SLAVE PLAY w/ Marcus Scott

Summary

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Broadway Breakdown – "SLAVE PLAY" w/ Marcus Scott

Host: Matt Koplik
Guest: Marcus Scott
Release Date: February 29, 2024

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Episode Overview

Matt Koplik and returning guest Marcus Scott dive deep into Jeremy O. Harris's explosive and controversial play Slave Play. As part of the “Problematic Question Mark” series examining theatre’s most contentious works, they thoroughly unpack the play’s structure, its critical reception, public discourse, and personal emotional resonance. Using their trademark irreverence, honesty, and theatre-bro banter, Matt and Marcus explore the art and industry questions Slave Play raises, the complexities of representation, and the responsibilities of artists and critics.

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Main Theme

Interrogating “Slave Play” as both an artistic and cultural phenomenon:

• How the play grapples with race, sexuality, trauma, therapy, and identity within interracial relationships.
• Why the play was both lauded and hotly debated—and how it sits at the intersection of important but messy conversations about art, audience, and the American theater institution.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is "Slave Play"? [02:29]

• Marcus explains: "The play is about a group of three couples... seeking therapy for their interracial relationships, which are plagued by history of trauma, both sexually and racially."
• The play unfolds in three sections:
  1. A sexually explicit "slave roleplay" therapy
  2. A group therapy session unearthing each couple’s dynamic
  3. An intense, ambiguous final scene between central couple Kenesha and Jim

Shock Value and Walkouts [05:36]

• Marcus: Describes audience members leaving at different moments due to discomfort:

  "By that point, I was kind of already in. That was my cup of tea... But the last scene — just watching a hot air balloon, all of the air slowly deflating out" (07:36)

• Explicit stage action (pegging, bootlicking) proved less provocative to some than what followed.
• The infamous final scene stays with viewers, evoking confusion, anger, or awe depending on their own histories and the performance itself.

Personal Entry Points [10:13]

• Matt: First saw the show on a date, their companion feeling “not smart enough to get it.”

  “Your confusion about that is something a lot of people are confused about. And that was sort of where Slave Play ended for me.” [22:01]

• Highlights how the play resists easy interpretation and closure.

"Problematic" Status—Artistic and Social [24:33]

• Discussion of "problematic" as both a structural/artistic issue and an immediate, internet-driven label for art that challenges or triggers discomfort.
• Comparison to Branden Jacobs-Jenkins’ An Octoroon; how Slave Play situates itself differently, especially in its final act.

The Final Scene—Interpretation & Ambiguity [28:36]

• Detailed recap and live reading of Harris’s final stage directions.
• The uncertain fate of Kenesha and Jim:

  “Some nights I play it and there’s absolutely no hope. And some nights I’m not sure. So you could have seen it on a Wednesday and I could have seen it on a Saturday and it would be different” (38:23).

Reception & Tony Awards Controversy [10:27, 12:51, 108:48]

• Slave Play became the most Tony-nominated play in history (12 nominations) but won none—sparking retrospective industry conversations that critics and audiences were suppressing while it was running:

  “Do not mistake what people are saying publicly for what they actually feel, especially with Broadway...” (109:02)

• Public and private discourse about the play (and its author) diverged widely.

Jeremy O. Harris—Celebrity Playwright & Public Persona [13:14, 113:46]

• Compared to Truman Capote: A recognized socialite and provocateur as well as an artist.
• Harris’ penchant for steering the conversation away from the play's content and toward his own social and cultural brand:

  “He is a... socialite who happens to write.” [13:52]

The Rihanna Incident & Audience Etiquette [15:45]

• Discussion of Rihanna arriving late, using her phone during the performance, and Harris’ defense of her behavior as a "new audience etiquette"—resulting in debates about respect/fandom/theater traditions.

  “Jeremy O. Harris came to the defense of Rihanna and said... he doesn't believe in that ideology. That stirred a big conversation in theater about respect.” (15:45)

Therapy Section—Ambition, Flaws, and Silences [47:32]

• The long, talky, group-therapy section is divisive:

  “As someone who does podcast—this group chat is wonderful... I never want to write a two-and-a-half hour play about you and me sitting here talking. This could be a scene, but not a play.” (49:07)

• Notably, the (black, female) protagonist Kenesha is silent for much of the therapy scene—mirroring her silencing in the narrative and producing further debate.

Analysis of the Four Couples [52:09, 56:42, 72:12, 82:18]

• Each couple brings a prism for the exploration of power, fetishization, sexual dysfunction, and racial history:
  • Kenesha & Jim: The centerpiece, their struggle with interracial desire and trauma.
  • Philip & Alana: Fetishization, “I don’t see race,” and the power/invisibility of being "the only black man in the room.”
  • Dustin & Gary: Gay couple, value systems, and the wrenching “I am the prize” monologue—the heart of the play’s self-worth discourse.
  • Taya & Patricia: Lesbian, biracial couple acting as debate moderators; ultimately left as more tantalizing possibilities than fully-developed characters.

Structural & Institutional Critiques [87:58, 89:56, 105:36, 135:13]

• Harris’ work (and Black playwrights in general) not subjected to the same rigorous, iterative development (too many white-run institutions afraid to offer meaningful feedback).

  "A lot of institutions... They get very afraid, and they don’t want to push back... and it’s not a nicety that we get in this industry. So many people are afraid of conflict." (88:30)

• Playwriting education (e.g., the “Yale style”) and what’s lost when institutional critique is avoided.

Who Is “Art” For? Audience, Identification, and Challenging Work [92:26]

• Pet peeve: The false notion that art should only be for one subgroup.

  “Wonderful art is this window into a world—maybe yours, maybe a world you don’t know—and should be able to reach across the aisle...” (92:26)

• How challenging, uncomfortable work is vital but not always effective—and how audience demographics drive reception, sometimes for the wrong reasons (see American Fiction).

Lasting Impact and Future [144:18]

• Harris is “one or two drafts away” from creating truly great, lasting work.
• Will Slave Play have legs in the canon, or is it an important “root” for something greater down the line?
• The importance of fostering and mentoring young, marginalized playwrights rather than fast-tracking them for the sake of optics.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the play’s ambiguity:
  “Some nights I play it and there’s absolutely no hope. And some nights I play it and I’m not sure ... You could have seen it on a Wednesday and you could have seen it on a Saturday, and ... it never is totally the same.” — Marcus [38:19]

• On audience etiquette:
  “It’s more just that theater is a communal experience... and for any phone ring or texting or talking or whatever, you are robbing everyone around you and yourself of every second that ... you paid top dollar for.” — Matt [19:27]

• On the “therapy section” writing:
  “I never, ever, ever want to make this a play... This could be a scene, but not a play.” — Matt [49:07]

• On being a Black playwright in white institutions:
  “A lot of these institutions get a little scary... They’re afraid of saying the wrong thing... you get an Easy-Bake Oven meal sometimes.” — Marcus [88:30]

• On Slave Play’s lasting value:
  “For all of its problems ... we really haven’t seen a young playwright come along with this much gusto on a Broadway stage in a minute.” — Marcus [143:16]

• On art and audience:
  “The mentality of art... of it only being for one subgroup of people... I think wonderful art is this window into a world ... and it should be able to reach across the aisle.” — Matt [92:26]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:29 | What Slave Play is about (spoilers) | | 05:14 | Audience walkouts, breaking points | | 10:13 | Matt & Marcus describe their first viewing experiences | | 12:51 | Tony Awards context and expectations | | 15:45 | Rihanna controversy and theatre etiquette | | 22:01 | “Entering the chat”—What audiences ‘get’ or ‘miss’ about the play | | 28:36 | The climactic/ambiguous final scene: setup and stage directions | | 38:23 | How various performances changed the play's ending | | 56:42 | Deconstructing Philip & Alana, power, visibility, fetishization | | 72:12 | Introduction to Gary & Dustin; representation of interracial gayness| | 82:18 | “I am the prize” speech, privilege, monologues | | 87:58 | Harris and institutional critique (“Easy-Bake Oven” vs. revision) | | 105:36 | “Yale style” and Harris’ dramaturgy | | 113:46 | Public vs. private opinion, media narratives, industry truth | | 122:31 | Public criticism vs. bad faith (“Was the show anti-white?”) | | 129:10 | Blackout nights, audience pressure, “black solidarity” | | 144:18 | Is it a “problematic masterpiece”? The play’s ultimate value | | 150:37 | Matt & Marcus on Harris’ recurring themes and influence |

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Language and Tone

• Irreverent, foul-mouthed, and passionate—true to Broadway Breakdown's style.
• Self-effacing humor open debate; academic but accessible, informed by lived experience.
• Both hosts “name names” and draw from both personal encounters and broader industry observations.

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Memorable Podcast Moments

• Reading the final stage directions of Slave Play live [33:44]
• Comparisons to Capote/Vidal, and the “socialite playwright” archetype [13:51]
• Multiple callback jokes about pegging, boots, and dildos—juxtaposing camp with critique
• Running jokes about “Alana-ing your Philip” as a new shorthand for over-speaking someone [93:53]
• Unscripted Zoom reaction emojis causing confusion, mirroring the play’s ambiguity [138:48]

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Final Thoughts & Wrap-Up

• Slave Play is both deeply flawed and undeniably ambitious, a landmark in contemporary theatre’s cultural conversations even as its full artistic worth is yet to be determined.
• Its legacy will depend on both Jeremy O. Harris’s growth as an artist and how the industry learns—or fails—to nurture new voices beyond superficial celebration.

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Next up on Broadway Breakdown

Aida—which Matt teases will be a “bonkers episode, because that is a bonkers show.”

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Diva Play-out

Chosen Diva: LaChanze (as tribute to iconic Black Broadway talent & legacy) [153:09]

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“What the writer was really trying to embark on ... it's crawling with ideas ... That third act is what makes it really problematic. It's the takeaway.”
— Marcus Scott [140:39]

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Transcript

[A]

Hello, all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. This series is called Problematic Question Mark, covering shows that you're mad at and their possible redemption. I am your host, Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today is a member of the Three Timers Club. Now, on this podcast, you are. You know him, you love him. He's opinionated, he's articulate. He will read me for filth while complimenting me at the same time, because that's how he rolls. Please welcome back to the podcast, Marquette Scott.

[B]

Thank you, thank you. Thank you for having me.

[A]

That was the most subdued reaction to everything I just said.

[B]

I don't take compliments well. You know this.

[A]

I do, I do. I've been trying to. As Alana does with her bow. Philip, I'm trying to ease you in inch by inch with. With the compliments here, but we'll get to her in a second. Marcus, what play are we talking about today?

[B]

We're talking about Slave Play by Jeremy O. Harris.

[A]

Yeah. Now, this play was a reach for this series. I didn't really think it was totally accurate for problematic. You know, no one had heard of it. No one had any qualms with it. It kind of came, it went. No one has had any conversations or articles about it. I really had to dig deep to find all the materials. Of course, I'm joking.

[B]

Now, this is probably one of the most problematic and transgressive shows of the generation.

[A]

Yeah, well, so, okay, let's. Let's. Let's get some, like, homework out of the way. First off, Marcus, for my uncultured fucks, can you give us a brief rundown of what Slave Play is about? And of course, spoilers ahead for anyone who didn't realize this is going to be a spoilery episode.

[B]

Great, because I was going to say, how do I get around that spoiler. So the play is about a group of three couples who are having a very interesting and unique couples therapy. Yes, that is. That is how I can say it in a sentence. But the play is about a group of people who are seeking therapy for their interracial relationships, which are plagued by history of trauma, both sexually and. And racially.

[A]

Yeah, and the title comes from the fact that they are a part of this sexual therapy slash, kind of group study, I suppose. Yeah, it's like, still kind of an experiment, though. Two women running it don't totally. They don't really know what they're doing. They're. The experiment is still very new and. And we'll talk about them as well and sort of why how this study came about. But the idea is that it's couples who as, as Marcus said, you know, interracial and having issues intimately and. And whatnot and addressing their own issues as well as historical, systemic issues with their race and their interracial partnerships by playing out sexual slave roleplay.

[B]

Is that a thought bubble?

[A]

A thought bubble, yeah. A little thought bubble, yeah. Because the way that the play is structured. Right. You know, it begins for. I actually. So I clocked it. I did it because we'll talk about also how it came into our lives. When I saw it for the first time, you know, I was thrown by the twist because of how it's structured. And then when I watched at the library for the episode, I timed the three sections, how long they were because it. The play is very much in three sections. The first section is the slave roleplay, which is how the show has advertised itself at that point. And so you think it's going to be this very wild parody almost. And then 40 minutes in, Paul Alexander Nolan shouts Starbucks in a British accent. And you realize that we are actually in present day. And then we'd spend. How long was it? We spent I think like an hour and 10 minutes with the group therapy session and then 20 minutes for the final scene.

[B]

The scene that everyone can't get over. That particular scene.

[A]

Yeah. Well, for. For many reasons.

[B]

For many reasons.

[A]

So Marcus, how did slave play come into your life? How did it enter your chat?

[B]

So I was doing a writing group. I was part of a writing cohort with Liberation Theater Company where I was writing my play Sibling Rivalries and one of the many perks where we got free tickets to see Ship. A lot of that was black Bipoc Theater. And so I saw this at the original. For its original production at New York Theater Workshop. Yeah, it was wild. I watched people walk out during that role playing session. Particularly when the gay couple, Philip and Dustin, Gary and Dustin. And Philip is the other. Is the other one.

[A]

Yes, Philip is the. Is the one who. He's straight, but he gets pegged.

[B]

Yes, that's the one.

[A]

This is the second episode, as far as I know, in this series that has mentioned pegging. But this time it's actually relevant.

[B]

It's happening on stage in front of ours. And that's not when people left. It was like when the boot licking commenced.

[A]

It's when they left, that's where they left.

[B]

I was like, what?

[A]

Yeah, it's like, if all the things to be offended by in that play, it's like by that point, if you've made it to the bootlicking, at that point, you're in.

[B]

So they were just like, no, we can't do this. Literally, she pulled out like, a giant dildo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, you know, does it on stage in front of her eyes. And that was. That was okay for people. But when we got to the bootlegging, that's when people.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe because it was so overt, it was actually happening. Whereas the. The dildo insertion, you don't actually see it happen.

[B]

Yeah. But it's kind of implied. But this right here was. I mean, he's literally, like, jerking off wearing his Calvin Klein's. You know, as.

[A]

As one do.

[B]

Yeah. This is. What is it, five minutes? We've only been.

[A]

I know. This is. It's going to be a Wild, Wild west episode.

[B]

Yes. So my experience was. Was watching that, and by. By that point, I was kind of already in. That was kind of like, that's my cup of tea. I like that kind of theater. Up until really the last scene is where I thought, like, this is brilliant. Like, there's. You know. And then the last scene happened. And to watch, like, just. My experience was just kind of like watching a hot air balloon, just all of the air slowly deflating out of the balloon.

[A]

Yeah. It's. We'll get to it. We'll get to it. Because that's a whole conversation, and it's. And I had a different viewpoint on it the second time I watched it, and I wasn't quite sure why. And then I read the last page of the script, and I want you to. I know you have the script with you, so I want to make sure that you can read exactly what it is that Oharis puts in the stage directions. But then I also read an article about it, and I was like, fascinating and also infuriating. Again, we'll get to her. But yeah. So you didn't see it when it moved to Broadway and China took over. Right.

[B]

Did not. I. That was the. That was actually. Wait, did I see. I saw every play that season. There were nine plays by Black playwrights that.

[A]

It was the 2019-2020 cut off by Covid season. So that was Inheritance, Slave Play, Sound, Inside Sea Wall, Life, whatever. That.

[B]

That was the. That was. That was the tail end of that. Because that's. That was. We got a strange loop.

[A]

Lynn not the Strange Loop was at Playwrights Horizons that summer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that was about the transfer. Yeah, yeah. The. The Lynn Nottage plays.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And. And so that.

[A]

So that was. So that. What happened? What happened was Slave Play opened on Broadway in, like, September, October 2019, closed in January of 2020. Covid famously happened.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. Yes. And then it came back after the COVID Tonys. And so it. Yes, it was that. It came back during that string of black playwrights having stuff. So there was thoughts of a colored man, Passover, Slave Play.

[B]

And so both of those were, like, limited runs, and I didn't see that play for that particular reason. Yes. Every other play except for that play.

[A]

Yes, I. I saw Slave Play the first time. It was on Broadway, not the second time. And it was. It was so limited. The second time around. It was back literally for eight weeks and then out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then they moved because then they took to la. They.

[B]

What.

[A]

What was infamous about that was. I mean, I. Did you watch that Covid Gas leak, Tony's ceremony?

[B]

Of course. Of course. I saw that. That was. It was nominated for 12 Tony.

[A]

Yep. And won how many?

[B]

None.

[A]

None.

[B]

What is it? That's like the. The other. The only musical or play that has that is the Scottsboro Boys. Interesting how that happens with black shows.

[A]

But I mean. Yeah, yeah. So here's my thing, though, with that. Tony's. And I don't want to get too into it just because I will be covering the Inheritance on this series as well, and I have issues with the Inheritance that are similar. That are similar to Slave Play. I think, overall, I find Inheritance to be a better play in general, despite it having similar flaws to Slave Play. But I'll get into that when we talk about the play itself.

[B]

Say, why don't you disagree?

[A]

Well, that's what theater's about, Marcus. That's what art is about. My baby. No, I. Listen, I. And part of the reason why I'm covering Inheritance for the series is that when that play came to Broadway, every. Pretty much every gay I knew detested it. And there are reasons for detesting it. Were more political than artistic.

[B]

I agree. I agree.

[A]

That's a. Again, that's something to talk about with the Inheritance. Point being, I was overall pleased with the Inheritance winning play just because I. I liked it more if not loved it. And I was happy that Andrew Burnett won. The. The attitude going into that year's Tonys was that everyone expected Slave Play to win. Slave Play expected Slave Play to win.

[B]

It was like it was the. It was. It was the Beyonce of. You know, it was a Beyonce, Harry Styles situation, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Were you expecting Renaissance? And then, wow, Fine line wins. And you're like, how did that happen? Or, you know. Or is that the one. Fine line is the one. Is the one before. Yeah, I forget.

[A]

Was Watermelon the one that. Or what was it? Sugar. Watermelon. Is that the Harry Styles song?

[B]

Yeah, Watermelon Sugar.

[A]

Yeah, Watermelon Sugar.

[B]

That was. Yeah, that was, you know, that was the. That was the year. It was very similar to that in terms of, like, the politics, because you just thought, like, Renaissance was the song of the sub. Was. It was the album of the summer. Yeah. And. And this was very much the play of the season, you know, like, yeah, we'll.

[A]

We'll get into the. How it happened as we get into the play and its reception. But, yeah, basically, you know, they thought they were gonna win. They thought they were gonna at least win play, if not like, at three more Tonys that night, because they planned on announcing on the stage, surprise, we're coming back for a limited run. And then they ended up having to, like, announce it at their after party through the Times. It was a. Yeah. There was a whole article about it.

[B]

Too, in the Instagram post. My God.

[A]

I mean, Jeremy O. Harris loves social media. Something I was going to say about him that I kind of want to get out of the way because it also ties into, I think, why that play didn't end up winning. And part of the, quote, unquote, problematic discussions about it are that a lot of people have opinions about Jeremy O. Harris, the person, if not necessarily the artist. And someone said to me today, they view him now sort of like as our generation's Capote, where.

[B]

Yeah, he's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Our Truman Capote or our Gord Vidal. He is a. An intellectual who. Or a socialite who happens to write.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. And maybe it's just because Capote's on the brain right now, what with Feud, Capote versus the Swans, which is. Have you been watching that, by the way?

[B]

I, I. You know, I. Actually, the only thing Capote really, I've ever seen is the Philip Seymour Hoffman movie. I haven't even seen the other one. Notorious.

[A]

Yeah. Infamous, right? Yeah. When it comes to Capote, just actually read Capote, you know, there's nothing's really going to do him justice. In Cold Blood is one of the best books ever written. But Capote versus the Swans, not a very good show. I want it to be better, but then it actually is, but it's fine. Point is, it's. Ryan Murphy produced it, but he didn't actually do anything with it.

[B]

That's kind of like typical pilot would be good, but the show would still flounder.

[A]

That's. That is. That is the. That is the Murphy way. It's always a great pilot and then it goes kerplunk. But no, because Capote's on the brain. I think that's why we're all sort of thinking it. But yeah, Jeremy, you know, really intelligent person, writes some beautiful prose, is a, you know, a talented individual, but is far more interested in the social cachet of being a playwright, it seems, than actually being a playwright and, you know, has become sort of their own brand and figure. And that's. If that's what they want, like, you know, go for it. But for a minute, when Slave Play came out, they was a lot of animosity towards Jeremy O. Harris because this play had happened and they wanted it to be sort of like a big cultural moment. And then Jeremy O. Harris was more interested in sort of stirring the pot than actually having conversations about the play. Yeah, yeah. I mean, do you remember what happened when Rihanna came?

[B]

Oh, yeah. So Rihanna, whose song work is interpolated into the. The show. She was at the very beginning of the show, she came in to watch the show and she had very good house seats. She sat down and all eyes were on Rihanna. And Rihanna opened her phone and began texting. But Rihanna is a multi million, is a billionaire. She has businesses and things to do. And you could say that people were not happy. People had a lot of things to say. And Jeremy L. Harris came to the defense of Rihanna and said that Rihanna should be on her phone and that he doesn't believe in that, that, that ideology. That's what happened. And it stirred a big conversation in theater about respect.

[A]

It also didn't help that she was 20 minutes late and they held the curtain for her.

[B]

Yes. Oh, yes. That was the part that happened.

[A]

It was. I think if it was one or the. If one or the other thing happened and everyone would have been miffed. And it might have lasted like 24 hours and moved on. But the fact that both happened and that Jeremy defended both of those things, it got a lot of people upset because he tried to make it a conversation about people who don't normally come to the theater. They don't know the quote, unquote, proper etiquette. As long as they're engaged, who cares? And then everyone else clapped back and like, you Just are okay with it because she's a celebrity. Like if. If she was some random woman off the street, you would have writer for filth.

[B]

And it. And to be honest, it came up like a star, you know. Yeah. Who's interested in that. And so. Yeah, I remember that conversation. But it really did create a conversation about like, cell phone usage and the politics of theater and if that's old hat or not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What did you.

[A]

How do you feel about it, Marcus? I.

[B]

Okay. I. I'm. I'm very much. I disagree with him, but I do feel that like there needs to. Because of just how my theory going. Experiences are and because I. I do like, there's kind of like, especially in the wake of that, there's been a lot of bipoc playwrights and storytellers that have said, you know, during the curtain call to. Not the curtain call, but at the start of the. Of the show to say that you can. Yes. And you can aim in, you can speak out, you can clap, you can applaud, you can. You know, this is a play that is meant to. To arouse. Arouse feedback. So there's been a lot of that, you know, conversation in these spaces. So I believe that people laugh out loud and they should. I know that's right. And you know, I feel like, you know, I do feel that there's space for that, but I think you should turn up your cell phone. I just feel that like, especially if I paid, I'm just thinking of a person of the, you know, the average consumer and the average ticket of a Broadway ticket. If I'm paying on the low end, 80 to see a ticket, you know, to see a show, then I need you to turn your cell phone. I don't need you talking. And that's like on the low end. If it's a $300 ticket, $500 ticket, sometimes, you know, to see, you know, name a celebrity, you know, do a famous role, you know, I feel that like you should turn up yourself up. Yeah, that's.

[A]

Yeah. For me, it's not even about like what's old hat and what's new. I think if you are engaged with the plan, you have an honest response to something like, I don't care what that response is, that it's always so fun to people react to things. But yeah, no. And when it comes to cell phones, when it comes to even talking, like, it's more just that theater is a communal experience. And what makes it so unique is that it is always different. Every night, even though the show is performed the next day, the audience is different, so the response is going to be different. The actors have had a different day leading going into that theater. So even though people say, oh, you check yourself at the stage door like that, no, you, the day you had will sometimes inform the performance you're giving or if you're slightly under the weather or if there's an understudy, if there's a cell malfunction, like, you know, it's all. It isn't going to truly be replicated down to the T. You're not seeing a movie in that respect. And so for any phone ring or texting or talking or whatever, you are robbing everyone around you and yourself of every second that, as you said, you paid top dollar for. So you're kind of robbing yourself. You're cheating yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I will say, in Ms. Rihanna's defense, there is a section of the play where I can imagine texting was a little easier than, Than sitting and watching, if only because it went on for 70 minutes. But, you know, we'll. We'll get to that when we get to that. So actually, before we do any of that, let's take a quick break. How do you mean? You're the top? Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet of. And we're back. This all comes from, by the way, I was saying how Slave Play came into my life. I, I, you know, I like actually saying how it entered my chat. That. I think that's, that's, that's a better. I think that's a more fun way to say it. Here's how Slave Play entered my chat. So I was aware of it off Broadway, but, you know, you couldn't get a ticket. That thing sold out before it began. I think even rehearsals and extended and sold out. And all I really knew about it was that Paul Alexander Nolan was in it. And I adore that man.

[B]

Yeah. No, I saw him in Jesus Christ Superstar. That was like with, with Josh Young.

[A]

Sure. Same, same. That's when I first saw him, too. The best, most healthily sung Jesus I've ever heard.

[B]

Right. I was like, oh, he's got, you know, he's got a voice.

[A]

But I, that's all I knew about Slave Play when it came to Broadway. What I was trying to find a way to see it and not pay a million dollars because I was very poor at the time. I'm still poor, but I was much Poorer then. And I remember I tried to see it one day. I couldn't get a ticket, so I went to go see Tracy Lutz's Linda Vista at Second Stage, which was speaking of peen. And I. And I, you know, ended up seeing Slave Play, believe it or not. On a date. Yeah. Well, this was somebody who I had already kind of started to see very casually, and we liked each other and everything was fine. And I. I had sort of floated the idea to him of, you know, would you want to see a play tonight? And he picked Slave Play. So we saw it, and we didn't sit next to each other. I think I was in the front row of the orchestra, and I think he was front row of the mez. So we were separated. But then, you know, we rode back to his apartment afterwards and whatnot, and we talked about it on the subway. And he. He's very similar to Dustin, except not nearly as confident in his opinions. You know, he was a. He's a white dancer, and he. And he was very insecure about his opinions on the play because he was like, I just don't think I'm smart enough to get it. I'm like, I think you actually might be. And the fact that you. Because he kept saying, like, well, I didn't understand this. Am I dumb? I was like, you're not dumb, sweetie. No. Like, I think your confusion about that is something that a lot of people are confused about. And that was sort of where Slave Play ended for me. And then the Tonys happened, and then it came back, and it hasn't really come up in conversation since, but I bring it up every now and then to talk about the idea of art being a conversation and not just declarative statements of, like, everyone should walk out knowing what it's about and knowing how to feel. And I applaud Slave Play for doing that, especially with its final scene, but I also have problems with it. This is a case of problematic. Both how we mean it in this. In this series, which is, you know, a work that needs. That has structural issues that need actual, like, reworking just to be a stronger piece, and then a show that the Internet calls problematic in the way that's lazy when they are challenged and they don't want to actually deal with the challenge, and they just go, well, it's problematic.

[B]

Well, I think that, like, for me, I saw Slate play, like, not long after I saw An Octoroon, which was at soho Rep, before it went to theater for a new audience. That's the acronym, right? Tifana.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's a drag queen. Haven't you heard? He's on the stage. Tifana.

[B]

Actually, that name gives. Yeah, yeah, I saw it after. After an Octave, and I just remember. Which, by the way, this weekend, in preparation for this, I did read that both Slave Play and In Octave, because I saw them around the same time. And. And what In Octave Rune was doing was. It was giving you. It was taking a. A piece of. Of theater from, like, you know, this kind of antebellum novel and really reworking, you know, this. Kind of like, this. This theater. It was actually a black author reclaiming this narrative, you know. You know, kind of taking over an antebellum narrative and reworking it for the 21st century. And it was. It was daring, it was funny, it was harrowing. It really kind of like, let you in on the atrocities of slavery while also kind of recontextualizing the black. Black consciousness in modern theater. That's what that was. Doing a slave play. Slave play. What it was doing. It's. Well, it. Why the last scene is so triggering. Can I. Can we just tell us. Say what happens? So.

[A]

So let me set. Let me set up the last scene. And then, Marcus, you go into it. One of the couples, the couple that we open the play with, Kenesha and Jim, played on Broadway by China Kalakongo. Do I have. I never know if I'm saying her last name correctly.

[B]

Don't worry about that.

[A]

Nettie from the Color Purple revival and Tony winner for that musical and that we only refer to as that musical, but it's her and Paul Alexander Nolan, and he's the one who ends the experiment. Role play on. On what we now know as day four of this experiment. She's livid because, you know, she feels embarrassed, she feels betrayed because she was the one who pushed them to do this therapy. She. She says what she really needed and that he ultimately put his own comfort above hers yet again. And he's. He's not listening to what she's saying. And then she's pretty much silent during this whole second stretch, which is the group therapy session, dissecting what happened and what's going on with these couples. And that scene ends when Jim writes to her and recites it to the whole group that he loves her and he's felt for a while now that she's thought of him as some sort of virus, which he says sort of like, casually, like, it's like. I don't know. Like, it's like my. I feel Like, I repulse, you know, like I'm some sort of virus. And that word sets her off because she's like, I never thought of that. Yes, you are a virus. Your whole existence, your ancestry, is a virus. And that is what's killing me. Kenesha also has ocd, and it's been re triggered over the last couple of months, maybe years. And so she's. Part of the reason why she wanted to do this, in addition to trying to understand why Jim was. Was starting to repulse her all of a sudden, was to try to quiet the chaos in her head. And so that therapy scene ends with her kind of having a breakdown. And then the final scene is in their hotel room.

[B]

And so what happened is that during this stretch of this monologue, she asked for her husband to rape her. And it doesn't end well. I believe it's basically the end of their relationship. I mean, he carries it out, and he's left in tears. She is left in a state of manic exhilaration. And is that the only way I can really describe it? It's a really. It's a warped ending. And that's the wind. That's the way the show ends. Why it's triggering is because you had. You know, during this long stretch of conversation in the. Let's call it Act 2, because it's really a giant. A giant act, is that she's been sitting there the entire time, silent. This is a space where everyone is talking. And during the group therapy session, everyone is talking. Everyone has had their say. And the one person that he is silencing, he. He. He. It becomes a kind of like a monologue for the actual. What am I trying to say? It becomes a. He does exactly what he's been criticized for. He silences of the black woman. You know, the black femme voice, her consciousness. And he weaponizes it in the second act, in the third act. That is why it's triggering. It's. It's a. It's a. I'm trying to get my thoughts together. So we might have to cut this part.

[A]

So you get your thoughts together, and you don't have to listen to me. I'm gonna. I'm going to speak while you collect them, because Lord knows I know how to speak, basically, in that final act. And it's interesting you put it that way, because one of the major conversations at the end of the play, and there's an article talking about when that play was running on Broadway the first time, was what is that final act supposed to Mean. And what does that mean for Kenesha and Jim as a couple? Because ultimately, as you said, you know, she has been asking him to do something that. She says, this is what I need. And you want to believe that you'll do anything for your partner, who you love and respect, because they. If they say that's what they need, but what if what they need is something that is kind of harrowing, that requires you to expose a nasty part of yourself? She wants him to be a slave owner. And not really, as you said, not. I'm sorry, everyone, for using trigger words, but this is the play we're talking about. Not like, play raper. Like, really kind of assault her and call her, you know, racial slurs. And at first, he won't do it, you know, and she gets mad at him, and. And he doesn't understand why, because he's like, I love you and respect you too much to do that. She goes, if you love me and respect me, you do what I'd ask. You're putting this. This is not you respecting me. This is you putting your comfort ahead of mine. And. And then in the. And then, as you said, he. You know, she's silent for most of that group therapy section, the 70 minutes until she breaks down. And then that final scene when he. They're in the hotel room, and he says, okay, I'll. I will listen now. I will listen to what you need. And. And she speaks for almost 15 minutes uninterrupted, going through their entire. Her childhood into their relationship history and why she grew to like him. It's also important to note that Jim is British. I think that's. It's an important fact and important detail about his character. He is British, whereas everyone else is American, and there's reasons for that. But eventually, you know, as she's going on and on about the relationship and calling him the virus and the virus that's in him and all these things and all of a sudden know when things got bad with them and why she wanted to do the experiment. Eventually, something switches, and he goes back to the role playing and the way that it was done on Broadway. It was intentionally vague as to what was happening, how real this was, how in control he was of his actions at this point, if we were in this sort of gray area of both fantasy and reality. But ultimately, he goes back into the mode of what she said she wanted. And there's a there. And there are moments when she's resisting the play, and then he had. There are two moments where they kind of lock in. And he kind of says to her, like, nod if you want me to keep going. But he says it like in the. In. In the character, and she nods and they go through with it. And because it is an assault, even though she says it's what she wanted, and for all we know, maybe it is truly what she needed. It is not a. It is not a happy breakthrough. It is a breakthrough, but it is traumatic and messy. And this is actually where I would like you to go to the final page of the script and read what Jeremy o' Harris says in the stage directions.

[B]

Tanisha falls off the bed and begins to cry. It is a full bodied, all hands on deck type of cry. Jim looks at Kenesha, not sure what came over her, what came over him, not sure why he did what he did. As the last light of the Virginia dust begins to fade away and a slight breeze knocks their window against the pan, Jim begins to crawl over to Kenesha slowly, when suddenly the all hands on the deck cry becomes a guttural laugh. Kenesha is overcome. She rolls out of her spot next to the bed and crawls over to Jim, where she reaches over and kisses him. Tears begin to stream again, but this time from Jim it is an ocean of tears with waves, convulsions, and from its depths escapes a whale warbling out from tumultuous guts. Kenesha slowly moves away from him, pulling herself to her. To her feet. And then, and then, and then the actress playing Kenesha does whatever she feels is right before she looks at him. Thank you, baby. Thank you for listening. End of play.

[A]

Now, mark half. When I first saw this play, I did not think this was actually the end of their relationship. I thought, to quote that musical, that she won a Tony for it was their way of letting it burn. Meaning like their relationship, for all the love that's in there, was built off of a toxic, poisonous foundation. And she, she even. She says it at one point in her monologue of sort of like, in order for us to continue, I need us to acknowledge the poison and the night I saw it. And I didn't realize that it could change night to night. The night I saw it, the way Jakina played the last bit, she sat down on the edge of the bed, looked out at the audience, hutched Paula Alexander Nolan's hand, and said very calmly and very almost at peace, thank you, baby. Thank you for listening. And I thought to myself, they just set fire to this toxic foundation so they could build anew. I think they're that in a weird, fucked up way, they might make it. And I had other people who had seen the play saying the same thing to me. And then I had other people who said, absolutely not. They're done.

[B]

Well, to be fair, I didn't see. I saw it with Tiana Paris, who was in Chiraq and who was in She's. She's. She plays Monica Rambeau and the Marvel.

[A]

Films and as well as WandaVision. How dare you neglect that piece of television artistry. Yes, and also she played dawn in Mad Men. Like, she didn't go to Broadway because she's very booked and blessed and basically like, she kind of stopped by to do off Broadway for a second in between her millions of Hollywood gigs. I would love to hear your thoughts on her performance. As I also talk about China. But what I didn't realize was, and then I read this article in my research for this, it was pretty much up to China, every performance, how she was going to deliver those last three minutes. And it's because it's in the script that it's up to her. And in the article, I read the, the cr. The Review, sorry. The columnist asked everyone, do you think they stay together? And Paul Alexander Nolan said yes. And I think part of that is because in order for him to get through doing that day after day, he's like, I need to have some sense of, like, hope in the world. I can't, like, do that if I think that everything's awful. Like, I will kill myself. But he, he says yes. One actor says no. The director, Robert o', Hara, literally says, I don't know. He's like, don't ask me. He's like, I don't have those answers. And they even ask him, like, what's the end of the play about? And he's like, I have no answers. And then Chiquin is like, some nights I play it and there's absolutely no hope. And some nights they play it and I'm not sure. And so I realize now that's in addition to the fact that the last lines are intentionally triggering conversation, also just the way it was presented. Like, I could have seen it on a Wednesday and you could have seen it on a Saturday. And. And this is what I was talking about with like, stop texting. You don't know what performance you're gonna get. It never is going to totally be the same. Like, either performance you saw Jokina or Tiana would have been like, tonight's the night were like, there is no hope. Or tonight's the night that there is hope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tiana played that last bit. It was very. It was almost like she was kind of possessed by something. Yeah, the she. When she sing Virus, she's, like, screaming at the top of her lungs. It almost kind of sounded like a banshee scream. And when we get to that last beat of the show, it was almost like she had. Was having experience in an orgasm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, when I saw it, there was kind of like a release of oh, thank you, baby. Like, it's kind of like almost like she was smoking a cigarette, you know, that's what it felt like. That's what, that's what it seemed like. That was my takeaway. And, and he's like just a puddle of a man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Look like. Yeah, like, I, I, I see what you mean, but it looked like it should set, like, fire. You know, they set fire to the relationship. Like, they're. Like, there was no foundation. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Could there be?

[A]

It was, it was. If she played it like Angela Bassett setting fire to the car and walking away, she was like, it's done. We're over. Yeah, it's. I think. And let me also be very clear, even if it was the start of maybe a healthier spot for them, like, if that's how we want to play it, I'm, I'm still not sure if, like, it's a couple that can actually make it, because, like, that's not something that can be sustained in a healthy manner forever. I say this as someone who's, like, seen a couple of major relationships pretty up close, like, totally unable to sustain the passion and the toxicity. Even if, like, we're communicating. Oh, no, we're ripping. We're going back to studs and starting, Starting fresh. It's like, no. Every time you keep having to go back to basics, every time you keep having to burn down the house, there's something, I mean, there that means there's something rotted in the ground and you have to go off and find new land.

[B]

Well, that's actually. I mean, this is where I think the show is successful and where I think it's better. Not bad, but, like, more a more successful show than a show like the Inheritance. The Inheritance, that was a show that he's looking at the, the, you know, this M. Foster, like, you know, novel, and he's putting it into his consciousness. He's looking at the evolution of, of gay men. Gay, gay, gay, safety, gay. Just, like, you know, the gay community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, in my, you know, from, from the Lost Generation, let's just say that to now, slave play succeeds where it's. It's looking at fundamentally like the damages of, you know, or what could be the damages or the extremes of the narrative being in an interracial relationship, what that could feel like from a black lens. And. And that's why I think it's successful, because lot of the time you are. You. Do you feel like you're not. You're not heard? Do you feel like you're not seen? You feel like you have to do a lot of teaching, a lot of explaining, a lot of coddling, and you do bury your. Your. Your feelings, your. Your. Your insecurities. You bury that deep. So you can protect your partner, so you can be with your partner. And in this moment, it. Showing the history, you know, like, of the transatlantic slave trade. It's. Look, it's showing you that in this very violent act and what that is and where it comes from and like, essentially what you are doing to your partner on the daily. On a spiritual, philosophical and psychological level. That's why I think it's successful. Also, you know, the inheritance has the first half, which is great, and the second half is it. But. But that being. That being the case, I think why this is so triggering for some. Some people, it's. I think. What is it called? Antebellum sexual therapy, which is the actual, like what they're with. The characters are allowing themselves to go through. And it's happening in a. In a. An actual plantation home. You know, these are. What we're seeing is the rot of American history, you know, and you're watching it fester. Why this play successful and why that moment. But why that moment is so. I don't want to say problematic to say problematic, but, like, why. Why it's so.

[A]

Well, you had mentioned earlier that it felt, when you saw it, like the balloon was deflating. So I guess why. Why it was detrimental to the piece's success?

[B]

Yes, because. Yeah, the first. With the first scene, you get that, like, especially with that. The reveal of, like, oh, it's been a. It's been a therapy thing the entire time, and this kind of collapses. And then you have this. Actually, with the exception of her not having a voice in that. In that it's a real, you know, that second act is brilliantly written. Then you get to this moment, and the one scene where you have, you know, this black woman actually taking up space. She's asking for assault, she's asking for violence, taking, you know, against her. And this is, you know, if this is the piece about, in many ways, safe spaces, you know, why is she asking for her. Her. Her, you know, violence against herself, you know, to find some level of freedom? It doesn't make sense. You know, the whole play is about creating a safe space, being safe with your partner, being safe in a country that refuse, you know, that refuses your rights, that politics your hair, that politics your body, that politics your mind, that steals from your culture religiously. Yeah. You know, and, you know, this is. This is your. So we're watching literally an infinity space on stage the entire time. And so when you're watching this piece, you're expecting this couple to find a level of safety, to kind of get back to that. And she's asking for the exact opposite.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which also makes you kind of think. It makes you question the integrity of the piece. It's kind of. When you start thinking about that, it's kind of like Jenga.

[A]

Yeah. Every. Every argument one could make for the play, once you take out that piece, all arguments start to. It's not that they fall apart so much as, like, they lose some of this power of that. Of the argument when you have to take everything else into account. Yeah. And I want to make sure we also talk about, honestly, the three other couples, you know, the Philip, Alana, Gary, Dustin, and then the two doctors. But, I mean, I think it's. There's. There's a reason why Kenesha, why that role was considered the female lead of the play, even though, as you said, in that therapy section, that 70 minute therapy section, she is mostly quiet, because ultimately she is, I believe, the sort of pinpoint of what the show is getting at, the conundrum and the multiple facets that I think Harris is talking about in, you know, the pain and the intelligence and the clarity and the trauma and the strength, like, all wrapped up in one human experience. And, you know, she ultimately chooses violence to get her healing. And even. And it's hard to decide, and I think that's, again, what if not necessarily makes it, for me, a successful play, successful art, if people can understand what I mean by that. The. The conversation of, you know, can it even. Can it truly be healing if it is coming from a place of fire, when that is how you find sex erotic, is to make it this borderline violent, aggressive place. You know, sex no longer becomes intimate and a safe space, as we were saying, like, it becomes warfare. And you can't go to war every time you're in the mood.

[B]

Not every time. Yeah.

[A]

But it's a spice you know, and. And sometimes it can be healing if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're angry with each other and you need to sort of, like, get out the aggression if you're having a bad day, things like that. But, like, what about, like, you know, God forbid, like, your wedding day, you don't want that. First night is like, we're finally married now I need you to get angry at me. Like, that's not. I don't think that that's a. A really great place. Just because, like, anger is on a place you want to live in forever, it really can affect you. And I. For all the ways in which I think, you know, you can argue, as I already did like, that maybe Kenesha and Jim do start to grow from there. Like, as I also said, how long they are able to maintain satisfaction is up for debate, because there's no way that that can really sustain for the rest of their couple. Them. Yeah, you know, but what I would like to argue for myself, you had mentioned that you found the middle section, the group therapy section, brilliantly written. And I agree with you to an extent. As I said, I think Harris is. Do we say Harris or oh, Harris? We say oh, Harris.

[B]

Oh, Harris. Right. That's the way he, you know.

[A]

Oh, Harris.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, Harris. That sounds, you know.

[A]

Yeah. The way you just said that, it was like, oh, Harris.

[B]

Her. There's a period.

[A]

I know. Oh, Harris. No, that middle section, that group therapy section for me, when I first saw, kind of infuriated me as a theater goer, and I was a little more up on it when I rewatched it, maybe because I knew it was coming and I had the memories of disliking it so much the first time that I was less disdainful of it. Although I still have issues with it, if only because there is so much going on in that scene, so many points being made, and I'm like, oh, my God, yes, let's explore it. And then not only do they not get explored, we just. We move on to a new point. That, again, is another wonderful point to make. But it also then comes in, truly, everyone's sitting around and talking. And as someone who does podcast, I love doing this podcast. I'm loving this moment with you here. Now, this is. This group chat is wonderful. I never, ever, ever want to make this a play. I don't. As much as I'm loving this, I don't ever want to write a two and a half hour play about you and me sitting here Talking about this play. Yeah. It's. This could be a scene, but not a play.

[B]

Yeah, no, I, I, the reason why I enjoy it so much is because there are so many park and bark shows. Yeah. But because this is therapy, I've just felt like that kind of like worked for me. I mean like, you know, what is that? What is that? That show on HBO and treatment. Treatment that shows this person sitting down, you know, so like it, it worked for me in that way. But also like, you know, to just kind of defend myself. I love that play. That, that, that act. I do feel that like what makes that act not work is because. Is that, I mean, maybe that's the point is that a black woman is being silenced or you know, she's not talking, people are. And she's kind of silent the entire time and she's not listen to. And no one really acknowledges or rather it's acknowledged at the very beginning. But like we're there for a whole hour and she's silent. And so that is why I, I find it, I find, I find it not a successful scene just because it's like we have all these characters and like, why is she there? Is she theater? Right.

[A]

Yeah. It's a very slow burn. And she's also not the only person of color who gets silenced in that piece there. There's like a long running joke that the, the character of Patricia keeps getting silenced by Taya, the other therapist or partner, and then also like constantly by Jim. And the actress playing Patricia is very transparent about how much she hates Jim. Like, like every time he says something he's like, he finds the whole thing ridiculous. And she's trying, she and Taeya for the first half are trying to be positive like and safe space and, and overly articulating things that make no sense. And at any point, like Jim will undercut. It was like a thing. And one point even says like can I use the restroom? And Patricia's like, no one's stopping you, Jim. Like get the up.

[B]

No. Well, I mean, I feel like as, as we're talking about it, I feel like everyone gets silenced with the couple of. I believe it's Philip and Alana.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're, you know, the whole point is that he was the third and was the original third and her couple. She was married. She's a form. She was formerly married.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A white man. And he. And they both had sexual fantasies of this blended or interracial man and he was welcomed into their bedroom and she and Philip wound up becoming a couple. Yes. And and so much of their relationship is predicated also on. On age. Like, he's like. He's like 10, 15, 20 years older. Younger than her.

[A]

In the script, it says about 10, I think, because the actress playing Alana read a little older. It felt like 15. But, yeah, I mean, I don't think he's supposed to be that much younger, but he is younger. He is definitely younger.

[B]

And so what we're looking at is we're looking at power. We're looking at age, and we're looking at. We're also looking at kind of the racial divide, because he is, you know, rather. He. You know, even if he's blended, you know, or mixed, there's. He still reads as a black man. He's seen a black man to the world. And even though he lives in this kind of. This interesting kind of invisible space, or rather. Or rather the opposite, like, he's seen as this kind of, like, black superhero, Adonis kind of character.

[A]

You know, that's something. How he views himself.

[B]

That's very. How. That's how he views himself. If you look at him, I mean, he's ripped, he shredded.

[A]

You know, the actor playing him, I was like, oh, yes, please break my arm.

[B]

But, yeah, yeah, you saw. What is his name? You saw. I forgot, because he's. He's like, not Sullivan Jones. That was the.

[A]

Sullivan Jones is who did it off Broadway and on Broadway. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So the person who. There's another person, and he. He looks. He's very attractive as well, you know, but, like. But yeah, this is a guy who's, you know, shredded. He's ripped. He has, like, clear skin. He looks like, you know, a. And there is a privilege that comes with that, you know. You know, whether you're a person watching the show or not, like, your eyes do kind of fixate on him because of all of the markers that we. That were told that we're told that are attractive, that we're told that kind of reads as alpha.

[A]

If you're.

[B]

If you're one of those people who believe in Alpha, beta, sigma, whatever, you know, your eyes kind of go to him. He becomes this, like, this vessel of. Of power and security. But what we wind up seeing in that relationship is that she talks over him a lot. A lot of his needs, a lot of his feelings, a lot of his anxieties kind of get pushed down and make her comfortable. And what I will say about the scene, that never worked for me, and it's. It's alluded to, but we. It's Never really spoken about, but like kind of like how we uplift white femininity at all costs in this country, globally. You know, this is a person who, you know, she, she cries and he kind of. They're there and he kind of buries his feelings to make her happy and, and to, you know, kind of, to satiate her, her, her doubts. And when the kind of chickens come the roost, I mean he gets to say. But I feel that's a relationship that's not going to work either. You know, and actually one could argue the, the one relationship that could possibly last, I think is the gay couple. You know, because they, they at least you're getting some kind of communication. This right here felt like when he, even when he, he tells her what the problem is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It'S. It almost feels like a performance within the space.

[A]

Yeah. So Philip, it's so fascinating the way that. Because the way. Yeah, you're right. When they are presented at first it, the joke is just from first glance. You know, he's kind of a himbo. He's tall, he's hot, he's ripped, he doesn't talk much. Alana, kind of a Karen. I mean, but more of who's the. Who is that bird watching Karen that got canceled in the park? Do you remember what I'm talking about?

[B]

I, I don't. But was she the one who was turned into a meme?

[A]

The one she like called the police and started fake crying. I don't feel safe. Because he was bird watching. Yeah. The one that. Yeah. People started using as like not like it's like a Karen in disguise. They, they vote Democrat, but they're, they're a Karen. And Alana is kind of that. And I don't think she's necessarily antagonistic, but there they're all very self centered in the way I think any human being can be. But yeah, the joke at first is just sort of like Alana's classic. White Becky talks over everyone. Like she's got to know she's right. She also, it's very clear she wants this to work the way that it was originally done with Annie. Annie McNamara. She was always constantly checking her notebook to make sure she had the correct quotes from the therapist.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. A running joke would be like you said on day two and like goes through her notes. She goes, you said X, Y, Z. And, and there's this. And there's this great early joke where she's talking about. They're asking like, okay, how did we all feel about day four? You know, we prepped for this and watched the movies and all and you know, now that we're in it, you know, let's talk about what we felt. And she goes on saying all these positive things and like checking on Philip to making sure that he feels the same way. The way Annie McNamara played it. She's. She's turns, she goes, right, right, baby, you felt that. You feel the same way. And there's a beat and Sullivan Jones just goes, yeah, it was pretty hot. And she goes, oh, thank God. She. And she's like, great. He felt the same way. We're good. We're good. We're on the same page. And it's. I think that something that I feel like slave play as a. As a whole again, sort of touches on without truly wanting to get down deep in it. It's something I actually talked about in the Miss Saigon episode, which. How familiar are you with Miss Saigon the musical? Very familiar. Phenomenal. So then you know all about Ellen. Ellen who says, my husband of a year wakes up in the middle of the night sweating, screaming someone else's name, but we're totally fine. My husband. And then, and then like they. He tells her, oh, now you know, it turns out I've got a kid with this woman I. I shacked up with for two weeks in, In Saigon. They go out there, she finds out, oh, he loved her. Oh, they got kind of fake married. Oh, like whole. All these things he didn't tell me. And still, and still Ellen goes, we'll be okay. We're totally going to be okay. And if Miss Saigon were a more brave piece, if I know Nick Heitner is gay, but like, if there was one true straight hating homosexual on that writing team, like if there was a Tennessee Williams in the room, he'd be like, I need to have it more clear that Ellen is delusional and that this coupledom is doomed. And because in a way it's sort of like Jeremiah Harris is satirizing how we as a society, and I'm. I'm possibly totally projecting, but we as a society put such value on being part of a couple, of having a partner, of being in a relationship. It's always the ultimate goal and we will do whatever it takes to keep that relationship going. Even if it is so clear to everyone else in the room, you need to just walk away. This is done, this is dead. And I think all four couples in their way have a possibility of surviving and, and also a clear cut sign that it's dead. You know, as, as you brought up the way Philip and Alana started was through a cuckolding fantasy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Philip, who again, up until then is presented as sort of a himbo, has a major breakthrough. And unfortunately, it's a breakthrough to the detriment of his relationship with Alana, which is he's. Because part of the reason all these couples are there, because they're having intimacy issues. You know, Kenesha is not finding Jim sexual. Philip is having erectile dysfunction. Gary has been unable to ejaculate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And while they're there, you know, Kenesha's finally feeling sexual again. But it's at the cost of Jim feeling like they're being loving and intimate. Now. It's got to kind of be violent. Alana and Philip. Alana's got to shove something up Philip's butt to. And, you know, she's got to be the dominant one now, so to speak. Gary finally does ejaculate, and it's because Dustin is licking his boots. And then Tay and Patricia, we will get to. But they don't. They got nothing sexual going on there, and they are basically in lab coats. But, yeah, Philip realizes that he was never. He never had an issue with erectile dysfunction before. It was once he and Alana got together that he did. And it's because to him, you were saying, like, even though he's mixed raced, you know, he's both viewed for his race as his ethnicity, but then also not at the same time. He tells a story about being in boarding school because he had a relatively, you know, not, I would say prestigious, but like a upper middle class upbringing, I guess, is how we would say it. And he talked about, you know, being on the soccer field with all these white boys and. And being so much better than them at the sport. And then they're in the locker room and someone makes a comment about his genitalia and his race, and someone going like, oh, you know, he's not black. He's Philip.

[B]

And.

[A]

And he says, that's how you treat me. I'm not black. I'm. Philip goes, but I found it hotter when I was being fetishized because of my race. And why did you. First of all, why would you think that is for someone like Philip, who says so earnestly, I'm just, you know, like, says around the, you know, the group, you know, I don't know. I'm just this hot dude. I'm this, like, I'm walking sex, you know, and he says it so confidently and earnestly that it's funny, because even if it's true, it's like, who honestly looks in the mirror and goes, God, it's so difficult. I walk out every day and people just want to fuck me.

[B]

I mean, you know, we wish we all had that problem.

[A]

I literally make that joke to my mom all the time. She goes, matt, what's it. You know, what's your day to day? Like, I go, you know, mom, I leave the house, and people just want to fuck me. And I'm like, can I just buy my groceries? But for Philip, it's true. But.

[B]

No, it's. It's true. Your eyes go immediately to him. Like, he's just. He. He is a very attractive man, and. But he's talking to a. A thing that I feel like people don't really explore, especially black actor, black writers. It's. It's talking about kind of like there is power in being sexually fetishized. You know, one of the things that. In that locker scene, I mean, like, they're talking about his genitality, but, like, he's, you know, it's bigger than everyone else's. His body, you know, is more toned and more defined than everyone else's. You know, there. There's a power in that. And you kind of, you know, he's seen not just as a man, but as a superman, you know, and the. Where the hurt comes in is that, like, when you are in that invisible space where you're not black enough, you. You kind of have to find different ways, different vehicles to kind of, like, assert your blackness. That's why we have code switching. That's why we have, you know, we wear hair in our. And our clothes a certain way. There's a reason, you know, why we. Why we do certain things. You know, there's a meme going around right now about, like, black people who talk white, you know, like. And, like, kind of the stereotypes that come with that Philip is a black person who talks white. He's a. He's a black person who is Redistate. You wouldn't. You know, you would. You know, if you were in the middle of the night, someone would probably walk up to him asking him for help, you know, not the opposite. You wouldn't feel danger from him. Yeah, and. And. And while. And that could be a form of safety once again, because this is a piece about safe spaces and infinity spaces. It's also a space where you can feel isolated. And, like, on your. Your own island, you're. You know, you're on desert island. And that's what Philip is kind of like, you know, going through, I, I feel that like what, what Oharis is doing in that, with, with, with that particular character is very powerful. It's actually one of the best parts of the show, looking at their relationship because there's so many times where she's looking for, I don't think she's looking for affirmation. You know, she's looking for him to just kind of like go along with it, to agree. And that's so much of. For him to share that story and to kind of like make that reveal, I mean, about, oh, you just see me as Philip. That right there kind of like takes that away and it really kind of like shatters her. But she still, even through the tears, even through that revelation, she's still asking him to kind of go along with it.

[A]

Yeah, well, I, I think she cares for him and I, I, but I think, I think that again, first, first of all, I was looking up, by the way, I, I had to Google bird watching Karen. Her name was Amy Cooper.

[B]

I was like, is there a particular name or. I was like, is it Becky? Are we trying to say that, you know, Becky or.

[A]

Yeah, no, I think Becky, I think now is what we refer to as the other woman or the, or the woman that. Or the other person that your partner would like to be with or is flirting with.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah. Abacki. A Becky is, is, you know, so many. I mean, this is not explored in this particular piece, but usually a Becky is, it's short for Rebecca, but it's all, it's the light skinned or, or white woman. The person that like your partner goes with. Yeah, it's because, you know, because of just how America is. You know, there's a lot, there's a, you know, there's become a preference for white femininity and, and so you see a lot of men of color because white woman understands this kind of trophy kind of calling for like women of lighter complexion, light skin. So that's what the baggie is.

[A]

So, so Alana is a bit, is a bit of a Becky slash Amy Cooper. But no, I mean, I think Alana cares for Philip. But, but what he's saying is you are trying to erase my ethnicity and saying it, that it doesn't matter. No, Alana is the kind of woman who says, I don't see race. And.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

And he's, and, and Philip was like, no, no, no, see my race. You know, I, you know, I, I want to be worshiped for that and, and, or even fetishize for that. And you could argue that that itself is problematic. But it reminds me of. I couldn't find the article itself, but I was trying to find exactly what inspired O. Harris to write the play. Because I remember him saying he was like, at a dinner party or something and somebody was going on about a sexual experience they had and saying, you know, how hot it was and blah, blah. And Oharis just said like, very flippantly, well, how hot would that be if that person were black? Because it was something along the lines of like, role play and saying how hot the role play was. And Oharas basically was like, well, if they were black, like, would that still be hot? And I don't think he meant it in a way of saying you're problematic. I think he truly just wanted to sort of stick his finger in there and go, tada. And walk away. Like that's something he loves to do. It's very true. Mcapote. He's like, well, what about this? And then just, you know. Yeah, exactly. Strike the match. Oops, there was kerosene, Whatever. And I think that is sort of the question of, you know, when does it stop being hot and when does it become a problem? Because think about all the other things we fetishize the gay community, you know, oh, older men, so hot. Do we say, oh, I don't see eight. When we say age is just a number? It's like, well, no, your age is real because it speaks to your experiences and, and we. Where you are in your life mentally and emotionally. To say, to fetishize someone's body parts, their ass, their face, their hair. You think of how people are now using AI to come up with thirsty photos of Tom Holland on Instagram or Henry Cavill. And when does that go from being playfully thirsty to, oh, I'm actually fetishizing things that define who you are and, and your, Your subgroup. You know, when does it. As a, as a Jewish person, do I would. I find it offensive if someone's like, oh, you know, it's so hot. Those Jewish men. I go to see Fiddler and I just, I, I touch myself.

[B]

I mean, there are bagel queens, right? Like, that's.

[A]

Is that, Is that a term?

[B]

That's a term. Yeah, I think, like, people who like, look at, like, look after. Yeah, Bagel queens, I believe they're. Yeah, they're people who chase after Jewish men.

[A]

Marquez. I did not know this here on this here day. Is there a dating app for these people?

[B]

Because, yes, there are. There's a dating app for everything.

[A]

Now listen, If Philip and Alana Camino, whatever that app was that they talked about, that was specifically about white women looking for black men to. In front of their husbands, I'm like, there's got to be an app for everything. Is there an app for. For. Is there an app for rich older men who just want to cuddle and watch working girl? For younger Jewish boys who talk a lot? Because that is. If there is, I want to be on that app.

[B]

Grinder. I'm kidding.

[A]

Who the wants to cuddle on Grindr? Actually, no, there was a time. There was a time towards the end of lockdown and like, right as we were all exiting lockdown, when all people want to do on Grindr was like, talk and cuddle. And it was like a. It was a glorious nine months where people were actually trying to date on there. And then it went straight back to, yeah, Monkeypox. Yeah. Then it became straight back to, you know, pissing on my feet, daddy.

[B]

Spitting in people's mouths. Yes.

[A]

And speaking of spit. Speaking of spit and piss, I think we should now talk about the gay couple, Dustin and Gary.

[B]

Yes. Okay. Why? I think this is probably the. The better drawn relationship in. In the show is that kind of get a. A start in. We kind of get like a. A culmination of their relationship in this one act. Dustin is not as. He's a. He's. He's spicy white. You know, we don't know. He. You know, he's. He's a. He's a. Or with a white passing. Bipoc.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's essentially the gist. Because he's. What exactly. How does Oharas describe him in the character breakdown in the script? Because he says he is not white or like. Or he is white, but he's like the lowest form of white. Something like that.

[B]

It's a white man, but the lowest type of white. Dingy and off white. 28.

[A]

28. And I think the actor who played him on Broadway, James Moyer, I think. Yeah.

[B]

Kusati. More.

[A]

Yeah, I. I want to say he's half Hispanic, maybe. Yes, I think so. Yeah. But, you know, white passing and. And very much part of the script because Dustin gets offended anytime someone calls him white. And. And we'll get into all that in a second and. Because eventually Gary goes, you keep saying that, but what exactly are you. And that is never answered.

[B]

No, it's never answered by him or by. What is her name? Her name is Taya. Yeah. No, not Taya. Patricia. Because Patricia is a light brown woman who knows Many lives.

[A]

30. Oh, wait. Oh, sorry, I, I, I take that back because I, I, I, I don't know why I reversed them. I thought that Taa was the, is.

[B]

Is blended, she's black and white. Okay. And then Patricia is half, is, was half Latina, but, but only because of, she, she doesn't really say that either. She never like, she never says what she is. She just, you know, she just, when, when, when the conversation comes up, you kind of see kind of like her, her accent ever so shifts a little bit. She begins rolling for Rs. She begins, oh.

[A]

On, on, on the Broadway stage, Patricia did not, did not make that subtle. She fully went into Sofia Vergara. And, and to make it crystal clear to the, to Dustin that she sees him, she hears him now kindly shut the fuck up. Because Dustin was going off and going on and on about, you know, his heritage and I'm not white. And I'm feeling, you know, violence from Alana for saying only the white men are talking, I'm not white. And he like goes to the mirror to cry. And Patricia's like, forgive me everyone for this. But she says something along the lines of like, Dustin, I know you're feeling it. I must say as a, as a half white person myself, like, I see you, I feel you. It's like, now go back to the session and dust. The actor playing Dustin did this whole thing of like, the fuck. And then he realized that like they were in a similar boat, ethnically speaking. And she, she, she and Patricia and Taya for most of that group therapy session as they are, you know, it's their experiment. They are trying so hard, as we said before, like to keep an open, safe space and keep everything positive. You know, Tay is always like, yeah, that go woo. And always getting silenced. And you know, they're always interrupting each other but they get more and more frustrated as not only do they keep interrupting each other, but like people will have breakthroughs that aren't necessarily like the breakthroughs they're asking for or like, or, or they're, or they're just getting like fully frustrated with their subjects like these goddamn, like, can they shut the, like, yes, we're studying you, but can you also shut the up?

[B]

Yeah, no, it's, it's what becomes so fascinating about that, that conversation. Yeah, because Gary's talking, you know, he's a dark skinned black man, you know, and he's been in this relationship with this, you know, with, with, with Dustin. And so much of the relationship has been him kind of, you Know, being seen as, like, oh, you're with this, like, beautiful white man. You know, a white passing man. And, like, you should be lucky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and it's not something that he's saying to his partner, but it's something. It's how the world views them. And so when he's confronted with this, a lot of it is, you know, one of my favorite lines in the show, actually, which is. Which is they're talking about, like, you know, the role playing. At the beginning of it, he said, well, I said, you know, I'm an actor. Okay. I said, yes. And it's such a great line.

[A]

And the. The audience. I will say both when I saw it and then when I watched it at the library, the way he says, I'm an actor. The audience is already losing it. And because they're talking about, why did the improv stop? And they reveal Jim is the one who stopped the improv because he was uncomfortable. And Alana saying, I feel betrayed. We did all these. All this prep. We were told to go with it and not stop if we could help it. And as he said, dustin goes, I'm an actor. I said, yes. And the entire Golden Theater just erupted.

[B]

So funny. And. And, you know, and so you see, you know, he's really trying because, you know, there is love there. He, you know, let's be real. This is, you know, gay culture. There's, you know, there's a. There's a lot of. There's a lot of stereotypes with regards to, like, being faithful, you know, being monogamous, you know, kind of, like, you know, people abandoning the relationship. And this is a person who's really, you know, they're both young. They, you know. You know, I think they're, like, one of the youngest. I think they are the youngest couple.

[A]

Yeah. I believe Kenesha is this next youngest to them. She's supposed to be about almost, if not 30. Almost 30. And they're both, like, a year or two below her.

[B]

The doctors are kind of together, too, right? They're a couple.

[A]

Yeah, we'll get to that. Because, yes, they are. They are very much together. And their. Their togetherness is how this whole experiment came to be.

[B]

Yeah, this is a. A relationship that, like, you know, they've been around. They've been together, you know, for a little bit. Not. Not as long as everyone else. But this is. This is two people trying to kind of keep the relationship. Not that everyone else isn't trying, but, like, it almost feels like, you know, this is a person who really adores his partner and is trying to happen. And. But there's a lot of, a lot of conversations that he's not really privy to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that are, that are happening or that, that, or rather that he's just kind of oblivious to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And oblivious, you know, that, that obliviousness kind of seeps into the relationship and it's, and it's affected the, you know, his partner's inability to, to orgasm. And I, I think that I, I think that what, what O. Harris is looking at, particularly in this particular couple is like the value of, of a couple and how that can kind of give way in, in different ways to like, competition, you know, like in every couple, you know, this, this one is the smart one. This is the, this one over here is the cultured one. You know, this is the one. This is better looking one in the couple. And there's a lot of conversations that are happening that he's kind of not really privy to that Gary's kind of is having to illuminate to him. And so, so that's where we get to like probably the best monologue in the, the show, which is the, you know, I am the prize monologue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and that monologue, you know, he's, he's talking about kind of like the, you know, the lack of value. The value or rather the value system in the gay community in the, in the, in the community in general. But how these two people came together. And yet he has to put his partner like, almost without having to acknowledge it, like at all times. His partner is kind of on the pedestal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's kind of seen as, as this prize and, and he's having to, you know, there's a lot of, you know, you should, you should be thinking your lucky stars every day and falling on your knees because you got this like, you know, very attractive white man and, and how, and what, what that looks like on stage. And I feel like it's kind of the, the heartbeat in many ways of a lot of the problems that we see in other, all the other couples. He articulates it in the best way he can through that monologue.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and so I think what makes their dynamic fascinating and part of it's the writing, part of it was those actors because there was a moment when they're kind of at odds for most of that scene, even in the sexual role play, like they're part of what makes it fun to watch them is like sort of how ridiculous they're both sort of finding each other and trying to one up the other one, and there's. They. You know, they do this big, like, choreographed fight at the beginning, and they get. They get down to their underwear, and it's. They are. They are both very attractive men and thus with very incredible bodies. So, yeah. Yeah, they knew it. Robert o' Hara knew what he was doing when he was like, you gentlemen, you'll be in your underwear. Thank you very much. But there. There are. There would be moments during this session when the actors, James Cusadi Moyer and Ado Blankson Wood, when, like, Alana would say something kind of Alana ish, and they would kind of, like, give each other a look. And it would. It would be these moments of going like, oh, that's the couple that met. That's. That's the. When they met each other. That's the couple sort of still finding that connection through all of this. Part of it is, you know, as gay men, I think one of our love languages is judgment.

[B]

We.

[A]

Yes, that's very true, particularly of straight people. It's all like, if. If you and your. And your partner are having troubles, find someone out there who's straight and ridiculous. So you can look at each other and be like this, and I swear to God, like, that flame will start. Will start glowing again. But, yeah, there'd be, like, moments, the Lana, where they'd be like this, or sometimes Philip would say something philippy, and they'd be like, is he for real? And it would just be. It would just be looks that they would give each other or, like, holding each other. And it's very smart, intricate direction of actors to make sure that those moments happen. Because out, you know, outside of me, maybe Jim and Kenesha. Actually, no, I would say Tam. Patricia also don't really have this, but maybe that's just because they're working like Philip and Alana. You see moments in their dynamics, in the way they are with each other. You're like, oh, I see how this was, you know, maybe nice once, you know, you still. There's still a communication there. There's still a love there. Even if there's a lot of. There are a lot of obstacles right now. And the same is true of Dustin and Gary. But what also Oharis does is, you know, has these characters speak what is ultimately truths of the world and also their truth, but maybe not necessarily the truth of the relationship, if that makes sense. Like, they'll say something and it's rooted in truth because the world has proved it. So. And their feelings are their feelings, but he's also saying, like, it's not necessarily fact, because when Gary does do the I am the prize speech, says to Dustin, when we met, it was so lovely. You were so beautiful. But. And I also felt like, you know, you were presenting yourself to me as this prize. He goes, and that's how the world sees us. And motherfucker, I'm the prize. And he's like, and that's why I was able to come, because you were worshiping me for once. And, you know, he And. And. And speaks uninterrupted. And it's. And part of the reason why it's filled with a lot of vitriol is to his credit. Taya and Patricia are like, I think Gary and Dustin should speak right now. And they should be allowed to speak from a place of aggression, which is never the best advice for couples. Be like. Like you're angry. Speak on that anger. Like, say everything you want to say right now from a super angry place. Just do it. Don't worry about it. Like, all, all good. And it's like, no. Because when you're angry, you often say stuff in the heat of the moment that you don't always mean. It's just because you need to get the bile out. And Gary's getting a lot of the bile out. And when he finishes, Dustin doesn't let him walk away. He. It's. It's a very cunning just. What does that mean? You know? You know, he says all this stuff and again, to me, and I would love to hear your thoughts on how true you think it is in their actual relationship or if it's just true to Gary or if it's true just sort of on the thematic level. But Gary says all this stuff, and then Dustin basically, with maybe four or five lines, cuts through it, and it's just like, that's not all true and you know it. That's not like, literally what he says. But the. What does that mean? He. He makes rather than Gary basically emotionally vomit all over Dustin and get to walk away. He holds him in the room after he's done it. And I would have loved it if it could have gone a little further, but instead it goes right to violence, which I. I get on an emotional level that is very Tennessee Williams esque, but like it. For me, it sort of. It shows how there's so much about this play where I see the meat and I see what so many people love about it. And I think that there's so much of this play that's worth discussing, and it is A worthy play to have in the canon. But ultimately, why I think it's not a good play because for all these moments where I'm like, yes, the steam train's gone. We're going, we're going. It gets smashed in by something else. And that is a brilliant. It's a wonderful problem to have of a writer who's got a million thoughts and can talk about them so insightfully. And then I'm like, okay, Jeremy, I need someone to come up to you and be like, we need to cut five of your points and put them in a folder for another play.

[B]

Well, that. That happened. And he said, no. I mean, okay.

[A]

I wasn't gonna say it. Marcus, do you remember what you said to me when I saw another play by a black writer last year? And I said, it felt like I needed another draft.

[B]

Oh, I. Yes.

[A]

I. You had asked me, like, you were like, oh, what do we think? And I was like, I mean, it's a really cool idea. There's a lot of good stuff going on. But, like, it needs another draft. Do you remember what you said?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Would you like to say it now on Maynard, or are you gonna make me say it?

[B]

What did I say? Oh, okay. Yes. With. With black playwrights in particular, there are a lot of these institutions get a little scary, and they. They get. They, they. They. They don't want to. I think this is what I said. Yeah. A lot of institutions, a lot of theaters get. Get very afraid, and they don't want to. To push back. They're. They're kind of, you know, and it's not a. It's not a nicety that we get in this. In this industry. You know, a lot of. A lot of non bipoc playwrights, I'll just say that they. They get to get to be in these spaces and they get to develop their work, and they. They get put through the wringer, and you get, like, this beautiful gourmet mill at the end of it. And people win Pulitzers with black and bipoc writers. So much of that is so. There's so many people afraid of conflict. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing. They're giving the tension. And so what happens is that you get an easy Bake Oven meal sometimes. And I can definitely say it was like half the plays that went to Broadway that year, particularly. Can you bleep this?

[A]

Yeah, I trust you. I didn't. I didn't get a chance to see it.

[B]

Oh, that was not a good play.

[A]

Well, first of all, they were having Cancellations due to Covid left and right. And then they just closed up shop. So I just never. I never got a chance.

[B]

Well, I mean, there was another. There was a revival that had a similar title with all black women.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

And that was done. That was a much more successful play, let's just say that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And a lot more timelier than the one that we got from this male perspective. Let's just say that.

[A]

Yes, that play was. That revival you. You speak of was. It is a beautiful play, very much of its time. I will say, having seen that revival, I was like, oh, this was definitely written in the 70s. Or this was definitely, like cultivated in the 70s. Like, you definitely get that public theater vibe. But. But, you know, there's still so much beauty to it. And then was just very wonderfully done with that cast and director.

[B]

Still very timely. Timely. Like, I mean, I know a lot of people. I'm sure I went with a director of mine and just so many of the conversations, you know, that she felt. And she's a white Jewish woman. It was a piece that just really spoke to her. And a lot of black women that were around us spoke to them. I did not feel that with this other play.

[A]

Well.

[B]

With this particular play.

[A]

Yeah, with. With. Not. Not slave play we're talking about.

[B]

We.

[A]

We've bleeped so much. We're talking about a specific other play. But I'm glad you mentioned that because I want to go into some more stuff now with this play and all plays in general. But before we do that, Marques, guess what we gotta do?

[B]

Go on a break.

[A]

Gotta go on a break. Billy, I beg to differ with you. How do you mean? You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble thread of the. And we're back. Okay, so can I tell you a pet peeve of mine?

[B]

Go for it.

[A]

Thank you so much. First of all, people who chew gum with their mouth open. Second, the mentality of art, of it only being for one subgroup of people, whatever that subgroup is. Yes, I am all for. And maybe having a slightly more special place for. For that theatergoer due to the closeness of the material. I have said this before. I. It'll be years until I can tell you objectively if I think Significant Other is an actually good play or not. It is simply too close to my life that I was like. I'm like, I'm sorry. I just cry. I can't. I did a Whole episode on it where I tried to talk about it objectively, and ultimately Adam and I were like, I can't do it. I just can't. But that's, I'm aware of that and that, and that's fine. But I think wonderful art is this window into a world that maybe it's yours or it's a world you don't know very well, and it should be able to reach across the aisle and grab more people than just who it's about. And, and as you were saying with the revival of that 70s play, you know, it reached to the black woman in the theater, the white woman. You were with, I'm assuming with yourself. You didn't say so.

[B]

But I'm with myself. Yes.

[A]

Yes. Not to Alana, your Philip, but I, I, that's how we felt.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, that's good. So we've got two new shorthands today, by the way. We have when such and such entered the chat. And not to Alana, you're Philip, but. Which is like, not to speak for you, but yeah, I think that that is the power of really compelling theater and emotional theater.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, but also theater to me should also challenge your preconceived notions or just, or what you just think is acceptable. One of my favorite shows of last, not this, not the season, but last year was Downstate. I thought Downstate was brilliant.

[A]

Mother. I did a whole episode about Downstate. Where were you when I did that? I. You weren't answering your DMS that day. And now you. And, and you lost the chance to talk about Downstate.

[B]

Sorry, but no, I thought Downstate was absolutely, you know, brilliant and it made people uncomfortable. And it's a show that should go to Broadway. It's a show that should transfer. It's just, it's a show that should be taught in schools. You know, it's. But it's because of the, of the, of the, of the subject matter and because people discomfort, or rather even their ability to just communicate why they're just, why they're uncomfortable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That, that, that, that created a. I feel like we're gonna, we're gonna get a little less challenging theater at least for another year.

[A]

Yeah, it's worth. Yeah, definitely. With musicals, I gotta say, it's been, it's fucking, it's like a, it's like a deserted Dylan's candy store right now. You know, it's, it's the remnants of, of high priced sugar. It's not even like actual sugar right now, but the. I think first of all, like, with all art, all mediums, there's world. There's room for every genre, as long as it's good. And what's good is, of course, subjective. But, you know, go fuck everyone. Go fuck themselves. I've got perfect taste, so I'll tell you what's good, but.

[B]

Same thing.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Just ask me. I'll tell you, but I. When you're looking for something with meat on the bone, when you're looking for something to actually talk about, it should be many things. It should be challenging, it should be compelling, it should be engaging. I mean, I think for every downstate, there is a play that tries to tackle heavy subject matter but does so in such a condescending, this is going to be like eating your goddamn vegetables way that it turns off audiences and they mistake the. Them not liking the presentation for them not liking the subject matter, and downstate for all of its darkness. First of all, funny, there's. Yeah, yeah. When people ask about downstate, I'm like, you don't understand how funny that play was. And, you know, in the same way, Pillow Man, I mean, did you ever read or see Pillman?

[B]

It's one of my favorite plays. I love Pillow Man.

[A]

I knew I liked you, baby. So. But, like, McDonough at his best, and believe me, like, he's not always been his best, but, like, at his best, which I do think is Pillow man. And I think that play is one of the best plays of the century. Turns your stomach one second and makes you laugh out loud the next. You're on pins and needles for five minutes, and then all of a sudden you, like. They cut the tension with this amazing joke. And it's. The best way I can describe it is the opening shot of Pillow man is Katerian Katurian in a investigation room, blindfolded under, like, a lamp. And it's all darkness around him, and it's a terrifying image. And he's just sitting there for, like, two minutes in silence. And then the investigators come in and they take off the blindfold. They go, why did you have this on you? And he goes, well, they brought me in here with it. And they go, yeah. And then they left you in here alone for 10 minutes? You didn't take it off? He goes, I didn't think I was supposed to. They go, like, what? Like, are you an idiot? Like. Like. Like you were in a handcuffed. You could have taken this off at any time. And it's such a great way to cut the tension. But then they go back to the Tension. And, I mean, I think, you know, if you're going to give people something challenging, you have to give them a little bit of grace. You can't. What Alana doesn't realize is she can't give Philip every inch of that dildo. She's got to start slow.

[B]

That was a great segue.

[A]

Thank you, motherfucker. This is. I get paid now to do this. I get paid dimes upon dimes upon nickels, but I get paid. And. And, you know, when Alana enters that dildo into Philip and she goes, do you like that? He goes, I don't know, mistress. And then she does all of it. And he shouts, I don't know. And it's like, yeah, girl, you of all people should know. You don't do all seven inches at once. Especially with your man who hasn't had a sniff of poppers. You gotta them into it. There's also no lube on that thing. You just stuck it in.

[B]

Just kind of spit and stuck it in. It's like, my God, it's.

[A]

I was gonna say, like, are we. Is this Brokeback Mountain all of a sudden? Where a little bit of spit goes a long way. My own mother, who never has had gay sex, told me when I came out and we saw Brokeback Mountain, that that was not enough for gay sex.

[B]

No. And he just had beans. And so it was just like. That was just bad for gay culture.

[A]

That was bad for gay culture. Everything else about that movie is glorious for gay culture. But that one moment. But to bring this back to art, Marcus. But you know, for something like slave play, let's say, which is. Has a lot of challenging things about it. I think what the Broadway production did well was first of all was a very stylized presentation. You know, you enter the theater and there's a wall of mirrors and Astroturf, and they're playing Rihanna. And it's all it already is. Telling you, this is not realistic looking. Yeah. You're going to see something that's going to go outside the norms of necessarily realism. But then it's also the double edge sort of like, oh, but by the way, because of the mirrors, you're always going to be able to see yourself at any given time, no matter what's happening on stage.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And see. And see everything of the actors as well while you're up there. Yeah.

[A]

I. When I went on Instagram, by the way, and I was like, hey, guys, what do you want us to talk about with this play? Four or five different people said, can you please Talk about Paul Alexander Nolan's nudity. It was glorious. It's one of my favorite memories of theater. Moving on. I love that the man is. Is a. Is a perfect individual. That's all I'll say.

[B]

You know, like. Well, you wouldn't. You wouldn't see it, but it was giving Statue of David vibes. It's like, wow. It was like, you know, hiding on all those clothes. What. What I think is so to use. To go back to your. Your image about. About the. The meat on the bones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think what slave plays problem is that, like, there's a lot of meat, but it's. There's a lot of fat. It's. And. And, you know, you could put it in a slow cooker and just let fat fall off, but this is a person who likes a lot of fat on their. On their meat, you know, and that's what we're seeing. That's what. What the last bit of. Of that play. It also. It also, too. And this is. You know, I think we can say this. It's not really a secret, but, like, it's very indicative of the Yale play, the Yale style of playwriting. Let's be real. You know, a lot of these playwrights, they graduate, they. They get their resin, you know, their residencies and so forth and so on. This is a playwright who shot out of the cannon, who. This is like a Yale that. I don't even think this is his thesis play because he wrote a play called Yale, and that was his thesis play. Yeah.

[A]

I think this was the idea for this play was part. It was part of his application for Yale, but he hadn't actually written it. He was like, I have this idea.

[B]

Yeah, because he had. He had written Daddy, and that was the play that got him into Yale. Yes. He says, yes, Very different play, but also in conversation many ways with slave play. Because I actually. A lot of people's. Their problems with slave play and how. How can he just treat it. I felt with Daddy and how the mother is treated in Daddy. Are you familiar with Daddy?

[A]

Yeah. It's about a young black gay man who enters into a relationship with an older white European art collector. Right. And his mother, played by Charlene Woodard, is basically like, absolutely not. I hate this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And there's a pool. And there was a pool. I remember that.

[B]

Yes. She's a religious zealot, but she's a. She's. She's just. Who comes from a very religious background. And I feel like it's a play for, like, black men. Who hate their. Their mothers.

[A]

And it's so ironic because he was like, I wrote it as a love letter to my mother. And it's like, really?

[B]

No. I felt like every person, every. Every person who had poof out loved that play had some kind of like, confrontation with their mother. Like, hated their mother, was not speaking to their mother. Yeah. And that's what it felt like. And that's what it read off. Like, I don't see it as a love. Love letter to the mother. I felt like this is a relationship that doesn't. And I feel like. And a lot of her coming there is not only to, you know, not to save his soul, but to like. But she's seeing this relationship with this very toxic older white man. Basically, like, she calls him a vampire sucking the. Sucking his youth away. So, you know, who wants certain things? And, and at the end of the play in this like one scene, it's like she says something that a mother would. I don't think would ever say to her child. And it really turns the audience against her in that last scene. And we've been watching the show for like two hours now, and she's just one monologue and then she like, leaves and we never see her. And it ends with her with, with. With him being infantilized and basically like sucking the teeth of this white man. And it's, it's, it is just. There's something about that infuriated me. I left more angry than anybody that I kind of left sleep, like, confused. This right here angered me. And I went away because I was like, wow, you really hate. Like, I, I didn't want to think that, but like, it felt like, wow, you really hate black women.

[A]

Yeah. To be clear, I don't think that the play is a lover to his mother. I'm saying I. Because I think Daddy was. Daddy being done this spring, that Slave Play was at New York Theater Work because Slave Play was a New York theater workshop in the winter of 2018.

[B]

And that was done in the sum. The spring summer.

[A]

Okay, so. Yeah. So it was in between both Slave plays then. Yeah, because I. There was an article about how he was basically, as you said, shot out of a canon slave Play, had a developmental production at Yale, immediately got a reading at New York Theater Workshop. And they're like, we're doing it. We're also going to do Daddy. And he also. He co wrote Zola while all this was going on. Because that went into production. Yeah, like around. Right before. Right around the time Slave Play was being done off Broadway. So he was just like. He was everywhere. And so the article I read about all that they were talking about that he was like, yeah, it's a love letter. It's like my mom. It was like, is it.

[B]

Don't forget, around this time he also had that show at the Bushwick Star, that one man show of his.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Yeah. So it's just, it's, you know, it's a very indicative. This play is very indicative of the Yale style of playwriting where kind of you get, you know, their plays are filled with a lot of provocative images, but they also kind of feel like a fever dream. That's not that, you know, that you kind of get snapped out of sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And by the time you snapped out of it, you're like, what did I just watch? And a lot of this play is, even though it seems like he's kind of running away from that style while holding on to his own voice, it's still very indicative of the style of drama where it almost feels like it needs another edit. And so, yeah, one of the things about this particular play, and I think at the height of Slave Play, right before Abby, right before he went to Broadway, because one of the conversations. One of the reasons why I feel that maybe I didn't win anything is because there was a lot of. There was conversations happening with young Gene Lee, I believe, who is one of the mentors for. For O. Harris. And so a lot of things kind of came to light about the behind the scenes of the play that, that, that, you know, about, like how she wanted it to, you know, to be edited. And he said no. And that created a kind of like a schism between them. We kind of see that schism on the page. I mean, like, you know, because, you know. Yes, like me, you know, I do feel that, like, he's a writer, he needs to be able to have, you know, to keep his creativity, to keep his, you know, keep his impulses, to kind of keep. To like, you know, the, the. The musings of that play, what fed that play originally. You know, I feel like you do have to keep that as a writer. You know, just kind of like, you know, this is like the main idea of this play. This is the main. This is the, the germ of this idea for this play. And I feel like this is very important and you should, like, dig your heels in sometimes. But at the same time, if you are working with some of the greatest writers in America, maybe sit back, you know, shut up and like, and just kind of just Write a draft or, you know, or an edit. Just where you take their advice. You can still hold on to this other draft. It doesn't mean you're losing your. The soul of your piece. But just to see what they were talking about, you might learn something.

[A]

And, yeah, God forbid you learn something. Right. I feel like. So as we were hinting at earlier, and I think now this is. And as you just sort of brought it back into the chat, this is sort of where the play ended up kind of dooming itself with the Tony Awards. And no one really realized it until they walked home empty handed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I also think this play and its reputation in the community is a really phenomenal example of what I have often spoken about on this podcast and sometimes talk about on Instagram.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is do not mistake what people are saying publicly for what they actually feel, especially with Broadway, because. And actually, you know what? Okay, this clip is making the rounds everywhere on social media right now, which is. Tina Fey was just on Las Culturistas, a podcast that I probably. Probably listen to every five months. So for those who haven't seen it, Tina Fey was on and they're doing. I don't think so, honey. What she said was, authenticity is expensive and dangerous. And in this industry, people don't really want negative feedback, even if it's constructive. They just want to be praised. I don't think that's everyone. There are some people who absolutely are willing to take it. And it's part of why we go through very long stretches of valleys of artistry in all of these mediums. It's why we were having, like, a golden age of television for a while, but not at all with film and theater. And we're like, kind of having a renaissance with film right now, but only kind of. And, yeah, we gotta see what happens the next, like, two years. Because this past year we had a really good year. And the year before that was also, like, pretty solid, if not incredible horror.

[B]

Last year was like. Was an amazing year for horror. I can't remember all films, but I'm.

[A]

I'm Thanksgiving. I'm gonna watch that year round. I need. I need that movie in my veins. But honestly, same thing with Saltburn. Like, I'm watching. Saltburn is a mess of a film, but I'm watching it every Christmas with. With orphans.

[B]

With orphans, yes.

[A]

To teach them the ways of the world.

[B]

It's gonna be in my head for a very long time. And I might. I might, you know, made me interested in going to the random cemetery and A grave.

[A]

So for a minute I was like, did Jeremy O. Harris write this? But, so, but I bring this up just to say, you know, when I do my reviews on Instagram, which I don't love to do, because they're just, they're difficult to write. And, and, you know, for every positive feedback you get, the negative feedback I get is always just like, I disagreed with you. And no one will have the discourse. They're just like, you're wrong. I'm like, okay, well, thanks, Janet. But they'll say to me, so, like, I, I did a review on Back to the Future back in the fall, and I had people message me through, like, can't you support when a show is doing well? Like, actors want to work and all this stuff. And I sit here and I go, I wish I could tell you what Broadway actors actually think of Back to the Future, the musical, what they actually think of xyz. Because just because they go see the show, tag their friends on, on their stories, that they're seeing them like, oh, break legs. So and so. And this, like, I could fill a book with the number of Tony nominees and winners and Broadway millionaires who have messaged me and been like, can we talk about X? And I'm like, and first, I'm like, always happy to dish, but also I'm like, talk about X on main. Like, you don't have to be rude, but like, what good does it do to say one thing publicly and feel another way privately? And with Slave Play, this is how we get back to this now. We went, we started with Tina Fey. We're back to Slave Play. It's all, thank you. It's all a Madame Web, if you will. But with Slave Play, there was the public collective thought of this new playwright who we must all get behind, who wrote something that is in the conversation, people would go off about how brilliant it was and then privately have another conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that wasn't being addressed until the Tonys actually happened because they get the 12 nominations, the most of any play ever and probably ever will get, and they proceed to lose every single one. And we can argue whether Slave Play or Inheritance is better. I will say my piece on Inheritance in the Inheritance episode, I. I think honestly, for my money, I probably would have voted for the Sound Inside that year. Although I don't know if I thought the play was brilliant or I thought it was just a great production of the play. When, you know, Slave Play goes into that ghastly Tony's, everyone going, it's going to win it's just a matter of how many Tonys will it win? And when they proceed to not win any. The conversation then turned to, oh, can we now openly discuss how we actually felt about this play? Which isn't to say that everyone hated it, but more like. More critics came out of the woodwork about problems that they had with it, and more importantly, problems they had with Jeremy as an individual.

[B]

Yes. But here's the. Once again, this is, like, where we go back to one of our original points, which is, like, looking at institutions and having those conversations, you know, like. Because, like. You know, like. Like, he. Yes, he's a young playwright. Yes. He's getting grants galore. He's making the money. He's on, you know, he's got Story in vogue in the New York Times. You know, he's. He's got a poster in Times Square on. On the night of the Tonys.

[A]

You know, like, he's giving opinions on the second season of Euphoria, telling them what he thinks should happen next.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? Like, he's making, like, waves. And. And he still is much quieter now, but, like. But he. He. He had a. His career just took off in this. In this way. And to be real, I mean, we haven't seen a real fashionista in the theater community for some time. We had somebody as outspoken as him. And so I think that he was. He is. He. He was needed for that time there. But at the same time, these institutions were doing exactly what the white people in this play were doing, which was like, they didn't want to say the wrong thing, as, you know, they were taking notes about levels of comfort and the press and these critics were doing the same exact thing. Yeah, it's almost like. It's like they were, you know, we're all seeing the same thing, Were experiencing the same thing. And that spoke to a. A deeper thing in the. In the culture, actually, because we were all, you know, we were all seeing the same production. We're all seeing the same show. I mean, I don't think anything really changed from Broadway to Off Broadway, and. Sorry, Off Broadway to Broadway. And a lot of the critiques stayed the same. Everyone I talked to. Yeah, nothing's changed. It's the show on a bigger stage. And people just felt this desire, this burning desire to kind of keep these toxic or what they thought was toxic thoughts to themselves rather than having that dialogue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, for better or worse, Jeremy O. Harris is going to. It has made history. Jeremiah Harris, whether he wants to be known as that or not. He's a top money nominated writer. You know, he's got. But with a look at this becomes an issue of a career now and which is looking at Zola because Zola. A lot of the critiques for Zola were kind of similar, which is like one, it's an adaptation of tweets, and the tweets, when you read the tweets, are better than the movie, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But more interesting. The movie's good, but when you've read the tweets, it's. It pills in comparison.

[A]

Yeah, it's. Well, it's. That's true of any. Of any, you know, source material with movie. It's very rare when a movie improves on the book, like Delvora's. Prada is one of the very few. But Zola, the movie is very good. There are times when it slaps really hard, and then other times you're like, I think I'll go get a beverage now.

[B]

Oh, this is a road movie. Well, let me, you know, let me get something for the road. Yeah, let me. Let me get some popcorn. Let me.

[A]

Well, similar to Slave Play, I think part of what makes Zola pop is the direction of it. It's got a beautiful eye and the actors are all fucking fantastic. The script itself, when it's at its best, is when it is directly quoting the. The Twitter thread.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. And you know when they're doing it because they play the. The tweet sound effects.

[B]

Yes. And it's a similar thing. I mean, you know, this is a person. This is a writer, like a lot of writers. It's not just a read for. On Jeremy Harris. This is just the industry in general. A lot of people need a scalpel. They need to have some come in and, you know, read through the script.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you need to workshop. That's what they're for, you know, and this is a person where people just felt. And I think just because he is so vocal, he, you know, you know, he does have a certain authority about him. Yeah. They didn't want to say anything, but that's a problem with the industry, I think. Like, it was very unfair, actually. I mean, you know, I. It was not one against. Once again, it's not my favorite show, but it was definitely one of the better shows that, you know, the. The year that it originally went up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And for better or worse, it deserved, you know, it deserved a nomination. I'm not sure if it deserved a win, but, like, but out of the show, out of the plays, and things that did win, I mean, was that, that was the year that Inheritance won.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. So I would disagree with that. I would think that like, at least it, you know, at least this play stuck the landing in a way. It's not my, it's not my ending.

[A]

It's not, it's, it stuck the landing it set out for. Even if it's not the landing I.

[B]

Wanted, it's not the landing I wanted. But, and, and I can't really say that about, about the other play. But what I would, but I, I, I think that like with the, you know, I think the conversation that people needed to have was just how these institutions treat people of color who happen, you know, who are playwrights, who are, you know, theater makers. I, you know, we have like, you know, this past year we had, what is it? We had. Oh my God, English just won the Pulitzer. And I think was that other show it was nominated for, it was a.

[A]

Finalist for the Pulitzer.

[B]

Yeah, it was a show that, oh my God, I saw it. I saw it. Basically why those worked is because I felt like these are writers who were, you know, they got the, they got the, the reason why English got what it's, it's, it won the Pulitzer is because you could see the work. You could see not saying that slave play didn't have rigor, you know, but this is, you could see that there was workshops, there was, there's people were, you know, there's dramaturks or people, you know, I assume there was dramaturgs, but there, there was just a lot of attention. There was a lot of years, you know, I've known about English for several years, you know, before it was produced. And you know, you could see that this is a writer who was making the rounds, who was working on this play, working on this play, working on this play and really kind of whittling it down to its essence. And we, and what we got is this award winning play that's going to be done around the nation, the entire nation. And I'm glad that those particular plays got that. But I feel that especially with bipoc writers, particularly black playwrights, you don't really get that love. You know, people kind of dance around it. People feel like they can't really say what they need to, to make the work shine. It's almost, it's actually like it's up to the devices of the writers to make a will and make a way to get that play or that musical.

[A]

Even.

[B]

You know, develops you like, you have to like fine tooth, you Know, kind of put everything through a fine tooth comb to make it work. And. And you're doing the work of these institutions, and that doesn't really create a way for a career. And so right now you're kind of seeing the fruits of that. I mean, Jeremy O. Harris is definitely how he has a career, but like, you know, now with the legacy so far of his work is a lot of, like a lot of great ideas, but a lot of half finished pieces.

[A]

Were you talking about On Sugar Land? Was that the play?

[B]

I think I might be confused.

[A]

The far country.

[B]

So those are the three.

[A]

Those are the three that. Those are the three from last year. Yeah.

[B]

That's confusing it with the year before, which is.

[A]

That was fat ham selling Kabul. Christina Wong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So I also say, I think part of another reason why maybe with. With Slave Play in particular, why some people might have had hesitation with expressing criticism is for something like Slave Play, which is very hot with its topics, how it approaches it, how it talks about it, how it makes you talk about, opened up the floodgates for really stupid discourse. Not, not from them, but from people who came to see it. And for a minute, there was a really, really stupid, you know, swarm of white people who went online to talk about how anti white it was, how racist it was towards white people. There was that talkback they did where like a white woman was shouting at Jeremiah Harris. This play is racist. Yeah, no, Amy Cooper at 90 was who this woman was. And I. And you don't want to be associated with that when you're like, hey, like, I had an issue, but like, I. Please don't. The police don't feel that. Like, I'm not saying it's racist. Like, I have, I have issues with, like, the structure. I have issues with, like, the longevity of this speech, things like that. Like the person I was on the date with who said, like, this point confused me, but maybe I'm just dumb. And I was like, no, let's talk about it, because it's very possible you're not dumb and that this was just confusing.

[B]

Yeah, no, I. I think that, honestly, I think he gave white people a lot of grace in that piece. I think that, like, if you're a black person leaving the theater, you actually feel a lot more. A lot more unsure, a lot more, you know, a lot more enraged and a lot more. And almost like it's, you know, in a way, I mean, a lot of the conversations I had with a lot of theater people, particularly black people in theater, was how well of course they're going to produce this because, you know, it has. It's. It's. It's almost like you're re. Traumatizing your theater.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People, you know, and so when you leave, there's a lot of people who, you know, a lot of black women felt angry. There's a lot of conversations around that, you know, a lot of conversations about, you know, while people love that, that, that I'm the prize speech. There was a lot of anger around, like, you know, for black gay men, you know, about how we come off, you know, or. Or kind of the messages that are in the piece and. And also just how we. We kind of still don't go hurt or, you know, a lot of the things that he brings up kind of gets washed away shortly after he says it.

[A]

Yeah. This may sound. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. This may sound unfair to the play. This is how I felt at the time. And I'm debating if I truly still feel this way, If. If I may be hateful to progressive white people for a minute. My thinking of that, of slave play for a while, especially once we hit Covid and, you know, there was a whole. No discourse of white people, do the work. You know, stop relying on the black people, you know, to educate you. Like, go out and do the work yourself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And especially when it came back. But I felt this way in 2019. I was like, this feels a bit to me like a play that white people go to see and they feel like they're doing the work because they just sat there for two hours. Yeah. Okay, fantastic. I'm glad that I don't. That this is totally in my own head, but that. But that was reinforced for me. Speaking of this actually quite good year of film with the movie American Fiction, which was adapted by Cor Jefferson and starring now Oscar nominee Jeffrey Wright. Thank God. But that. I mean, for anyone who hasn't seen American Fiction, I highly recommend that you do. So it is probably, I would say that and Barbie are the two top contenders for adapted screenplay this year. And Twitch, I'm like, God bless. I'm happy with either one to win. Wait. Ah, there she is. Scatters a little screener there. But, you know, for anyone who doesn't know American fiction, it's basically satirizing the trend of quote, unquote, cultured white people fetishizing the trauma of black people in pop culture, in books, in film, in theater, and. And labeling it as important and. And groundbreaking because it makes them feel like they have done Work. Whereas black people see it and go, this is regressive. This is trivial. This is re. Triggering my trauma. And why Just so white people can feel like they've. They've read a book today. But of course, that's just like our truth. I'm sure there are other people who feel very differently than that. But it. I think it's important to talk about it because it's in its own way, a way of challenging, a mind frame that made certain people comfortable in that scenario. If the white characters of Slave Play were comfortable in their relationships, how they began and now feel like something's wrong and only. And are there for breakthroughs, they have to be comfortable. If those breakthroughs don't actually benefit them, if it just benefits their partner. Yeah. But also.

[B]

What the audience wound up doing, that discourse that happened, that followed the Tonys, I mean, they wound up doing almost. It became sickle. It, you know, like kind of, you know, like. Like the snake eating its tail, you know, these are white people centering themselves in a narrative that is literally about black people trying to be seen. Yeah. You know, and. And yet, I mean, in a lot of. A lot of. In a lot of that. I mean, a lot of the conversations that people weren't really having. I mean, black people were having them, but they weren't, you know, it was. It wasn't a conversation that was really being had in those spaces, even. Even on Black Knight, you know, like. Like, black people weren't having these conversations, like, in the theater.

[A]

No. There was an article in them by a woman who was talking about having seen it on Broadway on one of the blackout nights. And it was when Slave Play was closing in la and it was basically like, you know, she was saying, like, I. I now feel comfortable talking about how I really feel about the play. And it's similar to what you were saying was, you know, she was saying, I felt very angry and confused and traumatized. But when I walked out there, I was in the bathroom and another black woman was like, that was good. Right? And she goes, it was, it was. And the woman's like, no, that was good. Right. And then they, like, walked out of the bathroom to talk to some white women so they could, like, talk about the play in a very, like, you know, isn't that wonderful way. But she said, like, it felt like, no, no, no, you're going to go out there, you're going to tell everyone. That was good.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's because of, like, black solidarity. Yeah.

[A]

Which I'm Listen, I wish gays had more that had more of that these days when it came to our stories. At the very least, it's just like, let's go see it and we can judge it of how it is in the tapestry of gay stories down the road. But, like, right now, let's just go and support. Because we used to do that. We used to be a country, Marcus, and we, we used to go support all the gay playwrights, and now we're like, that's not my story. Burn it with fire.

[B]

No, it's true. It's true. I mean, we saw that with, with another play like that that came out shortly after A slave play. A slave play? Strangely, yes.

[A]

Oh, sorry. I was, I was gonna make a joke, and I couldn't think of a. I couldn't think of a show fast enough. I was gonna be like, oh, are we talking about Girl from the North Country? Oh, my God, that queer canon.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, no. Strange Loop. Strange Loop is kind of like halfway between the Inheritance and Slave Play in terms of, like, the gay discourse. Because it was, yeah, it was like gays being like, that's not my story. Fuck this. And then you also had people being like, how dare they make me feel racist? I'm sitting here doing the work, am I not? And it's like, that's not what this is about, you idiot.

[B]

Yeah, I wouldn't say in terms of quality of the play, but, like, I would say in terms of disc.

[A]

Strange Loop has a Pulitzer for a reason.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, but, but yeah, I, I, I would say that, like, yeah, the, the discourse around that became kind of conversations about, you know, what is the inner white girl and, you know, black fetishization and, you know, and, but also, like, what does it mean to be gay in a post Truvada? Like, you know, Erica. And I would say with both the Inheritance and. Yeah, there's a lot of overlap and both thematically, but also with this course at that time, with that play, with that musical. Yeah, I think that this. With Slave, plenty did. Was it created a thing within at least the black theater community where, yeah, you had to kind of say, like, it's a great play, and then you have this comic plays with your friends in private, you know, to talk about it. And, But I didn't serve. But who did that serve you? Yes, people were having that conversation. But, like, what, what happens with these institutions? I mean, we saw, you know, and it, and this is, was, this is not just indicative of Slave Play. We saw this with the eight play Eight or nine plays that were on Broadway. That kind of. That. Those. Those. Those. I called them kind of like the sacrificial lambs, you know, because all these black plays that opened the season.

[A]

Yeah. That many of them that weren't ready to come.

[B]

Yeah. And they were just. They were all closed early. I mean, some of them were better than others. You know, like, I. You know, I thought Chicken and Biscuits was a show that could have stayed open. You know, it was a very funny play. You know, would I say that it was a pillow surprise? No, but, like. But, like, did it have an audience? Was it a show that we, you know, this. If we're talking about Broadway, if we're talking about, like, a place that's really. I mean, it's. It's not really, you know, an artistic bastion. If you want, like, artistic. I would say if you really want an artistic experience in theater, I would say go Off Broadway. Off Broadway, theaters, money's made. Right. But you can find artistic fulfillment on Broadway. But so much of theater, it's become a theme park ride. It's become an amusement.

[A]

And even the things that are maybe more aggressive, they may. They. A lot of times, they still have imperfections, which is fine. Nothing has to be perfect. But we also have become a culture due to social media, due to, honestly, the Truman Capote of Jeremy O. Harris's existence now of. We want to be the ones who found the new thing and that we were in the room when it happened, to quote Hamilton. So it's why, like, every show is the show. To see every cast replacement is a revelation. Everything, you know, everything that's at Encores or Off Broadway simply must transfer because it's just so incredible. I'm like, I hate to tell you, we are actually not in a golden age of theater right now. So, no, a lot of things aren't incredible, and that's fine. They don't have to be. Some things can be a stepping stone for someone to create something even more incredible. An example being I saw Cola Scola's Omer at the Lortel, which. Yeah, the Mary Todd Lincoln play, which is so dumb and so fucking fun. And would. Would I say it's the best comedy I've ever seen? No, but it is so promising for who Cole is as a art, as an artist and where they're going. And so more than me going, oh, oh, Mary needs to move to Broadway, I'm like, no, you want to see this because you want to say that you saw the first play by Kola Scola. Yeah, because it's only going to get better. Like, this is already so worthwhile, and it's gonna get better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's great.

[B]

You know, I agree. I. I think that, like, we're. Yeah, we're just at a point right now where these institutions are not fostering these voices. Not really. There's, you know, there's a. You could. You could afford various reasons. There are of plenty. You know, there are different, you know, different groups, different writing groups where they think, you know, this is. These are the hottest writers, and a lot of it's just here's, you know, writers with great ideas, but not a lot of, you know, not a lot of great execution.

[A]

And we talked, we mentioned Ryan Murphy at the top of this episode.

[B]

Baby, I'm saying. And we're in a place now where, like, where is the. There's a lot, you know. You know, you have a lot of schools that these people are coming out of. But, like, where is the mentorship? Where is, you know, where. Where is the. The editing there? Where's the rest of red pen?

[A]

And.

[B]

And yeah, I think that right now we're in a. We're in a space where everyone is yet they're looking for the new hot thing. But sometimes these things are not ready to transfer. And also these. In a lot of these. These institutions don't have people speaking up. You know, they. They have, you know, they have their artistic director hat on, you know, but they're not really doing the thing where they're reading the play and they're giving you notes. The, you know, the same, you know, a lot of those half finished babies, those sacrificial lambs I alluded to earlier, a lot of them could have used a producer, you know, or an artistic director or, you know, or a patron and talk with, you know, the. The theater makers, you know, to talk about what the piece is doing, what's. What it's, you know, what it's trying to achieve instead of. Of being afraid of having those conversations. And I find it really ironic because during the pandemic, you know, we. During the quarantine, rather, because we're still in the pandemic. During the quarantine, there was a lot of conversations. You know, we were. We were home. And so we saw police brutality, you know, from our laptops, from our television screens, from our phones. You know, we're watching these videotapes on, you know, these, These video footages on, you know, on loop. And people got on their Amazons and they went to their, you know, they went to their Barnes and Nobles and they ordered, you know, cast, you know, and they, you know, and whatever hot book that was on the New York Times bestsellers list about. And had these conversations about race and discourse. And then when the theater season opened up and you got these black plays coming to Broadway, it's like nothing. No one retained anything, you know, and it's just. It's. It's just. It's the irony.

[A]

I think another issue is also just a lot of people at the top are dumb with. With not a lot of taster or. Or good judgment. But we can't go into that, Marcus, because that's another hour. And we're. It's another hour. We're getting. We're getting into our limit now. So on that note, we gotta start wrapping things up with Slave Play because you and I have a Sunday to get the rest of the day through. So don't you thumbs down me.

[B]

That was you.

[A]

That was not me. I didn't. I didn't touch anything.

[B]

I'm not touching anything. I thought that's. I've been watching that the entire time.

[A]

Me too. Is Zoom. Is Zoom commenting on our comment on our commentary?

[B]

It's not me.

[A]

That was not me. I didn't. I didn't touch anything.

[B]

Been watching it the whole time thinking, like, are you.

[A]

I thought you've been doing that the whole time.

[B]

My hands are here.

[A]

AI AI. Guys, Marx and I are recording on Zoom, and every now and then during our recording, there'd be like a thumbs up button, occasionally a thumbs down button. And I just thought that was Marcus being like, totally agree. Or be like, yeah, no, hate it too.

[B]

Or.

[A]

It was always happening when I was talking, though. So do you. Did you imagine I was like, I'm saying this. Thumbs up on that. I really. I really hit the nail on that one.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I was like. I was like, let me just smile through it.

[A]

And that is slave play, Marcus. Let's. Let's. Let's. Let's wrap things up. So Slave Play. Final thoughts on. On a scale of problematic. Question mark.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

On a scale for you is how. How do you define it? Because I. I will say for me. Not again, not to Alana, you're Philip. But for me, I think this is one of the first shows I've covered here where it truly meets the criteria of problematic with how the word she should be used, which is that this is a play that has problems in it, but the actual piece Itself is not, quote, unquote, cancelable. Problematic.

[B]

I think the execution is problematic. I think the intention is not.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which you could say that about so much art. So many. So many. But. But this is literally, I feel like the he. What the writer was really trying to embark on in the piece. You can see what he's. What he's, you know, the level of ambition. You know, it's crawling with a lot of ideas, but it really. It's a piece that, like that third act is what makes it really problematic. It's like. It's kind of like the. The takeaway, you know, of the piece, because you could almost forgive the first two scenes. What's. What's happening, you know, that it is a satire, you know, the, you know, the conversation that I had. And even though things kind of, like some arguments kind of disappear, you know, I never. You never hear them, you know, or some things are alluded to. Like, I would love to, you know, what is that conversation about, like, being a white passing person of color and a relation in an interracial relationship? Like, what is that? You know, every time it gets brought up, it disappears. I would love to know more about that. I would love to know what does it mean to be working with your partner who happens, you know, in this space, you know, as a. And you're in charge of being. Being a therapist or being a sounding board for other people's problems. When you have problems in your interracial relationship. I would love to have seen more of that. And not just an interrelational relationship, but an interracial lesbian relationship between the two actors, Taya and Patricia. I would love to know what that is for those characters, but for a criteria, if I had to rate it, it's really problematic. And. But is it as problematic as Daddy? No. What I think we. What I think the benefit of this is that we got this generation's, you know, Terence Bradshaw. We got a really transgressive, in your face, theater style playwright, really kind of giving you piss and vinegar. You know, he, you know, he's.

[A]

He's my favorite potato chip flavor.

[B]

But, you know, but he's. He's. Yeah, you're giving. You're. You're kind of. You're, you know, and I think for all of us, problem for as problematic as it is, I mean, we really haven't seen a young playwright come along with this muscusto on the. On the main stage, on a Broadway stage in a minute. And to like, to be the most. I mean, next to like, next to like, Michael R. Jackson, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or even Lin Manuel Moran. I wouldn't say that Lin Manuel Moran is transgressive or in your face, but to that level of being a celebrity.

[A]

Yeah. And with Lynn. Lynn is also in his stuff and. And Jeremy does perform, but I would argue Jeremy's celebrity. Sorry, Mr. O', Hara, Mr. O', Harris, if you're nasty. His celebrity came from solely writing. And same with Michael R. Jackson, which is really, really impressive.

[B]

Yeah. You know, and so I think that, like, that. That says a lot to it, and you really have the, you know, a distinctive voice for the American theater. But. But it's also one or two drafts away from, like, what it. Like from. From this level of. Like. Yeah, this level of. Of. Will we be talking about Slave Play a decade from now? I'm not sure.

[A]

Yeah, I. I think if his work continues to grow and mature and get more ruthless in its. In its cunning and its vision, we can look at this as sort of the root of a really amazing career. But we don't know yet. You know, hindsight's 20 20, I think my final thought with Slave Play, because you're also talking about, you know, with the final act and all the things that it touches on in the second and first act that we don't really get to explore as much, and why it angered so many women of color, why you felt like the air was let out in that third act. As I'm thinking about it more, it feels like part of what makes Slave Play is a problematic play because of, you know, just structural things and. And many points that it just sort of leaves on the table and then walks away from. And not even in a. Let's talk about it after the show kind of way More. More in like a. Oh, we forgot that we brought up this subject, and like, now we're just going to leave it alone. But I think where it kind of goes into the thematic problematic for some people is with all the checks that it chooses to not cash at the end, the fact that the check that it does decide to cash in the third act is such a violent one and such a triggering one for women who have to experience it on an everyday occurrence. Just so, again, as we said, you know, white people can live their own American fiction reality. That's where it goes into more of a. Like a. Did we really have to do that? Couldn't we have cashed one of the other checks? Why was this the one? Why on. Why on this day? But again, that's not for me to Actually answer that is. I think if we're gonna leave it at. If we're gonna pull a Jeremy Harris and just sort of put that poison dart on the table for everyone to play with, that would be mine. But, yeah, I don't know. We've done. We've talked so much. You were like, are we gonna have enough to talk about? Is this gonna be done in 80 minutes? I was like, why are you acting brand new? You've been on this podcast 10,000 times.

[B]

I was scared. I was like, do we have anything to say about it? Also, like, you know, so much has been said about this play. So much.

[A]

But not between us. Not together in this room or on.

[B]

This zoom, you know, I was like, is there anything we could talk about that's like. But I feel like there's been enough time where we. Yeah. Where we can kind of put it in its crystal ball and encapsulate it.

[A]

Yeah. Listen, you're Gary. I'm Alana. We don't. We didn't have that pairing on stage also. We didn't actually really talk about Patricia and Taya, but I'll just say Patricia and Taya. They are the therapists who run the experiment. They are a lesbian couple, biracial. And the whole reason they came up with the experiment is because, like, while they were at Yale, they got together and had their own intimacy issues and basically, like, decided it was because of racial trauma, not because of anything else, which, I mean, possibly true, but I would love it. I would love it if Jeremy O. Harris could confirm. It's like, no, they were always just doomed and just decided it was because of this. It wasn't because that they were incompatible.

[B]

I mean, I. I just. I. Something that, like, I will say about Jeremy Harris, especially with the two plays, is that, like, this is a black man who, I assume just through his art, primarily dates white man. And. And he's extremely exploring that in his pieces. And. And I think that it's. What we don't. What. What he's. What he's done with this piece. It's created a. A real kind of conversation starter for the culture, you know, and. You know, and. Yeah, I think that I'm very curious to see, like, you know, like, what the germ of this will be for another piece, because this. It's. He's kind of building, you know, his thematic oeuvre, if you will. Yeah. You know, black men attracted to white men who are in toxic relationships. And I think that, like, no, it's. That's. Is. That. Is that not what he's, what he's writing about.

[A]

I don't know enough about his life, but that is a major, the major theme of the stuff he, he writes about. Yes.

[B]

I'm not going to pretend to know. I'm just saying that, like looking at the work, I'm just saying, you know, and so, yeah, I'm very curious to see what, what this is going to bring up, not just in his work, but like what this is going to. Who's going to inspire what writers this inspires. Because I'm seeing it now, you know, just like we talked about the last, on my last appearance, you know, where we kind of. I think we talked about Len briefly and you see a lot of. We talked about. We talked about Passing Strange too. You see kind of like what the plays are influencing with. When you're seeing a lot of the post Hamilton effect in theater, you're seeing a lot of that musicals. You're seeing that right now with Jeremy's work off Broadway. There's a lot of like kind of transgressive, you know, provocative work. And so I'm very curious to see the kind of conversation this gets brought up in.

[A]

No, totally, absolutely. And I think that's a great place to land for today. Marcus, this has once again been so delightful. I think it's my favorite episode with you yet. And, and it's not just because we talked about pegging Marcus. Where can the listeners find you if you want them to find you?

[B]

The real Marcus Scott on Instagram or real Marcus Scott on, on X or Twitter. I'm never calling it X, just call it Twitter.

[A]

It's the only thing it's okay to dead name, believe me. Only. Only thing. Only thing it's okay with.

[B]

I love that. And, and yeah, I've got stuff happening, developing around, around the country. I have. I'm writing a play right now and that'll be up at Art House in, in, in May. So you can come and see that. Check.

[A]

Congrats, babe. If you want to follow me, I'm on Instagram only at Matt Kop. Usual spelling. If you like the podcast, you can give us a nice 5 star rating or a little review. I will read any new reviews on Maine. Here we have a new one, if I may. Light in the Piaza ooverture music playing 5 stars. Effective criticism. I love musical theater, but a lot of people outside the industry talk about it with such broad strokes based on how they feel that it does nothing to further any true conversation. And people in the industry are usually afraid to burn bridges so they stick to the positive. Oh, boy. Is that relevant to today? Matt is very knowledgeable about theater, and what's really great is how he uses that knowledge to break down all the parts of a show to praise the good and the explain the bad, as well as how things might have been done better. Though I sometimes disagree with his opinions, they're based on logic and make me rethink or sharpen my previously held views. So I finish every episode better for the experience. Thank you so much, bmkwb. I gotta say, who the fuck would disagree with me? I am perfect and my mind is incredible. No, I love it. If I hope people disagree with me from time to time, but also are able to go, I disagree, but I see what he's saying. So let me rethink how I feel so it can. I can further stand behind my opinions. That's how I always am. But then that's again, as I said, I am perfect. Marcus, we got to close out with a Broadway diva to play us out. Who do we play today for? Slave play.

[B]

For slave play, a Broadway diva. Let's do Lashan's.

[A]

Oh, fuck, yes. Okay. Do. Okay. No, I'm gonna. I'll figure. I'll. I'll decide. I'll decide on my own. Which. Which Lashan's to do, but yeah. Fuck yeah, Lachanze. Okay. Thank you so much for listening, guys. Join us next week for four. I actually know what the next episode's gonna be, so I can tell you all now. Aida, that's gonna be a bonkers episode, because that is a bonkers show. All right, take it away, Lashanz. Bye. Find each other in the crowded streets and the guarded parts by the rusty fountains and the dusty trees of the battered bar and they walk together Past the poster wall with a Koori mug and they meet at party to the friends of friends who they never know will pick me up but do I meet you there or shall we let it go? Did you get my message?

[B]

Because I looked in then. Can you see each other?