept up in their relationship.

[B]

That's all you want.

[A]

And you're like, absolutely. Run away with him. And then her family comes back and you're reminded of, like, the connection she has. And that is what brings you back to reality.

[B]

Great. I'll take that.

[A]

And. Yeah, that's all you need. But they were just trying to do so much and. And Bart tried to do this whole thing of, like, your town is watching. I'm like, this isn't.

[B]

No, they're not.

[A]

They're not. They're not watching.

[B]

They got their own problems.

[A]

Yeah. This is not Grover's Corners. This is fucking.

[B]

Oh, is our Town coming in the Kenny Leone out of town.

[A]

That's next season.

[B]

Ah. Okay.

[A]

That was supposed to be Bart Sher directing Dustin Hoffman. That's not happening anymore. Now it's Kenny Leon.

[B]

I think I'm okay with this decision.

[A]

But, yes, I will. I'm interested to see what Kenny Leon does with that because it'll be hard to erase the memory of Cromer's revival, which was truly beautiful.

[B]

It was breathtaking and brilliant and took.

[A]

A show that we all knew so well and was done in a way we all knew.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And still made it so good, different and powerful. Kenny's working Pearly victorious. Did you see Pearly Victorious?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So I was talking to someone today about this. Kenny, for me, as a director, is someone who I'm like. I don't think that he necessarily is, like, a visionary. He is someone who, when he has material that is good and has a cast that is right for their roles, he's really good at subtly steering that ship. I don't think.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I don't think of him as a visionary, so his Pearly is really wonderful. I wish he was a more inventive director of Farce because it would make that just be a 10 out of 10 for me. Right now it's more of like a 9, maybe 8.5 out of 10.

[B]

Pretty good, though.

[A]

Pretty good. Kara Young right now is my front runner for featured actress into Play.

[B]

That I love that she's gonna.

[A]

Can you think of anyone else who's been nominated three times in a row, year after year after year? No, because she's going to be. And she might win.

[B]

That's amazing. Yeah, I think that's amazing.

[A]

I need her. I need her to become one of our leading ladies of Laurie Metcalfe. Was she nominated three years back to back?

[B]

Wasn't she?

[A]

Why she won Doll's House and Three Tall Women back to back? I'm pretty sure.

[B]

No, that counts the nomination, right?

[A]

Yeah, that counts. Yeah. Was Hillary and Clinton the year after Three Tall Women? I guess so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I guess. Laurie is three back to back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Carrie Young and Laurie Metcalfe. They're two peas in a pod.

[B]

I love. Hey, that's the Odd Couple I really want to see.

[A]

Motherfucker.

[B]

That's the Odd Couple I want to see. But no, this is.

[A]

That's the Days of Wine and Roses.

[B]

I want to say take all my money for that one. Take all my money for that one. No, that's. I'm trying to think. I think.

[A]

What else?

[B]

Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that's coming?

[A]

Oh, plenty. I mean, we didn't really talk about how to dance in Ohio, mostly because I don't know Much about.

[B]

Got it. Got good reviews. It's. I think, like you said, it'll be one of those. Unfortunately. You know what? Prove me wrong. Just prove me wrong. Make it. Make it a big hit.

[A]

Okay, well, so. Okay, talk to me. Okay, let's go for this.

[B]

Yeah. When's Spider Woman coming in?

[A]

Well, Ariana left it, so we'll.

[B]

Who Never.

[A]

So never. I'm gonna give you my five nominees for best musical.

[B]

Great.

[A]

I'm gonna say Notebook number one front runner. Because also I think my hot take is Marianne Plunkett. From everything I've heard.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

She's our front runner for actress, musical.

[B]

Give that woman another fucking Tony. She deserves it.

[A]

She's one of our.

[B]

She's a fucking American legend.

[A]

She's an American legend. She's one of our best stage actresses.

[B]

Yes. She's so good.

[A]

She hasn't done a musical in decades.

[B]

So excited.

[A]

She beat Patti LuPone out to replace Bernadette in Sunday in the park with George when she was a fucking nobody.

[B]

Is that true?

[A]

Yeah, she was a replacement. She replaced Amanda Plummer and Agnes of God on Broadway and went from that into replacing Bernadette in Sunday Morning.

[B]

Patty wanted it.

[A]

Patty talked about in her memoir. She went in. Patti went in to audition for Bernadette's replacement. The story she tells is she goes in and she's singing it, and Sondheim's there and he goes, oh, God. Are you gonna belt the whole thing?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Listen, this is Patti LuPone we're talking about. Woman has never met a garbage can that didn't slight her. You know what I like? Pedophone goes up to a stop sign and she goes, what do you mean by that?

[B]

Oh, my God. Okay. Okay, cool.

[A]

But Marianne replaced Great.

[B]

So she'll be up for supporting lead. Lead.

[A]

That is what I've been told.

[B]

Wow, great.

[A]

That she's a leading role in it.

[B]

Love it. Love it.

[A]

And if she is, she's the winner.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Because it would be her. Kelly for Days of Wine and Roses, which is Kelly at her most messy since South Pacific.

[B]

That's exciting, though.

[A]

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I've been waiting for Kelly to be.

[B]

I mean, to the voter. To a voter, that might excite them.

[A]

But also, I think Days of Wine and Roses will be closed by then. So I don't. And also that show is just. In addition to it being a bummer, it's a first draft. The exciting thing is that she and Brian, he is great, and he makes her be greater because of him.

[B]

So good. He's always good.

[A]

He is always good. And I do like Kelly. I want to remind people of this when they get to a future episode. I do like Kelly a lot, but I will never forgive her for singing I Hate Men and Kiss Me Kate like a TED Talk.

[B]

But who told her to do that?

[A]

Scott Ellis. But also, you can't tell Kelly nothing these days. She's like, I'm sorry. I am Kelly o' Hara Ohura. I'm Kelly o'. Hara. You do not tell me not to do what I don't want. In the same way that, like. But I think that they're both sort of. She and Patty are both sort of like chicken bottoms in that way. It's a game of chicken where it's like they come at you and they go, no, no, no. I want to do what I want. And then you have to come forward and be like, no, no, no, I'm telling you.

[B]

Oh, shit.

[A]

Pam McKinnon. Glenn Close was giving you a game of chicken. She says, I'm not doing that. And you go, okay, Glenn, how many Oscars do you have? Oh.

[B]

Oh, this. This is where it gets good.

[A]

Yeah. I don't care who the fuck you are, you need to keep doing things that push you and scare you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And if you come at me with, I know what I'm doing, it's like, no, you don't. No one ever does.

[B]

No, no. God, no. Nobody knows.

[A]

No one ever does.

[B]

Nobody knows.

[A]

But I think. Actress, new musical. Right now, we got Kelly. We got Gail for Cabaret.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We got Marianne for the. Marianne for the Notebook. We've got Eden for Lempicka. Shane Shayna for Sufs.

[B]

I will.

[A]

I hope Izzy Michaela is up for Water for Elephants.

[B]

Oh, I. If Eden Espinosa is in this mix.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a big.

[A]

Is Lindsay going to be up for leading or supporting for Merrily is the question.

[B]

If they were smart, supporting.

[A]

That's what I think, too.

[B]

If they were smart about it. But who knows? She's already got her Tony.

[A]

I know.

[B]

She also might be like, I don't give a shit.

[A]

They've been smart up until now. Marilee's been very smart about how they've been doing it because they also have not been putting any of them separately for promos. It's always been the three of them.

[B]

So good. It's so smart.

[A]

It's so smart.

[B]

Whoever's. I don't know who the producers are, so please forgive me. Whoever's producing it is produced producing it so smartly.

[A]

Yeah. Because like they go on Kelly Clarkson and it's them together.

[B]

Oh, it's so good. It's so good.

[A]

I think they've gone separately on Colbert, but other than that, it's them together. Sonia Friedman is the head producer. Very brilliant. But, you know, it's. It's the.

[B]

Maria's sister, right?

[A]

Yeah. The whole marketing has been like. It's about the three of them. Which genius to go to. What you're saying earlier. I don't think much is different about this production from London and when they did it, the Huntington. It's just that the three of them have such chemistry that it's sells it.

[B]

Great, Great. I love it. That's what you want? That's what you want?

[A]

Absolutely. So musical. I said the Notebook.

[B]

You have the notebook. You have suffs.

[A]

I said suffs. Water for Elephants.

[B]

Water for Elephants.

[A]

I'm gonna say the Outsiders and then I'm gonna say Operation Mincemeat when that announces and comes in.

[B]

So that's closing out how to Dance in Ohio.

[A]

Yes. I think how to Dance in Ohio is gonna be a nothing nominee.

[B]

So that's not part of the conversation.

[A]

No, I think score what we have. We've got Outsider, we've got the Notebook, Suffs, Lempicka, Days of Wine and Roses, and then either Hero Lies Love or Water for Elephants for Number Five.

[B]

And Here Lies Love will not be a best musical. Eminem.

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

So you're closing out and Once Upon a One More Time, right? That would count.

[A]

It counts as the best musical.

[B]

Yeah, but those. Anything that opened past. I'm sorry, before 2024. You're closing out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Those are my. Those are my musical nominees, my actress nominees. Okay. Actor nominees. I'm also. I'm not including harmony for musical or score. I think harmony's got a choreography nomination in its future. I think Chip Zion has a best actor nomination. Possibly.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Maybe one of the Harmonists as a supporting actor. Maybe. Maybe. You know, it's tricky because there's so much that is so left unsaid and we don't know, like things that did well for people in the past. That depends on the actor and how things happen. You know, who knows?

[B]

But we know that definitely for best actor in a musical, Jonathan Groff, frontrunner, Chip Syne, Chip Sign. He'll get one. It'll be a legacy one. I mean, yes, I'm sure he's very.

[A]

Talented, but it's Brian, Darcy James.

[B]

Brian d' Arcy James. Maybe the old guy from the Notebook.

[A]

Maybe the old guy from a book. Eddie Redmayne for Cabaret.

[B]

That's five.

[A]

That's five. And, like, we're not even including Grant Gustin for Water for Elephants.

[B]

We're not including do six. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. Young kid from Back to the Future. What's his name? Casey. Likes. He's not.

[B]

Plus the Outsiders.

[A]

Plus the Outsiders, whoever's playing Ponyboy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Outsiders. I am very fascinated by. Because. Just because I think it could be something such a good musical. And the reviews from out of town were encouraging, but not raves. So, again, it's a matter of, like, did they do work? Did they do any work on it? Famously, there's no one. There's no men in Suffs. I wonder.

[B]

There's no leading men.

[A]

There's no men at all in stuffs.

[B]

No. This is the Wiz.

[A]

Oh, the Wiz. No leading men in the Wiz.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's Dorothy for leading actress. If. When Hell's Kitchen comes in, there is a leading actress in that who is very lovely. She's got an amazing voice. But I just think that book is rough. It's such a rough book.

[B]

Now, when you say it's coming in, is that, like, a definite or you. Are you thinking it's gonna come in? You know what I mean?

[A]

I have been told that they have a theater booked.

[B]

Okay. So there is a theater book. Okay.

[A]

And if you see it at the Public, it's the same thing I felt when I saw Hamilton, where I was like, you're basically telling people, give us 5 million more dollars in a larger space and we'll give you the world.

[B]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[A]

I don't think that they can cash that check, but that is sort of what they're daring you. And I felt that same way about Days of Wine and Rose at the. At the Atlantic Roads. Like. And that's also Michael Greifer. Like, it feels like you're telling us, give us, you know, hydraulics and we'll give you a better set. And I'm like, I don't think that that's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

True.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. But that's. That's what it felt like. Heart of rock and Roll. I mean, I don't know. I know Doyle did it at the Old Globe. I don't know who's gonna do it on Broadway.

[B]

Oh, is Sinatra coming in?

[A]

I hope not.

[B]

Would that be. No.

[A]

I mean, if it comes in, it's not coming in this season. But also, like, I'm sorry, I. This is where I'm gonna be an Asshole.

[B]

Take it away, asshole.

[A]

When I tell you that there's a bio jukebox musical about Frank Sinatra that his family has signed off on, directed by Kathleen Marshall, does that sound like something that's going to be dramatically compelling? Does it? Think about who Frank Sinatra was as a man, what his life was like, who he was and what he did.

[B]

He was a fucking monster.

[A]

Yeah. And his family, who's trying to protect his legacy. This again, this is the same dynamic as, like, think about mj, the musical that his family and estate signed off on. Yeah. They do not acknowledge anything about him that was problematic.

[B]

The man was a monster talent with some demons, some issues that they.

[A]

I have not seen it. I refuse to pay money to see it. I will see if someone gives me a free ticket. But from everything I've understood, that book is basically like, their acknowledgment of his demons are sort of like, yeah, we've heard about the people who are trying to bring him down. Never mind moving on. Like, that's it. That's it.

[B]

Amazing. I can't wait. Okay.

[A]

It's like doing a Roman Polanski musical and being like, he never owned a hot tub. What are you talking about? No, no one. He never owned a hot tub that anyone was ever in. What are you talking about?

[B]

He's never come back to America. Just can't get a good flight.

[A]

Exactly. He can never book a flight. They're always canceling it. Is that weird? Damn. Delta.

[B]

All right, let's sing again. No, that. Oh, that would be funny. Actually. A Roman Polanski musical, they tried.

[A]

It was called Lolita, My love.

[B]

Oh. Oh, Jesus. That's a rough one. That's a rough one, kids. That one's coming in this season, isn't it?

[A]

Lolita, My love.

[B]

Yeah. We've been waiting for this one, haven't we?

[A]

Yeah. Starring James Barber.

[B]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Matt Koplik. Friends on a roll tonight.

[A]

On a roll. We went through a whole bottle of wine. Y' all.

[B]

On a roll.

[A]

I hope. I don't. I don't desire Sinatra coming in. I don't. Like you watched Dorothy Louden do vodka.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Or her coked out Broadway baby on the Tonys.

[B]

Yes. We were just talking about this.

[A]

I think I have an episode where I talk about it, too. With her painted legs. You either watch that and you go, my God. Or you watch and you go. I don't get it.

[B]

But it's giving you a choice. It's giving you something you won't Forget it. You won't forget it. You can love it or hate it, and that's how people thought. And that's what you want. You want. I don't want art where I go. Huh. I want to go, I hated them or I love them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You got to take me to both ends of the extreme, because all this safe middle ground. Okay. Is not doing it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's not getting people at the box office, and it's not getting a future generation excited, because all it's training now is people going, oh, uh, is acceptable because you have adequate. Is acceptable.

[A]

You have straight plays that come to the. To the lip of the stage and go, this is important. And you're gonna feel depressed. And if you don't feel depressed, this play isn't important. And no one's feeling engaged. They feel lectured to.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then you have. And then if musicals that go, well, we're just trying to hit you over the head with high belting and candy confection.

[B]

Musicals and plays. You're out. You just hit the nail on the head. Musicals and plays. I think now go. Audiences are stupid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're gonna come out and tell you. Musicals. We can't. All you really can understand is when people are yelling loudly. So that's all we're gonna give you. We don't want to tax the this too much. And same with plays. We don't want you to see the opposite side of an issue. We don't want to make you think too hard. We don't want to do that. So we're just going to pat you on the back for taking the right stand of a moral issue. Congratulations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Give me a play that says to me, this is why Donald Trump was the best president ever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Give me that play. Give me that play. Challenge me. Yeah, I remember. Did you remember? What the hell was it called? American. Not American Psycho American. It was Son, American Son with Kerry Washington. Okay. That. Do you see that play?

[A]

I read it. Where are you going with this?

[B]

Okay. Would you like it?

[A]

Did I like reading it? No. Okay, but talk to me.

[B]

The play was literally 90 minutes of telling you something that you as an audience already knew.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which was, unfortunately, black people are treated. Mistreated by police officers most of the time. Right. 90 minutes of that, and you saw what the ending was a mile away. But throughout the play, she keeps saying to Jeremy Jordan, who was in it, I think, as, like, another police officer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She says, I want to speak to your supervisor. I want to speak to the commanding officer. Because I know what goes on with police officers. I know how you treat young black men. And he goes, let me get my superior. And the guy comes in and he's a black detective. And I'm like, now that's the play. Yeah, that's the play. She says she's been saying this entire time, white cops are racists. All cops are racist. Now she's facing a cop who is black. Now what is she gonna say and what's he gonna say to convince? And I thought to myself, I'm like, this is the fucking play.

[A]

You wanna know what makes.

[B]

This is dramatic?

[A]

You wanna. One of the. One of the best storylines in the first season of Handmaid's Tale is it's between Elizabeth Moss and what's her face from Zachary Levi's old TV show. Do you know what I'm talking about? Did you watch Handmaid's Tale?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, but I don't know.

[A]

The wife of the commander who's, like, raping a trial.

[B]

She was so good. You remember him? She was in Zachary Levi show.

[A]

I feel like Julianne Moore in 30 Rock, that movie with the girl with the forehead. But.

[B]

Oh, her. Yes, but you were saying the wife.

[A]

Of the commander, because she's a woman in Gilead who is, you know, happy with how it's going with a Handmaid who's like, the fuck is wrong with you? And it's these two. Like, they're both women. You know, it's not sisterhood.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's two women of opposite ends of the spectrum. And that is conflict.

[B]

Yes. And that's what you. And to me, I was like, now, that's the play going back to American Son. That's the play I want to see.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do these two people that have been so oppressed by this police organization, how does one of them work for them? And how did they. I'm like, show me this play.

[A]

There is.

[B]

But they didn't want to do that.

[A]

There is a play that's coming up in Problematic that we talk about that. Is the play a play?

[B]

Oh, a play. Yes.

[A]

An actual play that was in New York in the last two years that is in the Problematic series that I think is a brilliant play.

[B]

What is it you want to talk about? I'm curious what the title is.

[A]

I'll bleep it out.

[B]

Okay. I didn't see it.

[A]

You know what it's about, though, right?

[B]

Yeah, but I don't see it. Yeah.

[A]

Just the premise alone. It's like, oh, Jesus. What's. What's gonna happen There. But it really, like, it's a challenging play.

[B]

Good.

[A]

It really. With your sense of empathy and understanding.

[B]

That's what you want. I know that's what you want. I remember reading one of your Frank Rich's book of reviews that he collected.

[A]

It's literally sitting behind you.

[B]

Is it really hot seat? It's one of the.

[A]

Rob is literally sitting behind you.

[B]

Oh, Jesus, there he is. And you know what? Ghost Light is the book that I also have that I tell all my theater students to read, because to me, I think it's the most beautiful.

[A]

Frank Rich is, my opinion, the best critic the Times has ever had.

[B]

That is correct. But in this, he's talking about the play Aunt Dan and Lemon that Wallace Shawn did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he said, what makes that play so fascinating is you're watching this free spirited woman like Auntie Mame, who turns out halfway through to go, you know, the Nazis had some pretty good ideas. And he goes, you could feel a whole audience go, what?

[A]

What?

[B]

What? I loved you. You mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not. You're complex and that's what you want. Yeah, those are the type. And because he talked a lot about that, I think, like in plays in the 80s where it really was like, nuclear war is wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Congratulations, everybody. No, show me a play that says nuclear war is absolutely what we need.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Show me why we need to beat the Russians. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, show me these plays.

[A]

That is why David Mamet at the time was such a welcome presence, because he was that kind of person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He eventually went off the deep end, but there was a sweet spot with Mamet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a minute. For like more than a minute. Like 15 years.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Where he was able to do that.

[B]

I think playwrights like him. You're right. And he's gone off the deep end. Neil Labute, I also thought used to be a very interesting.

[A]

There was a minute. Talk about a minute. There was a minute with a butte.

[B]

Yeah. Early labute, shape of things.

[A]

Yeah. I think fat pig might have been like the last lebut.

[B]

That was a tough one to say.

[A]

That pig or reasons to be pretty. One was which one was. Which one was the last one?

[B]

I think reasons to be.

[A]

No, wait.

[B]

To be pretty. Right.

[A]

Yeah, that was. That was the one that was closest.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Most recent.

[B]

Most recent. But.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But those the types of playwrights I like to see.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I like to be challenged. And that's what drove me crazy about American Son. I'm like, you have a play Here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're scared. I think you're scared, and that's why.

[A]

I'm very excited we have Paula Vogel doing Mother Play. I don't. I know nothing about it other than we got Ms. Cherry Jones.

[B]

She's a good one. Paula Vogel.

[A]

Paula Vogel wrote one of my favorite plays of all time, which is how I learned to drive.

[B]

Such a good play. That's another one. Sympathize with a child molester.

[A]

Yeah. Fucking play with your empathy. Well, and I've talked about that play a little bit, and I'll. And I'll talk about it again when we talk about Beep. But just a play where it's. I. We're not telling you that this person is in the right. We're not telling you that the playwright wants you to empathize. The playwright is opening the door up a little bit to challenge you. Because if everything is clear cut, that doesn't do anything for you. The world is not clear cut. Why should this moment on stage be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is nowhere where drama goes to live. Narration is where drama goes to die as well. And what's fascinating is how I learned to drive has a lot of narration, and for some reason in that play, it works well.

[B]

It's different. It's different.

[A]

Yeah. But like, in Hell's Kitchen, there's so much narration. Like, so much. It's where I'm like, there's no drama here. It's.

[B]

Ask yourself, what's the purpose of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's. When they talk to me? What's the purpose of them talking to me?

[A]

And there's narration and prayer for the French Republic as well. Another play where I'm like, I liked that play a great deal. Should be trimmed a bit. And I like Josh Harmon, I think. Significant other.

[B]

Oh, brilliant. Brilliant playwright.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Bad Jews.

[A]

Bad Jews. Oh, my God. Best play this year is gonna be interesting because we got Prayer for the French Republic, which honestly, at the moment, will probably win. It's the most, like, prestigious of them all. Ja Jaw's African hair braiding, which is so delightful. Mother play I know nothing about, but it's Vogel. I'm there. Mary Jane did very well at New York Theater Workshop, but who knows what's gonna happen here? And it's Rachel McAdams, so God bless Teresa Reeback. Gonna sweep the award to the. I need that.

[B]

If she does, I'm quitting the business.

[A]

My son's a queer, but what can you do?

[B]

You see Bernhard, Hamlet, I did Theresa Reback. Okay.

[A]

I enjoy Janet McTeer that's nice. Beautiful gowns. That was a play I loved Tayshia Rebeck saying, you know what's not a good play?

[B]

Hamlet from Theresa Reeveck. If someone knows something about bad plays.

[A]

Yeah, you know what that's like? That's like Michael Bay going, you know, it's not a good movie. The Apartment.

[B]

Too slow.

[A]

Too slow. I don't. I don't enjoy that. There's not a moment where Charlie McLean looks in the camera and goes, I'm about to fuck a married man. Again, that's morally bad.

[B]

That's what I really needed because otherwise I was just confused.

[A]

Yeah. Michael Bay goes, there's no explosions. His apartment doesn't blow up.

[B]

That's actually. That would be a really good movie of the apartment. It just explodes. It just takes you on a journey you weren't expecting.

[A]

That's. That's what Oppenheimer did. It was to course correct the apartment. I'm not trying to be a Rick McKay of what happened to the golden age because he's dead, but I'm trying to.

[B]

I remember I was at Barbara Bel Geddes gynecologist appointment when I heard Barbara.

[A]

Belgetti's went to see your gynecologist. And Greta Gerg went, that's a line for a movie, but you know what I mean? Like, we need that. That energy. We need that fire. And it happens. Just happens so rarely. And what doesn't help is when people go, you know what's a coup de theatre? All of harmony. All of. I need that. All of Aunt Juliet, the turntable of. And Juliet. A coup. Dean.

[B]

The next time I see you and I see something I don't like and you ask me how it is, I'm gonna be like, it was a coute. I'm gonna start using coup de tiatre more and more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, tell me a new phrase.

[A]

You know, it's a coutte theatre.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

And Hathaway being a part of the gang in Ocean's Eight.

[B]

You know, it's a coup deatre film.

[A]

You know, it's a coud.

[B]

Just all a film.

[A]

All the film. You know, it's a coup de theatre. Scarlett Johansson being dead at the end of Jojo Rabbit, her feet showing up.

[B]

That's a coup.

[A]

That's a coup.

[B]

That's a real coup de tia.

[A]

I enjoyed that film a great deal.

[B]

Did you really?

[A]

I did. And apparently film people don't like it. But I liked it.

[B]

Jojo Rabbit. Yeah, I liked it.

[A]

I thought. I thought that was a good adapted screenplay win.

[B]

I've seen a lot of good films lately.

[A]

You know what? We haven't been that passionate about anything this season as we've been talking. And I'm excited for the Notebook, but I'm not, I'm not over the moon excited.

[B]

You know what it is?

[A]

I'm gonna, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[B]

I'm gonna sound like such an asshole and please forgive me because I was just talking about this with someone, which is one of my biggest pet peeves is when someone gives me a full on review of something and I'm like, when did you see it? And they go, I never saw it. And I don't like that. But this, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I look at the season and I look at most of these shows and I go, why? And that's what bothers me. Why are we doing this?

[A]

We've got.

[B]

Why do we need a play about what happens on the set of Jaws? And that's. And you know what? Honestly, a valid answer is cuz it's fucking funny. That's a valid answer. To me, that is a valid answer.

[A]

If it were funny.

[B]

Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. But like I will even take that as a valid answer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm just like, why, why, why are we doing these?

[A]

And before you think that either one of us are assholes, just know that everyone who's working on Broadway feels the same way.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

No one is saying it out loud, but if you are friends with anybody who works on Broadway and you go to Joe Allen or Bar Centrali.

[B]

Oh yeah, go to Joe Allen.

[A]

Yeah, have, have a bourbon and they will tell you. Everyone feels it.

[B]

I was at Joel and a couple of days ago and it was literally like a spy movie because you could hear snatches of conversation. You could hear someone go, oh, did you, you know, did you see Water for elephants? And then a look over the shoulder and look over the shoulder and then dive in and conferring and whispering, you know what I mean?

[A]

I literally was at Joe Allen a few weeks ago and I heard someone talking about the cottage and Eric McCormick walked in and they shut up because what they were saying was not positive. And the cottage is. The cottage is not the worst thing I've ever seen. It was perfectly fine and it was different. We haven't seen a Noel Coward esque play in a long, long time.

[B]

Great. Someone's given trying something. Awesome. Great.

[A]

The writer tried something. Jason Alexander decided he wanted to direct a very different play.

[B]

Great.

[A]

They both were decisions, a mostly solid cast. We forget how charming Laura Bell Bundy is.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Dana Steingold. Give her another vehicle. But, you know, it was something. But this person was not being complimentary towards the show. And then McCormick walked in and they shut the fuck up. But again, things that everyone's thinking and talking about, but just not openly and not in a way that's constructive, because the moment you go, I want to give you feedback that's not wholly positive, but I think it can make you better.

[B]

You're an asshole.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You're an asshole. And I always say that when I direct, which is when I give you a note. Right now you're giving me good. And I know you have great inside you. I know there's great within you. So don't you want me to, like, help pull you up?

[A]

So, okay, I. When I wrote my very first screenplay, knowing Eric, I might have placed in a few competitions. No big deal.

[B]

But it's sitting on my desktop, folks.

[A]

That, too. Yes.

[B]

I. I read the first page, and I thought it was really charming.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I sent it, I was. I. Someone who helped me work on it was the father of a friend of mine who is a successful screenwriter, because I wanted his opinion.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it was. It reminded me very much of, like, Sondheim and Hammerstein. When Hammerstein was like, Sondheim, your first musical. It sucks. If you want to know why, let's talk about it. And he didn't say it sucked. He liked it. But he was like, you've got a lot of work to do.

[B]

Great.

[A]

And he's like, and if you want to know why, here it is. And the first thing he said was, write down everything I say. If you disagree with any of it, that's totally cool.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's like, however, you need to explain to me why you disagree.

[B]

Great.

[A]

He goes, if I give you a note and you can't defend yourself, you just like what you did. He's like, that's not enough.

[B]

That's not a good. No. No, it's not. I have worked with so many writers, new writers on new shows, And I'm like, you don't get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't get it. I give you criticism to make you better, and it's. Oh, well, I liked it that way, but it's not. I'm reading it from an objective point of view. I'm the audience. I'm telling you. Well, I'm not saying it to hear myself talk.

[A]

Someone was Talking about some show they were working on where it was like a musical where the song. It was a song that totally stopped the show, like a big audience pleaser, but it didn't do anything for the show.

[B]

Cut it.

[A]

Yeah. And they. The writers wouldn't. Because it was stopping the show.

[B]

I think we are going back. I think. I think musical theater construction right now is cyclical. I think we're actually going back to the 1920s.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Where it was like, songs come first, great entertainment comes first. And then the story. Sorry, we're not really working on that right now.

[A]

That is the hell that the YouTube musical concerts hath wrought.

[B]

Yeah. And that's. And that's when your.

[A]

When your song goes viral. Yeah.

[B]

And that's what we're dealing with right now, which is. I don't think all these people that are working today, I don't think they're any. Well, talent and craft, I think, is different, but I don't think what their goal is is any different than the people from the 1920s, which was, let's put out music that's. Let's put on a show that entertains. We don't want them thinking too hard.

[A]

I want to separate Jeanitasuri from that because she. She is not that person. And I don't want her mad at me because I think she's the fucking tits. But she's the exception, not the rule.

[B]

Oh, there's a handful of writers that are the exception to the rule.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But what I'm.

[A]

But I agree. I agree with you.

[B]

What I'm saying is right now, like, if you listen to any of these, like, musical theater writing class, and I'm like, you can't a. A writing class.

[A]

Listen when I tell you Shoshana Bean has a number in the second act of Hell's Kitchen. When I tell you that it brings the house down. It do.

[B]

Great.

[A]

It's one of two numbers that do, and it is a number that has no business being there. It is when Brandon Victor Dixon, you know, dumbass ex husband, father of her child, shows up and then fails again to be a good dad. And she, like. And in a very subtle, not super important way. And she, like, goes to his audition for a gig, sings in his face about how he's awful and, like, needs to leave them alone and, like, tells everyone in the room he's awful and, like, walks out of the room. And then, like, that doesn't. It doesn't end up amounting to anything, but because Shoshana is Shoshana.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It slays. And I'm like, that number shouldn't be there. It has no reason to exist. Give her a number that has a reason to exist where she can slay.

[B]

But she's. But the audience is so happy because.

[A]

We'Re applauding Shoshana, who is topping it.

[B]

And for them, that's enough.

[A]

That is enough.

[B]

And that's. And that's the problem.

[A]

It's up. We're back in the Princess Theater, all of us.

[B]

We all are. We all are. This is. It's literally we're going cyclical. It's going.

[A]

And we always do. We always do. Does this mean that you and I are primed to become the next Hammerstein and Rogers and just. And just fuck everything up and become amazing?

[B]

No, I think we're the team of Jackson and Roth. And if you don't know who they are, that's the main issue that I'm talking about.

[A]

Jordan Roth and Michael R. Jackson.

[B]

Oh, then you have heard of them. Okay, great. Thanks so much. Let me pack up my microphone and leave. No, I would love that. I would love that. I. All I'm asking. I'm not asking for a lot. What I'm asking for simply is, does this move the story along? And do you remember there's an audience that's watching?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you go into that workshop and you all jerk off because you think that somebody did a funny bit of business, is it funny because it's the person, or is it funny because it's helping the character? What are we doing? What are we doing? Because you're gonna have to have a bunch of people watch it. Give them something that's worth their time and money. But, yeah, this season, I know that's what I was brought on for, and I apologize. But, like, this season, to me, is a bunch of, why are we doing this?

[A]

That has honestly been me for a while now, and especially post Covid.

[B]

Oh, I don't even. If you had a time machine and Hemi on this podcast, we'd have a whole other discussion.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That, to me, was the bit. I can't even. I can't even talk about that.

[A]

There's also a lot of musicals, not a musical plays too, that have been coming to Broadway where I'm like, you're not ready. They come and I go, I'm glad you got the money. And then you got the momentum. You're not ready to come to Broadway. You need another go at it.

[B]

So funny. I was looking at a show from a. This was about 30 years ago, you know, the musical Paper Moon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

Ebersole did it at Papermill.

[B]

Yeah. So I do this concert actually. Can I plug my new podcast?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great. So I do this series at 54 below called Broadway Bound. And it's. We take songs from musicals that didn't come into Broadway, and we introduce them to people to be like, hey, there's great material out there that maybe didn't even get to play New York City.

[A]

I think I might have heard of it.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Is it possible that I might be in one of those?

[B]

Maybe on the December 7th concert at 7:00pm at 54 below, you might be making an appearance in a Mr. Koplik.

[A]

Yes. I might be singing.

[B]

And he's gonna sound gorgeous. And I'm very excited. It's a great. We have a bunch of great fucking shows up there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, so I'm starting a new podcast which is gonna be the same thing. It's literally the show anyway. But I was doing research on Paper Moon. Paper Moon. By the way, friends, if you never heard it, no worries about it. It's a great score. Score is fantastic, and the script is fantastic. And after they got done at, I think, Goodspeed, they were supposed to go to Broadway. The marquee was up, literally at the Marquis Theater. And the director, who was also the writer, said, no, we're not ready. And they stopped the show and he wanted to go work on it. And unfortunately, they never materialized again. But I'm like, can you imagine today someone saying, this is not good enough to put up in front of a paying audience? And, yes, I know our marquee is up, and I know people think we're coming in, but I don't think we have the best possible product here.

[A]

Very. Doesn't happen anymore.

[B]

And we've seen it. We've seen it. But also, unlike micro levels in the past, like. Like you were saying, Michael Bennett going, yeah, I know this number is good. It can be great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're going to work like motherfuckers till we get it. Great.

[A]

The stories that go on about Follies, when they were out of town, the number of. They did that prologue, like, 10 different ways before they finally got. And it was like the last day in Boston that they finally nailed it.

[B]

That's great. That's what you want. I honestly think that workshops hurt musicals so much because it's not a real audience.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

It's your friends, it's your family. It's people that are wanting this to succeed that have plunked down $0.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a false narrative. I'm gonna mention two people's names, and I know who they are and what they've done. Garth Trabinski.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Scott rudin.

[A]

Well, Garth, pre 2000.

[B]

You don't want to include Suzatsuka in this conversation.

[A]

I just know that he ruined Paradise Square from everyone I know who was involved in that show.

[B]

Great.

[A]

He made it ten times worse. Great.

[B]

Awesome. We'll take him out of that equation for that.

[A]

For that particular pre 2000. Pre 2000, though, you're correct.

[B]

But that's what you need, an advocate for an audience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You need someone that goes, they're paying. They have saved and scrimped and saved and said, we're not gonna have dinner tonight because we're gonna see this show instead. You have to give them that. And I think we've lost that. I think we've lost that. And I think you can do it nicely. I don't think you have to be Scott Rudin throwing things. I don't think you have to be Garth Drabinski yelling and screaming. But I think you need. You need an actual, genuine advocate.

[A]

Yeah. People, again, people get for an audience. People in the industry have gotten too comfortable, as you said, where it's. It's become, you know, well, you can make a nice living and you can be a nice person. It's all, you know, Valium induced placid fever dream. And it's like, okay, but where's the passion? Where's the person who, like, moved to New York with $10 and a dream, with a side hustle to be on that stage, to work in that theater? You know, where's the blood, sweat and tears? I don't know many shows in the last couple of years that have really excited me in the way that they used to excite people. I love Kimberly Akimbo, and I think that it's a wonderful. I think it's a wonderful musical, but it doesn't really excite me in the same way that Fun Home did. I've seen Kimberly a few times, and I. I've said before, like, I wonder if Kimberly had opened in 2015, if I would be as obsessed with it as I am if it came out the same year as Fun Home or came out the same year as Matilda or. Yeah, probably not. And it's. It's lovely. It's a wonderful show. But it's Fun Home, I still believe is the best musical written of this century.

[B]

Do you really?

[A]

I really do. Wow. Especially in its Broadway incarnation. I thought it was a 10 out of 10 at the public and then they moved it to Broadway. It was an 11 out of 10 at the circle.

[B]

You really loved it.

[A]

I think it's. I think that show is gorgeously written. I think that Broadway production was incredible.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[A]

Sam Gold, you know, I know he's now become who he is, but that staging was gorgeous, that cast was gorgeous.

[B]

As long as he's not doing a revival, I'm in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Honestly.

[A]

Let's see what he do. And there have been so many other wonderful shows of this. Of this entry. I think Piazza is a beautiful musical. I have a new appreciation for that book. After Encores Spelling Bee is a wonderful show. Urinetown is incredibly smart. Unfortunately has now wrought the meta musical, which I don't love, but that shows show got it right. Yeah.

[B]

I didn't like you're in Town.

[A]

I like youe're In Town. It's a show that's very hard to do. Well, Matilda, I think, is a beautiful musical. I would like a new version that's not as intrinsic dance wise.

[B]

Sure. Is that Sondheim as a nutcracker up there?

[A]

No, that's just a nutcracker. I do have a nutcracker on my. On my shelf. Okay, give me your five predictions for best musical right now. My five predictions for best musical right now.

[B]

Notebook, Outsiders. I am gonna throw. Oh, suffs. Suphs. I am gonna throw in how to Dance in Ohio.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I think that's. I think that's gonna get a nomination. I don't know why. Just feel it in my bones. And what are my other options?

[A]

There's Water for Elephants. There's Here Lies Love. Boop. In Hell's Kitchen, Days of Wine and Roses. Lempicka.

[B]

Lempicka.

[A]

Okay, so you have Outsiders, Suffs, Notebook, Lempicka, and How to Dance in Ohio.

[B]

Okay, wait, that sounds weak. Do it one more time for me.

[A]

The Notebook, the Outsiders, Lempicka, how to Dance in Ohio.

[B]

And Suffs take out how to Dance in Ohio, put in Water for Elephants.

[A]

I love how that was like your big ace in the hole and when pressured just a little bit, you immediately retracted.

[B]

No, I'm not stupid. I'm not stupid.

[A]

No, listen, I wish nothing but the best for any musical this season. If it's good, I want it to succeed. I haven't seen it. I hope. I hope the best.

[B]

I say the same thing, and I mean it so much. And I know you do too. Prove us wrong. Yeah, prove me Wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Prove me wrong. And I want to be proven wrong. I want to go in going, it's going to be okay. And then it's going to be fantastic. I will be the first one to say I was wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Prove me wrong.

[A]

Listen, I went into Jaja thinking I would find it okay. It was Manhattan Theater Club and people liked it. And I was like, people? Manhattan Theater Club. I'm gonna hate this shit. Or at the very least, find it okay? And I thought it was so fucking delightful. I love that. I love it when something is so wonderful and it takes you by surprise.

[B]

Oh, it's the best feeling on the earth.

[A]

Absolutely. Even better than when you go in hoping to love something, and it's amazing when you go in thinking, like, it's gonna be whatever, and it's wonderful.

[B]

My God, the best. Kimberly Akimbo. Was that for me?

[A]

Mmm. I was hoping Kimberly was gonna be good because.

[B]

Oh, same.

[A]

Well, just because I'm a horror fit to. Sorry. I'm a. I'm a Tahori. And she knows it. We've met. She knows how I feel about her. I'm like, you know, you could bend me over a mini fridge. And she was like, yeah, I've done it, baby.

[B]

What the hell goes on when I'm not around?

[A]

Not while you're around.

[B]

Not to worry, not to worry. I'm gonna go in for Toby.

[A]

Please do.

[B]

If he can play Sweeney, I'm gonna be Toby. It here.

[A]

Okay, here's.

[B]

Bets are off.

[A]

Here's my. My big question is best score, do we think of our.

[B]

The Notebook.

[A]

Sorry, Notebook obviously is a nominee here.

[B]

Okay, here are the Notebook.

[A]

Here are options for best score in terms of, like, what's okay here? What's. Here's what's eligible so far. Because then there's also people going like, well, it's Gutenberg revival or a new musical. It's. It's a revival. And Here Lies Love is a new musical. Deal with it. That's what's gonna happen. Our eligibility shows. That's not for score. For score. Water for Elephants. Outsiders. Notebook. Suffs. Lempicka, how to Dance in Ohio. Days of Wine and Roses. Here Lies Love. So that's eight already, I think Harmony.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, I got mine.

[A]

And then if. Oh, we. I already forgot about Operation Mincemeat, but operation mincemeat, that's 10. And Back to the Future 11.

[B]

No, no. Notebook Suffs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A Water for Elephants.

[A]

There is some beautiful music in Elephants. I will say.

[B]

Give me. Give me the list again. I'm sorry. Notebook, Suffs, Water for Elephants.

[A]

We're just fully canceling Days of Wine.

[B]

And Roses number four.

[A]

Yeah, you can't cancel out Gettle. If Gettle's gonna get nominated for Mockingbird, he's getting nominated. Days and Ones and Roses.

[B]

And then number five is going to be Lempicka. Lempicka.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's your five.

[A]

It's a good five.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Unless we get a six. I don't know. No, we got the. We got six best musical nominees in 2022.

[B]

Can you believe how lucky were we?

[A]

And they were all wonderful.

[B]

I was living in a golden age. I didn't even know.

[A]

It was a strange. It was a strange loop. 6. Mr. Saturday Night, Girl from the North country and MJ und Paradise Square.

[B]

Best song in Mr. Saturday Night Tahiti.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Randy Graff singing Tahiti.

[A]

Oh, that's. That's the. That when we bonded over that at your apartment, that's how we knew we were friends.

[B]

Yes. That's the best thing ever.

[A]

Tahiti.

[B]

I wanna go to Tahiti. I just watched it last night.

[A]

Of course he did. Oh, Shosh.

[B]

Shosh.

[A]

Shosh did what she needed to do to get that Tony nomination.

[B]

She did a great job in that show.

[A]

When did she not do a great job?

[B]

Remember when they had her play an 8 year old girl?

[A]

Remember when Shoshana Bean said I'm better than any of this and she still got a Tony nomination?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's just Shana bean.

[B]

I love Mr. And.

[A]

And you never get the condescend. A condescension from her performance. She comes on stage and you're like, you and I both know you're better than this. But you're not showing it.

[B]

She never advertises it.

[A]

You go off stage in your dressing room and you go, I know I'm better.

[B]

And she goes on a better job. Yeah, she's fabulous. I think she's.

[A]

And that's professionalism.

[B]

And that's professionalism.

[A]

All right, I think that's. We're gonna call it a quits because this has been a five hour podcast.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, pal.

[A]

That's fine.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

No, I've been happy.

[B]

Okay. I'm sorry.

[A]

All right, Rob, any other things about the season you want people to take away before we move on?

[B]

Yeah, let's make this the year of honesty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if we.

[A]

You go see. And accountability.

[B]

And accountability. You go see a show, you post that. You went to see it. That's amazing. You didn't like it. You don't gotta say nothing. No. What I don't want to have happen is see something wonderful on your Instagram. And then I'll be like, oh, my God, I saw you loved water for elephants. And then you're like, oh, my God, it was the worst piece of shit. I don't want that.

[A]

No. Who does that? Who does that serve?

[B]

It serves. It doesn't make anyone better.

[A]

No. Because then if someone goes to see it because you said you loved it so much and then they didn't like it, they feel tricked.

[B]

And feel free to tell myself or Matt, if you ever see anything that we create and you don't like, tell. I'd rather know than not know.

[A]

Oh. People tell me all the time that I'm not good, then I'm not good. Oh, I love when people like, how would you like it if so. And so. And I was.

[B]

I was like, I would love it.

[A]

I was like, first of all, do you think people don't do that to me?

[B]

I would love my own friends.

[A]

Tell me what I'm lacking as a human being.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Really? Oh, yeah.

[B]

King is a human being.

[A]

Oh, yeah. What's.

[B]

What's your personal goal for the season? Not even for theater, but for you.

[A]

Something to excite me again.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I haven't been exactly. I fell deeply in love with Kimberly. I found Jaja delightful. I found Pearly delightful. Nothing so far this season has made me go like it has begun. I need. I need that excitement. I'm hoping it's one of the musicals, one of the plays. Doubt. Tyne Daley, hopefully. Maybe. I'm looking so forward to Rachel McAdams's Broadway debut. Sarah Paulson, who I saw at Union Square. No, Washington Square park, actually. I saw Washington. Washington Square park walking her dogs. That was lovely. That was a gay rights moment.

[B]

That's Holland Taylor.

[A]

Those weren't her dogs. That was just Holland Taylor. Yeah. No, that's. You're looking for honesty and accountability. I'm looking for excitement and energy. I'm looking for something to make it feel real.

[B]

Well, let's hope to God that we find it. And let's hope to God that your listeners find it as well.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that's. That's what we all want, and it'll be wonderful. It'll be a wonderful day in the neighborhood.

[B]

I love that. I love that. And then what's on your problematic podcast.

[A]

Coming up, the first episode that is gonna be released, I know for a.

[B]

Fact, is the prom Build a prom for everyone.

[A]

Not for everyone.

[B]

Not for everyone. Oh, man. Oh, I wish I could. Okay.

[A]

I also can tell you that we have episodes covering Carousel, Downstate, the King and I, the Inheritance, Promises, Promises.

[B]

Oh, really? Okay.

[A]

Heather's. So I. These are all shows that had. That got multiple submissions. I did not take any show that got only one.

[B]

Okay. So that you. Okay, great.

[A]

Because if you take only the number one, then, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then possibly Dear Van Hansen, possibly Grease, possibly Slave Play, I have a few people who have put pins in those. And we're just waiting about scheduling and all that shit. But so we'll see, we'll see what happens.

[B]

And is the goal of the podcast, like, for them to solve what's problematic about it?

[A]

Like to see if they actually are problematic?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And if they are, is it solvable or is it a disconnect or is it. Who knows? It's a question. The whole series is a giant question.

[B]

Oh, congratulations.

[A]

Thank you so much. Rob. Where can people find you? If you want them to find you.

[B]

You can find me on Instagram obwschneider. You can go to our podcast, behind the Curtain, Broadway's Living Legends. Don't listen to it. It's like the Ring. You'll die afterwards, as most of our guests have done. And then my new podcast, Broadway, the Musicals that Never Came to Broadway, is gonna launch in February. Woo.

[A]

And if you want to see it in person and hear me sing, you can come to 54 below. December 7th, baby.

[B]

Yes, yes. Go see Mr. Koplik. Can I tell you who else is in the cast?

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Janine Lamanna, Ms. Gertrude McFuzz. She's singing from Enter Juliet, which will be great. And Andrew Lipp is gonna do something and that'll be fun. And yeah, it's gonna be filled with lots of little surprises.

[A]

If you wanna follow me, I'm on Instagram at koplik. Usual spelling and that's it. If you wanna like the podcast, give us a nice 5 star rating little review. That'll be wonderful. You know what to do. Every time I get a new review, I read it on the pod and I play the lightning, the Piazza Overture behind it because that is classique, that is classy, and that is everything. And that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening, guys, and have a great time. We'll see you next week. For the beginning of Problematic Rob, we close out every episode with a Broadway diva that I put in post. Who should we close out with tonight?

[B]

Dorothy Loudon.

[A]

Dorothy Loudon. Here we go. Take us away, Dorothy. Bye, pain. And a follow spot. I bet you didn't know what you had when you wrote this one, Steve. Another key change. Maybe all my dreams will be repaid Made for good Borrow.