NINE w/ Kevin Duda - Broadway Breakdown

Summary4 min read

Broadway Breakdown: Episode NINE with Kevin Duda

Podcast Information:

Title: Broadway Breakdown
Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Kevin Duda
Episode: NINE w/ Kevin Duda
Release Date: December 20, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of Broadway Breakdown, host Matt Koplik welcomes longtime friend and guest Kevin Duda to delve deep into the musical "Nine." Both passionate theater enthusiasts, Matt and Kevin explore the intricacies of the show, its historical context, character dynamics, and its enduring legacy on Broadway.

Origins of "Nine"

Kevin begins by sharing his introduction to "Nine" during his freshman year at the Hart School of Music, University of Hartford. He recounts watching upperclassmen perform, which ignited his passion for both theater and the musical itself.

Notable Quote:

Kevin Duda [08:45]: "Watching them navigate this show made me fall in love with both the business and the score."

Adaptation from Fellini's "Eight and a Half"

The discussion shifts to "Nine's" roots, adapted from Federico Fellini's iconic film "Eight and a Half." Kevin explains how Maury Yeston and Arthur Kopit transformed Fellini's introspective narrative into a Broadway spectacle, emphasizing Guido Contini's creative and personal struggles.

Notable Quote:

Matt Koplik [27:00]: "Nine is sort of an evolution of the meta commentary that 'Eight and a Half' began."

Character Dynamics and Representation

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the character of Guido Contini and the women in his life—his wife Louisa, mistress Carla, mother, muse Claudia, and the critical Stephanie Necropoulos. Kevin and Matt analyze how each woman represents different facets of Guido's psyche and personal battles.

Notable Quote:

Kevin Duda [51:02]: "Claudia doesn't just need him; she's in love with the version of him that doesn't exist."

Original Production vs. Revival

The hosts compare the original 2003 Roundabout Theatre revival with the recent Lincoln Center revival. They highlight differences in direction, choreography, costume design, and staging choices that impact the show's reception and storytelling.

Notable Quote:

Matt Koplik [08:34]: "The revival enhances the production but occasionally sacrifices the original's nuanced storytelling."

Musical and Choreographic Analysis

Matt commends Yeston's score for its complexity and emotional depth, while also critiquing certain lyrical choices. They discuss standout numbers like "Unusual Way," "Be Italian," and "The Call from the Vatican," examining how choreography complements the narrative and character development.

Notable Quote:

Matt Koplik [41:09]: "In musicals, songs serve as truth—characters reveal their inner selves through music, making emotions clearer."

Casting Considerations

Kevin shares his thoughts on ideal casting for key roles, emphasizing the importance of vocal prowess and physicality. They brainstorm potential actors who could embody characters like Carla, Louisa, and Claudia, considering both Broadway veterans and emerging talents.

Notable Quote:

Matt Koplik [175:02]: "Claudia, as played by someone like Kate Hudson, brings a blend of innocence and sensuality that's crucial for the role."

Tony Awards Context

The episode touches on the 1982 Tony Awards, where "Nine" faced stiff competition from "Dreamgirls." Matt and Kevin recount the behind-the-scenes campaigning, critical reviews, and the eventual upset victory of "Nine," highlighting its impact on Broadway's landscape.

Notable Quote:

Kevin Duda [141:07]: “'Nine' winning despite 'Dreamgirls' being the favorite shows the raw power of its score and character depth.”

Legacy and Impact

Reflecting on "Nine's" legacy, the hosts discuss its influence on modern musicals, its portrayal of complex female characters, and its exploration of personal and artistic crises. They also ponder how the show's themes remain relevant in today's theatrical environment.

Notable Quote:

Matt Koplik [143:32]: “'Nine' isn’t just a show; it’s a mirror reflecting the tumultuous journey of creativity and self-discovery.”

Personal Insights and Experiences

Kevin opens up about his experiences directing and producing, drawing parallels between his personal life and Guido Contini's struggles. Matt shares anecdotes from his own journey in theater, emphasizing the therapeutic and transformative power of musicals.

Notable Quote:

Kevin Duda [86:00]: “Connecting with a show like 'Nine' is like revisiting a part of yourself you didn’t know was still there.”

Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Matt and Kevin reflect on the enduring allure of "Nine," its multifaceted characters, and the strength of its music and choreography. They invite listeners to engage through their Discord channel and tease future episodes that will continue to explore Broadway’s rich history.

Notable Quote:

Matt Koplik [220:19]: “If 'Nine' teaches us anything, it's to be careful what we wish for in our artistic pursuits.”

Final Thoughts

"NINE w/ Kevin Duda" offers an in-depth exploration of a Broadway classic, blending historical context, character analysis, and personal anecdotes. Matt Koplik and Kevin Duda's passionate discussion provides both seasoned theatergoers and newcomers with valuable insights into the complexities and triumphs of "Nine."

Stay Connected:

Matt Koplik Instagram: @MattKoplik
Kevin Duda Instagram: @KevinDudaGram
Join the Discord: Broadway Breakdown Discord

Support the Podcast: If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a 5-star review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and share it with your theater-loving friends!

Note: All timestamps are approximate and based on the provided transcript segments.

Loading summary

Transcript2,461 lines

[00:00]
Kevin Duda
Hi, I'm Ariana Grande.
[00:02]
Matt Kauflick
Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo and you're listening.
[00:04]
Kevin Duda
To the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit BPM FM to discover more.
[00:13]
Matt Kauflick
This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Big smiles, rocking tunes and epic drinks. Dutch Bros. Is all about you.
[00:21]
Kevin Duda
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[00:25]
Matt Kauflick
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[00:39]
Kevin Duda
14 day expiration terms apply.
[00:41]
Matt Kauflick
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[01:42]
Kevin Duda
Guarda.
[01:43]
Matt Kauflick
It's Guido Contini. Oh my God.
[01:48]
Kevin Duda
Queena Contini is here at the spa. Not since Charlie Chaplin has there ever been a film director like this.
[01:56]
Matt Kauflick
Guido Cotini. This is not what I wanted.
[02:00]
Kevin Duda
Everything he does gets burned your attention. Whether it's a hit or a miss, we don't There is something I forgot to tell you. Is it true that your next project suing you for breach of contract?
[02:14]
Matt Kauflick
Please, one at a time.
[02:16]
Kevin Duda
No one is suing me. What makes anyone think my next project is in trouble? He writes the script.
[02:22]
Matt Kauflick
It's going to be wonderful. He writes the score, make a lot of money.
[02:26]
Kevin Duda
He's a director.
[02:27]
Matt Kauflick
Win a lot of prizes and even more, he's a consumer actor. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history und legacy of American theater's most exclusive Address Broadway. This series is called Grab Bag, and it's covering shows that you selected, submitted, and I picked out of a bowl. I am your host, Matt Kauflick, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with us today is a friend of the pod, though not for many, many years. Since he's been on the pod, he has become daddy. He's become, how the kids say, important.
[03:10]
Kevin Duda
Oh, really?
[03:12]
Matt Kauflick
You bought a table at a thing I did. That's important.
[03:14]
Kevin Duda
I sure did. On credit.
[03:17]
Matt Kauflick
I got. I got to have a free dinner next to Nicky M. James because you bought a table.
[03:23]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[03:24]
Matt Kauflick
And you said, who do I know who can show up to this thing day of because they've got nothing going on and is pretty enough that it's okay.
[03:33]
Kevin Duda
That's right. You know who didn't buy a table? Nikki M. James.
[03:36]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Nicki M. James doesn't have to.
[03:38]
Kevin Duda
Oh, she doesn't?
[03:39]
Matt Kauflick
No. She was like, I assisted Michael.
[03:41]
Kevin Duda
She was everyone's vip.
[03:42]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, she's everyone's vip. When she gave her speech, she's like, I was his ad for once on this island. I was like, you know you didn't have to do that, right?
[03:49]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[03:50]
Matt Kauflick
You're Nikki Mps.
[03:51]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[03:53]
Matt Kauflick
There are some people in this world that I'm like, you know who you are, right? Must I tell you?
[03:57]
Kevin Duda
Why are you boiling it down to that credit?
[03:59]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. And on that note, let me tell you who you are. This is Kevin Duda Ayo. Hi, Kevin.
[04:06]
Kevin Duda
Hi, pod.
[04:08]
Matt Kauflick
Welcome back. It's been a minute.
[04:09]
Kevin Duda
I know. It has been a minute since our. Since our first and last disastrous take when I showed up completely unprepared and was like, I'll wing it. And you were like, and what kind of research did you do? And I was like, I don't know.
[04:21]
Matt Kauflick
If I said research.
[04:22]
Kevin Duda
You didn't.
[04:22]
Matt Kauflick
It was. It was what? You were more what's her face? I think her name.
[04:26]
Kevin Duda
Dumb.
[04:27]
Matt Kauflick
No. Is Tammy her name? The girl in Drop Dead Gorgeous who misunderstood the assignment. That's what it was.
[04:33]
Kevin Duda
That's exactly what I was.
[04:34]
Matt Kauflick
You just came on the pod. You're like, oh, I kind of misunderstood the assignment, but it's fine.
[04:40]
Kevin Duda
You're like, what do you like, how long you've been had. Had this obsession. I was like, this morning when I.
[04:46]
Matt Kauflick
When I thought of it. Yeah, you don't need to listen to that.
[04:50]
Kevin Duda
And crickets.
[04:51]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly that. Let's look at it this way. Your first episode of Broadway Breakdown is like the first season of the Office slash Parks and Rec. And this is going to be your season 2, 3, 4, 5.
[05:02]
Kevin Duda
Yay.
[05:03]
Matt Kauflick
Because now the pod has gone through a giant transformation since you were last on it.
[05:07]
Kevin Duda
Yes, correct.
[05:08]
Matt Kauflick
I got rid of that dead weight. Otherwise known as John Miscavige. Good riddance to gay rubbish, I say. And since cutting out all the people who suck for my life, including my own family, I've since taken off, and I've now become known as a famous ish Broadway person. I love it.
[05:28]
Kevin Duda
I love that I know you. I love watching your. Your journey. And congratulations. I love it. I'm very impressed.
[05:34]
Matt Kauflick
Wait, was that a serious thing?
[05:35]
Kevin Duda
It was. It was only because when you asked me to do this, I was like, I don't know if I'm up for the task. A, I screwed it up so much. So hardcore on the first time. And second, I was like, you're. You have really amazing people on who I had on.
[05:48]
Matt Kauflick
That's amazing.
[05:51]
Kevin Duda
I mean. Noted. But also, that's what I'm supposed to say, I guess.
[05:54]
Matt Kauflick
I know. I. I've become a lot more strict about who I bring on now. I pretty much narrowed it down to I need to know you. I need to know that we're going to get along quite nicely.
[06:02]
Kevin Duda
Right. Right.
[06:03]
Matt Kauflick
But no, I. I don't befriend dummies.
[06:07]
Kevin Duda
No, I know. Yeah, I know. I learned stuff from your podcast.
[06:10]
Matt Kauflick
And. But you're also not a dummy. You. You found a way to befriend Eartha Kitt. You found a way to be on Broadway multiple times. And then you looked around and you said, the life of an actor kind of gobbles cock. Unless you're Audra McDonald. And you said, so I think I'll pivot.
[06:28]
Kevin Duda
I think I'm gonna go away from this.
[06:30]
Matt Kauflick
I think I'm gonna go do more cool things.
[06:32]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[06:32]
Matt Kauflick
So that way, actors come to me.
[06:34]
Kevin Duda
It's true.
[06:35]
Matt Kauflick
And you did it kind of seamlessly. Oh, no, you did.
[06:38]
Kevin Duda
Well, I mean, the seamless part, to be honest with you, was when I was like, how do I not lose a salary and not just drop out of a show?
[06:46]
Matt Kauflick
You see, I didn't figure that part out when I started this podcast. That's where I'm struggling.
[06:50]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[06:51]
Matt Kauflick
But listen, not since Charlie Chaplin.
[06:54]
Kevin Duda
Good segue.
[06:56]
Matt Kauflick
Thank you.
[06:56]
Kevin Duda
Very good segue. I won't also mention that we have bread and wine.
[07:00]
Matt Kauflick
We do.
[07:00]
Kevin Duda
Very, very Vatican. Very Italian.
[07:03]
Matt Kauflick
Very, very demure. Yeah. For my. For my Misophonia guest. Misophonia guests, listeners, I should say apologies for this episode, this is a return of the mat eating on Mike. But we're going to try to be very mindful and very demure about it. But Kevin Duda, what fucking show are we talking about today?
[07:23]
Kevin Duda
We are talking about not eight, not eight and a half. We're talking about Nueve Nine.
[07:31]
Matt Kauflick
Nine, the musical. Yes. Now, this was selected out of the bowl. Out of Sally Bowl.
[07:36]
Kevin Duda
Love it.
[07:37]
Matt Kauflick
And I did ask you to do this one. This was not something you requested, but this was something that I remembered from a long time ago. You did that. This was one of, if not your favorite musical?
[07:46]
Kevin Duda
Yes, correct.
[07:47]
Matt Kauflick
Is it your favorite it?
[07:49]
Kevin Duda
Well, so, interestingly enough, I will say that, you know, I have these lists of like, oh, my God, I love that song. Oh, my God, I love that musical. That's probably in my top five.
[07:58]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[07:58]
Kevin Duda
Nine was always sort of hovering around number one until. Well, not until. This is not like a definitive. But like, when we revisited it together. Yes. You know, like when we were, like, looking at it and I was like, oh, maybe it's not. Maybe it holds a different place in my. In my. My world of what I love as opposed to. I think this is also the best.
[08:20]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, yeah. I mean, I never got the vibe from you that it was the best musical. I got the vibe that it was your favorite.
[08:25]
Kevin Duda
It was my favorite.
[08:26]
Matt Kauflick
Correct? Like, correct.
[08:27]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[08:27]
Matt Kauflick
Carousel, I don't think is the best musical. It has its bumps. There are things that I would trim out of it if I had my hands on it.
[08:33]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[08:33]
Matt Kauflick
But it is my favorite.
[08:34]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[08:35]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Nine is. I always knew the Nine was. Yeah. Your favorite, if not. Or like one of the top three for multiple reasons. Yes. And we'll get into all of it.
[08:42]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[08:42]
Matt Kauflick
So let's start with how did this show enter your chat?
[08:46]
Kevin Duda
So nine became part of. I didn't know. I didn't know more Yeston. I don't think I knew. You know, I knew all the. All the community theater basics. Right. The hello Dog. The Jerry Herman's. The what? The Stephen Sondheim's. The Stephen Schwartz is. But Maury Yeston, when I became a freshman, when I got into the Fresh, the program at Hart Hart School of Music, University of Hartford, this was the big show they did in the spring. And so the way Hart worked was everyone, sophomore, junior, senior, got to do the show. Freshman always never performed. You took a year off. And I really actually believe that this is still a great gift that I was given by that school. Others, I was not given so readily. But the.
[09:32]
Matt Kauflick
The.
[09:32]
Kevin Duda
The freshman year you don't perform it all. So that basically you on. You untrained yourself from all bad habits. I loved that. I thought that was a really good thing. Anyways, nine was the. The big show in the. In the spring, so I didn't do it. But I watched all these incredible upperclassmen that I was like, you know, I was just coming into the program and I didn't know how to do anything. So I was. I really was learning. I was learning everything from scratch. I had a decent voice, didn't know anything else about anything, didn't know the business or anything. So watching them all navigate this show, A, made me fall in love with the business itself, but B, also made me fall in love with this show and the score and the characters and the way it was put together.
[10:12]
Matt Kauflick
And so did you then see the revival from Roundabout in 2003?
[10:17]
Kevin Duda
I did. I did see that because. Because I became friends with Eartha Kitty on the road with Cinderella, and she replaced Cheetah. So I saw. I actually saw the original with Antonio and that full cast and Cheetah, and then I went back because Eartha, I. Very rarely. This is something that you probably don't know about me. I very rarely see a show a second time. I only. I find it to be like. Only if it's notable will I go back and see it, like, for a reason that I need to go see it.
[10:47]
Matt Kauflick
So, yeah. I'm similar. I've talked about this on the POD as well. I have seen quite a few shows multiple times. Not because I'm in love with them.
[10:56]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[10:57]
Matt Kauflick
More often than not, it is because I have a friend.
[11:00]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[11:01]
Matt Kauflick
Who got cast in it.
[11:02]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[11:02]
Matt Kauflick
And now I gotta go see the damn thing.
[11:04]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[11:05]
Matt Kauflick
Lauren, Nicole Chapman is. Who will be on an episode of this shortly enough. And we'll talk about. Watch. No, I'll talk about that on her episode about. She's the reason I saw Kinky Boots four times. And.
[11:15]
Kevin Duda
Lord, yes.
[11:17]
Matt Kauflick
And I was very mid on it the first time. Right.
[11:20]
Kevin Duda
I don't mean because it's a bad show. I just mean, like, that would be treacherous for me.
[11:23]
Matt Kauflick
Okay. Okay. Actually, I'll put it this way. So I. My other good friend, Caitlin Frank, I saw two revivals that she did on Broadway four times. Because I saw it when I saw My Fair lady and Funny Girl when they opened. And then I saw them a second time when there was a notable replacement Funny Girl. It was when Beanie left and Julie took over, and a friend of mine was like, we must see Julie. Everyone is Speaking of the Julie.
[11:47]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[11:47]
Matt Kauflick
And then My Fair lady was when Benanti went in.
[11:49]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[11:50]
Matt Kauflick
Third time I saw Funny Girl was because Leah went in. But then My Fair lady saw it a third time because Caitlin was making her Broadway debut in that ensemble.
[11:57]
Kevin Duda
All good reasons to see it multiple times.
[11:59]
Matt Kauflick
So I went to go see it again, and best friend Sarah was like, but Benanti wasn't in. It was. It was. What's her faith? Kirsten Anderson, who actually was the best Eliza of all the three I saw Fun Fact. And so she's like, can we go back and see Benanti? So we saw My Fair lady again to see Benanti for me a second time. And then Funny Girl. Caitlin went into Funny Girl halfway through the run with Leah. So I saw Funny Girl a fourth time. There are a couple of shows I saw multiple times because I just love those shows so goddamn much.
[12:27]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[12:27]
Matt Kauflick
Fun Home was one. Okay.
[12:29]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah.
[12:30]
Matt Kauflick
The revival of South Pacific was one. Revival of Color Purple was one also because Heather Headley went in and was like, I must go see the Talon Alien act. But, yeah, I didn't get to see that revival of Nine at all. I was. I was too uncultured at the age of 13 to know that show at all.
[12:48]
Kevin Duda
How dare you drop that age?
[12:50]
Matt Kauflick
I know. Sorry. I'm very, very young. I'm just too big.
[12:55]
Kevin Duda
I can't believe I served you wine on this podcast.
[12:57]
Matt Kauflick
Well, I'm not 13 anymore. 13.
[13:00]
Kevin Duda
Okay, sorry. Sorry.
[13:03]
Matt Kauflick
We were doing so well.
[13:04]
Kevin Duda
I know we were. I know we were.
[13:06]
Matt Kauflick
I was. I was so turned on. And now I am straight. No, I remember the advertisement for it when they announced the cast, and it was like a full page in the Times when they were in rehearsals. And that was all very exciting. And for some reason, no one in my family was like, oh, we should go see this. We should take Matt to see this. I don't think anyone in my family who saw the original cared for it all that much. So they weren't exactly excited about this revival.
[13:31]
Kevin Duda
Well, it was also weird because Roundabout was producing at the O'Neill Theater.
[13:34]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[13:35]
Kevin Duda
I actually never even. That's the first time I was saying that out loud that I realized that Roundabout was producing at a different theater. That's sort of strange for them.
[13:42]
Matt Kauflick
They. Yeah, they very rarely put things on in separate theaters, and I think that was because they only had. They had two home bases.
[13:49]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[13:50]
Matt Kauflick
And it was Studio 54, where cabaret either was about to close or hadn't closed just yet.
[13:57]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[13:57]
Matt Kauflick
And then it was at that time American Airlines, which I think at that point, like, they had only done a musical once in there. Everything else was plays.
[14:05]
Kevin Duda
That sounds right.
[14:05]
Matt Kauflick
So a nine. Once they got Antonio, they're like, we should. We can sell a thousand seat theater.
[14:10]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[14:10]
Matt Kauflick
So, yeah, they got the Eugene O'Neill. I think that might be the only time since then that they've done that, that they've produced in a commercial house.
[14:16]
Kevin Duda
That sounds right. Unless a transfer. Unless they've transferred.
[14:18]
Matt Kauflick
Well, they've done that for sure.
[14:20]
Kevin Duda
Right? Yeah.
[14:20]
Matt Kauflick
Like she loves me in 1776. Those all transferred from the Criterion, whatever it's called. Yeah. But I remember all that happening. I remember the Tony performance. I remember when all the replacements went in. And then I. Because I'm a Tony boy, I love the Tonys.
[14:34]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[14:34]
Matt Kauflick
They don't matter, but they're the closest thing I get to football.
[14:37]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[14:38]
Matt Kauflick
So I rem. Remember, all the money was on Antonio winning.
[14:42]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[14:43]
Matt Kauflick
And Harvey won.
[14:44]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[14:44]
Matt Kauflick
Yep.
[14:45]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[14:46]
Matt Kauflick
And it was also kind of like a battle royale between Gypsy and Nine for Revival. No. Everyone was like, I think Gypsy's gonna win because, like, it's technically the better musical, but, like, I don't know. And then Nine just kind of pulled through in the end. And then I didn't get to know the show itself until the following summer of 2004, because my friend Lucas. Broadway producer Lucas McMahon. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
[15:08]
Kevin Duda
Hey, Lucas.
[15:09]
Matt Kauflick
Hey, Lucas. He came to camp that summer with the cast album of Nine. He had seen it.
[15:15]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[15:15]
Matt Kauflick
And was. I remember he was playing the album for me and telling me what had happened on stage. He was describing Jane's. He was describing Jane's call from the Vatican to me. And I was like, that all sounds amazing. And then as it happened at Everyone Take a Shot stage, Romantic Performing Arts center, that summer, they did Nine and the director at Stage Door. The director supreme at the time. I was there. Jeff Murphy. Loved Jeff. He's a sweetheart. But he was famous for, like, not really doing his own stagings. He would watch the originals and take copious notes and then just do that. Because, like, at the end of the day, you don't go to Stage Door to be like, I want to show everyone that I'm a genius. You're putting on a show in two and a half weeks with a bunch of teenagers who don't have the mental capacity to understand these shows.
[16:00]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[16:00]
Matt Kauflick
So he was like, yeah, we're just going to do the closest thing we can to the Tommy Tune original. And that production had Skylar Astin as Guido. Shana Taub was Lily in the Fleur. Oh, my God. Yep. TV actor Brian Muller was Young Guido.
[16:15]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[16:16]
Matt Kauflick
I don't know. Nobody else in that cast went on to be like Broadway, but at the time, for us, it was, like, stacked upon stacked. Like, all the girls in it were like. The girl who had played Evita the summer before was playing Guido's mom. The. The girl who would be Sally Bowles the following summer was Carla, the girl who played Vera Charles in Mame. And then also some other, like, really big role, maybe Dorothy Brock. She played Louisa. And the Joanna. Sorry, the Joanna. And Cosette from the year before was playing Claudia. So that was the show.
[16:50]
Kevin Duda
We were like, embarrassment of riches.
[16:52]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Like, basically, if you were in the ensemble of that production, it was considered like, I made it.
[16:57]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[16:57]
Matt Kauflick
And if you were the lead in any other show, you're like, why am I not the ninth girl from the left nine? It was.
[17:03]
Kevin Duda
It was that staged or cut of stories. They're so competitive.
[17:07]
Matt Kauflick
It's why I both, like, always apologize for telling stage door stories while I'm also like, no, I shouldn't, because they're amazing.
[17:13]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[17:14]
Matt Kauflick
I love it so much.
[17:15]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[17:15]
Matt Kauflick
They're the greatest things ever. But, yeah, I remember that production. It blew my mind. I still have the DVD of it because it was so impressive to me. And then I just sort of was in and out on that show forever. And then the movie came out and.
[17:27]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah, the movie.
[17:29]
Matt Kauflick
We'll talk about the movie because you and I have thoughts and you told me a story about you seeing a screening of the movie.
[17:35]
Kevin Duda
I did.
[17:36]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's. Honestly, Kevin, that story is one of the biggest balls stories I've ever heard. It's the only thing about you I find sexy.
[17:46]
Kevin Duda
Oh, good. Thank you so much.
[17:47]
Matt Kauflick
Thank you. Well, that and the fact that you have a. That you're married or have a partner, whatever it is, I don't know what gays do.
[17:54]
Kevin Duda
Same thing.
[17:54]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. These days, the fact that you're taken, that's like the second sexiest thing about you.
[17:58]
Kevin Duda
The fact that we don't have a third is amazing to me.
[18:00]
Matt Kauflick
You've made it this long. Correct.
[18:02]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Yes.
[18:03]
Matt Kauflick
Well, I think because you two understand that in gay world. So, like, in straight world, openness is actually the final nail in the coffin. In gay world, openness is totally fine. It's having a third. That's the nail in the coffin.
[18:16]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Exactly. Exactly.
[18:18]
Matt Kauflick
Y'all don't even know the number of Broadway couples that almost died because they dare to have a third.
[18:23]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, well, we shouldn't talk about them here.
[18:25]
Matt Kauflick
We're not talking about them. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. I'm just saying some that might have broken up recently because there were unintentional thirds. It's fine. It's fine. We're not saying names.
[18:34]
Kevin Duda
Did you say it's stage door?
[18:35]
Matt Kauflick
I'm drinking stage door mana. Yeah, but. So speaking of infidelity, nine. Yeah. No, so that was my whole introduction. Introduction to it. And then they actually. They did it at Emerson. They did it my final. Not my final. They did my junior at Emerson.
[18:48]
Kevin Duda
@ the Majestic?
[18:49]
Matt Kauflick
No, at. It was the Green Theater, which is a 200 seat black box theater. Because at Emerson there's a musical in the fall and a musical in the spring. And the spring musical was always in either the Majestic or my junior year, the Paramount, which is where we did man of La Mancha. We christened the Paramount. Thank you. But I was telling this after we came out of the library yesterday, that production of Nine at Emerson is like the bane of my existence.
[19:17]
Kevin Duda
Oh, right.
[19:18]
Matt Kauflick
It was a good production. They did a fabulous job. What pissed me the fuck off. Kevin's heard this, but you guys haven't. I may or may not have directed Carousel my junior year of college. I don't know what I was thinking. Emerson College hates students, and therefore they hate student production. They will undermine you left and right. And when they're not undermining you, they are being dickless fucks who don't know their ass from a stop sign.
[19:42]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I think that's every BFA musical theater program, to be honest.
[19:45]
Matt Kauflick
But to fully forget to. To request the rights for Rodgers and Hammerstein.
[19:51]
Kevin Duda
Oh, dear.
[19:52]
Matt Kauflick
And not tell your students, oh, dear. And when the students keep asking you, like, hey, when are we getting those scripts? Like, oh, yeah, we'll get to it. And they never fully submitted. And Robertson Hammerstein organization sent us, almost sent us the cease to desist. And we had to call them be like, we're 20 year olds trying to make something happen. We're so sorry that the adults failed us. Like, here's what we're trying to do. Can we please. Like, we'll send you everything.
[20:12]
Kevin Duda
And they were like, totally fine by.
[20:13]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, they were. They were like. They were like, oh, you go to Emerson. We're so sorry. Like, here you go. So we made it work. But that production of Nine, we had a guest director and he was all. He was all fancy because he had worked with some Broadway people, nice enough guy, I'm sure they cast it. And they cast half of the women for my production of Carousel course. Like my full on leads were in the off stage singing choir for this Black box production of nine. And the department was like, this is Nine is more important for these girls because they'll learn how to be in a professional room. And I'm like, they're gonna be off stage singing la la la's. I'm giving them chance to do scene work. I'm not saying I'm as good as blank as a director. I'm just saying what's better experience for them for an education? Doing the bench scene or singing la la la la la.
[21:05]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[21:07]
Matt Kauflick
And ultimately the director and I sat down and I said, okay, let's figure this out. I don't, I don't ask me to recast my whole show. I can't do it. I don't have the time and I am so thin.
[21:17]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[21:20]
Matt Kauflick
And he said, and he said, sure.
[21:22]
Kevin Duda
Oh, it was a he.
[21:23]
Matt Kauflick
It was a he.
[21:24]
Kevin Duda
Just kidding.
[21:24]
Matt Kauflick
I know a woman would never undermine me that way. Women support other women. Unless you've seen the substance, which, oh, I intend to talk about the substance on this episode because I just watched it last night and my God, do I have thoughts. But. So he and I have this conversation. I'm like, okay, you don't. These girls aren't in any of your staging. And he's like, well, they're gonna be the Grand Canal number. I'm like, okay, that's 10 minutes in Act 2, right? 15 if you're being indulgent.
[21:51]
Kevin Duda
Correct. And also it's Grand Canal.
[21:53]
Matt Kauflick
It's also the fucking Grand Canal. Like, what you're telling me is that they're gonna be holding fake booms and fake stage lights, otherwise they' off stage singing Kyrie Leison or handing off a gondolier.
[22:03]
Kevin Duda
Stick to the, to the, to the, to the girls in the back who are gondoliers, Girl.
[22:08]
Matt Kauflick
This wasn't the Majestic. This was the black box.
[22:10]
Kevin Duda
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.
[22:11]
Matt Kauflick
Gondoliers. It's all about imagination in the black box. We like figured out a schedule and I guarantee I shit you not, like two days later, he fully just disregarded the schedule and did his own thing. So there would be days when I was supposed to rehearse my Julie Jordan and my Billy Bigelow for the bench scene. And my Julie Jordan was called to be at rehearsal where she would text me and be like, I've we've been here for four hours and they haven't done nothing. I've done nothing, of course. And so I had to be Julie Jordan opposite Broadway's Max Sangerman. And luckily he won an award for his performance. Thank you. And I was a stunning Julie in our rehearsals. But I was like, sophie should be here, right? She's. She's sitting in studio C looking through her textbook to do her homework while she waits to sing La la la's and didn't even get to do that. That's what professional rehearsals rooms are like.
[23:02]
Kevin Duda
That's welcome to college production, though, where people fight for mediocrity.
[23:06]
Matt Kauflick
Well, I know I fought for amazingness, not you.
[23:09]
Kevin Duda
I'm just saying the rest.
[23:10]
Matt Kauflick
I'm just saying I want it to be known. Of course. And you. And the reason I know my production was good, because the faculty all saw it and said to me, I can't believe you were able to pull that off with what you went through. And I mean. You mean what you put me through, right?
[23:24]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[23:25]
Matt Kauflick
I didn't let them off the hook.
[23:26]
Kevin Duda
Jerks.
[23:26]
Matt Kauflick
I was like, I appreciate being skin and bones right now due to stress. I would have loved to have slept once throughout the month of November.
[23:34]
Kevin Duda
Bastards.
[23:35]
Matt Kauflick
Bastards. I was so thin then my mother, friend of the pod, Danny Tickton Coppola, came to see the show. And the next day I got breakfast with her and my sister. And I got to the table and there was a stack of pancakes there. And I said, oh, who's this for? She said, I order that. That's for you. You need to eat.
[23:50]
Kevin Duda
Oh, wow.
[23:51]
Matt Kauflick
And as we all know, my mother does not pull punches. She'll tell me when I'm doing a bad job acting. I famously said this after my live stream reading the next day. She was like, play is great. Here are all my notes on your performance.
[24:03]
Kevin Duda
Oh, Lord. Oh, that's right. I do remember that.
[24:05]
Matt Kauflick
Yes, yes, yes. So. And she was like, you're too thin. I was like, oh, I'm too thin.
[24:08]
Kevin Duda
That's so funny, because my mom came to Beautiful and she was like, I thought you wore the fat suit in Mormon.
[24:14]
Matt Kauflick
My God.
[24:15]
Kevin Duda
And I was like, mom, there is no fat suit in Beautiful. And she was like, oh, yep, yep.
[24:21]
Matt Kauflick
Must have been nice to been on Broadway though.
[24:24]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, Well, I was like, well, listen, I don't have to do all those marches in Mormon anymore. So I. I deserve to get a little. I deserve to get the freshman 15 over at beautiful.
[24:32]
Matt Kauflick
I was gonna say you didn't do any movement in Beautiful. You came out and crew.
[24:35]
Kevin Duda
Correct? Yeah, correct. I sung backstage while the rest of the ensemble went through the locomotion.
[24:41]
Matt Kauflick
Was Neel Sadeka a low role for you? Was that like a low vocal track for you?
[24:46]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, but it didn't matter because I had. I had love and feeling.
[24:51]
Matt Kauflick
Okay.
[24:51]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. I mean, it was sort of like. I mean, that was like a bit. I called that a bit. That wasn't. You know.
[24:55]
Matt Kauflick
You were a bit stress.
[24:56]
Kevin Duda
I was a bit stress, yeah.
[24:57]
Matt Kauflick
Nine is filled with bitstresses.
[24:58]
Kevin Duda
Nine must be filled with bitstresses.
[25:00]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. Listen, we've done a lot of pussy footing and. And for foreplay.
[25:07]
Kevin Duda
Let's dive in.
[25:08]
Matt Kauflick
Well, let's dive in.
[25:09]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[25:10]
Matt Kauflick
After this break. Billy, I'd beg to differ with you.
[25:12]
Kevin Duda
How do you mean? You're the top.
[25:13]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[25:15]
Kevin Duda
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astag.
[25:25]
Matt Kauflick
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[26:53]
Kevin Duda
Terms apply.
[26:56]
Matt Kauflick
And we're back.
[26:57]
Kevin Duda
Oh.
[26:58]
Matt Kauflick
So, Kevin, for the uncultured Fuchs, what is nine?
[27:01]
Kevin Duda
About nine is a musical by Maury Yeston and Arthur Kopit with a book earlier by, I think, Mario Fratti. Right. Is that correct?
[27:11]
Matt Kauflick
That is correct.
[27:13]
Kevin Duda
It is a take on Fellini's Eight and a Half, which is a movie, a black and white movie about a director who's having a crisis because he is a turning 40, but also has a creative. Actually, I don't know if did an eight and a half deal with him being 40 or just having a cultural crisis.
[27:32]
Matt Kauflick
I think both.
[27:33]
Kevin Duda
Both. So a creative crisis about not being able to come up with it with a vision for his next movie. So he sort of has this breakdown in life and in work.
[27:43]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[27:44]
Kevin Duda
All at once.
[27:45]
Matt Kauflick
The movie is also, like, about selling out because he's doing this, like, weird sci fi epic.
[27:50]
Kevin Duda
The Fellini.
[27:50]
Matt Kauflick
The Fellini, yeah.
[27:51]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Right, right.
[27:52]
Matt Kauflick
He's having. He's doing this weird sci fi epic and like, everyone in his life is kind of flowing in and out. His mistress shows up. Sorry. He brings his mistress to like, basically relieve him.
[28:02]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[28:02]
Matt Kauflick
Then brings in his wife and they're sort of on the outs. And he has flashbacks to his past.
[28:07]
Kevin Duda
And he also hires the critic to be his own critic. And he has more. He has sort of more agency in Eight and a Half than Guido has in Nine.
[28:15]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. But he also is far. He's more strategic and far colder in the movie than I would say he is in the show. In the show, he is really drowning much more than he is in the movie.
[28:25]
Kevin Duda
Well, because we need to care about our leading people, you know, we need to care about.
[28:28]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Or like, choose to follow them and give them a reason to say. I would argue the Guido of Eight and a Half is not a Guido that sings. The Guido in 9 is a Guido who sings.
[28:36]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Agreed. Agreed.
[28:37]
Matt Kauflick
Because the Guido and Eight and a Half is like a little too comatose.
[28:39]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[28:40]
Matt Kauflick
To say.
[28:40]
Kevin Duda
Right. He's already hit the end.
[28:42]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[28:42]
Kevin Duda
Guido is going through it in Nine.
[28:44]
Matt Kauflick
The movie is called Eight and a Half because it is Fellini's, technically speaking, his ninth film. But one of them was one he either co directed or was a short film, something like that.
[28:55]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[28:55]
Matt Kauflick
So he. He couldn't think of a title. So he was like, it's my Eight and a Half film.
[28:58]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[28:59]
Matt Kauflick
And Yeston had been working on this musical adaptation since 1973. And both as a way to, like, in case there were rights issues. Because he didn't have the rights.
[29:09]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[29:09]
Matt Kauflick
He just kept writing it.
[29:10]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[29:11]
Matt Kauflick
Then he. So in case there were rights issues. But also he was like, I don't know. It was his. You know, he did eight and a half movies. This is sort of another half. It's nine. And also, as it turns out, nine rhymes a lot more things than eight and a half.
[29:21]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Very true. Also, he. If I remember correctly, he sort of wrote it in this vacuum. Not a vacuum, but in sort of like a space where he was like, no one will ever do this. This is for. Was it the. The BMI workshop?
[29:33]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, he. He was a professor of music at Yale.
[29:36]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[29:37]
Matt Kauflick
And in 1973 or 72, he applied for the BMI workshop. Got in.
[29:43]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[29:44]
Matt Kauflick
And he was there with Ed Cleveland and Howard Ashman.
[29:47]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[29:47]
Matt Kauflick
And. Yeah. That was basically like his whole project is in Time. At your time there.
[29:51]
Kevin Duda
Right. I never thought it was going to be seen. Sort of worked on it as like a passion project.
[29:56]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Well, also because, like, I don't know exactly what his career was as a composer during the 70s, because his professorship was like, his thing.
[30:03]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[30:04]
Matt Kauflick
He had composed a couple of, like, concertos and, like, cello stuff. Yeah. He had a lot of classical music get published, but he wasn't really doing anything else musical theater wise.
[30:14]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[30:16]
Matt Kauflick
The turning point for nine happened in 1979, where they did it at the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center.
[30:24]
Kevin Duda
Right up in Connecticut.
[30:25]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. And he did. He. It was him and Mario and then Howard Ashman, I think, was their, like, supplemental director.
[30:33]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[30:33]
Matt Kauflick
Because there I watched a. A video, an interview with the two of them on, like, the American Theater wing used to have that, like, cable access show.
[30:41]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Yep.
[30:43]
Matt Kauflick
Yep. They had one with Audra and Charlatan was. And Lana McKee back in 94. But Howard and Maury were on it because Nine had just won the Tony and Little Shop had just opened off Broadway at the Orpheum.
[30:56]
Kevin Duda
Wow.
[30:57]
Matt Kauflick
And yeah, it was that. It was that summer.
[30:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[30:59]
Matt Kauflick
And they were saying, like, they were talking and I don't even know if the host knew this, but Howard and Mori were like, yeah, like, we know each other from bmi and like, we worked on Nine together, like, four years ago. And Howard Ashman was the one that gave Maury. Yes. In the idea for My Husband Makes Movies.
[31:15]
Kevin Duda
Oh.
[31:16]
Matt Kauflick
He's like, yeah. He's like, you don't have a song for the wife. Like, she needs a song. And it should be like, how her whole existence is about her husband and his whole existence is making movies.
[31:26]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right.
[31:26]
Matt Kauflick
And that's what the song. The more you wrote.
[31:28]
Kevin Duda
That's crazy. I did not know that.
[31:30]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. The whole, like, how the Whole show came together. And I will talk about this as we go in and out of it because we'll also, like, we're gonna welcome to the pod, everybody. What we do is we sort of talk about the material as we also talk about the origins as well as the legacy and all that other stuff. But 9 really is it started as one artist's idea and then over time just became other people who sort of came in and out of the revolving door of collaborators offering pieces of artistic advice, some of which was kept, some of which wasn't, but, like, it's not as if the whole thing was Maury's brainchild and came out in one spout. Right, right, of course. Because the whole idea of it, because in the movie there are a million characters, men and women and children, all that stuff.
[32:13]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[32:13]
Matt Kauflick
And it was. The musical, was that for a long time originally. Yeah.
[32:17]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Mixed gender.
[32:18]
Matt Kauflick
The producer was a man and all that stuff. And it wasn't until Tommy Toon came on board that it became all women and one man.
[32:25]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[32:25]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, right. And I don't even know how Tommy came to that conclusion. I think what Maury. I was watching an interview with Maury yesterday and he said, it's possible that because of how I was writing the score, Tommy heard it and he was more engulfed in the women's material because Maury said. He said, like, I don't think it's a coincidence that I started writing nine when things like Ms. Magazine came out on, like the women's library was like, in full effect. He's like, I was really thinking about the women's perspectives in this story, Right. So I was writing all these songs and that's what Tommy gravitated towards because Tommy is a gay man. And we as gay men are like, I love the women, we love women, we love their songs.
[33:07]
Kevin Duda
We like strong women also, like, you know, I have a. I have a feeling that as the development went and they were like, oh, well, there's the. There's the wife, there's the mother, there's the mistress, there's the. The muse, there's, you know, those, all those pieces, you start to think, well, it really is what all those women are to him. And the men have no place in that. There's no, there's nothing for them. Yeah, well, because the London. The London version did implement the men again, I believe.
[33:31]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[33:32]
Kevin Duda
After.
[33:32]
Matt Kauflick
After Broadway, the one that they did at. I don't know if it was Royal Edward hall. It was somewhere. It was they very large scale production.
[33:39]
Kevin Duda
Palladium no, no, but something like that.
[33:41]
Matt Kauflick
Where Jonathan Price was the Guido.
[33:43]
Kevin Duda
Yes, yes.
[33:43]
Matt Kauflick
And they. They incorporated men again. But the first genuine, like, West End production of Nine was a duplicate, was. It was the Donmar production.
[33:52]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[33:53]
Matt Kauflick
And that one went back to all women because that was nominated for Best Musical and did not win. And that was. That Donmar production was the origin of the revival. But it's not a. If you look at photos, it's very clearly not a transfer. It's like, very much a. We have $2 in a prayer and. And success with Cabaret. They went to. I'm assuming they went to David Laveau, who also gave them success with Anna Christie. And they're like, do you want to bring over that Nine? He's like, can I start from scratch?
[34:17]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, right.
[34:18]
Matt Kauflick
Like, yeah, totally.
[34:19]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[34:20]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, yeah. It's so fascinating. It's been a long time since I've seen the movie, but it's considered, like, one of the greatest pieces of cinema.
[34:28]
Kevin Duda
I read in preparation for this podcast that the Vatican has it in, like, its top 50 of the most important films before 19. Something. Something. I don't know.
[34:39]
Matt Kauflick
Probably 1970, maybe, or 1980.
[34:41]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah.
[34:42]
Matt Kauflick
Because the movie is, I think, 1960. 61.
[34:45]
Kevin Duda
Right. But filmed in black and white.
[34:46]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, I know, I know. Well, most Fellini is black and white. Yeah, he has a couple in color. But the thing about. And they talk. What's so fascinating about Nine is because Eight and a Half is one. That's not one of the first, but it is an evolution of the meta commentary. Because I would argue something like Wilder Sunset Boulevard is, like, really the first mainstream meta movie.
[35:12]
Kevin Duda
Interesting Of.
[35:13]
Matt Kauflick
Of talking about Hollywood and the silent era. And your leading lady is a former silent movie star.
[35:19]
Kevin Duda
Oh, sure, sure. Okay, I see.
[35:21]
Matt Kauflick
And it's where it's like. It's. You're like, you. You're talking about the thing, and you have people who had done the thing in real life pretending to do the thing in the movie.
[35:28]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[35:28]
Matt Kauflick
And so Eight and a Half is ultimately a commentary on Fellini, of both, like, his success, his failures, and what everyone in the world has said about him. And Nine leads into that even harder when they talk about the fans of Guido Contini films. And, like, I want to live in a Guido Contini film. Like, it's so glamorous. It's so beautiful. And then you have Stephanie Necropoulos who's like, you are light on plot. You are light on character development. Your movies are all style, no substance, correct.
[35:54]
Kevin Duda
And make no sense.
[35:55]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. It's like. It's like. I think she says a line of like, to. To watch a continuing film is like to experience a world. A world of like. It was like a world of delusions.
[36:03]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A world. Yeah. What is that?
[36:06]
Matt Kauflick
Like a world, like, free of substance or free of something.
[36:09]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[36:10]
Matt Kauflick
And it's. It's so. I love that they go even harder on that.
[36:14]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[36:14]
Matt Kauflick
Because it's true. Like, you watch. Because the thing about Fellini is that he really put Italy on the map in terms of international cinema. And he. Like, when you watch La Strada, not the Strada, you watch La Dolce Vita or you watch Eight and a Half or even Knights of Cabiria, there is a style about them that is very chic and, like, it started a whole trend that still exists to this day.
[36:41]
Kevin Duda
Right. Of. Of. Of exoticizing Italy. And it's. It's. It's its people and its landscapes.
[36:50]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's being curvy but tight.
[36:52]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[36:53]
Matt Kauflick
Wearing black, but, like, simple black. But it is so effective. Wearing sunglasses at night, of. Of the eyeliner and Cleopatra eye makeup.
[37:02]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[37:03]
Matt Kauflick
But so many of his movies are about miserable people, and people just, like, audiences forget about that. Like, La Dolce Vita is ultimately about the emptiness of fame in the Hollywood industry. You know, what's the actress here? It's Mastroianni, the one who's also leading Eight and a Half. And I don't know how you say his actual name, it's Maurizio. But he, you know, he's the lead in La Dolce Vita and an Eight and a Half. And both of them, he's, you know, the eyes for the audience. And in La Dolce Vita, he's this journalist who, like, gets to be around the rich and famous and the beautiful. And it's about how, like, ridiculous everybody is and how unhappy everybody is.
[37:47]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[37:47]
Matt Kauflick
But, like, when you look like Elkie.
[37:49]
Kevin Duda
Summer, how can you really believe that?
[37:52]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like. Or why. Why should you remember or care?
[37:56]
Kevin Duda
Marcello Mastroiani.
[37:58]
Matt Kauflick
There we are. There we are. There we are.
[38:00]
Kevin Duda
Mastroian.
[38:01]
Matt Kauflick
Which is also kind of, I feel like a trap that people fall into with Nine as a musical. Because in order. I think in order for Nine to succeed on stage, you need people with a flair for style. But if you are only focused on that, it is like, the most beautiful, coldest night of theater.
[38:20]
Kevin Duda
It's vacant of anything else going on.
[38:22]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly.
[38:22]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. I agree.
[38:23]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, I agree.
[38:24]
Kevin Duda
I mean, and the characters themselves are all. I mean, also, like, to Your point of living in a Fellini film, living in musical theater. I mean, there's never a better transition than, like, going from, like, a Fellini film to, like, Broadway musical, because it's the same sort of, like, made up environment. It's. It's sort of like, who wouldn't want to live in this musical? Who wouldn't want to live on stage? Who wouldn't want to live through, you know, this. This sort of, you know, this sort of place where everything, you know, that the end of the. Mostly at the end of the musical, everything's gonna be solved, you know, and why. Who wouldn't want to live in that. Live in that beautiful, you know, colorful world, Especially in. In. In the world of Guido, who every single person has their existence and has their. Their. Their what? They. How they serve him.
[39:08]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. You know, their place in his life, in his compartmentalization. Yeah, correct. I also think it's. In a musical, other people start to make a bit more sense when they sing. Their emotions become clearer. I say, this is like, I just had a very, very wonderful but, like, very heavy drink night last night with two people in my life who, like, we've all been through a whole time together. And as we were talking, we, like, we had a. We had all this wonderful laughter and chatter. And eventually the elephant in the room was like, there's a lot of baggage at this table. And it started because, like, I started, like, I just was absentmindedly wiping away tears from my face that I didn't realize I had.
[39:51]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[39:52]
Matt Kauflick
And my friend Josh was like, are you okay? I was like, I think we need to talk about all the things that we haven't talked about yet because my body is rejecting the joy that I'm feeling.
[40:00]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[40:00]
Matt Kauflick
And so we talked about all of it and, and, you know, a lot of good stuff, but also, like, so much confusion then new piece of information that made other things not make sense anymore. That then made like, I went home and even though I had talked about all the things I wanted to talk about, I was even sadder and, like, heavier. And I was like, this would have been so much better in song, where things were simpler and clearer.
[40:21]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[40:22]
Matt Kauflick
And everyone's emotions and the people were talking about and their emotions just like, it doesn't make them any less complex, but they make them more definable.
[40:30]
Kevin Duda
Sure, sure. Your emotional moments have fit into song, the song, the song categories of musical theater.
[40:40]
Matt Kauflick
1000%.
[40:40]
Kevin Duda
The I Want the makeup song or even just, like, charm song.
[40:45]
Matt Kauflick
Even just, like a simple lyric of. And Repetition. So, for example, my husband makes movies. Louise is saying how he needs me so. And he'll be the last to know it. And when Guido says that again at the end, you. We understand where he's emotionally at at that point. And it. We know it's the truth because it's hard to lie in a song.
[41:02]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Right, right.
[41:03]
Matt Kauflick
That's, you know, a character is telling the truth when they're singing. And so you, we as an audience, take it at face value.
[41:09]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Yeah.
[41:10]
Matt Kauflick
How can I take at face value what somebody says to me?
[41:12]
Kevin Duda
Right. Oh, Matthew.
[41:15]
Matt Kauflick
What?
[41:15]
Kevin Duda
Nothing.
[41:16]
Matt Kauflick
What did I do?
[41:17]
Kevin Duda
Just shovel. Get off the shovel. Deep.
[41:21]
Matt Kauflick
Shovel. Honey, I've got a right hand and some lube. What are we.
[41:25]
Kevin Duda
Oh, no.
[41:26]
Matt Kauflick
Speaking of looking like a lubed up fist. Hey, I said this on my story today. I would love. And this actually does go into nine. I know. I swear. This is supposed to. I. One of my goals before I die is to be caught on camera and. And be photographed as incredibly as Margaret Quaily. Is that how you say your last name is in the substance?
[41:50]
Kevin Duda
I have not seen the substance.
[41:52]
Matt Kauflick
Are you a horror guy?
[41:53]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, I would watch that. Yeah.
[41:54]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Then you'll be into it.
[41:55]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[41:56]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's body horror.
[41:58]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[41:58]
Matt Kauflick
Which I had to ask Itai. I was like, what do you mean by that? And he was like, well, it's just like grotesquery of the human body.
[42:04]
Kevin Duda
Oh.
[42:05]
Matt Kauflick
And I. It's. But it's so over the top and it's so grotesque that, like, it didn't bother me because it was like. Yeah. Oh, we have a close up of like a needle piercing through skin.
[42:15]
Kevin Duda
Oh, sure. Okay.
[42:16]
Matt Kauflick
But yeah, like the whole point of the movie is like, uncomfortable. Yeah. But Margaret Qualy is playing like the. The additional self of Demi Moore. Specifically, she is the younger, more perfect version of Demi Moore.
[42:35]
Kevin Duda
Oh.
[42:36]
Matt Kauflick
And Margot Quailey is a beautiful person. But that means that the movie's like, okay, we gotta photograph this girl. Like, the sun shines out of her eyeballs.
[42:42]
Kevin Duda
Got it.
[42:43]
Matt Kauflick
So she looks like a lubed up fist. These are the words that I said on Instagram. A lubed up fist covered in cancer curing eyeshadow and barely legal spandex.
[42:56]
Kevin Duda
Oh, no.
[42:57]
Matt Kauflick
She looks amazing. Amazing in the way that Fellini would photograph women in his movies. Who is the Swedish actress in La Dolce Vita? Is it Elkie Summers?
[43:10]
Kevin Duda
That sounds right. Should we look it up?
[43:12]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, I think it's like Elkie or Elka. This is why we have computers in our pockets. Adulte. Vita, it's the. It's the blonde woman in the water fountain, right?
[43:23]
Kevin Duda
It is Yvonne. Hold on.
[43:25]
Matt Kauflick
It's not Ivan. Sorry. The Internet is slow in here. But as we keep talking. But with nine.
[43:33]
Kevin Duda
That is Anita Ekberg.
[43:35]
Matt Kauflick
Yes, that's who it is. Anita Ekberg. Anita Ekberg or like, you know, you know who would actually be great in a Fellini film. And it's a shame she never did one in the 60s because that was like prime her for Fellini was. Ann Margaret is like.
[43:50]
Kevin Duda
I was gonna say Ann Margaret.
[43:51]
Matt Kauflick
That is the American who should have been in it, Correct?
[43:53]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Right. Because she had that heightened physical existence.
[43:57]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[43:57]
Kevin Duda
She had that sort of like devil may care beauty. She had that statuesque physical, like, like, like she looked like she. I mean, she was. What was Anne Margaret's heritage? She was. She was foreign born, wasn't she?
[44:10]
Matt Kauflick
Was she?
[44:11]
Kevin Duda
I think she was. I think she was her father, what they emigrated from. I feel like. I feel like it was like the. The Eastern European, probably. I think so.
[44:20]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, probably. But she. Yeah, she had that, you know, devil may, as you said, devil may care like attitude while also being so overtly sexual but not pornographic.
[44:31]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[44:32]
Matt Kauflick
And had a. We. Not to objectify, but like part of the thing about Ann Margaret was she had like that Italian physique, like boobs and butt and tiny waist.
[44:42]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[44:43]
Matt Kauflick
And also for a woman so stunning, had absolutely zero ego and. And what's the one looking for? She was. She wasn't precious about her looks. Like you see her in something like Tommy, where she is made to look a fool half the time.
[45:03]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[45:03]
Matt Kauflick
And goes for it.
[45:05]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That.
[45:06]
Matt Kauflick
That's a woman who's game.
[45:07]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, she. I mean, she for a long time, I think was, you know, sort of. She was, you know, she was such a star and would take whatever came her way, really. Like, she just wanted to be. She just wanted to be loved and she. She was. So the other thing about Margaret is she had like, she had. She had the United States. She was very much. She was much, very much for the troops. You know, she knew her duty as sort of. She knew her duty as a Hollywood star. Yeah, she was very aware of who she was and what she was doing. And like you said, like all of her movement, when she would do it, it did not come across as overtly sexual or, or. Or, you know, you know, trope. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't slutty. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't disgusting. I mean, which leads directly into Like Anita Morris.
[45:54]
Matt Kauflick
I was the Carla of it all.
[45:56]
Kevin Duda
The Carla. Right exact. She has in. In when we were watching the original, I was like. It was. I was stunned. I remember the body sleeve that Tommy Tune had in mind for Lena Morrison. When seeing it on her, I was like, oh, it is. It's so Playboy Bunny, but it's so. Also like her. She was. She actually. She resolved it for the audience. She didn't make it, like, about her tits or about her ass or. But she was an object of beauty for. For Guido and, you know, sort of like, filled that whole. Filled that whole stage with that Persona. And it never felt like when you first see her, I think the. We even heard the audience go, oh. Like, oh, my gosh.
[46:36]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[46:36]
Kevin Duda
You know, when she does that whole call from the Vatican and she's doing the splits, in the end, she's twirling her ankles and she looks like any other person would have made that trashy. She actually makes it sort of, like, so in touch. I mean, she was mime trained, so she knows her body so well. So when she does the roles and she does the splits and she does the, you know, legs wide open, it doesn't feel trampy. It feels vivacious. It feels like she's in touch with every single inch of her body.
[47:02]
Matt Kauflick
Who. I. Somebody talked about this about Marilyn Monroe. Someone who, like, knew her at the time said that Marilyn wasn't Marilyn. Never played sex on screen and not even in life.
[47:16]
Kevin Duda
Was that Debbie? Was that Debbie Reynolds? Did Debbie Reynolds say that about Marilyn? Maybe Someone.
[47:19]
Matt Kauflick
Someone.
[47:20]
Kevin Duda
It wasn't equally famous as her say it was.
[47:22]
Matt Kauflick
It was a woman who knew her.
[47:23]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[47:24]
Matt Kauflick
And they said Marilyn never played sex. Marilyn actually played a little girl all the time. It's just that Marilyn looked like Marilyn and therefore didn't need to. And also, like, that's what made her so vulnerable on screen, so made everyone fall in love with her. And I think with. As we pivot to Nine again and Carla. So I think this is a great way to get even deeper into the show, the character of Carla. And I don't want to talk about it too much because I want to get back to her, because ultimately, I think she is the best role in the show, and I have a lot to say about her.
[47:56]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[47:57]
Matt Kauflick
But she is Guido's mistress.
[47:59]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[48:00]
Matt Kauflick
And she's given far more grace in the musical than she is in Eight and a Half, I would argue.
[48:03]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[48:04]
Matt Kauflick
I would even say she's given a solid amount of grace in the movie adaptation of Nine.
[48:08]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[48:09]
Matt Kauflick
Which is A bad movie. But the way they treat Carla as played by Penelope Cruz, I'm like, oh, I think you got her right.
[48:17]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[48:17]
Matt Kauflick
Correct.
[48:18]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[48:18]
Matt Kauflick
Which is that Carla. And as Anita Morris plays her and Jane Krakowski plays her like she is a sexual woman. She loves sex. Nothing wrong with that. But she's also kind of a little girl, and that is ultimately what Anita Morris and even Jane. Jane Krakowski in Revival played was like.
[48:34]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[48:35]
Matt Kauflick
They dress her up to look like walking sex, but she plays it like she's a 15 year old one Direction fan.
[48:42]
Kevin Duda
Right. Well, that's also how Guido sees her in his barrage of women. Yeah, right. She's, she's the one who needs him, you know, like, like Luisa doesn't need him. He needs Luisa. His mother doesn't need him. She, she, she, she functioned to be. She functions as part of who he, like, who brought him up. You have, you know, you have Claudia, who does not need like, like, she's the only, I would argue the only character who needs him.
[49:09]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Carla has no perspective.
[49:11]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[49:11]
Matt Kauflick
She, Carla acts. She. Carla is the one who's the most Italian of all the women.
[49:16]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[49:16]
Matt Kauflick
Outside of Sarah, Gina, which is just like, like she acts off of instinct.
[49:20]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[49:21]
Matt Kauflick
And feeling.
[49:22]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[49:22]
Matt Kauflick
And. And heat.
[49:23]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[49:23]
Matt Kauflick
She's the one who has like all these suicide threats. Yes. And, and, and just is. I was, I was actually thinking about Call from the Vatican today as, as I was watching the revival at Lincoln center, because I felt it too when we were watching Anita, but I felt it especially with Jane, which is, you know, we're introduced to Carla early on. You know, the show opens with all these women speaking.
[49:48]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[49:48]
Matt Kauflick
They're who they are in Guido's life.
[49:51]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[49:51]
Matt Kauflick
And then, you know, we do the overture and we do not since Charlie Chaplin and Carla pops in for a second and all we know at this point is like, she's totally his mistress and she's got news to tell him and she's so fucking pumped.
[50:03]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[50:03]
Matt Kauflick
And then her first song is phone sex.
[50:06]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[50:06]
Matt Kauflick
And part of it is like, yeah, she's probably horny at her hotel room waiting for him. But also she knows the only way to get his attention to come over is to play the sex card.
[50:16]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[50:17]
Matt Kauflick
Even if she does enjoy it, like her calling him up and saying, guido, I really need to speak to you. Because I think it's important for our relationship. That's like the first way to get him to not show up.
[50:27]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Right.
[50:28]
Matt Kauflick
To be like, hey, can I ride you to death?
[50:31]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[50:31]
Matt Kauflick
That's.
[50:32]
Kevin Duda
That's how you get his attention.
[50:33]
Matt Kauflick
That's how you get Guido Cantina's attention.
[50:34]
Kevin Duda
Correct, correct.
[50:35]
Matt Kauflick
And. And.
[50:36]
Kevin Duda
And she's also tickled how much he hides her.
[50:40]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[50:40]
Kevin Duda
Right. Until she finds it a little hot. She finds a little hot. She's the secret. Until she's not. Which is then when she. She has the reckoning. But at the same time, she thinks being the secret is also enticing.
[50:50]
Matt Kauflick
Well, also because he's her secret. Because at. What we learn is they're both married. They're both married.
[50:55]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[50:56]
Matt Kauflick
The. The key is that she wants her husband. She wants to get out of her marriage, but she can't get the divorce.
[51:02]
Kevin Duda
She can't get the divorce paper.
[51:03]
Matt Kauflick
She wants her husband to grant her a divorce.
[51:05]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[51:06]
Matt Kauflick
And she's like, if he can get me a divorce and Guido's wife can give him a divorce, like, then we are free to marry.
[51:11]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[51:12]
Matt Kauflick
And she genuinely believes it. We're the only. Like, the audience is watching it going.
[51:16]
Kevin Duda
Girl, that ain't gonna happen.
[51:19]
Matt Kauflick
Ain't gonna happen.
[51:20]
Kevin Duda
But also, can you imagine, like, I often do this in musicals, like, what would happen if she got her. Like, if. You know, like, we talk about, as actors, like, what our wants are and what our suit. You know, like our super. You know, you're super objective. All those things. What if Carla got what she wanted? It would be the most boring musical ever because all they would be doing is having sex in a bed. Like, he'd be walking away, she'd be wanting to come back. You know what I mean? Like, her only goal is to get him to. In bed. I don't think she. I don't think she has a life plan for them outside of, like, having fun. Sure. But she doesn't respect that. The reason she. The reason she has attracted him is because, A, he's unattainable. B, she's unattainable. And see, he has this whole life that she would constantly just fight to have him. She would just be. Her whole want is to, like, fight him to have him to herself, which she never would, so she'd never be happy.
[52:09]
Matt Kauflick
And also, it's that they are sexually compatible and that's it.
[52:14]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right.
[52:15]
Matt Kauflick
Like, they don't.
[52:15]
Kevin Duda
They don't talk about anything up. Right.
[52:17]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, they don't.
[52:18]
Kevin Duda
The same time next year where act three is, where they're. Where one of them has, you know, one of them. One of the partners has, like, dies or something. Like what? I can't remember. But they get into, like, depth. There's no Depth in their relationship.
[52:28]
Matt Kauflick
No, this is not Frankie and John. After they fuck, they realize, oh, they actually could connect as human beings.
[52:33]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[52:34]
Matt Kauflick
No, it's not that. Like, they. Everything that they say and do is either foreplay for the sex or to keep the boat afloat so they can have sex again.
[52:43]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[52:44]
Matt Kauflick
Whether. Whether they realize it or not. I think Guido's a little more aware of that dynamic than she is.
[52:49]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[52:50]
Matt Kauflick
So, yeah, like, if they were to get married, it would fall apart so quickly because he would want to have sex with her far less because she's so available.
[53:00]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[53:01]
Matt Kauflick
She stops being luxurious and exotic because she's just there every day. And in turn, she would probably devolve from who she is in this moment to something else. It's okay. Speaking of Ann Margaret, it is the Jack Nicholson Ann Margret marriage in carnal knowledge.
[53:20]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right.
[53:21]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I also love that, by the way, in that movie, Mike Nichols is like, hey, Anne, can you gain £20? And she does, and it's all in her tits. She's like, this is the fattest I've ever been. I'm like, you're still everybody's goal. Correct. Like, go flying fuck yourself. But, like, that. That relationship is awful and toxic because he only views her as a sex object. And the moment he locks it down, he's not interested.
[53:44]
Kevin Duda
He's not. Right.
[53:45]
Matt Kauflick
Meanwhile, like, she is a genuine person in there.
[53:47]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[53:48]
Matt Kauflick
That we talked about this in the Little Shop episode as well. Of, like, must Audrey be, quote, unquote, hot to be in the show?
[53:53]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[53:54]
Matt Kauflick
And I was like, it's not that she has to be hot, but there are certain aesthetics. Unfortunately, it's the reality that are, like, top of the list of objective, objectifiable, or, you know, like, where people objectify women.
[54:08]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[54:08]
Matt Kauflick
Certain kinds of body types that are top the list all the time.
[54:11]
Kevin Duda
Yep, yep, yep.
[54:12]
Matt Kauflick
And it has to be that with Audrey, because this is a person that the world sees and clocks, trash and. And humans suck.
[54:20]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[54:21]
Matt Kauflick
And this. The. The tragedy is that she's, like, the most innocent one in the show and, like, has a heart of gold. And it's just a kid. It's very Marilyn.
[54:27]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[54:27]
Matt Kauflick
And Carla is kind of the same way. Like, Carla is a silly person.
[54:31]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[54:31]
Matt Kauflick
She doesn't have a lot of depth, but she does feel well.
[54:34]
Kevin Duda
She doesn't have depth that we see. Like, who knows if she could have depth.
[54:38]
Matt Kauflick
Sure.
[54:38]
Kevin Duda
She was, you know, challenged. Yeah. Yeah. Right, Right.
[54:41]
Matt Kauflick
I think that's absolutely fair.
[54:42]
Kevin Duda
Because also, like, I often think of, like, what was the conversation she had with the husband to get him to divorce her.
[54:47]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[54:48]
Kevin Duda
You know, she had to make some kind of, like, listen, kid, you know, this isn't going any. You know, like, she probably has that, like, she can turn it on and turn it off. And in the show, we just never see her turn it off until the end.
[54:58]
Matt Kauflick
Right. We also learned that this relationship between her and Guido has been going on for a long time.
[55:05]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[55:06]
Matt Kauflick
Because Luisa found out about it. The wife, Louisa, found out about it, and Guido claimed he ended it.
[55:11]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[55:11]
Matt Kauflick
And it's still going. And we don't know the details. Like, maybe he did try to end it in the rekindled and, like. But also, a lot of people know about.
[55:19]
Kevin Duda
Right. Carla. Right.
[55:20]
Matt Kauflick
One wonders, like, what exactly is her status in Italy? Is she just sort of, like, is she, like, a Real Housewife of Italy where she's, like, kind of famous? Being famous. It would. She used to be an actress. What's going on?
[55:30]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[55:31]
Matt Kauflick
Because Louisa has to answer to all those reporters and, like, your husband's friendship with Carla whatchamacallit.
[55:35]
Kevin Duda
Sure. And also, like, does your husband know you're here with another woman? And he's. He's. He's like, that is my wife.
[55:39]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[55:40]
Kevin Duda
Does your wife know? Sorry, it's one of.
[55:41]
Matt Kauflick
It's one of my favorite line readings from the revival cast recording. Does your wife know you're traveling with.
[55:46]
Kevin Duda
This woman.
[55:49]
Matt Kauflick
Whoever that blonde woman in the ensemble is who does. She's the only one who does a British accent because everyone else is doing either bad Italian or bad German.
[55:56]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[55:57]
Matt Kauflick
I think only Linda Muggleson's doing the bad German, and it's intentional. She's doing intentionally badger.
[56:01]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[56:01]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Your producer claims you haven't even started it, but everybody else is like, what are you doing here, Guido? And whoever that Blanchic is, she wears a mini skirt. She's like. She's basically wearing a Chanel suit with the skirt chopped in half.
[56:16]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[56:17]
Matt Kauflick
She's. Yeah, she's wearing, like, what Margot Robbie's wearing in Barbie chopped with a skirt chopped in half with a little blonde bob. And she's one of the few women in the ensemble that Antonio Banderas, like, constantly makes out with because he's making out with all the principals.
[56:29]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[56:29]
Matt Kauflick
But there's only, like, two women in the ensemble that he's constantly necking with, and she's one of them, and she's the one who goes, does your wife know you're traveling with this woman?
[56:36]
Kevin Duda
Attic girl.
[56:36]
Matt Kauflick
I was like, yeah, I was like, I don't know who you are. If you know, if y'all know who this blonde gal is, she's done the work. Yeah. Tell her we love her. We see her, we love her.
[56:45]
Kevin Duda
I love it.
[56:46]
Matt Kauflick
I love everyone. I love everyone. I gotta say, I love everyone in that revival. And again, speaking of, like, being photographed like Margaret Qualy, every woman in that roundabout revival looked like a million dollars ready for the COVID of Vogue. Italian Vogue.
[56:59]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Who did those costumes? Do we know?
[57:01]
Matt Kauflick
I don't know. And. But it's not just the costumes. Like. Like, who did the hair and makeup? Like, if ever there was an argument that there should have been a hair and makeup, Tony, it's the 2003 9.
[57:11]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[57:11]
Matt Kauflick
Because the eye makeup, the wigs, it's just fucking incredible.
[57:15]
Kevin Duda
It wasn't William Ivy Long, was it?
[57:16]
Matt Kauflick
No, it wasn't. He did the O.G.
[57:17]
Kevin Duda
Okay, okay, right. He did the O.G.
[57:19]
Matt Kauflick
That'S what made his career.
[57:20]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[57:20]
Matt Kauflick
I'll keep looking it up. We actually can talk more about the OG Because I'm sure you know a lot about the origins of that production.
[57:29]
Kevin Duda
Hold on. Costume design. Vicki Mortimer. Who?
[57:32]
Matt Kauflick
I think she's British. She sounds. That sounds British, Vicky. Okay. Vicki Mortimer sounds like the most British name.
[57:37]
Kevin Duda
The rest of her credits are. Yeah, yeah. Real thing. Yeah, yeah, she's British. British fiddle on the roof. Yeah. Okay. Sorry, Vicky, I don't know you, but I should.
[57:47]
Matt Kauflick
Well, the other question is, like, her. Her big coup de theatre of that design is Jane's outfit for Carla.
[57:57]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[57:57]
Matt Kauflick
If. If Anita Morris's body stocking in the original is iconic. I think Jane's, like, nude dress with crystals dripping off her tits is also iconic.
[58:05]
Kevin Duda
Agreed, agreed. And her entrance. Do you want to talk about her entrance?
[58:08]
Matt Kauflick
We'll talk about her. Call for the Vatican in a quick second of the comp of the combinations. You. I just want to figure out. Hair design is by David Brian Brown. Makeup designed by Naomi Dawn. Those two deserve the world.
[58:21]
Kevin Duda
David Brian Brown is fantastic. He's always fantastic. Fantastic.
[58:24]
Matt Kauflick
What else has he done?
[58:25]
Kevin Duda
Oh, a ton of. Oh, my gosh.
[58:26]
Matt Kauflick
I'm looking it up.
[58:27]
Kevin Duda
Click his. Click his thing.
[58:28]
Matt Kauflick
He did Days of Wine and Roses.
[58:30]
Kevin Duda
He did like, a million. A million Broadway shows.
[58:32]
Matt Kauflick
Kiss Me Kate, Moulin Rouge. Oh, he loves Kelly O'Hara. War paint. She lures me. Oh, so, okay, he had Benanti again. Bridges. Okay, again. Another Kelly Follies. Solid Shishtoract. Bye Bye Birdie. Well, they can't all be winners.
[58:50]
Kevin Duda
Oh, Lord, that revival.
[58:52]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, I saw that revival. The Woman next to me fell asleep during English teacher. I was like, girl, we are seven minutes in. Strapping.
[59:00]
Kevin Duda
That's a very roundabout. That's a very roundabout subscriber there.
[59:03]
Matt Kauflick
Yep, yep, yep. Well, that's someone who probably signed up to go C9 and then regretted it four years later. She's like, now I'm here saying goddamn bye bye birdie. We'll talk about call from the Vatican in a quick second, but first, let's take take another break. Really?
[59:17]
Kevin Duda
I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Freddy.
[59:32]
Matt Kauflick
Come to me. Focus Features invites you to succumb to the darkness.
[59:38]
Kevin Duda
From director Robert Eggers comes a masterpiece of horror. He is coming. This creature is a force more powerful than evil. It is death itself. Nosferatu. We do r under 1700 without parent only theaters Christmas Day special engagements in Dolby and imax.
[60:03]
Matt Kauflick
This show is brought to you by Better Help. It's December, y'all. It's dark, it's cold. And while the holidays are great in theory, they are infamous for taking an overwhelming toll on our mental health. So it might be the perfect time to try out BetterHelp online therapy. Designed for your convenience, therapy is a powerful resource that can help you go out into the world as your most resilient and dynamic self. And because BetterHelp is entirely online, you can access it anytime, anywhere. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire so that BetterHelp can get you matched with a licensed therapist. If you're not sure if that person is an exact fit, not to worry. You can switch at any time to someone more your speed at no additional cost. Full disclosure. I used BetterHelp during a period when I desperately needed therapy, and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. So give online therapy a try and find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com broadwaypod today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelphelp.com broadwaypod and we're back. So I also love how it was like, let's not talk about Carla too much. And now we're just like, do we want to talk about call from the Vatican or do we want to get into another character? Or do you want to look at one of the questions submitted by the listeners and start that way?
[61:19]
Kevin Duda
Let's look at it. I mean, let's Talk about all the care. I mean, can we hit the women? Can we hit the top five women?
[61:24]
Matt Kauflick
Top. Oh, yeah. So, okay, top five women would be Mother. Mother. Mama.
[61:29]
Kevin Duda
Mama.
[61:29]
Matt Kauflick
Mama. Carla, the mistress.
[61:31]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[61:31]
Matt Kauflick
Louise, the wise. Claudia, the actress and the muse. And then Lillian LaFleur, the producer.
[61:36]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[61:37]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. And then Sarah Geen is like.
[61:39]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah. Sarah guinea is in the history of. She's not. She's not really present, even though the mom isn't either. But let's just, you know, Mom. Yeah.
[61:46]
Matt Kauflick
Mom is dead and floating and out. Sarah Gina is just. She's the.
[61:49]
Kevin Duda
She's a means to. She's a means to the education. Meaning. Yeah.
[61:52]
Matt Kauflick
She's the inciting incident.
[61:53]
Kevin Duda
Yes, correct.
[61:54]
Matt Kauflick
Possibly child rape.
[61:56]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God, I never thought. I mean. Yes, it's uncomfortable. It is uncomfortable.
[62:00]
Matt Kauflick
It's also. Every production has their decision of what exactly happened with Sarah.
[62:04]
Kevin Duda
Correct, Correct.
[62:05]
Matt Kauflick
The original eight and a half movie is just that she dances for them on the beach.
[62:08]
Kevin Duda
Sure, sure. Right. And I think that's an appropriate, like, introduction to the female body. The. A woman who didn't really care.
[62:16]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[62:17]
Kevin Duda
You know, it's. There's that, there's that trope in a lot of like coming of age movies where who is that? Who was the sexual awakening? But I think the boys like, think of her as more like. Like he even says it in, in the, in the lyric. He says, the Catholic Church taught me that there was two types of women. One was a whore, one was a wife.
[62:34]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[62:34]
Kevin Duda
You know, and this, this. And, and in the old, in the olden days, I'm air quoting here, like, you know, there was always sort of a town whore. Right. Like there was always that character, that trope of woman. And I think Sarah Gina sort of twists that, that archetype a little bit because she takes it one step further and actually teaches them about like, if you want to please a woman.
[62:54]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[62:55]
Kevin Duda
Like, not just like, here's tits, here's ass. Like, it's like, if you want to please a woman, here's what you do.
[62:59]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. He. Because he asks her to teach him about love.
[63:02]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[63:03]
Matt Kauflick
She says, if you want to make a woman happy.
[63:05]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[63:06]
Matt Kauflick
Not like, here's the key to your happiness.
[63:09]
Kevin Duda
You're gonna make the woman happy.
[63:10]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Because that's how you're going to keep getting it. Like.
[63:14]
Kevin Duda
Well, because her whole existence would be keeping men happy.
[63:16]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[63:17]
Kevin Duda
So she's like, if I get the chance to train a new next gen, you know, here's how we're gonna do it.
[63:22]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. She has. She's been paid.
[63:24]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[63:24]
Matt Kauflick
She has their ears.
[63:25]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[63:26]
Matt Kauflick
She's gonna do it.
[63:26]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[63:27]
Matt Kauflick
And they're gonna listen. Because Sarah Gina lives on the outskirts of town. She lives on it. She lives on a beach.
[63:31]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[63:32]
Matt Kauflick
By a parochial school.
[63:33]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[63:33]
Matt Kauflick
Which is also. I'm just like, bitch work. It's. It's very much giving the witch from next door.
[63:39]
Kevin Duda
It is giving the witch from next door. Only. Only when she's singing about beans. Beans, hello.
[63:46]
Matt Kauflick
Flicking them beans. Hey. Yeah. In the. In the. In eight and a half, she is just simply dancing on the beach. And you also, like, watch that. She's just sort of having fun with it. It's not.
[63:55]
Kevin Duda
They're doing it for. She's not performing for the. Or she is, but she's not.
[63:58]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, yeah, she's performing for them, but, like, it's. She's. She's teasing them. She's like, these are children. Let's have fun with it. The boys are genuinely happy.
[64:05]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[64:06]
Matt Kauflick
In the original nine, it is viewed much more similarly to Eight and a half. Or like, the Sarah Gina of the original is Kathy Moss, who. She's voluptuous. I would not call her sexy. She's very earth mother and plays it much broader. And then I would argue that the revival. And it's just. Because it's literally. I just watched it today. They portray Sarah Gina. She's not malicious, but she's not safe earth mother either. It's a little more dangerous.
[64:38]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[64:38]
Matt Kauflick
And they. And the way they get away with it is that because there's no group of boys in that revival. Because economics, right. We'll have the one little Guido. But so for that whole first half of Be Italian, it's Antonio and the little boy. And because they're, like, mirroring each other. And a lot of the physical stuff Saragina does to Guido, she does to Antonio. But the little boys mirroring all of Antonio's physicality.
[65:00]
Kevin Duda
So, you know, it's too.
[65:02]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. You know, she did all of this to him when he was nine.
[65:04]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[65:05]
Matt Kauflick
And it's not like she's like, okay, and now your fist goes here.
[65:07]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[65:08]
Matt Kauflick
Nothing like that.
[65:08]
Kevin Duda
Right, right, right.
[65:09]
Matt Kauflick
No, it's musical theater.
[65:10]
Kevin Duda
No, it's more like this is the outline of the breast. This is. If you want to tap me, if you want to pinch me, pinch me in the ass, because there's a lot of fat there. Blah, blah, blah.
[65:17]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. But then when the number ends, it ends with like, they're all doing the la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. But it ends with all the Women surrounding him and Saragina. And Antonio's older Guido hugs his younger self, like, in almost like a protective kind of way. And I watched. I was like, are they implying that something happened? Something happened. Like. Yeah. It wasn't just like, oh, let me tell you about love. Which, like, got very dark. Very dark, very quickly dark. Yeah.
[65:45]
Kevin Duda
And I don't remember that.
[65:47]
Matt Kauflick
It's a. It's a very British take.
[65:48]
Kevin Duda
Well, I mean, you know, Sarah Guinness should be the antithesis of his mother.
[65:53]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[65:54]
Kevin Duda
Right. His mother was this sort of, like, Virgin Mary, angelic sort of, like, trope, you know, like, existence in his life.
[66:00]
Matt Kauflick
Who.
[66:00]
Kevin Duda
And that's why. I think that's why in the script, she. You know, the nun is. Well. Or the intestines of the nun, but really his mother, who's the one who means something to him. Yeah. You know, the nun says, like, why did you go. The mother says, why did you go there? And he's like, I didn't know. I didn't. I just wanted to go there because I heard about her. Yeah.
[66:16]
Matt Kauflick
I wanted to see what she was like.
[66:17]
Kevin Duda
I want to see what she was like. Right, right. And she happens to be sort of the same. She happens to be this Mother Earth figure, but of a different ilk than his mother is.
[66:26]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. It's. France and Italy are countries that are both very brazenly sexual while also being brazenly religious.
[66:34]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[66:35]
Matt Kauflick
Which is hilarious to me. And listen, like, we come from a country that is also, like, crazy religious, but I think that there's much more of an inner fight in America about that part than anything else.
[66:45]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[66:45]
Matt Kauflick
But so it is fascinating to me that in. In Italy, at least, especially at that time where it's like you have sexuality everywhere.
[66:54]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[66:55]
Matt Kauflick
Everyone is just leading with their loins. It's honestly half of what lightning the Piazza is about. Like, it's. It's. It's.
[67:01]
Kevin Duda
It's.
[67:01]
Matt Kauflick
It's pasta and putting your dick in the pasta.
[67:03]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[67:04]
Matt Kauflick
But then also, it's like crucifixes everywhere.
[67:07]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[67:08]
Matt Kauflick
And so it's just. It's.
[67:11]
Kevin Duda
You watch the dichotomy of the European version. Yeah. Virtue.
[67:15]
Matt Kauflick
Absolutely.
[67:15]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[67:16]
Matt Kauflick
And I think what's fascinating is nine as a musical and also in both presentations that I guess, technically speaking, you and I both watched, just not both of them together at the same time. Yeah, we watched one together.
[67:29]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[67:30]
Matt Kauflick
Is that like. Like, it leads with sensuality and style at the beginning, and then once we get to the bells of St. Sebastian, it's like almost a little bit of like sex shaming. Does that make sense? Yes. Especially the little. The Lavo roundabout one. Like, when they. When Be Italian ended, I was like, oh, this stops being a celebration of. Of sexuality and a freedom that comes with it.
[67:54]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[67:55]
Matt Kauflick
And because I feel like Be Italian is. It's. First of all, it's campy advice. It's like, it's those. I love that song. Those lyrics are camp. Yeah. You be Italian, you rap Scallion. Like more. Everyone knows if dance 10 looks three. Like more. Yes. And is music 10, lyric six. Because he has some great ones, then he has ones. You're like, baby. Yeah, that was a dummy lyric that made it to print. But actually, sorry, fun fact. So I brought with me the Razzle Dazzle book by Michael Riedel, and he has a whole chapter about nine V Dreamgirls. Okay. And we'll talk more about this as we talk about, like, the history of nine and its origins. Like, nine coming to Broadway was like, one of the most fast tracked, sloppy paint was still wet on opening night kind of shows.
[68:41]
Kevin Duda
Really.
[68:41]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, you don't know that.
[68:43]
Kevin Duda
No.
[68:43]
Matt Kauflick
Okay. We'll talk more about that in a second. But Frank Rich, you know, goes to one of the critics performances because that would. The late 70s, early 80s was the beginning of, like, critics no longer coming on opening night.
[68:55]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[68:55]
Matt Kauflick
Starting to come, like, early. Yeah. Because like, we want more time to, like, think about our reviews and write them better.
[69:00]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[69:01]
Matt Kauflick
Not instead of just being like, set, good actors, hot. Right. As, like, as theater got more complex, like, we want to be able to stew on this a bit longer. So Frank Rich went to one of the press performances and then asked the producer because the cast album hadn't come out yet and there wasn't a script. He's like, do you have like. Like a demo I can listen to? I want to listen to the score again. And she's like, oh, my God, Amazing. We're about. We're about to get a rave. And so she gives it to him and his review, like, it's a. It's a favorable review with a lot of caveats. Most of them, I would argue, are relatively fair. Yeah. One of the things he says is, like, Yeston writes compositions like you wouldn't believe. He's like, some of the best compositions ever. And he's like. He's like, there are so many bum lyrics. And he's like, any. And he used the demo as an example to cite them all, which, to Frank Rich's credit, he's like, I don't want to misquote a lyric. I want to make sure that that was the lyric I heard and that I don't like it. Which is, I think, absolutely fair on his part.
[69:56]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[69:56]
Matt Kauflick
But the producer then was like, I'm never doing that again for any critic ever. Fuck you.
[70:03]
Kevin Duda
Smart.
[70:04]
Matt Kauflick
You're not. Except the irony now is, like, when you go on for a press showing.
[70:08]
Kevin Duda
You do get this, you get the entire script, Right?
[70:10]
Matt Kauflick
Yep, yep, yep.
[70:11]
Kevin Duda
Well, I wonder how much that. What makes me nervous is, like, how many of those demos were changed by the time. Like, like, especially in that day.
[70:18]
Matt Kauflick
Sure.
[70:18]
Kevin Duda
When, like, demos were not as easy to like, sit down and just, you know, beat off and record.
[70:23]
Matt Kauflick
Beat off.
[70:24]
Kevin Duda
You're welcome.
[70:24]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, I think it was probably a demo. I think it was probably a demo from the workshop. But again, we'll get to that. But we were talking about sort of the sensuality and all and the Sarah and the be Italian ness of it all. Like, the song itself is a celebration and. And a freedom. It's not Sarah. Gina's fault that Guido grew up and used that vice. Used that advice terribly.
[70:45]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[70:45]
Matt Kauflick
Like, use it as an excuse to spread his seed everywhere.
[70:47]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Right, right.
[70:49]
Matt Kauflick
Ultimately she was like, it's a. Because her advice was to make the woman happy.
[70:52]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[70:53]
Matt Kauflick
And. And, you know, live each day as if it could be your last. Like, that is the kind of advice you tell someone in terms of, like, live life to the fullest and. And make the most. And. And really, like, use what you got. And Guido's like, right, So I. Women are human socks then. And I. And, and. And movies are the only way I can get my trauma out. And people will applaud me for it. Yay. I'm sorry if that's not the entertainment industry, I don't know what.
[71:21]
Kevin Duda
Oh, no, it is.
[71:23]
Matt Kauflick
There may or may not have been a letter making the rounds on the Internet today.
[71:27]
Kevin Duda
I saw it. I read it, I read it.
[71:29]
Matt Kauflick
Yes, we all read it.
[71:30]
Kevin Duda
Dear Lord.
[71:31]
Matt Kauflick
And I told everyone. I was like, there are just so few adults on Broadway. Oh, so few grown ups. It's fine, it's fine.
[71:40]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[71:41]
Matt Kauflick
Speaking of the British. But.
[71:43]
Kevin Duda
But I have a question.
[71:44]
Matt Kauflick
Like, why would.
[71:46]
Kevin Duda
Why, you know, why do we think Guido paid attention to her? I've never. You know, it's so funny when you said that like, that he grew up to be that way in the show. Like in. In or in. In nine. Like, why. Why did he listen to Sarah Keena more than, like, he would have had more church than he would have had her. I don't think. I think he was. His eyes were opened to the beauty of women in general, not how to treat them.
[72:07]
Matt Kauflick
I think it's so much easier to follow the joy. The. The shame is what lives with you. Joy is where you gravitate towards.
[72:20]
Kevin Duda
Right, right. So who wants to live in the.
[72:22]
Matt Kauflick
So, yeah, he gravitated towards the. The joy that came from her advice. But the shame of his upbringing is how he processed it and used it.
[72:30]
Kevin Duda
Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I got you.
[72:33]
Matt Kauflick
It's. Listen, we've all been with Catholic boys.
[72:39]
Kevin Duda
Ding, ding, ding, ding.
[72:41]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, it's tricky because the sex, my Lord, it's like if it's their last meal. If you want. If you want to feel like the hottest person alive, hook up with a Catholic boy, because they will ravage your body. Like you are. Like you're markered quaily in the substance. The problem is when you try to talk emotions and mental state afterwards, it is like tennis with a fake brick wall that's actually made of jello. Oh, my God. I was just spouting truth today.
[73:21]
Kevin Duda
Oh, Lord.
[73:22]
Matt Kauflick
I'm just saying that's why you don't fuck the Guido Cantinis.
[73:25]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[73:26]
Matt Kauflick
Well, you barely let them make a movie out of you.
[73:28]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[73:33]
Matt Kauflick
That was Sarah. Gina. You wanted to talk about mama or you want to talk about?
[73:36]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I will talk about mom. I mean, like, what is it, you know, his mother is so, like, persistent in. Especially when you get to, like, her arc. Like, especially when you get to him who. Who every time the little boy is, you know, running to his mom, he calls out to her. Yeah, he remembers that time where he was comforted and he was safe. I mean, certainly, like, we should talk about the fact that nine is not linear storytelling, really. Right. It's ta. It's a tapestry of all these pieces of color and emotion and people, and they're all scattered. And I remember specifically going back to, like, why I love the musical. I remember thinking, oh, this is a challenging musical to watch. It's hard to follow someone sometimes. Like, you were just talking. We were talking about earlier about, like, Germans at the spa. Like, when is it appropriate to put it in? Why is it in there? Is it just a production number? Or is it, you know, is it just.
[74:29]
Matt Kauflick
Do we.
[74:30]
Kevin Duda
Did. Did Yeston need an up tempo, like. Or did he need to justify, like, the people who Guido was going to, in turn, use in Act 2, you know, like, fine. But I just think, you know, like, when you talk about the complexity of it, like, his Mother being this sort of ethereal Virgin Mary sort of like, presence over and over again who comes in and out. And then at the end of the. Almost at the end has this. This great line of like, Guido, why did you make all these movies that I can't explain to my friends, you know, like just like a slap in the face, you know, I mean, she's a real person, and yet when you see her through his eyes, she's this sort of ethereal being who can do no wrong.
[75:06]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[75:06]
Kevin Duda
Like, she is the. She is what all the other women collectively be. Art should be in his eyes. Maybe. I don't know.
[75:13]
Matt Kauflick
I think in a lot of. I think the easiest way to approach nine, and it's not law. What I'm saying is, it's not how. You have to. But I think if you are having trouble figuring out nine, start with just thinking it as possibly. Everything we're watching is coming from Guido's brain.
[75:32]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[75:32]
Matt Kauflick
It could be happening in real time, but we are watching it how he is filtering it.
[75:37]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Right.
[75:38]
Matt Kauflick
It's why, you know, the whole show mostly takes place in this spa where he goes to get away from the troubles, from the producer, from the script he hasn't written yet, from his mistress and all this stuff. And then everything ends up culminating at the spa anyway. And the past and the present all keep colliding very little. Edie. It's very hard to keep the past and the present separate. But, yeah, like, you watch his mother and you watch her be this ethereal and this caring figure as well as being this hard, cutting figure.
[76:04]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[76:04]
Matt Kauflick
And again, going back to the substance, the whole point of the substance is that Margaret Qualy and Demi Moore are actually the same person.
[76:11]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[76:11]
Matt Kauflick
And when they. And. But. And only one is awake while the other is asleep. But they. One cannot live without the other. They are the same. They are the same. Yolk just split into. One gets seven days, the other gets seven days and back and forth and back and forth.
[76:24]
Kevin Duda
Okay?
[76:25]
Matt Kauflick
And every time something goes wrong that one of them does something, they call up the people from the substance like, she's doing all this shit. And they're like, you're. She. Like, I don't know what to tell you. You're the same. They're like, you're no help. Fuck you. Like, Mark Quailey's like, she spends all her day eating on the couch. And then I wake up and I feel like. And they're like, yeah, that's. It's you, girl. And Demi Moore is like, she's prolonged. Like, she's only supposed to do seven days, she did 14 days. And they're like, it's you. What do you want us to tell you? And so like, everything with Guido's mom is both things that she has said or might have said, and also like how he's imagining her.
[77:01]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, true.
[77:02]
Matt Kauflick
So it's. She is the mother who sings the title song to him wrapped in that blanket, like, being nothing but a cocoon of love, as well as being the mother who's like, ah, we want a Guido to be a priest. But no, he makes these movies I can't explain to my friends. Like, it's. It's all in there, right? And maybe it's because that's how my brain also works. The people who matter the most to me, when I walk away from them, my brain splits into two of what they actually think of me, or what they might be saying about me, or how they might actually feel about me.
[77:27]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[77:29]
Matt Kauflick
And it's. Yeah, it's, it's. It's sliding doors, but just in your brain. And it's always about you. And it's always. One is like, I love them, I can't live without them. And it's like I'm trying to phase them out and I don't know how. Lord does no one else. Again. How do you think I stay so thin? It's not because of how I eat. I've had half this baguette today, but.
[77:54]
Kevin Duda
And half a bottle of wine.
[77:55]
Matt Kauflick
And half a bottle of wine. But that's how Guido's mom is to him in his brain, of like, she's both the loving and the. And the cutting and, and everyone else in his life. And it also, that is how he views Claudia when she's. When, when they're, when women. When these women are not directly in front of him. It is how he's imagining them. And I would argue it says so much about his mother because she's the one he spent the most time with and has grown the most with that she flip flops the most in his brain of different interesting mentalities. Because Louisa, when she's on front of him is like. She doesn't.
[78:26]
Kevin Duda
She doesn't fool around.
[78:28]
Matt Kauflick
No, she doesn't speak either. Like, she has two sung lines right before she comes on stage and says actual dialogue in front of his face. And her. The only two things she sings are Guido.
[78:38]
Kevin Duda
Right? Right.
[78:41]
Matt Kauflick
That's all she does, actually. Okay, we'll talk more about mom in a second. I do want to talk about Claudia.
[78:47]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[78:48]
Matt Kauflick
A role that has always intrigued me and I will say, really locked in for me today at the library watching Benanti do it, because I think being 23, Benanti has had a very charmed career.
[79:04]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[79:04]
Matt Kauflick
In addition to her own hardships.
[79:06]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[79:07]
Matt Kauflick
Which she's been very vocal about.
[79:08]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[79:08]
Matt Kauflick
We all know.
[79:09]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[79:10]
Matt Kauflick
But, like, girlfriend did start working professionally at 17.
[79:12]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[79:13]
Matt Kauflick
And then, like, got to have that Shirley MacLaine story of understanding Rebecca Luker. Getting to replace Rebecca. I also love, by the way, Laura Benanti and Rebecca Luker have the same relationship as Sherri Renee Scott and Idina Menzel in that one replaced the other. And then years later, they replaced.
[79:30]
Kevin Duda
They swapped. Yes.
[79:31]
Matt Kauflick
I think.
[79:31]
Kevin Duda
I think that's amazing.
[79:33]
Matt Kauflick
I don't know how many people can claim that. It's amazing. It's amazing. But, like, just never stopped working after that. And, like, Tony nominated at 20. Tony nominated again at 21.
[79:44]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[79:44]
Matt Kauflick
And of course, like, has the Pratt fall that goes wrong and all these other things, but, like, goes right out of surgery into nine. And. And she's always been vocal about feeling so weird and unfortunate looking as a kid, but, like, definitely grew up to look like Laura Benanti at a very young age. And the proof is in the pudding girl has been playing, like, the beautiful ingenue since 17.
[80:01]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[80:01]
Matt Kauflick
You know you're pretty when people pay you to be the pretty person in a show. It's. It's. No, it's like. It's no longer just my opinion.
[80:08]
Kevin Duda
No one's ever played me to be paid me to be pretty.
[80:11]
Matt Kauflick
I got paid to be pretty once, but it was not a. It was not a Broadway contract, so it's not real when you are. When you get paid to play Claudia in nine on Broadway, I don't care. You're pretty.
[80:22]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[80:22]
Matt Kauflick
You're a pretty person.
[80:23]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[80:23]
Matt Kauflick
You're a pretty girl. Mama.
[80:25]
Kevin Duda
She should be the most striking of all of them.
[80:27]
Matt Kauflick
Well, she's also very specific entities. Like the. In the original, when we watched together, you know, everyone is dressed in black in that original Tommy Toon production, and everyone has a very specific style. Like, Louisa is basically in, like, a working girl skirt suit.
[80:42]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Conservative.
[80:43]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. Conservative and classic.
[80:45]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[80:46]
Matt Kauflick
And sort of no personality. Carla is walking sex, not body stocking.
[80:51]
Kevin Duda
Mama.
[80:52]
Matt Kauflick
Very matron.
[80:53]
Kevin Duda
Very, very. Yeah.
[80:54]
Matt Kauflick
Sarah. Gina's, like, in a beach dress. Lillian LaFleur is looking like Paris Camp.
[80:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[80:59]
Matt Kauflick
Claudia is in a leotard with rhinestones. It is so blank slate.
[81:06]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Agreed.
[81:08]
Matt Kauflick
And in the revival, everyone is. Is. It's black and white as well, with a little bit of beige. But it is very much fashionable. Everyone is looking like a million dollars. And how they dressed up a Nanti is. She's got sort of like a. Not. It's not a beehive, but it's not. Not a beehive. You know what I mean?
[81:26]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[81:26]
Matt Kauflick
Like, it's. It's teased. It's a little teased, but very tastefully done. A little flip at the bottom, heavy black eye makeup, and a black. A black dress with a very fashionable white jacket tied with a tied belt in the middle. She looks like a movie star, but the most classic, undefinable movie star. Like, she doesn't have a style of her own. It's not an Ann Margaret where you're walking sex. It's not Audrey Hepburn where you're high class and innocent. She just looks like glamour.
[81:56]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[81:57]
Matt Kauflick
And it's perfect because all of act one is. She's just this entity floating around Guido's mind. And the one thing he knows for sure with this movie is he needs to have her in the movie because she was part of all of his successes in the past. And he has no script, he has no ideas. The one thing he knows is if Cloudy is there, he'll get an idea.
[82:13]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[82:14]
Matt Kauflick
And whenever he's talking about her, like, every you people do different things with the staging. But, like, if there's One thing the 2003 revival did, was that it, like, led with basically every woman either licking Antonio's face or, like, wrapping their hands on his dick.
[82:28]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[82:29]
Matt Kauflick
Until be Italian. When, like, sex went out the window. Because then he was like, and then I got raped at nine. And now no more sex. But before then, we have. Before then we have of Jane, like, kind of simulating. Riding him.
[82:41]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[82:42]
Matt Kauflick
In her. In her nun outfit. We have the blonde gal making out with him. Then we have Benanti on the table when he's, like, talking about Cloudy, and she shows up in his mind and she's just, like, kissing his eyeball, kissing his eyeball, kissing his nose. And then she just keeps pecking his mouth, pecking his mouth as he's trying to talk to Cheetah Rivera until she starts finally, like, just, like, licking his lips. And that's when he's like, you have to stop.
[83:04]
Kevin Duda
Right, right, right.
[83:05]
Matt Kauflick
Was I. I'm like, okay, Back when we didn't have intimacy coordinators, I don't know how they all got away with this, but it's fucking amazing. But with. But when we finally meet Claudia in Act 2. She shows up, meets Guido on the beach. And she's tired, she's cold, she just flew in from Paris. And she's having none of his bullshit. And he's like. He's talking to her. Not like she doesn't exist, but she's not a scene partner. She becomes like his therapist slash fake wife. And she's having none of it. And.
[83:37]
Kevin Duda
And she's also there at Luis's bequest.
[83:40]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[83:40]
Kevin Duda
Not his.
[83:41]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. Because he thinks she's there because she can't deny what they have.
[83:44]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[83:44]
Matt Kauflick
And she drops, no, no. Louisa asked me.
[83:46]
Kevin Duda
Right? Right.
[83:47]
Matt Kauflick
And she's like, and I can't be here anymore. And that's when she does the one thing in that video where I was like, there's the Benanti we know. And she's like, I can't be her any margarita. It takes too much out of me. Other than that, she's very. Oh, Grover. I say, other than that, she's. Oh, Grover. Other than that, she's very dropped in.
[84:05]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[84:05]
Matt Kauflick
But with. And then when they're filming the Casanova stuff in Grand Canal, as I'm watching her reactions to him, I was like, oh, I feel this now because unusual. It always. We always understood. Claudia is in love with Guido in her own unusual way. That's the whole point of the song.
[84:21]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[84:22]
Matt Kauflick
And she made the conscious decision years ago to separate herself from him because she realized that he's in love with a version of her that doesn't exist.
[84:29]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[84:30]
Matt Kauflick
She's in love with the version of him.
[84:32]
Kevin Duda
That can never. Can never happen.
[84:34]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. Of, like, who she's in love with, who he is as well as who he could be. The problem is, is that she, in order to be with him, he would have to be the person he could be, and he never will.
[84:45]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[84:45]
Matt Kauflick
And that's what made her sort of walk away.
[84:48]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[84:48]
Matt Kauflick
But there is the part of him that still exists that she loves, which is ultimately what keeps her there for the movie. And you watch in the Casanova sequence, which she playing the Louisa stand in.
[84:58]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[84:58]
Matt Kauflick
And they're doing the duet. And you watch, like, in a moment, Benanti's Louisa. Benanti's Cloudy. Like, kind of forget that she set up these walls for him. And, like, that's the Guido she's in love with. And she's like, oh, God, this is. This is good.
[85:12]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[85:13]
Matt Kauflick
This is good.
[85:13]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[85:13]
Matt Kauflick
And then when she realizes that he used their interaction for a later sequence and she. Furious. But also. But she's also. She. You Benanti kind of like, laughs at.
[85:26]
Kevin Duda
Herself because she's like, I fell for it.
[85:29]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. And she says, like, in the scene with Guido, you know, I'm not your muse. It always came from you, blah, blah. And she's like, no. Like, this was always what I feared. He thought of me. And I always said it because it was like, if I said it first, like, you know, he could ever hurt me with it. But, like, no, he just did it. He did the thing. I've been used this entire time.
[85:49]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[85:50]
Matt Kauflick
He's never gonna be that. He doesn't understand me. He doesn't know me. He doesn't care. It's about what I can do for him.
[85:56]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[85:57]
Matt Kauflick
I. I'm out.
[85:58]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[85:59]
Matt Kauflick
I'm out.
[85:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[86:00]
Matt Kauflick
And I mean, it doesn't have to necessarily be artistic, but, like, I don't know. Have you ever. We don't have to tell too much. Like, have you ever been in a situation where you felt like somebody was around you more? Because if they just liked how they felt when they were around you, not because of you.
[86:17]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I think whenever you're. I mean, it's hard to say because as an actor, you're always being used for pieces of yourself. I mean, that's your job.
[86:26]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[86:26]
Kevin Duda
So it's sort of like you. You protect. I mean, I think what's. Also. Yes. You. Pretty. So, yes. I'm sure there was someone who wanted to be around me because of how I made them feel, but not who I was. But I don't think I was ever. I don't think I ever identified it. Because you're so used to that as an actor, putting in those bits and pieces, and you're. And your job is to make people feel.
[86:46]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[86:47]
Kevin Duda
So it's sort of like it's part and parcel of the job. I will say the interesting thing is it's so meta. The Laura. Not specifically Laura and Antonio, but like the Claudia Guido in the scene falling in love with each other as scene partners who are in love with. She's in love with him, but they're in love with each other for different reasons in the scene than they are out of the scene, then they are in life.
[87:09]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[87:09]
Kevin Duda
You know what I mean? There's like three levels there that it's really heavy of, like, finding her back in a script and saying, I won't play this role again. And then finally, when he offers her a role that she hasn't played, he still subbed. He still, you know, sort of like drops her into this. This. This. This this column, you know, she's playing.
[87:28]
Matt Kauflick
A different role in his movie this time, but she has remained the role in his life.
[87:32]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[87:34]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I think as. Maybe I know you, you're an actor who's been in quite a few shows that people have enjoyed and have had. Had fans when. When you would see fans at the stage door who would, like, say the loveliest things to you. I'm sure part of it was wonderful to hear as an artist, but while also being like. But you don't actually know me.
[87:50]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[87:50]
Matt Kauflick
Right.
[87:50]
Kevin Duda
And you have to. The. The survival rate is the people who do say, like, thank you so much. That's so lovely of you to say.
[87:57]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[87:58]
Kevin Duda
And, you know, there was.
[88:00]
Matt Kauflick
When I.
[88:00]
Kevin Duda
Especially when I left. When I left acting, I was like, oh, am I gonna really miss the. The applause? And I mean, you know, and I don't mean that as a. I mean, I know people are probably laughing now because, like, where else do you get applause in your. In your job? But, like, we connect it so much to, like, our. Our, you know, our ego and. And sort of, you know, praise and all that stuff and. And getting attention. And thankfully, I think, like, a lot of the. A lot of the people in Mormon, you know, period, like, that show, period, was a lot of really whole, like. Like whole human beings who. Who could discern between the praise of the show and who they were as people.
[88:37]
Matt Kauflick
That's good.
[88:37]
Kevin Duda
So, yeah, it was. It was good. And. And. But it's funny to see it. It's funny for you to mention it as, like, a thing in nine, because, you know, those. Those. There's. There's ego all over that show.
[88:48]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, yeah.
[88:49]
Kevin Duda
So, like, everyone's using, you know, like a good musical. Everyone's using each other for their own purposes and, you know, getting what they need and walking away, especially Guido. But, like, all those women are doing that to him too. They're. They're using him for what he has.
[89:00]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[89:01]
Kevin Duda
You know, I mean, they all want more where he doesn't want more.
[89:04]
Matt Kauflick
But if he weren't a famous film director.
[89:07]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[89:08]
Matt Kauflick
Who gave the world art that they loved.
[89:11]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[89:11]
Matt Kauflick
Would his attention mean anything?
[89:13]
Kevin Duda
Right. Correct. Correct. Would they feel the same about it?
[89:16]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, because they say, you know, there are moments where we get confessionals, I guess you could call it, from different women about, like, how he made them feel or moment interactions they had with him.
[89:25]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[89:26]
Matt Kauflick
Was a. He was a good lover. He made me feel like the most beautiful one in the world. Like, I'm sure that was true in the moment. But would you have. And yes, he's like a handsome dude, depending on who plays him. But the whole point is that he's a world famous director who's given art that people recognize. Last night with, with my two friends, I was going through the list and some photos of men I had been intimate with this year because I needed to be like, tell me that at least four of them are attractive. Because I thought they were all attractive when I hooked up with them. But, like, tell me that I'm not a broken person looking for validation from anyone who will get naked with me.
[90:02]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[90:02]
Matt Kauflick
That I actually, like, made it a point to be with someone who I found attractive. Right, Right. Unfortunately, my friend Josh lives, like, I can only say three. I was like, okay, but we're not.
[90:12]
Kevin Duda
Even a swing for a four.
[90:13]
Matt Kauflick
He and I have very different tastes. The litmus test is that he's in love with Joe Locke from Heartstopper. I'm in love with Kit Connor from Heartstopper. So that's how we know we're never gonna fight over the same man. But it was one that. What that was my ego being like, I didn't just, like, do this to. To feel okay for a minute, right. Like, there I, I, I waited out for people who I found attractive. Right. And Josh kept me, like, did you find them attractive? Like, if you did, that's fine. I'm like.
[90:38]
Kevin Duda
I was like, no, you're not helping. You're not helping.
[90:40]
Matt Kauflick
That's not what. That's not what I'm asking. But the thing with the women in nine, as you said, it's like they all think Guido's is. It is attractive in some way or another. And, and it doesn't matter if they're soul mates or not. The thing with Claudia. And maybe it's just like, because I have had a. I also have had, like, a very specific relationship where I felt so important in the moment and then after the fact felt so dismissed. Not dismissed, but misused. Because to say used is to imply, like, malice. It wasn't malice so much. It was just like they thought that they were doing the honorable and sweet thing. And it was after the fact was like, now that the high's worn off and I'm where I'm at, this was a misuse of me.
[91:36]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[91:37]
Matt Kauflick
And even. Even with much time later and. And a reconnect and, like, discussion, I'm like, in some ways, this still feels like a misuse if I'm looking for validation that I hooked up with someone who was attractive. You're looking for validation that, like, I will absolve you. And. And in some ways I did. In some ways I didn't.
[92:00]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[92:00]
Matt Kauflick
But I think that they got, like, as much absolvement as they needed. Catholic boys. And I'm like, oh, so, like, our very long conversation of, like, wanting to check in on each other and, like, possibly be in each other's lives now isn't real because you got the Hail Mary full of grace that you needed.
[92:19]
Kevin Duda
Sure, sure. That's upsetting.
[92:22]
Matt Kauflick
But also, I don't know if it's real. That's just my perception right now.
[92:26]
Kevin Duda
Oh, I see. I mean, you'll never know if it's real. Right.
[92:30]
Matt Kauflick
Sometimes it's mama singing to you. 9. And sometimes it's Mama telling you you're gonna die someday.
[92:34]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[92:34]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's just how you. How some brains flip. True narcissists think of not only themselves as the leading role, but that everyone's thinking about them all the time.
[92:43]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[92:43]
Matt Kauflick
And I have to remind myself that nobody is thinking about me all the time. Nobody's thinking about me half the time. Maybe my mother, and that's because she's got two children.
[92:56]
Kevin Duda
Maybe my mother, and that's why it's half the time.
[92:58]
Matt Kauflick
Half the time.
[92:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[92:59]
Matt Kauflick
And I would argue maybe a fourth attempt. She's got me. She's got my sister. She's got her own mother, and she's got her own sister.
[93:04]
Kevin Duda
Okay, okay.
[93:05]
Matt Kauflick
So, like. And then her own health. So I'm like, yeah, I probably take up my mom's brain 20% of the time. Anyone else? It's like 5% or lower.
[93:14]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[93:15]
Matt Kauflick
Which is upsetting because there are some people in my life who just live rent free now because of everything.
[93:20]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[93:21]
Matt Kauflick
I wish they didn't. But sometimes, you know, you're Guido, and sometimes you're young Guido. Like, sometimes you're the character that I want to watch, and sometimes you're the character I have to watch.
[93:31]
Kevin Duda
Or sometimes you're Guido, and sometimes you're Luisa. You know, in some ways, you know, like, Luisa being, like, the one who thinks about Guido all the time.
[93:39]
Matt Kauflick
She.
[93:40]
Kevin Duda
He is the center of her universe.
[93:41]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Have you watched Sex and the City, Kevin?
[93:44]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[93:44]
Matt Kauflick
Fantastic. So do you remember in season two?
[93:49]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[93:50]
Matt Kauflick
When Carrie and Big got back together?
[93:52]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[93:52]
Matt Kauflick
And then it was revealed that he may or may not be moving to Paris for a little while.
[93:57]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[93:58]
Matt Kauflick
And of course, Carrie totally misquotes him later at lunch with friends. Makes me furious to this day because he says, I may have to go to Paris for work. Could be anywhere between three months to a year. And she's like, why didn't you tell me? He's like, because it's not definite. I wasn't. I didn't want to worry you until it became definite. And Big can be a dude, Right. But in that moment, I'm like, I get where he's coming from. He knows what his girlfriend is like.
[94:22]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[94:22]
Matt Kauflick
He knows how her brain works.
[94:23]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[94:24]
Matt Kauflick
He's like, if I told you this was happening and it wasn't real yet, and you went through your whole spinning and it didn't happen, it would come.
[94:32]
Kevin Duda
Back to bite me in the eye.
[94:33]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. It's like, I wanted to wait, right. He's like, three months. But, like, probably three months to a year. Who knows, right? The next scene, she's like, Carrie is like. He's like, is it so hard to be like Carrie? I'm thinking about moving to Paris for the rest of my life. I'm like, that's not what he said. And she calls him drunk on the phone while he's in Paris. And she's like, do you think about this kind of stuff? He's like, I think about us all the time. And to be fair, I think when you are. When you do genuinely care about someone, when you're with them, like, you do think about us a lot.
[95:07]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[95:07]
Matt Kauflick
It doesn't have to be obsessive.
[95:08]
Kevin Duda
No.
[95:08]
Matt Kauflick
But, like, your decisions and caring about the other person should be in your brain. It shouldn't be work to, like, reach out and be like, I want to make sure you're taking care of me. What are you doing? Correct. And so I think that's. For someone like Louisa is. She's like, I think about us all the time.
[95:26]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[95:27]
Matt Kauflick
Because it is us. Yeah.
[95:29]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[95:29]
Matt Kauflick
And you only think about you.
[95:30]
Kevin Duda
You. Right, right. I mean, I think my. One of my favorite things of watching the. The original yesterday with you. Maureen McGovern was Louisa.
[95:38]
Matt Kauflick
She sure was.
[95:39]
Kevin Duda
She was. She was the replacement Louisa in for Karen Akers.
[95:42]
Matt Kauflick
Right.
[95:43]
Kevin Duda
Told me that. I remember Karen Akers. I just didn't realize there was only really two. There was her and Maureen.
[95:49]
Matt Kauflick
Well, it only ran just under two.
[95:50]
Kevin Duda
Just under two years. Right, right. But knowing that Maureen had a very. A very wide acting awakening at the end of. My husband make movies where she says, you know, sometimes he might. He. He rarely comes to bed. My husband makes movies instead. Then realize what she says. She's. She is nothing if not intelligent about. About what is going on and hopeful. But More hopeful about how it can be fixed.
[96:20]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[96:21]
Kevin Duda
Like, there was, you know, there's no reason for her. She wouldn't call. She would not call Carla. She would call Claudia. You know what I mean?
[96:30]
Matt Kauflick
Like, that's.
[96:30]
Kevin Duda
You know, there is that. There is that definitive thing about, like, she knows that a woman like Claudia would not step in and take over her relationship, as opposed to, like, Carla would.
[96:40]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[96:40]
Kevin Duda
She's not dumb. She's not dumb. She knows that her success with. With Guido is his success with Claudia, you know? So I. I do think there's something interesting about what she. What she thinks of him and how much she thinks of him and how is, you know, the fact that we sort of resolve at the end where they end up taking, you know, they. They. They embrace and walk off. Was the whole thing sort of this fever dream. Was the whole, you know, I'm right.
[97:08]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[97:08]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I was sort of left with sort of, like, questions of, like, how could she go back with him at the end of the show?
[97:15]
Matt Kauflick
It's very Italian. Well, so Guido's mom has one interaction with Luisa right before. Be Italian.
[97:23]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[97:25]
Matt Kauflick
And I'll talk about what that interaction is right after this break. Hey.
[97:28]
Kevin Duda
Oh, really? I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top.
[97:30]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[97:32]
Kevin Duda
You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire.
[97:43]
Matt Kauflick
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[98:45]
Kevin Duda
It's easy.
[98:46]
Matt Kauflick
You just have to score a ton of leads and figure out a way.
[98:49]
Kevin Duda
To turn them all into customers.
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Matt Kauflick
Plus manage a dozen channels, write a million blogs and launch a hundred campaigns all at once. When that's done, simply make your socials go viral and bring in record profits. No sweat. Okay, fine, it's a lot of sweat.
[99:03]
Kevin Duda
But with HubSpot's AI powered marketing tools, launching benchmark breaking campaigns is easier than ever. Get started@HubSpot.com marketers.
[99:15]
Matt Kauflick
And we're back. So again, nine. Obviously, as we said, like, it plays with memory of, of what's past, what's present. And there's one, there's only one scene where Mama interacts with anyone other than Guido.
[99:28]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[99:28]
Matt Kauflick
And it's right before be Italian.
[99:30]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[99:31]
Matt Kauflick
We have a memory of Mama and Luisa talking and Louise and Guido are probably going through like another rough patch because Louisa says, like, he's in trouble.
[99:41]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[99:42]
Matt Kauflick
And Mama says like, oh, well, I know when his trouble began. Yes. And talks about Sarahgina. But before she gets to that, she says, you know, I left Guido's father once months. And she goes, right, she goes, she goes. It was the right decision at the time, but it was the worst year of my life.
[99:57]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[99:57]
Matt Kauflick
She goes, and I got back. It's like I did go back to him and everything was so much better when I went back.
[100:02]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Right.
[100:03]
Matt Kauflick
She goes, and, and she's like, it's not a decision I'm proud of. It's not a decision I recommend. She's like, it's what I needed to do. She was like, and, and the only reason it was better is because I realized I shouldn't have left. But like I, you know, in some ways it all worked out.
[100:17]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[100:17]
Matt Kauflick
Right. So I think there is a little bit of that mentality in some of these women of like, we get, we times progress and we talk about being like the modern person and being independent and self aware, but in a lot of ways we do lob onto traditionalism and structure. Sure. And matrimony and monogamy.
[100:39]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[100:40]
Matt Kauflick
Someone might have written a play that deals with those themes. But yeah, I need to.
[100:45]
Kevin Duda
Could I watch a live stream of it?
[100:48]
Matt Kauflick
I am going to make it my fucking mission. Because I was, at first I was like, I'm not going to talk about it anymore. Now I'm going to make it my fucking mission. That every episode I'm like, how do I sneak it in for 30 seconds? Just 30 seconds. Because the only two things I've done with my life. No, three things I've done with my life are this podcast, the play, and meeting me. No, that wasn't a thing that I did. That was the thing that happened to me. No, I have deflowered more than one Catholic boy.
[101:18]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God.
[101:19]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[101:20]
Kevin Duda
Good for them.
[101:21]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. The trick is, after the first two, you stop asking them questions.
[101:27]
Kevin Duda
What were the questions?
[101:29]
Matt Kauflick
How are you? What are you thinking? You know, things that normally lead to everyday conversation but is like a litany of trauma from them, and you're like, oh, got it.
[101:44]
Kevin Duda
You know I'm a Catholic boy.
[101:46]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Why do you think I haven't touched you?
[101:48]
Kevin Duda
I learned my lesson, Kevin.
[101:52]
Matt Kauflick
Jesus. Wait, what?
[101:55]
Kevin Duda
Hard, hard, hard, hard. Pivot back to the show.
[101:57]
Matt Kauflick
You had me at the first hard. I want.
[101:59]
Kevin Duda
I want to make sure we talk about 9 and 40.
[102:06]
Matt Kauflick
The two least sexy ages. Yes. So. But you asked about, like, Louisa going back to him. I think with Louisa, to have intelligence and self awareness and. And self respect.
[102:21]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[102:21]
Matt Kauflick
Is to separate. What do I need and what do I want?
[102:27]
Kevin Duda
Mm.
[102:28]
Matt Kauflick
She doesn't. You could. You could argue and you could argue it either way for her of what brings her back.
[102:34]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[102:34]
Matt Kauflick
I don't need Guido, but I want Guido. I don't want Guido, but I need him.
[102:38]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[102:40]
Matt Kauflick
Because ultimately they are. No, I don't. I hate to use the term soulmates, but, like, they are the compatible duo of the show. They balance each other out in a lot of ways. And they. The show does offer you moments to see, like. Like that their connection is there. She understands him better than he realizes, and, like, they are capable of having fun together. When he's not being a wet blanket.
[103:02]
Kevin Duda
Well, I mean, it's as is. As is defined by the scene where he says, tell me everything's gonna be okay, and she says, everything's gonna be okay. And he says, how? And she says, I don't know my next line.
[103:11]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, she's like, what's my next line?
[103:12]
Kevin Duda
She's like, you jerk. Yeah, you're the writer.
[103:14]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, they have. Yeah, they have banter.
[103:16]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[103:16]
Matt Kauflick
It's. And it's that. It's sort of like the. The Kathy Jamie dynamic in last five years of. I'm a part of that. Where the line. She has like, look what he can do.
[103:28]
Kevin Duda
Yes, right.
[103:29]
Matt Kauflick
Of. It's the. The art that your person makes means so much to you and not. So it's. It's both. I am so proud of the person. I love that they could make this, but also like it's so good and it brings me joy now.
[103:43]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[103:44]
Matt Kauflick
So why. Why wouldn't I stick around? You know who's good in that movie?
[103:51]
Kevin Duda
Who?
[103:52]
Matt Kauflick
Anna Kendrick.
[103:52]
Kevin Duda
Is she really?
[103:53]
Matt Kauflick
It's. The movie is about as good as you can get for last five years. Movie.
[103:57]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[103:57]
Matt Kauflick
It shouldn't be a movie. That's the problem.
[103:59]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[103:59]
Matt Kauflick
But Jeremy obviously sings that score very well. But acting wise, she wipes the floor with him.
[104:05]
Kevin Duda
Interesting.
[104:06]
Matt Kauflick
The smartest thing LaGravenes does as director is if I didn't believe in you, it just. It follows her like. That's right. Just watch her. She's Anna Kendrick. Let's watch her.
[104:18]
Kevin Duda
She's the muse.
[104:20]
Matt Kauflick
Who would she play in nine? Stephanie Necropoulos.
[104:25]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Probably.
[104:26]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. That's her part.
[104:26]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, probably. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. That's all there is really for her.
[104:30]
Matt Kauflick
I think like in 10 years she could be a Louisa. She's still a little young.
[104:33]
Kevin Duda
Yes, she could be Louisa.
[104:34]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Because she's not. She's not bubbly and. And vixeny enough to be Carla.
[104:40]
Kevin Duda
She's almost. She's almost not grounded enough to be Louisa, though. She's almost. Not almost plain enough. You know what I mean? In sort of a. Yeah, I think it's worth.
[104:47]
Matt Kauflick
Tired. She doesn't. She's not quite tired enough. But I think she has it in her. Yeah, she has it in her. That's a question on the discord is casting. We'll get to that in a second. But yeah, I think with Louisa it's also the. To. To be the smarter one in your relationship is a double edged sword because in so many ways you can see things that your partner can't. And there's a bit of a comfort in that. But then also there is a frustration in. I need you to see what I see so we can get there.
[105:19]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[105:23]
Matt Kauflick
There has been. There have been two men in my life where I very much wanted to sit them down and slap them across the face and say, do you not see that what we have is very rare and very good? I need you to wake up. Wake up.
[105:42]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[105:43]
Matt Kauflick
Check your baggage at the door.
[105:45]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[105:45]
Matt Kauflick
And try. Because this is good.
[105:48]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[105:49]
Matt Kauflick
And you are blowing this up with all of your bullshit.
[105:52]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[105:52]
Matt Kauflick
And I will walk away.
[105:53]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[105:54]
Matt Kauflick
Which is exactly what happened.
[105:55]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[105:55]
Matt Kauflick
And so that's sort of like what Louise is where she's at with Guido. She's like, what we have is so fucking good. And you keep trying to dismantle it. And I don't know why, but like, get your shit in Order. Because we have a life to live.
[106:09]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[106:09]
Matt Kauflick
And it can be. And it's been good. It can be good again. You need to stop all this shit. And it's easy. It's actually kind of easy to do. I don't know why it's so hard for you.
[106:20]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[106:22]
Matt Kauflick
And he. Ultimately, what it is, is that he has to, like, do one more grenade to blow everything up.
[106:26]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[106:26]
Matt Kauflick
Before he can finally, like, respawn and. And. And understand that.
[106:31]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right. I mean, you know, I'd also argue that she has never had a. Be on your own in their life.
[106:38]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[106:38]
Kevin Duda
Where she's lost it and been like, just go. Yeah, just get out. Like, you want to do it. You go. See how difficult it is without me. Not it. Well, that's. That's a lie. It's not without me.
[106:49]
Matt Kauflick
It's.
[106:49]
Kevin Duda
You go seeing who you are without anybody.
[106:53]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[106:54]
Kevin Duda
I am the person. I'm the person, whether you like it or not, who has been there every single moment. You want to do this? Go and be. You're acting like. You're acting like a spoiled, you know, a spoiled brat, a spoiled only child.
[107:07]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[107:07]
Kevin Duda
Go and. Go and see how that works out for you without me to have the safety net underneath you.
[107:12]
Matt Kauflick
Well, it's because it's also. Everyone has told you you're special. Your mother wrapped you up in a blanket of love.
[107:18]
Kevin Duda
Right. Right.
[107:19]
Matt Kauflick
You grew up, and you fell into a career that was very successful for you.
[107:24]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[107:25]
Matt Kauflick
And everyone has come to you. Now you're in a moment of crisis because you haven't been able to bullshit your way out of your last three movies.
[107:33]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[107:34]
Matt Kauflick
You have real things on the line. I'm trying to be her for you. And in. And in kind. What you have done is you have taken my vulnerable, true, loving self and put it on camera in a mocking manner. Because what he does is essentially, is the idea he finally comes up with is in a. In a very simple exchange with Claudia, she says to him, like, you're my charming little Casanova. And he's like, that's the movie.
[107:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[108:00]
Matt Kauflick
Because his producer, Lillian Lathor, wants a musical. And he's like, okay, there we go. A musical. Which. And Mauryesen said that the reason why they came up with Casanova is because Fellini made a Casanova movie.
[108:11]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Yeah.
[108:13]
Matt Kauflick
And so they do the Casanova thing. And basically everything we saw in Act 1 is repurposed for Casanova. And people make things from their lives and make it into art.
[108:22]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[108:22]
Matt Kauflick
Don't know what that's like, but he.
[108:25]
Kevin Duda
But he does it verbatim. Verbatim, yes.
[108:27]
Matt Kauflick
And again with a mocking.
[108:29]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[108:29]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[108:30]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[108:30]
Matt Kauflick
Which is, which is what really fucking triggers Claudia and then eventually Louisa.
[108:36]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[108:36]
Matt Kauflick
And what the revival did really well, really fucking well is they're doing the scene and he starts with Claudia in the Louisa role, then that random person in the Carla role.
[108:53]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[108:53]
Matt Kauflick
By random person, I mean, I don't know the character's name, but the actress is Sarah Gettlefield.
[108:56]
Kevin Duda
Sure, sure, sure. Right.
[108:58]
Matt Kauflick
And then Chita Rivera, Lillian as the Claudia.
[109:02]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[109:02]
Matt Kauflick
And there's a moment in that piece where he's singing to her and the. And it's just the violence going. And it's just wine burps.
[109:11]
Kevin Duda
Just wine burps and baguette burps. I'm just calling them out. I'm calls them like I sees them.
[109:19]
Matt Kauflick
Okay. Butterfly McQueen. So I know, I love her. She's great. She knows nothing about birth and no babies. She has one scene in the women's fun. But so in, in the point is supposed to be like, it's when everything kind of crashes and, and Louisa and, and Claudia are like, I'm done, I'm done.
[109:40]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, you've made a mockery part.
[109:41]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. But it's, it happens in that moment where there's no dialogue, there's no singing. It's just. And in the revival, what they did was everyone's like on is on stage watching, and Louise is sort of watching like kind of clutching her chest. And the entire time Mary Stewart Masterson has been in basically like a white button down shirt unbuttoned to her, just above her boobs and a pencil skirt and then glasses that she has on, then has off, then has on, then has off. And Antonio is singing to Chita Rivera and he stops himself and he closes his eyes and everyone's just watching. And like Laura Benanti is already kind of on the verge of tears and he makes his way to Mary Stewart Masterson, grabs her glasses, slowly goes over and puts them on Benanti.
[110:23]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[110:23]
Matt Kauflick
And that's when Mary Sue Masterson loses it and flips a chair.
[110:27]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[110:27]
Matt Kauflick
And, and, and Benanti, God bless her, she was like her. Claudia was like, I am so done. But also there are cameras rolling and you just watch her die inside. Because she knows what he's doing.
[110:36]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[110:36]
Matt Kauflick
Because she's friends with Louisa and she's just like, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this. And whereas Claudia is dying inside, Louisa fucking burns it down to the ground.
[110:46]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[110:47]
Matt Kauflick
And. Cause in the Tommy Tune version, two things that I felt that Tommy kind of sped through. And maybe it's because that recording was made a year into the run, so some things got a little sloppier, a little more indulgent.
[110:57]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[110:57]
Matt Kauflick
But the Guido dismissing Carla and the divorce papers happened so suddenly.
[111:04]
Kevin Duda
Yes. And then she sort of disappears into this mime existence in the. Yeah, yeah.
[111:09]
Matt Kauflick
Whereas in the revival, it happens very specifically. And then you watch Jane and Anita did it too, of like picking up the shredded up papers and like piecing them back together. It's so childlike and heartbreaking. But then the. The Louisa moment in the Tommy Tune revival, it's not quite as specific. We know what's happening, but it's not as defined.
[111:30]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[111:30]
Matt Kauflick
And I thought that Laveau in that revival really defined it and pushed it even further.
[111:36]
Kevin Duda
Is it still the. Isn't it an Italian scene where they. Where they.
[111:39]
Matt Kauflick
Where they were fighting in Italian?
[111:40]
Kevin Duda
In Italian.
[111:41]
Matt Kauflick
He's. He's. He's defending himself in English. She's arguing in Italian. And then. And. And she has a couple of bits of English in there as well, where he's like, I use.
[111:49]
Kevin Duda
You made a mockery of our. You made a mockery of our relationship.
[111:51]
Matt Kauflick
Of my life.
[111:52]
Kevin Duda
My life. My life.
[111:52]
Matt Kauflick
And he's like. He's like, as an artist, like, I have to take things. And she's like, fine, then use it well and go to hell.
[111:59]
Kevin Duda
Right, right, right, right.
[112:00]
Matt Kauflick
And walks away. And then does be on your own.
[112:02]
Kevin Duda
I actually thought Maureen McGovern for all. I mean, I toured. So as you know, I toured with Maureen in Little Women. And, you know, she's definitely. She's the Stradivarius voice. I mean, she can do no wrong. Vocally.
[112:12]
Matt Kauflick
That voice is incredible.
[112:13]
Kevin Duda
And her acting is good. It's always been good. But it's not like she was an actress first. She was a singer. She was a singer first.
[112:19]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[112:20]
Kevin Duda
I was really impressed with that breakdown moment that she had in the original cast.
[112:23]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[112:23]
Kevin Duda
In the replacement. I mean, I just was. I was astounded that she had that much, you know, sort of chutzpah in her to like, slam it. Slam it all to hell and walk off stage.
[112:32]
Matt Kauflick
I think that because that role was built around Karen Akers, who had natural sad face.
[112:38]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[112:39]
Matt Kauflick
There's a lot of stuff.
[112:40]
Kevin Duda
And a European. Just a whole European character.
[112:43]
Matt Kauflick
Absolutely.
[112:44]
Kevin Duda
Like her whole. Her whole structure is European, but I.
[112:46]
Matt Kauflick
Think there's a lot that they didn't realize wasn't quite baked into the role because it just was so natural on Karen's face.
[112:53]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[112:54]
Matt Kauflick
And when you have someone like Maureen who does not project downtrodden sadness.
[112:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[112:59]
Matt Kauflick
In fact, I would argue she projects health and strength.
[113:03]
Kevin Duda
Yes, yes.
[113:03]
Matt Kauflick
And so she had to kind of work harder to be simpler. But. But things like My Husband Makes Movies is not an overly sad song until the end. And even then, it's like you really need someone who just can break your heart with a look.
[113:19]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, agreed.
[113:20]
Matt Kauflick
With one look. But like, you know what I mean? Like, some people just, like, have naturally sad faces.
[113:24]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[113:25]
Matt Kauflick
And Karen had one. Karen has one.
[113:27]
Kevin Duda
She has a longer face. Maureen is a round face.
[113:30]
Matt Kauflick
Why the long face?
[113:31]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah.
[113:34]
Matt Kauflick
Like she doesn't sing, but like a Cynthia Nixon would. Would nail a Louisa sad face.
[113:39]
Kevin Duda
Yes, yes, yes.
[113:40]
Matt Kauflick
Whereas the Kim Cattrall would not.
[113:41]
Kevin Duda
Correct, correct.
[113:42]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Those friends that fearsome for some. Lillian lefleur.
[113:51]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[113:53]
Matt Kauflick
Who is she? What's she about?
[113:55]
Kevin Duda
I mean, she's the. She's the sort of. She is his bottom line. She's the bottom line. She's the one that keeps the money flowing. She's the one that. That. She's the sales. You know, he's the salesperson to her. He to her is a salesperson. She is the buyer because she's the producer. She's the producer. So she. But she, again, is a woman. So there is sort of this mystique that she has that. That Guido is. Is enraptured by who she is and impressing her and getting her, you know, Guido is the whole show is all about what do I have to do to get this thing. Get, get. I won't get what I want. Get another piece. Get. You know, I have five. I want six. You know what I mean? There's all that. He just wants to get, get, get. And these women are so. Some of. Some of them are complacent in how they. Or I shouldn't say complacent. Some of them are in. Are.
[114:49]
Matt Kauflick
They're adding to the problem.
[114:50]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Exactly. Right. But some of them give that. Give. Give generously.
[114:53]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[114:54]
Kevin Duda
Right. Some of them give reluctantly. Lillian lafleur gives intriguingly. She's like, okay, I'm. I have balls. I am a. I am a massive. You know, I'm a producer. I know what I want. I know what you give me. I know all your tricks. But yet she's still. She's still caught by him. She's still caught in the web. Chita Rivera. She's still caught in the web of, you know, of being. Of being drawn in by him. And, you know, there's that hilarious part where she's like, so I go to the spa. I go to the spa. I go to the steam bath. There's a note in the steam bath. I go to the mud bath. I go to the mud bath. You know, she still follows the scent.
[115:30]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[115:30]
Kevin Duda
Because she likes the whole. She likes the adventure of it.
[115:34]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[115:34]
Kevin Duda
He gives her something to fight for.
[115:37]
Matt Kauflick
There's a lot of her that is just very intrigued, even when she's incensed.
[115:40]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[115:40]
Matt Kauflick
She's like. She won't admit it, but, like, it does excite her a little bit. Sure. There's I. They have a hate fuck in their future.
[115:48]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[115:48]
Matt Kauflick
Guido and Lillian Lafleur. And there's a re. Her name is Lillian lafleur because it was originated by Lillian Montevecchi.
[115:57]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[115:57]
Matt Kauflick
And the role was originally a man. And then when they did the workshop with Tommy, the winter of 82, Lillian played the producer. And so all of a sudden, the character is French. Her name is Lillian, and she used to own the Follies Bergere.
[116:09]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[116:09]
Matt Kauflick
Because Lillian Montavecci was famous for being in the Folly Bergere.
[116:12]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[116:13]
Matt Kauflick
And so the whole number was built around her. That number is both so phenomenal and so infuriating to me because it takes.
[116:23]
Kevin Duda
Up half of act one.
[116:24]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. And part of it is because. God my fucking Jesus. So when we watched it with Lillian.
[116:34]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[116:34]
Matt Kauflick
There's a whole section. So there's a section of the number where Lillian the flirt interacts.
[116:40]
Kevin Duda
Does audience. Does crowd work.
[116:41]
Matt Kauflick
Does crowd work on the Passarelle?
[116:43]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[116:45]
Matt Kauflick
And, you know, I'm sure part of that was, like, Montevecchi's shtick in. In the Folly Bridger. Sure. It's giving very Gypsy Rosalie.
[116:52]
Kevin Duda
Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah.
[116:54]
Matt Kauflick
Which remind me, when we leave here tonight and go get drinks, we must talk about Gypsy.
[116:58]
Kevin Duda
Can't wait.
[116:59]
Matt Kauflick
Because you want to know, one of the. One of the things they trimmed down was Gypsy's interactions with the audience. No, the thing she's most famous for.
[117:08]
Kevin Duda
My name is. My name's. My name's.
[117:10]
Matt Kauflick
My name is Gypsy Rose Lee. What's yours?
[117:13]
Kevin Duda
They took it out.
[117:14]
Matt Kauflick
They took it.
[117:15]
Kevin Duda
Oh, no, I can't wait for this.
[117:16]
Matt Kauflick
And some people were like, you know, and by this point, my review will come out for it, but some of you are like, well, say, like, well, you know, it's not in the original script. I'm like, neither is the ecclesiast monologue, but they put that in and made it her third strip, not her final strip.
[117:29]
Kevin Duda
Oh, dear.
[117:30]
Matt Kauflick
There. There are choices in this production, and then there are non choices. The non choices is when I didn't want to bite my head off.
[117:39]
Kevin Duda
Oh, dear.
[117:40]
Matt Kauflick
I wasn't. I wasn't in heaven, but I didn't want to bite my head off. It's when they made new choices, when I went, what are we doing? What. What are we doing?
[117:49]
Kevin Duda
What is the purpose?
[117:49]
Matt Kauflick
What is happening here? Why is her final strip just her being Josephine Baker dancing?
[117:54]
Kevin Duda
No.
[117:55]
Matt Kauflick
And I'm not being racist about that. They literally. Heather and Josephine Baker cosplay dancing because Joy's a dancer. And, like, well, now we've sacrificed story for talent. Oh, it made me angry because everyone involved in that production is amazing. Why did we make these choices?
[118:10]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God.
[118:10]
Matt Kauflick
I. I digress.
[118:12]
Kevin Duda
I was like, that's up another podcast? Are we going into another podcast? Are we transitioning?
[118:15]
Matt Kauflick
We cannot. We cannot. We cannot. We have too much to talk about. Lillian Lafleur. The whole point of Folly Bergere is her telling Contini I. Because he can't remember what he promised her.
[118:25]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[118:26]
Matt Kauflick
For the movie.
[118:26]
Kevin Duda
She's like, I want to put. I want production.
[118:28]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[118:28]
Kevin Duda
I want numbers. I want costumes. I want beauty.
[118:31]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly.
[118:32]
Kevin Duda
I want flair. Yeah.
[118:32]
Matt Kauflick
Well, first he's, like, pitching her nothing. He's like, we start with this image and a train and a monkey. And she's like, no. And. And she's like, no, no. I want less singing. Le dancing. And says, yeah, I want a production. I want a musical.
[118:44]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[118:45]
Matt Kauflick
And the whole number, and then it goes right into, like, song and dance. Is amazing. Like. And it is one of the moments in the show where we genuinely forget where we are and it just becomes theater.
[119:00]
Kevin Duda
Yes, correct.
[119:01]
Matt Kauflick
And Guido Cantini even has to, like, give her an introduction to the audience, and she has this whole bit that the launching pad is. It's. It's very ucb. Someone throw out a word, and it's like, roses in your dressing room. So she. She's like, someone gave me beautiful red roses.
[119:16]
Kevin Duda
Red roses.
[119:17]
Matt Kauflick
But I. But I do not know who. Who was it? Face up, who was it? And the music is very magical and mystical, and Liliana Montevecchi takes her sweet time on that pass.
[119:29]
Kevin Duda
Real good Lord, does she?
[119:30]
Matt Kauflick
Took forever ever. Like, a solid five to 10 minutes.
[119:35]
Kevin Duda
Easily on that. Easily. And before, eventually, without much payoff.
[119:40]
Matt Kauflick
I should say without much.
[119:41]
Kevin Duda
Not much comical payoff. Because there's a way, if you tightened it. Yeah, it's very funny.
[119:45]
Matt Kauflick
Well, so it all ends with young Guido showing up with a gift for her yes, the revival. And so Kevin and I watched it on a Monday.
[119:56]
Kevin Duda
I'm Kevin.
[119:57]
Matt Kauflick
He's Kevin. I'm Matt. The next day I go back to watch the revival.
[120:01]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[120:02]
Matt Kauflick
And when I tell you that Cheetah milks it just as long as Lillian, Monte, Becky did, I'm telling you, milked it just as long with pretty much also very little payoff. The only real thing, the only thing that really got a major hit, and it's. It's not something that she does. It's something that the show put in. It is she finally finds a dude in the audience. She goes, what is your name? Oh, no. She goes. She goes, oh, George. I like that name. George. And she turns to the girl because all the women in the ensemble are on the table, and they go. She goes, george. And they all go, that's right.
[120:35]
Kevin Duda
I remember that. I do remember that.
[120:37]
Matt Kauflick
And if you. There's a bootleg. There's a bootleg of the revival on YouTube.
[120:41]
Kevin Duda
I don't know from bootlegs.
[120:43]
Matt Kauflick
You sure don't. What library? What library? Listen, but. So you're the reason why I'm cataloging my playbills, because your organization skills on your library is insane. But so I. Call me online. But. So if you watch the boot on YouTube and I think they have it chopped up into three pieces, but her. Her crowd work in the bootleg is like maybe three minutes. Yeah, Two and a half. It's clearly early in the run.
[121:15]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[121:15]
Matt Kauflick
Things are. Yeah, sorry. It's clearly early. Early in the run because the. The crowd work is short and the cast seems to be mostly getting along. Talk about it a podcast for another.
[121:29]
Kevin Duda
Day backstage at the O'Neill.
[121:31]
Matt Kauflick
Yep. Guys, y'all, you've all heard of Stage Combat, the podcast Stage Combat. We're gonna have one called backstage at the O'Neill, and it's a 20 episode series about backstage of the 2003. Nine.
[121:46]
Kevin Duda
And dressing room space.
[121:47]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[121:49]
Kevin Duda
There are personalities.
[121:50]
Matt Kauflick
There are some shows and allegiances. And allegiances. There are some shows that if, you know, you know. And some shows where people actually all got along and it was great.
[122:06]
Kevin Duda
Book of Mormon.
[122:07]
Matt Kauflick
Sure.
[122:08]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Never. I can speak for both of mine. Book of Mormon and beautiful. There was never any drama backstage.
[122:12]
Matt Kauflick
I never heard of any drama. No, no.
[122:16]
Kevin Duda
I mean usual things. You're a family.
[122:18]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[122:18]
Kevin Duda
So there's gonna be usual things.
[122:19]
Matt Kauflick
You're. People are gonna butt heads.
[122:21]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, of course. Someone's gonna be like, oh, my. You know, a lot of. It's always. Always about, you know what? I will Say the majority of complaints on Broadway is tempos.
[122:28]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, 1000%.
[122:29]
Kevin Duda
Because actors think it's supposed to be this, you know, tempo. And the conductor always says it's a click. I will say that out loud because that. And it's always a lie. I mean, it's. No, it's all. It is a click, but it's like, why am I. Anyways.
[122:40]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, that's another podcast, but yeah, one. One camp wants it faster, one camp wants it slower.
[122:45]
Kevin Duda
Absolutely.
[122:46]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. But no, there's a difference between being a family and occasionally, like stepping on toes and just like getting on each other's nerves, like you do with a sibling.
[122:52]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[122:52]
Matt Kauflick
Right. And then there are shows where sometimes you're trauma bonded and sometimes where you're not.
[122:58]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[122:59]
Matt Kauflick
But my point is, is that in. When I went to the library to watch it today, back to back, I was like, oh, God, I'm being punished by.
[123:07]
Kevin Duda
By that extended crowd work by two.
[123:10]
Matt Kauflick
Incredibly talented women who are. Have had months into their run and are getting longer and longer and no one could really. And these fags at the helm will not reel them in.
[123:22]
Kevin Duda
Correct. No resident director would even approach either one of them to say, hey, could you snip a little bit out of the Cheetah.
[123:29]
Matt Kauflick
Rivera came from the camp of Fosse and Robbins. She gets off on being yelled at.
[123:34]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, right, Exactly. You don't come up.
[123:36]
Matt Kauflick
You don't come up to Cheetah kindly go, hey, Cheetah, it's going a little slow. You go, cheetah, it's too long. It's too long. Tighten it up and she'll fight back. And you're gonna go, no, bitch, your. Your crowd work is wobblier than your knees. You tighten that shit together and get your ass backstage.
[123:54]
Kevin Duda
Lord.
[123:55]
Matt Kauflick
Act one needs to be done by 9:00.
[123:58]
Kevin Duda
The marquis says 10 on it. You've taken so long, honey.
[124:03]
Matt Kauflick
We've dimmed the lights. And it's not because anyone died other than comedy, because I'm. There's nothing more unfortunate than watching crowd work go mid.
[124:12]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[124:12]
Matt Kauflick
It's painful if it's going bad.
[124:14]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[124:14]
Matt Kauflick
It's great if it's going great. But when it's mid, you're just like.
[124:17]
Kevin Duda
Well, and most of the mid is when it's crowd work that is like, oh, this worked last night. That doesn't work ever. Never. Ask any stand up comedian.
[124:25]
Matt Kauflick
She has a line in the. In the library recording and maybe they like wrote it in for her where she's like, this is my Stage, it kills in the bootleg. The audience loves it. This. But that's like probably Aprilish by August. She says it and it's like, haha.
[124:39]
Kevin Duda
Right, right. It's the old adage of ask, you know, ask the question. Don't ask for the spoon, don't ask for the laugh. You know what I mean? Like, that's comedy.
[124:45]
Matt Kauflick
Like sometimes the soup can catch the potato.
[124:48]
Kevin Duda
That's right. Oh, slotted spoon.
[124:50]
Matt Kauflick
Jeez. Yeah. Okay, we have, okay. Some messages on the Discord Channel. Let me, let me pick them up for you.
[124:57]
Kevin Duda
Let me also just say really quick, I want to talk about for just a hot second, for serious. Hot second.
[125:01]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[125:02]
Kevin Duda
I found it really intriguing and I don't think I knew this when I was a freshman in college, when I was first introduced to the thing, nor did I really think about it when I was. Because, you know, really, like when we were, when you and I were looking at it to dice, like truly dissecting it. How smart to use sort of like nine going on 10 and. And 39 going on 40.
[125:22]
Matt Kauflick
Sure.
[125:22]
Kevin Duda
Right. Like two moments in your life where, I mean, they're different now. Right. I mean, now we're talking about 40 is the new, you know, 55 is the new 40 or. I don't know. I don't know what the. I don't know.
[125:33]
Matt Kauflick
I would say with each decade, the, the boundary of what's considered middle age or past is like, goes up by like three or four years.
[125:41]
Kevin Duda
Right. But nine is becoming double digits. I mean, so. So regardless of being a teenager, like 9 going to 10 is like 9 is still single digit. It's still. I know I'm sort of milking that, but it is sort of like there's something safe about like that is still a little boy.
[125:57]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[125:57]
Kevin Duda
Where 10 we have, you know, we talk about it all the time of how we sort of like our society sort of pushes people older. Right. Like when you're 10, you can't wait to be 11. When you're 14, you can't wait to be 18. 1821. You know, we do that all the time. I just think it's so smart to use those two things where he's having this midlife crisis and he. And the moment he remembers is nine.
[126:17]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[126:17]
Kevin Duda
You know, where, where, where Yeston was able to sort of like not only take the eight and a half mentality of it all and, and about the number of movies that Fellini had, but then nine being an age and being sort of like, you know, where he was.
[126:30]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[126:31]
Kevin Duda
Well, and he says that he found innocence.
[126:33]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. And he says, like, you know, they had trouble sort of wrapping up the show and figuring out who gives Guido his come to Jesus moment, and they decided on the kid and. And singing Getting Tall. And he said in. In the interview, he's like, I don't know when it happens where we go from can't wait to get older to wishing we could get younger.
[126:52]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[126:53]
Matt Kauflick
He's like, but it happens somewhere. He goes. And nine is sort of like the last age where you can definitively say, I can't wait to get older.
[127:01]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[127:02]
Matt Kauflick
You don't know when it. When it stops after that. Like, nine is. That's easy. And part of it is, as you said, like, it is the double digits. Because when you're a kid, becoming double digits feels so important.
[127:11]
Kevin Duda
It's big.
[127:12]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, it's big.
[127:13]
Kevin Duda
Your birthday card gets bigger. You know what I mean? It takes up more space on the card. Like, there's all this subconscious.
[127:19]
Matt Kauflick
I remember. I remember being around that age or a little older than that. Let's say, like 13.
[127:26]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[127:26]
Matt Kauflick
I remember me being 13 and being like, I'm so close to 14, which is so close to 18. Yeah, like that. Like.
[127:32]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[127:32]
Matt Kauflick
Just because of. Of all these things where you would see things around you that looked so cool and so adult and fascinating. You're like, I. It's not that I don't want to. It's that no one will let me.
[127:43]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[127:43]
Matt Kauflick
But eventually I'll get to an age where they'll let me. Yeah, but they don't tell you that by getting access to those things, you now are responsible for other things.
[127:52]
Kevin Duda
Correct?
[127:53]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. In order to get access, you have to own responsibility.
[127:56]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[127:56]
Matt Kauflick
And Guido just wants the access, none of the responsibility.
[127:58]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right. So true.
[128:00]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Again, we're digging deep, baby.
[128:02]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I also, like. I also think a lot about the fact that when you're nine, you can remember almost everything that's happened to you.
[128:10]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, you have.
[128:10]
Kevin Duda
You have. You know, have. You have. Let's. Let's just call it. Let's just call. Let's just average it. You have six years of memories. Meaning, like, we don't really start to develop probably deep, deep memory until we're like two or three, you know, like.
[128:24]
Matt Kauflick
You have snapshots and then, like actual.
[128:26]
Kevin Duda
And then actual, like. Yeah.
[128:28]
Matt Kauflick
Moments.
[128:28]
Kevin Duda
Family trips, going first day at school. Those things you remember.
[128:31]
Matt Kauflick
And.
[128:31]
Kevin Duda
And the more. The older we get, the more that. That becomes watered down. Like the moments themselves, like, we just were adding more and more onto Our memorables, which is, I think, why we have these sort of ages of like, you're turning 18, you're turning 21, you're turning 40. You know, we put these benchmarks in because after those ages, we. All we're doing is diluting memory, you know. So I think it's interesting to think about the show and how he has such a distinct time and place for the. For the age of nine and who he was and who his mom thought he was.
[129:02]
Matt Kauflick
And also, just as a child, you have nothing but curiosity because so much of the world is a mystery to you.
[129:09]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[129:09]
Matt Kauflick
You keep.
[129:10]
Kevin Duda
You're just keep on learning to happen.
[129:12]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. So many things are happening to you. So many things to learn.
[129:14]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[129:15]
Matt Kauflick
And eventually there gets to be a point where curiosity becomes inappropriate to other people, I should say. And like, for example, Guido with Sarah Gina, like, he just had the genuine curiosity of who she was.
[129:29]
Kevin Duda
Sure, he.
[129:30]
Matt Kauflick
He knew tell of her, but also, like, you could also make an argument that maybe he did kind of know a little bit more about who she was and that actually gave more curiosity.
[129:40]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[129:40]
Matt Kauflick
Because it is in the script that he said that he's the one who says to the friends, let's go see Sarah Gina.
[129:44]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Yeah.
[129:45]
Matt Kauflick
So there's been. Word has spread in the parochial school about her.
[129:48]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[129:48]
Matt Kauflick
So his curiosity is like, let's get a. A good look.
[129:52]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[129:53]
Matt Kauflick
And he's told that that curiosity has brought shame to his family.
[129:57]
Kevin Duda
I mean, you've got to be carefully taught. You are. You are taught. We are taught how to feel about certain things.
[130:03]
Matt Kauflick
Yep. Shame is a feeling you get from others responses to you.
[130:07]
Kevin Duda
Correct, Correct. I remember asking, speaking of Catholic, I was raised Catholic.
[130:11]
Matt Kauflick
You were raised Catholic?
[130:12]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[130:12]
Matt Kauflick
I wrote a play.
[130:14]
Kevin Duda
I know you did. I know you did. But I remember walking up to my mom in the bathroom and saying, like, what is. What is bitch and bastard? Like, right out. Like, clear as day. Like, not having any fear of those two words. I had heard them on a TV show or heard about a movie. And I remember her. I remember speaking of like nine and like, moments. I remember her laughing, like, sort of like laughing at the dis. Like how shocked she was that I would just say these things, but then getting stern and being like, oh, those aren't. Those aren't words, you know, and then being fearful of those words, you know, Like, I have a touchstone for those that. That moment.
[130:51]
Matt Kauflick
I talked about this on the south park movie episode of the day that south park was banned in my house because my sister and I Watched an episode. I was too young for it. I didn't understand what I was watching.
[131:03]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[131:03]
Matt Kauflick
And we were relaying an episode to my mom. My sister knew what it was about because she was ten and a half and I was eight.
[131:10]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[131:11]
Matt Kauflick
And I was like, oh, the boys get chickenpox, and. And they find out that their parents made them get it on purpose. So they go to a woman who has chickenpox so their parents can get it. And my sister's like, that's not what it was. This is what it was. And tells and says it all to my mom. I don't even remember the words herpes being said or prostitute or anything like that, but it's said. And my mom's like, you're not allowed to watch that anymore. And all I remember was being bummed because I was like, that show made me laugh. But I also didn't understand it. But it was. It was a subject. My mom was like, at eight and a half, you. We're not having this talk. We're just not doing it right. You. Like, there's. There is. And I look back on that, and I'm like, I can't blame her. There's no world in which you sit your eight and a half down to talk to them about sex, work, and STIs that they can comprehend it and be mature about it.
[131:57]
Kevin Duda
Right? Right.
[131:58]
Matt Kauflick
So she's like, no, we're just shutting it down.
[132:00]
Kevin Duda
I remember at Thanksgiving dinner, my cousin whispered in my ear, like, ask what a twat is. And I just blurted it out. I said it at the Thanksgiving Day dinner at my. At my uncle's house in Rhode Island. I was like, what's a twat? And literally silenced of the place. And if. If my father had the superpower of killing people with his eyes, I wouldn't have lasted more than a second. I'd be dead.
[132:26]
Matt Kauflick
See, I Only silence.
[132:27]
Kevin Duda
I was innocence.
[132:28]
Matt Kauflick
I. You were innocence. I only silence rooms when I enter them because I'm simply so stunning. No, I. We've all been there.
[132:37]
Kevin Duda
I remember Claudia.
[132:38]
Matt Kauflick
I remember. I'm Claud. I'm Claudia. Ko. That is me in a nutshell. Here's the thing. I. If you were to ask me which woman I would want to play in nine, it's most likely Carla, because I think that's the best one.
[132:51]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[132:52]
Matt Kauflick
I would pro. If this were college, I would be cast as Claudia. In the real world, I'm cast as Stephanie.
[133:01]
Kevin Duda
I'd want to play Sarah. Gina. But I am Louisa.
[133:04]
Matt Kauflick
You're Louisa.
[133:04]
Kevin Duda
I am Louisa.
[133:05]
Matt Kauflick
See, the thing is, I am not, like, rambunctious enough as a. As a presence to be cast as Sarah Geena. Although I would have a ton of fun doing it.
[133:12]
Kevin Duda
I mean, the tam. I just want to do the tambourine dance.
[133:15]
Matt Kauflick
I've done the tambourine dance. I can teach it to you.
[133:17]
Kevin Duda
All right.
[133:17]
Matt Kauflick
I, I. When I had Covid. When I had Covid the second time, it was 2021. And you still had to quarantine. You still kind of have to quarantine, but, like, that was when they were like, you quarantined for 10 days. No exceptions.
[133:35]
Kevin Duda
No exceptions. Right.
[133:35]
Matt Kauflick
Even though I was feeling.
[133:36]
Kevin Duda
You got food delivered to your door.
[133:38]
Matt Kauflick
And I was feeling fine for seven days. I was like, why am I. But my mom has a. Has an autoimmune disorder, so we were like, I'm quarantining.
[133:44]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[133:44]
Matt Kauflick
I was going absolutely insane. I couldn't sleep, so I was just watching.
[133:48]
Kevin Duda
Clanging pots out the window wasn't keeping you entertained.
[133:51]
Matt Kauflick
We were done with that. That was a year and a half later.
[133:53]
Kevin Duda
Okay. Okay.
[133:53]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[133:54]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[133:54]
Matt Kauflick
People were out of lockdown. I was just in my room, right? But so I was watching all these movie musicals, so I watched nine, and then I was like, I want to learn the Tarantella from the OG So I learned it, and I put it on Instagram because I was like, I want to prove to the world that I did something with my time.
[134:08]
Kevin Duda
Love it. I love it.
[134:10]
Matt Kauflick
But how do we get here? We were talking about who you would.
[134:15]
Kevin Duda
Be, who you are.
[134:16]
Matt Kauflick
Before that, it was innocence. Innocence. Oh, the children of it all. Oh, yeah. I just remember being. I was at Hebrew school, and for some reason, we took a day trip into the city, and I was in the back of the bus with all the other boys, and we're all 12, and they were all asking each other if they beat off. And they asked me, and I genuinely didn't know what that meant. Of course I knew what masturbation was.
[134:35]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[134:36]
Matt Kauflick
I didn't know that that was a term you used.
[134:37]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[134:38]
Matt Kauflick
I was like, what is that? And they would beat up, and they were like, they did. And I go slapping my leg. Like, I was like. I was like, no, I don't. I was like, no, I don't hit my leg. Why would I do that? Right? And they were like, oh, my God. Get this R word. I was like, I, I, I don't. I genuinely don't know what you're asking. And I think finally a girl came up to me afterwards. She was like, they're asking if you masturbate. I was like, oh, it's like, no, I don't do that. Not cuz I don't want to. I just haven't felt the need to. I haven't had my nocturnal emission yet. But.
[135:06]
Kevin Duda
But it's so technical. And she was like, okay, bye.
[135:11]
Matt Kauflick
Bye. I'm gonna go get my Paul Frank clips in my hair. And then. Because Jewish girls love their Paul Frank.
[135:18]
Kevin Duda
Oh Lord.
[135:19]
Matt Kauflick
Anyway, we'll talk about Discord questions in a second. But first, let's take take another break.
[135:41]
Kevin Duda
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[135:51]
Matt Kauflick
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[135:53]
Kevin Duda
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[135:58]
Matt Kauflick
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[136:04]
Kevin Duda
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[136:11]
Matt Kauflick
And we're back. Okay, so we. We famously have a Discord Channel for Broadway breakdown. The link will be in the episode description. If you haven't joined yet, please do. It was a very last minute submission. I forgot that we were recording this today. So I went onto the Discord Channel earlier this afternoon. I was like, guys, if you have any topics you want to submit, do it.
[136:32]
Kevin Duda
A last minute submission. Like a nocturnal submission?
[136:35]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. Well, yeah.
[136:37]
Kevin Duda
Was it overnight?
[136:40]
Matt Kauflick
I did get an overnight delivery from my package.
[136:43]
Kevin Duda
Oh, hey.
[136:44]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, speaking of Nine, so someone wrote as Morieston's first Broadway score. Is nine the best freshman effort for a composer on Broadway? So by that I guess Forest means, like, is this the first. Is this the best first submission for a Broadway writer? For a Broadway composer? I'm trying to think of who else we could argue because there's Lynn for In the Heights. Gettle kind of counts for Piazza.
[137:11]
Kevin Duda
Correct? I. Yes, correct.
[137:13]
Matt Kauflick
William Finn for Falsettos. Unless we're just talking New York theater in general, because that's also trickier.
[137:24]
Kevin Duda
That's a tough question. Also, like, I would argue that 9 is his most comprehensive score, but not necessarily like the most successful score overall.
[137:36]
Matt Kauflick
I think that musically it's pretty impeccable.
[137:41]
Kevin Duda
I agree. I don't disagree with that.
[137:43]
Matt Kauflick
I think.
[137:43]
Kevin Duda
But.
[137:44]
Matt Kauflick
But all my issues with nine are issues I just have with Yeston in general.
[137:47]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[137:48]
Matt Kauflick
Because like, he has some lyrics that are phenomenal. Other lyrics that you're like, okay. And other lyrics were like, can we try that one again?
[137:55]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[137:56]
Matt Kauflick
And I feel the same way about Titanic. And also there are times in Titanic where I'm like, this music is gorgeous. Does it fit the moment?
[138:03]
Kevin Duda
Right. Right. Well, I mean, I have a big problem with. With Guido's I Want song. I would like to be here. I would like to be there. It gets too big too quick. Like, there's no growth to the song. Yeah, it's a very much like, you know, it's a. It's a second verse, same as the first kind of song. Even though it's a great song.
[138:19]
Matt Kauflick
It is.
[138:20]
Kevin Duda
I would also, you know, I'd throw in, like, who else would I throw?
[138:25]
Matt Kauflick
I also think it's a little too self aware for him at that. Early in the show, he's aware of how much he wants and how. How unrealistic it all is.
[138:33]
Kevin Duda
Also, what about Schwartz?
[138:35]
Matt Kauflick
Stephen Schwartz?
[138:36]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[138:37]
Matt Kauflick
I guess with Godspell.
[138:38]
Kevin Duda
Godspell, maybe. No.
[138:41]
Matt Kauflick
Would we call Godspell a nostichi? Would we call that a no skip score? No.
[138:47]
Kevin Duda
No, we wouldn't.
[138:48]
Matt Kauflick
Because I would. I would skip. Where are you going?
[138:49]
Kevin Duda
I would. Yeah. Yep.
[138:52]
Matt Kauflick
I mean, I think it's a. It's a. It's a great first effort.
[138:55]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[138:56]
Matt Kauflick
But also, I would argue Schwartz has a similar problem to. Yes. And of like, man knows how to write a tune.
[139:00]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[139:00]
Matt Kauflick
And every now and then you're like, that's the lyric we chose.
[139:03]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. True, true, true. He's better with Menken. He's better when he's.
[139:07]
Matt Kauflick
When he's a better. He's a better lyricist. Absolutely right. He's a better composer when he's alone.
[139:13]
Kevin Duda
Yes, correct.
[139:15]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[139:15]
Kevin Duda
I get freshman outing. I'm trying to think of, like, like, so what would, like, are we considered. We're going back to like, Rogers and Hammerstein? Like, they're. They're freshmen.
[139:24]
Matt Kauflick
No, I think Rogers is the outing. And so it's, it's.
[139:27]
Kevin Duda
It would be Rogers and Hart.
[139:28]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. With Garrett Gaity. So. Yeah. Yeah. I would say.
[139:33]
Kevin Duda
Hard to compare those.
[139:34]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Then I guess Marvin Hamlisch with Chorus Line. Yeah. Henry Krieger with Dreamgirls, maybe. I guess. And remind me, we have to talk about the Dream Girls V9, because I want to get more into that with the origins in the Razzle Dazzle book.
[139:48]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah.
[139:49]
Matt Kauflick
Which is also like full of just fictional shit. But like, he gets a lot right about the nine stuff. Yeah. I mean, I think if we're. If you were to ask for like a top five first Broadway score, this.
[140:01]
Kevin Duda
Would fit in, I think would be in top five.
[140:04]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. I think it. I agree very much. Is in top five. And if anyone Tries to argue. I think you can argue them out of it.
[140:09]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, I agree.
[140:11]
Matt Kauflick
Especially when it's. You are the one writing the whole thing. Yeah, I think. Okay.
[140:15]
Kevin Duda
No, I think especially comprehensive score.
[140:17]
Matt Kauflick
I think as a whole, actually. No. Okay. No, the best. Let me make sure. Let me make sure this is correct, because I don't want to say this and then be proven wrong by ibdb.
[140:27]
Kevin Duda
Google Music going here.
[140:30]
Matt Kauflick
Okay, hold, hold. Please hold. So if we're talking about, like, first Broadway score ever, where you're either the composer, the lyricist, or you're doing the. Both. The best one. Okay. Yeah, here it is. The best freshman effort for a Broadway score is Music man, Meredith Wilson.
[140:53]
Kevin Duda
100.
[140:53]
Matt Kauflick
That's number one.
[140:54]
Kevin Duda
100.
[140:55]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, it's. It's. That's a perfect score.
[140:57]
Kevin Duda
It's an impeccable score.
[140:58]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, it's incredible.
[140:59]
Kevin Duda
I agree. I agree.
[141:01]
Matt Kauflick
And I think it beats nine because I don't think. I don't have any issues with any of those lyrics.
[141:05]
Kevin Duda
Yes, correct. Yeah.
[141:07]
Matt Kauflick
Including the OG Shapoopi, which sure. Yes. Has. Is as sexual politics, problematic. Do not. I hate that word. Sorry. It doesn't age well.
[141:17]
Kevin Duda
Okay, there you go. Okay, good.
[141:18]
Matt Kauflick
But it's clever. And we're talking early 1900s, Iowa.
[141:22]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[141:23]
Matt Kauflick
If you think everyone around there was saying no means no.
[141:27]
Kevin Duda
Right? Right.
[141:28]
Matt Kauflick
You're living a funko bub, a bubble life. People trying to rewrite history to include 2024 ideology into it is how we got into the landscape we're currently. And so I need everyone to acknowledge that history happened the way it happened so we can move forward with our Futura.
[141:45]
Kevin Duda
And also, I would argue it might be legally unsound because the writer did not write it that way to begin with.
[141:51]
Matt Kauflick
They sure didn't. And listen, there are some people that I would have no problem them spinning in their grave about what's happening to their work. Like Arthur Lawrence. Do I think that the work being done to Gypsy is better? No, but I love that it's pissing off his ghost.
[142:06]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[142:07]
Matt Kauflick
Because that man deserves to be pissed off every day of his afterlife. God damn. But, yeah, no, it's Music Man. So nine is definitely the top five. So that was one question. Another question was general thoughts about the movie with Daniel Day Lewis.
[142:20]
Kevin Duda
Oh, so many thoughts.
[142:22]
Matt Kauflick
Is there anyone that almost got the role for the movie? Did any Broadway actors audition? As far as I know, no Broadway actors auditioned. Everyone auditioned in Hollywood.
[142:30]
Kevin Duda
I can't imagine them trying even to do a movie of that. Of nine. An obscure Broadway, which is essentially an obscure Broadway musical to, like, my mother does not. My mother only knows nine because Heart did nine. You know what I mean? Like. Like, that's the only reason she knows. I would say there's. There wasn't even a thought to bringing in someone other than a big. Like a big star.
[142:50]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, the. The. The. If we're talking legacy of the show, which we can talk about very. It's very quick to talk about its legacy because it won best musical in a major upset.
[142:58]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[142:59]
Matt Kauflick
We'll talk about that. That Tony season and all that later. It runs for about a year. Year. Almost two years. Like a year and nine months, let's say, has like a semi successful national tour, gets done in London twice. It's only really done in America at schools and regionally because it has so many women. So it's very easy to do.
[143:17]
Kevin Duda
Right. But it doesn't become filters with one man, 1,000.
[143:20]
Matt Kauflick
That's what it is, baby. It's. It's leader of the pack, but gender reversed. Right. But it's. It's not. It is not a household show. There are no songs in it that are standards.
[143:31]
Kevin Duda
No.
[143:32]
Matt Kauflick
I would even argue in musical theater, like Unusual Way, Be Italian, and maybe Call from the Vatican are the three big songs from the show.
[143:40]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[143:41]
Matt Kauflick
But they're not even major. Major standards in musical theater. Unusual Way is the biggest one.
[143:45]
Kevin Duda
I think that was for. For a lot of the 80s, unusual way was the song.
[143:50]
Matt Kauflick
There was a time when somebody somewhere. For most Happy Fella was the soprano go to song for auditions. Because it was like, well, everyone's doing Somewhere. Everyone's doing My White Knight.
[143:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[143:59]
Matt Kauflick
Let's do this. And then in a Unusual way became like, well, everyone's doing Vanilla Ice Cream. I'll do Unusual Way.
[144:05]
Kevin Duda
Right, right, right, right.
[144:06]
Matt Kauflick
And we haven't had as many soprano songs since then. But, like, it's not. There's nothing in nine that has become like Broadway Kenon.
[144:15]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[144:15]
Matt Kauflick
What happened. What the revival did was it brought it back to the Broadway consciousness and made it culturally relevant to Broadway. And it. Anything you feel about Nine now is because of that revival and because of the movie. The movie happened because of the revival.
[144:28]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[144:29]
Matt Kauflick
And because Rob Marshall got a blank check from Chicago.
[144:31]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[144:32]
Matt Kauflick
Rightfully so. And that's also why he was able to get every woman in Hollywood to audition for him for nine. Because they all auditioned for him for Chicago. Right, exactly. And they kind of tried to go about nine the movie the way they went about the musical, which was like, we'll find the women we like. And we'll tailor the roles to them.
[144:50]
Kevin Duda
To them. Right.
[144:51]
Matt Kauflick
But it backfired.
[144:53]
Kevin Duda
I mean, it also backfired to go. Because that's. That's. The other thing is that to simplify nine into reality and fantasy is a mistake, because it all exists in the same. It exists in the same plane at the same time.
[145:06]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[145:06]
Kevin Duda
And you never know where you're going. It could have been a beautiful indie musical, like, you know, Tapestry, like. And yet Rob Marshall put the same smack he did on Chicago, which is like. Like, oh, this goes into her. This is in her mind now.
[145:21]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[145:21]
Kevin Duda
This is now in his mind. This isn't. And what the hell were they doing by. In. By putting the pope scene. What were they actually doing by actually.
[145:29]
Matt Kauflick
By having the actual.
[145:30]
Kevin Duda
Actually having the pope, I was gonna.
[145:31]
Matt Kauflick
Say because that scene is in the show. It's just. It's guidos doing it alone.
[145:35]
Kevin Duda
And who knows? But that's the thing is that who knows if it actually happens? Who knows if it doesn't? You know, like, that's.
[145:40]
Matt Kauflick
I think that that is the problem with the movie is that it is far too literal and too afraid because the.
[145:50]
Kevin Duda
That was my wine glass, by the way.
[145:52]
Matt Kauflick
Chicago is. I've said this before. I think Chicago is top five best movie adaptations of a stage musical ever.
[145:59]
Kevin Duda
Great.
[146:00]
Matt Kauflick
It's airtight.
[146:01]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[146:01]
Matt Kauflick
The reason why everything being in Roxy's head makes sense is because all of the songs in Chicago are not diegetic. They don't take place in the world. The whole thing is written like a Vodvik.
[146:10]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[146:10]
Matt Kauflick
So in order for a movie version to work, you need to create a reality where vaudeville numbers can exist.
[146:15]
Kevin Duda
Sure. Agreed.
[146:17]
Matt Kauflick
And so. And. And by making it that rock and leaning into the rocks, you always wanted to be on stage, so. And also she disassociates. It all makes sense and actually gives the movie a more emotional pulse than the show ever had.
[146:30]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[146:30]
Matt Kauflick
I love.
[146:31]
Kevin Duda
Especially when they go in and out.
[146:32]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[146:33]
Kevin Duda
Of the moment.
[146:33]
Matt Kauflick
It's not a bleeding heart. Don't get me wrong.
[146:35]
Kevin Duda
No, no, no.
[146:35]
Matt Kauflick
Right. So. So suddenly, Seymour, friend of the pod, posted on Facebook the other day, wicked v Chicago, which is the better movie musical. And really, that was Prescott throwing a bone to a bunch of hungry dogs and rubbing their nipples behind the partition and going, that's right, bitches feed. Like, he was absolutely stirring the pot. He didn't genuinely care what people thought. But I texted him and I was like, you know, a lot of dumb people follow you on Facebook. Right. But somebody wrote in the response to that they were like, wicked, hands down. Like, the nuance, the emotion. Who cried during Chicago? And I didn't do it, but I really wanted to write, like, if you cried during Chicago, that's like telling me you watched American Psycho and went, it me. Like, something's wrong with you if you cry during Chicago.
[147:20]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[147:20]
Matt Kauflick
Chicago is the better movie musical. But it's absolutely. Yeah. Not because you don't cry.
[147:24]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[147:25]
Matt Kauflick
But I think with Nine, there was an in there in the musical. He's been told, your movie has to be a musical and he doesn't have an idea.
[147:34]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[147:35]
Matt Kauflick
He can start fishing through his memories of like, do I have anything that could be a song?
[147:39]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[147:39]
Matt Kauflick
But then do what you're saying, which is like. I think it starts off as a hard, like, cut and paste. Like the songs are only in his mind as he's trying to figure shit out. But then as the past and present keep blending, as his reality and his.
[147:51]
Kevin Duda
Fantasy keep blending, his real world musicalizes.
[147:54]
Matt Kauflick
Absolutely.
[147:55]
Kevin Duda
I love that.
[147:55]
Matt Kauflick
I think that's what it is. And you get someone like a Pedro Almodovar who absolutely should have done it.
[148:00]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[148:00]
Matt Kauflick
But it's also hard to find someone these days who understands musicals and understands movies. Because the truth is that I think Rob Marshall does understand musicals. He doesn't understand movies.
[148:09]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[148:09]
Matt Kauflick
He got so fucking lucky with Chicago. All of them did. Because then Bill Content went on to do Dream Girls and I think Dream Girls is bumpy. He did the Beauty the Beast remake, which is flaming hot garbage. I have no faith. I've got no faith in Kiss of the Spider Woman. Oh, I hope to be proven wrong. But like, with Nine, someone was like, oh, could it have been a better? Could it have been good? I don't know if I think that a movie of Nine could have been a masterpiece. No, I think it could have been far more fascinating than it currently is. As it stands, I think it is a beautiful looking mess.
[148:41]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[148:41]
Matt Kauflick
I think it is similar to the stage. Like, it's. It's fashionable. I think everyone looks gorgeous.
[148:46]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[148:46]
Matt Kauflick
There. I think there are even some beautiful shots. I don't think all the casting is terrible. There are some people who are like, I get why you're in this. You could be doing a good performance. I will also say nine is responsible for one of my favorite teasers of all time. That first teaser with the Fergie B Italian and just nothing but clips of the movie.
[149:03]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah.
[149:03]
Matt Kauflick
It starts with.
[149:04]
Kevin Duda
I remember that it starts with the.
[149:06]
Matt Kauflick
Bell chime and then coming into the Studio with Judi Dench talking over it. And then they just do the. Be Italian.
[149:10]
Kevin Duda
Yep. Yeah.
[149:11]
Matt Kauflick
I remember. I remember seeing that teaser and I.
[149:13]
Kevin Duda
Was like, this is gonna be a masterpiece.
[149:15]
Matt Kauflick
I'm like, this is gonna win every Oscar.
[149:17]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[149:18]
Matt Kauflick
And then through his. Yeah. If you're ever like, should I watch the movie? Watch that very first teaser. Don't watch any of the other trailers. The other trailers are fine. But the first teaser is a goddamn masterpiece.
[149:29]
Kevin Duda
I love. I do love the new song he wrote for what's her name? Kate Hudson. Yeah. Cinema Paradisia. No, cinema. Sorry. Cinema Italiano. There we go.
[149:38]
Matt Kauflick
That's Cinema Paradiso. No, Cinema Italiano was fun.
[149:41]
Kevin Duda
That's how memorable it was.
[149:42]
Matt Kauflick
The. The re edit they do the one that's not for the movie, but the. Like, they did a pop remix. That one's better than the one in the movie.
[149:49]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[149:49]
Matt Kauflick
Because also those lyrics are. They're also kind of dumb.
[149:53]
Kevin Duda
I mean, isn't it a take on, like. The trouble with Contini is a medium. It's the same thing. Beat pattern.
[149:59]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. She is playing Stephanie something in the movie, but it's not Stephanie Necropolis. Because Stephanie Necropolis in the musical is a European critic who hates Contini and is there to basically be his dramaturge.
[150:09]
Kevin Duda
Hired by Lillian Lafleur. Yes. Right.
[150:11]
Matt Kauflick
And then in the movie, it is. Kate Hudson is an American reporter who's like, oh, my God, I love the fashion.
[150:17]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[150:18]
Matt Kauflick
And Daniel Day Lewis is like the fashion.
[150:20]
Kevin Duda
Yes, yes, yes.
[150:20]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Also, Daniel Day Lewis, I love him. And he actually sings better than he gets credit for. But he is so wrong for that role.
[150:26]
Kevin Duda
So wrong.
[150:26]
Matt Kauflick
Because I think the key to finding your right Guido. That's why I'm not. I. You cannot convince me that Pasquale was good in. At Kennedy Center. Didn't see it. I'm just telling you. I. I've seen Pasquale and he can be funny, but he's only funny as a heavy.
[150:40]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[150:41]
Matt Kauflick
There's got to be an impishness, I think, to Guido.
[150:44]
Kevin Duda
Agreed. And there has to be us. We have to question. Like, wait, what? Like, what is it about him that.
[150:49]
Matt Kauflick
Isn'T on the surface for me with Antonio? So when we watched Raul. Sorry, we were talking about this before we recorded. Yeah, we were watching Raul Julia.
[150:58]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[150:59]
Matt Kauflick
And you said he bothered you far less watching him than when you listened to him on the recording.
[151:03]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[151:03]
Matt Kauflick
Can you speak more on that?
[151:04]
Kevin Duda
I mean, well, you know, musically, he's not very musical. No, no. And it could have Been the audio on that old, you know. What is it, 81? No, what is it?
[151:14]
Matt Kauflick
It's 83. 83. 82. 83.
[151:16]
Kevin Duda
82. 82 recording.
[151:18]
Matt Kauflick
It's like the video we watched was done in March of 83. The cast recording was done in the summer of 82.
[151:23]
Kevin Duda
Okay. So maybe it was more time that he had with the piece anyways. But I just remember him sounding strained and sounding like not a trained voice. Definitely. Like, you know, he was doing, you know, Kristen Linklater's vocal techniques on, like, on a cast album.
[151:38]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[151:38]
Kevin Duda
You know what I mean? Like just like barely making the sound and. And shaping his mouth to make it sound like he was singing what I said.
[151:45]
Matt Kauflick
Haha, ma.
[151:46]
Kevin Duda
Well, when he went on screen, watching him, I was. I. I'm, you know, more taken with him as a. As a. As an individual, watching him perform as I am with like just an audible listening. He's not a singer.
[151:57]
Matt Kauflick
No.
[151:58]
Kevin Duda
You know, and, but, but, but the singing didn't bother me.
[152:00]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[152:01]
Kevin Duda
But also we talked about the fact that he did bother us, watching him not bother us, but he wasn't as full as I thought he was going to be.
[152:09]
Matt Kauflick
His Guido is very. Was very reserved and distanced.
[152:14]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[152:14]
Matt Kauflick
And I think that's because.
[152:15]
Kevin Duda
Calculated.
[152:16]
Matt Kauflick
And I think that's because it all stems from how Tommy Tune envisioned the production, which was bas. Because again, this is how collaboration works. Right. Like, Toon gets the recording and he envisions the entire set is this Phoenician spa.
[152:29]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[152:30]
Matt Kauflick
And so he comes up with boxes for all of these women. And Moriestin's like, why did you do that? And Tommy Toon's like, I need things to stage around. He's like, I can't do a. He's like, I'm not Bob Fosse. I hate a bear stage. He's like, I need props and I need objects. It tells me what to do. He's like. And think of it this way. Like each of these women exist in a bubble in his mind. And so this is him literally compartmentalizing.
[152:49]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[152:50]
Matt Kauflick
And so. And Guido's at the center on this little staircase. And Maury Essen looked at. He's like. Looks like he's a conductor. And Tommy was like, I guess so.
[152:58]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[152:59]
Matt Kauflick
And Mori Essen had already written the overture. And he's like, I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna kind of redo this overture. So it's all voices and Tommy tunes, like, pop off sis. Yeah, but like, that's how. Like that's how these Things kind of happen, right?
[153:14]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[153:15]
Matt Kauflick
And certain things happen. Like some songs got inspired by costumes and a costume got inspired by a set piece. Like, it's all that shit.
[153:21]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right.
[153:22]
Matt Kauflick
I also talked about this, by the way. I meant to say this earlier, but in the Follies episode with my dad three years ago, Fellini came to see Follies, the original Hal Prince Follies.
[153:32]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[153:33]
Matt Kauflick
And said to Hal Prince, like, would you consider doing a musical of eight and a half? And Hal Prince was like, I just. Hal Prince goes, I just did it. That's. That's my eight and a half.
[153:42]
Kevin Duda
That's my eight and a half.
[153:43]
Matt Kauflick
And I've. And I've since said to people, if you're gonna do Follies, I. It needs to be a Broadway Fellini fever dream. It is not hard. It is not hyper realistic.
[153:54]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[153:55]
Matt Kauflick
It is a black box of memory trauma and razzmatazz.
[154:00]
Kevin Duda
Wow. Yeah.
[154:01]
Matt Kauflick
And that is. That is what you do. So, like, things pop up out of anywhere. So with. With nine. So how are we getting. Oh, Raul Julia.
[154:10]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[154:11]
Matt Kauflick
I think by having Guido in that production is truly the conductor of the production.
[154:16]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[154:16]
Matt Kauflick
Because it's not just. Just conducting the overture. He's directing people where to move. He's doing all of these things. And so it makes him like constantly on the. Not the attack, but he's always on the angle of, I gotta control this now. I gotta do this now. I gotta move this here now. So he's always just like a little tired.
[154:37]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[154:38]
Matt Kauflick
And a little withdrawn.
[154:40]
Kevin Duda
Well. Because essentially they're all voices in his head.
[154:42]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[154:42]
Kevin Duda
So he's always trying to sort of like. Like, you know, strip this one away, put this one over here, like, move that one aside. He's. The whole show is him allowing certain people to speak and to sing.
[154:54]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[154:54]
Kevin Duda
In a way.
[154:55]
Matt Kauflick
And I wonder if.
[154:56]
Kevin Duda
Which is the cacophony at the top of the show.
[154:58]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. Yes.
[154:59]
Kevin Duda
Of all the voices that then he silences.
[155:02]
Matt Kauflick
He sure does. And then with Antonio, when Antonio Banderas, Guido was truly was the impishness of. He was a man child and flip flopping between genuinely enjoying the chaos around him. Because it was a sexy, beautiful chaos of women just constantly grabbing him and kissing him and drowning in flesh.
[155:25]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[155:27]
Matt Kauflick
And eventually just becoming too much. But he really was just like this ball of anxiety. What made him. I was thinking about this as I was watching was like, what makes him so sexy in this? Because first of all, he isn't Tony Banderas. He's. He's objectively one of the handsomest men to become famous.
[155:43]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[155:44]
Matt Kauflick
But I would even argue 9 is not him in his hottest. I think, like him in Evita is his hottest because he looks like matinee idol.
[155:52]
Kevin Duda
He's chiseled.
[155:53]
Matt Kauflick
Break every bone in my body and then treat my wounds. Daddy hotness. Like, he's beautiful in that movie. He's gorgeous.
[156:00]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[156:01]
Matt Kauflick
But Nine, he's just hot. But he's got, like, this Caesar crew cut.
[156:04]
Kevin Duda
He does.
[156:05]
Matt Kauflick
I'm like, what is it? And I. What it. It came about when he's talking to Cheetah and Benanti's famously licking his lips, which also was just like, girl pop off. But. And I. For me, I think maybe it's just my own personal taste with men that I've come to realize is that there are men who have. It's like a small mouth but puckered lips. They're just like always, naturally in a kissing.
[156:30]
Kevin Duda
Ready for kissing.
[156:31]
Matt Kauflick
Ready for kissing.
[156:32]
Kevin Duda
Sure, sure, sure.
[156:33]
Matt Kauflick
And they're not intending it. They're just like, naturally there. And it. And it makes you think about it all the time. And you're like, I kind of want to kiss those lips.
[156:43]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right.
[156:43]
Matt Kauflick
I kind of want to see what those lips can do to this part of my body. And you. And you start to question your own sanity. You're like, I don't think they're putting it out there for me to take. But, like, it's there, right? It's there. And that's sort of Antonio the entire time in Nina. Like, even when he, you know, drowning. You're like, I. I still kind of.
[157:03]
Kevin Duda
Want to go up there, tear him up. Yeah, yeah.
[157:06]
Matt Kauflick
And it's just how. How it's. Unfortunately, it's just because of, like, how he's physically built.
[157:11]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[157:12]
Matt Kauflick
But I think that it's something to think about when you're casting your Guido is he doesn't have to be, like, objectively a stunner.
[157:17]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[157:18]
Matt Kauflick
He has to be someone who a can sing.
[157:19]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[157:20]
Matt Kauflick
He doesn't have to be lothario. He shouldn't be a heavy. He shouldn't be like a manly man.
[157:25]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[157:25]
Matt Kauflick
He should be someone with machismo and charisma, but also can channel the boyishness. But ultimately, like, when you watch him, you go, am I thinking about kissing you right now? Like, we're talking about your dead dog? And I'm like, I kind of want to kiss you.
[157:44]
Kevin Duda
Isn't it funny that though, when you put a Guido in that, who is sort of like Antonio Baneras is like, yes, he wasn't at his hottest, but he's still very good looking. When you put someone in like Raoul Julia, who has these quirks. Yeah, he's definitely exotic from. And I hate to use that word, but like, he's definitely, you know, he has a European. He has a flair about him.
[158:02]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[158:03]
Kevin Duda
He has some kind of, especially for the early 80s, that sort of like Ricardo Montalban, like, where is he from? You know, But. But then you put like, you put like Anita Morris in that thing and you're like, wait a minute. If she's attracted to him, like, you almost. You almost set him up as this. Like, there's got to be more going on. Yeah, right. He almost. Because he's matched with this absolutely drop dead knockout, gorgeous girl. There's. And she sees something in them. He's obviously more attractive.
[158:31]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[158:31]
Kevin Duda
You know, it's the nerd. It's almost like, you know, the nerds are more nerds or the archetype of nerds are more attractive when someone else hotter than them finds them attractive.
[158:40]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[158:40]
Kevin Duda
You know what I mean? Like, there's that weird thing in our society. I'm not. I'm not retweeting it. I'm just saying, like, it is a thing. It's a trophy thing.
[158:47]
Matt Kauflick
Well, the. The hot nerd for men isn't that they're hot. It's that they. They just have something. And whatever that something is. Some. Somebody. Something that somebody else can recognize. Right. I also gotta say, if you do get a chance to go to the library to watch Nita Morris in nine or even look at any photos of her in that outfit, her body is put together by science.
[159:07]
Kevin Duda
Sick.
[159:07]
Matt Kauflick
It is not an ounce of fat on her.
[159:11]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[159:12]
Matt Kauflick
Listen, you and I could not be more gay. I just need to. But I. I'm saying this is like, it's. You cannot not talk about it because she's got a waist that is two inches.
[159:21]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[159:21]
Matt Kauflick
She's got legs that go on for days. She's got the biggest, fattest red hair, and she's got jugs that are the size of cantaloupes and just stay in place.
[159:31]
Kevin Duda
And the costume has allowed for them, has built around them.
[159:35]
Matt Kauflick
It is. The costume doesn't look like it's holding anything together. The costume looks like they just slipped it on her and it fits.
[159:42]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[159:42]
Matt Kauflick
The costume is in place because her body is correct.
[159:45]
Kevin Duda
She's like Rebecca Rome. Roman Stamo.
[159:49]
Matt Kauflick
Rebecca Romaine Stamos.
[159:50]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, the one in the blue, you know?
[159:52]
Matt Kauflick
Oh.
[159:52]
Kevin Duda
As mystique. As mystique you know.
[159:53]
Matt Kauflick
You know what she looks like? She looks like Margaret Quailey in the substance, but she had prosthetic boobs.
[159:58]
Kevin Duda
I'm going. I'm just going in and watching this. I just gotta go watch it.
[160:01]
Matt Kauflick
You gotta watch it. She's got prosthetic boobs in the movie. But, like, again, the way they photograph her in the movie was like, if I could look like that. Not that that. But if someone could photograph me that well for 10 minutes.
[160:11]
Kevin Duda
Thus began Matthew's transition with it.
[160:13]
Matt Kauflick
And thus began the substance to Maddie Cop. But anywho. Okay, let's keep going.
[160:22]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[160:22]
Matt Kauflick
More discord. We were talking about the movie a little bit. We'd set our thoughts on the movie. Why the. Did they also.
[160:28]
Kevin Duda
I will say. I will say that I did go to a screening.
[160:31]
Matt Kauflick
We know.
[160:31]
Kevin Duda
Oh, we're getting there.
[160:33]
Matt Kauflick
That's a story.
[160:34]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[160:35]
Matt Kauflick
Kevin went into a screening. It's one of my favorite, ballsiest things anyone's ever done. Why would they replace Be on your own in the movie? Who thought that was a good idea? The same people who thought that. So that they should cut the title song from the movie that. Those same people. Although I did realize Sophia Lorenz song, it's like the Bella de Luna or whatever. Whatever it's called. That melody is the melody played underneath Guido's mom's dialogue when she's like, you're gonna die one day.
[161:02]
Kevin Duda
Oh.
[161:05]
Matt Kauflick
That'S in the show. But it's just. It's underscore.
[161:07]
Kevin Duda
Oh, interesting.
[161:08]
Matt Kauflick
It's like how Alan Menken took a bunch of underscoring from the Little Mermaid movie and made it songs in the show.
[161:12]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah. I mean, I also would fight. I mean, not that. Not that I think the movie is good as you.
[161:17]
Matt Kauflick
As.
[161:18]
Kevin Duda
As I've said. But I also think that be on your own is a lyric speaking to Matt's point about. Yes. In lyrics. It's a lyric that just sort of repeats. The only reason it's in the show is to give Louisa that breaking point.
[161:31]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[161:32]
Kevin Duda
Where she musically walks away. And. And if you look at the musical, there's not even a button on the song. It goes right into. Right into the orchestration.
[161:41]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[161:41]
Kevin Duda
Of her exit. So, I mean, there's applause, but. But only because Tommy Tune had her exit through the house.
[161:47]
Matt Kauflick
There wasn't applause at the revival. They went straight.
[161:49]
Kevin Duda
Oh, they went straight in. Yeah. Right.
[161:51]
Matt Kauflick
So, yeah. But I think the applause is based on expectation or how you choose to do it. But, yeah. No, I. I do think be on your own would Be very hard to do in a movie, as you said. It's two and a half minutes of the same sentence. Same sentence over and over again. I mean, granite. So is defying gravity for five and a half minutes before we get to the final verse. Well, but like. But musically, I also argue defying gravity builds each verse because it schwartz.
[162:14]
Kevin Duda
He knows how to.
[162:14]
Matt Kauflick
It's the Andrew Lloyd Webber effect of that. Each verse is the same. It's just that the orchestration and the dynamics have changed a little bit. So you think it's a little different. Exactly. That's what. That's what Webber does, is that he orchestrates the fuck out of his music. Do you have any other composers that had a good freshman musical on Broadway? We already said those. Would you rather listen to Judi Dench's Folly Bergere or her addressing of Cats? Which one's shorter?
[162:39]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God. Exactly.
[162:41]
Matt Kauflick
No idea. Whichever one's shorter. Gillian, do you prefer the original Tommy Tune staging or the Laveau revival staging? Okay, I have something crazy to say.
[162:50]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[162:50]
Matt Kauflick
Before this week, I was gonna say Tommy Tune. After our viewing of the original and then my viewing of the Laveau one today, I'm gonna say La Veau.
[162:59]
Kevin Duda
I'm gonna be honest with you and tell you that I thought Tune directed and choreographed the original when he didn't. It was Tommy Walsh who did the musical staging.
[163:08]
Matt Kauflick
Yes, well, associate. Yeah. They.
[163:10]
Kevin Duda
They collaborated.
[163:12]
Matt Kauflick
They co choreographed the show, and Tommy directed.
[163:14]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[163:14]
Matt Kauflick
And that is because there was just no time for Tommy to do everything.
[163:18]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[163:18]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. And Tommy was. Tommy Walsh was also his collaborator for.
[163:21]
Kevin Duda
A lot of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[163:23]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's very. It's very Bob Avian, Michael Bennett.
[163:25]
Kevin Duda
I mean, listen, the. The. I didn't. I didn't think when we were. Because I hadn't. It's been a while since I've seen the original because. On bootleg, but I was surprised at how messy it was.
[163:37]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I think that's because it was a year into the run.
[163:39]
Kevin Duda
Okay, well. And that's why I would also vote with Lavo, because. Because they were. It's tighter.
[163:44]
Matt Kauflick
It is tight.
[163:44]
Kevin Duda
And shows these days are. Are tighter. I mean, this. This goes into a whole. This goes in a whole diatribe. I have about, like, why Chorus Line originally is an actual, like, messy show, and it should be a messy show because it's dancers, dancing things until you get to the line.
[163:57]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[163:58]
Kevin Duda
And how Bayork Lee and all those people brought it into this. This distinct, really well paced all. Exactly. Thing that Took all of the energy out of it. Enhanced revivals. I didn't feel that, though. About nine. In a way, that the messiness aided its storytelling.
[164:14]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. The original staging, with all the flair that it does have and the esotericism that it does have, it is a little bit of a. We're feeling our feelings and we're doing our thing. Like, it's. It's a little too. We are artists.
[164:28]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[164:29]
Matt Kauflick
And it's. There's so much gorgeous in. Is too wit. And there are things in the Tune staging that are better than the Lavo staging. I would argue. I think that how Tune and Walsh do Folly Berger in the original is better than how Lavo does it in the revival, if only for the Boa alone.
[164:48]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[164:50]
Matt Kauflick
Like. Yeah. I'll put it this way. There are pockets where I prefer what Tune and Walsh did.
[164:55]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[164:56]
Matt Kauflick
But the overall effect of the production, I think, was enhanced by the Laveau version.
[165:03]
Kevin Duda
Agreed.
[165:03]
Matt Kauflick
The biggest caveat I have is the accents. They don't need them.
[165:08]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[165:09]
Matt Kauflick
Just get rid of them. Especially because the whole point of casting Antonio Banderas is the reason why they cast Raul Julia is that they are foreign.
[165:17]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[165:18]
Matt Kauflick
And which gives them an exoticism if everyone else is American or American light. Right, right, right. So, you know, we just. We understand that they're in Italy. We just get it. It's also. It's a show. We just get it.
[165:32]
Kevin Duda
Also, like, do a word or here or there.
[165:34]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[165:34]
Kevin Duda
You know, like, just do a.
[165:36]
Matt Kauflick
Whenever. Whenever somebody says. Whenever somebody says a name.
[165:39]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[165:39]
Matt Kauflick
Do it. Do the Rachel Zegler on the west side Story press tour, which is. Whenever you say a name, that's when the accent comes in. And otherwise it's fine.
[165:45]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[165:45]
Matt Kauflick
So when Rachel would be like. So, you know, with my character, Maria. Well. And as you know, Ariana Dublov DeBose plays Anita.
[165:53]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[165:53]
Matt Kauflick
I'm like, okay, we are here. Yeah, just do that. Just do that. Or do. Or. Somewhere between that and Clara Johnson trying to speak Italian. And Piazza.
[166:06]
Kevin Duda
Somewhere.
[166:06]
Matt Kauflick
Somewhere in the middle there. Don't do the Jane Krakowski simple. These affairs that touch the heart.
[166:13]
Kevin Duda
It's too much.
[166:13]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[166:14]
Kevin Duda
Or the banana Convincing anybody. Yes.
[166:16]
Matt Kauflick
Urbaneti. Michelle does not distract me.
[166:19]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[166:21]
Matt Kauflick
Michelle does not distract me. Or the teacher. Goodwin water is fed by springs from somewhere deep. Deep. Your Europe's most exclusive. You don't need to do Linda Muggleston's. Your producer claims you haven't even started it. What are you doing here, Guido?
[166:42]
Kevin Duda
You know, that's so funny. I bifted. Bring it back to me. There was a funny Mormon story where we were doing the cast album and.
[166:48]
Matt Kauflick
Right. You were in the theater. Same theater.
[166:50]
Kevin Duda
We were in the same theater and we were doing the cast album. And I did Hitler in hell. And I did. I started a vault, you know, and we literally got through the whole thing. And Stephen Remus, like, cut the entire thing off. It was like, thanks for the German accent, Duda. And I was like, I haven't been doing it the whole time. And everyone was like, nope. And I was like, but Hitler's German. And they were like, we were waiting, honestly. Well, it doesn't take. Doesn't take. It couldn't take more than just a cast album that'll live on forever to make you make the right choices.
[167:20]
Matt Kauflick
That honestly sounds like how Arima should respond to it. Thanks for the German accent.
[167:24]
Kevin Duda
Thanks for the German accent, Duda. And I was like, oh, Jesus. Haven't done it yet. Nope. Haven't done it.
[167:29]
Matt Kauflick
We were waiting.
[167:30]
Kevin Duda
I was like, I was doing it on the inside.
[167:32]
Matt Kauflick
I thought I was doing it. Next question. Next question. Oh, someone was asking about the 82 Tonys. I'll get there. Lillian Montevecchi, Anita Morris. We discussed it. Gonna borrow some basic. Oh, gonna borrow some basic questions from the British Invasion series and the Sondheim series. What is a song you would cut or shorten from the show? I would shorten. Foley Bergera.
[167:51]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[167:52]
Matt Kauflick
Can you explain to me why Germans at the spa is in the show? No.
[167:56]
Kevin Duda
So that's funny. It's. This is the first time in watching it that I was like, wait, why is this here? And I was like, okay, so it's so. I feel in the sort of 70s, 80s of musical theater writing, there was a lot of, like, let's give this character a break, you know, ways of putting the show together. It also. We needed an up tempo. We need an up tempo at that moment. But it's just so darn long.
[168:21]
Matt Kauflick
It is. It's also a song that has nothing to do with Guido, which is correct in some ways. Is nice where you're like, oh, we have the women doing something that has nothing to do with him. But it's also like, if we're being correct to the viewpoint of this show, it's all got to be in his world. Yes. The only reason to keep it is that it's the beginning of the overture.
[168:39]
Kevin Duda
Right. Exactly right. But I also think. I'm sure Yeston has a story of like, oh, that's one of the first songs I wrote. And it was gonna go this different way. He was gonna make a German, you know, whatever document. I don't know, like, whatever.
[168:51]
Matt Kauflick
I'm sure there's also a historical context of like Germany, Italy.
[168:54]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Germans like vacationing in Italy.
[168:57]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. There's a. They have a line about that in the movie. It's like. It's one of the few lines that actually gets a laugh in the movie is when Penelope Cruz shows up at the station to be there with Guido and she's like, I haven't been here since I was a girl. You know, 20 years ago it was full of Germans. I saw that movie three times because I famously need to see movie musicals more than once to decide if they're good or not.
[169:16]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah, yeah.
[169:18]
Matt Kauflick
And. And all three times I saw nine. That line always got a laugh. And part of it's because it's funny and part of it is because Penelope Cruz is objectively the best thing in that movie. Correct her, I will say her Oscar nomination, in my opinion, well deserved. Yeah. Who would you cast in the show? Okay.
[169:32]
Kevin Duda
Oh, interesting.
[169:33]
Matt Kauflick
I don't know who I would cast, male wise.
[169:36]
Kevin Duda
I'd have to think about that. Gosh.
[169:44]
Matt Kauflick
Because they just did it at the Kennedy center and I really thought everyone was wrong for it.
[169:47]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[169:48]
Matt Kauflick
I actually thought also, didn't they make it?
[169:49]
Kevin Duda
Sorry.
[169:50]
Matt Kauflick
When they were like, oh, Elizabeth Stanley's in it. I'm like, oh, she'll be a fun Carla. And they're like, she's Louisa.
[169:54]
Kevin Duda
And I went, yeah, I know.
[169:55]
Matt Kauflick
Say what now?
[169:56]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, right, right. And I did see the clips from that. I was amazed that. Well, not amazed.
[170:01]
Matt Kauflick
Who did it was Andy Blankenbuehler.
[170:03]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[170:03]
Matt Kauflick
How he was able to find pop and locking in nine.
[170:05]
Kevin Duda
Correct. It became like a dance piece.
[170:08]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Having dancers during My husband makes movies is dumb.
[170:11]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[170:11]
Matt Kauflick
I think. Yeah. Well, let's just say it. It's.
[170:13]
Kevin Duda
It's not a good choice.
[170:14]
Matt Kauflick
I know. He's a three time.
[170:16]
Kevin Duda
It's different.
[170:16]
Matt Kauflick
It's different and it's wrong. It's different and it's wrong. You know, it's also different and wrong. Making Louise's final strip in Gypsy a dance piece. Also different and wrong. Oh, God. I'm just saying.
[170:29]
Kevin Duda
Here we are.
[170:30]
Matt Kauflick
And I'm not a fucking originalist.
[170:32]
Kevin Duda
Face a couple of silver spoons. Alright, Go ahead.
[170:34]
Matt Kauflick
What is that?
[170:35]
Kevin Duda
Silver spoons.
[170:36]
Matt Kauflick
I'm not an originalist. I'm not like it's got to be done like how it's like. Look at the fucking context.
[170:42]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[170:42]
Matt Kauflick
The whole point of Gypsy Rose Lee. Is that she was a. She took stripping in burlesque and made it an art form and made herself nationally famous. And her whole point was that she spoke to the audience. She led with intelligence and her vocabulary and her humor. And you're gonna take that away from her because you are like, well, Josephine Baker. And we have a black Louise.
[171:01]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[171:02]
Matt Kauflick
I'm like, okay, cool, Right? That's a post it note on the dramaturgy board.
[171:08]
Kevin Duda
She also took her mother's line and transformed it.
[171:11]
Matt Kauflick
She took her sister's line.
[171:12]
Kevin Duda
Her sister's line. Right. For her mother's line. For her sister and transformed it. Yes, yes, it's. God.
[171:19]
Matt Kauflick
I've already talked about this at this point, but I'll say it again because it needs to be said. I know that that section was not in the 1959 original staging. A lot of things weren't that are still in this revival. I don't know why they would cut it. When Rose, impulsively, through just sheer instincts, shouts to Louise from off stage, say something. And the first thing out of Louise's mouth is just, hello. And then realizes that they're all paying attention. She's like, oh. When I speak, they listen. And then she uses June's line, and because of her own intelligence is like, I think I can flip this on its head.
[171:51]
Kevin Duda
Yep. I'm gonna own them.
[171:53]
Matt Kauflick
And that is where she stops being meat behind a partition and she becomes in control.
[171:58]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[171:59]
Matt Kauflick
And they cut it, Kevin. They cut it.
[172:04]
Kevin Duda
I'm right here.
[172:05]
Matt Kauflick
I hate it. I hate things. Oh, stupid. Things are stupid. Like making my husband makes movies into a dance piece. I don't know. It's hard to say. Like, who I would want for Carl. Can we. You know what? Let's play. No, let's do this game. Throughout history, who we would cast.
[172:22]
Kevin Duda
Oh, that's even harder.
[172:24]
Matt Kauflick
Okay. Okay. If we're allowed to include dubbing, can I talk about who I would cast in a movie version of dubbing?
[172:30]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, of course.
[172:31]
Matt Kauflick
So Carla and Margaret.
[172:33]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[172:34]
Matt Kauflick
Around circuit. Cardinal Knowledge.
[172:37]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[172:37]
Matt Kauflick
Although she can. I think she can sing it. We'll have Marni Nixon do the high C at the end.
[172:41]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[172:44]
Matt Kauflick
Claudia. Audrey Hepburn, dubbed by Barbara Cook. I'm really thrilled with this. Yep. Actress as Louisa.
[172:56]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[172:59]
Matt Kauflick
Ann Bancroft, dubbed by Rosemary Clooney.
[173:01]
Kevin Duda
Oh, my God, I'm sorry.
[173:03]
Matt Kauflick
Am I fucking nailing this?
[173:04]
Kevin Duda
This is. Yes.
[173:10]
Matt Kauflick
And then. Yeah. You know who's. Who's original? Guido. Marcelo.
[173:15]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Marcello.
[173:16]
Matt Kauflick
Or no, actually. What? Fuck it. No, fuck it. Well, let's do Antonio. We're going. All throughout history, we're combining these things. It's all in my head. All right, Antonio's going to be my maguido. But Antonio, two years before doing it on Broadway, minus the Caesar. Cut. Lillian Lafleur. What about, like, Leslie Caron?
[173:38]
Kevin Duda
Julio Iglesias. If he could act.
[173:42]
Matt Kauflick
No, because he's too much of a bottom.
[173:48]
Kevin Duda
Heard.
[173:49]
Matt Kauflick
I guess he doesn't have lips that you want to kiss. He's got an ass you want to kiss.
[173:54]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah.
[173:55]
Matt Kauflick
And listen, I'm sure there are plenty of Guidos out there who you want to, you know, eat out, but it's got to start with the mouth.
[174:01]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[174:01]
Matt Kauflick
That's where he's pitching you.
[174:02]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[174:03]
Matt Kauflick
I maintain Leslie Caron around, like, maybe the 1980s is Lillian LaFleur. Okay, Mama. Who do you want as mama?
[174:13]
Kevin Duda
Diane Carroll would also be a fan. Fantastic. Lillian Liffler.
[174:16]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, yeah. Let's do her.
[174:17]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[174:18]
Matt Kauflick
Leslie Ugams.
[174:20]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God.
[174:22]
Matt Kauflick
Because. Can Diane Carroll get freaky enough?
[174:24]
Kevin Duda
The trouble with continuous.
[174:27]
Matt Kauflick
No, here's what it is. No, Leslie Ugams is Lillian, Diane Carroll is Stephanie.
[174:31]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah.
[174:31]
Matt Kauflick
Because Diane Carroll was on Dynasty, and Stephanie Necropoulos would be on Dynasty.
[174:35]
Kevin Duda
Dynasty, Correct.
[174:36]
Matt Kauflick
Okay, then you want Leslie Crow and his mama.
[174:38]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[174:38]
Matt Kauflick
And it doesn't matter if Mama's French and Guido is Spanish, but they're somehow in Italy. This is my world, damn it.
[174:44]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God.
[174:46]
Matt Kauflick
And I'll say it. I'm gonna keep. I'm gonna keep.
[174:48]
Kevin Duda
You're gonna keep Fergie.
[174:49]
Matt Kauflick
As. As. As Sarah. Gina. I thought she did a good job.
[174:53]
Kevin Duda
She was great.
[174:54]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, she was great, but let's get a better choreo for it.
[175:00]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[175:00]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[175:01]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[175:01]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I want. What do. I want to do the costumes. I want Edith Head to do the costumes. No, that. I'm gonna go weird. I want. Who's. What's. Who's the. Who did Dracula? Bram Stoker's Dracula. She won the Oscar for it. She. It's. It's. I'm gonna up her name. I know I am, but it's okay. You know what I'm talking. Bram Stoker's Dracula with white. With Winona Ryder and Gary Oldman. Yeah. Do you not remember those costumes?
[175:40]
Kevin Duda
No.
[175:41]
Matt Kauflick
They're some of the best costumes of all time.
[175:42]
Kevin Duda
I've never.
[175:43]
Matt Kauflick
Francis ford Coppola wanted 50% of the budget to just be the costumes. And he was like, the rest of it's going to be, like shadows and. And. And dark corners, like on a soundstage. And the studio was like, we are giving you 40American million dollars.
[175:58]
Kevin Duda
And he was like, we're giving you.
[176:00]
Matt Kauflick
40 million American dollars to make this movie. It's not just going to be costumes and shadows. You're gonna build sets and you're gonna like it. Where is it, Han? I gotta find. I gotta find the roles.
[176:13]
Kevin Duda
God, who else? But, you know, like, on that. On that. Like, on that token, who would be, like, the most incredible?
[176:23]
Matt Kauflick
Eiko Ishioka. Eiko Ishioka. That's who did the costumes for Dracula. She also did Spider Man. She did a whole bunch of other stuff. She did Mirror, Mirror and the Cell. She's who I'd want to do costumes for a movie version of Nine.
[176:35]
Kevin Duda
All right.
[176:36]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, all right. Okay.
[176:38]
Kevin Duda
We need it. We still need a better guido, though.
[176:40]
Matt Kauflick
You don't want Antonio.
[176:41]
Kevin Duda
Antonio.
[176:42]
Matt Kauflick
Okay, fine, fine. No, keep in mind you're allowed to dub, but you have to tell me who the singing voice is.
[176:47]
Kevin Duda
Okay? God. Pascal. Pedro.
[176:56]
Matt Kauflick
Pedro, Pascal.
[176:57]
Kevin Duda
Pedro, Pascal.
[176:58]
Matt Kauflick
Maybe I.
[177:03]
Kevin Duda
Why do we keep. Why do we keep choosing Latin men? For an Italian. For an Italian. Fine.
[177:07]
Matt Kauflick
No, I'm gonna. Fine. Fuck it. I'll go even ballsier. Tom Finney. Albert Finney circa Tom Jones. Oh, wow. Albert Phinney circa Tom Jones. Okay, with this dubbed by God, who's a good bariton? Brian Stokes Mitchell. There. There we go. There we go. We got it. We have our movie. And our lady is like.
[177:33]
Kevin Duda
We chose pieces of paper out of a grab bag.
[177:36]
Matt Kauflick
And our lady, the spa, is played by Jennifer Lopez. So she can come on on screen and go, every girl in Venice is in loving as an Uber.
[177:46]
Kevin Duda
And throw in two Spanish words.
[177:48]
Matt Kauflick
Yep. And Winona Ryder is going to be. Your producer claims you haven't even started it. All right, how would you personally rate the show from 1 to 10?
[177:57]
Kevin Duda
9.
[177:59]
Matt Kauflick
9. I think I'd rate the show on its own. An 8. With a great team and cast, it can get up to, like, a 99.5.
[178:10]
Kevin Duda
Agreed.
[178:10]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[178:11]
Kevin Duda
With some cuts, it could be. It could really score higher. It does need trims. And that's what I was telling you the other day was like. When we watched that, when we watched the Lincoln center, when we watched it, I was like, oh, this. I'm now in a place where I'm sitting and literally watching for research. And so I'm able to sort of discern the moment. So I'm like, oh, cut that, cut that, cut that. You know, we don't need that. We don't need that. And the show, what did the show run, like, 242. 245.
[178:35]
Matt Kauflick
No, no, because act one. Act. Act two is so short. Act one action runs about an hour and 20. Act two runs about 45.
[178:41]
Kevin Duda
Okay, okay.
[178:42]
Matt Kauflick
It's craziness.
[178:43]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[178:43]
Matt Kauflick
But. And I. I think I already said it on my cure, but I was so thrown with both productions that I watched that they clocked in it almost exactly the same. Considering that the revival cut Germans at the Spa, cut the Tarantella, and also felt like all the scenes and songs were going faster than the original.
[179:00]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[179:00]
Matt Kauflick
And yet it's still clocked in at the same time. I don't know how it happened.
[179:03]
Kevin Duda
Who's the music of the revival? Oh, Kevin Stites. Right. Did Stites music director revival? I think he did.
[179:08]
Matt Kauflick
I'm gonna say yes, I think he did. Who would be your dream director creative team for this show? I don't have one for none. I don't have a single director I would trust with this.
[179:18]
Kevin Duda
I. What would a. What would a Julie Taymor 9 look like?
[179:23]
Matt Kauflick
Insane, Right? Yeah.
[179:26]
Kevin Duda
But also, like, I would also. Six hours long.
[179:29]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I would be not having. So, okay, I will actually, I'll say this. With Kimberly Akimbo and Water for Elephants, I would be interested to see Jessica Stone.
[179:39]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, I would too. Yeah.
[179:40]
Matt Kauflick
Because with Kimberly Akimbo, she's proven she's great with actors and she can hone a script. And then Water for Elephants, she proved she has a visual imagination.
[179:47]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[179:47]
Matt Kauflick
I'm interested to see what she does with that.
[179:48]
Kevin Duda
I also think, listen, and this is, I mean, you know, I'd also love to see what like a Strowman could do with nine now that she sort of graduated to. Oh, no, not that.
[180:00]
Matt Kauflick
What Aerostromon now? Aero Strawman. No, no, the Strawman that's about to give us smash and just gave us Akrant Strowman. Phenomenal. Yes. Let's see what she could do. Yeah, yeah. Like not the woman who gave me left on 10th. No, no, not her. Next question as a potential answer to four is a Jamie. Is a Jamie Lloyd nine something? God, I hope not. Oh, no, that man does not, should not touch nine with a ten foot pole.
[180:24]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[180:25]
Matt Kauflick
You don't. You do not give nine to indulgent art artists.
[180:28]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[180:29]
Matt Kauflick
You give indulgent artists dumb and watch them make that dumb fun.
[180:33]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I would watch a musical of Jamie Lloyd making a musical of nine, though, because it ostensibly, it's the same thing.
[180:39]
Matt Kauflick
I would watch a Jamie Lloyd Paradise Square.
[180:42]
Kevin Duda
Yes, yes.
[180:43]
Matt Kauflick
That's why I'm enjoying. His son said. I'm like, give Me, a musical I give less than two shits about.
[180:47]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[180:47]
Matt Kauflick
And give it to Jamie. Give it to Jamie Lloyd to fuck it up the ass. Yeah, Yeah, I will watch that.
[180:52]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[180:52]
Matt Kauflick
But no, don't give him something I think is actually solid. Right. Cloud nine has. Have Cloud nine have worked if they didn't. Could nine have. Sorry. Could nine have worked if they didn't do the. All the numbers or in Guido's head approach. We already talked about that. Yep, that's it. Those are all the questions from the Discord. We'll do one more break and then we're gonna talk about the moment. You were ballsy. Yeah. I'm gonna talk a little bit about the origins of how the show actually even fucking happened. So let's take that last break with you.
[181:20]
Kevin Duda
How do you mean? You're the top.
[181:21]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[181:22]
Kevin Duda
You're an Arrow caller. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar.
[181:35]
Matt Kauflick
And we're back. Okay, so the story of how nine came to be in, like, the whole battle with Dream Girls is pretty, like Broadway famous.
[181:44]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[181:44]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. 9v Dream Girls. There's. There are certain Tony years where it's always like, okay, which one? Are you sure? Nine v Dreamgirls? Grand Hotel v. City of Angels. Ironically, both Tommy 2 and Moriestin shows.
[181:56]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[181:57]
Matt Kauflick
There are a couple other ones. I'm always. I'm usually the underdog boy. So when people are like, Avenue Qv. Wicked. I'm like, Caroline.
[182:04]
Kevin Duda
Well, correct. Right, Exactly. Right, Right.
[182:07]
Matt Kauflick
I'm. I'm. Grey Gardens versus Spring Awakening. Sure. Trying to think what are like some other really big, like, going head to headers.
[182:14]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God.
[182:16]
Matt Kauflick
Oh. Like Sunday v La Cage, into the Woods v. Titanic. No, that was Ragtime, Ragtime, Ragtime Lion King. Yeah, that was Titanic. Viva Life, which was more like.
[182:27]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yeah.
[182:28]
Matt Kauflick
That was everyone going. Yeah, that was people going, we like the life on paper.
[182:32]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Right, right.
[182:33]
Matt Kauflick
But then we saw it and we really can't defend it. Correct. And then Titanic was then being like, well, there's not a lot to hate here. Yeah.
[182:42]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[182:42]
Matt Kauflick
There's not much to love, but there's not enough to hate.
[182:45]
Kevin Duda
Then the night. The night that you went, did the set work. That was the biggest thing.
[182:49]
Matt Kauflick
Listen, Titanic deserved to win best musical that year for Vicky Clark's first class passenger roster.
[182:54]
Kevin Duda
Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.
[182:55]
Matt Kauflick
She must be somebody. No one really knows who she is. But so, like, there are other ones as well. Chorus Line versus Chicago.
[183:03]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[183:05]
Matt Kauflick
Nine versus Dream Girls is probably the number one because there's. There's strength in both answers.
[183:13]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[183:13]
Matt Kauflick
And there's. There are flaws in both answers.
[183:17]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[183:17]
Matt Kauflick
Neither show is perfect.
[183:18]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[183:19]
Matt Kauflick
And I think they actually have a lot of the same strengths. It's like they both have scores that. Fuck. They both are famous for their design and their staging.
[183:28]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[183:28]
Matt Kauflick
And their central performances.
[183:29]
Kevin Duda
Iconic. Right.
[183:30]
Matt Kauflick
And they both are clocked for the second act. Falling apart.
[183:32]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[183:33]
Matt Kauflick
One has a slightly better movie than the other, I would argue. Not as good as people like to pretend it is, but it is better than the other.
[183:40]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[183:42]
Matt Kauflick
So with Nine. So Dream Girls obviously, like, comes into town that December of 81, and it's a big old titty hit.
[183:49]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[183:49]
Matt Kauflick
And nine was. They sort of threw together this workshop around the same time that Dream Girls opens. They do it on the roof of the New Amsterdam Theater.
[183:57]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[183:58]
Matt Kauflick
And they do the presentation for the Shuberts and the Nederlanders and Paramount. Paramount backs out, but Fellini gives the okay on the rights. And they replace the book writer. They replace the book writer.
[184:13]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[184:15]
Matt Kauflick
And the Nederlanders come in and take it. And they are able to raise enough money by, like, late February, early March, And Whorehouse just closed at the 46th Street Theater. And they're like, we don't have enough money to go out of town. We have just enough money to open. So they're coming in. And word from the workshop is like, nine's good. Yeah, it's not great. It's good. But the thing is that the only other two shows that year were Punt Boys and Dinettes.
[184:46]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[184:46]
Matt Kauflick
That classic. And Joseph, which was everyone sort of being like, okay, yeah, like, Evita was a hit and everyone was okay with it. And Joseph was sort of like, the Andrew Lloyd Rubber's not a threat. It's fine. This is cute.
[185:01]
Kevin Duda
Let him run.
[185:02]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly Right. But then what? Something happened on Broadway, which is known as the Great Broadway massacre of 81 or 82, where they tore down, like, five Broadway theaters to build the Marriott Hotel. And they were all Shubert theaters.
[185:19]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[185:20]
Matt Kauflick
So the Shuberts were Persona non grata in the theater community, and nobody was liking how cocky they were being about Dreamgirls being the hit and being the front runner. So Nine opens to respectful reviews. Not rave reviews, but respectful reviews. And, like, that press team was working their asses off to get it out there.
[185:39]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[185:39]
Matt Kauflick
There's a story in the book, in Michael Riedel's book of how, like, they had, like, they. They basically, before even they moved into the theater, they're like, we need to start promoting this thing now. We've got 21 women who are all fuckable and like, we're gonna get them in costume, we're gonna photograph them. And Tommy Toon's like, willie maivy Long hasn't even finished. Finished sketching. Yeah. And the producer, like, they go into like, not Joanne, but like a bar. And she drops down like the one the publicist drops down, like 21 cocktail napkins. And she's like, draw. And really might be Long finishes them all that night. She's like, now. So went to the photo shoot two weeks. That's not enough time. Make it enough time. It's like, it was, it's very like this old school Broadway. Like we there. You have no choice.
[186:20]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[186:21]
Matt Kauflick
And it was his first Broadway gig.
[186:22]
Kevin Duda
We've got the Barn. Yeah, get the, get the trunk.
[186:26]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. It was. It's. It's Mickey saying the barn is open and Judy's being like, but I'm not ready. Like, well, then get ready. I love it. I love that kind of shit.
[186:34]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[186:35]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's trial by fire. And so they get all the costumes. It's all done. They do a 23 hour photo shoot. The. Oh, but they didn't have Anita Morris's costume yet, so they just had like a glamour shot of her. Of course they post these, the photos of all these women across the theater. The story goes is that the day the photos went up, there was a traffic jam on 46th street because all of the delivery drivers kept stopping by the theater as they were driving to see them.
[186:58]
Kevin Duda
Amazing.
[186:58]
Matt Kauflick
I love it. But so they, they opened the show after like two weeks of previews. They joked like the paint was still wet. When Frank Rich came to see the show, you could smell the fumes. They opened as respectful. They also opened the night before the Tony nominations. So they open on May 9, the last, absolute last day of eligibility. So they're already making headlines of like the last show of this, of the year. Nominations come out the next day. I think they tied with Dreamgirls for nominations. And again the Shuberts and Dream Girls are walking around all Tony season going, we're winning. It's us, it's us, it's us. And because they're like, we gave you the hit of the year.
[187:36]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[187:36]
Matt Kauflick
Aren't you thrilled?
[187:37]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[187:38]
Matt Kauflick
And nine is like, come on. Yeah, you like us. And like pulling all these stunts and like, just flare upon flare upon flare. And ultimately the two things that did it in were the Shuberts having a helping hand in the Broadway massacre and the idea of Voting for the show that you think doesn't have a shot.
[187:59]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[188:00]
Matt Kauflick
It is.
[188:00]
Kevin Duda
That needs that, that needs the Tony to, to maintain it is always my.
[188:04]
Matt Kauflick
It's the thing I've said of like, if enough people think to themselves, everyone's voting for Dream Girls. I'm gonna vote for 9. I liked it more.
[188:11]
Kevin Duda
Sure, sure.
[188:12]
Matt Kauflick
That's. That's how Anthony Hopkins beats Chadwick Boseman at the Oscars.
[188:16]
Kevin Duda
Right, right. Is the tale of like everyone's gonna do this, so why my vote won't count.
[188:22]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly.
[188:22]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[188:23]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's the tale of Ruthie and Miles winning for King and I.
[188:27]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[188:27]
Matt Kauflick
When she was, when she was dubbed, like fourth on the list of like of likelihood.
[188:32]
Kevin Duda
Right?
[188:33]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, yeah. And that's ultimately what happened. They split the diff. And listen, Dream Girl still kind of walks away with a four year run and the multiple national tours and like honestly the bigger Broadway legacy. But Nine has the Tony and that's, that's the 82 discussion of like it is about. There is a lot of campaigning in it. There is a lot, lot of likability in it. It's rare when a show is just so undeniably good that you have to.
[188:56]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[188:56]
Matt Kauflick
There have been years.
[188:57]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah. I didn't know all that. I didn't. You just. I just was silent because I didn't know all the.
[189:03]
Matt Kauflick
Oh really?
[189:03]
Kevin Duda
No, Yeah. I mean I didn't know all the. I didn't know the sort of triangle effect of all those things happening at the same time. Yeah, yeah. All of it all makes sense.
[189:10]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. And if you watch the Tonys, there are two specific things that give you clues into all this. One is one of the presenters is presenting the word and you hear like a little boom in the back and he goes, he does a jolt and he's like, don't tell me they're tearing this one down too and gets a huge. Yeah.
[189:25]
Kevin Duda
Oh, hilarious.
[189:25]
Matt Kauflick
And then they get to director of a musical and the guy's opening the envelope and you can't hear it, but someone in the audience shouts dreamgirls. And so the presenter is responding, goes, dream Girls, big mouth on you. But you don't hear the person saying it. So you just hear him say Dreamgirls for a second, but he's not announcing it. He's like, dream Girls, big mouth on you. But then he opens it and goes 9. So hahahaha.
[189:47]
Kevin Duda
Interesting.
[189:48]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Because the way it went was Dreamgirls won lighting, choreography, actor, actress, supporting actress and book.
[189:57]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[189:58]
Matt Kauflick
A 9:1 director, featured actress, costumes and score.
[190:03]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[190:03]
Matt Kauflick
So Dream Girls had two more than nine before they got to Best musical. So, like, in a way, it looked like Dreamgirls had it locked. But that's where I'm like, it's. It's very rare when a musical wins director and score and not musical.
[190:20]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[190:21]
Matt Kauflick
I think I can count on one hand, one hand, the number of shows that have won score and book and director and not Best musical. I'm pretty sure I'm just talking year in town.
[190:35]
Kevin Duda
Oh, interesting. Yeah.
[190:37]
Matt Kauflick
There have been a couple times where score and book have been one. But not musical.
[190:40]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[190:40]
Matt Kauflick
That's when. When stuff's happened. This year, yes, I did. I did a Tony episode.
[190:44]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[190:45]
Matt Kauflick
Everyone's like, how could you inscure in brick but not musical? And I'm like, oh, how little our memories are. It's happened before.
[190:54]
Kevin Duda
It's happened many times. Yeah. Yeah.
[190:56]
Matt Kauflick
Falsettos v. Crazy for you.
[190:57]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right.
[190:59]
Matt Kauflick
Ragtime v. Lion King.
[191:00]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[191:01]
Matt Kauflick
Parade v. Fosse. Urinetown v. Millie. Drowsy v. Chaperone. Drowsy Chaperon v. Jersey Boys. I have more. I have more on the 20th century V. Ain't Misbehavin. This is just off the top of my head.
[191:16]
Kevin Duda
Oh, my God.
[191:16]
Matt Kauflick
I know. I'm crazy. Woods v. Phantom.
[191:19]
Kevin Duda
Whoa.
[191:22]
Matt Kauflick
There's definitely one more, and I can't think of it. Why.
[191:28]
Kevin Duda
Impressive, though.
[191:29]
Matt Kauflick
Thank you.
[191:29]
Kevin Duda
Very impressive.
[191:30]
Matt Kauflick
Thank you. And then there also shows for, like, that split score in book and something else. One musical. Yeah, it's like Secret Garden and Will Rogers Folly split book and score, and then. Oh, sorry, no, I take that back. That was one Will Rogers Folly's one musical, but Piazza wins score. Spelling bee wins book. Spamalot wins musical, but Spamalot also won director.
[191:50]
Kevin Duda
Right. Yes.
[191:51]
Matt Kauflick
Well, that whole thing was dumb. Shouldn't have won either. We know this. Nichols knew that.
[191:56]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[191:56]
Matt Kauflick
He even said so to speech. He was like, this is a career award, and I will take it as far as I can run with it.
[192:01]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[192:02]
Matt Kauflick
Which wasn't far. He died five years later. No, eight years later.
[192:06]
Kevin Duda
Good documentary on him, though.
[192:08]
Matt Kauflick
Great book on him.
[192:08]
Kevin Duda
Great book on him.
[192:09]
Matt Kauflick
Fucking love that book by Tony Kushner's husband. My Lord. No. Mike Nichols is amazing. And I. I just. Because he would have found it funny.
[192:15]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[192:17]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Those are all the discord things. I guess. Now's the moment where we mention Kevin's balls.
[192:26]
Kevin Duda
Oh.
[192:27]
Matt Kauflick
Oh.
[192:28]
Kevin Duda
Drop hanging out. So. Yeah, so I. So I told you the story, and it was after I. I was invited. I don't even Know how I was invited to a screening of Nine at. It was at the, it was on Broadway at the, the Paramount building. And some, some reason I got invited to a screen, a screening of Nine and we all showed up there and we all just signed these. Sign these, you know, non disclosures or whatever they were. And we all walked in and we. I was so excited because it was, you know, one of my favorite musicals, if not the. And so I sat down and the thing started and at the end of the movie, I remember we sort of like, I was like, oh, that was not good. But then the lights came up and there was Harvey Weinstein and Rob Marshall and they had walked in or they maybe actually, you know what it was. Someone at the front was like. It wasn't like they were there there. It wasn't like they just appeared. Someone was like, ladies and gentlemen, hope you enjoyed it. We're actually going to do a talk back now and we want to hear your thoughts because we're still in the edit. And it was either that person that said it or they introduced Harvey and they introduced Rob. And then maybe Rob was like, I really very much interested in, you know, your reactions. And so one person was like, I didn't understand the scene where so and so happened or, you know, whatever, or like. Or I didn't like the scene on the Italian coast because the collars looked up, you know, whatever they were turning, trying to get specific. And I raised my hand. I was like, you should cut the scene with the Pope. It just doesn't work. I don't understand why you have it in there at all. And Rob Marshall was speechless. I mean, they were like, okay, thank you so much. Thank you. Like, it was almost like they wanted to hear praise questions, like, I really loved what you did with that scene. Like, you know, more of that as opposed to like, why would you, why would you put a scene with the Pope in the actual thing? Like, that doesn't make. Make any sense. It's not, it's not part of the show. Not part of his show at all, really. It's a blip on the radio in the, in the musical.
[194:25]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. And the tone of it in the musical is so much more different. And they even cut the final line. That is the whole purpose of it, right? Where he says, like, I feel like I see the devil everywhere. And he goes, well, my son, if you see the devil there, that means you have as equal a chance of seeing an angel.
[194:41]
Kevin Duda
Right? Right? And it's wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
[194:45]
Matt Kauflick
Just, just is yeah, well, also like. But again, when you. If you. If you get a chance to watch the original, it is done very oddly. It's not done like the Pope scene. The pope scene, yeah.
[194:56]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Right.
[194:57]
Matt Kauflick
It's not done in like super comical way. It gets a laugh with the try harder line. But ultimately what it is, is like it. The stage is dark with a spotlight on. Reload Julia with his alien face.
[195:07]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[195:08]
Matt Kauflick
Doing both voices. And when he's doing the Pope, he's doing this like Linda Blair in Exorcist whisper.
[195:13]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, I know. Yeah. I don't love that.
[195:15]
Matt Kauflick
It's creepy. It's very creepy. And then Antonio Banderas, he's doing it back and forth with this plastic chair and it's played slightly for laughs, but it's not super comical. He has a couple lines. It's more about the inner conflict of him. As you said. Part of. You could question, is this even happening? Because the lady of the spa is also. Is like, in a weird way, you could argue if she's even real or not. She's talking to the audience. But is she just like a manifestation of everyone there, of what's being said there?
[195:44]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[195:44]
Matt Kauflick
Of the. Of the legacy of the spot in general and is just sort of our conduit. Yeah. Our liaison.
[195:51]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[195:52]
Matt Kauflick
Into. Into this part of. Of his life of just like giving up. Giving us exposition in a way that is Fellini esque.
[195:59]
Kevin Duda
Right, right. Or, you know, and. And then on top of that, is every woman in this show just a physical manifestation of what he thinks other.
[196:08]
Matt Kauflick
People want from him or how he imagines other people to be?
[196:12]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[196:12]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[196:13]
Kevin Duda
Right, right.
[196:14]
Matt Kauflick
All of the fans, all of the enemies, all of the lovers.
[196:16]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[196:17]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[196:17]
Kevin Duda
Because he loves it. He. He's. He's that person we all hate in life who's like, don't make me sing. You know, but. But here I am.
[196:24]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[196:24]
Kevin Duda
You know.
[196:25]
Matt Kauflick
Well, it's. It's the. I don't want this job, but why don't you want me to have it?
[196:30]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Right, right, right, right.
[196:31]
Matt Kauflick
It's. It's the. It's my joke about gay men, which is that I don't like you and I've never liked you and I will never like you. But you like me, right?
[196:42]
Kevin Duda
Oh, gay men.
[196:43]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, gay men. I was like.
[196:45]
Kevin Duda
And I do. Matthew.
[196:46]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, can you. Welcome. Thank you so much.
[196:49]
Kevin Duda
You're welcome.
[196:50]
Matt Kauflick
Who would you cast me as a nine if we were. If we were to do a gay nine, which is just 9.75.
[197:00]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I.
[197:02]
Matt Kauflick
Nine and three fingers.
[197:03]
Kevin Duda
I feel like I'm gonna cut that off. I feel like. I feel like I'd want to see a bunch of different things from you. I'd want to see your. Your Carla for sure. Like, it would be fun. You would just. You'd be really funny as it. But I ultimately think that you are a Claudia, I guess.
[197:22]
Matt Kauflick
I think I project Claudia to people who don't know me, and then they get to know me and they're like, are you actually just Lillian LaFleur in the body of a Louisa, which is uncastable? But I have the voice of a Claudia. I do have the voice of a fucking angel. I sing very nicely.
[197:43]
Kevin Duda
You do. You also have that, like. You also have that quiet, calm strength that she had. That. That. That is needed for someone in that. In that. You know, in that chair.
[197:53]
Matt Kauflick
Listen, if Benanti will give me that white coat, I'll fucking do it. Actually, no, that's a fun one. I want to do this as a fun exercise with. This will never happen.
[198:03]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[198:03]
Matt Kauflick
It should never happen. It goes against the whole point of the show.
[198:06]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[198:07]
Matt Kauflick
Of who are women? What are women to any. To men and women. And what are. And you know, what is it that men think women are at all?
[198:14]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[198:15]
Matt Kauflick
But let's do a gender reverse nine, because I want it. And this is my podcast.
[198:21]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[198:22]
Matt Kauflick
So let's talk about walking charisma, sexboy energy for a woman. Is that like a Jen Colella energy? But not Jen Colella, because I don't think she's correct.
[198:36]
Kevin Duda
Let's see. How about. I mean, Sarah Gettlefinger in the day sure would have been. Sorry, Sarah. I don't mean in the day in.
[198:48]
Matt Kauflick
The day, but you know what we mean.
[198:49]
Kevin Duda
I know what you mean.
[198:50]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Like, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. You know who I want?
[198:56]
Kevin Duda
Who?
[198:57]
Matt Kauflick
Heather Headley.
[199:00]
Kevin Duda
Well, on in that realm. How about Sharon Renee Scott? Like, I mean, Sherry Scott would.
[199:04]
Matt Kauflick
I was thinking Sherry, too. I didn't know. I didn't know if I was allowed to say.
[199:07]
Kevin Duda
She's strong. No, she's strong. She's sexy. She's got the hoods, but she's also got the. She can play a lot. I would think. I would think she would be fantastic.
[199:16]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I think it. If you're good. If we're good. Okay. This is what I'm doing for our. For our gender bank casting.
[199:20]
Kevin Duda
Great.
[199:21]
Matt Kauflick
Whoever we cast as our female guido, we have to be able to clock three women roles they could have played at some point in their careers in the show. Yeah. So like with Sherry, obviously. Like Louisa at one point. I think she could have been a Carla early in her career.
[199:37]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[199:37]
Matt Kauflick
A Stephanie Necropolis.
[199:39]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[199:39]
Matt Kauflick
She's currently in her Lily and Lafleur era of like, fuck around and find out.
[199:42]
Kevin Duda
Yep.
[199:43]
Matt Kauflick
She's. She doesn't have a soprano, but, like 10, 20 years from now. Could have been Mama if she. If she wanted to. She doesn't have the notes, but you know what I mean, like, has that energy. Heather, I think, is a Louisa. Stephanie Necropolis even. I'll fucking say it. Like, if we're doing a Jamie Lloyd production. A Claudia.
[200:00]
Kevin Duda
Oh, sure.
[200:00]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Her. My House from Matilda is fucking stunning. And everyone should listen to it at some point. Okay, so between Heather and Sherry, it's the Aida gals. Which of them?
[200:10]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I still choose Sherry.
[200:13]
Matt Kauflick
Okay.
[200:13]
Kevin Duda
We'll do Sheri because I feel like she has a more. I've seen more shades from her.
[200:17]
Matt Kauflick
Okay.
[200:18]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[200:18]
Matt Kauflick
So then let's cast our boys.
[200:20]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[200:23]
Matt Kauflick
Louisa.
[200:25]
Kevin Duda
Gosh. Okay. Louise is going to be strong. Has a. Has a loyalty.
[200:36]
Matt Kauflick
I dropped in this.
[200:38]
Kevin Duda
Yes. How about, like.
[200:43]
Matt Kauflick
What do we think of, like, a Santino?
[200:45]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, I think. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I would go with that.
[200:48]
Matt Kauflick
Do you want to go with that or is that like our jumping off point?
[200:49]
Kevin Duda
Point.
[200:52]
Matt Kauflick
Gosh. Who else?
[200:53]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I'm trying to think of, like. Like Clena sort of has like a.
[200:59]
Matt Kauflick
Is he old enough for that yet?
[201:00]
Kevin Duda
No, maybe not. Maybe not.
[201:02]
Matt Kauflick
Well, that's. That's what I think.
[201:03]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[201:03]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[201:04]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[201:05]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, yeah. Sherry's our Guido. Yeah.
[201:07]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[201:08]
Matt Kauflick
But let's. Okay. Sherry's playing. Let's say she's playing 40.
[201:11]
Kevin Duda
40.
[201:12]
Matt Kauflick
40. 40 to 48.
[201:13]
Kevin Duda
48.
[201:14]
Matt Kauflick
40 to 48.
[201:15]
Kevin Duda
What a span.
[201:16]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, that's the other thing is, like, we have to remember that Guido's supposed to be 40.
[201:21]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Correct. And we can't cast this with 20s, is that what you're saying? Yeah.
[201:26]
Matt Kauflick
She can listen, though. She can have a 29 year old, Carla.
[201:30]
Kevin Duda
She can.
[201:31]
Matt Kauflick
Absolutely.
[201:31]
Kevin Duda
I mean, where does John Groff fit?
[201:34]
Matt Kauflick
Groff is probably a Claudia.
[201:35]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[201:36]
Matt Kauflick
I would say that no person exists. That's. That's what he would say as Claudia. No such person exists. He's either. Yeah. No, that he's. He's Claudia, which makes me our lady of the spa.
[201:50]
Kevin Duda
Done.
[201:51]
Matt Kauflick
And I would say, Carla, this is.
[201:59]
Kevin Duda
Tough because, like, I don't know, like.
[202:02]
Matt Kauflick
Well, because. Because what we're doing is we're taking men and repurposing them. I understand for. No, but what I'm saying This is why it's tough, though.
[202:10]
Kevin Duda
Right, Right, right. Because we're boiling down men to characteristics where we only actually boil down women to. In casting.
[202:17]
Matt Kauflick
Yes.
[202:18]
Kevin Duda
And I'm not saying I do that. I'm just saying, like, as a. As a society, that's how we do it.
[202:22]
Matt Kauflick
But this is. This is the first. This is the first step towards progress, Kevin, is us doing this.
[202:26]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[202:26]
Matt Kauflick
I hope everyone at Telsey is listening to this right fucking now. I hope they are. And I hope that they remember this when they start recasting Wicked in the future.
[202:36]
Kevin Duda
So how about, like, I feel like Carla's got to be, like, our favorite ensemble guy who hasn't gotten a shot, but who's built like a brick house, totally sexy and. No, yeah, no, I'm saying, like.
[202:49]
Matt Kauflick
I'm not saying, like, is that a Clayton or is that a. Oh, yeah, that would be, like a Casey Garvin or.
[202:55]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah. I would go for either one of those.
[202:57]
Matt Kauflick
I don't really know either of them as an individual performer. I know them as social media, and I know that they dance.
[203:05]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Clay would be. Clayton would be fun.
[203:07]
Matt Kauflick
Max Clayton.
[203:08]
Kevin Duda
Max Clayton. Yeah.
[203:09]
Matt Kauflick
Okay. Max Clayton is Carla, then, or also.
[203:11]
Kevin Duda
Who's the. Who's the guy who was. Who was in the company revival? Who was. Oh, gosh.
[203:18]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, Clayborne Elder.
[203:18]
Kevin Duda
Claybourn Elder. Yeah.
[203:20]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, he's him. Yeah, Yeah. I think part of me wants someone who's, like, super toned, but, like, I. I party wants that the needle more is, like, limberiness.
[203:29]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[203:30]
Matt Kauflick
True. And I'm sure that Clayborne is. I. Just because Marian Elliott didn't have him do the splits doesn't mean he can't. Clayborne could do it.
[203:38]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, right, right.
[203:39]
Matt Kauflick
And I think. Yeah, I think I'll. I'm gonna go with Clayborne just because I'm a little more familiar with his individual personality than I am with Max.
[203:45]
Kevin Duda
Sure.
[203:47]
Matt Kauflick
But, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, Mama. I'm gonna say.
[203:57]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God.
[203:57]
Matt Kauflick
George Hearn. Is he still alive?
[203:59]
Kevin Duda
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[204:01]
Matt Kauflick
Okay. No, I take it back.
[204:02]
Kevin Duda
Too much. Too much.
[204:03]
Matt Kauflick
I take it back. I'm sorry, Michael. Rupert. No, I take it back. Stephen Bogardus. Now I'm just going through the falsettos, men.
[204:09]
Kevin Duda
Cerberus would be a decent, like, kind of mutt, like, figure that we gotta recast.
[204:15]
Matt Kauflick
Sherry.
[204:16]
Kevin Duda
I know. That's true. That's true, girl.
[204:18]
Matt Kauflick
Like, then we gotta go 10 years younger.
[204:19]
Kevin Duda
Yeah. Okay, okay. How about at this point, we might.
[204:26]
Matt Kauflick
As well just have qcp.
[204:32]
Kevin Duda
God.
[204:32]
Matt Kauflick
Victor Garber.
[204:33]
Kevin Duda
I will take. Yes, I'll take a Victor.
[204:35]
Matt Kauflick
Okay. Victor Garber is Mama.
[204:37]
Kevin Duda
Great. Louisa.
[204:40]
Matt Kauflick
Well, we said sent.
[204:41]
Kevin Duda
Oh, we said Santino.
[204:42]
Matt Kauflick
Did we? But we didn't lock that in. That was more like think Santino.
[204:46]
Kevin Duda
Right, right, right, right.
[204:49]
Matt Kauflick
Opposite Sherry. Nick Christopher. Because he's playing opposite to her now. Norbert.
[204:56]
Kevin Duda
What about.
[204:56]
Matt Kauflick
Oh, no, I know. It's too on the nose.
[205:00]
Kevin Duda
I'm cheating.
[205:01]
Matt Kauflick
You cheat.
[205:02]
Kevin Duda
I'm old. I need to look at people I know.
[205:04]
Matt Kauflick
I hear you, baby.
[205:05]
Kevin Duda
Oh, Lord. How about. What about, like, do we think Josh Henry is too.
[205:19]
Matt Kauflick
He's a little too forceful for me for that. Like. No, you know, it is. It's Brian D'Arcy James.
[205:26]
Kevin Duda
There you go.
[205:27]
Matt Kauflick
That's great. That's. That's our Louisa.
[205:29]
Kevin Duda
That's great.
[205:29]
Matt Kauflick
And age appropriate for Sherry.
[205:31]
Kevin Duda
That's great. Love it.
[205:33]
Matt Kauflick
I would actually have Joshua Henry as Sarah Gina. Because I think he would sing the fucking Jesus out of. Of Be Italian.
[205:40]
Kevin Duda
How about Ben Walker? Is he old enough to be Sherry Renee Scott's husband? Ben Walker. He was American Psycho. Yeah.
[205:49]
Matt Kauflick
Not husband. No.
[205:53]
Kevin Duda
He's almost more a Claudia than anything.
[205:55]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, he's 10 years ago. I say 10 years ago, he's a Claudia.
[205:59]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[206:00]
Matt Kauflick
Like I'm trying to think of a Saragina and a Lillian Lafleu. We don't want Josh Henry for Saraghin. Okay. That's no racist.
[206:09]
Kevin Duda
Josh Henry could be. Josh Henry could be. No.
[206:14]
Matt Kauflick
Stephanie Necropolis.
[206:15]
Kevin Duda
No, Everyone's Stephanie. Everyone who we can't cast is Stephanie Acropolis.
[206:19]
Matt Kauflick
He can't be Our lady of the spot because that's me.
[206:21]
Kevin Duda
Correct.
[206:23]
Matt Kauflick
He can be. He can be the blonde woman who goes. Does your wife know you're traveling with this woman? That's Joshua.
[206:32]
Kevin Duda
How about. How about like a Christian Borrell? As. As a. As a Lillian LeFleur.
[206:39]
Matt Kauflick
I was thinking Christian or even Norbert.
[206:41]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[206:42]
Matt Kauflick
Or no. No. You know what I want? I want him to channel his Adolfo energy again and get Danny bursting.
[206:48]
Kevin Duda
Perfect. I love it. I'm sold.
[206:50]
Matt Kauflick
But he has to be in his Adolfo wing.
[206:51]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Done. Done. I love that idea.
[206:55]
Matt Kauflick
We forget how funny that man is. Adolfo is incredible. Correct.
[207:00]
Kevin Duda
I went to an Equity Awards event where he hosted, and it was probably the stand up of the century. It was like the best thing ever.
[207:07]
Matt Kauflick
He's amazing.
[207:07]
Kevin Duda
He's so fun.
[207:08]
Matt Kauflick
He's amazing. And just. Just about everything he does.
[207:12]
Kevin Duda
Everything. Yeah.
[207:13]
Matt Kauflick
Just about everything.
[207:14]
Kevin Duda
Okay, Heard.
[207:16]
Matt Kauflick
Okay, so we just have a Sarah.
[207:18]
Kevin Duda
We have just Sarah. Geena. I wonder.
[207:22]
Matt Kauflick
I want someone Rich in. In energy and voice and body.
[207:28]
Kevin Duda
Well, also, like, that is the perfect casting as we're looking at dei. Like, that would be the perfect casting for someone who is non gender conforming as well.
[207:36]
Matt Kauflick
Sure. You know, Jay would be wonderful.
[207:39]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Yes.
[207:41]
Matt Kauflick
Although, again, does Jay give Earth Mother or does Jay give cloudmother? I feel like Jay's very much like a. I'm gonna sit on this cloud and let you do your business.
[207:51]
Kevin Duda
Yes. And look. Yeah, yeah. True.
[207:53]
Matt Kauflick
Not looking down more just sort of like, I'm. I'm tired and busy.
[207:56]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[207:59]
Matt Kauflick
Jay's very pick on the hand. Flying out and serving you the lightest pizza roll. It's a. That's right. If Mary Stuart Masterson's very big on the. Like, I'm jerking off the air as I sing because I don't know what to do with my hands. Jay Harrison G. Is. Is. I'm serving you a light little pizza roll as icing. But I'm.
[208:16]
Kevin Duda
I just recast you as Stephanie Necropolis.
[208:18]
Matt Kauflick
No, I'm Our lady of the.
[208:20]
Kevin Duda
Sorry.
[208:21]
Matt Kauflick
That's fine.
[208:21]
Kevin Duda
Okay.
[208:22]
Matt Kauflick
That's fine.
[208:22]
Kevin Duda
I think you're Our lady of the Spa.
[208:23]
Matt Kauflick
If it means I get to be in a number with Dani, I'll do it.
[208:25]
Kevin Duda
Brooks Ashmanskas is Stephanie Necropoulos.
[208:28]
Matt Kauflick
Brooks Ashmanskas is Our lady of the Spa. As Our lady of the Spa, Brooks Ashmanskis is. What are you doing here, Guido? You know that I've listened to that album so much because I know those ensemble women's voices like the back of my head, and to the point that I. I had a recent listen because I know that ensemble is stacked of talent.
[208:47]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[208:47]
Matt Kauflick
And one of the Guido Cantinis. And not since Charlie Chaplin. I went, I'm pretty sure that's Elena Shadow. And I barely know Elena as a human being.
[208:57]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[208:57]
Matt Kauflick
We are Instagram friends who met for the first time at the lachiusa Workshop back in October. And it was a very lovely time. She's beautiful. And we got along famously. I didn't have the guts to tell her this, that, like, two weeks prior I was listening to that recording. I was like, I'm pretty sure I know which Guido Contini is here. Guido. I just knew it. I knew it was her. I knew it.
[209:17]
Kevin Duda
Fanboy.
[209:18]
Matt Kauflick
But I'm. That's the thing is, like, that's just.
[209:20]
Kevin Duda
How my brain works.
[209:21]
Matt Kauflick
It's not that I sit around being like, I must know which one is Kathy Voitko. I must know which one is Elena. I just heard it. I Was like, that's fucking her. I know it. I know it's her. And then at the library today, I watched and I. I point. I was like, I'm gonna watch. I see. I know which one's her dress. It's like sunflower yellow, white dress. Okay, okay. Is she the one who says the third Guida Contini? Yes, that's her. It's Elena. It's Elena.
[209:44]
Kevin Duda
Well done, Matthew.
[209:45]
Matt Kauflick
We still didn't cast Sarah Gina, but that's fine. We'll do an open call for that.
[209:48]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, I. Let's. I mean, let's open up the comments on that one because I don't know. That's tricky.
[209:52]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Guys, we're doing A gender reversed 9. Joshua Henry is our lady of the spa.
[209:59]
Kevin Duda
Leading with that.
[210:00]
Matt Kauflick
I am. I have Stephanie Necropolis. It's been made. It's been done, it's happened. We. We've listed everyone else, so now we just need our Sarah Gina, and a handful of other amazing bitches. We'll put Casey and Max in the ensemble.
[210:12]
Kevin Duda
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[210:15]
Matt Kauflick
They. They can do the. Not since Charlie Chaplin. Well, they pussy pop.
[210:21]
Kevin Duda
I can't imagine. Like, la, la la la la la la la la la.
[210:25]
Matt Kauflick
I don't know. There's a richness to 20 men singing different ranges. You. Listen, you were in a show all about it, but.
[210:34]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[210:34]
Matt Kauflick
But your show was all high. High 10.
[210:35]
Kevin Duda
Well, we thought we had to sing really high.
[210:37]
Matt Kauflick
Yes, exactly.
[210:38]
Kevin Duda
We didn't have to sing really high until after Stephen Remus saw me in Dangerous Liaison. Sing high. And then he was like, oh, I can use that. Yeah, the high voice.
[210:44]
Matt Kauflick
Andrew Randall's being like, I will. I refuse to get fired off the keys.
[210:49]
Kevin Duda
I remember when. I remember we walked out and Andrew Reynolds, when he had just learned you, and mostly me, and he sang, and we were like, is that even a key? It was. Sounded so hot. I mean.
[210:57]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[210:57]
Kevin Duda
You know, he comes from the voiceover world, so, like, he makes everything sound higher than it is, even though it's still very high.
[211:02]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[211:02]
Kevin Duda
You know.
[211:03]
Matt Kauflick
Well, that's. Yeah. Placement. Placement can make any note sound high based on how you do it. Yep.
[211:08]
Kevin Duda
And no vibrato. In a good way.
[211:09]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. And. And if it's the top of your register, like, if you're. If you're a bass singing an E, you're like, oh, my God, that's the highest note of all time. And meanwhile, in Mormon, it's like, oh, that's the option down.
[211:21]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Correct.
[211:22]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Any last words on nine before we wrap this bitch up.
[211:26]
Kevin Duda
No, I just loved revisiting it with you. I haven't thought about it and like this in so long, and unpacking it and just talking about it was really, really interesting. I loved it.
[211:32]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I don't know.
[211:34]
Kevin Duda
I would like to direct it. I actually love to direct it. And I don't. I haven't ever said that about anything else. I have no instinct to direct. I know Nine well enough that I would. I would want to direct it.
[211:43]
Matt Kauflick
I would see your nine, and I would want it.
[211:45]
Kevin Duda
And I also think a missed opportunity is more people should be doing it as a symphony in concert.
[211:51]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Didn't they try to do that with transport Group recently?
[211:55]
Kevin Duda
Maybe.
[211:56]
Matt Kauflick
Maybe.
[211:56]
Kevin Duda
I'd listen. I'd love to do the Italian version. I'd love to go over to Italy and figure out how to do it in Italy with, like, an American cat, you know?
[212:03]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I mean, I am. I would love to do it just, like, all the beautiful voices and all the big orchestra doing it. The other thing I'll say about Nine is, like, that is a show where you have to cast people with voice.
[212:14]
Kevin Duda
Oh, man. Yes. Yes. Which is probably why it isn't such a dancing show. Yeah, right. Like, I mean, half those women could sway.
[212:20]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[212:20]
Kevin Duda
You know, it's movement.
[212:21]
Matt Kauflick
It's very movement based. And anyone who, like, sees a production Nine, it's like the dancing just wasn't enough. It's never been.
[212:28]
Kevin Duda
No, it's not gonna be a dance show.
[212:29]
Matt Kauflick
It's never been.
[212:30]
Kevin Duda
They need to walk around their boxes.
[212:31]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. Well, the same way, like, Dreamgirls isn't actually a dance show. It's very strategic movement. Right, exactly. And. And all the choreography in the original Nine with Tune and Tommy Walsh, like, it's movement when you least expect it, which is what makes it exciting.
[212:43]
Kevin Duda
Yes.
[212:44]
Matt Kauflick
But, like, there's never a kick line. Like, the first half of Foley Bridgere is just them on their boxes swaying side to side. But very specifically.
[212:52]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[212:52]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. I actually think that some of the choreography in the revival is better because it has. It has more sex to it.
[212:58]
Kevin Duda
Yeah.
[212:58]
Matt Kauflick
There's a lot of touching the boobies in that revival.
[213:00]
Kevin Duda
Oh, really?
[213:01]
Matt Kauflick
Everyone's touching their titties. Antonio's touching everybody's titties and butts.
[213:05]
Kevin Duda
Who was the choreographer?
[213:07]
Matt Kauflick
Jonathan Petrou.
[213:08]
Kevin Duda
Oh, that's right. That's right.
[213:09]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah.
[213:10]
Kevin Duda
Right.
[213:10]
Matt Kauflick
Is he British?
[213:11]
Kevin Duda
He is British. He's the one who did the Fiddler revival too.
[213:14]
Matt Kauflick
That's what happened. Because that revival gave us that revival. The same team Yep, yep, yep, yep. And that's where the Lord giveth and.
[213:23]
Kevin Duda
The Lord taketh away. Agreed.
[213:25]
Matt Kauflick
Yep. Be careful how successful you are. It doesn't mean you're great at everything.
[213:29]
Kevin Duda
That's right. That's right. I mean, if nine teaches us anything, it's be careful what you wish for.
[213:33]
Matt Kauflick
Exactly. Because sometimes you give us a 9 fresh out of Italian Vogue. And sometimes you give as a Fiddler fresh out of West Elm.
[213:39]
Kevin Duda
Oh, God. Oh, God.
[213:42]
Matt Kauflick
Well, at least I didn't say ikea. That was the Bart share one. Make Fiddler a set again.
[213:50]
Kevin Duda
Yes, please.
[213:51]
Matt Kauflick
Make Fiddler fun again.
[213:53]
Kevin Duda
Make Fiddler a production again.
[213:54]
Matt Kauflick
Make Fiddler have energy again. Actually, no, they did do that. That was the Yiddish production.
[213:58]
Kevin Duda
Yes. Right.
[213:59]
Matt Kauflick
That was incredible.
[214:00]
Kevin Duda
Beautiful. Gorgeous.
[214:01]
Matt Kauflick
I was like, yeah. Hey, other directors who did it this century, just remember the first act. We, we. Everyone has to sort of kind of like being an Anatevka. That's the whole reason why these traditions getting broken is hard. Because everyone's enjoyed it so far.
[214:14]
Kevin Duda
Correct. We have to hate leaving at the end.
[214:16]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Why start matchmaker with Seidel on the ground crying, oh, God. Or sponge bathing herself? Oh, yeah, Choices. Listen, I love watching women get wet, but not that wet. Ah, but speaking of Marco Coeli in the Substance. And we're back to the substance.
[214:32]
Kevin Duda
And we're back to the substance.
[214:33]
Matt Kauflick
Honestly, the substance and nine have so much more in common than you'd ever realize. Okay, that's it. We've wrapped all that shit up. Kevin, this has been delightful.
[214:41]
Kevin Duda
Oh, my God. What a. What a delight to come back and actually reprove you.
[214:44]
Matt Kauflick
I wonder. I wonder if this is gonna be the longest episode of Breakdown.
[214:47]
Kevin Duda
Oh, Jesus.
[214:48]
Matt Kauflick
Really? It might be.
[214:49]
Kevin Duda
Cut some shit.
[214:49]
Matt Kauflick
Why would I do that?
[214:50]
Kevin Duda
Oh. Cause there's some silence.
[214:52]
Matt Kauflick
There's some silence. Well, there. We had some moments in between breaks that I will cut out. But, like, this is definitely an over three hour episode.
[214:58]
Kevin Duda
Oh, my God.
[214:59]
Matt Kauflick
Whatever. The. The longest traditional episode of Breakdown I had. That's like an analysis episode I'm pretty sure is either Miss Saigon at three and a half or May or Boys in the Band might be 345.
[215:11]
Kevin Duda
Oh, wow. Well, that both deserve.
[215:13]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, I'm. Nine deserves it.
[215:16]
Kevin Duda
Nine.
[215:16]
Matt Kauflick
Nine deserves it. I love. People love to tell me your episode is longer than the show. And I'm like, you're welcome. Look at the state of the world. I'm giving you four hours to get away from it. You're welcome.
[215:29]
Kevin Duda
You're welcome.
[215:30]
Matt Kauflick
Kids, children, you nine year olds, you uncultured fucking nine year olds. Okay, Kevin, where can people find you if you want them to find you?
[215:38]
Kevin Duda
Oh, I'm on Instagram mostly. I'm Kevin Dudagram.
[215:42]
Matt Kauflick
His close friends is still is in progress.
[215:45]
Kevin Duda
I don't have a. Oh, I do have a close friend.
[215:48]
Matt Kauflick
You have a close.
[215:48]
Kevin Duda
I don't really. I mean, I have. Of course I have one. I've never used it.
[215:51]
Matt Kauflick
I was gonna say because I've never seen you post anything.
[215:53]
Kevin Duda
No, no, no, no, no. That's where I am. And I'm not acting anymore. I'm producing. So come. Come support things. I'm producing.
[216:00]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah. Come visit his couch kids.
[216:02]
Kevin Duda
Yes. I said yes too quickly.
[216:07]
Matt Kauflick
No, it's fine. He's one of the good ones.
[216:09]
Kevin Duda
Yes, Correct.
[216:10]
Matt Kauflick
He's very happily with a man.
[216:11]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[216:12]
Matt Kauflick
Yes. It's what makes him sexy. Surprise, Mom. Surprise, Mom. I'm with a man. And we're very happy. I'm so sorry to tell you Father Donovan was wrong. Good fingers, though. So you can find me on Instagram at Matt Koplik. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice 5 star rating or review none that I've gotten since the last time I recorded. So I apologize about any of that. Join the Discord Channel if you haven't yet. That's where you can answer or put in any questions you have for future episodes or anything that's spoken about on the podcast that maybe you know that we said that was incorrect and you want to share, you can share it on the Discord. We have over 200 members. I think we got 215 now. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. And that's just, you know, like a fraction of the listenership. Yes, we were. We were shown right. Recently that we were Broadway podcast Network. Second most streamed podcast on Spotify this year, right after the Cheese Wheel, whatever the she is. But above Sentimental Men. And they had Cynthia and Ariana this year.
[217:18]
Kevin Duda
Hey, all right.
[217:20]
Matt Kauflick
Hey, Yeah. I. I owe it all to you uncultured fucks. Kevin. We close out every episode with a Broadway diva to play us out in post. Who should we play us out with today?
[217:30]
Kevin Duda
How about. You know what? I wonder if we should do some Karen Akers since we didn't see her. No.
[217:41]
Matt Kauflick
A villa on a hill.
[217:42]
Kevin Duda
Go take this again. No. Anything. Like have her do the. No. I don't know. Whatever you want. Karen Acres. Since I was on the.
[217:48]
Matt Kauflick
I was laughing because I was. I thought it was funny. That's all.
[217:50]
Kevin Duda
I like Karen Acres.
[217:51]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, I love Karen Acres, too. She's in.
[217:53]
Kevin Duda
She's not really a Broadway diva, though, is she? Not really, no.
[217:56]
Matt Kauflick
She only did the two shows. She's in Purple Rose of Cairo. She's the lounge singer in the movie in that. Okay, so, you know, that's worth seven Broadway shows.
[218:07]
Kevin Duda
I mean, I'm only saying that because we missed her on the original since she was replaced by the time we saw her.
[218:12]
Matt Kauflick
It's true. We did miss her. We had Ms. Maureen McGovern with her.
[218:15]
Kevin Duda
Crazy eyes and her Stradivarius voice.
[218:19]
Matt Kauflick
Yeah, they up. We talked about that. They. We noticed that they upped the key for My husband makes movies and twice into the tempo.
[218:25]
Kevin Duda
That's right.
[218:25]
Matt Kauflick
Twice into meaning doubled.
[218:27]
Kevin Duda
Correct. Thank you. Thank you for that explanation. Because I was like twice, and I.
[218:31]
Matt Kauflick
Think that might be a new word. That is they twicened it. I love it. Anyway, okay, so we'll see you guys soon. Either the next episode is gonna be Come From Away or it's gonna be my yearly wrap up of rankings of the Broadway shows this season so far, as well as a preview for the spring. But that'll be it for now. We'll see you soon. Take it this way, Karen. Bye.
[218:53]
Kevin Duda
Bye, Karen.
[218:53]
Matt Kauflick
And I don't remember correct? And I can't recall your touch.
[218:57]
Kevin Duda
Cause I'd never be so stupid as to open up so much.
[219:01]
Matt Kauflick
Did I really say I need you? No, the words just don't ring true. Cause I don't remember talking and I don't remember laughing I don't remember wanting and I don't remember needing I do.
[219:14]
Kevin Duda
Not remember April I do not remember Tuesday And I don't remember Christmas And.
[219:19]
Matt Kauflick
I don't remember you. Can you identify an Alphabet Just from her defying gravity war cry? Can you name every actress in the Wicked to waitress pipeline?
[219:34]
Kevin Duda
Or does the phrase witch switch mean anything to you? Well, then, good news. My name's Quincy. And my name's Kevin.
[219:45]
Matt Kauflick
And we're the host of Sentimental Men. We're here to talk and maybe scream.
[219:49]
Kevin Duda
About our favorite women in musical theater.
[219:52]
Matt Kauflick
The Witches of Wicked.
[219:53]
Kevin Duda
So if spending a Friday night in.
[219:55]
Matt Kauflick
A no good deed Rabbit hole on YouTube sounds like your idea of a.
[219:59]
Kevin Duda
Good time, then Sentimental Men is the podcast for you.
[220:02]
Matt Kauflick
And with guests like Jessica Vosk, Lucy Jones, and Stephanie J. Block, chances are we've already got an.
[220:07]
Kevin Duda
Episode with your favorite Elphaba or Glinda, like Laura Bell Bundy, Brittney Johnson, and Mackenzie Kurtz.
[220:14]
Matt Kauflick
So pause your Riff compilations, put down your copy of the Grimmery, and give sentimental men a listen.
[220:19]
Kevin Duda
You can find us on the Broadway Podcast Network or wherever you listen to podcasts.