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Broadway Breakdown
The 2023 Tony Nominations: They're HERE! (w/ Kyle Marshall)
01:52:44
Matt and Kyle react to this year's Tony nominees
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- [00:00]
A
Think of the prestige. Think of the respect.
- [00:02]
B
No, no, no.
- [00:04]
A
Think of the Tony. Hello all you theater lovers both out and proud and on the DL. And welcome back to Broadway Breakdown, a podcast discussing the history and legacy of American theater's most exclusive address, Broadway. I'm your host, Matt. Matt Koplik, the least famous and most opinionated of all the Broadway podcast hosts. And with me today to discuss our initial reactions to this year's Tony Award nominees is a friend of the pod, a co host of Kyle and Dave versus the Machine, as well as the singular host of Putting It Together, the music of Stephen Sondheim. I have been a guest on both podcasts. Not to humble brag, but humble brag. Please welcome back Kyle Marshall. Hello, Kyle.
- [00:56]
B
Hey, Matt. How's it going?
- [00:58]
A
Good. Every time we speak, I always want to do the Cartman voice of Kyle. Yeah, yeah, I know no cat, but.
- [01:08]
B
Ask my mother how much she loved the song Kyle's mom's a from the south park movie.
- [01:14]
A
Well, she looked at herself in the mirror and she said, you know what? I am a rowdy bowdy bitch, to quote the great Alyssa Edwards. And thus she's like, I must have my child. And she knew that that song was gonna happen years after you were born, so she just was lying in wait. Kyle, how are you doing on this Wednesday morning?
- [01:32]
B
It's good. You know, I've been listening to many of your predictions podcasts, and what's so wonderful is that even it's. It's proof positive that even if you have the most information, predictions are really just your own personal opinion, aren't they?
- [01:48]
A
Oh, 1,000% the number of things I was wrong about and my guests have been wrong about. But then also some things where, I mean, granted, I did a whole lot of episodes and a lot of talking, so I know for a fact there are things that I said I would love to see happen but didn't expect it to happen, and then they did happen. So that was nice. And we'll. I'll talk about it today. But yeah, that's always been the issue with predicting award nominations and even winners is you're. You have. You want to go with your gut of the things you enjoyed, and if you saw enough stuff, you can sort of make that call. But you're also trying to determine the tastes of 40 different people of whom, if you're lucky, you know, like six of them, but that's it.
- [02:29]
B
Oh, that is a good starting off point. I don't know if this is, like, going too far away from Our point here today, But I would love to know, being the Oscars fan that I am, I can talk people's ears off on actually how the nomination processes work and et cetera, et cetera. But I actually don't understand how the Tony system works necessarily. Meaning, like, who is it that nominates and then who is it that votes?
- [02:54]
A
Nominators get to vote. And it's about the nominating committee, I think is about 50. But that doesn't mean everyone on the committee nominates because there's some people who recuse themselves either. They don't get to see everything by the end of the season. Sometimes there's a conflict of interest. You. You don't need to worry about conflict of interest if you're voting, but if you're nominating, I think you do, and you can sort of determine what that is and you'll like, maybe. I know some people who've been nominators who've presented to the committee before. Like, is this a conflict of interest, this working relationship I've had with so and so and so and so. Most of the time they say no. I think like, a real conflict of interest is like, if you end up being in one of the shows or.
- [03:38]
B
Like, you know, you're married to someone who's in the show or something.
- [03:40]
A
Yeah. Or like, you have money in one of the shows. Things like that.
- [03:43]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:44]
A
Less of like, hey, I did a show with Janine to Sorry last year. Is that a conflict of interest? Or like so and so's my, you know, best friend's fiance or whatever. It's like, no, that's not really a conflict of interest. But. So the way that.
- [03:55]
B
What if I've dated all the newsies? Is that. Is that something that's wrong?
- [03:59]
A
Does anyone really date a newsy? Kyle.
- [04:02]
B
Right. It's true.
- [04:03]
A
You go out to dinner with them and they just don't stare back at you. But the way the nominations used to work, and this changed because I know the Oscars now do preferential ballot for Best Picture and. Yeah, and that used to be how nominations worked, I think for at least musical was you had your nominations on your own personal ballot, but you had them in an order of preference. And more. The. The more you were at number one or number two, the more nominations you got or the more points you got and thus were nominated. And this all changed after 1996, when Big and I think State Fair didn't get nominated for best musical, but Big got nominated for book and score and some ACT nominations. And what happened was swinging on a star. And I think it was Chronicle of a Death Foretold. Or maybe it was wondering. I can't remember.
- [04:57]
B
One of those classic shows that everyone knows about.
- [04:59]
A
Exactly. Shows that first of all had long been closed, that no one liked very much, got nominated instead. And it was that no one could prove it. But I know Richard Malby Jr. Did a lot of sleuthing and was going to write to the New York Times that had this whole letter that he was going to send in and then opted not to do it. But it is in the book about Big the Musical where he's like, I know a lot of the nominators. He's like, and listen, this is not necessarily about me being butt hurt. This is just me being confused because I spoke to a lot of nominators who did put Big on their ballots. He's like, honestly enough for it to get a nomination. He goes, what must is like. I am convinced what happened was there were enough nominators who got together and decided they were because they knew rent and bring into noise, bring into funk. We're going to make it in to put Chronicle the Death Foretold and swing it on a star at their number ones and number twos so that they would have enough points to take out Big. And so after that happened, it stopped being a preferential ballot and just became tallies. However many people voted for such and such.
- [06:00]
B
So is that why then in some categories there's like four nominees and in some there's seven? Like, because that's always confused me too.
- [06:07]
A
So the four. So it's supposed to be. It used to be four and then. And then acting got expanded to five. And then I know directing got expanded to five and then score, best musical and best play didn't get expanded to five until 2016. And that was supposed to be like, if there were enough votes for 5, and now it's become 5 is the default and could become 6. If there's enough votes among them, it goes down to four. When there just aren't enough contenders, I think it has to be a minimum of eight, maybe eight possibilities for it to get five. And if it's less than that, or maybe if it's less than nine, it goes down to four. But yeah, so there being six best actor to musical nominations came from the fact that two of those actors were close enough in votes. I think it has to be under three votes that it gets to be expanded. And the nominating committee meets three times a year, the last one being the day that they vote to sort of discuss the season and. And make sure everyone's sort of on the same page of where everyone is eligible. And, you know, I think if anyone has confusion as to, like, the merits of something, sometimes they'll. They will debate things. It's not about necessarily convincing someone to vote for something, but it's like if someone goes. I don't understand, like, the merit behind the design of this. Someone who is a designer can be like, well, here's why that set actually works quite well. Um, and that can sort of expand people's minds. And then everybody votes in secret. They send it in and then it gets tallied. I think that later that day and then the next day they announce it. So, yeah, that's how the. That's how it works. It's pretty. It's relatively simple, which is why also, like, when people talk about why do we have five actresses that have musical nominations but. And six actors? Like, the conspiracy of it all, like, it's no, it's really no conspiracy. In fact, like, there was a conspiracy in 96 that kind of ended up being true and they changed the rules because of it. And since then it's been pretty straightforward.
- [08:06]
B
And when's the last time there was a tie? Because I think that's possible too.
- [08:10]
A
A tie for a winner.
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B
Yeah.
- [08:13]
A
The last time I can think was when Billy Elliot and Next to Normal tied for orchestrations. I think that's what happened. Right.
- [08:23]
B
Something. I was. I was flipping through Wikipedia looking at different categories, and I think you're right. I think there's something like that. It's been a while. It's been a long time since there's actually been a tie.
- [08:33]
A
Yeah, I think. I think, yeah. Billy Elliot, the Next Normal, had a tie and I think. I do think that was the last time there was one. There haven't been many in the Tonys. I know that. Obviously, you know Leslie Uggam. No. Diane Carroll. Was it Diane Carol. It was Diane Carroll and Anna Maria Albergetti tied for best actress in a musical. Fiorello and Sounding musical, obviously for.
- [08:54]
B
Yeah, for best.
- [08:58]
A
I think Spider Woman and Tommy tied for score.
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B
Oh, interesting.
- [09:02]
A
Yeah. And then there have been a couple of design ties, but I'm pretty sure that's it. It doesn't happen very often.
- [09:08]
B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. It's a. It's. It's a fun. It's a fun time to be alive. I don't know if there's going to be any ties this year, but I don't know.
- [09:15]
B
I. I don't for my amateur chair that I sit in, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of like 50, 50 toss ups in. In the race there. There's either a complete front winner or it's like, I don't know. Yeah, well, and that's this or this person. Like, it's down to two people.
- [09:34]
A
Yeah, that's always the problem with front runners, though, is, like, if something feels so safe, then it kind of becomes scary because then people will go, well, everyone's gonna vote for it. I'm gonna vote for who I like. And then an upset happens, you know. Sure. And sometimes people split the vote. And so, yeah, there's also. There are a whole lot of theories, tinfoil hat theories that I want to sort of just debunk right now. Because after yesterday, there were a lot of people going like, oh, well, this really shed some light on some stuff. New York, New York and Juliet and shucked all getting nine nominations is great. Some like it hot, getting 13 is great. People going, oh, so Some Like It Hot's really the front runner now for best musical with its 13 nominations, because people think, oh, that's the most. Therefore, it's the front runner. No, no, no, no. That is not the case. That has never been the case. It's only really mattered when there are two front runners and one gets maybe a little more love than the other. So, like, the year of Matilda and Kinky Boots, I think Kinky Boots got one more nomination than Matilda. And that was more. That was like showing the crack in the foundation of Matilda because that when Matilda came to Broadway, it came with the understanding of, like, we all know this is winning best Musical. Right. Like, you're so lucky to have it, and it's a shame because it should have won. But just like the. The cockiness of that production of, like, the producers coming into it is what did it in. And when Kinky Boots got one more nomination over Matilda, that was the beginning of everyone going, oh, I think there's some resentment about this show's attitude. And that's. I mean, that's one thing. But like, there have been years where just because, you know, one show is more heavily designed than the other or has more acting possibilities than the other, it gets more nominations and sometimes more wins, but doesn't win musical. So just reminding people, Drowsy Chaperone had more nominations than Jersey Boys and actually won more Tonys than Jersey Boys, but Jersey Boys still won musical. There are other things to look out for when we're.
- [11:26]
B
I mean, there's there's those really. Well, like, I don't know, technical shows we can. Which can clean up on technical awards, but then don't win any of, like, we'll say, quote, unquote, the big ones.
- [11:35]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [11:36]
B
You can win up. You can win a lot. Just getting like, you get this lighting and best choreography and best costumes and, you know, you can just clean up that way.
- [11:43]
A
And we'll talk about plays as well. But in regards to musicals, I also want to say there are two categories in particular you really want to have nominations for if you are intending to win Best musical. One is not a total ultimatum, but the other one is. And if you have both, that definitely helps your chances. And we will get into that in just a second. So Kyle, as someone who is a theater fan, is very much, you know, has his finger on the pulse of Broadway, but isn't here as often because unfortunately, Kyle lives in Canada. Uh, what surprised you with some of these nominations, both in a positive and like a, let's not say negative, but snubby kind of way.
- [12:23]
B
Well, so here's the thing. I mean, it's. I can only go from, like, social media interest and I will say living far away, even though I go and search this stuff out. Definitely, definitely. Like, Kimberly Akimbo has been talked about a lot online, but I would say that Shucked and Juliet and Parade are the three other ones that just get seemingly into my queue, at least get shown to me a lot. So those are the ones I was like kind of thinking, okay, those are probably going to show up here. And I was right for the most part. I will say, as the big Sondheim fan that I am, even though I saw the into the woods revival in New York here this past summer, I was actually kind of shocked at all the acting nominations it got. I thought it's like, no, there's just no way they might give one to Sara Bareilles. That was the one. I was like, that's a maybe for me. I was not anticipating. Let me just get their names here because I always forget. Julia Lester was a big surprise for me for Best featured Actress. And then even Brian Darcy James. Anyways, I just thought that was interesting that that was able to sustain so much moment throughout the season, having been closed for however many months it's been closed for.
- [13:42]
A
Yeah, I listen full egg on my face. I definitely said that my hot take was Sara Bareilles was going to be the only acting nomination for that show. She did get nominated. So I want to, you know, say yay, to that. And I do. I. I think I talked about on the podcast. I know I did this on Instagram when I was doing featured actress in a musical back in the day. As I was trying to figure out the nominations for it, people kept saying, like, oh, Philip Asu could get double nominated this year. Which I never signed off on. But I. My prediction was that Philippa would probably get in for Camelot over Woods. And I had said, if someone from into the woods gets nominated other than Sara Bareilles, I would like it to be Julia Lester. So I was very happy to see her in there. Brian, on paper, doesn't totally surprise me, but like, having seen the show and not being super enthralled with his performance, even though I do love him, I was a little surprised. And then I saw Camelot last night. And I will say, having seen Camelot last night, a lot of things make sense to me now with some of these acting nominations. And we'll get into that in a second.
- [14:43]
B
Yeah, the big surprise for me was like, part of me gets it. But there was this huge uptick when New York, New York was announced. You know, another Kander and EB score is coming back. Lin Manuel Moran is involved. And honestly, when that's announced, I'm like, oh, I'm actually pretty interested in this. And then the reviews started to come out and it was like, this is not good. Like, I. It's basically mixed to negative reviews from what I'm seeing from most people.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah.
- [15:10]
B
So the fact that they got nine is somewhat surprising to me.
- [15:14]
A
Yes. But then we also gotta remember Paradise Square, I believe, got 10.
- [15:17]
B
Yeah, that's true.
- [15:18]
A
There's the thing about New York, New York. And listen, I. I know there are people who really love it. They are allowed to. The show is not a disaster, Kyle. It's.
- [15:29]
B
Yeah, it is. By the way, it's the. I've only heard one song from it too, so this is really hard for me to base any knowledge on.
- [15:36]
A
Well, and they ended up not being eligible for score because it was like five new songs or something. But it is very well designed. Every now and then, Stroman does a really good number. The choreography in general is. Is strong. There are moments where I'm like, you could do better than this, strobe. But it's not like, embarrassing. It's just that there's a lot of it. And I don't. I think there are times when it's just not very well employed. But it's. What's the thing about New York, New York is its nominations are both. Clearly they have some fans, but also there are just some categories that they needed that fifth slot and they made it a point to shut out Beautiful Noise because I. I mean, maybe they just couldn't bring themselves to have two jukebox musicals in the same like. Like they had last year. But, you know, I guess it's sort of like of the two, New York, New York has a better pedigree and is trying for something a little more interesting than Beautiful Noises even though it fails a lot harder. And so I don't begrudge them the fifth best musical slot. I don't even begrudge them Colton Ryan, who I don't like in the show but again is trying something where I begrudge them his best book. It is, in my opinion, the second worst book of the year after Bad Cinderella. The only defense I'll give them for that nomination is like, there's not much else out there to give that.
- [17:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like I will say this my pleasantly surprised and this is maybe going to be shocking to some people because it feels like it's so counter my tastes. I'm actually kind of. I love the fact that K Pop got the best original score nomination. I'm actually kind of a fan of again, the only four songs that are available to stream currently. So I'm down for that.
- [17:22]
A
Yeah, I think. I think the theater lovers and I did predict that for best score last week. That was. That was definitely something that I thought was very possible. And I. I don't know if maybe I was willing to put money on it, but I was like, that's. I was like, be. Be wary of that happening because it could happen. Where I was surprised was Almost Famous getting in for score and not book because I don't particularly think the score of Almost Famous is very good and I don't think the book is very good either. But it's competent and it's coherent. What where it kind of fails for me is that it's not an actual strong adaptation of the movie and in fact kind of fails a lot of things to make the movie work. But if you've never seen the movie, you could probably watch Almost Famous and be like, yeah, that's fine. And so in that sense, I would have given it a best book nomination over New York, New York, which is just. And I was on the fence at the time of like, well, will they finally nominate Aaron Sorkin for something? Will he finally get that Tony nomination after 33 years?
- [18:18]
B
And answer was no.
- [18:20]
A
And having seen Camelot last night. It makes sense. It's. Sorkin is such a good writer for the most part, but he has his faults, like we all do, and I've been noticing them a lot more lately with being the Ricardos and Trial of the Chicago 7, and with Camelot. Did you read Jesse Green's review for Camelot in the New York Times?
- [18:42]
B
I did not, no.
- [18:43]
A
Okay. Jesse Green's been getting a lot of shit these last two years, and sometimes it is deserved. His review for the company revival, whether you like that production or not, is beside the point. His review just made no sense. And I kind of wanted to be like, you need to make a better point of. Of reviewing the actual production and not being like, bobby was never meant to be a woman. So I don't understand what they're doing here. And it's like, girl, calm down. But Camelot, what he talked about was sort of, you know, rewriting the book is a fool's errand because the story is epic and stately, but the score is very null. Cowardy. And so if you're keeping the songs, you. If you're going to rewrite the book, you have to find a way to make the story lighter, to match the score, and then you're not doing real justice to the story. But at least the whole thing is on a similar plane. And he goes. And, no, Aaron Sorkin, unfortunately, has gone the opposite direction, which is absolutely true. He goes much more for realism and stateliness.
- [19:40]
B
And it, like, there's no wrong way to go about that. I mean, Camel is such a weird show anyways, in that I've seen productions of it. I still like many of the songs from that score, but, man, is it just. It's a mess of a show.
- [19:54]
A
It really is. And like, I. I do like the majority of that score, at least listening to it. But, yeah, it was like. It was just so. And. And. And. And this is sort of where I'm getting into now with, like, the performance elements of people who got, quote unquote, snubbed. There's no joy in this production of Camelot. You know, there are moments where there's some energy. You know, when Samoa happens, that's quite nice. And I found. I actually found their lust, Lusty Month of May to be dull. But I thought Philippa did a really good job with you May Take Me to the Fair. But Aaron Sorkin is so concerned about, like, giving everyone their dignity and nobility and, you know, talking about ideals and making sure that Guinevere's, you know, a political and Mental equal to Arthur. But then he, like, tries to make us buy the romantic triangle in Act 2, and he can't because a. First of all, Aaron Sorkin can't do sexy. Neither can do. Neither can Bartlett Cherry. But like, they. He wrote in a way where it's like Guinevere and Arthur don't seem to like each other very much. They tolerate each other. He very much emphasizes that it's an arranged marriage, that Guinevere has no time for the title song of the show. And that really kind of undercuts any effectiveness that Burn up and sue can do because they are having to work with what Cher and Sorkin are giving them and then have to do an about face in Act 2. And not even just for Act 2. Like the last scene of Act 2.
- [21:22]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:22]
A
And that just makes no sense. And like, they'll. They have this scene, this long, dry scene where they're playing chess while Guinevere is also like, you know, thinking about other things. And it's very long and they're talking sort of at a monotone and, you know, oh, you and your politics and your princess and all this stuff. And. And Arthur's trying to talk about how he was once part of the common folk and all this stuff. And so I know more about. About the people. And Guinevere goes, all right, then, well, what do the simple folk do? So it's this long, dry scene and then we go into the peppy song. I'm like, the fuck is this about Face? So seeing it, I understand why Sorkin wasn't nominated and I understand why Philippa wasn't nominated. I probably still would have given Burn up a nomination because he really saves the show in Act 2 with his arc for Arthur. Him not getting nominated makes sense. I get it, I get it, I get it. But if you were to say, Matt, would you nominate him? I would, but I do get it. I'm a little more confused by Jordan Donica's nomination. He sings very well, but, like, otherwise, Lancelot has nothing to do in the show. So is. And them getting in for revival is just like, well, we need to fill out the fourth slot and it's not going to Danson and it's not going to 7076.
- [22:39]
B
Yeah, that's unfortunate. Well, I mean, 1776 actually is like a better Sorkin adaptation. If you wanted to rewrite a book, if you really wanted to. But I wouldn't. I really wouldn't mess with that show either.
- [22:50]
A
Yeah, that book, the book of 1776 is so good.
- [22:53]
B
Yeah, I know. That's what I mean. Like. Yeah, but as far as, like, material, that's the pairing I would make.
- [22:58]
A
Yeah. Well, I mean, you. It makes you wonder then, like, because Camelot, 1776 and Danson all suffer the same thing, which is they are trying to come in with this sort of elitist attitude about the material that they're doing. So, like, obviously with Camelot, we all know, like, Camelot doesn't really work and, you know, sort of trying to fix it is. Makes sense on paper, but anytime anyone's ever been like, I'm gonna rewrite the book and fix this show, it has never worked. The closest ever got was candide in the 70s and people. And there are still people who have issues with that version of Candide 1776. It is very clear that the directors hate that show and think that they're better than it, which is never the attitude you want. And then dancing. I don't even know what they were trying to do. Like, they were trying to honor Fosse while also being like. But a lot of this stuff is problematic. And, like, we're. And we're more. We've progressed so far since then. I'm like, yeah.
- [23:55]
B
Was there dancing?
- [23:57]
A
There was dancing and there was a lot of talking. A lot of talking. Woof, woof, woof, woof. So, yeah, the Camelot of it all. Like, I get it. I get why it's. Why it got in where it did, but I also understand where it, you know, shat the bed in other categories, because before I saw it, I was like, oh, yeah, Like, Philip was probably gonna get in, and, you know, Andrew has a good shot. And then when they didn't, I was like, oh, that's surprising. And then I saw the show. I'm like, I get it now. Which is. That's, again, the. The issue with so many people on social media, when they cry, you know, someone got robbed, someone got stumped, whatever. It's a lot of people who didn't see it.
- [24:33]
B
Yeah. Which is what I'm always a little bit nervous about, because it's like, I'm going off of this with a lot of listening to the score as it's been recorded in a professional recording scenario.
- [24:43]
A
Yeah.
- [24:44]
B
I have no idea. I don't know what it's like to be in the theater necessarily, for most of this. The one. I'll say one last thing. Not that I thought it was not going to get nominated because it was pretty clearly a lot of enthusiasm behind it, but I ended up really loving this Parade recording a lot more than I thought it was going to. So, yeah, I'm just excited it got as many nominations as it did.
- [25:06]
A
Yeah, I'm very happy with that as well. I mean, I. I think that Parade is definitely the best revival this year. And probably. Yeah, I would say it's probably like the best revival I've seen since Arden's once on this island.
- [25:22]
B
Yeah.
- [25:22]
A
Which is not to say that, like, both of those are the most exceptional revivals of all time. I just think those are both very strong revivals. The recording is quite good. It's not as dry as a lot of modern day cast recordings, which I appreciate. The thing about Parade that I'm glad I got. I'm glad I got in for Ben and Michaela. That was never in doubt. I'm glad Michael Arden got in, which I never. I. I also have never really been in doubt of, because for me, he is the front runner to win.
- [25:49]
B
Right.
- [25:50]
A
But there were a couple of precursors he got shut out at, which is another myth I want to debunk for some people. Because people will look at precursors and go, oh, no. So and so didn't get in. So and so didn't get in. Like, they're losing steam. And it's like, not really. There's no overlap with the nominating bodies. What it can do sometimes is, and this is where I do think it helps New York, New York is that it can help push a momentum for a show of, like, if it's constantly getting mentioned in articles because of nominations showing, hey, there are people who like this that can sort of help Tony nominators go. I feel less guilty about nominating this poorly reviewed show because there is support for it, but it's not necessarily like means something's a sure thing. Case in point, Ben not getting nominated for the Outer Critics Circle or Drama Desk, but getting nominated for here. Same thing with Josh Groban and Thomas Kail getting nominated for director everywhere but the Tony Awards. So I'm. Yeah, so I'm. I'm. This is where I'm gonna be a little petty. And this is why I want to kind of talk about me having seen some of the stuff and you sort of keeping on tabs with socials and articles and on paper and listening to stuff. Director of a musical. I have made it no secret that, like, I do not enjoy Lear Debessenet's work on into the Woods. I. I saw it Encores and I saw it on Broadway and I thought she did a perfectly okay job of Just sort of leaving the material alone. I don't even.
- [27:18]
B
It was honestly another one that I was a bit surprised with. Again, I saw that into the Woods. I cried twice. But as far as, like, I didn't love. As minimal as it was. Totally understand why it was, but it just, like, wasn't my. My favorite thing. And of all the things, I was, like, direction for that one. I don't know. That seemed a little bit weird to me.
- [27:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, the people who've been defending her nomination and people like, she. That show was an event. It really. It saved the encore season. I'm like, yeah, an encore season that she almost killed. And then they. They're like, you know, that show was so beloved and really kind of brought the show back into the limelight. And the way she sort of had control of the company. And I was like. I watched. I was like, that's the reason why I actually wouldn't give her a directing nomination is I personally never felt that that cast was as cohesive as a whole as a lot of other people did. I thought there were some performances that were great. I thought Sarah was great. Julia Lester Kennedy as Milky White. But there were other performances that I thought were extremely underwhelming. And not only that, we're in different productions of Woods. I thought Gavin Creel did a nice job, but he was in a very different production of into the woods and Sara Bareilles Philippus, who was in a very different production of into the woods than Brian d' Arcy James. And I thought there was kind of a lack of momentum in that show, especially in act one, like, where it's three. The whole, like, there are three midnights. I'm like, bitch, there are three midnights dot get to step in. And so there were some characters. I'm like, why are we so casual about this? And that's why, like, for me, I would not have nominated Lear, staging aside, which, you know, of course, was basic, but it's encore, so it's all presentational. It was that. That kind of did it in for me. But I'm willing to accept Lear getting nominated if it meant. And this is where I'm bitchy. If it meant Thomas Kail didn't. Because I simply could not handle Two by the Numbers directing for Sondheim musicals because this Sweeney, similar to the into the Woods, I think is perfectly okay. I don't think it's great. Where it has into the woods beat is in the production value area. But even then, like, I don't think the production value of the Sweeney is all that incredible, and there's no point.
- [29:28]
B
It's an interesting thing that, like, again, I haven't. There's been no album released, even though they're making one for this new Sweeney Todd. So I've heard snippets. That's as much as I've been able to hear, but from all my little birds who've actually been able to see it and. And send me information. It's this interesting paradox for this Sweeney Todd in that everyone comes away and, like, yeah, I really liked it. And then they give me a list of things that they don't like.
- [29:53]
A
Yeah. So it's like. It's this weird thing.
- [29:54]
B
It's like, yeah, no, it's really good because the material is really good. Just as an example, as an aside, I have a. A friend who is a costume designer in New York, and that's what she says. Like, I'm actually kind of disappointed by the costumes in this. In this production. So I don't know. I'm just going by, like, one person's statement, but.
- [30:13]
A
And they didn't get nominated for costumes, rightfully so. And I want my listeners to know that, yes, when they got a sound design nomination, I did roll my eyes super hard. I. The moment I made it, I said on the podcast that I would throw my shoe if they got nominated. I was like, they're gon. I. I posted the episode and went, fuck, they're gonna get nominated for it now. Because there are some things and. And it's such a niche category to get upset by, but the sound design for Sweeney Todd is something that, like, the majority of people can agree on is not good. Even the people who have enjoyed the show have been like, yeah, it was hard to hear the orchestra. Or, like, the very fact that you have to sit in, like, the first four rows to feel like you're surrounded by the music is bad. And that is just gross to me. So them getting nominated for sound design pissed me off, because things like New York, New York, getting in for best musical. Not fat, not a fan of it, but, like, what are the other options? Sound design of a musical. There were other options. They could have nominated Kimberly. They could have nominated, you know, beautiful Noise, and they did. So it was Shucked and Juliet. New York, New York, into the woods, and I think Parade Night. One, two, three, six. No, it wasn't Parade. It was. No, sorry. Into the Woods. Sweeney Todd and Juliet. Shucked, New York, New York. Those were the five. Yeah. Sweeney Todd could have been swapped out for Parade which in my opinion does have the best sound design of the year. Kimberly Akimbo or something like It Hot, which doesn't have amazing sound design, but better than Sweeney. And I'm just like. There were. There were options, Other options.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:44]
A
You didn't have to do this same thing with set design of a musical. Although I guess, you know, the options were limited for that as well. I just think the set for Sweeney is so basic. It's a bridge and a crane that when the crane part turns around, it just looks like a giant Dalek from Doctor who, right? Yeah.
- [32:06]
B
And they do y' all exterminate in that. In that show.
- [32:08]
A
So every time he. Every time he cuts a throat, he goes exterminate. On that note, Kyle, let's take a one little break. Billy, I beg to differ with you.
- [32:18]
B
How do you mean?
- [32:19]
A
You're the top. Yeah. You're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. And we're back. What a wonderful break. What did you do? What did you do on your breakout?
- [32:37]
B
I had an entire meal. It was great.
- [32:39]
A
Yes. Three courses.
- [32:40]
B
Three courses.
- [32:42]
A
All right, let's go on to some other ones. What are some other ones that surprised you yesterday at the Tonys?
- [32:50]
B
You know what? Like, I mean, I guess it's just outside of. Oh, gosh, what is their name? Let me just scroll down here. Oh, outside Alex Newell in Shucked, who consistently gets like, oh, my gosh, if you're going to see their show, see it for them. I was actually a little bit surprised that there was other acting nominations in that show because I have literally heard nothing about any of the other actors in that show. So that was a little bit of a surprise for me. And I will say that both leads in some like a hot getting through. I was pretty certain one of them was which was Jay Harrison Guy. And I love Christian Borrell, but I didn't. I was not convinced he was gonna also be nominated at the same time.
- [33:34]
A
Yeah, there was. I. I do think Christian and Colton were the two that got very close together, which is what led that to be six nominees for the Cat for that category. You know, I always knew that Jay, Josh and Ben were going to get in despite Josh and Ben not having any of the precursors. Sweeney is a role you get nominated for.
- [33:54]
B
Just deal with it. Guys kind of have to.
- [33:56]
A
Yeah, I was pretty sure Christian was going to get in. And again, before I saw Camelot, I was like. And I think it'll be Andrew Burnup. I thought Burn up would be the. Would be the fifth slot just because woods had closed. And I know there's a lot of love for it. I was again, as I said, I was underwhelmed by Brian, but I'm not mad he's in there. Christian and Jade together both. I get it. And I don't at the same time. Jay is definitely give. It has the better role for anyone who's familiar with something like It Hot. And you can just watch the movie if you want. Like.
- [34:32]
B
Yeah. Lemon roll right back.
- [34:34]
A
Lemon roll, yeah. The Daphne track, as we call it, is. That's the role that always gets recognized. Jack Lemmon got an Oscar nomination. Robert Morse got Tony nominated for Sugar. That's, you know, that's. It's. That's just the track. And they do well by it in this production. So Jay was always going to get in. Christian. There's something off with his casting in this. And part of it is I do think that they underserve his role and they also underserved the role of Sugar, so that doesn't help.
- [35:02]
B
I think that that's the biggest Tell that the Sugar role does not get nominated when she's ostensibly like the main. Well, not the main, I guess, but a co lead between those two.
- [35:13]
A
Yeah, that's. It's really difficult to talk about this and not make it sound like I'm just shitting all over people. And I really don't mean to do this. So basically, okay, I'm gonna. I feel like every time I start doing critiques, I want to say I recognize everyone as someone who has written, who has performed, who has directed, and will probably do so again in the future. It is so hard to make a show in general, to write one, to put one up on Broadway, to raise the money, to have it all come together. That alone is a feat. So congrats. But that alone does not make it good or means that it deserves undying support because we can never do great work if we're only just surrounding ourselves with positivity and yes, men. Right. So when I talk about critiques, I try to come at it from an objective perspective of like, here's why this didn't work for me and what I think could have made it better. And so we can, you know, analyze this stuff better in the future. Sugar. There is a. There is a. Having also just seen, by the way.
- [36:12]
B
A sort of a revival of Sugar. Didn't you.
- [36:14]
A
I did, yeah. There's.
- [36:15]
B
Was it good?
- [36:17]
A
No, no, it's so it's Spotlight Theater company and they actually did a very good job with the show with like a $5 budget, a four piece band, and in a black box at Theater Row. They did a really strong job with it. The musical Sugar is not very good. In ways, it is better than Some Like It Hot because they. They actually stick closer to the film script than the current Some Like It Hot does. And the original film is perfect. Just, it's. It's an incredible movie that has stood the test of time.
- [36:46]
B
Can I just say too, how wild it is that Billy Wilder, the director of Some Like It Hot, the movie has three all time great last lines of a movie.
- [36:57]
A
Nobody's perfect. Some like it Hot. Shut up and deal the apartment and. And Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close up Sunset Boulevard.
- [37:04]
B
Sunset, yeah, absolutely. He knocks out of the park three times.
- [37:08]
A
He. Well, he's. He's the greatest screenwriter in film history. That's. That's because those. Not just those three films, but also Double Indemnity and did Sabrina and I think he did the movie version of Born Yesterday, but I can't remember. I know Carson Kanan wrote the script, but anyway, Billy Wilder was an absolute incredible filmmaker and the movie version of Something Hot is objectively incredible. If you disagree, that is, you're right. But that says something about your taste and your intellect. And that is where I will read you for Filthy Henny. But the. The character of Sugar is. Is hard because in the movie, you don't realize just how good Marilyn Monroe is and how vital she is to the success of that film until you see other people try to do it right. How I felt about Gigi on stage and American in Paris on stage, like it made me go, oh, Leslie Caron is brilliant in those movies. And you don't realize it until you see someone else try to do what she does. And they're hard roles and difficult to navigate. But the number one thing about Sugar that has to be remembered that both musical versions don't really capture is she's a mess. She's a mess of a human. She's like two steps away from being the American Sally Bowles. And the current version of Some Like It Hot tries too hard to make her independent and strong, which makes her less interesting and gives her no character arc. They still keep the fact that she's kind of an alcoholic with trust issues, but they try to blend that with like. But also she's a spitfire. And Adriana kind of leans into the spitfire more than the mess. So even Though she's like, I have a drinking problem and I don't trust men. And I've had a string of bad relationships. I'm like, yes, but you're also meticulously put together and beveling for the gods. That is not a mess. And like Marilyn, obviously one of the most stunning individuals to ever roam the earth. But there is sort of a messiness to her performance as well, and a vulnerability to her performance and almost like a childishness to it, which makes you want to take care of her while also, you know, being attracted to her. And so in make I never saw Adrianna getting nominated for this just because that's a major component that's been missing from this Some Like It Hot and I. And I think that will affect it its awards going forward. While they have the 13 outside of.
- [39:31]
B
Your, like, personal opinion, I guess of Some Like It Hot.
- [39:34]
A
Yeah.
- [39:36]
B
Like, what is. I don't know. What is the general consensus on that? Because it seems like it's getting positive to mix positive reviews from what I can see.
- [39:45]
A
Like, what's the New York? What's the New York?
- [39:47]
B
Yeah, Like, I'll say this. Listening to it, I have to basically be a broken record of what other people have said. I think even on this show, which is like, I could not tell you the difference between most of these songs. They sound very similar back to back to back to back. Listening through it. Which is actually why I think that what's his name, Kevin Delaquila gets a nomination because at least his couple songs sound different.
- [40:09]
A
Yeah.
- [40:10]
B
And are recognizable. So. But I don't know what the general consensus is in New York.
- [40:14]
A
Yeah. Well, speaking of Kevin, when he came on stage, I was like, okay, I am so on board for this performance. Because, like, it was. It was very reminiscent of the movie just in terms of he recognizes what made this role work originally while also doing his unique spin on it. And it was just so good. And he wasn't commenting on any of it, which I appreciate because that's another thing that I really hate now is comedy that is commenting on because it just undercuts any storytelling. Not to keep shitting on Camelot, but when Andrew Burnap sings the title song in that supposed meet cute between him and Guinevere, it's not a meet cute in this version. And he's singing the title song the entire time. It's just like constantly interjected by Phil, but being like, oh, are you still singing? Are you still going on about the weather? Like, we're still on this. And I'm like, can you stop? He's trying to charm you. And this song is one of the most charming songs of all time. Just like, it's supposed to win her over, but by the time the song's over, she's like, not interested. No ma'. Am. And there's a lot of that in the Broadway books this year and to which I'm like, has no one heard of. Yes. And that's the only way to make a scene build. You can't constantly have someone bring up something lofty and innocent for only for someone to shut it down for the sake of a audience going, haha, cynicism. And I'm like, no, can we. You know, earnestness is really difficult to do. Anyone can shoot down a comment in a Reddit thread. Can we maybe do a little better and try a little harder?
- [41:42]
B
This is my big thing too. Like, I mean, a moment of cynicism I'm kind of okay with. You want to break the fourth wall? I'm down for that. Sustained cynicism in musical theater especially drives me crazy because it's like, isn't it stupid that we're singing? Isn't it dumb that this is a musical? Like, then why am I here? Why are we doing this if all of this is stupid?
- [42:01]
A
No, absolutely. Absolutely. It's just so. I hate it. I really hate the, like, the commenting on over singing. Now I'm like, yes, we're in a musical. This is the world people saying, just enough of it. Enough, enough. The only show that I think succeeds at that is you're in Town. And that's because you're in Town adheres to the traditional structure of a musical while also commenting on it. And does the traditional structure really, really well. Anywho, you're asking about something like It Hot. The general consensus in New York is sort of split. The people who have loved it saw it pretty early in the run and were just very excited by the big brassiness of it. All that fervor has diminished a lot. It has gotten a lot more quiet around Some Like It Hot, and that energy started to transfer to Shucked. But again, that energy for that energy for Shucked, it's. It has not muted as much as Some Like It Hots, but it definitely was a lot louder in previews. And since it opened, it's not quite as extraordinary. Yeah. Which is. And I hate to sound like a Kimberly Akimbo, but boy. But that is ultimately what makes me think Kimberly is going to win musical and a few other awards. Is that like, yes, There are people who are in the camps for Shocked and Some Like It Hot, New York, New York, and then Juliet. But none of those shows have large enough camps in New York City to overtake Kimberly, which maybe is not an overwhelming favor, but it's still a large percentage. And everyone I've spoken to, with the exception of, like, three people, have been very pro. Kimberly, no. Oh, it's lovely. It's so sweet. It's so well done. Some Like It Hot has mostly been, like, I had a. If it's positive, it's been. I had a really good time at Some Like It Hot. No one has said to me it's the next producers. No one has said to me it's the next Mormon. Same thing with Shocked in New York, New York.
- [43:51]
B
Even some of the other Broadway podcasts I listen to, it just seems like, yeah, we had a really fun hit. Sound like a Hot. Cannot remember a thing about it, though. Two weeks afterwards. Like, it just doesn't seem to retain its poignancy. And even the ones who are, like, less than, like, enthusiastic about Kimberly, it's like, well, the more I think about it like, this, this worked for me. And this song is a bop. And, like, this song I've been playing a lot recently, too, so I think it's something that kind of worms its way into people's psyche, too.
- [44:18]
A
Yeah, there are people who don't like Kimberly Akimbo and will never like Kimberly Akimbo. That's their prerogative. Yeah, I agree. People who maybe were a little more mixed on it when they first saw it or were, like, lightly positive, their appreciation for it has grown over time. Whereas people who've loved Some Like It Hot loved it. And then it sort of, you know, they're like, yeah, no, I remember. All I remember is having a really good time. I would say Shucked and. And Juliet, the people who have liked those shows a lot when seeing them, have been able to pinpoint things about it that they've liked since. I have not heard anybody be sort of on the fence about N. Juliet and come to appreciate it over time. Same thing. And same thing with Shucked.
- [44:59]
B
I will say this. I have to be very honest with the bias that I have. I am. Normally, I really have a hard time engaging with jukebox musicals. I know it's a failing of myself, but it's just. I just have a hard time doing it. I will say this. That being said, if someone were to take me to and Juliet, having listened to the score, I would probably have a good Time. I probably wouldn't have a great time, but I probably have a good time at that show just by listening to it. There's actually one song that I actually think they do something interesting with, which is It's My Life, which I actually think has some interesting orchestrations in it. Outside of that, I'm like, I wish I was listening just to the original songs rather than listening to other people interpret these songs. But again, I think it would be a good time. I don't think it's a bad show from what I've listened to and seen clips of. But that's. That's as much as I'm going to be able to say about and Juliet.
- [45:55]
A
I'm a. I'm a broken record here. I have said many times, I maintain it. I think that one of the biggest failings of N. Juliet is the whole concept of Juliet. That show is all about her character, what would happen if she lived. And they don't do anything interesting with her. Everyone else is interesting. They. But her. And I'm thrilled that Lorna Courtney is a Tony nominee.
- [46:16]
B
Good for her.
- [46:17]
A
She sounds absolutely bonkers in that show. She sings her fucking face off. And that is a, you know, huge amount of effort.
- [46:27]
B
I see Wolf in the show, too. I think her one number is great. But I mean, I'm from Canada, so I always have to be like, it's Celine, though. So, I mean, it's all.
- [46:35]
A
It's all.
- [46:36]
B
It's hard.
- [46:37]
A
It's always Celine. And much as I love Marlo, Mandela and Titanic, like, it's still Celine, but, you know, Marlo is also doing a Celine. My vote for featured actress for and Juliet would have been Melanie La Barrie as the nurse. I thought she was so much fun and really kind of captured the vibe of that show. Whereas, you know, Betsy has a better role, I'll be honest, and is doing something that is very attention grabbing, even though I was not a fan of her interpretation. The thing about and Juliet is it's. It's. It's such a weird thing. And it's angered a lot of my listeners who like that show when I talk about it, because I'm like, I don't think and Juliet is bad. I think it actually does what it sets out to do rather well. It has its failings, like I've mentioned, but in terms of, like, comparing that and Some Like It Hot, I think, and Juliet does what it sets out to do better than Some Like It Hot does. And more interestingly, I don't.
- [47:28]
B
I definitely, honestly, if you were to tell me, which score do you want to listen to? I would pick in Juliet over Some Like It Hot.
- [47:33]
A
Yeah.
- [47:34]
B
To listen to again. And this is going to sound like a dig, but I truly don't mean it this way. I can see myself having angel yet as a. As a gym album, which is something that pumps you up a little bit.
- [47:45]
A
That. That's also.
- [47:46]
B
I would use it for.
- [47:48]
A
Yeah, yeah. No, the feeling in New York about something like It Hot is definitely. It's not divided in the sense of, like, controversy, although I know there's some people have been trying to stir up controversy on it. It's just, like, people who loved it and then have, like, kind of forgotten about it, but only remember that they had a good time. And then people are like, yeah, whatever. There's no show in New York this season. Of the new shows, it's like everyone has just rallied behind it, and it's like, this is the show, right?
- [48:13]
B
Yeah.
- [48:13]
A
Yeah. I would say close it. If we're ranking it, I would say it's Kimberly Shucked and then. And Juliet. Those are the three that, like, have large support bases, but really, I would say the musical this season that has had the most support has been Parade and.
- [48:28]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I've seen a lot of social media. Honestly, a lot of it is just filming Ben Platt during the intermission. Yeah, they get posted all the time, so it's gonna sit here the entire intermission. Like, the other 59 videos I've seen say yes. So, yeah, it's just.
- [48:46]
A
It's so goddamn stupid that that's what people are sharing. I'm like, there's so much else about that production. That's lovely.
- [48:52]
B
Yeah.
- [48:53]
A
And then some things that are weird, like Michael Arden has Mary Fagan come in on a swing twice. And then you're like, why, Michael? Why do that? You were doing such great work. You were doing such great work until now.
- [49:06]
B
What do you think about Ruthie Ed Miles, which I found, like, a bit of a shock that. Has the Beggar Woman ever gotten a nomination?
- [49:13]
A
No, she has not. Which is. Which was always my caveat for her getting nominated for this, because I was predicting her for a while, and then I saw it, and I was a little more on the fence about her getting nominated, because I don't. Honestly, I don't remember what I said last week on our final predictions. I know I said Bonnie. I said Betsy. And then I was pretty confident Ally Mozzie would get in because Kimberly Akimbo was really starting to push her towards the end. And unfortunately, that didn't happen. I say unfortunately because I think she does deserve to get nominated. Her performance is quite lovely in that show. I know I was pretty strong about Natasha and I do think I said Ruthie in the end. I would have. Again, there are people who I would have given it to, but I'm pretty sure I was strong on Ruthie. I don't love what Ruthie's doing in the show. It's a very insular beggar woman, which on one level I can respect. She's trying to be respectful of mental illness and trauma. Sure. But it just didn't make as large of an impression on me. Like, that's a role that you can really kind of just sink your teeth into. And for me, she never did. She's also doing a million accents, which might be her trying to sort of be split personality. Sure. The role, but. And I love her. I mean, her Lady Tiang is still burned in my brain from King and I, but I was just. And she's also really good on the Americans, y'. All, but I was a little disappointed in her. Beggar Woman again, on paper, happy she's a two time Tony nominee. But it's like the same thing for me. It's like the same thing with Lindsay Mendez winning for Carousel. I'm like, I'm so glad you have a Tony Award, Lindsay Mendez. I wish it was for another performance.
- [50:45]
B
Yeah, right, right. That's so true, though, for so many different actresses, whether it's Tonys or Oscars. I kind of like, I'm glad you have an award. It really should have been for a different project. Y. I want.
- [50:55]
A
I want to do an episode between now and the Tonys where we talk about, like, where we. Where we make a list of like 20 times the Tonys got it right, either for a performance or a production or a score. And no, not nothing. That's like super obvious, you know, not like, oh, Hamilton winning best musical. It's like, yeah, no dirt. But other times were like, you know, it didn't have to be this and they picked the right one. Like Julie White winning for Little Dog Laugh. I'm like, good on fucking you, Tony Ward. That's great. I love that.
- [51:23]
B
Good choice.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah, good choice. I love that win. Or, you know, like Bob Crowley winning set design for once. I'm like, yeah, you know what? Good on you. Or Michael Jurgen for lighting the piazza when everyone thought it was going to be Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I'm like, I know that's a big production, but Michael Jurgen's set for Light on the Piazza was poetry.
- [51:43]
B
Early days of YouTube, I would watch the Light in the Piazza Tony Awards performance, like, on repeat, over and over and over again. It was so good.
- [51:50]
A
It was so good that 2005 was a magical year for those four Tony musical nominations because they're all good in different ways. Spamalot, obviously, is the weakest of the bunch, but I don't think Spamalot's necessarily bad, and I think they all had good performances. We have Piazza, which was just A plus. Spelling Bee, which was a solid A.
- [52:09]
B
Right.
- [52:09]
A
Yeah. Dirty around scoundrels. And spamalot, solid Bs, which sounds like a dig. But when you think about other Tony performances that were like d minuses. Having two. Having two Bs and two as.
- [52:20]
B
Yeah.
- [52:20]
A
Yeah. I'm like, that's. How lucky were we? And then La Cage was okay. Three Penny Opera was the one where you were like, okay, move along. But those four musical.
- [52:28]
B
Speed this up.
- [52:28]
A
Yeah, those four musical performances were great. That's Piazza. God bless. And Ruth. He's coming back to do Piazza for encores. And we're looking forward to that. Yeah. Let's go into. Oh, actually, I do want to say, because you mentioned Alex Newell with featured actor. Featured actor in a musical. I'm not super upset about these five nominees. Kevin Cahoon, Justin Cooley, Kevin Jordan, Alex. Kevin. I'm actually pleased as Punch by because A. I just adore him. I think he's been. He's been around forever. He's so talented, so good. He's quite good in Shucked. He. You know, his character has maybe my least favorite running joke, which is just like he makes these analogy jokes that some are funny, some are not, and they always come out of nowhere. And that is part of the joke, is that they're always coming out of nowhere. And. But he makes it work. He and Gray Henson are very good at taking groaners and being like, land in this plane. Land in it. If I had to kick somebody out, I probably would kick out Jordan Donagha for Camelot. And I would put in either Stephen Boyer for Kimberly, Gaten for Sweeney, or Alex Grayson for Parade. Gun to my head, Stephen, but sure. But if we're like, okay, Matt, you can't bend over for Kimberly too much. I'd be like, okay, fine, I'll put in, you know, Gaten for Sweeney. He did a very nice job.
- [53:46]
B
Do you want to go through some of the categories and who we think are going to win?
- [53:50]
A
Sure. Well, let's do some plays first and then we'll. And let's go some categories. And I know play.
- [53:55]
B
This is the one where I have, like, hardly any good things to say other than I will say one thing. I'm pulling for Stephen McKinley Henderson to win because I love him so, so much and I want him to win an award.
- [54:08]
A
Well, he has a Tony.
- [54:10]
B
Oh, is he one already? Oh, I'm sorry.
- [54:12]
A
He won for Joe Turner's Come and Gone. You greedy. Okay, you. You are just so greedy. No, he, he's really. He was really great. In between Oversight and Crazy, My personal vote is for Corey Hawkins, the Top Dog Underdog. I want to say. Okay, so I had.
- [54:27]
B
Which is a good play.
- [54:28]
A
It's. It's a very good play. And this was a very good revival and those two were outstanding. I am very pleased that Yaya and Corey got in for Top Dog Underdog and I'm pleased they got on got in for revival because if you go on Goal Derby, nobody was predicting it for a long time. I'm like, why are we ignoring the best reviewed revival of the year or for plays anyway? But I had a conversation with someone yesterday when these nominations came out who was furious that Haran in Life of PI wasn't nominated. And I did originally predict him for nomination because he is very much at the forefront of that production. My issue has always been that that is just not a good play and he is the best performance in it, but there's also a lot of bad acting in it around him. This person's understanding. When I said, well, I am just glad that, you know, the two actors from Top Dog got in. She said, she, he. They said they were very good, but I would kick one of them out for Haran because he made that play and you could still do Top Dog Underdog with other actors and it would work. To which I said, that logic applies to any great play. You could do Death of a Salesman with a different actor and it would still work because it's a great play. It's not Corey and Yaya's fault that Top Dog Underdog is a Pulitzer Prize winning play that they are also very good in. So I, I don't like it when people are like, oh, you could do with another actor and it would work. I'm like, that's not the. The dig you think it is. You're complimenting the writing. That's so I don't. I just want to say that when people are like, oh, so and so is the reason why this show works. I'M like yes, because they're in a bad show. For example, Sean Hayes and Goodnight Oscar, which I is not a performance I loved very much. I thought Jesse Green's review was pretty spot on, if a little too mean spirited. It is, but Sean is, I think only okay. And what is not a good play. I know it has its fans. I just don't think it works very well.
- [56:15]
B
This is a dumb question. Is that an original play or is that a revival?
- [56:18]
A
It's an original play.
- [56:19]
B
Okay.
- [56:20]
A
Yeah, it's a transfer from the Goodman, I think either earlier this year or. No, from last year. Okay, so when you said you weren't gonna have much good to say about the plays, is it because you just don't know much about what's going on here or is it because you don't like any of this?
- [56:34]
B
No, it's just I haven't seen any performances so I, I can only go off of basically name recognition. I will tell you the ones that I know. But again, being on the social media and seeing things pop up into my feed, Leopoldstadt seems to be like the big one people keep talking about.
- [56:49]
A
Yeah.
- [56:50]
B
Feels like it's the front runner in my impressions, I guess of the people who've seen things. But I still, I keep hearing things about Fat Ham all the time and when I read the plots enough, like I really want to see this. This sounds like really interesting stuff. And an Ain't no Mo, that's basically, that's the three that I keep hearing things about. And other than the revivals, like I, I know A Doll's House, I know Top Dog, Underdog, but have not seen the performances inside of those plays.
- [57:19]
A
Sure, yeah, Ain't no Mo got a lot of social media coverage and in fact I would argue Ain't no More. And K Pop's nominations this year might be the only example where like social media support helps those shows. I'm totally okay with K Pop getting a score nomination. Choreography a little less so. But you know, it's again one of those like, what are you going to do? There's not a lot of nominations and it's not like the choreography is bad, it's just, it's. I thought it was not as tight as it could have been, especially for something like the genre of K Pop where super tight military like choreography is part of their, their identity. So like there should be not a foot out of place here. But in terms of plays, Ain't no Mo has a lot of support. I, I am not as in love with that play. As a lot of other people are. I think it's very intelligent and makes a lot of interesting points, but I do think it's a little too long. I think every sketch in it goes on about two minutes too long, but there is a lot of good in there. I am thrilled for Chris Crystal, Lucas Perry, who did a lovely job. I'm even happy for Jordan Cooper who does a. Who did a very good job as Peaches. I'm glad they got a costume nomination. I was, I was. I know I predicted it and was gunning for that costume nomination. Same thing with Fatham. Of the five nominees, I'm a little upset Prima Facie didn't get in because I do think that is a very strong play but it got nominated for a bunch of other stuff. So I'm not going to complain too much.
- [58:41]
B
I do think point out too. I mean, no one needs to get on here and say, like, you know what, Audra McDonald, good actress. But this does like cement her status as basically being like one of the best of all time. Because I think this is her 10th nomination, which ties her for most nominations for an actress of all time. So one more and she'll be the most nominated actress is what I think. I heard that.
- [59:07]
A
I. I look forward to that one then whatever that may be better.
- [59:11]
B
She's going to get nominated 11th time.
- [59:13]
A
Absolutely. She just has to come back on stage. It's when whatever it is, Ohio State Murders did not do it for me. But I'm glad she got nominated. I'm also. I. Okay. I predicted Laura linney for summer 1976, but I do remember thinking to myself, if I were picking the nominee, I would put in Jessica Hecht over Laura. But I think it's going to be Laura. And then when Jessica Hecht got in, I was like, oh, you know what? Please just punch about that. I don't. I didn't love summer 1976. It's just. It's a chardonnay of a play. But the two of them do a nice job and I think Jessica has a lot of meat that she works into. Leah Polstadt I do think will still win. Of these five, only Leah Polished and Fat Ham are running and I think Fatham is due to close before Leah Polstadt. And Leopoldshad also has the whole it's the last Tom Stoppard. It's actually quite good. It's relevant. It's run this long. It's very prestigious. Fat Ham has the Pulitzer behind it. Great reviews. I would vote for Fat Ham myself, but I Just don't know if that'll happen. I would like. I would like it to. I wouldn't be mad about either of them winning, but that is where I'm seeing Revival will play. It's Piano Lesson, Doll's House, sign in Sydney, Bruste's window and Top Dog Underdog. Not super mad. I would put in Death of a Salesman in over Piano Lesson. I did not love this revival of Salesman, but I liked it more than Piano Lesson. I would probably vote for Top Dog Underdog for Revival, but I think it could go to Doll's House and I wouldn't be mad about it. I liked this production a lot and I didn't think I would Kyle because it gave me Iwo Van Hoffe vibes heading in and I was like, God, we all know how much I would like him to just get decapitated. And then I saw it. I was like, this is fucking compelling. I am finding this quite enjoyable.
- [60:56]
B
I've heard other people have really liked this version of A Doll's House too. So it seems like people are enjoying it.
- [61:01]
A
Yeah. I was the. The things I was super pumped that they got nominated for. I knew they would get a directing nomination. It is a very directly play. I was thrilled as all get out that they got nominated for lighting design of which we have seven nominees.
- [61:14]
B
I know, I saw that. It's like. That's what I mean. It's like, okay, well.
- [61:17]
A
Yeah. And honestly, none of them I would kick out of bed. These are all worthy nominations for lighting design. Yeah.
- [61:25]
B
Best orgy. Good lighting. That's what you.
- [61:27]
A
Yeah, good. Best. The orgy of the season is lighting design of a play and we are here for it. I'm also trying to think landing design of a musical. Is there any that I would kick out? I would probably kick out Natasha Cats for Some like it Hot. I love Cats. But her lighting in that is just okay, right? That, that, that could be five. It doesn't need to be six. But I was also thrilled that they got nominated for supporting actor for. I never know how to say his name, but it's. It's Arian Moyed. Is that how you say his name? He plays Torvald. He plays Torvald in this production and he's so good. So I'm glad he got in. I would have probably put in oak instead of Samuel L. Jackson for Piano Lesson. I also. Yeah. Or honestly Billy Eugene Jones for Fat Ham who was so great and I wish she got nominated but Nikki Crawford got nominated for Fat Ham and that made Me happy. So did Miriam Silverman for Sign and Sidney Bruste's Window. That performance was the best performance inside in Sydney Brustein's Window. People came for mother and father, Oscar and Rachel and they left talking about Aunt Miriam and we're thrilled about it.
- [62:34]
B
How about this Cost of Living? What were your thoughts on Cost of Living?
- [62:38]
A
Cost of Living is interesting because I did not love it. I recognized it was good. It's. There's a lot of good writing in there. The acting was very strong. It was very intense and personable. I just wasn't super engaged with it. And that is not anyone's fault other than just like the chemistry was off for me in that show. So I'm not upset about any of its nominations. And again I mentioned before, like it's almost impossible for a Pulitzer winner to get snubbed at Best Play if it's eligible. I think it's happened once, once in the entire history of the Tony Awards and acting. I mean, I probably would have taken out Kara Young. I would have kept Katie Sullivan. I had a listener who was very insistent that Katie would get nominated, which I thought was definitely a possibility. Again, it's easier for closed shows to get nominated for acting and other stuff when it's a play rather than a musical. I was surprised at David Zayas getting nominated for Cost of Living. I didn't think he was fantastic in that show. But it's not a nomination. I begrudge him in any way and I'm a little surprised.
- [63:55]
B
There's a few categories here where the same person is nominated twice. So you have best costume design of a play where Emilio Sosa is nominated for Ain't no More, Ain't no Mo and Goodnight Oscar. And then Scott Pask is nominated for Shucked and Sunlik at hot and best scenic design of a Musical. And Natasha Katz is Somebody Get Hot and Sweeney Todd for Best lighting design in a musical. Do any of those people actually, do you think win? Oh, actually. And Ben and Max Ringham for Doll's House and Prima Facie for Best Sound Design. Jennifer Weber and Juliet and K Pop for best choreography. So does that increase their chance or you think they go home empty handed even though they're nominated twice?
- [64:35]
A
Each category is different. I think. Yeah, I think Jennifer Webber isn't necessarily canceling herself out so much as that is between Stroman and Nicola. I don't know who I'd vote for. I have issues with both of those shows choreography. I probably would give it to Stroman overall because she has a better point of view with her choreo than Nicola does. For me, in my life on this journey, sound design of a play, I would give it to Ben and Max Ringham for Doll's House just because the sound design was very important and pivotal to the success of that production. They might cancel themselves out for that because Prima Facie is a very similar situation where the sound design is important but also, like, I wouldn't know who they would give it to. Maybe Life of PI, maybe Christmas Carol. But yeah, I don't think so. Natasha Katz, I think is just gonna win for Sweeney Todd. The lighting in that show is, is the reason that production design comes together. Emilio Sosa, I, I don't think he's going to cancel himself out because I think Brigitte, Brigitte and Leopoldstadt's going to win just because it's covering Vienna in over like the course of 80 years. So that's costume up the butt. Unless because the puppets for Life of PI are considered part of the costumes, that might do it for them, which I. Although maybe not, because there might. I feel like there's some backlash about that right now about the puppets being considered eligible with the costumes because they're not costumes.
- [66:05]
B
Yeah, that's a weird. That's a weird conflation.
- [66:08]
A
Yeah, the puppets are not being worn by the actors. They're. The actors are using them to give a performance. They're. They're an extension of themselves. I'm glad Emilio didn't get nominated for Sweeney Todd though, because those are the cleanest London costumes in the industrial age I've ever seen. And everyone is middle class. I actually, when I finally saw Goodnight Oscar, I thought to myself, because Emily Bergle has this outfit, it's like her dress matches her coat in a way that's very chic. And I was like, huh, I'm not mad about this outfit. Like, maybe what, what if I nominated the Good Night Oscar for costumes? But it's sort of how I felt about Sign and Sydney Bruce's window, as well as Miriam Silverman has outfits that I'm like, very well curated. Love, love the fashion. So when he got nominated, I was like, I know why he got nominated. It's because Emily Bergle's dress matches the inside of her coat. And that is very 50s Chicago.
- [67:03]
B
He understood the assignment.
- [67:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, he understood the assignment. I'm glad Fat Ham got nominated though, for costumes. That those are some well curated costumes and I'm glad Parade got nominated because those costumes aren't showy, but they are Very appropriate to the production. Where were the other ones? Oh, Scott pass for shucked and stumbling it hot. He's not going to cancel himself out because that's Beowulf boards to lose for New York. New York. It's just the most set of the year and 90% of it is very beautiful. So here we are. Yeah. So we talked about some of the. Of the play stuff and I. There's not much else to discuss, I guess featured actors.
- [67:35]
B
I will say this though, this is. I know it would make the show longer. I totally understand why they don't do it this way. I would prefer and love if the Tony Awards did have a scene or something like a three minute segment from the play that they could show a just as a calling card. So if they are still running, people are like, oh yeah, I saw that. I can go and see it. But this gives you a better sense of what they're talking about.
- [67:59]
A
Yeah, well this is part of the reason why plays are not. Don't get as much love. Why they can't really build up momentum in the Broadway season anymore. The Tonys do them so dirty and they don't give them the spotlight they deserve. And sure, it's less exciting sometimes to see a scene from a play out of context than a musical number out of context, but they used to do scene work on the Tony Awards. You can watch Joan Allen and Peter Friedman do Heidi Chronicles or Mary Louise Parker in Prelude to a Kiss. And like sometimes they work really well. The James Earl Jones scene from Fences is incredible and I'm so glad it's preserved on the Tonys. And I don't know, like I, the, the Tonys are always just grasping at straws on how to get more viewers. And it's same thing with the Oscars. And I'm like, you're never going to appeal to 40 million people, so why don't you just do your damnedest to appeal to the nerds who tune in every year and really show us what, what we want to see. And there are people who watch the Tonys from out of town and they, and they come into New York once a year and they watch the Tony to get an idea of what they should see. People can't begrudge that. Like people aren't buying tickets to plays if the Tonys aren't properly showing them. And so I just want them to do it and I don't know what it's gonna take. Like just it stop trying to be the MTV Movie Awards and just be for the nerds. Like, show us. They used to have these montages about design. There's like, the 2020 awards. They have these segments on. On design, and they show you the sets and the lighting, the costumes while the designers talk about them and how the work that goes into them and what makes them effective. And it's so cool. And it gets to show you also those shows in their natural habitats, not just at Radio City Music hall or, you know, United palace or whatever it's called. Yeah.
- [69:41]
B
Or even, like, showing how they made different costumes. Right. Like, this is what we observe. This is how we researched it. This is what we. Yeah. How we came to the design in and of itself.
- [69:51]
A
Yeah.
- [69:51]
B
I just find that stuff fascinating anyways, I just want to learn about it.
- [69:54]
A
People are like, oh, do you think they're gonna mention Phantom in any way? Are they gonna do a performance for Phantom? It would be sacrilege if they didn't. And I'm like, you know what? I would rather they do than three minutes dedicated to the fact that Phantom closed is three minutes dedicated to the people nominated this year who don't get to get win their awards on air. Show how the costume designs of Fat Ham and Good Night Oscar and so on and so forth, like, are important and what. And the work that goes into them and what makes them so effective. Show us two minutes of Leopoldstadt. So people who are on the fence about seeing it get excited about a play. Again, anything else? If you aren't nominated for musical, don't perform. I'm sorry, but get the out of. Yeah, get the out of my Tonys. I don't care.
- [70:40]
B
I will call my shot here, though. For this year's telecast, I am gonna guarantee that at some point a chandelier is gonna fall or they're gonna make.
- [70:50]
A
A joke about a chandelier.
- [70:51]
B
They're making a joke about a chandelier falling. But that's. Pay me money.
- [70:57]
A
Yeah, pay Kyle money. Guys, I. It's. That's not a bad idea, Kyle. It's more just like, anytime the Tonys do anything kitschy, I'm like, go yourself. But I digress. Okay, let's look into some of these categories and do some immediate predictions. Best play, Kyle.
- [71:13]
B
Oh, I'm gonna pick Leopoldstadt. That would. That would be who I pick.
- [71:16]
A
Yeah, that's. That is my prediction as well. Although I would vote for that ham. Now I'm gonna go further down the line and go all the way to sound design of a musical. What you got?
- [71:28]
B
Okay, let me take a look at sound design. Sound design of a musical. So, again, this is hard. I'm going to go off by something that you've said so that doesn't have great sound design. I don't know. I feel like this is going to be where New York, New York gets some of its awards. Maybe. I don't know. That's probably who I'd pick for sound design.
- [71:52]
A
Yeah, I would probably pick. I probably would pick New York, New York as well. That they. That balance is really strong that are. That are and Juliet. But I think, yeah, I see a world where New York, New York walks away with like three or four Tonys, all under the radar stuff. So we'll see. And on that note, Orchestrations.
- [72:12]
B
Okay, so I actually put this into my little document here. So Orchestrations. This is. Oh, this was my bold one. Again. I'm doing this based off of literally one song performed on Good Morning America. I think New York, New York might win best orchestrations as well, with Kimberly Akimbo being like, my direct, like, competitor in this category. But I'm edging over to Newark, New York, because that orchestra sounded phenomenal, at least on Good Morning America.
- [72:41]
A
Yeah, a lot of times orchestrations will go to the show that has also won best score. But. Okay, but, but, but, but, but, but that has yet to happen for Janine. The only. The only Janine show to win Orchestrations was Millie, and she did not win score for that. But it's the. The caveat to that is when a production does something very different with the music. So, for example, girl from the north country winning Orchestrations was doing Bob Dylan, but in sort of a 1920s, 1930s radio broadcast kind of way, which could help and Juliet. But I do think it's going to be New York, New York, which is a similar vibe, too. I mean, I'm getting a lot of 2015 vibes from this season because we've got another Janine de Sori show that I think is going to essentially win like, five Tony's above the board, including best musical opposite a Kander and EB show opposite an original comedy musical that had a lot of buzz from previews that's going to win a featured performer.
- [73:41]
B
Award for Deja Vu.
- [73:43]
A
Dutch Deja Vu. We've got a Lincoln center revival, a Roundabout revival. We've got all this stuff. But I think New York, New York is sort of like an American in Paris situation where I do think it's going to win. I think it's going to win sound. I think it's going to win Orchestrations. I think it's going to win choreography, and I think it's going to win set, maybe lighting as well, but I would probably give that to Sweeney. Okay. And on that note, choreography. I have New York, New York. I have some people who think it's going to be something Like It Hot that Casey Nicholas finally going to get it as sort of like the Susan Lucci, like. Okay, finally. Here you go. You did it. Now, can you stop doing backflips for every show? But I don't know. There's. There is a big production number on construction beams that I think will clinch it for Stroh.
- [74:31]
B
Yeah, it's so hard. Like, I love Susan Stroman a lot. I. I am predicting Casey Nicola, though, for Something Like It Hot. I. I feel like some Like It Hot. I'm not picking it because it has the most nominations. I feel that it just has more support than New York, New York does. So they'll go New York, New York for, like, okay, it's undeniable for some of this stuff, like scenic design or something like that. But we're gonna throw it to Sunlight Hot for the rest of this stuff.
- [74:59]
A
Yeah. There are some categories where I'm like, this could go either way. It could go New York, New York. It could go Sunlight Hutt. I'm still gonna predict New York, New York, but I might change my tune in a few weeks. That's the beauty of this series. As we get closer and closer to June. Sound design of a play. I am gonna say Doll's House with a possible upset of Prima Facie.
- [75:25]
B
You know, just to be a wild card here. I'll do A Christmas Carol just for fun.
- [75:31]
A
We love Wild cards. And honestly, could happen. They're the last production of A Christmas Carol came in and really up for us. All right, let's do best score. I'm gonna say Kimberly with an upset from Some Like It Hot.
- [75:45]
B
I know the exact way I put it on in my notes here, too.
- [75:49]
A
I just don't see it as that.
- [75:50]
B
I. I mean, I. I've listened to all these. I. I know I'm a little bit. I don't know. I have biases of myself of what I like to listen to. Listen to all these nominated scores. I don't understand how you wouldn't go with. With Kimberly Akimbo, personally.
- [76:09]
A
I mean, that's the problem with art and its subjectivity, isn't it, Kyle? Because I'm listening to Kimberly Kimbo going like, I'm sorry. No. This score has bops. These lyrics are incredible. They're they are insightful and funny and help develop the characters. It's. I'm like, what are we doing here? This is exactly what a score should do.
- [76:27]
B
I was listening to the Kimberly Akimbo score, now on repeat, basically, for the last couple of weeks. And my claim to fame this past week is I made a tweet, so I'm basically famous. And I says, like, I'm very close to turning this into a Kimberly Akimbo fan account, which then got liked by Bonnie Milligan. So basically, I'm part of the. I'm part of the. The.
- [76:50]
A
The.
- [76:50]
B
The cast and crew of Kimberly Akimbo.
- [76:53]
A
You're on the payroll now. Yeah. The things, like, I don't know, when I go with my gut on something of not only what I like, but also what I think other people like, it tends to work out for me. So while I really loved the score of Strange Loop, I recognized that not everyone was on board with it. And I was like, well, you know, if it's got. While I think Strange Loop is the better musical and more, you know, fascinating. If I had to go with my gut on this, I think, like, six could really take it. And while I think there's a world where some Like It Hot could beat Kimberly, I am not as confident about it. The other thing I just want to say is because Kimberly has eight Tony nominations, which is very strong, I would have have liked them to get 10. I would have liked them to get sound design and another featured actress for Ally. It having the least nominations of all the best musical contenders this season, if. If only by one for three of them does kind of now put it back in the underdog narrative for some people, which could give it a lot more support going in rather than the confidence of, oh, this thing thinking that it's got itself, you know, as the one to beat. I know that there's a lot of love for it. I know there's a lot of people who do think it's a luck, but there is also a bit of a narrative of, like, well, there are some show. Your shows out there that could really pick up steam. So now's the time to really throw in the love for Kimberly. So I. I feel like there's a world where Kimberly just comes out with five. Like, I think it could be a band's visit situation where, right, SpongeBob and Mean Girls have more nominations, they're more popular, but this has the critical love. This has a lot of community love, and it's sort of a bit of rebuttal of like, yeah, something like It Hot is fun. Yeah. You know, New York, New York is big and Taurus might like it and Juliet is making a lot of money, but. Or not a lot of money. It's making some money. But like, we want to reward the people who made something special and, and quiet that is powerful. And I think all. And if Kimberly won those awards, I think it would help make it a small financial success. Not a, not a big, you know, Hamilton, but like a gentleman's guide or fun home where like it runs for a year and a half, makes its money back, goes on the road, calls it a day.
- [79:00]
B
Okay. Does David Lindsay, a bear, have a Tony?
- [79:03]
A
He does not. He has a Pulitzer.
- [79:04]
B
See, that's the thing. I think that there might be some people like, we should give him at least one for this year.
- [79:10]
A
Well, that's also why I know why I'm very confident it's going to win book. There are some people who have tried to say it could go to any of them. But New York, New York, I have a Tony voter friend who's very big on Angela yet, and I will not begrudge him that. But I do think Kimberly's book is objectively better. Kimberly is the best libretto of these five that I'm looking at right now.
- [79:31]
B
I think this too, for talking about best book. I went back and forth with this. I ultimately am predicting some like his hot wins best book as well. And only because. And maybe I'm over inflating the backlash that was coming out before it debuted into previews, but everyone was kind of like, oh my gosh, they're not going to handle this well. There's no way that they're going to be able to delicately talk about, you know, cross dressing in a 2023 in the year 2023. And the fact that it's like, fine, I think is better than like the disaster some people were predicting. So I wonder know if that might like, swing some people to be like, well, it could have been worse.
- [80:12]
A
Yeah, I mean, listen, this is where I'm gonna now kind of contradict myself. There is some social media backlash on Some Like It Hot and how they treat the gender roles of that show, but not loud enough for it to really make any kind of impact. And yeah, I think there is the element, like, it could, it could have been worse. And it is different enough from the movie that you don't have. You can't say like, oh, it's a copy paste job. But I don't know, like, I. For me, the book is Just sort of like, fine. It's kind of funny. Not funny enough. It. I. And I do think they really botch the role of Sugar, which is enough for me to say, no, if your female lead is not interesting, you don't get to win best Book. Same. And it's my. Again, my issue with and Juliet, I'm like, if Juliet is my least interested character, I don't want to give you book. And Shucked is cute, but shucked is a two hour musical that could be 90 minutes.
- [81:13]
B
Yeah. This is really what everyone has come out and said. Like, I loved, like, I had a great time. I laughed a lot. It's like 30, 35 minutes too long.
- [81:21]
A
Yeah, it's. I know. Like, part of the charm of it is that it's a ten jokes a minute. You could cut half of them and wouldn't lose anything. And in fact, to make it all go faster, which would be great, I would give it to David. I think. I do think he's gonna win both if there is an upset. Yeah, I do think it's Some Like It Hot, but I don't know. No, again, like we were talking about this a second ago. There is a support for that show and people who've loved it have remained. Have remained fervent in that love, but they haven't been super vocal about it. And they're not like, no one is coming back and saying, like, you know what I saw three months ago and I can't stop think about what a great time I had. Something like that. It's more sort of like you have to remind them. And they go, yeah, I did have a good time.
- [82:04]
B
Oh, I did see that.
- [82:04]
A
Yeah, I did. But I think there's more. There's more sort of support for Jay's performance in that and possibly Casey winning choreography. But we'll see. Direction of musical. I am going to say Michael Arden with a possible upset of Jessica Stone just because she's the director of Kimberly Kimbo. Oh, this is the other thing I was going to say. If you are a Best Musical nominee and you want to win, you absolutely need to get nominated for Best Book. If you are eligible for Best Book and not nominated, you don't stand a goddamn chance.
- [82:37]
B
And the goodness Director though, too. Right? Because yeah, I did list some reconnaissance here. I did a very quick scan of the last 25 years and I could have overlooked something. But any Best Revival or Best Musical winner was at least nominated in the Best Director category.
- [82:55]
A
Yes. This is where. This is where I think this all comes in. Favor of Parade as well as Kimberly. So of our musical nominees, they're all nominated for book, but only some, like a hot shuck and Kimberly are nominated for director, which is why I don't think and Juliet or New York. New York will get in. So of of those three, I would say Kimberly still has the best shot, just because it has a lot of above the board love. But this is also where I think Parade is going to win revival now as well as director. Yeah. Because the best revival winner doesn't have to have a directing nomination. But it usually, it's. That's usually been the case with like two exceptions. And there has never been a revival of a musical winner that was closed. There was a moment where people thought it was going to be Follies and it didn't happen. There was a moment where everyone thought it was going to be Falsettos and it didn't happen. And that is why I don't think Lear will win. It's why I don't think into the woods will win and I don't think Julia or Ryan will win.
- [83:50]
B
You know, streaks are made to be broken. I will say this. I'm also predicting Parade to win best revival, possibly with the upstate of into the Woods. But that would be, again, breaking.
- [84:01]
A
Yeah.
- [84:02]
B
The one exception from the past 76 years.
- [84:05]
A
Yeah, it would be the one exception. I mean, there's. People were very big on it was that it was Sweeney versus Parade with like an impossible upset of into the Woods. And then when Sweeney didn't get a directing nomination, everyone's like, oh, I think that's the crack in the foundation.
- [84:18]
B
Yes.
- [84:19]
A
Oh, but Lear got nominated and yada, yada. I'm trying to think of the last time a revival that closed got nominated for best director. I'm sure it's happened. I just can't think because I know Lapine didn't get nominated for Falsettos, I'm pretty sure. And I know that what's His Face didn't get nominated for Follies, rightfully so. But I don't because I feel like it did happen at least once. Hun heard. Please. Let's see. No, no.
- [84:46]
B
Oklahom.
- [84:50]
A
Michael Arden for Spring Awakening.
- [84:52]
B
Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [84:53]
A
He's been nominated every time he's done a musical. Good on him. What else? Scott Ellis for the Mystery of Edwin Druid and, oh, Marsha Milgram, Dodge for Ragtime. So it's happened. It's. It has happened, definitely. And it, it is possible to get nominated for director of a revival and not Win or have your revival win. Anything else? Anything else? Anything else?
- [85:23]
B
Anything else? Anything else?
- [85:24]
A
Oh, I didn't know Christopher Ashley got nominated for Rocky Horror Show. Good for him. That's a good nomination. Tony's. You got that right.
- [85:30]
B
At least you got that right.
- [85:32]
A
Yeah, you got that one right. Anything else? Yeah, the only time I see. The only two times I can see revivals winning and not nominated for director were Annie get your gun in 99 and then La Cage in 2005. But those are also back when it was four nominees. If there were five, they probably would have gotten in. So, yeah, I think it. I do still think it's parades to lose. I. You know, I think that into the woods is nominations is its way of being like, you did great. We recognize you. Take these nominations and run with them to your next Friday. We see you.
- [86:11]
B
We honor you. We're not giving you the award.
- [86:14]
A
We see you, Joanna, but we're not stealing you, Joanna.
- [86:16]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [86:18]
A
Yes. Director of a play. I am going to say that this will be Patrick Marber for leopolstadt or Jamie Lloyd for A Doll's House, but I think Doll's House might end up being a little too divisive for voters. And usually it'll go for a revival or the best play winner. It's very rare that it goes to someone who isn't a part of either. And Life of PI is very directory, but I think the fact that it's not nominated for play or actor or score shows that there's not as much love for that production as people think. I think people get some tech stuff and that'll be it.
- [86:55]
B
I'm also going with Patrick Marver for the Upholstadt. I actually had as like my alternate Sahima Ali for Fat Ham, which I could see happening. Those two shows seem to be like neck and neck as far as, again, what people are talking about.
- [87:10]
A
Yeah, I would be happy with either win. I would also be happy with Jamie Lloyd. I really. I cannot stress enough, Kyle, how much Doll's House and did you marry it, Matt? Fine, I will. And then I'll leave it. Yeah, just like Nora. Oh, on that note, let's take a one more break. Billy, I'd beg to differ with you.
- [87:31]
B
How do you mean?
- [87:32]
A
You're the top. Yeah, you're an arrow collar. You're the top. You're a Coolidge dollar. You're the nimble tread of the feet. Torvald, we're back.
- [87:47]
B
Excellent.
- [87:47]
A
That was Doll's House. This is Doll's House, part Two, We're Laurie Metcalf now.
- [87:51]
B
Oh, my gosh. If only.
- [87:53]
A
Ah, if only. So.
- [87:56]
B
You want to know, like, my. I realized that this is such a first world problem. I was meant to be in New York City end of March of 2020. We all know what happened at the end of March in the year 2020.
- [88:10]
A
Sure do.
- [88:11]
B
I had tickets that were purchased where I was going to see Laurie Metcalf on stage with who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? And I will never see her perform that play. And it makes me very upset.
- [88:25]
A
I'm so sorry for your loss. You know, I mean, I was supposed to see it too, and it didn't end up happening.
- [88:30]
B
It's.
- [88:31]
A
It is quite terrible. But I mean, hopefully one day we'll get it again. I don't know. I'm. I'm a little upset I didn't get to see Krista Flockhart do it in California. She's not right for the role, but I admire. Not at all. But, yeah, sometimes it's fun to see a good actor in a role they're not right for. Try to make it work. You know, you're trying to. Yeah.
- [88:50]
B
He's like, pat their head. Like, you tried.
- [88:52]
A
Yeah. And, like, didn't do a bad job. Just not a natural fit. Speaking of which, let's do featured actor in a musical. I am gonna go on a limb here and say that Alex Newell's gonna win.
- [89:05]
B
I have Alex Newell, too. This is the thing. It's like, are they gonna give it based on basically one song? Yes, it is the one song. Independently owned. Is that what this is?
- [89:15]
A
Independently owned?
- [89:16]
B
Yeah, that I listened to twice in a row. It's like that frame. Like, I need to listen to that again.
- [89:21]
A
Yeah.
- [89:22]
B
And so I'm just curious. I think it.
- [89:24]
A
But that's. That's the defining. That's the defining trait, usually for a featured performance in a musical is that they have one song that is, like, their moment. And so, like, we have, like, Patty and Matt Doyle and company. We have Lauren Patton for Jagged little Pill, James Monroe Iglehart for Aladdin. Brad Oscar for Something Rotten. I'd argue, you know, Sara Ramirez for Spamalot. Granted, they had a lot of numbers in that show, but, like, the big one was Find your Grail. Although I think the moment that they won was for Diva's Lament, Let some gay Beth leavel for as we stumble Along. Like, there's the number that is there. I may be the feature performer, but I get a moment to shine. And of all the nominees in this category, Alex has that with independently owned.
- [90:09]
B
I think Kevin Delaquila has the other good shot. But yeah, I'm going with Alex.
- [90:13]
A
I mean, I think Kevin is so delightful and something like it hot. I wouldn't be mad if he won. The only person in this category, I. Not necessarily would be mad, but I'd be like, really? If they won is Jordan Donica. If. If Kevin won. If Justin. If either Kevin won or. Or if Justin Cooley won, I would not be mad at all. I think Justin is so charming in Kimberly Akimbo and has amazing chemistry with Vicki. Like, they just. They connect on a level that's amazing. But no, I do think this is Alex's to lose. It's a very strong category, but I think Alex is the one that comes out on top and Alex knows this, which is why Alex asked to be placed in this category as opposed to featured actress, which game recognized game. That.
- [90:52]
B
That's a hard category.
- [90:53]
A
Yeah. Alex was like, I have. They were like, alex, what. What category would you prefer to go in? And Alex like, oh, well, if I have the choice, I am going to go in here because papa could win here, and I respect that. So hard that sometimes you got to be a shark in this industry. Featured actress in a musical. I'm gonna say Bonnie. It's. I think this is Bonnie.
- [91:13]
B
I have Bonnie in there too, mostly because she liked the tweet I did, so I have to recognize.
- [91:19]
A
Absolutely.
- [91:20]
B
And Bitsy Wolf is the only other one. I said, like, that's a maybe for me. I'm not confident. Anyone else but Bonnie, to be honest.
- [91:27]
A
I think Betsy could win definitely. It's a performance, as I said, garners a lot of attention. And if they want to throw some love to and Juliet, that could be a good spot to do it. But I also just like. I mean, I see a world where and Juliet randomly gets like 3 tonys, like a sound design orchestrations and randomly choreo or something or like, book. And I also see world where it goes home empty handed, which I think very much could happen. I don't see a world where New York.
- [91:53]
B
I will say this. This is another, like, calling my shot moment.
- [91:56]
A
Huh.
- [91:57]
B
I do think Angelia has the best chance of having, like, the equivalent, like, the viral video moment that a lot of, like, younger theater fans are like, oh, I'm sharing this on Tick Tock and Twitter and. And elsewhere, just based on the demographic that they're, you know, getting into the theater.
- [92:14]
A
Sure.
- [92:14]
B
That's a. That's my guess.
- [92:16]
A
Yeah. But, like, The Tonys kind of hate the youth, rightfully so. They're very annoying. They're very annoying. But, you know, they're very loud, and they are not good at analyzing nuance in a piece. They need something to be black and white for a. For a generation that is very loud about the fluidity of gender and sexuality. They're very binary about art, and I find that it's good or bad. Fascinating. And it's good or bad. It's problematic or it's not. I'm like, okay, children, I can't wait till you experience some more life and learn that human beings are messy and complicated. Okay, we. Let's go back to a technical one. Scenic design of a play. Scenic design of a musical. Scenic design of a musical is pretty easy. It's New York, New York, Gone win.
- [92:57]
B
That's yes.
- [92:58]
A
Yeah.
- [92:59]
B
100 for play. I don't know. I mean, I. My. My gut says Life of PI just, again, based on photos and stuff and videos I've seen of it. That's not a very strong guess, though.
- [93:13]
A
Yeah, I'm gonna say Life of PI as well, with a possible upset for Christmas Carol. But I'm. I'm actually super pleased that Prima Facie got in for set as well as for lighting. But I'm gonna. Yeah, I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say Life of PI. Did we do, like. We did lighting design, right?
- [93:38]
B
Yes.
- [93:39]
A
Okay. And costume design. Do we do.
- [93:42]
B
Yeah, we need to do costumes, though.
- [93:44]
A
Oh. So Cosmos. I'm going to say Leopoldstadt again. The. The History of It All. Life of PI, possibly. Because now the puppets are in there. And. Yeah, you want to acknowledge that, but again, I think there might be backlash of sort of. That's Shenanigans. Cosmos out of a musical.
- [94:02]
B
I mean, I. Part of me thinks that this might go to Angelia as well, but I don't know. It's honestly between that in New York. New York, probably, and see, I think.
- [94:14]
A
It'S Some Like It Hot. But there we go. Ironically, though, and it all comes back to Sugar. I think the worst costumes of the show belong to Sugar, but they. They dress Jay Harrison Geese so well as Daphne, like, to the point where by the end of the show, you're like, oh, hello, New York fashion Runway. But, I mean, never doubt Greg Barnes. He gets in a lot. I. I believe he won. Yeah, he won for Josie Chaperone. He might have won for something else. His costumes, I think. One for Follies. You know, Susan Hillford, he does a lovely job for Parade, but Those costumes are not flashy. Camelot's costumes are okay. They're a little drab. But that whole production design is drab. K Pop. I'm very fun costume design. Good on them. Yeah. I think I would say it's between something in hot and Juliet. New York, New York has very lovely period appropriate costumes, but nothing that super pops.
- [95:02]
B
Okay.
- [95:04]
A
There are one too many rhinestones in some lake and hot for it not to get for it to go unnoticed. But I don't know. You could be right. It could end up going to New York, New York. Like, maybe New York, New York just ends up sweeping all three design categories. Who knows? There are not a lot.
- [95:18]
B
Stranger things have happened.
- [95:19]
A
Yeah, Stranger things have happened. Stranger things. Fun TV show. Yeah. So that's all the design, direction, choreo. Orchestrations. All right. Ooh. Okay. Featured actor in a play, featured actress in a musical. I am going to go on a limb here and say that Miriam Silverman will win for Sign in Sidney Brustein's Window. She and Nikki Crawford are the only performances still running, which is not necessarily a given for awarding someone. You can win if your show has closed, but if in order to win for your show being closed, you need a lot of momentum behind you, which is what I think Crystal Lucas Perry could do if she's and her team are smart enough in the upcoming couple of weeks that, like, we want to give a no mo something. And Crystal is our best bet for that. And she definitely, you know, is a. Is a favorite of the community. But I think there's something about Miriam Silverman and Silence and New Brustein's Windows. Again, it's one of those things where, like, when you see all the nominees, when you go out and you see them, you walk away from Sidney Brustein's window going, miriam Silverman's fucking baller. And it's a role that always gets nominated and has won in the past, so it could happen. And then for a featured actor in a play, I'm gonna say Brandon Uranoitz for Leopolstadt. That is. That is my hot take, I think.
- [96:34]
B
So I'm trying to see. Unless they really want to go, like, the Hollywood route, which sometimes they want to do, and they give it to Samuel Jackson, but. And I don't know if there's a groundswell behind him.
- [96:48]
A
I don't think there is. I don't think there's any groundswell behind that production in general other than Patti lupone saying it's gonna win everything, and then it's not now going to. All right.
- [97:00]
B
Every one of her predictions has always turned out to be true.
- [97:02]
A
Don't you predicted it again. Leading actress in a musical.
- [97:08]
B
Actress. Okay. I honestly think this is Victoria Clark. Still lose. Like, I just don't see. I just don't see anyone else. I. I have as. Like, the only one that I could see maybe doing, like, the upset is Annalee Ashford for Sweeney Todd. But I just. Again, I know there's a lot of people who are, like, really behind Emily Ashford, but there's just so many people who seem to be, like, not as taken with her. Mrs. Lovett. So I don't know. I think it's Victoria Clarke. Still lose.
- [97:37]
A
Yeah, same. This is where I'm gonna show off a little bit of my knowing people in the community card, guys. All the love I see for Annalee Ashford is purely from a fan base, not from the community. The love of Annalee Ashford in the community is, like, she's a nice person. Everyone loves her. She's a. Like, she is a. She is a genuinely kind person, as I understand it. And she is.
- [98:04]
B
She's not good. She's not bad. She's just nice.
- [98:06]
A
She's just nice. No, she's kind. Kind is different than nice. Y' all remember that as you walk on this path of life. But. And she's also very talented, and I. I had, like, given her some shade on this podcast in the past, and it's purely just because I think she is incredibly smart and incredibly talented. So I get disappointed when I see another with her where I'm like, I've seen you do this before, babe. Come on, let's do something new. And I think that her performance in Sweeney Todd is more successful than I anticipated, but it is still very much a lot of me seeing a lot of the same. And a lot of the people I've spoken to have said similar, that they liked her but didn't love her. And same thing with Josh. They liked him. Didn't love him. The three performances in this category that I have heard from people in the community of pure love are Vicky, Sara Bareilles, and Michaela Diamond. I think if anyone could upset Victoria, it's going to be Michaela. And that would have to come from such an overwhelming amount of love for Parade that they give it to her and to Ben. And I would vote for Ben, honestly.
- [99:04]
B
But I think, yeah, talk about nepotism all you want. Again, just by listening to that recording. He does give a great performance. Like, I can't deny that he gives a great Performance. Although I. I'm being a little bit bold in my best lead actor, where I'm predicting Jay Harrison guy winning, even though that is probably wrong.
- [99:25]
A
No, I don't think it's wrong. I think. I mean, first of all, it's among Jay, Josh, and Ben. I would not give it to Josh at all. I think Josh is singing that score beautifully. He has a couple of strong moments. He is not scary in the least, and he's not compelling in the least, which is, you know, I think a major failing of that production in general between Jay and Ben. I would give it to Ben. And I. I say that with, like, all the restraint in the world. The people who have been anti him in the show aren't like, oh, he's bad. They like him. They just go, oh, I see so much Evan Hansen, his performance, and I see what they are talking about. I disagree. He's doing a lot of the nervous energy of Evan Hansen, but it's a very different kind of nervous energy. It's more mature. First of all, he's playing a man, and it's centered and calmer. It's, you know, some. The stakes are higher for Leo Frank than they were for Evan Hansen. So his. His nervousness makes sense. Some people are saying, oh, it's Evan Hansen again. I'm like, that sounds like a you problem, Cynthia.
- [100:21]
B
Yeah, I don't know. I just. That's. I didn't get that from the recording. I mean, Ben Platt sounds like Ben Platt, but I didn't get the same energy from dear Evan Hansen.
- [100:29]
A
Yeah, it's also just. I don't know. Victoria's playing the lead of a new musical. The first time she's done that since Piazza. Talk about Beloved. She is a, you know, a major icon in this industry, has been working forever. She needs a second Tony Award in a sense that, like, who. How. If anyone needs it, it's her.
- [100:47]
B
I look forward to her winning because I want to hear all the homosexuals in the audience freak out. Yeah, I love when that happens.
- [100:53]
A
I don't think there's a single woman and leading actress in a musical where if they won, the homosexuals wouldn't freak out.
- [100:58]
B
Sure, sure.
- [100:59]
A
Like, Mickey Splains is gonna go insane if any of these women win. So it's the gays win no matter what the audience. Yeah, okay. I should say everyone who's a gay that's not me will win no matter what. If Victoria wins, I am thrilled. If Michaela wins, I will be disappointed because I just think it should be Victoria Michaela's the only one I could see beating her and is the only one I would be not throwing my shoe at if it's not Victoria. But, yeah, I'm gonna predict Jay as well for leading actor in a musical with a possible Ben upset. We say this like it's. What's the astrology or astronomy? We say it's like astronomy, like with a Ben uprising. Leading actor in a play.
- [101:41]
B
A waxing Victoria coming into our lives.
- [101:44]
A
Exactly. Leading actor in a play. I'm gonna say Sean Hayes.
- [101:46]
B
It's just. You think it's his.
- [101:49]
A
I do think it's his. It's not who I would vote for. It's not who I would vote. I would vote for Corey Hawkins, and I would have put Marcel Spears in here, honestly, over Sean or Wendell Pierce. But I have to recognize where the energy is, and it's on Sean. And he is the reason why people are seeing that play at all. It's why that play is on Broadway to begin with. And he has a lot of love. People are really into his performance. I was not one of them, but that's that. I also say leading actress in a play, the easiest prediction in the world. It's Jodie Comer and Prima Facie. There we are.
- [102:24]
B
I. What was I going to say? Yeah. So Corey Hawkins, I am predicting, is going to have a stellar year this year. I actually am going to predict he wins the Tony Award, and I think he is going to become a huge deal by the end of this year. Being in both a movie I'm very much looking forward to called the Last Voyage of the Demeter, which is a horror film about Dracula. Oh, I think he's gonna pop. But he's also in the Color Purple, so he might even get a Oscar nomination by the end of this year, too. So I think we're on the cusp of Corey Hawkins running having a really great year. That is my personal prediction.
- [103:03]
A
He's playing Harpo in Color Purple, right? Yeah. Yeah, I know. I love. I got. I love Corey. He's so talented. It's stupid if he won. Listen, talk about the gays going crazy. This gay would go crazy if he won.
- [103:17]
B
Right, Right.
- [103:18]
A
But, you know, I'm gonna. I'm still gonna predict Sean just because, you know, sometimes they don't get it. Right.
- [103:24]
B
Yeah, but they all go your way.
- [103:26]
A
Yeah. And listen, that's a hot take. I know a lot of people who are really big on Sean's performance, calling it a tour de force and whatnot, and that's their prerogative we already said revival of Musical parade. Revival of a play. I'm gonna predict Doll's House on this one.
- [103:40]
B
Yeah.
- [103:41]
A
Yeah.
- [103:42]
B
It's also this one before too in revival. Has it not?
- [103:44]
A
It did. And one for the Jan and Tear production. Last one musical. No, after all this, I'm gonna say New York. New York.
- [103:54]
B
I was gonna say. Of course it's all been leading here just by basically what we've been talking about. Looking at like history, other categories. It's coming down to Kimberly Akimbo Shocked or some like a hot. I think those are the only three that honestly have a shot at it. Shot A very long shot. Which means it's down to Kimberly or something like a hot. So I'm giving it Kimberly. I think there's gonna be more groundswell towards it.
- [104:18]
A
Yeah.
- [104:19]
B
Something I could do the upset. But I just see it going to Kimberly's way.
- [104:22]
A
It's also just when you think about it, with the Tony's for best musical in the last like 12 years.
- [104:28]
B
Yeah. They don't go for necessarily the one that's the most.
- [104:32]
A
Like they've often gone with the smaller show. Yeah, they've gone with the smaller show often. Like the only times they've gone with the big show is either when there have been no other options. So like Moulin Rouge winning because it's like what Jagged Little Pill, which is jukebox musical as well. Tina, which is like all big shows. Or you know, Hamilton, which is a. Was a Pulitzer winner by that point. Huge box office, critical success, like massive cultural moment. Like I'm trying to think other major. Like big musicals, Book of Mormon, but also like Book of Mormon. The thing about something like It Hot that it doesn't have. And I kind of said this before when talking about what could have be a relatively better competition for Kimberly and Juliet had better critical reception. And if Something Hot had better box office, they would be much more of a threat. But. And Juliet has the box office and Something Hot got the reviews. But Something Hot has been struggling since January and. And it's not the cultural hit that it needs to be to be hoping for. Yeah. Like. Because if you're gonna be the musical comedy entertainment and win the Tony, you gotta be the moment. And it hasn't been the moment. Not in the way that the Producers or Book of Mormon was.
- [105:47]
B
No. And Juliet has more of in the moment right now than I think sound like a hot does.
- [105:51]
A
Yeah.
- [105:52]
B
And Juliet, I would say this, if Angeli had had a better book by the sounds of it, at Least again, haven't seen it, but if it had a better book, I think it would be a much stronger threat in these categories.
- [106:04]
A
I mean, I know people who are voters who liked and Juliet, but mostly just because they thought it was a good time. Oh, it was smarter than I expected it to be. And you know, it could win and anything could win. Right. But and Juliet, it's not like necessarily respected. It's like it's. It is popular, it is well liked, it is doing well. But no one's like, you know what really kind of surprised me by how incredible it was, was and Juliet. The only people who've been saying that are the gays who love their soul cycle music. And that is not the moment. Like, and Juliet has not captured a cultural moment.
- [106:41]
B
No.
- [106:42]
A
The last jukebox musical to kind of really take everyone by surprise and be compelling in a way no one expected was Jersey Boys, which was a word of mouth hit like, came into New York no one was talking about. It opened and within a month became huge and was able to ride that to the Tonys. And Juliet is doing very well. But no one is really like, oh my God, it's the moment, it's the thing. And to be fair, neither really is Kimberly, but Kimberly is definitely going on the narrative of the little show that could. Which the Tonys are weak in the knees for. They love to be.
- [107:12]
B
It's a Fun Home situation.
- [107:14]
A
Yeah. And a gentleman's guy situation. Fun Home is a little different because Fun Home was doing well when they got nominated. Fun Home, you know, opened at the very end of the year and had the reviews and was selling well. And the Tony nominations came out pretty soon after that. So they could ride that momentum for a while. But if they didn't win, they would have closed by the fall for sure. And I. And I think the Tonys love to be like the. The organization that goes, we're going to give you the awards because we know, you know, you need it and we'd love to be useful.
- [107:47]
B
We'll give you at least another six months.
- [107:48]
A
Yeah, yeah. We don't want to adorn a show that doesn't need our love.
- [107:52]
B
Sure. Yeah.
- [107:54]
A
Yeah.
- [107:55]
B
So, yeah, I look forward to being wrong about everything.
- [107:58]
A
Absolutely everything I look forward to between Riverside and Crazy winning, New York, New York winning Sign and Sydney Brustein's Window winning and Camelot winning. You know.
- [108:09]
B
A bit of perversely I have. There is this moment again. I always use the Oscars as the example and this is a movie I like, but the Year Spotlight won Best Picture. And everyone's like, wait, what? This was not even in the conversation to win this. There's a bit of briskly. If, yes, they have, I don't know, Julie Andrews come out to give Best Musical and she's, like, shocked. Wait, what?
- [108:33]
A
Yeah, that's. There is something really fun about that, which I am not upset about. Anyway, the thing about the Tonys is, like, awards don't ultimately matter, and yet they also do. They help business, obviously, but also, just like, in terms of conversation, it's so much fun to talk about and gives us a template to go off of. Like, the only reason people still know about Two Gentlemen of Verona is because it won and beat Follies. And then that just leads to the conversation of, well, how could that have happened? And then that's a conversation of all, how good is Follies? And, like, what was it? Yeah, yeah. What was its perception at the time? And I. That's why I like the Tonys. And that's why no matter what wins, the conversation will be what it is in a year and that'll change.
- [109:13]
B
Any awards body gets things, quote, unquote, wrong or it's like. It's like, how did this win over that? But also, it is a snapshot in time. It's really hard to go back and be like, well, you know, this thing was happening and they wanted to reward, like, the one that made you feel good rather than the one that made you think that happens a lot, too. So.
- [109:30]
A
Oh, yeah. The. You know, when we talk about, like, the Great Depression or Vietnam or World War II, like those movies that win at the Oscars in those years, it's like, yeah, America needed levity. So it happened one night was very important to them.
- [109:43]
B
Yes.
- [109:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, no, I love it. Kyle, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on today.
- [109:49]
B
Great.
- [109:50]
A
Where can people find you if you want them to find you and anything you'd like to promote?
- [109:53]
B
The easiest way to find me is I'm at the Kyle Marshall on basically everything. So you can find me there's. And then if you like musical theater, I do host a show called Putting It Together. We are currently going through, or I should say it's both the music of Stephen Sondheim. So we're going show by show, song by song. We're currently in Sunday in the park with George and your very humble host, Matt Koblick is on next week's episode. So if you listen to that, then you can tune in. We're talking about everybody Loves Louis. Yep.
- [110:24]
A
And I. If I recall, I don't necessarily spill tea on my personal life, but I do express how that song was the right song for me to analyze because of my personal life.
- [110:35]
B
Exactly.
- [110:36]
A
Yeah. Oh, boy, what a fun time to be alive, Kyle. Yeah, no, that'll be next week because this episode comes out on Thursday, so it'll. It'll be in about six days when my episode comes out, so look forward to that, ladies and germs. If you want to follow me, I am on Instagram at Matt Hoplik. The usual spelling. If you like the podcast, a nice five star rating always helps us out with the algorithm. Or a nice little review. We haven't got any since the last episode, but that's okay because we got two great reviews in the last episode and so I was spoiled a bit. But as I said, y' all are really great at writing these reviews and just warming up my depressed, depressed heart. And April was a very tough month for me. I mean, 2023 has just been emotionally devastating in general. So doing the podcast has been nice and reading your reviews has always been a bright spot for me. So if you want to keep me from crying, by all means, Write me more 5 star reviews because Matt doesn't like crying and he's gonna have to.
- [111:28]
B
Pretty soon you're guilt tripping your audience into leaving reviews.
- [111:31]
A
So, yeah, keep me from crying, y'. All. And when we come back to the big move and we do significant other, I will just be sobbing from start to finish of that episode. So I will definitely need some reviews to read by then. Kyle, as you know, we close out every episode with a Broadway diva. Yeah, I'm trying to think who we should close out with today. Have we got 3 o'? Clock? We've done Victoria Clarke twice now. I think what we're gonna do, she hasn't been done yet and she's just nominated for her first Tony. We're gonna close out with Ms. Michaela Diamond. Yeah, especially since that cast recording is out. We can do some of her Leo in it. Yes. Thank you so much, guys. We'll see you next week. Have a great time.
- [112:08]
B
Bye.
- [112:15]
A
You could. You don't have the right to know a man that wise and good. He's a decenter man. He is an honest man. And you don't know.